Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Surviving High Conflict Divorce, Custody Battles, and Parental Alienation
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to It's All Your Fault Unru Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those that involve someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:23): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:24): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In today's episode, we're going to answer questions about high conflict divorce, child custody battles, and alienation, also referred to as parental alienation or child alienation. As you all know, family court is a big place for battles, so we're going to answer a few questions from our listeners and thank you for sending those in. But first, a couple of notes. Please send your high conflict related questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll also find all the show notes and links. So thank you for listening today. We hope this will be really helpful. And Bill, I'm going to go ahead and just dive in with the first question from a listener. Speaker 2 (01:27): Sounds good. Speaker 1 (01:28): It says, I'm coming to the end of a prolonged separation and divorce that should have been uncomplicated. We have no children and both have financially stable careers, so no spousal support is needed. Now that I can see my former partner for his repeated pattern of blaming behavior, I've done my best to follow the suggestions in your book splitting. I'm trying to not be bullied and claim the possessions and accounts that are rightfully mine, though it's been a fight and he has involved the police due to several reasons. In his distorted reality, he has consistently rejected offers in which he would pay me out of my half of the home that we own together. We failed at mediation and my lawyer therapist and high conflict legal consultant all believe mediation will fail again. The amount for the house that I would get would barely cover legal costs of taking this to court and would cost me many more months Being connected to him, settling without being paid for the house feels like a concession to his distorted reality. How do I reconcile my want to settle and cut ties versus the want to stand ground as a formerly emotionally manipulated ex-partner? Speaker 2 (02:41): This really comes in my mind in the category of choosing your battles. In other words, there's no perfect answer to this. You have to wait for yourself. What's more important? One of the big things that people get stuck on is they want to convince the emotionally manipulative ex-partner that they have been emotionally manipulative and inappropriate. And it probably is helpful to know that that will never happen if they're a high conflict person, if they have a personality disorder and this is if then they don't have self-awareness. And so you're not going to get with a sledgehammer or a whisper or a long letter or a short letter. You're not going to get the kind of insight that would be wonderful to have in this situation. So I think that's one thing that's most fundamental in here is that's what we call one of the four. Speaker 2 (03:49): Forget about it. Giving high conflict people insight into themselves. So if you set that aside, you still have to wait for yourself. Are you willing to fight and maybe get some money that it sounds like you're clearly due or do you settle and let go of that and feel like you've made a concession? And that's why you have to look at this. Think of this as choices and choosing battles is very much a choice. I encourage people to think of it objectively if I do this, this, this, and this versus if I do that and that and that. How you feel is going to mostly come from yourself and telling yourself, I feel okay, I made a wise choice so I could move on with my life. Or I made a wise choice to fight for something that is mine and that I deserve. No simple clear cut answer. Speaker 2 (04:53): 10 different people answer this 10 different ways. So I think the thing is look at weighing. Sometimes it helps to draw a line down the middle of a paper and do the pros and cons of each approach by the time you get done making that list. I've done pros and cons lists like that and I discover, oh, well the cons list is three times as long as the pros list. So I think I'm not going to pursue that. But the other thing is that's kind of a left brain decision-making system is then set it aside, go for a walk or play a game or talk to a friend but don't think about it. And then sometimes it pops into your mind a reason, yes, you really should set limits and proceed here and fight for what's yours or it's really not worth the battle and your life is more important than this issue. So those are some ways to approach it because we can't make it clear cut with these kinds of personalities that's choosing your battles. Speaker 1 (06:02): Yeah, I think people are often disappointed that there's no magic wand that will work with everything in high conflict, but like you said, picking your battles and having those little successes along the way, and I think you feel empowered when you have maybe written that pros and cons list and you can make a very informed decision or at least as informed as you can be. Speaker 2 (06:29): One more thought and that's about the mediation with high conflict people. I encourage people to try mediation once and if you're making some progress, meet again. If you're not making any progress, once is enough, don't beat your head against the wall, either move on to the court system and have decisions made or decide it's time to just stop the battle. But prolonging mediation with high conflict people really leaves people feeling frustrated and you spend the money, and I'm saying this as a mediator for 40 years, I totally believe in mediation, but I also believe that high conflict people, some high conflict people just will go nowhere in mediation. And once you figure that out, stop pursuing mediation. Speaker 1 (07:21): And so how would you recommend stopping that? Will it kind of make the other party flare up? Speaker 2 (07:29): Mediation usually works with several sessions. So if the first session you feel like this is a total dead end, the other side's not at all flexible and I don't see any reason that this would change, then don't keep hitting your head against the wall. If something changes, there's new information or the other person does make a small concession that you think, well maybe there's some room here, then definitely give it another session, another try. So it's just basically whether to keep having sessions. That's how it stops so often as people go, okay, nothing happened here, there's no reason to have another session, so we're done. Speaker 1 (08:14): And so it's really a form of setting a limit, making a decision for yourself and setting a limit and saying, here's what I'm going to do, instead of feeling like I'm so pressured by the other party that I don't know what to do and I'm walking on eggshells, but make a decision for yourself. That's okay. Speaker 2 (08:30): Yes, absolutely. Speaker 1 (08:32): So this is kind of a nice segue into the next question that's come up, which is how do you approach mediation for a high conflict divorce with a high conflict person and how do you know when you need to consider the small win enough? Speaker 2 (08:46): Well, this does flow exactly seriously. When you start a divorce case and you think it may or not be high conflict or you think it might be high conflict is still seriously consider at least having a mediation session typically of at least two hours to give it a shot. Ideally work with a lawyer who you can talk through strategy, what your options are, what to ask for, what's high priority for you, what's low priority for you so that you feel pretty well prepared and you and your lawyer are on the same page. So there's a line I won't go past, but I can be flexible within above that line. Also, think of things that you can give and take someone. You can call them concessions if you want, but generally negotiations are a give and take process. So don't ask for your bottom line, so to speak, ask for more, ask what you want, but be willing to negotiate to a lesser amount, but know where the end is. Speaker 2 (10:02): I also suggest with parenting issues, don't make concessions or negotiate past what you think is healthy and good for the children. On the other hand, with financial issues, sometimes it's worth it to walk away from some money or to give up some a little more than you might feel is reasonable or the law might require. I've had some of my worst cases were actually may have settled in mediation if they had accepted an extra $5,000 payment that they had to make or that they only received 5,000 less than what they deserved. Money is more flexible, but don't be too flexible about the kids you want. What's healthy for them? Ask for what you're seeking. How do you know when it's time to walk out and stop? Kind of as I was saying earlier with the prior question is if you've given a good couple hours shot, you've talked about the issues, there's absolute rigidity from the other side and there's no reason that you think they're going to be anything other than rigid, then that may be sufficient. Speaker 2 (11:21): I don't think you need to walk out of a mediation session. I don't recommend that because that doesn't look, I don't know what word to use. Mature doesn't look mature, doesn't look grown up. Yeah, you might feel like that, but just end the session when it's supposed to end, give it your best shot and then don't go back. And I've had cases where there's high conflict. People who are happy to endlessly mediate, they know they're not going to give anything and don't get stuck with that. Litigation isn't the end of the world. It may be close to the end of the world, but sometimes you have to have a judge who's guided by laws and standards make a reasonable decision that a high conflict person just will never agree to on their own. So work closely with a lawyer to get good estimation of what's realistic there, even if it's just consulting with a lawyer or retaining a lawyer. Speaker 1 (12:21): Okay, good information Bill. So we're going to take a quick break and be right back. Listeners, if you're loving our podcast, we'd love it if you'd subscribe and leave a review for us, we'll be right back. Speaker 1 (12:44): Okay, bill, we're back after that short break and we're going to talk now about another high conflict case. Another question that's come in. There's a lot of alienation that's happened and this is coming from a woman who's married to a guy that's been previously married and has children and is having to deal with a lot. So there's been a lot of frustration and they just kind of feel like over these years of alienating behavior, even against their extended members of the family, they just feel like they're going through the motions and feels like no matter what they do or say or don't do or say, there's just going to be issues and problems and it seems inevitable. Her husband who is the father of these children, he just feels like he's really at a loss as to what to do and feels like his parenting journey was sabotaged and stolen from him. Speaker 1 (13:40): And I find that really sad, bill. Just those words have a lot of impact, right? Sabotaged and stolen. There's only so many years you get to have a parent or to have a child in those formative years. So it's not a very big part of an adult's life necessarily, but it feels like a very big part of a child's life, and if you're in an alienation case, of course it feels like a big part of your life. So I don't mean to minimize that. So in this case, the kids put their mother first above everyone and even themselves, I see that she has slowly disintegrated our importance to them and the kids don't seem to see it. The youngest has made comments that her mom is a narcissist and scary and knows if she doesn't do everything. She says that her mom will be scary. Speaker 1 (14:29): This includes what sports she does, cars she buys with her own money, friends that she has, clothes she wears, hairdressers, she uses, and the list goes on and on. We've always had to take the high road to take the pressure off. They saw a counselor who we were told specialized in these cases, and the counselor's advice was to let the oldest child go and live her mom and for us to just let go and stop trying that she will come back to you later. Like I said, she hasn't and won't even look at us in public. I'm feeling discouraged and defeated. How can you help? Speaker 2 (15:07): This is a very likely classic alienation situation and alienation is an area that's, it's just growing in importance and numbers of cases we're up to now 20 to 25% of contested custody cases reportedly have an alienation issue, and this is a worldwide problem. I speak in Canada a lot and Canadians written books about this as well as in the United States and other countries, alienation's complex. So let me give you some basics about it. First of all, when a child resists a parent and doesn't look at you in public and all of that, there's at least two possibilities. One is that there's actually been some bad behavior by the parent they're rejecting, and that would be called realistic estrangement, child abuse, domestic violence, terrible parenting, verbal abuse, et cetera. That's often ruled out in these cases, but it has to be checked because they look the same on the surface. Speaker 2 (16:20): But at that's been ruled out, this looks like in this case it has. Then what's the reason the child's resisting the father and the new stepmother? So what happens with this is they're exposed to a parent who basically lacks emotional boundaries. So often you see the mother in this case is likely trying to treat the children as her friends, her buddies shares all her thoughts and feelings with them, especially her criticisms of dad, all of that. So there's a lot of sharing that's really oversharing that shouldn't be happening. Parents need emotional boundaries with their children, and if they don't, then you get situations like this. It is alienating behaviors. There's no parental alienation syndrome that's pretty much not recognized by courts and mental health professionals. On the other hand, alienating behaviors that can lead to such resistance are generally understood and accepted by family law professionals, mental health professionals and courts. Speaker 2 (17:33): So you'll see behaviors as the thing to focus on. With that said, you've got one of these situations it appears and the question is what to do about it. So first of all, the message that just let the kids go and they'll come back to you when they're adults. It's not guaranteed. So I recommend against saying that to parents say often that does happen, but not all the time. I've had cases where that didn't happen until the kids were in their forties, and so you don't want to assume that that's going to happen and just let go that easily. Generally nowadays, the courts are the ones often involved in these cases and it totally depends on the knowledge of the judge and the professionals involved. If they understand alienation, then they understand that alienating behaviors do need to stop, and there's two ways to do that. Speaker 2 (18:36): One is have family counseling that includes the parent who's engaged in alienating behaviors so that they reduce those behaviors and that they are guided in a family counseling by a counselor that understands this and can help the mother cease doing alienating behaviors and support the father's relationship. We use that approach in our new ways for method, which has three parent child sessions with each parent, including how you're going to support the other parent. The other way that this has been dealt with is to have a change of custody to the rejected parent and have the favored parent who's engaged in alienating behaviors, and this has to be established, can't be assumed, has to be established, then have that parent have no contact for a while. Now, a lot of alienation experts say 60 to 90 days of no contact while the child reconnects and lives with and returns to the positive relationship that they used to have with the father. Speaker 2 (19:51): There's a lot of difficulty with that. Judges don't like to do that kind of large method of intervention, and legislatures are now saying that you shouldn't cut off primary custodial parent like that. And so having reunification counseling with the rejected parent may be blocked or discouraged because of that. It's very much to me a live issue, but legislatures, including in California are considering rules and laws like that, which is regrettable, but I know there's been some bad cases and until professionals get better at doing this, I understand why legislatures have intervened. Those are two approaches, and the third is to let go. If you do let go, don't completely let go. I always encourage people, send cards, send emails or texts and say, here's something I learned today. I thought you would like to know this. Tell them something you've accomplished. Don't make it about the conflict is talk about life. Speaker 2 (21:04): Those are three choices here. Remember choosing your battles, do nothing but send cards, notes, things like that, photocopy those so that you have a copy because someday the child may say, why didn't you try to reach out to me? Why didn't you fight for me? And you can show what you did. So that's one option. The other options really push for family counseling. That includes the parent that's engaged in alien named behaviors so that they change those behaviors. And the third is the change of custody and a period of no contact. Even if you get like an alternating week parenting schedule, that may help because the other parent isn't intruding during your week, but you have to decide if it's worth going to court and fighting like that. One last thing I want to say is in my book splitting, I recommend that, and I conflict parenting disputes that you consider fighting hard for two years at most, and then stop. I've had cases where they fought over alienation issues for two years. They didn't get better, they got worse, and then they stopped, and then three years later the kids came around. So it can happen. There's no guarantees. Speaker 1 (22:25): Yeah, so it's just a sad and unfortunate circumstance, and I think there's things like you said, that can be done to help. But again, no magic wand, although we wish we had one, maybe we should have meant one bill. The look on your face is saying, we can't probably invent a magic wand. Speaker 2 (22:47): Exactly. Exactly. I wish we could. Speaker 1 (22:50): Wish we could. Exactly. Well, we hope this has been helpful to everyone listening, and we thank you for listening to us week after week, Speaker 1 (23:06): Next week now we'll be talking about Antisocial personality disorder, and I know Bill, you've been doing a lot of research and writing on this recently, so I'm sure it'll be quite a robust conversation. So send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast and we'd love it if you tell your friends, family, and colleagues about us, and we'd really grateful if you'd leave a five star review so we can keep growing and helping more people around the world. Until next time, keep learning and practicing so you can be confident in your human interactions. In high conflict situations. As you do, your life will become more peaceful. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.