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Nichola Gokool on the Most Powerful Word in Communication · Expertly Said

• Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Nicola Gokul, Senior Vice President, Head of Medical Communications at Parexel. Throughout her 13-year tenure with the organization, she has held various medical communications leadership positions and spearheaded numerous patient-centric initiatives, including the Parexel Patient Advisory Council, Parexel Patient Community, and the Patient Advocacy Group Engagement Service. Her expertise in the healthcare and pharmaceutical sector spans more than two decades. Nicola earned a first class Bachelor of Science with honors in nutrition and dietetics from the University of Surrey, UK and holds a professional diploma in marketing. She's also a ProSci certified change practitioner. An active contributor to the field, Nicola regularly publishes research and presents at healthcare industry conferences. She was appointed to the ISMPP Board of Trustees in 2022 and currently serves as co-chair of the ISMPP Patient Engagement Task Force. Nicola, welcome to the show. Nichola Gokool: Thank you very much for having me. It's an absolute pleasure to speak with you today, Kristin. Kristen Sweeney: Very excited to have you here. So we heard a bit about your background in the bio, ⁓ but I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more about your origin story. How did you end up in communications and how did you end up in medical communications? Nichola Gokool: Great question. So as you heard from my biog, my degree was actually in nutrition and dietetics. So I started life actually in my career as a healthcare professional. So I trained as a dietitian and I worked in a large, a number of large London teaching hospitals here in the UK in London. And that's really where I learned the power of communication. So as a dietitian, the only tool I really had in my toolbox was communications at that. dieticians couldn't prescribe, so really your conversation and your engagement and interactions with patients was that key tool that you had. And as many of us know, discussions about food and nutrition and diet can be incredibly emotive. So through that start out in my career, I really learnt the importance and the power of communications, both from an active listening perspective, but also the need to have really clear approaches to your communication style because that was the only way that I could really connect with patients, build trust with those patients that I was working with and ultimately provide support and guidance. So that set me up for my foundation and my career in communications. I got the bug for healthcare communications. From there I moved into a number of different roles working in healthcare research, public relations and then ultimately moving into a number of industry roles both in healthcare communications. and also then ultimately medical communication. So I've worked in medical affairs and also marketing and really learned the power of communications to connect with people and to our various stakeholders. And that's where I find myself now. So I've been with ParExcel for 13, almost 14 years in our medical communications division where we provide end-to-end communication solutions for our pharmaceutical clients and supporting them. the entirety of the drug development life cycle. MS they're bringing products and new drugs through from early concept phase through to commercialisation and available for prescription for patients and those that need them. Kristen Sweeney: It's so cool and I immediately when you said as a dietitian, my only tool is communication, right? Like it made so much sense to me, but is never a frame that I would have placed on that before. I'm curious if you feel like. Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: not as a reflection of your education specifically, but do you feel like you were set up for success in that regard? Or do you feel like communication was either a skill that was a strength of yours innately or something you really, whoa, had to learn in order to be able to influence behavior, right? Which is what you're ultimately trying to do. Like, did you get that in school and through, or was it more focused on the information and the science? Nichola Gokool: Yeah. That's a really good question. So my degree was, it was a scientific degree. So we spent a lot of time focused on biochemistry and biology and chemistry. There was throughout the four year degree, there was a number of components that covered communication. So we had a couple of dedicated modules. I then did as part of my degree, I did a year placement working out in hospitals. So two different teaching hospitals in very different patient demographics. And I think that's when I picked up the need for. the importance of communication. it was sort of taught, but I think it's only through interacting and engaging with patients that I learned the hard way, probably, thinking and reflecting back on some difficult conversations that I'd had with patients that actually if I was able to connect with an individual in the right way, that was incredibly powerful. And that meant that the next interaction, the next time we had a follow-up conversation, they were more likely to trust. and they were more likely to open up. And very early on, I learned some tidbits. It's only now as I'm talking to you I'm thinking about it. I used to write on my own. We had to write out medical notes and a summary of the consultation we had with patients. But I used to write personal notes about the patient as well, like they've got a dog or they've got a cat or they're going on holiday to whichever place. And then at the next appointment, I would refer back to those little notes to say, how's the dog doing? Or how was that vacation? And it helped to just really reconnect with the patient and they trusted me and then they were more likely to open up. So I think it was to answer your question a little bit of thought but some of it was actually on the job learning, self-awareness and understanding that I could be a better dietitian if I improve my communication tactics and my communication style. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, absolutely. anyone who's been, haven't we all, on the receiving end of someone who remembers something about us from that previous conversation is just an immediate openness that is created there. I love this, and I want to stick with it for a second, because I think that it's probably going to segue quite directly into your current career and your current role. But the idea, think, so often, when you think about patience, Nichola Gokool: Yes. Yes, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Kristen Sweeney: we hear about education and it's as though if they just had the information, they would then go do the thing. And in reality, right, that probably couldn't be farther from the truth. There's this massive gap of really influencing behavior, ⁓ know, kind of compliance, also, you know, listening, right? As the practitioner who has all the information of what are their unique circumstances, challenges, what's their context that Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: is going to make those behaviors maybe more difficult or a bigger challenge. So I imagine that skill of recognizing the difference between education, which is part of it, and actual influence ⁓ has been very valuable across your career. Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Absolutely, yeah, and I think for me it's about education is one element and yes, we need to provide education, but it's also about listening and understanding and then engaging and really taking time to understand what's important to patients, what they need to know, what their biggest challenges are, what their unmet needs are, and then you craft your communication solutions to really meet those needs. And that's something I've done. throughout my career actually is making sure that there is that connection involvement with patients and we can't make assumptions. I remember when I trained initially as a dietitian there was this view that the healthcare professional and the doctor could be the proxy for the patient. We didn't need to talk to patients to understand what was important to them. We could make that because we were trained professionally. That couldn't be further from the truth. You actually need to take the time to connect with whoever your stakeholder might be. In that case it's patients. what's important to them, what do they need? And then that guides how you develop your communication solution, how you guide your communications and your interactions with them. So it's more of a partnership and a collaboration than the education, which is just doing something to somebody. It's more of that two-way partnership, really. Kristen Sweeney: Right. I think, you know, depending on the patient and the complexity of what they're dealing with, sometimes people don't want to know all of the details. They want the relevant details. It might scare them or cause fear to know, have sort of too much information. This is very minor, but I remember ⁓ years and years ago, I got LASIK on my eyes and I was in the waiting room and they offered that I could watch Nichola Gokool: quite. Yes, absolutely. Kristen Sweeney: on a video screen like the previous patient and I was like, no, thank you. I knew the procedure, but I was kind of like, the less I know about this, the better off I'm going to be. So there's that element too, is that more education, more information, not always better, certainly having it available for people, but not always the most. So. Nichola Gokool: ⁓ wow. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: You talked about taking this philosophy into your career and you've really built and anchored your career at Pirexel. A little bit unusual, right? A lot of folks in your space are changing ⁓ companies every two to three years. I think you've had maybe seven different roles there, but tell me what about that organization or the work that you're doing has ⁓ caused you to really kind of plant your flag there. Nichola Gokool: Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah. And I think for me, there's a couple of elements. So it's about making a difference. So the work that we do at Pyrexel, so we are what's known as a clinical research organisation. So we're not a pharmaceutical company. We work on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry, conducting clinical research, clinical trials, but also supporting end to end on a client's drug development life cycle. So that's providing. other elements such as regulatory support, market access support, and then the communications area where I work. So we really see ourselves as being integral to helping our clients and our pharmaceutical customers get drugs to market quicker and ultimately improving and impacting patient lives. So that concept of really making a difference is important to me. Within PyrXL as well, one of our core values is patients first, so really holding that patient. at the heart of everything we do. We lead with the patient insights, we lead with what's important to patients. So for me, those elements are really what's kept me here all this time because it aligns with my core values about wanting to make a difference, wanting to partner with patients, wanting to bring that patient perspective in and really, really support patients. ⁓ and making a difference as I say. So that's one element. And then the other piece is, as you mentioned, I've had a number of different roles within my tenure at Power Excel, so I've not sat sitting in one job and not progressed. I've had huge opportunity to develop. And as an organization, I've always felt supported to take that next career step. been given a huge amount of autonomy where there's been opportunities to develop new service lines and you mentioned a couple of those in the introductory section about me. So I've been given that opportunity where I've had an idea, seen an opportunity, wanted to progress that through to an actual new service line and been given that bandwidth and that space and the support to be able to do that. And then the third piece for me as well, and you and I are women in leadership roles in our organisations, having power behind and support. women in leadership is incredibly important to me and having that program to support that culture and develop women through their careers and that's something that's incredibly important at ParExcel. Our CEO is a female and we have a very very strong women in leadership program that's embedded throughout our organization so I've really felt supported to have a voice. as a female leader and actually been encouraged to develop that and then in turn then that's allowed me to support others and other female leaders now to support them through their career journeys as well. Kristen Sweeney: I love that. ⁓ It sounds like a great place to work. And I've had the privilege of speaking to a number of women in leadership roles. inside life sciences more broadly. And a common theme which you echoed here is this really this importance of paying it forward, right? That you've had those opportunities and then to turn around and say, how can I take kind of the next generation of leaders and give them the same kind of opportunities and confidence to move up and grow in their careers? So that's great. That's great. ⁓ So you mentioned something a moment ago about Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm, yes, yeah, absolutely. Kristen Sweeney: really working with patients, and I pulled this quote from one of the publications ⁓ we published, I think in August of last year, patients are becoming true partners in research, not just participants. Can you talk about that evolving role and what that looks like, how it's impacting your work, how it's impacting communications work specifically? Nichola Gokool: Yeah, it's a great question and it's a journey that we're on with patient involvement in research and I think the work will never be done, we'll always constantly be seeking to improve that patient involvement. Many, many years ago, I think I mentioned earlier that there was this view that healthcare professionals, doctors could provide that patient perspective and we didn't need to talk to patients because how could they possibly have a role in research because they didn't have necessarily a scientific background. Over time there's this genuine movement to understanding actually patients are the experts in their own health condition. They know what it's like to live day to day with a particular medical condition. They know where a drug or a medical treatment helps them, where there are some challenges and what those unmet needs are. So it's really critical that we engage with patients to take that time to understand. and really see them as a partner as we move through that drug development life cycle. So shift that I've seen, and it's something that we've driven quite heavily through our work at Parexcel and also through the work I've done with the society that you mentioned earlier on, ISMPP, ⁓ is taking a look and a hard look actually at that drug development life cycle and identifying points where patients should be ⁓ involved where we should be seeing them as a partner to gather gather insights, take the time to connect with them ⁓ just to give you some examples, it may be as we're starting to design a clinical ⁓ reaching out, bringing together a group of patients and patient advocacy group to sit and give feedback on a clinical trial protocol to determine does this answer a research question that's going to be important for patients? Do the outcomes actually align with those meaningful endpoints that make a difference and matter to patients? And then more importantly, is this trial going to be easy for a patient to participate in and how can we make it easy? Clinical trials are lengthy, incredibly burdensome to the patients and their families. So actually taking time to understand, how can we make this easier? Is there things here that are going to actually for you be a challenge for you to participate and also for you to maintain your participation in that trial? These trials can run for years and years and years. Kristen Sweeney: you Thank Nichola Gokool: you're asking patients to give up an enormous amount of their time to participate in research. So really thinking about how you can support them in that journey and make it as easy as possible. And then also really understanding why patients want to participate in research in the first place. And many, many patients that we talk to, it's actually similar to the conversation we just had about paying it forward. And actually many patients want to participate because of supporting other patients that are coming. behind them. So once you understand that reason, it helps you to think about the best ways to partner with patients and bring them into that research so they are this true partner and the key stakeholder in that drug development life cycle, that research life cycle, and then really thinking about what those opportunities might be. So as I said, we're still on this journey. We still have got opportunities and there will always be more opportunities to involve patients, but we're definitely seeing this shift. in earlier engagement, earlier conversations with patients to understand what matters to them and then these regular touch points with patients, patient advocacy groups, the broader patient community to really keep them informed about clinical research and to partner with them as we progress through the different stages of a drug development life cycle, different stages of a clinical trial. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I love that you said this. We have a scientific expert at a client that we've partnered with and she's on the clinical side. And one of the things we were talking about in conversation is the idea of trade-offs, right? That from a science perspective, science always wants as much information as possible, but from the patient perspective. Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: creating a better experience might mean gathering less data because it's fewer labs, it's fewer check-in visits, it's fewer touch points and bringing to light those trade-offs and making decisions. I imagine it can be challenging with gathering patient feedback that at the end of the day, Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: those individual experiences are so important, but you still are having to make decisions that are standardized, right, across a group. It can't be a fully customized protocol for each person that defeats the purpose. So, I'm trying to navigate that and then use judgment to say, where's kind of the line or how flexible can we be? Nichola Gokool: Quite. Absolutely. Quite. Absolutely, yeah. And obviously there are fundamentals and principles that we have to adhere to when we're conducting clinical research and the ultimate goal with research is to make sure that a drug is safe and efficacious to bring it through to market. But yeah, where you can, it's taking those collective perspectives from patients and you're right, we're not at a stage where we can do individualised, but looking at the broader needs of that patient population, but taking that time to connect and understand what those needs might be. Kristen Sweeney: first. Right. Yeah. And patients, of course, are not the only stakeholders you have to consider. give us an overview of the landscape of the different audiences that you need to connect with. And what are some of the challenges of... It's not that those audiences maybe have competing interests. They all have ultimately the same interest, but sort of a different set of incentives and objectives trying to all get to that same place. Nichola Gokool: Quite. No. Yeah, it's absolutely right. So in the work that we do within our Medicom's team here at Parkside, we obviously work with a broad range of stakeholders, primarily patients as we've talked about, but also healthcare professionals. And they can be a variety of different levels. It might be your expert professionals who are very, very specialist in a particular area. It might be a general practitioner. It could be a nurse, for example. We're also working with key opinion leaders and looking at how we communicate and engage with those key opinion leaders. gathering their insights and bringing them into the work that we do. We then also do work with payers and regulators. And then a lot of our work actually is with internal stakeholders. So some of the internal colleagues that work within one of the pharmaceutical organisations that we're working with and how you can bring alignment within those different internal stakeholder groups as well. So there's quite a lot of different individuals that we work with. And then through the from the clinical trial perspective, there's other individuals such as the investigators who are conducting the trial, the study coordinators who are responsible for the day-to-day conduct of the trials. So there's a whole host of stakeholders and audiences that we're talking to, each with differing needs, but ultimately to your point with trying to get them to the same goal, we're obviously trying to communicate key information. It might be disseminating data from the readout from a clinical trial if we're looking at the the key opinion leader piece or the healthcare professional piece. If we're looking in the investigator side of things and study coordinators, that's the other end. We might be looking to actually educate them on a clinical trial, what the objectives are of the clinical trial and educating them on the study protocol and what those parameters are going to be as they actually work on the clinical trial. think whenever I think about the stakeholders and to your point, there might be conflicting needs. It's important to take it back to what are those, who are the stakeholders in the first place? What is it that we need to communicate to them? And that's when looking at what your communication framework is going to be, what are those key communication objectives that you need to communicate consistently to all of your stakeholders. So there is a consistent framework. So everybody's hearing the same thing, but the way they receive that information and the... way that we provide that information might be different. So it might be for one stakeholder, they need a particular communication solution, particular group might want something in a digital format, in a visual format, in a bite-sized podcast, for example. Others may want their information in a much more detailed 200 slide deck, for example, or we might need to do a symposium or a webcast. There's different ways. So it's actually looking at who those audiences are, what do they need. to receive and then what's the format they would like to receive that information. But then our role really as medical communication experts is to ensure there's that consistency in messaging, but then also layering on the different needs of those different stakeholders. So whilst I see and I understand your point about the potential conflict, I actually don't see it as a conflict because it's actually just really going back to foundational principles of communications, which is who your audience is and how do you best engage and communicate with them. Kristen Sweeney: Yes, yes, absolutely. And you kind of anticipated my follow-up question, which was around how do you create that much differentiation, right? But also making sure that you're not sending totally different signals out. It's just communicating the right amount of information in the way that, you you talked about formats, but also kind of the right context, but coming back from a core messaging framework, it always takes a second. Nichola Gokool: Ha ha! Yes, absolutely. We typically work with what we call a scientific communication platform, which is the foundation of our strategic communications, where you've got that very, very clear strategic imperative, strategic communication objectives, and then we build from there. So it all comes back to a central point because otherwise it just becomes noise and not quite so consolidated and aligned in the way that you would want to do it. Ultimately, whilst each stakeholder might have a different way they want to receive the information, there does need to be a consistency in what it is that we're saying. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, definitely. So we've been talking a lot about research and I wanted to, before we kind of move on, I wanted to talk about your own role in research. So ⁓ very active in research and publication. Can you tell us why that's important to you and maybe something that you've worked on recently that you want to share? Nichola Gokool: Yes, so I love research. think I'm innately inquisitive. So I'd like to dig into why things happen and really get a buzz out of doing that level of research and really taking time to understand a problem and then work through potential solutions. So I've obviously done research when I did my degree and then have had throughout my career various different research roles. I worked as a research dietician actually for a large London university before I moved into more of the official communications piece. And then throughout my tenure, mainly at Parixel, actually I've had the opportunity to be involved in research. And I think it always links back to being inquisitive, wanting to understand how our industry is evolving. And for me, that's important for us to be able to then serve the needs of our customers, but also serve the needs of our stakeholders. So the only way you can really understand what's important to them is by doing research and actually tapping into those individual groups. ⁓ and then using that to then build new solutions and new opportunities. So for me it's about being inquisitive I think is what drives me and why I want to keep to be involved in research. Kristen Sweeney: I'm curious if your research, because it's stemming a lot from communications, right, if, I want to say this, is it starting with some kind of observed pattern or shift that you're wanting to quantify versus just kind of fucking, you know, like going and doing a very different kind of process to define a hypothesis? it, we're seeing this, let's see if we can put data around it. Nichola Gokool: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's typically observations that we might see from industry trends, observations from interacting with our different stakeholders, and then also looking more broadly. So I obviously work in healthcare communications in a very, very focused medical clinical area, but there's also learnings that we can take from other industries. So we do keep an eye on. what other industries might be doing and thinking, ⁓ actually, is that something we need to dig into and understand? And then that might lead to a research initiative that we then pursue from a Medcom lens and through our own area of business and area of focus. Kristen Sweeney: I'd love to segue us now to the one big idea, and I'm gonna let you riff a little bit on this here. One big idea that you wanted to talk about was the concept of why, and I know this is both personal and professional for you. So tell me about the idea of finding your why and why that matters. Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So for me, I said, why really is one of the most powerful words I think we have in communications. And this has been entrenched in me, think, from a very early age, from a personal perspective, and then also professionally. So early on in my career, I worked for a very large global FMCG company. I worked in marketing and medical affairs, and I had my role was still predominantly communications. But we were trained intensely to interrogate and ask. why. So every customer interaction, every consumer interaction, we had to dig into that insight and really understand the why and we use that to inform our overarching strategy and then our messaging. So I think that's where I learnt that this concept of why is so important and it moved me from thinking about the what and the how to actually the why is what really matters. and this is why it's so important when we're thinking about connecting with our different audiences and with different stakeholders is digging into that why. But for me as well, it's also looking at what that means for me. So what's my why? So why do I show up every day to do the job that I do? And I think when you have a concept and you understand what's your own why, that can be quite transformative in terms of you do your job. So ⁓ on my career, pretty much every job I've had has always connected back to patients always connected back to wanting to make a difference in one form or another. And really that stems from my childhood actually. My mother is a type 1 diabetic. She was diagnosed when I was about six years of age and I can acutely recall nurses coming to our home to show my mum how to inject herself with her insulin and then my brother and I were then educated and I was educated at that point on how to support my mum, how to look out for and how to treat hyperglycemic attacks so when she had a low blood sugar level. And then over the years I've watched how treatment has evolved massively for diabetes in terms of improvements in insulin. even basic improvements in how she now monitors her glucose and her blood sugar levels that just didn't exist 40 years ago. So through that journey, really made me realise the importance of clear communications because I was a recipient ⁓ as a child about clear communications and those nurses took the fear away. Somebody turning up with a needle and saying, ⁓ your mum's now got to inject herself four times a day and ⁓ actually she may experience some symptoms and she might be very unwell and you need to step in. help her at six years old, that's incredibly important, terrifying actually, but somebody explaining that in a clear way, it took the fear out of that scenario. And I was very much like, okay, well now this is my job, I understand now because they've explained it to me so clearly, I feel part of this. And so that taught me why this communication is so important. And I think over the years, this why concept has become so much more crystallized for me that having compelling communications, compelling engagement solutions, Kristen Sweeney: you Nichola Gokool: really help to accelerate drug development. That's why I do the job I do and really make a difference. So when we're thinking about why, there's lots of questions we should be asking ourselves. So what's your own why? But then also thinking, why does this matter? Why does this matter to patients? Why would a busy clinician, a busy healthcare professional want to interact with this communications that I've created for them? Why now? Why should they engage now? And I think when you put that why hat on, it really transforms the way you communicate and the way you go about developing communication solutions. Kristen Sweeney: I love that. ⁓ So two things come to mind for me. One, you talked about being so young when you heard that information. And I have young kids myself, seven and three. And I recall receiving advice that you actually shouldn't sugarcoat things with young kids, that the best thing you can do is say, this difficult thing is happening. ⁓ You know, we had some ⁓ Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: folks in our life like pass away when my oldest was young. And it was like, don't make up a story, just kind of give it to them straight. You don't need to do a lot of embellishment or anything else. And that actually that sort of clarity, which I think you mentioned can be something that helps kind of reduce the fear. And even it doesn't make something easy necessarily, but it makes it feel more sort of emotionally manageable. And I do wonder about... Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes! Kristen Sweeney: that for young kids where I think sometimes as adults we have a of other baggage and maybe we need a lot more sort of, I don't know, like extra embellishments around something. ⁓ And then you talked about, ⁓ I'm gonna try and remember what my second thought was, because I wanted to hit that point. ⁓ the why. I see why as so connected to what it really means to have empathy for that person and really Nichola Gokool: White. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ It's a ⁓ no small feat to actually put yourself in somebody else's shoes. I think about that, I have a background as an actor, right? And so that is like what acting fundamentally is, is like embody the circumstances of that character. I mean, people spend their whole lives trying to, like that is a craft that people work on. And I think sometimes we can get a little cynical about it, like the kind of what's in it for me. Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: And like, that's a fine shorthand, I suppose, to say, are we creating something that matters? But I like how you articulated it in a way that let it go that one level deeper, like getting into the why and really connecting with them. And I think that also does require putting yourself in their kind of set of given circumstances ⁓ to understand what would be of value to them. Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Absolutely, yes. And I think unless you take that time to, and that's why, why, I'm using why again, that's why when in my previous role where we were asked to interrogate why, we were actually asked to say why five times. So you do the why and you think about it you go, but okay, why now? Kristen Sweeney: you years. Nichola Gokool: But why? But why? But why? And until you'd got to the fifth why, that was only when there was the thought that you'd got that true reasoning, that true insight that you could then act upon. So I think it goes deeper than I'm just asking it once. It's actually multiple layers to get that connection that you mentioned, to get that real empathy and understanding. Kristen Sweeney: room. Yeah. Do any examples come to mind of where really kind of persisting to dig in maybe helped change what the insight was? Nichola Gokool: Yeah, yeah, and again, I'll link back to the previous role where we were working on it was some nutritional products actually that are available on through prescription and pediatric products actually as well. And it was really taking the time to understand why this particular product that we had under development and we weren't ready to bring to market yet, why it was so important. And actually it was a formula, ⁓ nasogastric feed formula that was for children who were going to be fed artificially. and really understanding why and what was important to the parents that were going to be ultimately administering this product, why it was so important for them. And actually what was important was not that it had all these high levels and the right levels of vitamins and minerals and protein and carbohydrate, it was actually the source of those and we were able to produce it from ⁓ organic ingredients and as close as we possibly could get it to real food. It's not real food because it's an artificial nutritional product, but as close as possible. Kristen Sweeney: Mm-hmm. Nichola Gokool: and really understanding that was why and that was what's so important to those parents that they and we took the time to understand we know this is scary that you're not able and your child's not able to eat everyday foods at the moment and you're having to administer this artificial product and you want to feel comfortable that you're still giving your child the right food solution, nutritional solution, really digging into what motivating them and some of their challenges and concerns and that's what we only got that through intense but why but why but why and then actually it came to that piece it's not just about the sort of nutritional composition but that broader getting as close to real food as we possibly could and that changed how we develop the products and how we actually ultimately brought it through to markets. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, ⁓ I'm curious, too, when you think about getting into the deeper why across stakeholders, ⁓ is there anything specific in your communication style of doing that that you're using to kind of like disarm them or help them unlock that? there, is it? You know, I think about sometimes we're not even aware of our deepest motivations, right? Until someone kind of helps us maybe surface them. Has that been your experience and what makes that process successful? Nichola Gokool: Yes. Yeah, I think it's back to some of the earlier conversation about building that trust. If you're engaging in that conversation that could be highly emotive, actually building that trust upfront, demonstrating a high level of emotional intelligence that you understand what's important, you understand this is a difficult topic to discuss and then how you frame those questions. It also goes back to active listening. So listening to what the individual is saying and then using that information to frame the next question. So I've heard you say this, tell me more about why that's important or why that might be challenging for you. And I think it's just using that combination of active listening and very, very clear targeted questions with a layer of empathy and emotional intelligence that are sort of the key pieces for me. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. ⁓ And that active listening is so important too. I we work with a lot of experts and executives ⁓ on building content programs and very often some of the gold comes from that offhand comment. I say, wait, wait, wait, let's go back. What did you mean by that? Let's unpack this. And that becomes something that it turns out is like a really core focus. And sometimes I think that's because those things are Nichola Gokool: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: so intrinsic that we have a hard time seeing them as almost separate from ourselves or kind of breaking them out in that way. But yes, by listening carefully, you can kind of pick up on threads that again, maybe aren't the crux of what they're saying. It's kind of fun, know, like an expedition, I guess. Nichola Gokool: Quite. Quite, Yeah. Quite. It's sort of secret mission, isn't it? And I think that's a lot of communications because there's what people say and actually what they don't say. And often it's reading to what they don't say that you want to pick up and that you actually need to tease out because there's often more of an underlying reason that you want to dig into. And that's where the listing comes in or picking up to your point on a throwaway comment. actually no, that's the nugget, that's the bit we need to dig into more. Kristen Sweeney: Yes, definitely. ⁓ This has been great. I want to transition us now to the last word. So this is our lightning round segment. Every guest gets the same five questions. And just go with your gut on these answers. Sound good? All right. Question one, what's your favorite word to say out loud? Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah sure. Brilliant. Engagement. Yeah, so for me, communications is more about and just communicating. It's that concept of engaging and creating that two-way dialogue. So I love using the word engagement. I use it quite a lot. In the work that we do, we produce brilliant content, scientifically rigorous content. But actually, if we don't think about engaging with our stakeholders, it just sits and has the risk of just sitting unused. So it's that concept of this two-way dialogue from an engagement perspective that's really critical. Kristen Sweeney: Question two, what's word you know from reading but you're not quite sure how to pronounce it out loud? Nichola Gokool: So I've obviously practiced saying this word and you've used it a couple of times actually throughout this conversation. So I struggle with the word segue. Now I know how to say it. I know when I read it and I want to be able to say segue but sometimes my brain skips a little bit too advanced and wants to say segue and I really struggle with that word. So I have to pause and correct myself sometimes because it's not spelt. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Nichola Gokool: way that you would say it. for me it's really important. That's why clarity is so critical because actually thinking about the words you want to say and actually being clear on how to pronounce them is important. Extra time and that pause to get it right and not let your brain step in that step too early. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. and maybe taking that little extra beat, you It's funny, isn't it, how your brain just has those patterns. I lived in NYC for years and I still have to slow down to say New York, because otherwise it was probably in the AR. Like, just blur it all together and you'd think after that many years living there, would come naturally, but no, no. What's one phrase or saying you wish could be retired for good? Nichola Gokool: Yeah. ⁓ You Just flow off a tongue, yeah. It's so funny. ⁓ this is an easy one for me, ⁓ omni-channel strategy or omni-channel approach. I know this is controversial given the industry that I work in, but it's a real buzzword and it's been overused so much that I think it's lost any degree of meaning and any meaningful definition. essentially it just means right content, right format, right channel to meet your audiences where they are and in providing them with the content in the format they want to receive it in. Kristen Sweeney: There you go. There you go. Nichola Gokool: And that's what it should be. It's just a communication and engagement strategy. I'm not sure we need a fancy word, but there is that word. I would prefer it was never used. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. What's a communication practice or principle that's non-negotiable for you? Nichola Gokool: Yeah, we've touched on this a little bit already. So that stakeholder first thinking or audience first thinking, so really taking that time to think about who is your audience? What do they need to know? What's the format they want to receive it on? Why should they pay attention? Why this matters to them? And then you use that to inform the way that you craft your communications. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: What's the last thing you read, or watched that really stuck with you? Nichola Gokool: Yeah, so I think we would be remiss not to have a conversation without mentioning AI. ⁓ So an article that I read towards the end of last week actually was about increased patient use of AI in healthcare. ⁓ And this was a UK report actually. So one in four people in the UK are now using AI to better understand their symptoms, interrogate and interpret results that they may have got from their doctor and also to decide when. they should seek advice from a doctor. So that's quite scary. And then in addition to that, doctors and clinicians are also using AI to stay abreast of scientific research, scientific guidelines, et cetera. And the bit that really terrified me, but I think is also true because I know I do it myself. When we do, we're now doing our online searches. I know, and I think many people are doing this now, we're reading the AI summary box. ⁓ at the top of a search without clicking on those individual links. So we're relying on an AI to actually provide us with that summary of research. So I was contemplating this, what that means for me in my career now and the role that I do from a MedCon perspective. And I think it now really has to change the way that we're thinking about developing communication solutions. Because ultimately, any content we create now is going to be read twice. So once by a human and once by a large language model. And if we reflect back on the conversation we've just been having about stakeholders and this stakeholder first thinking, does it now mean that a large language model and an AI platform is one of our stakeholders? Now, arguably, yes, it does. And we have to think about making sure the communications we're developing are large language model readable. the irony is not lost on me that actually now we're creating communications with a platform, an AI tool, a robot, a chatbot in mind, and making sure that we meet their needs and that need from a communication perspective. So it'd be interesting to see how that sort of evolves, but it really resonated with me just thinking about how people are changing the way they're interacting healthcare information now and where AI is coming into play a more critical role actually. Kristen Sweeney: is interesting and I think, you know, interesting to think about the effort put into, you as you talked about that precise messaging and then knowing that that can get maybe the gist is, let's say best case scenario, the gist is still there. Maybe some of the exact language is there, right? But there's definitely the opportunity for it to be kind of scrambled or summarized or so all of that care you took into. Nichola Gokool: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Precise messaging is a little up for grabs. ⁓ I do like though how you talked about it as one more stakeholder. think that's the best. To me that approach doesn't inspire panic or red or a lot of the kind of big existential feelings that I think honestly communicators are grappling with right now is okay, this is one more. We've got all these people and we have this technology. Nichola Gokool: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bye. Twice, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Kristen Sweeney: And it is one of many. is not everything we do suddenly needs to shift because at the end of the day, it's a, whether you think of it as a filter or a third party intermediary, if you will, you're still trying to reach patients. I like that framing. Nichola Gokool: fights. Yes. Absolutely, yes. Yes, exactly. Kristen Sweeney: Nicola, thank you so much for joining us today. If our listeners want to learn more about you, is there somewhere that they can find you? Nichola Gokool: Yeah, absolutely, just on LinkedIn. So yeah, please search for my name. It's Nicola Gokul and you can connect with me on LinkedIn and always available for a message or a conversation. Kristen Sweeney: Thank you so much for coming on the show today. It great having you. Nichola Gokool: Great, thank you so much for your time and thanks for the opportunity.