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Beyond the Couch: Therapy in a Nutshell · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:05
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
• 0:07
  Mary: I'm your host, mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:13
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:20
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:29
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
• 0:34
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:35
  Mary: Hi and welcome to the show.
• 0:41
  Mary: The topic for today is something I had planned to talk about solo, but I got a gift.
• 0:51
  Mary: A fellow therapist, who I just met through social media, but who was close to me geographically, enthusiastically agreed to share the mic with me and discuss this very important topic, something we're both passionate about.
• 0:59
  Mary: Today, laura Smith, a fellow licensed professional counselor, and I will be talking about what we wish people knew about therapy.
• 1:07
  Mary: I think that often people have ideas about what therapy is or why other people go to therapy that might be a barrier for them to start their own therapy journey are often people that do traverse the sometimes daunting road of finding a therapist and talking with them a few times, only to pull back and stop attending sessions.
• 1:30
  Mary: Speaking as a therapist, this is a tough one, especially if I see a path forward for them that could bring life-changing insights.
• 1:37
  Mary: But to keep doing this work, you necessarily need to park those situations to the side, even though it can feel like reading a book only to find out that the last chapters are missing.
• 1:47
  Mary: If you've never had therapy and it seems like a mystery what exactly does happen in the office?
• 1:53
  Mary: Is it like the show shrinking?
• 1:55
  Mary: Does the client lay on the couch while the therapist sits behind them taking notes?
• 2:00
  Mary: Or is it like any number of movies where the therapist turns out to have a more serious mental health concern than the client?
• 2:07
  Mary: Or have you tried therapy and it felt unhelpful?
• 2:11
  Mary: Or you didn't connect with your therapist, or you even felt worse after a few sessions.
• 2:17
  Mary: Spoiler alert, that's common and we'll tell you why.
• 2:20
  Mary: All right, let me give you a quick intro of my guest today and we can talk therapy.
• 2:25
  Mary: Laura Smith is a former public school teacher, lover of yoga and a nature girl like me.
• 2:31
  Mary: She's a mom of two littles an eight-year-old daughter and a five-year-old son.
• 2:35
  Mary: She's also a reader and is passionate about the work she does with her clients.
• 2:39
  Mary: Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, laura.
• 2:43
  Laura: Thank you so much, Mary.
• 2:45
  Laura: I'm always so excited to sit down with fellow mental health professionals, and this is a topic that I just am so excited to talk more about with you today.
• 2:56
  Mary: Well, I'm excited too, and we have so many cool things to share, so let's jump in.
• 3:01
  Mary: I want to start with something that you and I discussed a little bit via email and I think it's huge.
• 3:08
  Mary: I think there's a misconception that only quote "crazy people go to a therapist.
• 3:14
  Mary: And I'm really strongly putting that word crazy in quotes, because here's the newsflash and I think I mentioned it on this show before All the best therapists I know, including you and me, have gone to therapists, absolutely Yep, and you know, I think it's what people should understand is there are levels of mental and emotional practitioners, just like medical professionals.
• 3:40
  Mary: So you're not going to go to the hospital for a common cold, but sometimes you need a specialist for certain issues.
• 3:46
  Mary: So sometimes there are situations that cause a more serious mental health diagnosis and in those cases there might be an admission to a facility and a team approach.
• 3:57
  Mary: But I think for most of our clients, and probably many people listening, there are issues that simply interfere with goals people have, like having a healthy relationship, effective parenting, adjusting to a new baby, advancing a career things that all of us struggle with.
• 4:15
  Mary: They are not things that are too insignificant to go to therapy.
• 4:20
  Mary: So what are your thoughts on that?
• 4:23
  Laura: Yes, you know I'm a firm believer in that therapy is for everyone and you know it's something that does get brought up in in sessions from time to time and you know I see clients five and older.
• 4:37
  Laura: You know a lot of m y younger clients will kind of say you know, I don't know why I'm here or what's wrong with me, and I love talking about it because I can tell these clients of mine that nothing's wrong with them and nothing is broken and this is just a journey to finding out our best selves and really just learning about ourselves and having a little bit of help on the journey.
• 5:07
  Mary: Well, I love that.
• 5:08
  Mary: You said that people come in and they say they don't know why they're there.
• 5:13
  Mary: And you know it can sound like well, how can you not know why?
• 5:16
  Mary: Don't you know why you go to the doctor?
• 5:17
  Mary: But when you go to the doctor you just know you don't feel good, you don't always know what it is right, yep, yep.
• 5:25
  Mary: So I think we help them tease that out.
• 5:30
  Mary: So that's not something that really ended up on sort of our list of topics today, but I think you've brought up a really good point that people may hesitate to go because they feel like they have to go in there and be clear about what's wrong.
• 5:49
  Laura: Absolutely.
• 5:49
  Laura: And you know I tell people all the time you can just show up and the way we'll we'll kind of appear, you know we will help you find what it is that you're looking for or seeking.
• 6:02
  Laura: You don't have to have a clear plan always.
• 6:06
  Laura: And you know, for me I love to share, you know, with my clients that there have been times in my life that I've I've been in therapy.
• 6:14
  Laura: I will probably.
• 6:16
  Laura: I love therapy.
• 6:18
  Laura: I think therapy is for everyone.
• 6:19
  Laura: You know, recently I was even thinking, you know, maybe I'll get back into therapy for balancing, you know, motherhood and owning a private practice, because really I've just experienced the benefits of therapy firsthand and seeing how really just transformative it can be, you know, to our lives.
• 6:50
  Mary: Great point, and I think that brings up this idea that people may believe that the therapist is an expert.
• 6:52
  Mary: And you know, I was trained way longer time ago than you were, so I've been doing this work for over three decades and I know when I started there was sort of more this idea that you're trained as the expert, and I think that's changing.
• 7:07
  Mary: I think thankfully that's changing.
• 7:09
  Mary: I think the client should be empowered to.
• 7:13
  Mary: You know they have a voice and so one of the things that I think is beautiful about counseling and therapy, I believe it's an art, because you and I know that the same client could walk into either of our offices and that session is going to go in a different direction, absolutely yeah.
• 7:32
  Laura: Totally different, totally different experience, I think that's beautiful about that too.
• 7:37
  Laura: I agree and I think something you know we also wanted to talk about is clients understanding that and knowing that.
• 7:45
  Laura: Something I like to say sometimes in session is not everybody is for everybody Finding a therapist that feels like a good fit and you know, that feels like they can really do some good work with.
• 7:57
  Mary: Yeah, very important.
• 7:59
  Mary: I love the idea of the empowerment of a client.
• 8:03
  Mary: I love the idea of the empowerment of a client and often when you go to therapy, you're typically not feeling at the top of your game, so finding that confidence can be hard, but it's important, I think, for everyone to know that it's their journey and so, while, yes, I think a lot of times we need to figure out a path through, and we are educators and we are listeners and all of those things, I think of it more as a partnership.
• 8:35
  Mary: Yeah, yes, so being able to speak up like if you, if someone goes in and this is not every therapist is good yeah, that is true too.
• 8:51
  Mary: Yeah, yeah, just like any profession you know exactly so you can have somebody put a roof on and it leaks, or you can have, you know, and sometimes this is very, very personal.
• 9:04
  Mary: So I know I've gone to medical doctors and I've just had a feeling not, this doesn't even mean they weren't good at their craft, but if you don't feel comfortable, yeah, yeah.
• 9:17
  Mary: Yeah.
• 9:18
  Laura: Yeah, yeah, it's going to be hard to open up and be vulnerable and all of that.
• 9:23
  Laura: And knowing that it doesn't mean that something is wrong with you.
• 9:28
  Laura: You know, even bringing up the medical professionals, you know I'll have clients tell me, well, I just didn't, I didn't feel right or I didn't feel comfortable, and that's okay.
• 9:36
  Laura: That just means that you know, maybe you need to keep going on your journey, look for someone else, somebody that you do connect with.
• 9:44
  Laura: And the same thing for therapists and I feel like good therapists and you know therapists that are working to help people.
• 9:51
  Laura: You know, be them best, their best selves, and confident is we.
• 9:56
  Laura: We want to empower you and we want to know if something isn't working and we aren't offended.
• 10:01
  Laura: If you decide to, you know, start working with someone else or if you need a little something, that that isn't what we offer Because, like you said, it is just so different and personal and I love how you called it an art.
• 10:14
  Laura: That's beautiful.
• 10:15
  Mary: Yeah, yeah, and it's also, I think, important and very, very difficult for the client to be able to recognize.
• 10:26
  Mary: Are they uncomfortable with the process?
• 10:30
  Mary: Because it is hard to you know.
• 10:33
  Mary: I call it the junk drawer.
• 10:35
  Mary: We're going to talk about this more, but we all have a junk drawer right when we throw the stuff we don't know what to do with, and someday it gets too full and when you open it you're like holy crap, like look at all this stuff.
• 10:48
  Mary: So that's sort of what therapy is like, so being able to differentiate between is it just my discomfort with sharing or is it a discomfort with the clinician?
• 11:01
  Laura: Sure, sure, I love that example too of the junk drawer.
• 11:06
  Laura: You know something I give one to my clients.
• 11:09
  Laura: I'll probably borrow the junk drawer too, but you know they'll come in and they'll kind of talk about how uncomfortable it is, and I think something we touched on by email was feeling that things sometimes feel a little bit worse before they get better.
• 11:23
  Laura: An example I like to give my clients is that they have an old injury that they have ignored or overcompensated for or use substances or other distractions to cope with.
• 11:35
  Laura: You know, when they decide to go to physical therapy and start working on this injury, it's going to hurt, it's not going to feel good and I think sometimes that can.
• 11:43
  Laura: That can help clients, especially because lots of us do have physical injuries.
• 11:47
  Laura: We know what that's like, but it can feel very uncomfortable.
• 11:51
  Laura: Digging some of this up and because a lot of it is stuff that we do, we avoid until we can't anymore, just like the junk drawer.
• 11:59
  Mary: Yeah, and this might be hard to describe on an audio show, but at one point I saw a meme of a China cabinet, so the cabinet where the doors are glass in the front so you can see the plates inside, and a stack of plates had fallen so that they were wedged between the shelf and the door.
• 12:22
  Mary: So you knew if you opened those doors the plates were going to fall and break.
• 12:26
  Mary: And I feel like so many of us are that china cabinet that our stack has fallen and we're like if I open this freaking door, it's going to break.
• 12:39
  Mary: And you know what the saying you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet To get to beauty.
• 12:45
  Mary: Sometimes there's mess and that is very, very common in therapy.
• 12:52
  Laura: Yes, Yep, and we're here to kind of help you clean up that china cabinet and reorganize and pick up the pieces with you and we're in the mess with you, and I think that's why this work is just so special, because people trust us to be alongside them in some of those moments where everything is crashing down.
• 13:13
  Laura: But we're with them and that connection is is just a valuable piece, which is why it's again why it's so important.
• 13:21
  Mary: Well and I think you mentioned this and I want to highlight it much more that often when you go to therapy, things do feel worse before they feel better, and we can liken it to a physical injury.
• 13:34
  Mary: When you start to really work a muscle that you haven't because it's weak, it's going to hurt, and emotional pain for a lot of people is much more intolerable than physical pain.
• 13:47
  Mary: So I think being able to acknowledge that you know, just for a client to say you know what I want to quit, and then we can work with that, because sometimes they leave and you don't know why, and you know that's difficult, because sometimes you're like oh, I see, cause you know it's as a therapist, you're hearing them, and then you're surveying the whole landscape when should I go with this?
• 14:15
  Mary: Or you know, helping to clarify what's the most important or what's the most painful.
• 14:20
  Mary: And you see, okay, I see that light.
• 14:23
  Mary: They might not see it yet, but the lights at the end of the tunnel and then they ghost you and you know it's.
• 14:30
  Mary: It's that's also, I think, part of the process.
• 14:33
  Mary: Sometimes people aren't ready, and that is okay, but I think I want us to normalize that.
• 14:39
  Laura: Sometimes you just feel so yucky when you look in that junk drawer and you see, oh my gosh, I haven't dealt with this stuff for years, sure sure, and you decide to just kind of close it up again and really, you know, advocating for people, for our clients, to have that conversation with us, and maybe it is like, all right, this is not the time.
• 15:03
  Laura: Or, you know, sometimes finances are involved, or maybe it's a scheduling issue, but sometimes it's just too painful, too much and us knowing that as clinicians, we can work with our clients, you know what would make this feel better.
• 15:20
  Laura: You know, maybe we pulled out too much junk at once.
• 15:23
  Laura: Let's, let's refocus on something.
• 15:26
  Laura: Maybe that feels doable and and really it's a, it's a lifestyle change and just small, tangible changes that you can keep up in your life.
• 15:39
  Mary: Yeah, and I think too the idea of when something is really painful.
• 15:45
  Mary: Of course we want to pull back from that, but you know, for there to be that sort of container of'm not sure this is working for me.
• 15:55
  Mary: Or, you know, I'll have clients say to me I like homework.
• 15:57
  Mary: I'm not typically a homework giver, but I will work with you if there are things that will help you.
• 16:16
  Mary: You know physical things to do between each appointment, but it's also, I think, the therapist's job to inform a client that, okay, we're going to dig into some stuff and it might really hurt and you might be tempted to not come back.
• 16:32
  Mary: Or, if there's an issue with money, you can tell the truth, because I'm going to guarantee you we've heard it before.
• 16:39
  Mary: Yes, and that might be another one for our list, laura that I think some people think I'm the only person that's ever felt this way.
• 16:48
  Laura: For sure Nope, and we have heard it all before, and I think probably my favorite thing about being a therapist is just that this is a place where you are not going to be judged.
• 16:59
  Laura: That unconditional positive regard that you know is one of our principles of being a therapist is this is a no judgment zone.
• 17:08
  Laura: It is okay and to practice being vulnerable and sharing things that you're uncomfortable with, like finances.
• 17:16
  Mary: Yeah, and one of the things that I'm going to kind of go off on a little tangent here and I hadn't really intended to go here, but when we're talking about pain and even trauma, there are a lot of people that are out there as coaches.
• 17:32
  Mary: And I am not dissing coaching at all I'm working on a coaching certification for nutrition but I think, being careful when you see someone that says they are something like a trauma coach or you know things where really strong words like that, and again, not dissing them because hopefully they've had training, but I say hopefully, because coaching is unregulated, yes, so the other thing that I think is different about therapy and again, I wear both hats, but very, very clear, clear boundaries between those two roles.
• 18:08
  Mary: But therapists also have what's called supervision, which means if we encounter something where we feel like gosh, this is a lot, I'm not sure sort of what direction to go.
• 18:21
  Mary: Or we have a client that's in distress and maybe they mentioned wanting to harm themselves or someone else.
• 18:28
  Mary: We have other people that we go to.
• 18:36
  Laura: Yes, and you're absolutely right, and probably another one of my favorite things about being a therapist is having those resources and those people, those other therapists, past supervisors, that I can call up and kind of run things by get a second opinion or sometimes it's some reassurance.
• 18:55
  Laura: But yeah, sometimes there'll be multiple licensed therapists helping your therapist work with you.
• 19:03
  Mary: There's a network.
• 19:03
  Mary: If someone is doing the work of counseling therapy ethically, they're part of a network that they can turn to.
• 19:12
  Mary: And again, I want to be clear that there are some counselors, therapists, that may not operate in the best way and so, again, follow your gut if something's not feeling comfortable or if you really want to work with a certain gender of therapist, yes, you know, it is your journey and you are in many parts of this.
• 19:36
  Mary: You're driving the car.
• 19:37
  Laura: Absolutely and honoring that intuition, which is something that you talk about a lot on your on your podcast and, I think, so many of my clients that I've talked to.
• 19:46
  Laura: It's either been labeled as anxiety or overthinking, but when we really dig into it, it's just we have this intuition and learning to listen to it, learning to trust it and, like you said, following it.
• 19:59
  Mary: Yeah, and that I love that you mentioned other episodes, because I do talk about like essential nature and I think, with the idea of people women taking up their space, we often feel like we don't want to offend someone, right?
• 20:14
  Mary: So we don't, we don't use our voice, but we have an intuition and so if you say to your therapist, you know, know, I feel like this isn't working, can the language would be, can you give me a referral to someone else, or if they're visibly upset with that, that tells you you've made a good decision absolutely yeah.
• 20:35
  Mary: Yeah, because it's not first personal and we we know that and well, and I think the other thing is, you know, there might be a situation where maybe I've taken someone through part of their journey and then I might say, okay, here's an.
• 20:50
  Mary: So we have kind of come up with some coping strategies for you.
• 20:53
  Mary: You're doing pretty well.
• 20:54
  Mary: But you have this other issue that you wanted to address.
• 20:58
  Mary: I feel like I don't have as much knowledge in that area as so-and-so does, and sometimes we make the referral.
• 21:05
  Laura: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 21:07
  Laura: I think it's like part of being, you know, an ethical therapist is knowing you know this is out of my scope of practice, or I think I know somebody who would be a better fit and I like how you said, you know, because our journey is ever changing, you know, and we can be there for part of it, but really we don't take any anything personal because you know, we know that even in my own I kind of joke with clients.
• 21:31
  Laura: You know, I've said I've been to other therapists and I've done the intakes and I kind of say like, yeah, I mean you should be shopping, you should be shopping for your therapist.
• 21:39
  Laura: Meet a couple, see how you feel, see how your body reacts and remember that you are the client and this service is for you.
• 21:48
  Laura: And in this moment I mean we're sending a message, a strong message to, to our mind, that I'm putting myself first here and and that can be really, really, really something that that our body and mind need to hear.
• 22:04
  Mary: Yes, very much so, and the other part of, I think, intuition is that sense of connectedness to someone.
• 22:13
  Mary: There's very clear research that the most impactful thing about therapy is the connection with the therapist.
• 22:22
  Mary: It's not about number one, Yep, it's not about do you use cognitive therapy, Do you use EMDR, like all of those things are wonderful tools to have, but having that connection and you know, one of the things I think about is where else do you go?
• 22:39
  Mary: And for 45 to 55 minutes it is all about you and you can say whatever you want.
• 22:45
  Mary: Absolutely so cool.
• 22:48
  Laura: Absolutely it really is.
• 22:50
  Laura: And just using it as your time and you know, I see some teens sometimes who are a little reluctant to come into the therapy room.
• 22:58
  Laura: You know their parents have kind of said like this is something that that I want you to do and I love, I love to tell them this is your time, this is your space and this is all about you.
• 23:09
  Laura: So please and I've, I've had kids, I've had adults tell me, you know, if I'm going a certain way or if I'm suggesting a certain activity that, for whatever reason we might, we might investigate it a little bit, but you're not ready or comfortable to do, please say so.
• 23:26
  Mary: This is your time and you bring up a good point.
• 23:28
  Mary: I haven't worked with young people for a few years.
• 23:31
  Mary: I used to be a high school counselor for almost 20 years, so I love working with teenagers.
• 23:39
  Mary: But when you have a parent bringing a child to you or anyone under 18, sometimes parents have the idea that you're going to tell them everything and you know, isn't that a challenging conversation to have?
• 23:53
  Laura: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, that can be one of the more challenging ones, and you know, something that I tell parents is again what you pointed out is it is this relationship that's the most important.
• 24:05
  Laura: So you're bringing your child to a trusted professional and we want them to get out of this what they can.
• 24:14
  Laura: But a lot of that is respecting their privacy, their boundaries, and I'll have very just, open conversations with my teenagers especially.
• 24:22
  Laura: I think this is something important that maybe we share with mom or dad or caregiver and they might say no, you know, I'm not comfortable with it.
• 24:32
  Laura: And then from there we can investigate why.
• 24:34
  Laura: Why are we not comfortable?
• 24:36
  Laura: Or do we need help with communication skills, or what is the barrier to this?
• 24:43
  Mary: Well, and I know from the work that you do and first of all I want to let the listeners know that you do work with a lot of young people and I have so much respect for that because there are so many dynamics at play.
• 24:58
  Mary: You might have a kid who has parents that are divorcing and then you know you have that dynamic that a parent wants to know what they said and parents that I mean by rights are very worried about their kids.
• 25:11
  Mary: So you not only have to assure the parents that if there's any danger to their child you will tell them, but you have to.
• 25:20
  Mary: You can't help someone if they don't feel like they can tell you things in confidence.
• 25:25
  Laura: Absolutely Yep, and you are so right with the different dynamics of what makes a family and who is my client.
• 25:32
  Laura: And I think just keeping the main focus, a central focus, helps me in some of those more complicated cases who is my client and what is best for this client?
• 25:44
  Laura: And sometimes having those hard conversations with parents and them questioning it and us sharing the reason, the research, what we see, where we see this going and our goals for really not just their child but the family as a whole, oh yeah, yes, and that's the other thing that I really admire people who do family therapy work, because, oh, that is that takes a lot of energy, a lot.
• 26:11
  Mary: Yes, you're still young Laura's younger than me, so she still has the energy.
• 26:15
  Laura: Yes, I can kind of see, though, how people kind of phase out of it eventually, or, you know, and I've kind of learned how to stack my schedule in a way that isn't feeling draining, so I'll have just like a really intense kid session and then maybe have an adult that I know wants to sit and talk, so kind of just mixing it up too.
• 26:34
  Laura: I enjoy all agents and, as you know, since you've worked with younger people too, it's just also very different, which is another reason I love this, I love this career.
• 26:44
  Mary: Yeah Well, and often I wish that I had the family there.
• 26:48
  Mary: And this brings up one of the other points that we were going to talk about why do people end up in therapy?
• 26:54
  Mary: So it's such a buffet of reasons, but I think that what we learn early in life, we learn things to survive and then often those things stop working.
• 27:07
  Mary: So this is where I think being able to get in on the front end, like with family therapy, because we get to a point often in our lives and we realize we're doing a certain thing.
• 27:19
  Mary: It might be that we are crazily independent and to the point that it's hurting us, or we are too dependent.
• 27:28
  Mary: There could be a lot of things and we recognize oh, in my family I was the caretaker, or my parents weren't available emotionally for me, or they had their own mental health issues and so many of that, and this is a Freudian thing.
• 27:44
  Mary: So we're not going to go the whole way down that route, but we are so informed by not just our nature but how we were, or were not, nurtured.
• 27:54
  Laura: Sure, sure, and making that connection can be so powerful.
• 27:58
  Laura: Oh, you know, that's why I isolate when I have feelings of sadness or anger, you know, because sometimes, you know, we'll have conversations.
• 28:08
  Laura: Well, when I was younger and I was upset or I cried, I was sent to my room and the door was closed.
• 28:13
  Laura: And now, as an adult, that's what.
• 28:15
  Laura: That's what we're doing.
• 28:16
  Laura: We're we're fleeing and we're not sitting with those feelings and we believe they're too much for other people.
• 28:21
  Laura: But this isolation now is hurting us.
• 28:23
  Laura: It's hurting our families, our partners, so many things.
• 28:27
  Laura: But making that connection can just be so empowering.
• 28:30
  Laura: Oh, that's why I did that, but, and it served me then.
• 28:34
  Laura: But it's no longer serving me and I want to learn a new habit, a new way.
• 28:40
  Mary: Yeah, and I think people tend to think that's the part of them that's broken, and I love to reframe that as no, you did what you did to survive and I don't know.
• 28:55
  Mary: I mean, I think a lot of people probably recognize that their biggest strength is often their biggest weakness.
• 29:03
  Mary: Yes, yes, so you can be amazingly independent, but that doesn't mean you're an island and so you know, I think reframing, I love positive psychology because it's looking at people through their strengths and often we just need to temper or find a different way to use some of those survival skills because they've become unhelpful or unhealthy.
• 29:31
  Laura: Sure, sure, and even you know, befriending or accepting past versions of ourselves, understanding why we reacted that way and why we had to, and that it was a coping skill and that it kept us safe, and that we're that.
• 29:45
  Laura: We're grateful for it.
• 29:46
  Laura: Because you know something?
• 29:47
  Laura: I find a lot of people in the therapy room.
• 29:50
  Laura: You know they're either angry that they have this I keep thinking of the book no bad parts If you're familiar.
• 29:56
  Mary: I know, yeah, yeah.
• 29:57
  Laura: Yeah, yeah, but kind of befriending those parts, learning, learning about them and and knowing that it just makes us who we are.
• 30:05
  Laura: But then going back to that strengths-based how can we use this for our betterment?
• 30:12
  Mary: Yeah, and that is a beautiful way of saying no bad parts because we sometimes think about, maybe if we were a teenager that was rebellious, or we were someone who, again, was a pleaser I often have, because now we have TikTok, we have so many things where people are more informed, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse but they'll come in and say, well, I was a pleaser, okay, well, let's talk about what that means.
• 30:41
  Mary: How's it serve you now and how does it no longer serve you?
• 30:45
  Mary: But again, framing it as my God, what a brave kid you were to make it through, yep, to make it through what you did, absolutely so, in doing your family work.
• 30:57
  Mary: Wow, like how powerful to start to change the dynamic of the entire system and I love systems therapy, but that is a whole other episode so powerful to do that work, laura.
• 31:12
  Laura: Well, thank you, thank you, and I think you know our clients just make it worth it by.
• 31:18
  Laura: You know, when we get to see that transformation and we get to be with them and I'm going to go back to your China cabinet example, but you know, when we get to see them, you know, put their China cabinet back together it just really motivates us as clinicians because it's why we're here.
• 31:37
  Laura: You know, we want to walk alongside of you and kind of you know there's a quote that talks about and I'm going to misquote it, so I won't even but we're just with you while you find your light.
• 31:47
  Laura: We can't exactly find it for you or show it to you, but we're alongside with you on the journey.
• 31:55
  Mary: Yeah, yeah, it's a partnership, for sure, and I think sort of to segue into, I believe sort of the last bullet point that we had talked about is that no one's ever fixed.
• 32:06
  Mary: So it's not like all of a sudden one day you're going to arrive at mental health and you will never have anxiety, you will never have sadness.
• 32:17
  Mary: It's an ongoing journey.
• 32:19
  Mary: Just like we have to pay attention to stay physically healthy, we need to do the same for mental health.
• 32:26
  Laura: Absolutely, and a lot of times the transformation it really is just kind of it's a lifestyle change If we want long lasting results.
• 32:36
  Laura: Like hey, I'm realizing I never say no to plans and I'm overwhelmed and I'm overbooked and I'm always stressed and so we're going to learn how to set boundaries in here.
• 32:44
  Laura: But, like you said, that doesn't mean that there won't be situations or people or times in our lives where that's a thing again.
• 32:51
  Laura: But it's like a muscle memory the more that we do it and it's just a whole lot of repetition and staying focused on that end goal.
• 32:59
  Laura: This is going to make me feel better, advocating for myself and my own needs, making sure I like myself and I want to do what I'm agreeing to.
• 33:09
  Laura: That's going to feel good.
• 33:10
  Laura: And we get to feel that it's motivating for our clients too, of like, all right, that felt good, and now I'm noticing I'm not doing it and that doesn't feel good.
• 33:18
  Laura: So let me go back here and continue.
• 33:20
  Mary: Yeah, and even being able to say between sessions oh, I didn't do so well with that goal last week.
• 33:27
  Mary: That's something to be embarrassed about, cause I think about.
• 33:30
  Mary: I love chocolate cake and a lot of the time I can have a bite or two or none and I'm good.
• 33:37
  Mary: But you know, sometimes we hit a point of life, or it might be an event, or you know whether it's you know consuming too much social media, or it's we had a crisis in our own lives.
• 33:47
  Mary: We backslide with physical things, maybe we stop exercising for a while, or our healthy eating habits take a dive and we get off the track.
• 33:57
  Mary: The same thing happens.
• 33:59
  Mary: You can have those coping strategies, but you might either sort of think, oh, I'm good now, I'm not going to use these, and then when things get a little bit rough, it's hard to get back on that track, and so it's okay to go back to therapy and say I'm sort of off track.
• 34:16
  Laura: I spend a lot of time reassuring my clients that there is no failing at therapy, there's no wrong way to do this, just showing up exactly as you are.
• 34:25
  Laura: And if that is, I didn't think about one thing we said last time and that is okay, and it kind of goes back to this.
• 34:34
  Laura: You know, what makes this a beautiful relationship is that this is a no judgment zone, that we are viewing you with unconditional positive regard.
• 34:42
  Laura: You don't have to be embarrassed to say those things, but sometimes it does give us then just a little more information of you know, maybe your relationship with shame or with things not getting done, or I mean we can use it all, so there's no wrong way to be.
• 35:02
  Mary: Yeah, and I think too, certain situations are going to make us feel like we are re-experiencing something.
• 35:11
  Mary: So I feel like life challenges us to go to the next step.
• 35:14
  Mary: So maybe there's a new relationship and you realize, oh my gosh, I'm enacting these same patterns again.
• 35:19
  Mary: And so you know, I know for me, when I would have big life changes or losses, that's when I would feel like, all right, I'm going to go back to therapy because I need to sort of have somebody else to help me sort through this.
• 35:34
  Mary: Yeah, well, and the other thing too we talked, you know, a lot about this idea of unconditional positive regard.
• 35:41
  Mary: But I'm going to asterisk that, laura, in that that doesn't mean we're not going to challenge a client.
• 35:46
  Mary: Sure, sure, that's how growth happens.
• 35:49
  Mary: And you know, as a nature girl, you know the small trees, the saplings.
• 35:53
  Mary: They're made to be very bendy, like in the wind they'll bend.
• 35:59
  Mary: Yep, a big, rigid tree is the one that's going to break or fall over in a storm.
• 36:05
  Mary: So being able to sort of challenge you to be bendy and go to the edge of your comfort zone, that's how you're going to grow.
• 36:14
  Laura: They're going to be supported and that's why the work in, because you talked about TikTok and I know a lot of people, you know, I've even had people tell me well, you know, I just asked AI, what would a therapist tell me?
• 36:32
  Laura: But a lot of it is the environment, the relationship, like you said, that number one predictor we have to know that we're in a safe enough place that we can bend, and we can bend but we're not going to break.
• 36:43
  Laura: And I kind of like what you said too is you know, we're these things that we have to learn.
• 36:51
  Laura: There was Gabrielle Bernstein.
• 36:51
  Laura: She is on Instagram, she has some books that I read, but one of her main teachings is that she says you know, the universe kind of teaches us things, what we need to learn, until we kind of learn it.
• 37:04
  Laura: So, whether it's patience or waiting in the unknown, but we're going to kind of keep getting these lessons until we face them.
• 37:12
  Mary: Yeah, I say it in a less eloquent way like life will tap you on the shoulder and then it will kind of like nudge you with its elbow.
• 37:19
  Mary: Then it's going to smack you across the head and it's all that.
• 37:24
  Mary: If we pull that thread it's like, oh, I'm still needing to learn this, and so that goes back to the idea that we are never 100%, always healthy.
• 37:34
  Mary: They're having ups and downs, backsliding.
• 37:38
  Mary: That's why we're human.
• 37:40
  Mary: That happens in nature.
• 37:41
  Mary: I mean again, probably listeners are like, oh my God, she's going to her garden geek place again.
• 37:47
  Mary: But you know, there are years where I'll have a plant that doesn't thrive.
• 37:51
  Mary: In.
• 37:51
  Mary: That same plant the next year looks great because the environment that it was in more rain, more sun, whatever was different.
• 37:59
  Laura: Absolutely, and you know even the gardening.
• 38:01
  Laura: There's a visualization that I like to talk to with some of my clients or talk about Sometimes our gardens are flourishing and they're just doing so well and sometimes it's like I didn't even put that much work into it.
• 38:14
  Laura: But lots of times we have seasons where they're not, or there's lots of weeds and they need a little bit more attention, and I just love examples that we can give our clients, for them to kind of be reminded when they are in nature which we know is healing in itself that I will bloom again and we all have these seasons, and it really is the human experience and as therapists and humans, we are experiencing it too.
• 38:40
  Laura: Our gardens get dry or weedy or we need to water them, whatever it is, but we're living the same, the same life that you know.
• 38:50
  Laura: We are all, all one.
• 38:52
  Mary: Yeah, Wow, what a beautiful bow to put on this conversation.
• 38:56
  Mary: That that was a great way to sum it up, because, yeah, we are at the end of the day, therapists are people too, and so one more reason to feel like as the client be honest, if something's not connecting or you need something different, we are open to that because we are.
• 39:13
  Mary: Obviously.
• 39:13
  Mary: We do this work because we would like people to help heal, and so we need to know how our clients are experiencing that.
• 39:22
  Laura: Yes, absolutely.
• 39:24
  Laura: And yeah, thank you so much for, for, you know, letting me join in on this topic and conversation, because just letting people know that it is okay to advocate for themselves and to speak up and that they will be supported.
• 39:39
  Mary: Yeah, and the one thing that I wanted to make sure that I highlight here.
• 39:42
  Mary: So for LPCs which is what we are licensed professional counselors we are licensed by state, so we can only work with clients in the states where we're licensed.
• 39:53
  Mary: You are licensed in Pennsylvania and Maryland Yep, correct, and you do teletherapy, so I do.
• 40:00
  Mary: We're going to have your website as part of the show notes, so if anybody wants to reach out and learn more about Laura, that information will be there.
• 40:09
  Mary: You mentioned Gabrielle Bernstein and you mentioned no Bad Parts.
• 40:14
  Mary: I'm going to have links to that information in the show notes.
• 40:18
  Laura: Oh perfect.
• 40:19
  Mary: And thank you so much for taking your time to be here.
• 40:23
  Mary: This has been so fun to talk to you.
• 40:26
  Laura: Yes, thank you Mary for having me.
• 40:28
  Laura: Yeah, and I think you know I told you a little bit that I just love the chance to talk to other mental health professionals and kind of expand that network that we talked about.
• 40:37
  Mary: Yeah, and I think it's that peek behind the curtain.
• 40:39
  Mary: I think it can be really helpful because sometimes I take for granted you know with what I do, but I know sometimes people will bring up like, well, I don't even know, like what is therapy or a new client will be will be like what happens there.
• 40:52
  Mary: So being able to do that with someone and discuss and have sort of chat about it, I think is really cool.
• 40:59
  Mary: And so one of the most important reasons I do this podcast is because it's a wonderfully supportive community of both women and men that support women taking up their space in the world and living a life of fulfillment.
• 41:12
  Mary: And I love to hear from my listeners.
• 41:14
  Mary: So please comment, follow or text me directly using the link in the show notes.
• 41:19
  Mary: Reviews are really helpful and let me know what you thought of this episode or tell me what you'd love to hear about.
• 41:26
  Mary: Any mental health or wellness topic is not off limits.
• 41:29
  Mary: You can also visit my website at maryrothwellnet there's a link in the show notes to see all the impactful options I have to help people find health and wellness and to see all my podcast episodes in one place.
• 41:43
  Mary: And, as always, thanks for listening and until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.
• 41:52
  Mary: Thank you.