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81. Breaking the Cycle: Healing Yourself Changes Your Children with Kattlen Quiza · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world.
• 0:13
  Tracy: Looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia ora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:37
  Tracy: Today, I have the utmost pleasure of, um, having my guest today is Katlyn Keyser.
• 0:44
  Tracy: Oh, I'm just so excited to have you on here.
• 0:45
  Tracy: Thank you, Katlyn.
• 0:46
  Tracy: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 0:47
  Tracy: Oh,
• 0:47
  Kattlen: wow.
• 0:48
  Kattlen: Thank you, Tracey.
• 0:49
  Kattlen: I've been looking forward to this for a few months now, so I'm excited to be here, and thank you very much for the invite.
• 0:55
  Tracy: Oh, you're welcome.
• 0:57
  Tracy: Now, I just said to you before, I'm gonna get your name right, and, uh, and there's a little story, so I'm gonna share that, 'cause I don't think I've shared that so far.
• 1:03
  Tracy: That when I was a child, there was a thing around my name, about people not saying my name right, um, or they gave me nicknames and stuff like that, which I found kind of… It was, depending on who gave it to me, who was giving it to me.
• 1:15
  Tracy: But also, I had a thing where, around my birthday when people got my… I would celebrated my birthday on the wrong day for about six years in my earlier life.
• 1:24
  Tracy: So as, for me, it's important that people get the, your names right, because it's another one, and for me is spelling as well.
• 1:30
  Tracy: People spell my name wrong all the time.
• 1:32
  Kattlen: Mm.
• 1:32
  Tracy: So, and your name is, is, um, one of those ones that you read and you think, "Oh, that could say something completely different to what I think it's meant to say."
• 1:41
  Kattlen: It's particularly- So- … unique, yes.
• 1:44
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 1:44
  Kattlen: Um, and then isn't it funny, our, our names and just how much emphasis we can, or how little emphasis we can place on it.
• 1:52
  Kattlen: Awesome.
• 1:53
  Kattlen: I know growing up, because my name was quite different and very challenging for a lot of people to pronounce, that I made it simple for everyone else.
• 2:03
  Kattlen: "Oh, just call me Kat. Just call me Kat." So- Yeah … but it was only in my, maybe in my 20s and early 30s that I really stepped into owning my name as Katlyn and introducing myself as Katlyn and getting out of the habit of, yeah, introducing myself as Kat.
• 2:19
  Tracy: Mm. I think names are important.
• 2:21
  Tracy: I think that, I mean, this, in Constellations, like, there's quite a bit around it.
• 2:25
  Tracy: There's a little bit around naming and who you're named after- Mm … or, um, and things like that.
• 2:30
  Tracy: But for me personally, owning it.
• 2:33
  Tracy: I know a lot of people that change their names as well as they get older, just 'cause they feel that they don't fit their names.
• 2:38
  Tracy: But anyway.
• 2:39
  Tracy: Mm. Straight into a, a whole nother universe around conversation there that I- Yeah … didn't know we were going down.
• 2:45
  Tracy: But that's all cool.
• 2:45
  Kattlen: That's a part of it, isn't it?
• 2:47
  Tracy: Isn't it?
• 2:48
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 2:48
  Tracy: So I'd love for you to introduce yourself a bit and share with the audience and the, the listeners and the viewers, um, a little bit about who you are, where you're from.
• 2:57
  Kattlen: A bit about who I am and where I'm from.
• 3:00
  Kattlen: Okay.
• 3:01
  Kattlen: Now, even this question can go in so many different ways.
• 3:05
  Kattlen: So I guess on a personal level, I am a mother of a very energetic three-year-old who you just met earlier.
• 3:15
  Kattlen: And on a, yeah, on a wider lens, I'm a partner, fiancée, and a daughter, a sister- And on a professional level, so I am an occupational therapist and have been working with children and families for about, oh, over 12 years now And I am weaving into my practice family constellations, and- Mm-hmm I'm actually pivoting my business a bit, Cr- Tracy.
• 3:47
  Kattlen: I've, since becoming a mom, I've just realized how important our own work is in supporting our children.
• 3:55
  Kattlen: So I'm, at the moment, working mostly with mothers and supporting them and doing some constellations to help with releasing intergenerational pattern- Mm increasing their awareness of the patterns that they have.
• 4:07
  Kattlen: It's embedded to, to support themselves as a mother, you know, their own capacity, but also for the next generation.
• 4:14
  Kattlen: So-
• 4:14
  Tracy: Yeah… Kattlen: yeah, it's- And you're a cycle breaker.
• 4:19
  Kattlen: Definitely, definitely resonate.
• 4:21
  Kattlen: A self-confessed cycle breaker mother, definitely.
• 4:24
  Kattlen: I, yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely n- been a journey.
• 4:29
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 4:29
  Kattlen: So I think a lot of people who resonate with the term cycle breaker probably go through three pha- three phases.
• 4:37
  Kattlen: I know I certainly did, where the first phase was, uh, almost in my victimhood of like, "Why me?
• 4:45
  Kattlen: Why am I the only one doing this?" And seeing all of the dysfunction within your relationships, either personal relationships or even professional relationships, and then kind of moving through that victim stage into the next one of going, "Okay, well, all right, this is just how it is." It's more of that acceptance phase- Mm … that you're not there to save everyone and you can't force people to do their own work.
• 5:12
  Kattlen: And then I've really come to this, well, I think it's the third and final stage, there may be a stage after this, of, uh, being so thankful.
• 5:20
  Kattlen: Like really being thankful- Mm … for the… And even being thankful for the hard stuff that I've had to go through.
• 5:28
  Kattlen: And in particular, probably being more thankful for those hard moments and hard hardships that I had to endure as a child and as an early, early adult.
• 5:37
  Kattlen: Mm. And going, "I'm just so honored to be the cycle breaker." Yeah.
• 5:41
  Tracy: Yeah, that's
• 5:42
  Kattlen: a huge- And that, that brings up- That's a huge- so emotion for me.
• 5:44
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 5:44
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:45
  Tracy: That's a huge, um… From that, uh, "Why me? Why does, you know, why is it all landing on my shoulders?" sort of thing, to then being in that space of gratitude.
• 5:54
  Kattlen: Mm.
• 5:54
  Tracy: Wow.
• 5:55
  Tracy: That's a huge leap, but yeah.
• 5:57
  Tracy: What a journey, hey?
• 5:58
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:58
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 5:59
  Kattlen: And it's funny, I've had that conversation with my partner to say,"I'm just, I'm really thankful for the, you know, for the lack of a better word, the trauma that I experienced." Mm. And for him, it's a little bit challenging to understand, how can you be thankful for all of that stuff?
• 6:15
  Kattlen: He had a very different childhood to me, so.
• 6:18
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 6:19
  Tracy: I resonate with that statement as well.
• 6:21
  Tracy: Mm. I mean, we all have our different, our different journeys, but yeah, I absolutely feel that the, the things that I experienced certainly give me many, many resources- To, um, to be who I am, who I show up in the world to be for others and with others, yeah.
• 6:38
  Tracy: A totally different person obviously than what I was yesterday.
• 6:41
  Tracy: But, you know, like you go back 20 years and it's like, "Who was that?" You know, I recognize you, but-
• 6:46
  Kattlen: I love that phrase that you just said there, Tracey, with others.
• 6:49
  Kattlen: Mm-hmm.
• 6:50
  Kattlen: You know?
• 6:50
  Kattlen: It, and I think having gone through the hardship, it allows us to kind of go shoulder to shoulder with the people that are close to us or that we connect with.
• 7:01
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 7:01
  Kattlen: And just, yeah, be with them through the journey.
• 7:06
  Kattlen: We all have something to share no matter what our journey has been early on and, you know, what, what stage of life we're at too, you know?
• 7:15
  Kattlen: Even if we're the youngest in the room, we'll always have something unique to provide.
• 7:21
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 7:22
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Kattlen: Even to those elder.
• 7:24
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 7:24
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 7:25
  Tracy: So tell me, how did you first meet, or how did constellations find you?
• 7:29
  Kattlen: It was by chance, actually.
• 7:31
  Kattlen: So I was introduced to constellations 2014, so I've been in the world of constellations a little while, and kind of dabbled in it to begin with.
• 7:42
  Kattlen: Gosh,
• 7:42
  Tracy: you must have just been a teenager.
• 7:44
  Kattlen: Yes.
• 7:45
  Kattlen: Uh, maybe not quite a teenager.
• 7:47
  Kattlen: I, I do look younger than I am.
• 7:49
  Kattlen: I- Dabbled in it then.
• 7:52
  Kattlen: Uh, and then when I… So I fell pregnant unexpectedly with, we were doing renovations at the time, and quarter of our house, the roof was a tarp, and that was the situation that I found myself, found myself pregnant in, thinking, "Oh my God, how am I supposed to bring a baby into this?" And so it, it brought so much to the surface as I, I know most mothers would have experienced the resurgence of a lot of- Mm … maybe unresolved things within us or… Yeah, so for me, I then went really deep into, oh, okay, I, I know personally that I've got some stuff that I haven't yet tended to.
• 8:36
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 8:36
  Kattlen: That I'm, I'm just so determined to make sure that I'm doing everything within my capacity, within my power so that it doesn't move forward.
• 8:45
  Tracy: Mm.
• 8:46
  Kattlen: Doesn't mean that it was easy.
• 8:47
  Kattlen: Whoa, actually, this work is not for everyone.
• 8:50
  Kattlen: This work is not for everyone.
• 8:51
  Kattlen: It takes you places where, yeah, it takes you to your shadows.
• 8:56
  Kattlen: It takes you face to face with those parts of you that maybe you hadn't… I know I had some shame around the parts of me that I was.
• 9:06
  Kattlen: Yeah, and just to come to those parts with love and acceptance is just, yeah.
• 9:11
  Kattlen: So- Yeah … that's how it found me.
• 9:14
  Tracy: I, I… For me, I would reframe that, that this work is for everyone-
• 9:18
  Kattlen: Yeah… Tracy: but not everybody's Yes.
• 9:20
  Kattlen: That would be where I would… And then again, someone else might say, but, you know, there are some cases where it's probably not for them.
• 9:27
  Kattlen: Mm-hmm.
• 9:28
  Tracy: You're thinking on the extremes, so… But I hear you.
• 9:31
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:31
  Tracy: It does, definitely makes, uh… You dive into it.
• 9:35
  Tracy: You dive into the depths of it, I think.
• 9:38
  Kattlen: Mm-hmm.
• 9:39
  Kattlen: With-
• 9:39
  Tracy: Most of us do.
• 9:40
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 9:40
  Kattlen: With almost… Because you never really know where it's going to take you-
• 9:46
  Tracy: Mm… Kattlen: that, I, I think that level and anxiety provoking at times.
• 9:53
  Tracy: I think it allows you to, to touch into things that maybe, because it's felt, I think that's probably why, and I've always been such a feeler.
• 10:03
  Tracy: I've always been, you know, uh, able to cry, if I need to.
• 10:08
  Tracy: The, like- Mm … very emotional.
• 10:10
  Tracy: I feel the energy of things.
• 10:11
  Tracy: I feel the grief, the overwhelm, and stuff like that.
• 10:13
  Tracy: And as I've cleared mine, it's been less and less, but this work allows you to tap into that very quickly.
• 10:19
  Tracy: I think, not that talk ther- there's nothing wrong with talk therapy, I just feel like you can get so much more in a constellation because of the, the releasing that we feel in our bodies.
• 10:30
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 10:30
  Kattlen: The release and- I, there's, I find there's a place for every modality, every therapy.
• 10:38
  Kattlen: I myself have done talk therapy.
• 10:40
  Kattlen: For me, constellations, not only did it allow the release, but for me there was so much cultural, there was a such a big cultural element that I was unconsciously carrying.
• 10:54
  Kattlen: Mm. So I'm from the Philippines originally, born over there, came over here when I was three.
• 10:59
  Kattlen: There's a big backstory to that.
• 11:02
  Kattlen: And but growing up in Australia, even though I was three when I came to Australia, there was so much of the Philippine culture, mindset, beliefs, shame around a few different things that I was unconsciously carrying.
• 11:15
  Kattlen: So even though I- Mm … didn't have, it's not that I didn't have connection with the culture, but I didn't practice a lot of the cultural elements, so I very much grew up with the Australian culture.
• 11:27
  Tracy: Right.
• 11:28
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 11:28
  Kattlen: Which talk therapy would not have gotten me there, or if it did, it would not have gotten me there as quick as constellations did.
• 11:35
  Tracy: Yeah, I think that's a, I think that's a, that, that would probably be the… It just gets you there, just gets you there quicker, right?
• 11:41
  Kattlen: Mm-hmm.
• 11:42
  Tracy: You'll get there with talk therapy, it will just take a little bit longer.
• 11:45
  Tracy: Um, how do you describe it?
• 11:47
  Tracy: If you're talking to someone, you've got a, you're at a barbecue or you, or you're just wanting to share with someone a little bit about constellations, I mean, you know, how would you describe it to someone?
• 11:57
  Kattlen: I find this question so funny, not because constellation… Well, yes, firstly because constellations can be challenging to explain.
• 12:06
  Kattlen: But for some reason, the careers that I have chosen, occupational therapy and then now constellation, both of them are really challenging to explain to someone who isn't familiar with them.
• 12:19
  Kattlen: So I spent- Over a decade refining what does it mean to be an occupational therapist, and then finding my elevator pitch, and, and now here I am with family constellations, and I'm going through that journey again.
• 12:33
  Kattlen: And I think because I've had the journey with OT, I've been able to really… it depends on who the person is in front of me, and if I was to come across someone for the first time and they w- were- they overheard me talking about fam- family constellations, I would describe it as a therapeutic modality that allows us to tap into the nervous system and reach intergenerational patterns of behaviors, of beliefs, of thinking, and then release that from our nerve system if it no longer serves us.
• 13:15
  Kattlen: So there's often, ugh, so many of us that are walking around thinking that the behaviors that they've got are a true personality trait, whereas with constellations we really recognize that there's so much that we're actually unconsciously carrying-
• 13:32
  Tracy: Mm… Kattlen: and, and displaying and yeah.
• 13:35
  Tracy: So yeah, it's a modality that allows us to reach intergenerat- generational patterns.
• 13:40
  Tracy: And actually, you know, this, there's this word transgenerational healing.
• 13:45
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 13:45
  Kattlen: Which means we can heal previous generations and future generations, and I think that's really what family constellations allows.
• 13:55
  Tracy: Yeah, and I think that word has come in to sort of cover all of it, right?
• 13:59
  Kattlen: Mm.
• 14:00
  Tracy: So I used to go through the, the, "Oh, you know, it goes forward, it goes back, it goes sideways," whereas that word covers it all.
• 14:06
  Tracy: Y- you know, you just said, um, that shifting, that changing in your nervous system, have you got an example of that?
• 14:12
  Tracy: Like, i- in yourself, have you noticed anything that really shifted in the patterns for you when you started to do the work?
• 14:19
  Tracy: Like something that you carried or…
• 14:21
  Kattlen: Yeah, so for me, the biggest… well, my journey is ever-going at the moment, because I experienced trauma quite young, and my little one's quite young.
• 14:33
  Kattlen: So every, it's almost every milestone or every event that I experienced as a child, there is a mirror in him that, that shows up that is f- for… how it manifests at the moment is he is displaying the emotions that I wa- I didn't have the safety to ex- express.
• 14:56
  Kattlen: So for me, the biggest shift that I can remember is when he was expressing anger and was actually being quite physical and hitting and kicking, that it was such a big trigger for me because- Yeah I, this is gonna make me quite emotional, I realized just how young I had to be- To be the strong one, to, to learn these behaviors of suppression
• 15:25
  Tracy: Yeah
• 15:26
  Kattlen: So There's a, a realization that I had, as well as the trigger that comes up, and my own big emotions in response to his big emotions, and then the grief, the grief that comes with the realization of just what I missed out on.
• 15:45
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 15:45
  Kattlen: And so there was a moment in my motherhood, not too long ago, that his expression of anger triggered all of that at once, and I snapped back into my 18-month-old self and was responding as my 18-month-old self with… And my voice would change when I was, like, interacting with him, and it was only because my partner said, "You, you sounded different when you snapped at him."
• 16:15
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 16:16
  Kattlen: And it was like, oh, okay.
• 16:17
  Kattlen: So then that re- made me realize, okay, this is more than just potentially me, and I did a constellation and brought up so much grief, my own grief- Mm my mother's grief, my grandmother's grief, and cultural grief.
• 16:33
  Kattlen: That was the biggest constellation that I had.
• 16:34
  Kattlen: It was so co- so big, and within two weeks, he was still expressing anger in the exact same way, but my body, my voice, my demeanor, my capacity to be with him in those big emotions changed.
• 16:50
  Tracy: Wow.
• 16:51
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 16:51
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 16:52
  Kattlen: So that's probably the biggest one for me, just because there was so much that came up from the mirroring of, of his- Mm … yeah, his development.
• 17:03
  Kattlen: Mm.
• 17:03
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 17:03
  Tracy: Well, how lucky is he to have his mother doing her work on the journey?
• 17:08
  Kattlen: Well, well- It's
• 17:09
  Tracy: amazing… Kattlen: yeah.
• 17:10
  Tracy: He chose me and h- for the lessons that I needed to learn, and then he's got s- his own.
• 17:15
  Tracy: It was an interesting you said, you know, you found out you were pregnant and there was, and the roof had come off the hou- you know, you'd taken the roof off the house.
• 17:21
  Tracy: It's kind of like, ooh, let's, like, take the lid off and see what's in there.
• 17:26
  Kattlen: Oh, there was stuff everywhere, Tracey.
• 17:32
  Tracy: Oh, beautiful.
• 17:33
  Tracy: It's so good.
• 17:34
  Tracy: So tell me, this Cyclebreaker, um, I know you've been sharing a little bit on, on Instagram and on social media and stuff.
• 17:43
  Tracy: You wanna tell the, um, talk about that a little bit more?
• 17:46
  Tracy: Little how i- how is this being infused in your work?
• 17:49
  Kattlen: Oh, there's a few different layers to the work.
• 17:54
  Kattlen: So I am s- so passionate with working with mothers who are, whether they identify it as themselves or, or not, the cyclebreaker mother.
• 18:08
  Kattlen: Mm. So for me, it's the mother who is just so determined to do it differently than how she experienced it, and that means so many different things.
• 18:18
  Kattlen: So I know I've been talking a little bit about emotional reactivity.
• 18:23
  Kattlen: Yes, that's one element of cycle breaking.
• 18:26
  Kattlen: The other elements of cycle breaking that I see in the mothers I work with, not just physical, uh, emotional presence, but physical presence, of finding that balance of, okay, who am I as a mother?
• 18:39
  Kattlen: Who am I as now a modern mother who o- often they've got careers or jobs.
• 18:44
  Kattlen: And there's so much guilt that comes with this is the position I'm gonna take, whether it's part-time work or full-time work or full-time mom.
• 18:54
  Kattlen: There's a lot of guilt that kind of comes around that.
• 18:55
  Kattlen: And so it's about releasing the shame and the guilt.
• 18:59
  Kattlen: And then also the other element is a lot of the mothers that I work with, they were the good girl as the child, and so they learnt very well how to meet the needs of others, whether it was their parents- Yeah … or their siblings, whether they were the parentified child.
• 19:20
  Kattlen: They were so good at meeting everyone else's needs that they lost touch with what it was that they need.
• 19:27
  Kattlen: So through constellations, I help with emotional release, I support their nervous system to have capacity to have different emotions and be with them without either shutting down or being overwhelmed.
• 19:42
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 19:43
  Kattlen: And then also helping them to firstly recognize that they have their needs, that it's okay to have their needs, and then the next layer is to, to meet their own needs.
• 19:55
  Kattlen: And yes, there's an element there of helping these mothers to, to, to piece that all together, but the ultimate goal of these cycle breaker mothers is to do that in order to make sure that their child gets something different, the best version of themselves.
• 20:12
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Kattlen: Yeah,
• 20:13
  Tracy: because, 'cause sometimes we can go, "I'm gonna be so different to my mother," and then you get so caught up in the web of, of mothering and trying to be the best mother, that you forget about that you're breaking cycles, and you just find yourself invisibly caught up in this cycle of being exactly like what it is that you're trying not to be.
• 20:34
  Kattlen: Mm. Yeah.
• 20:36
  Kattlen: And you actually- … touched on a point there of, a lot of the moms that I work with, they're the ones that are just doing, doing, doing, doing, doing- Yeah … doing, exhausted, and then resentful because there's no one else chipping in, or they're not doing it right, or that kind of thing.
• 20:52
  Kattlen: And, and a lot of that resentment doesn't even start with, it really doesn't start with them.
• 20:56
  Kattlen: There's a big intergenerational pattern.
• 20:59
  Kattlen: So yeah, I work both one-to-one with- mums, and I've just finished my last container of, um, Cycle Breaker M- Cycle Breaker Mothers container there, and we worked one-to-one in a, in a three-month container that was beautiful.
• 21:15
  Kattlen: And I- Mm … I'm just in awe of this work because- Yeah … it's l- it's seriously life-changing.
• 21:23
  Kattlen: It can be life-changing stuff- Yeah … with these mums who- Have spent years, if not decades, in a, you know, exhausted or can't sleep.
• 21:33
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Kattlen: And then once they release these things, they can sleep again, or they wake up and they actually have energy.
• 21:39
  Kattlen: I just, it's such an honor to be, to be part of this journey with, with the mothers as well.
• 21:45
  Tracy: Mm. And what about the dads?
• 21:47
  Tracy: 'Cause, you know, how does your partner fit into this?
• 21:50
  Kattlen: Mm. How does my partner fit into this?
• 21:53
  Kattlen: 'Cause there's two questions there.
• 21:55
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 21:56
  Tracy: The dads.
• 21:57
  Kattlen: It's funny that you say that.
• 21:58
  Kattlen: I've actually got- The
• 21:59
  Tracy: partners.
• 21:59
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Kattlen: In-
• 22:00
  Tracy: Well, how do the partners fit into this?
• 22:02
  Tracy: What am I asking?
• 22:04
  Kattlen: Let me try and answer what I feel you might be, um, asking.
• 22:07
  Kattlen: Yeah,
• 22:07
  Tracy: just whatever comes up.
• 22:08
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:09
  Kattlen: I, for me personally, and also what I've seen with the mothers that I've gone through this one-to-one container with, is the dads firstly notice the changes in the mum, and then that gets them curious.
• 22:24
  Kattlen: And I've actually worked with… So a mum that I've been working with, I have started working with her partner as well and doing, weaving in constellations into-
• 22:35
  Tracy: Right.
• 22:36
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 22:36
  Tracy: That must have been sitting there because I was like this, the, this, the partners as well, it's like.
• 22:41
  Kattlen: Mm.
• 22:41
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:42
  Kattlen: And I do notice a trend that there's more men that are actually opening up to this line of work, this depth of work.
• 22:51
  Kattlen: Mm. The, the work that you can't see with your eyes.
• 22:55
  Kattlen: ' Tracy: Cause they, 'cause they want to they experienced and, and often there's that expectation that the one who's out, um, earning the money is, you know, has that, that's their, they're just the, the… For them sometimes they feel like they're just bringing in the money.
• 23:15
  Kattlen: They're the ones gonna raise the children.
• 23:17
  Kattlen: I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna do it differently to how my parents have done it, and then get caught in the trap of that going to work and doing that.
• 23:23
  Kattlen: So that's another type of cycle.
• 23:26
  Kattlen: Absolutely.
• 23:27
  Kattlen: It's intergenerational too.
• 23:28
  Kattlen: Mm. I was having a conversation with another dad about exactly that, where we, men were raised as knowing that they're going to be the breadwinner more often than not.
• 23:40
  Kattlen: And this dad, he's, um, a business owner and very heavily involved in the business, which means it's long hours.
• 23:48
  Kattlen: Yes, he's the breadwinner, and then he said, I think they was, his words were,"You blink and then your kid's six, and then you blink again and they're 16." Mm.
• 23:56
  Kattlen: And for him, he was describing to me from his perspective modern-day fatherhood, where they, we do, they do want to be more physically present, emotionally available, yet there's this big pull towards- But I'm the breadwinner, which means in order to be the breadwinner, I have to work long hours or I have to be away from the family, that kind of thing.
• 24:19
  Kattlen: So yeah, I think there's more, more men that are wanting to do it differently and be more present, but trying to find, again, that balance of what does that mean to be a father in today's age.
• 24:33
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 24:34
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 24:34
  Tracy: 'Cause, you know, and if, if the partner's shifting and then, and then, so you're shifting and your partner's seeing you shift, and then something's happening for them, they're starting to shift, and that whole, um, different parenting that comes in.
• 24:48
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 24:48
  Tracy: 'Cause you're both also navigating a whole new something that isn't, um … Well, it's, it's new, so it's not something that you're following that you've seen your parents do.
• 24:59
  Tracy: It's finding these new ways forward.
• 25:01
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 25:02
  Tracy: Mm.
• 25:02
  Kattlen: These new ways forward that, because you didn't have the modeling, almost seem impossible.
• 25:09
  Kattlen: How c- how could we do it that way?
• 25:11
  Kattlen: Like, that's not how you do it.
• 25:12
  Kattlen: Mm. Yeah.
• 25:13
  Kattlen: I know for me, certainly, there was elements of my motherhood where I was, "Oh, I have to do it this way," whereas my partner challenged me.
• 25:22
  Tracy: Mm.
• 25:22
  Tracy: " Kattlen: Do you, do you No, you don't have to." So an, an example is every time I go to town on my own, I felt this urge that whatever it was that I was going to town for, as soon as I was finished, I have to go back home and make sure that everyone's okay and, and my partner, he never once said,"Okay," like, "There's no pressure." He had no pressure at all, and he always said, "Take your time," with no strings attached.
• 25:50
  Tracy: But yeah, there was something in me previously that just felt I have to- So Mom and Dad are still around?
• 25:57
  Kattlen: My mom is, yes.
• 25:58
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 25:59
  Tracy: And how, how's that for you with this new way of being, for that relationship with you and mom?
• 26:06
  Tracy: Because sometimes they come in to grandparent the way we, you know, the way we've parented.
• 26:11
  Kattlen: Mm.
• 26:11
  Tracy: So how does that, sitting in the new cycle of things with the constellation, has it, constellations, has that changed anything for you?
• 26:18
  Kattlen: Oh, the biggest shifts.
• 26:20
  Kattlen: So my mom and I, when I was a early adult, we could not have a conversation without one of us, or if not two of us, being in a screaming match.
• 26:34
  Kattlen: So there was a lot of tension in our relationship for a very long time.
• 26:39
  Kattlen: I moved away very early, moved interstate, and then, yeah, doing this work.
• 26:47
  Kattlen: Let's say for example, I just went to visit her in Christmas last, last Christmas, and we spent six weeks under the same roof with no big emotional triggers from me.
• 27:01
  Kattlen: Yes, I got frustrated, or yes, I got annoyed, like, "That's annoying. Oh, here she goes again." But even the same time the year before, it would've been a big emotional flush over my body.
• 27:13
  Kattlen: Mm. So this, yeah, this work has changed me.
• 27:16
  Kattlen: It's changed our relationship, and yeah, so that's probably the, the biggest one, where we can actually be under the same roof and not feel like we're going to attack
• 27:29
  Tracy: each other.
• 27:29
  Tracy: Oh, I love that.
• 27:29
  Tracy: I love hearing that, you know, and it's that what you do, the work that you do, and how it ripples out, hey?
• 27:35
  Kattlen: Mm-hmm… Tracy: energetically, and not just feel, receive you differently, you know?
• 27:43
  Kattlen: It's not necessarily that they are… People don't have to be there and to have the constellation with you, but they just s- seem to receive you differently, whether that's how you perceive that is in shifting in the field.
• 27:56
  Kattlen: But, uh, yeah, one of the bonuses of, of the work.
• 28:00
  Kattlen: So I know th- so you trained with Edwina?
• 28:03
  Kattlen: Yeah, I did.
• 28:04
  Tracy: Yeah?
• 28:04
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 28:04
  Tracy: Down there in Melbourne.
• 28:06
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 28:06
  Tracy: Have you got, have you trained with anyone else?
• 28:08
  Tracy: Have you done any work, extended work with anyone else or…?
• 28:11
  Kattlen: Not extended work, no, just kind of bits and pieces.
• 28:15
  Kattlen: Edwina's definitely been the biggest influence.
• 28:17
  Kattlen: Mm. And I just actually had her visit New South Wales for a workshop, uh, last- Beautiful … last week, so it was good to see her again.
• 28:25
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 28:26
  Tracy: So did you know that the Netflix series is coming out and then the next one next week?
• 28:31
  Kattlen: No, which one?
• 28:32
  Tracy: Have you, have you seen Another Self?
• 28:33
  Kattlen: No.
• 28:34
  Tracy: Haven't you?
• 28:36
  Tracy: So it's a Netflix series about three women in Turkey, um, and it's called Another Self.
• 28:41
  Tracy: In English it's called Another Self.
• 28:43
  Tracy: I think in Turkey it's got a, a whole nother title.
• 28:45
  Tracy: And it's about their journey, and they meet a family constellation facilitator.
• 28:50
  Tracy: And so it sort of opens up that story.
• 28:52
  Tracy: So it's really put the work out there in a way.
• 28:55
  Tracy: And my understanding, what I was told, was that the director or the producer of it had been and actually had a family constellation themselves, and then they thought, "Well, this is gonna make a great story." So that's how it evolved from there.
• 29:08
  Tracy: And now they're onto se- uh, season three.
• 29:11
  Kattlen: Wow.
• 29:12
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Tracy: That comes out next week.
• 29:14
  Kattlen: Well, that's exciting for constellations, because-
• 29:17
  Tracy: Yeah … I think- It's a good way to explain it to people too, you know.
• 29:20
  Tracy: Like, ah, if you've got Netflix, have a look at that.
• 29:23
  Kattlen: Another Self.
• 29:24
  Kattlen: I will.
• 29:24
  Tracy: But I always say to people, but the facilitator facilitates very different to me.
• 29:29
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 29:29
  Tracy: Um, but it'll give you an idea of what we do.
• 29:32
  Kattlen: Beautiful.
• 29:32
  Kattlen: That's another thing I like about constellations, that it… Yeah, there is no one style.
• 29:37
  Kattlen: Mm. And people have so many different flavors of it, and it's just so beautiful and rich how you can step into one person's constellation and, yeah, I think have more of that shamanic element to it- Mm and then another one where it can be talking about business and money and roles and be very systemic and, yeah, I find it fascinating but also, yeah.
• 29:59
  Tracy: Yeah, it really melds into lots of different, um, with alongside lots of other different things.
• 30:04
  Tracy: So, and I'm looking at the occupational therapist behind you, and you shared how sometimes it can be difficult to explain.
• 30:12
  Tracy: So I'm gonna put that into the field.
• 30:13
  Tracy: Can you explain to someone who doesn't know what an occupational therapist does?
• 30:18
  Kattlen: Again, it would be dependent on who it is in front of me.
• 30:21
  Kattlen: Yep.
• 30:21
  Kattlen: But as an occupational therapist, we look at the word occupation not just as your job, but anything that occupies your time.
• 30:31
  Kattlen: So I've been working predominantly with kids for the last decade.
• 30:35
  Kattlen: And so for kids, it's tasks that they have to do like sleeping, eating, feeding, toileting.
• 30:43
  Kattlen: Tasks that they need to do, so writing their name, um, learning, reading.
• 30:51
  Kattlen: And then also things that they wanna do, socialize, play, ride a bike, swim.
• 30:56
  Kattlen: And so my job is to work out, okay, what are the underlying elements that are impacting on this person's ability to be independent or the most successful that they can be in those occupations?
• 31:10
  Kattlen: Mm. In those daily tasks that they want to do, have to do, or need to do.
• 31:15
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 31:15
  Tracy: Wow, okay.
• 31:17
  Tracy: I can see how you could also combine some constellation exercises into some of it.
• 31:23
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 31:23
  Tracy: Mm. If someone wanted to work with you, how would they find you?
• 31:28
  Kattlen: I'm probably most easily found on Instagram, so just @katlyn.kuester, which is a very difficult name to spell.
• 31:38
  Kattlen: So K-A-T-
• 31:41
  Tracy: Well, your name- … T-L-Y-N… your name's Kuester, not Kuester.
• 31:42
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 31:43
  Kattlen: I'll take either.
• 31:45
  Kattlen: Sometimes it depends what mood I'm in.
• 31:47
  Kattlen: Sometimes I'll just say I'm Katlyn Kuester, or if I'm feeling particularly in a, in another mood, it's definitely Katlyn Kuester.
• 31:55
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 31:55
  Tracy: So if, uh, if you were saying it how it's spelt, it's Kuester.
• 31:58
  Kattlen: Kuester, yeah.
• 31:59
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 32:00
  Kattlen: So that's where I'm found more predominantly.
• 32:01
  Kattlen: And you know what it is at the moment?
• 32:03
  Kattlen: It's word of mouth.
• 32:04
  Kattlen: So it's people who I'm- Mm … just coming across, working with, and, and the word is just spreading, so.
• 32:11
  Tracy: And, and you're doing some workshops too, aren't you?
• 32:14
  Tracy: Well, I know- Yes … you've done one or two.
• 32:15
  Kattlen: I've done a couple now, and I've got another one coming up.
• 32:19
  Kattlen: Oh, I'm so excited about this one coming up, where I am doing a cons- the family constellation, and then I have my beautiful friend Bree, who is a sound bowl-
• 32:32
  Tracy: Mm… Kattlen: uh, healer.
• 32:33
  Tracy: And then she's finishing off the workshop with all of us on the mat.
• 32:38
  Tracy: Nice.
• 32:38
  Tracy: She's a sound journey.
• 32:39
  Tracy: I'm very much looking forward to, yeah, that collaboration with her.
• 32:44
  Tracy: Wow.
• 32:44
  Tracy: When's that?
• 32:45
  Kattlen: It will be the 20- so it's actually next weekend, 27th of June.
• 32:51
  Tracy: Ooh, we'll have to see if we can squeeze you in there.
• 32:54
  Tracy: To get that out there.
• 32:55
  Kattlen: That's a, that's a face-to-face one.
• 32:58
  Kattlen: I know, we've only got one ticket left.
• 33:00
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 33:00
  Kattlen: So I'm, I'm- Oh,
• 33:00
  Tracy: wow… Kattlen: anticipating a lot of If you're listening to this, you've probably missed out already.
• 33:04
  Tracy: But keep an eye out for what's going on.
• 33:07
  Tracy: So what area of Australia are you in for Australia, sorry, Australia, um, are you in for those who are listening?
• 33:16
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Kattlen: So I am currently in the Southern Highlands of New South Wales.
• 33:20
  Kattlen: So geographically it is south of Sydney, an hour and a half or closer to two hours south of Sydney.
• 33:30
  Kattlen: And if you know Wollongong or Kiama, 40 minutes inland from those coastal- Okay … coastal beaches.
• 33:38
  Tracy: Okay.
• 33:39
  Tracy: I don't think I've ever heard anything in Australia called the Highlands.
• 33:41
  Kattlen: Uh-huh.
• 33:42
  Tracy: But I do have a- It's like a rough idea of where you are.
• 33:45
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 33:45
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 33:46
  Kattlen: It's, it's the Southern Highlands where I think it's, it's 600 meters, 640 meters above sea level.
• 33:53
  Kattlen: Like, it's either 640 or 460.
• 33:55
  Kattlen: I may have got those two numbers mixed up, but
• 33:58
  Tracy: yeah, we're quite elevated.
• 33:58
  Tracy: It's, it's an incredible country, isn't it, Australia?
• 34:00
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 34:00
  Tracy: Like the diversity in the landscape.
• 34:03
  Tracy: It's like New Zealand, but we're much smaller and it's, it's, you know, like it's like whoa, that notice 'cause it's there, whereas it's so spread out in Australia and it's so very diverse.
• 34:15
  Kattlen: So diverse.
• 34:16
  Kattlen: And even you probably have these pockets as well in New Zealand that you can have one town and then another town 15 minutes away, and they'll have different climates, almost different weather patterns.
• 34:29
  Kattlen: It's the same here as well.
• 34:31
  Tracy: Well, where I am now, I'm seven minutes from the center of Whangarei, which is the town that I'm, yeah, on the sket- outskirts of, and, and we have, can have a whole different, um, thing going on here weather-wise to downtown, which is again, like I say, seven minutes away.
• 34:49
  Tracy: And sometimes my husband will come home and go, "Di- did it rain here today?"'Cause it was pouring down where he was.
• 34:55
  Tracy: Uh, yeah, we're just like so close together.
• 34:58
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 34:59
  Tracy: That's beautiful.
• 35:00
  Tracy: Just let me see.
• 35:01
  Tracy: Just ask the field if there's anything else that we want to share before, before we take off.
• 35:07
  Tracy: What would be your biggest takeaway from this work so far?
• 35:10
  Tracy: What jumps out for you today?
• 35:12
  Kattlen: What jumps out for me today is that we are actually carrying so much more than we realize, and so are our kids.
• 35:23
  Kattlen: So I think that's the biggest takeaway for me.
• 35:25
  Kattlen: Mm. So with the mothers that I'm working with, sometimes I'll put the kids into the constellation and see what is it that the kids are… Like, what are their behaviors expressing?
• 35:37
  Kattlen: What unmet need are they expressing?
• 35:39
  Kattlen: Or what dynamic is influencing what we're seeing from the child's behavior?
• 35:47
  Tracy: Just to clarify, do you mean, like, put the actual children in or representatives of them?
• 35:51
  Tracy: Oh,
• 35:51
  Kattlen: the representative- Okay … of the child, yes.
• 35:53
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 35:53
  Kattlen: No, I don't work, I don't put children into the constellation.
• 35:57
  Kattlen: Okay.
• 35:57
  Kattlen: Like, as in the actual person child.
• 36:00
  Kattlen: Mm. But I will have a representative or a, a floor anchor or an element there to represent the child, and it's- Mm … just, for me, the biggest takeaway is we just underestimate how much we can take on for our parents, and then what can trickle down through the generations and, yeah, impact the kids.
• 36:22
  Kattlen: So may I sh- Mm … may I share a story?
• 36:25
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 36:26
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 36:27
  Kattlen: So while we're on this topic, uh, I was looking at, there was anger in a child that I was working with, and he… We just looked at, okay, what, where is this?
• 36:40
  Kattlen: We just placed the anger, and, uh, was working with the mum, so we started with those two elements.
• 36:46
  Kattlen: And yeah, found o- we found out that the constellation revealed that this anger that was so disproportionate to-
• 36:55
  Tracy: Mm
• 36:56
  Kattlen: what was actually happening on a day to day was passed down from something that occurred with his grandmother.
• 37:03
  Kattlen: So he was- Yeah … yeah.
• 37:05
  Kattlen: And when we were able to honor the grief, the anger from- What she experienced and then give the child permission to leave it with them, to give it back, and it doesn't belong to, to him.
• 37:21
  Kattlen: It was just amazing to see.
• 37:23
  Kattlen: It was less than a month later that, yes, he was still having five-year-old anger, but it was not at the same level, same intensity that he was having previously.
• 37:34
  Kattlen: So… And that's only one story, Tracey.
• 37:37
  Kattlen: I've got so many.
• 37:38
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:40
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 37:40
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 37:41
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Tracy: What a blessing.
• 37:42
  Tracy: What a blessing that you're doing this with the children.
• 37:45
  Tracy: Uh, well, with the parents, which is, you know, in that, in that f- when there is… deep in that phase with the little children, right?
• 37:52
  Tracy: And how that changes.
• 37:53
  Tracy: And it's gonna change their parenting going forward, and it's gonna continue to ripple out and, um, out through the family.
• 38:00
  Tracy: 'Cause I mean, I look at my, my two girls, and they had such a different mother.
• 38:04
  Tracy: I was really in a, in not a good space when they were young.
• 38:08
  Tracy: And, um, compared to my son who, who came 11 years after my youngest daughter, and by then, uh, I had turned a corner.
• 38:17
  Tracy: So he got a completely different mother with- Mm … a very, very different outlook on life and parenting.
• 38:23
  Kattlen: And so did that change your parenting dynamics as well within your, uh, partnership that you had with their father?
• 38:31
  Tracy: Oh, absolutely.
• 38:32
  Kattlen: Mm.
• 38:32
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 38:33
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 38:34
  Tracy: Um, and, and I think 'cause I was also giving myself a lot of, um, space f- in healing, but it allowed me to be able to face the things that I didn't wanna face.
• 38:45
  Tracy: Because when I wasn't facing them, they were showing up in my girls and, and that just became this cycle, cycle, cycle until eventually I couldn't not look at it anymore without creating an immense amount of- chaos and, mm.
• 39:00
  Tracy: So yeah, love it.
• 39:02
  Tracy: Go you, Cyclebreaker.
• 39:04
  Tracy: I love that title.
• 39:05
  Kattlen: Yes, and I, I think that that's why I've named my, my program it's… So I'm doing it one-to-one, but I'm also doing a group now, so I'm just about to open it up to an online group where I'm, I'm welcoming in five dedicated Cyclebreaker mothers- Mm … who are just wanting to go a little deeper or may have tried a few things and haven't seen the results that they're wanting and are knowing that, you know, they know it's deep down within them.
• 39:31
  Kattlen: It's just, yeah, finding that right- Fantastic… Tracy: right toolkit.
• 39:36
  Kattlen: Making stuff available for those who also maybe aren't in communities where they're able to connect in with other people as well, but can get it in online.
• 39:44
  Kattlen: Yeah, and to be in a room full of other mothers who are just walking the same path too, I think just even that in itself is so powerful too.
• 39:54
  Kattlen: Mm. 'Cause I think at times if… I was having a conversation with my partner about, y- um, you know, physical punishment and I think people see, oh, you know, if y- your, your parents punished you physically that, that, that was trauma.
• 40:08
  Kattlen: Yes, I'm not saying that it wasn't, but sometimes there's a, another level of trauma that can happen, and if you haven't got that in your body, that it can be- Mm really challenging to see how that affects how you show up as a parent.
• 40:23
  Tracy: Mm.
• 40:24
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 40:24
  Kattlen: And so being in a room where, where people get it and people are on the same page, I think is just even powerful and liberating to be in that room.
• 40:32
  Tracy: Mm. Well done.
• 40:34
  Tracy: I look forward to hearing more about that.
• 40:36
  Tracy: So will you put that, um… Is that gonna be an online… Sorry, you said online?
• 40:42
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 40:43
  Kattlen: O-
• 40:43
  Tracy: offering?
• 40:43
  Tracy: Yes.
• 40:43
  Tracy: And is that gonna be open to others, other, for anyone to join?
• 40:48
  Tracy: Obviously, that maybe fits in that profile of, of… Is it more of a younger parent, more of those who have younger children?
• 40:56
  Tracy: How- Not
• 40:56
  Kattlen: at all.
• 40:57
  Tracy: No, you don't have a profile for that?
• 40:58
  Kattlen: No, I've got a mum who's actually just about to jump in to the program, and she's got adult children, so.
• 41:04
  Tracy: Oh, great.
• 41:05
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 41:05
  Kattlen: Yes.
• 41:06
  Kattlen: So it, this is for any mother who is just wanting a better relationship with themselves- Mm … as well as a better relationship with their children and are l- are looking at seeing those intergenerational patterns and releasing them from, from their body or just having a different, I guess, awareness or perspective on.
• 41:25
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 41:27
  Tracy: Good work.
• 41:28
  Kattlen: Thank you.
• 41:28
  Kattlen: Good work.
• 41:29
  Kattlen: We need
• 41:29
  Tracy: more of you in the world.
• 41:31
  Tracy: Thank you.
• 41:31
  Tracy: Well, thank you so much for, for coming today and being here and, and sharing this, and I'm really excited to see where this evolves for you.
• 41:40
  Tracy: Really excited.
• 41:41
  Kattlen: Me too.
• 41:41
  Kattlen: Me too.
• 41:42
  Kattlen: It's not that it hasn't been hard work.
• 41:44
  Kattlen: There's been elements that have been very challenging to try and get this off the ground, but it's also been a little bit effortless too, that-
• 41:51
  Tracy: Mm
• 41:52
  Kattlen: once I've stepped into this is the, the mother that I wanna work with- Then they kind of come and find me, and I've got the group that's opening up 30th of July, and I've already got someone jumping on board, and I haven't really announced it to the general public yet.
• 42:11
  Kattlen: So because I am a little bit cautious… Not cautious, but I wanna make sure the right women are in that room, so I haven't been actively, um, advertising it.
• 42:21
  Kattlen: So if anyone is listening and feels really resonant, uh, I'd, I'd love to have a conversation with them to see- Yeah … if
• 42:28
  Tracy: they're
• 42:28
  Kattlen: the next
• 42:29
  Tracy: right
• 42:29
  Kattlen: step.
• 42:30
  Kattlen: Great.
• 42:30
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 42:31
  Kattlen: Yeah.
• 42:31
  Tracy: That's a good call.
• 42:32
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 42:34
  Tracy: Good call.
• 42:35
  Tracy: And I think it's trusting that, um, the right people are gonna come together as well.
• 42:40
  Tracy: You know?
• 42:40
  Tracy: Mm. Sometimes there are, there are some that, um, are there to show us things that we need to see for ourselves.
• 42:46
  Tracy: Mm.
• 42:47
  Kattlen: Absolutely.
• 42:48
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 42:49
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 42:50
  Tracy: Well, I'm gonna, um, leave it there, but again, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, and, uh, look forward to, yeah, seeing where you take this.
• 43:01
  Tracy: Thank you, Tracey.
• 43:03
  Kattlen: It has been such an honor and a pleasure to be here to- today with you.
• 43:08
  Tracy: It goes quick, doesn't it?
• 43:10
  Tracy: Speaking to you.
• 43:10
  Tracy: Like, this time goes
• 43:11
  Kattlen: really quick.
• 43:11
  Kattlen: Yes.
• 43:12
  Tracy: Oh, my.
• 43:13
  Tracy: Yes.
• 43:13
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 43:15
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 43:19
  Tracy: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright.
• 43:23
  Tracy: That's Tracey with no E .cartwright.
• 43:26
  Tracy: And, or head over to my website, traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 43:35
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it