Latest / Nonprofit411 Podcast / Kind Persuasion: Madeleine Nance on Asking Without the Ick
Transcript
- Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Hello and welcome to the Nonprofit 411 podcast. I am so excited to be with you this week. this is probably my favorite interview of the week because I get to interview my friend Maddie Nance. she goes Madeline Nance, if you're looking her up online. She is from Kind Word and she and I are friends. So we're actually gonna have a conversation. Our biggest challenge during this podcast is going to be keeping it to half an hour, guys. So I'm just gonna go ahead and dive in, and we're gonna get started because it's gonna be so much fun. So, hey Maddie! Madeleine Nance: Hi Sarah. It's very exciting to be on a podcast with a real friend where it's just like chatting with my friend. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, I know it's like recording like so what people don't know if you're listening is that like Maddie and I will get on and we'll be like, yeah, we just want to share something quick and then we'll be on for like an hour, hour and a half, you know, sharing Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: updates about what we're doing and all the exciting things that are happening. And so today you gotta get a kind of witness that. So before we dive into like the deep questions, I like to start with the question, what is your favorite hobby? Madeleine Nance: Do you know what? I was having this conversation yesterday with another mum of young kids. So I've got two little boys, nine and five, and I was saying, I have no hobbies because I feel like I so much of my life is running a business, is looking after my kids. I moved from Australia to the US a couple of years ago, and I still feel like a lot of energy is going into setting up life here. And so I I had this realization that I don't know that I have any hobbies right now, but now that you've reminded me, I've gotta find one and get back into it. Get that sense of self back. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes, yes. Well, and you're in a stage of life where like it does feel like you don't have any hobbies. I think my kids were probably like when they kinda hit ten, eleven, when all of them were like at the age, you know, because when you have a littler one, you still have that gap. that's kinda when I got to dive back into a hobby and on and it didn't look like what it looked like previous to kids. It's like, I get to do a five minute thing here and look, it looks nice, it's fun, okay, let's go. Madeleine Nance: Yes. Yeah, I mean like I'm I'm glad if I get a chance to read a couple of pages of a novel. That's probably my hobby. Just little bits of reading. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Chicken soup for the soul was good for me during that stage of life because it was like two pages and you're done with the whole story. Madeleine Nance: Yeah, yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: All right. Well, Maddie, would you like to tell our audience a little bit about yourself? And you I know you've been in nonprofit work for a long time and you said that you came from Australia. Did you do nonprofit work in Australia? Madeleine Nance: Yeah, so I I've been in the nonprofit industry for coming up to 17 years now. And that started out in Australia. I started in-house. So I worked inside three different organizations as a development director. So I was on the fundraising side managing large programs. I've worked at small organizations like an animal shelter, and then I've worked at a one of the largest national organizations in Australia. So I've done All the things, I get it. But it was actually it was when I had my first son, so nine years ago, that's when I, during my maternity leave, decided to start a business. And and I it the initially I thought I'll just take on little bits here and there, just a bit of fundraising consulting, put the word out there because you know everyone knows everyone in the nonprofit sector. And it just exploded. There's so much need for. That sort of fractional support for someone to just come in and manage something. And so that just grew and grew. I found myself gravitating towards the writing and the communication side. So I became a specialist in fundraising copywriting for about seven years. And then now have moved towards the the strategy side. So now that I'm in the US, I am still doing writing, but it's less writing and it's more strategy these days in training. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, that's interesting. Madeleine Nance: So yeah, the me and my husband joined me as well. So we're now a two person business. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: So, with your husband, did he do non profit work before you did? Like or was did he come out of the corporate sector? Madeleine Nance: In a different way. So he worked in government, but the so Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm. Madeleine Nance: he was technically employed by the government in Australia, but his job was property management. And the properties he managed were hired by nonprofits, like local nonprofits. So he had a lot of contact with different smaller nonprofits who were local to our area, who would rent these spaces for their events and for their like counseling programs, all sorts of things. So he had exposure in a different way, whereas I was On the inside. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. that's fun. That's it's fun to have like somebody that you get to work with, you know, especially if you've like done the business solo and then you get to add someone, you're like, I can like when it comes to strategies, i especially like right, it's hard to brainstorm everything yourself, right? It's hard to come up with Madeleine Nance: Yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: all the ideas and the trial and the error, doing it alone, it's just a little bit less fun. So it's way more Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: fun when you have somebody with ya. Madeleine Nance: And like I would I could do a whole podcast episode on work running a business with your husband. So that's a whole that's Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Ha ha. Madeleine Nance: a whole other conversation. There's pros and cons to that, but Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. Madeleine Nance: no, it's we're enjoying working together. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Well, that's good. That's good. Well, so so you're in copywriting. What what is the thing? Like if you had just a single piece of advice that you would give everyone to start off with when they're thinking about copywriting strategy, what where do we start? Madeleine Nance: So the way the method behind before I even write anything or when I'm training someone to like, okay, let's start from scratch, is get into the mind of the person who's going to be reading your copy. So like before we're even talking words and phrases, let's just think about what's going on in their lives, what are they feeling, what are their fears, what are their dreams, all of that psychology. So it's it's it's empathy. Just take a moment. Put yourself in the shoes of the reader. So do that mind flip before you start. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. It's so fun. We I was doing fundraising for growing teams. I used to be small teams, but it I'm calling it growing teams. We want to be headed Madeleine Nance: Yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: towards the positive now. So but yesterday we actually did an activity where that's what we did. We like broke down like who is your donor? And it was Madeleine Nance: Yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: like, okay, so let's give name their name and what does their average day look like? Hmm, where Does their average a week include going? And then the last question was like, what's gonna prevent them from opening your mail? Right? Madeleine Nance: Yeah. a hundred percent. You it there's so much to it once you you get into the mindset and it's almost like stepping into character, like be that person. And you I love those questions you just said because it's not just like who you it's not just like, you know, you see some of these agencies will do like persona profiling. It's it's not like that. It's not just like, these are the demographics of the person. It's actually like the little moments. What yeah, where are they at in life? Are they like me where Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: No. Madeleine Nance: they're not like little kids and they're just multitasking all the time? Are they stressed? Are they like what what what is going on in their life? And like you said, what are some reasons that they might be like this is I'm I'm not gonna give right now? Like what what could be anticipating those objections and not in the knowledge that this is someone that actually cares about this cause. They care deeply. I believe that people want to give and they want to support causes they care about. So sometimes those objections is just some small barrier that's just actually in the way of something they want to do. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. I love that thinking, like, you know, and and it's always where I go too. Now, interestingly enough, when I do my writing, I generally just pour it out the way that I think it should be. And then I go back and I'm like, Why do they want to care about this? And it usually comes out completely different Madeleine Nance: Okay. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: on the other side of it. But it's hard for me to step into their role until like I see it on paper and then I'm like, I don't I mean, it's just kind of drab, you know. Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Well and I think about it Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: And what go ahead. Madeleine Nance: as we can think about yourself, just you are a consumer, you are a donor, so you are that person. You're not having to imagine something that you don't understand. If you when you are on, I don't know, LinkedIn or Googling something or just out in the world seeing billboards, all the things, you think about what resonates with you and what you find yourself ignoring. Like I I can tell when somebody especially a company, when they're talking company talk, and it's very it's the opposite of empathetic, it's all about themselves. Like we are the the leaders and blah blah blah blah. It's just kind of like, all right. Like I I just don't I don't feel that. I don't feel like, that's something for me that's gonna make a difference in my life. And so I realize I feel those feelings. And so if I can make someone feel like through when I'm working with a cli with an organization, if I can make their supporters feel like we're talking directly to them, this is for them, that's gonna make all the difference and their willingness to support you. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. so when you do copywriting, I have a question, do you just do like do you typically do donor facing stuff or do you also do like press releases and stuff, like it with the same mindset? Madeleine Nance: So I do to be honest, I'm doing less copywriting these days because I I tend to do more on the training and strategy side and s and copywriting could come out of that as it as you know, like if I'm like recently I worked with an organization where we completely did an overhaul of their organizational messaging. So everything from you know, their their taglines, their their home website home pages, even things like When they're going to meet with a grant foundation or a high net worth individual philanthropist, what's their elevator pitch in all of these different situations where they're having to talk about their calls? So we did that and then the writing came out of that. So there was so I would say it was 80% strategy and recommending the direction they go in for their messaging. And then the next 20% was executing that in in the form of copywriting for some. Actual pieces. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. And making sure that it's consistent. It it is Madeleine Nance: Yeah. I was gonna say that a big there's it's so important to spend the time on that thinking, rather than just dive into just we just gotta write something and get it out. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, it's really transformational. What I was gonna say was it's really transformational when you have I call it the red thread, right? When you know what your red thread is and you're going to make sure that it's woven through everything. Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Because one, I think from the organization's perspective, it's so much easier. You know, kind of like, you kind of have this red thread and then you're building around it rather than like building from scratch every time. So Madeleine Nance: Yeah. And I think that Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: so I think it makes it so much easier. Madeleine Nance: I like this red thread idea of because it tell it speaks to consistency and and repetition because we know that people need to see something something like seven times before they're like, I just noticed this for the first time. Well really I actually just thought about it for the first time. So we as we might feel like we're just saying the same thing, like repeating over and over again. But that's that's good. We need to have that consistency of messaging. When I'm coaching people on things like their social media strategy, so especially on LinkedIn, I'll say, come up, we come up with your message. You're known for talking about this thing. And let's think of a thousand different ways to talk about this thing. All the angles, but it's all the red thread, your red thread, it's all in line with one thing that you've become known for. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. I I I agree. I am working with an agency right now and and now it was interesting. So when we started looking at, you know, their messaging, it was really like it was welcoming, but then when I listened to all of their testimonials, like I was like, Man, your testimonials are really, really heavy on community. I came and I was completely accepted and none of their Messaging really like tied in with that, right? And so Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I was like, embrace that. Everybody, like that's what they know you for. Start to speak that language out and back. Like, because I think the other thing that having this type of strategy does is it kind of makes you a beacon, right? You're like, like the light is on. I just think of like a light blinking and it's attracting the people who are looking for that thing. And if you don't have that strategy Madeleine Nance: Yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: behind it, It's just h it's just harder. You know, people aren't looking Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: people know they need something, but they're not quite sure and you haven't given them the words to be able to be like, my gosh, that's it. Madeleine Nance: Yes, it and you've named something one of my favorite strategies. So the the method that I apply that I train people in and I apply in my own writing is called kind persuasion. And the first it's a four-step methodology. The first step is about tapping into it's called I care. It's tapping into what somebody cares about. And one of my favorite ways to find out what somebody cares about is to listen to their language they're using. And it's exactly what you've describing. I interview people and I just I just let them talk and I'm listening for the phrases and the words they use without and this is what's great as well. It tends to be like what you found, sometimes it's actually different to the way that the organization's talking about themselves. And then that's such a finding to be like, this is when I talk to these donors and I'm asking them why what made you give? Like what what do you care about this cause? If they're talking about something that's the reason for giving is different to what you are using in your fundraising messaging, then there's misalignment there and a huge missed opportunity. Whereas if you just listen to some of the phrases they use, one of my favorite things to phrases that I just light up when I hear this is when somebody says, I'm the kind of person who And so that when I hear that, I'm like, yes, listening, because Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. Madeleine Nance: you just get these gold nugget anecdotes there. And one of my favorite ones ever was For an animal organization, somebody said in a this is like in a they say it in cas when it feels like a casual conversation. She said, I'm the kind of person who has old towels in the back of my car when I'm driving around, just in case I come across an injured animal that needs help. And I just thought, that's so beautiful. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. Madeleine Nance: That to me, like this is someone who deeply cares about animals. And so this organization. You know, you've you need to be sharing examples like this, using this kind of language so that when another supporter like this person I spoke to hears that or reads it, she says, Wow, that is me. This is s this is my thing. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. I was gonna say that when I heard that example. Like I I think of so many people and I'm like, yeah, I can I can name that person, right? I can name that Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: type of person because they are they're so gentle and they're just they're just so loving and they want to do this thing. So how do you help people get to that point in the conversation where you find out what they care about? Like how do you are there any tricks that you use to be able to get them to Talk about that. Madeleine Nance: Mm-hmm. So what I'll do, I I start with do you know what I find? So I interview people a lot and people get comfortable as the interview goes on. So you want to start with easy questions that get easier to answer. I know people like to say, use open-ended questions. I actually don't. I at the beginning I'll use easy yes-no questions, and then that there's a follow-up after that. So I could the question could be Do you find yourself thinking about, okay, let's let's go with the animals thing. Do you find yourself like seeing like acting out on your care for animals in your everyday life? And they might be like, yeah, sometimes. And so it's like an easy like yes, or and then I'll be like, tell me more, like give me an example of that, or like, have you and the other thing that I'll do, I'll share something that another person has told me. So I'll say I actually was speaking to somebody else who told me that, and I might give the example of that she she always has towels in her car just in case. You've got to rescue some wildlife or something like that. And immediately they'll be like, me too, or I also do this other thing. And so it starts to feel like little these little things that are relatable. And they suddenly feel bit by bit, through conversation, extra connected to this cause as their own self. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes, yes. I think that you're so right. And I I really love that you talk about interviewing because you know, one of the things actually one of the parts of the activity that we did yesterday was do you know this? are you guessing this or are you assuming? I think I feel like those aren't quite right, but yeah, yeah. Madeleine Nance: Huh. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: No assuming guess. It was no assuming guess. So like Do you really know this about your donors? Do you really know this about the people that you're working with? And how do you know it? I always ask that question, well, how do you know that? because Madeleine Nance: Mm. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: sometimes it's an assumption and we didn't really, we've never asked. And Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I think a great strategy for organizations when we think about like the continuous engagement of our supporters is. Asking them those little things like, Why did you get involved with us? Drop us a line and let us know, you know, or Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: what's your favorite thing that we do? Those are great ways to get people Madeleine Nance: Yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: involved. Madeleine Nance: Yeah. And y you know what is as well? Sometimes people are already telling us those things and we're just not thinking to do something with that. So I spoke to another organization recently who I said, you know, you've gotta start using reflecting the voice of your supporter back to them. You've got all these people. They were telling me these people who come to their events and talk about how much they so this is it's a literary society. So that people who love reading and writing. And so they talk about like why they came to this event. They come up to them and say, I loved the piece you wrote on blah blah blah. And they're all they're telling me these things and I s and I said, so what do you do with that after they tell you? And the answer was like nothing. That was just a nice conversation, which is great. But I but immediately I was like, put that I I was saying, even if it's simple as have a spreadsheet where it's just like anecdotal things. Somebody came up to me at an event, told me that the reason she found out about us is because her friend invited her. You know, whatever it is, just put that in there. And cause what you'll do is you'll build a bank of words and phrases that are this is the voice of your supporter. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. Madeleine Nance: And so sometimes it's, I mean, there's ways to do it officially. You can do supporter surveys, you can do interviews with people, you can do an event where it's specifically, I want to hear from you, and like that's they know that's what it's for, or it's just listening. When somebody sends an email just saying, thanks, you know, I I love what you guys do, or whatever, like just all just gather it all and put it in one place and look at that, and you will see patterns full of language in there. And that's what you Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Madeleine Nance: need to be using in your fundraising. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such such a great strategy. I love that strategy. Actually you taught me one that I use all the time and I think this kind of feeds into it, and that's the name covering one. Like if you cover Madeleine Nance: Yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: the name, like do do they know it's from you? it's kind of where like the red thread that I talk about, you know, that red thread is how people know it's from you because it's so consistent. Madeleine Nance: Yes. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: It's so consistently you. You're always going to say like one voice, one whatever, because you know that's who you are. One voice, one conversation. Madeleine Nance: Yes. I'm so glad you use that. I love that's one of my favorite strategies too. And the and so I mentioned earlier that like my kind persuasion methodology is four steps. So and it's all based on empathy and putting yourself in the the whole s all of the steps are in the voice of the supporter. So it's I care, I feel this, and that's where you're establishing need. I trust you with this, we're moving into solution. and I'm in, and that's your call to action. And the whole way, on though all of those four, if you really get into the mindset of what your supporter, what they care about, and also what you do that is unique to you, and you have your voice is really strong and doesn't sound like every other nonprofit, that's where it's going to feel like It's going to feel like this person reading your communications is going to feel a bond to you specifically. Not like and that's why I love the name cover tests. If you were so the way that it works for people listening is if you take a piece of let's say, take your home page, take a an appeal letter that you've sent out recently, even a social media post, cover your organization's name and logo and just read it from scratch. Can they tell that it's your organization or even your cause? Sometimes we'll use this really generic language, like everybody will say, let's make a difference for lasting change and transform lives. Like everyone's saying that. I don't even know what cause you you are when you talk like that. And so when you make it super, super specific, and that specificity is a big part of what I train people in and what I apply to my own writing, is something. Only you can say. And like I wanna know I want people to feel like yes, that is so them. That's like I feel almost Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Madeleine Nance: like when you get to know a friend and you're just like, that's so them, like I'm that's so Sarah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so funny. I was listening to Phil Rosenthal a couple weeks ago. He was the writer for Everybody Loves Raymond. And yeah. And so he was talking about specificity. And when he said it, I was like, yeah. Because he's like, we pitched a show about a guy who lives across the street from his parents or beside next door to his parents and his brother lives across the street. That is boring. He's like, nobody is gonna be like, yeah, let's do that. So how do you make that interesting? And he said it's all about the detail. And so he talked about I maybe it was the pilot, but there you the parents got a fruit basket and you know he's like getting a fruit basket is no, you know, whatever. But when they talk about like, my gosh, those bananas are gonna get too browned before we ever get to them, and there's so much, and how are we supposed to eat all of this? And why do people give such big giant fruit baskets anyway? Cause that's ridiculous. No family can eat that much. He's like, when you hear that piece, you're like, yeah, let me tell you my story, right? Because it's so relatable. You're like, well, ours wasn't a fruit basket, but once we got, we got won this wine giant, This is true actually. We w won a giant stocking. So it's full of stuff, you know. So whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. The detail though is what makes my mind think about how it's happened to me. That's where Madeleine Nance: Totally. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: it gets into it. Madeleine Nance: It's r relatability is so powerful in your communications. And I love that you brought up everybody loves Raymond because a lot of my strategy in my communication and persuasion and all the human connection, I've actually learned from studying stand-up comedians. And Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: really? Madeleine Nance: because the you think about what makes someone great on stage where they're talking about something so random but it's hilarious. is because it's so hyper relatable and it'll be a moment that you're like, I d I know that feeling. I've never named it, to hear somebody say it out loud and share that story. There's something about that that make causes this like lights your brain up. And to come back to what we're talking about, the name cover test and like, do you sound like you instead of everybody else? There is so much content right now, we're just flooded with it that I actually think our brains are starting to Just we that out of pure survival, just filter it out. Anything that feels not interesting, not for me, un irrelevant, I'm just gonna ignore it. And so if you can do something that is a pattern disruptor, and that's where the comedians are so good at this, of saying naming something interesting, outrageous, or you know, in the nonprofit world, something that causes an emotional reaction to it. And that could be this is what I talk to a bit people about as well in my when I'm doing a strategy session with someone is like what kind of feeling reaction are we looking for here? Like is it, that's so sweet, my heart is warmed. Is it I am infuriated, this is enraging, or it like is this is an injustice, I've got to do something about it, or like I'm devastated, that absolutely broke my heart. Like what what's the feeling we're looking for here? And then you know kind of where you want to get to, and then you've got Right, these are the steps and we're gonna weave in relatable moments that are going to lead somebody to that frame of mind to feel that reaction. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Yeah. And at the end, I always like to talk about the lean in, right? Because don't you feel like when you do this well, that's kind of the the tell for the organization. People lean in, they really do want to know, like, what how how can I keep or change this feeling, right? If if we're Madeleine Nance: Yeah. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: infuriating them, how do I make a change? If we're endearing them, my gosh, I wanna be part of this, right? Madeleine Nance: Yeah, and and this is where okay, so I talk a lot about the just the whole idea of persuasion because people they're there's it's a tool, right? It's a skill that can be used for good or bad. So the bad side of it is manipulating someone or pressuring them into doing something they don't want to do. And when you think about when that's happened to you, let's say you've just had a really just pressuring salesperson push you to buy something. What do you feel afterwards? You feel instant regret and you feel ick. You're not gonna like you just want out. I don't want anything to do with that again. I feel stupid. I feel guilty that I did that. It's a yuck feeling. But I thought, what if it could be kind? And that's why it's called kind persuasion. And this is where I believe this is what fundraising is. Or is you were speaking to someone who cares about this cause. You're not manufacturing desire or urgency or need or anything. This is real stuff. You're showing it to them and you're inviting them in. And then when they make that decision to support you financially or to volunteer, whatever your call to action is, then you think about how do they feel after that? It's a it is such a good feeling. Like you Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Mm-hmm. Madeleine Nance: actually feel like like you and I have talked about this about values when you feel your values compromised versus when you feel your values like growing, nurtured. And so this is a way for somebody who cares about. let's say, you know, children growing up in a safe neighborhood, when they can know that they're contributing to their local neighborhood center so that that they can keep the lights on there, they feel good. They feel good. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Madeleine Nance: Like you think I actually feel like a better person right now. This is a good feeling and I want to do more of it. And so that's where it's kind. And like you said, the Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. Madeleine Nance: lean in, they they want to do more because they felt so good from that engagement with you. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah. And then from the organization's perspective, you can ignite that feeling again every single time you give them like a legitimate update or you know, you can really help them feel good. You can help other people feel good. I think I call fundraising soul work because of that. I mean, I think it's soulful work because we do get to help people engage in the world in a meaningful way and create legacy and create you know, a a reason. to like point out the positive things that they've done. They they can say, hey, I'm part of that. And I think that's such a gift that we give people in through our work. Madeleine Nance: Absolutely. And it's getting out of this mindset. Like, you know, I coach a lot of fundraisers who will tell me they're scared, they find they're scared to ask, and like it's cringy and I don't wanna do it. And it's like, okay, because that's because you're in a mindset where you feel like you're asking for you, that you're asking a favor of someone to do something that they don't want to do. And so once we unwind that mindset and they realize you're actually giving someone a a way to do something. that they are gonna feel great about. And also they can say no. You're not making someone do anything. We like having that decision making power and letting people know like the decision is is yours. You're not pressuring. It just changes the whole feeling and suddenly asking doesn't feel ick. It feels good. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yeah, it does. I knew that our half an hour was going to fly by and it has and so I really I know, I Madeleine Nance: I know. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: could really talk to you all day long, Maddie. so can you let our listeners know where they can find you? Madeleine Nance: Yes. So I am so you can either follow me on LinkedIn because I post regularly there. So Madeline Nance on LinkedIn. and then also my my website is kindwordreview.com and you can see there are just different ways to work with me. I do like the thing that I find people are are asking a lot for these days are what I call a kind persuasion session and that's an one-on-one hour together. where we can strategize all these things and give you some language that's gonna make your supporters feel like, yes, I'm in. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: I love that. I love that. And I will tell you that Maddie has a newsletter that I read every week. So I've pointed her out a couple times in my newsletter because I really do love reading her newsletter. She gives great tips and it's just fun to read. So I recommend looking her up. Yes. I will put the links below. Madeleine Nance: thank you. Thank you, Sarah. This has been fun. Sarah Barton | Nonprofit411: Yes. Thank you. Yeah, I'll put your links in the show notes so that everybody can access you. And thank you so much for coming. And to our listeners, I want to thank you for listening. Have a great week and tune in next time.