Latest / the Unvarnished Edit / Episode 16 - Microdosing Joy: Practical Steps with Jessica Flowers (Joy 2 of 4)

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Episode 16 - Microdosing Joy: Practical Steps with Jessica Flowers (Joy 2 of 4) · the Unvarnished Edit

0:00
Welcome to season two, episode four of The Unvarnished Edit, where two friends talk about what it's actually like to live an adversity-filled life.
Be prepared to laugh, possibly cry, and swear along with us.
0:12
This is Angie, and today's episode is the second in our joy arc with our guest, Jessica, where we discuss capturing childlike joy Good morning hello.
0:25
How are you? I'm good.
0:27
Are you excited for our first guest ever? so excited.
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We, we're like real podcasters now.
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We have guests that we send professional scheduling emails to, and all sorts of real adult things.
0:42
I know.
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Like we asked for, yeah, of us.
0:45
Cr- you know what? Me too.
0:48
Me too.
0:48
Like not only are we are in our second season, but we did all of the, you know, kind of initial episodes for each of the arcs, which is, you know, kind of ex- kind of exciting there to start each one of these.
1:03
And today will be not only our first guest, but our second episode of the first of the arc.
Yeah.
1:12
excited And I'm excited.
I'm not super excited talking about Joy, 'cause I mean, y'all know and we've had this discussion before that Joy isn't always the easiest thing for Jaelene and I to access.
1:26
I said that so lightly.
Like it's not the easy thing.
No, it's actually quite difficult.
And yeah, incredibly difficult.
1:36
Something that we probably have to put way more effort into than, It's a lot Than we would like to.
I know, right? Or fearful or pissed.
I can actually access anger, I think, a little bit more than I can access joy, and that's saying a lot.
For That's saying a lot.
But when we were putting the kind of, I guess, storyboard thing together, one of our thoughts is okay, so who could we tap to bring in the conversation of accessing joy? What does that even look like in action? And both of us thought of one person.
For sure And that is our guest today, Jessica Flowers.
So Jessica is a friend and a colleague of ours for years now.
And she has always...
Like, if I have anything creative or ooh, you know, what could that look like and how can we make this fun, Jessica is my go-to.
She just really just exudes that whole, "Let's tap into it," "We can do this."
Envious of the ability, honestly, the ability to tap in to that creativity, and that joy, piece of life.
And I think that there's a lot of us out there that have experienced a lot of adversity that, probably have the same thing.
In my trainings I say, "You know, we don't heal from trauma so we can handle trauma."
That we got.
We heal from trauma so we can access joy and happiness, because those are harder emotions to tap into when our brains and our bodies are wired for protection, right? Anything to add, Jaelene, before think we I move into it? really...
I think for me, creativity is a, micro step into joy.
Like, I can, when I am creative or I give myself time and space to be creative, that's when I recognize that I feel really content or happy or, in awe.
And so I think that's one of the reasons why I, when we talked about Jessica, I was like, "Yeah, absolutely," because when I think of creativity and art and honestly just a joyful energy level, Hmm Jessica's S so I'm excited to hear and have this conversation with her.
Yeah, and being able to ignite it in others.
You know, seeing Jessica in action, trainings and other things, like you just can't help but to be- yeah, to be joyful around her.
So with all of that said, we are gonna hand the mic over to Jessica to introduce herself because none of us like reading stale bios.
Oh my goodness.
Thank you guys so much.
Wow.
What...
Wow, what an introduction already.
I just, I really appreciate hearing that from you because I think the creativity piece is something that I really live into and lean into.
So to hear that it is resonating with and inspiring other people is really helpful.
I think creativity for me, you know, kinda came about in my life as a coping tool, and definitely a source of joy.
I like what you said, Jaelene, about creativity kind of being a stepping stone or a pathway to joy.
And I would say as far as a bio or an introduction I think that creativity has really been at the cornerstone of my life and my work.
My sort of working life began, as a high school musical theater teacher, which is highly creative.
I was a theater major in college.
And then after teaching, I went on to work for Free Arts of Arizona, which is now Art Heals of Arizona, for about 15 years, and learned so much about the practice of creativity, and I think that's important to, put a pin in, in that creativity, and I think probably joy are a practice.
So and now, you know, I use all those skills that I learned to train people and to design programs and work to help support youth-serving nonprofits here in Phoenix.
And I'm also a mom, and I'm also a choreographer.
So it's just sort of a random assortment of creative and youth-focused activities.
So thanks for having me.
I think it's such a gift to have folks ask you questions.
I was thinking about that on my drive here.
I don't think there's a better gift we can give people than taking time to really ask them questions.
So thanks for making that space.
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
So have you always been joyful? I Is it just something that is like natural No, when-- I would say absolutely not.
When I was younger, my mom tells this story about going in for, I think it was third or fourth grade teacher conferences the teacher pull her aside and say, "I just have to mention one more thing to you.
I feel like Jessica just doesn't like me.
She's just so serious all the time in school."
And it's true.
6:42
I was.
I think I, I was a very good student and I was a very serious student and I felt like joy and playfulness and being a serious student, like those couldn't go hand in hand.
So I was just very focused on my studies and paying attention and doing well and sitting up straight and all those things that people tell you to do, when you're a student.
Probably because I'm a people pleaser I think that was coming out at a really early age.
7:10
And if I'm honest I think I carried that with me for a long time.
Like I remember moving into nonprofit work thinking I am way too creative for this space.
Like I need to tone it down and be more serious No that I can fit into this environment that I'm working in.
In fact, I remember being a participant in a training like my first or second year that I worked at Free Arts and was wearing some sort of like brightly colored dress a woman came up and tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Hmm, we're making some big choices about our wardrobes, aren't we?" And I was like, "Okay, guess that's my cue to tone it down a little bit."
And I did for a really, really long time.
7:58
I bet mm-hmm, and then I feel like I don't know.
I guess somewhere along the way I sort of rediscovered or gave myself permission to be little more joyful and also to actively work towards joy, you know? 'Cause like you guys said, I don't think that joy comes naturally to anyone probably.
I mean, I think we all need to work at it to some extent, you know? Yeah Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I would counter, I think joy does come to us naturally, and then the world gets to us, right? Because my whole, life...
I mean, I, I have always known that I have an issue, being excited with things, you know, and actually experiencing the excitement in, some really cool things.
Those have always been a issue.
But it wasn't until my granddaughter was born last year that it was like, I wanna have fun with her.
Mm-hmm.
I wanna...
You know? And everything is, such a big deal with her, because she's a baby and she's learning, right? Her whole entire life.
So, like, all of these new things, she gets so excited every time she does something new.
She's super proud of it, right? And just the things.
And I was like, wow, like, I have to intentionally be in this space.
And I'm not talking about being present in the space.
I had to intentionally open up to being as excited as she was for it, and it was super foreign to me.
It was like...
I mean, I remember having fun with my kids when they were younger, but there was so many other things that were going on, you know, taking care of it.
I think something with her, I didn't- I don't have to teach her to do things, right? I don't have to discipline her.
It's, I can just love her and have fun and be in that space, and I had a problem, being, like, actively being open to having fun and enjoying it.
Yeah.
So, ooh, I think it naturally have you done, you say that like maybe you've made some changes or like something has shifted since you made that discovery.
Do you feel like something's shifted, Angie? Well, no, just it was just really the awareness of having to intentionally be open to having fun, and then how little fun I actually enjoy, I actually do.
But we've been working on it now for a year, and then in this year we, intentionally had that as, one of our intentions for the year, right? Of really trying to, access joy and be present in that.
So yeah, it's been a lot of work.
I just think originally when we come into this space, into this world, as children, it's natural for them to access that if they're in a space that allows it, Yeah.
Do you And so, like, how do we do that as adults? If it's a space that it feels safe, and it feels safe for a while, and then it starts to not feel safe because people comment about your clothes or, how you're acting or you're, you feel too big for the space that you're in, or other people are serious and working hard, so why do you get to be joyful? And I think that's something that I really experienced during my working life was like, why do you get to be joyful? If you are feeling joyful, then you must not be working hard enough if you have the space for joy.
Yeah And I don't know where those messages come from, but yeah know, I'm thinking about it.
The conversation about color is really interesting actually, that I hadn't really thought about before.
That wearing bright colors and being bold in an outfit choice somehow associated with being too happy or too into yourself or too...
I don't know exactly the right word I'm looking for.
look at me Yeah It's like that.
And it's so funny 'cause I always wear, I'm like gray and black all the time, gray and black.
And then I'll go through phases where I'm like, "I- I'm not gonna let myself buy any more gray shirts," like I'm banned from buying them, right? And every once in a while I'll wear, like, the color red, and without fail, every time I do, someone will stop me and just be like, "You look beautiful in that color" or, "That color looks so good on you."
I know that because I've been told that so many times that's probably a color that matches me or whatever with all that stuff, I'm so deeply uncomfortable because I'm being noticed.
It's like I'm...
Mm-hmm.
Someone's paying attention to me and I'm so uncomfortable with that.
I'm really more comfortable in being inconspicuous.
And somehow I think those things are innately, deeply tied together, like, wanting to be quiet and inconspicuous and unseen is part of not being able to experience joy because joy and happiness is loud.
You have to laugh, you have to be expressive.
It requires movement.
It's big, right? And being inconspicuous doesn't align with that Yeah.
I'm glad you said that, Jaelene, because I've also been thinking a lot about how big joy is and how big it feels, and honestly, what a high bar it is.
This year actually, I went to this vision board making workshop in November, and we had to draw, a tarot card to be the inspiration for our board.
And I drew a card that said joy, and I was like, "Oh, that's actually a really good vision for me for this year," because I haven't really been feeling a lot of joy in the last couple of years.
I think I've been feeling a lot of mini moments of anxiety as my kids go through some big changes and, I've been feeling a sense of gripping control, and joy feels like the opposite of that.
So I was like, "Okay, yes, I'm gonna put this on my vision board, and I'm gonna lean into this."
And I looked at it, I think in June, the beginning of June, and I was like, "Am I, am I there? Like, am I living into joy?" And then I was like, "That feels so huge to me."
Like, it actually feels sort of unachievable.
So what are, like, the mini moments? And I think creativity, like you mentioned, is one of them, but I also think a, a sta- to joy is delight.
like, delight to me feels like something that's small and kind of quiet and something that you keep to yourself and you don't have to share with everybody else.
But it For sure.
gives you that same, hit of happy hormone and makes you go, "Oh, okay, like, I feel kind of good today."
So I've been thinking about, what is the formula for delight rather than, what is the formula for joy? I wonder what you guys think about that.
I love that.
Yeah, I love that.
I think any time that we can break things down to mini steps.
And when you were talking about delighted re- Like, when I talk about regulation and all of those kinds of things, I always say whatever makes your heart happy.
If it makes your heart happy.
And really, that, to me is kinda like the delight piece, right? Like, when I go to Dutch Brothers and I get my coffee, and I take that first sip of it and my whole body's like, "Oh, that's so good.
I love it," right? And to be able to kind of hold that feeling because this world right now is...
We have all of these messages of division and hate and fear and people hurting across the world that it is really heavy.
Yeah.
And accessing joy can feel like, why do you get to access it when other people are suffering? Yep Right? But why do we always have to suffer 'cause other people are suffering? Also a good question And how can we be the light to help other people not suffer if we're just gonna suffer with them, right.
Yeah.
Yeah I like the word deli- first of all, saying the word delightful is, actually delightful, Totally like, it's of those words that like sound like what you say.
Yeah.
little onomatopoeia, yeah yes.
Yes, and it's always for me, if I use that word, it also comes with like, I can't just say, "Oh, this is delightful."
I always have to add some sarcasm to it, where it's like, "Is this, dare I say, delightful," right? 'Cause, I can't even, let myself, like, uh, uh, you know.
But also, when you were talking about joy feeling too big, been thinking about that as I've been trying to do some work and reading as we go into these joy episodes, and I really have come to see that I do...
When we talk about window of tolerance, we always talk about it in terms of stress and anxiety.
I don't have a window of tolerance for joy, and I think part of that is because I haven't allowed myself to micro dose happiness and delight and fun.
And so it's like when joy shows up, it's so huge, I don't have the bandwidth to manage it.
I don't know how to regulate inside myself.
And so I've been trying to be more present in the micro moments of happiness so that I can build up a tolerance huge happiness, And I think that's...
It made me sad to recognize that when big moments of happiness come, I'm so overwhelmed that I can't absorb them because I don't have the coping skills, and to recognize that I've gotta build coping skills on both side of the scale, right? thinking about that in terms of parenting too, of like, I need to teach my kids to how to cope with feeling good.
Like, let's Yeah to feel good.
It's okay to feel good.
Even if the news sucks, even if your friend's having a hard time.
Even if you had a bad math grade, but then you went to your art class and you felt happy, you're allowed to feel happy Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, it's a big emotion, right? And like all big emotions, we have to make space to allow ourselves to feel them.
And you guys have talked about this on the podcast before, I know, about big emotions and how tricky they can feel.
And, joy Yeah falls into that category.
And I'm glad you brought up, window of tolerance, Jaelene, 'cause I, I wrote in my notes, like priming for joy and delight.
Like, how do we prime ourselves for that? And I think, in the same way that I prime myself to be more regulated throughout the day, I think that same priming helps us, can help us, helps me at least, be ready for joy and delight.
So things like, I, I try to work out every morning 'cause that is like the only way I can function throughout the day and not be totally dysregulated and anxiety-stricken.
And, I, at the beginning of this year, made a goal to try to smile throughout as much of my workout as possible.
And in my mind, that helps me prime myself for joy throughout the day.
Because if I don't do that, then I have on, like concentration face, and then I feel like my face gets stuck like that for the rest of the day, and like is not in a very good position to feel any kind of positive feelings, you know? Yeah.
is like a Yeah weird thing, but for me it works Yeah, I do the same thing.
Not the smiling thing, 'cause I have a whole entire thing about this.
But understand intentionally when I'm at the gym in the morning is to actually rest into presence so that I'm present, right? Because I deal with dissociation so heavily that being present in this space is the most important piece.
But if I don't intentionally do that, I am in that concentrated focus, and what I go to the gym for doesn't actually give me what I need, right? That space.
Yeah, it was like when you're, priming for joy what is that? What does that look like? But I can see how can I, what would I do? think I would probably doodle maybe, color.
Love that.
Yeah.
time set aside, 'cause I Yeah.
then when I'm coloring, I can't help but feel like such a child.
I get embarrassed almost, like, where I'm Yeah "I'm sitting here coloring."
But I Oh no, we will making fun of me.
It's not like anyone in my No is like, "What are you doing?" It's all my internal dialogue is so harsh when I take time to do something silly.
I think that's a big part of it.
I, Yes internal voice is "You are...
Why are you wasting your time doing this right now?" And I actually had gotten some...
Someone gave me, one of those dot art things for Christmas, Mm-hmm.
I love doing it.
It's, so mindless and I love seeing the colors come together and picking my favorite next little crystal bead that I wanna do based on the color.
But I got about halfway through it and I said, "What am I gonna do with this when I'm done?" Like, what do you do with it when you're done? And one of my friends was like, "Hang it up."
And my other friend Yeah "Roll it up and put it in a closet."
And then someone else was like, "Enjoy it while you do it."
And for me, it was almost like I couldn't finish it because it wasn't gonna have a purpose when it was done.
It's half done now.
I quit working on it.
Oh And it's sitting on my counter.
I walk by it all the time it's like it doesn't have a purpose, so why would I sit and work on it? Even though I know when I do it, I enjoy that time.
Right.
Right.
Would you say you're delighted by that time, Jaelene? Dare I say, Dare I say.
But another way I think we can prime ourselves is to be both looking for and then actively creating those micro doses of delight that you guys talked about.
And, I started that journey several years ago, when I moved out of my full-time job and I was really experiencing a lot of anxiety about that transition.
And it was spring, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I can sit inside and be anxious and miss spring in Phoenix, or I can get outside and I can take a walk."
But I couldn't just take a walk.
I needed a goal.
So I made myself a scavenger hunt where I was like, "Okay, you're gonna go outside and you're gonna see if you can find a worm, a bird, a heart-shaped leaf, and a something else.
That's your goal for the walk."
And so I would go on a walk and I would, try to find these things, and if I found them, I would take pictures of them.
and then that turned into just every time I walked, I would look for those cool or unique things in nature or wildlife or something like that.
And I realized that I was getting really excited about it and, my husband would come home from work and I'd be like, "Look what I saw today.
There was a cactus blossom and this lizard was doing push-ups."
And he was like, "Wow! Like, you're getting really excited about nature."
And I was like, "I am getting excited about nature.
You're right."
And that felt like, those little moments of delight.
But I had to seek it out, right? It's like gratitude, right? You can look for the things that you're grateful for or you can look for the things that you're pissed off about.
But for me, I think it was really looking for that delight and, other ways I don't know if you guys know this about me, but I love puppets.
Like, I love puppets.
I have several puppets.
They each have personalities and voices.
And many, many years ago when I was at Free Arts, the puppets did a, commercial for the tax credit for Free Arts, and it was, like, the thing that I was the most proud of during my 15 years at Free Arts was this stupid commercial that is still on YouTube that I I love and, it I did all the puppets, and I thought it was amazing.
And so last year, actually, at I'm doing some work for right now, they were like...
I don't know how it came up.
I introduced them to the puppets and they were like, "Can the puppets be our mascot for the conference that we're having?" And I was like, "Oh my God, yes, the puppets can."
And so I got to spend six months with the puppets and doing the puppets, and the puppets did all these commercials, and they spoke at the conference.
And I was, like, delighted, Yeah that several times a week I got to be these puppets and have conversations with the puppets.
so now I'm like, okay, there was such a marked difference in my mood during the time that I got to do the puppets and during times when I don't get to be puppets, that I was like, okay, I need to figure out how to bring more of this, like you said, Jaelene, like childlike silliness into my world unabashedly because, you know, most S that work in nonprofit would be like, "Why are you using puppets? That's crazy."
Yeah.
but now I just don't Yeah anymore.
I feel like I'm at the point where I'm like, I don't care.
It's fun I don't think I can care anymore.
Like, I think at this point, caring is detrimental.
Yes caring- Yeah yeah.
I'm at that point, when I would sit with Peanut, and it was like, "Why can't I access this? Why is this not in my day to day? What happened?" Hmm.
I know that when I was a child, because I can see it in my daughter and now her daughter, Hmm.
That was a natural thing.
I, can see pictures.
I know.
My grandpa called me a little shit on a routine basis.
That means I was doing things, right? I was having fun.
My grandma was like, "Why aren't you putting, put shoes on? You can't be in the rocks."
I'm dirty, you know? So I know that I knew how to do that.
But as an adult, like, well, that's just, you have things to do.
And I know that was modeled, right? Like, my mom does not rest.
Yeah I joke about it, but she still records to this day Young and the Restless.
And she will watch it on her DVR, and she will sit on the edge of the couch in the middle of the day, on the edge of it, and she will fast-forward and, I mean, soap operas, once you remove the commercials, are only, like, 37 minutes anyway.
She will fast-forward through whatever storylines and she's like, "Okay, I'm done," and that was my rest for the day, and it was like, lady, that wasn't...
I go to the bathroom longer than you took to watch Young and the Restless, right? But when I got together with my husband, it was like I'd be scrolling on Facebook or whatever, and he'd come in, and I immediately put it down because I shouldn't be, like, resting or doing things.
And I feel like joy as an adult is that, same piece.
But I know that, when we do trainings and when I've seen you do trainings and just the space that you're able to create with other adults, I'm sure it's probably easier to do it for others than it is to do for ourselves.
What's the intentional space you go in to create for them so they can access that kind of fun and joy? That's such a great question, Angie.
I don't know.
I think that I learned a lot about how to orchestrate safe and engaging spaces for others through my work at Free Arts, 'cause I think Free Arts as an organization has that built into their culture.
So I inherited a lot of that when I came into the organization, and then tried to take that intentionality further.
But I think when you get to be a part of a group of people in a creative organization, you realize that creativity, like we said at the beginning of this conversation, can really be a vehicle to invite joy, playfulness, delight, pleasure, a lightness, right? Something that's not quite so serious, even if we're talking about very serious things, right, which we do when we train folks on trauma and ACEs.
When we bring creativity in, I think that it can help, make those topics feel more accessible and a little bit lighter.
So I don't know.
I feel like creativity might be the key there.
And then I think the other thing is also just what do I feel like? If I'm really good and really regulated, and I can pay attention to what I need, then I'm able to help lead other people through that.
Whether that's a seventh inning stretch where everybody has to get up or, you know, I've been known to lead mini dance breaks.
And then letting people know that they, of course, have permission to not participate if that's not something that feels safe and accessible for them.
And that permission's important because, that can feel threatening to some folks too.
And I think when it comes to creativity, Free Arts, their sort of slogan was, "There's no mistakes in art."
That s- I Thank you.
helps set the scene for folks that maybe don't feel necessarily creative that, you know, this is not about creating something beautiful.
It's not about a product.
Whatever we're asking you to do, whether it's draw a picture of how stress feels in your body or, stand up and do a little dance that tells me something about you, there's no right or wrong answers.
It's just a way to use a different part of our brains and bodies.
Thinking about how much easier it is to create that for someone else than it is for myself.
Like, when I think about, my youngest, who's the only kid that still lives at home, she is so creative.
Always drawing, she's in art class or m- pottery or she's got canvases that she just does whatever she wants on it.
She wears, within acceptable norms, whatever she wants.
And when it comes to especially her clothes and her hair, I often will say to people, "Kids have so many decisions made for them.
They have so many things that they're told to do, gotta have some spot where they can express themselves," right? So I've let that happen through outfits or hair color or, and then art at home.
And if she says, "Mom, you know, I wanna make this thing.
Can we go to Michaels?" Or...
I'm like, "Sure."
We get, immediately car, we go down there, we pick up all the supplies, we clean off the space.
We, you know, she's got beads in every color and paint and every, and all of these things, and it's so important to give that to her.
And then for me, it's like, well, I'll give myself these 30 seconds to doodle on this thing.
There's such a dramatic difference in what I'm willing to give her to be creative Mm-hmm.
I'm willing to give myself to be creative.
And hearing you talk about, your scavenger hunt walk, I walk every day and I'm always either listening to a podcast or listening to a book or speaking into a voice note.
I think one of the moves for me might be to dial back the purposefulness of everything I do.
What if I just got bored? What if I just Yes a walk and got bored for a minute, what would happen next? Your point, Jaelene, about, we give these opportunities to other people, but we don't take them for ourselves is so valid, and it makes me think about, know, I was working for an arts organization during COVID.
Like, there were so many opportunities.
There would be a giant art room that anybody could walk into at any time and make whatever they wanted, and I never did it.
Yeah, during-- No.
33:12
Not for me.
I would do, something for work, or I would bring Yeah.
But it wasn't Yeah COVID when we literally couldn't go to work, and we had to stay home, we decided to start, we called it the caregiver call.
It was supposed to be for folks that were, caring for kids in group homes 'cause that was the population that we served, to be able to take a 30-minute break and do something for themselves.
It ended up being for all different kinds of caregivers.
Some folks were staying at home taking care of parents.
Some folks were taking care of their own kids.
Some folks were coming from those agencies where they were taking care of a vast number of kids.
But it wasn't until I had to lead once a week a 30-minute art project for other people that I started creating for myself.
And Sandi Cimino, other friend and colleague, would lead it with me, and we at the end of COVID, we-- I think we led it for a year, had 50 different art projects that we had made over the course of a full year, and we were like, "Oh my gosh."
Like, this brought so much joy to our lives to just, like, look at this pile of things that we made with our own hands.
But it took a global pandemic, and it took us having to be the leaders of something, you know, doing something for a greater purpose than just sitting down and doing it for ourselves and a regular schedule in order to make it happen.
But I also think that there was an extra layer of joy in that because we got to do it with other people, and I think that Mm-hmm.
not to be forgotten, and we should not shame ourselves for not taking the time for ourselves to be bored or be creative or whatever because we are much more inclined to do those things when we do them with others, because of accountability, but also because of belonging, you know? 'Cause those things are exponentially more delightful and joyful when you get to do them with other people, you know? That's so true.
That is so true.
So Jaelene, we have repeated so many times that it's so hard for us, and but there are things that we do.
Yes, it is difficult for us to access the large feelings of joy, but we are very capable of microdosing we need to start a joy journal in the vein of a gratitude journal, right? To start because maybe I'm just not...
It's happening, but I'm Yes present for it, right? because I know there are things, it, I know there's things right? me happy and feel good throughout the day, right? Um, delightful? dare I say.
On a regular basis, pretty much every morning, the first sip of coffee is the best feeling ever, right? I'll frame this and let you know how, what it is for me.
But is there something that always makes you feel delightful? For me, if I see a rainbow, I'm always gonna take a picture of it.
I'm always gonna send it to someone.
Yeah I love rainbows.
Love them.
I get so excited when I see them.
So I'm curious if you guys have, a thing.
Like, I will always be happy when this thing happens.
Oh, I love that question.
I, can I have two? Yeah This happened to me last night, that's why it's top of mind.
When I see my, not even my child, when I see any child, probably any person, but it's better if it's a child, doing something that they are, like their soul is supposed to be doing.
Like my kid plays the drums, and he joined a new band last night, and so I got to see him play the drums with a new group of people, and I was like, "You go."
Like, you could just see it in his body and it was so awesome.
So that always makes me feel delighted.
Then I travel with a little tin that are, they say emergency googly eyes, and there's googly eyes of all shapes and sizes, and they're self-adhesive.
A friend got them for me years ago, but I keep them in my bag, when I go on trips.
And then when I'm feeling grouchy, like at the airport when you're waiting, you find a place to stick them that's funny, and then you take a picture of it.
it's funny because it brings you joy in the mo- it brings me joy, and then it continues because I'm like, "Heh heh heh, who sat in that airplane seat and saw my tray table with googly eyes after I did? Was it the cleaning crew? Was it the person that was sitting there next?" I don't know.
So, um, googly eyes and watching kids do something that they love to do are my two.
I What about you, Angie? I love that.
I love that.
Um, seeing animals.
So like whenever, like if I see...
When we go up to the property, we routinely see prairie dogs, and cottontails, and jackrabbits, and the antelope that are out there, and then sometimes deer and elk, and it does not make a difference.
I can see one, you know what I mean? And every single time I see a cottontail, and I see numerous amounts of them, and they're like, "Oh, look at there."
Like, it just is...
Yeah.
And then we have to recant all of the animals that we saw when we, That's so get back home.
all three of us just talked about something that is an unexpected moment.
A googly eye, an animal out of nowhere, a rainbow pops up.
Like, this is an unexpected moment which is contrasting to being able to cultivate it, which leads me to priming yourself for it is probably the most important thing.
Because the unexpectedness of something popping in front of you and just giving you that, "Oh, that was great," is actually the thing we all just expressed makes us feel the best Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I think we can train our brains, right? Like with all neuroplastic things, we can train our brains to look for those moments of delight and, tell ourselves a different story about how we experience delight and joy throughout our day.
And maybe not set the bar so high.
Maybe we don't have to Yeah air with both of our arms in the air.
Maybe that's not joy.
Maybe that doesn't have to be joy right now Yeah Yeah.
That's a really good Yeah.
a really good point I love that.
I, so what I've gotten today is the microdosing, right? But the changing the way that we think about that.
But also, Jaelene, your being able to hold the capacity for it, right? And that's all part of neuroplasticity as well is we need to actually train our body and our brains to be able to hold that feeling just a little bit longer.
And we talked about this, I think, last season when we talked about...
I think it was when we talked about our safety template, but recognizing that we, that there are, that our bodies and brains are just trying to keep us safe, and they're just trying to protect us.
And at some point in our lives, probably multiple points over our lives, joy became a dangerous feeling to have because something, told us that it was dangerous, right? And our body now feels that way about it when we have that kind of conversation, which is why the microdosing feels like, oh, we can microdose.
We'll even just change the word to delight because that feels more accessible, right? And we talk about joy as being such this big thing, but when you really break down those steps, recognizing that we all have the capacity, just like we have the capacity for safety and protection, we have the capacity for happiness and enjoyment and joy, but we have to give ourselves permission, start looking for it in the small ways, right? Um, microdosing and then being able to microdose capacity.
Yeah will hold this for five minutes.
I will hold this for 20 minutes.
I will hold this for 30 minutes.
I will try something new and creative.
Jaelene's gonna finish it, finish the art project, put it on her refrigerator, and take a picture.
I am Yeah.
And then we're gonna post the link in the show notes down.
that...
Yeah.
But yeah, 'cause we are really, we do access that.
We're not miserable people.
Hmm So, right? I have a So we have to...
guys to- do I have time to ask you a question? Absolutely, always How do you feel, or how do you respond to other people's joy? If you're around someone for a minute who's very joyful, how does that make you feel? 'Cause I have some feelings about that too.
So uncomfortable.
So uncomfortable Mm-hmm.
Do you know why or what's happening inside of You f- it's so funny 'cause if someone is just listening to this and not watching it on YouTube, the face that Angie and I just made as you asked that question, both of us were like, no."
We backed up.
We, yeah But you know what's weird? It's the unexpectedness because if I'm in a space, like a training where we're trying to create joy, I, it, I love it when I see other people feeling joyful, right? when it comes unexpectedly.
Like, uh, it surprises me, or someone is, you know, watching something funny and they burst out laughing, or they Hmm.
excited about something.
Excitement probably makes me feel the most uncomfortable.
Like, Hmm.
you know, they see something and they get so excited for it and I immediately wanna tamp it down and be like, "Don't.
No, no, no.
Don't get too much.
Don't.
That might change."
Like, "Don't get excited about that."
I think excitement is probably the Yeah.
makes me go, "Ooh, no, that's, we don't do that."
What about you, Angie? 'Cause both of us both just...
Yeah See, I love it in my kids, like when they are excited and they're like, yeah, when they are super joyfu- I absolutely love it.
It brings me joy, right? To be able to see, I can live vica- vicariously.
Adults is a whole entire different story.
It is like, whoa, calm down.
Yeah.
Literally it's it to yourselves.
down.
Stop it But I do wonder, thinking about it, like, how many times have I...
I was thinking earlier, Jaelene, when you said something and I was thinking, like, you're like, "It's that big joy that you're like, 'Whoa.'"
And I'm like, you, we wanna turn the dial down.
Yeah It's so much in our body that it's so loud, we wanna turn the dial down because it's that kind of uncomfortableness.
And I've, I wonder how many times I've unintentionally turned down someone's joy And that's exactly why I was asking that question, Angie, 'cause I feel like I do that on a regular basis.
I think that it comes from my strategic strength.
I have like in the Gallup StrengthsFinder, strategic is one of my things, and part of strategic is like making sure that we've identified all of the barriers to something.
And so I feel like when anybody gets excited about anything, especially in my family, especially my husband, which I hate this, that I do this, I'm always like, "Okay, okay, okay, hold on."
Like, "Don't get too big and excited right now because we haven't thought about this, this, this, this, and this."
Or like my son woke up this morning and he's like, "I'm going hiking with my friends at a creek."
And I was like, "That's great."
And I allowed myself that one moment, and then I was like, "It's really hot today, so you're gonna need to make sure that you have all the sunscreen."
And I'm like, what the hell? Like, why? Why do I have to do that? And, I don't know.
It feels habitual to me, but I feel like this conversation has helped me be like, I loved what you said about can you hold it longer? Can you hold it longer for yourself? But can I hold it longer for other people Yeah.
tamp it down and not interfere? Can I just let them be and let them have their joy? It doesn't take anything away from me, you know? Yeah I've been really trying to work really hard on, like, "Okay, I feel this way.
Where is it in my body," right? And Mm-hmm.
"All right, just I love you, I love you, I lo-," like wherever I find it, right? Sadness or stress or anxiety, and just really trying to find that spot, put my hand there, and say, "I love you, I love you," ri- right? Whatever.
This is so woo-woo.
This is so embarrassing.
And so I It's not embarrassing at all I good am feeling like if I could find...
If next time I feel joy, if I could just take a second to say, "Okay, where do I feel this in my body?" And just give myself that amount of time to be present before I dismiss it and say, "Okay, go away now," right? That might help it expand a little bit if I also appreciate it at the same time, the same way that I try and, thank you, anger, for showing up and showing me that I feel a certain way about this, right? This is helpful to me.
'Cause I really am a very avoidant person, so I've been working really hard on not avoiding my feelings.
And so just, you know, same back to what I said at the beginning of this, I'm avoiding good and the bad, and I tend to focus on how I manage the bad.
Or not bad, but the negative feelings and whatever, and I need to Yeah that same attention and intention to the other side of the scale.
I'm s- hyper-focused on one side and not the other, and I think I need the balance Mm-hmm.
I Yeah, I love that.
I love that this has been delightful Yes.
And you know what I love has come out of this is when you, Jaelene, when you and I thought about who could we, you know, ask for to help us in this joy conversation, Jessica was our first thought.
Like immediately, there wasn't even a hesitation.
And what we have found is that she has struggled and still struggles with accessing joy in her life.
So you can, we can have all of that, right? Like it is a space where one, we can cultivate it, and two, we probably give it too big of an idea as far as like we think of it as so far out there.
Like that it's such a big thing that we can't access it, but that we do.
And what are those kinda like little microdoses? But I love the fact that like we immediately thought of Jessica.
There was no question.
Like she was the one.
We had to think of other ones.
And and she sucks at it too sometimes.
yeah.
Yeah, and she struggles with it too.
That's amazing.
much better.
'Cause I often call myself the fun sucker at day camp, right? Yes that's just how I am.
Someone says they're having fun and I will find a way to end it.
And, Yeah It's really gratifying to hear that we all have those moments with our kids where we almost are like, "Don't get too excited about this, buddy," right? And to recognize that's us.
Not, we don't have to do that.
There Yeah.
It's our inability to hold the capacity joy available.
We do not have to hit pause on it.
We can allow it to be for other people and ourselves.
I love it.
Jessica, do you have anything before we close out that you'd like to add? No, just thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for Oh, it's been amazing me and it's true, I mean, the struggle is real.
We didn't even get into my, 10-year journey with extreme anxiety where there was no joy, like zero joy.
So it's accessible for everyone.
It can also be a struggle, I think, for everyone, especially grown-ups, because we don't take the time and we're not necessarily as intentional about it, and you guys have done a great job of really articulating that.
So Yeah.
Thank you so much.
What a great, cool first guest.
know.
know.
know.
is super excited, and set the tone for the rest of the joy series because we Yes have, we have a joyful guest coming on in the next portion of joy.
One of my dear friends who just finds joy everywhere and spreads it to everyone.
It's amazing just to see her move through life and just joy is just her mode.
and so I think this will pair so well with that conversation, some of the insights we've taken out of this.
But creativity is a spot where I am gonna focus some intention in tiny doses uh, send each other some photos of some of those creative things that we do and some of Yeah micro moments of joy and delight that we find.
I think it's great to do that with others, so.
A joy chat Sounds good.
I love it.
I love it.
Thank you so much, Jessica Thanks guys.
bye.
Thank you so much to Jessica.
We had so much fun with that conversation and hope you did as well and could feel the joy that comes from having conversation with Jessica.
Please join us next week where we will be in our second episode of our spirituality series.
We will have another guest, our good friend Brandy, and we will be talking about religious trauma