Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / The ABCD of true resilience, with Dr Alia Bojilova - Part One

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The ABCD of true resilience, with Dr Alia Bojilova - Part One · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:02
Speaker 1: What if you could train your mind to not just
0:05
Speaker 1: cope with stress, but actually thrive under pressure, and as
0:09
Speaker 1: well as that improve your resilience, your gratitude, and even
0:13
Speaker 1: your cognitive function. Well, I have an opportunity for you.
0:17
Speaker 1: For the first time ever. I am running a full
0:20
Speaker 1: day public workshop that's going to be accompanied with a
0:23
Speaker 1: six week hardiness program. And this is based on the
0:27
Speaker 1: randomized control trial that I recently published, the title of
0:32
Speaker 1: which is Effects of a Multimodal Psychophysiological Training Intervention on
0:37
Speaker 1: Cognitive fitness, hardiness, and well Being of Corporate Professionals.
0:42
Speaker 2: Basically, what you will get is a.
0:44
Speaker 1: Full day workshop on hardiness training that has been shown
0:48
Speaker 1: to prove all three elements control orientation, challenge orientation, and
0:52
Speaker 1: commitment orientation and hardiness has been called the courage to
0:56
Speaker 1: grow from stress. But as well as that, ticipants in
1:00
Speaker 1: this study had a twenty seven percent increase in mood,
1:03
Speaker 1: they had a twenty six percent reduction in their perception
1:07
Speaker 1: of the stress in their life. They had improvements in
1:10
Speaker 1: resilience and gratitude, all three components of hardiness and of
1:15
Speaker 1: cognitive function. So the workshop is going to be a
1:17
Speaker 1: full day workshop. It's going to occur on Sunday, the
1:21
Speaker 1: twenty sixth of October at Deacon University Burwood Campus. The
1:25
Speaker 1: doors will open at eight thirty am and the workshop
1:29
Speaker 1: will run from nine to four thirty pm. And in
1:32
Speaker 1: addition to that, you will get a signed copy of
1:35
Speaker 1: my book before it's actually released, and you will get
1:39
Speaker 1: six weeks on the Hardiness app that was part of
1:43
Speaker 1: the randomized control trial. This has a whole host of
1:47
Speaker 1: different things in the toolbox. It's got workouts, it's got meditations,
1:51
Speaker 1: it's got guided breathing sessions. There's a ritual board, there's
1:54
Speaker 1: a whole host of educational videos, and much much more.
1:58
Speaker 2: So.
1:58
Speaker 1: If you're interested in growing from stress, optimizing your health
2:03
Speaker 1: and living longer, this is the workshop and program for you.
2:07
Speaker 1: So more details can be found on my website www
2:11
Speaker 1: dot Paul Taylor dot biz.
2:13
Speaker 2: Hope to see you there.
2:23
Speaker 1: Doctor Aliyah bud Ylova, Welcome to the podcast.
2:27
Speaker 3: Good morning, good morning, thank you for having me.
2:31
Speaker 1: I am currently reading a book called The Resilience Toolkit
2:37
Speaker 1: by doctor Alia bud Jlova, and it says a proven
2:41
Speaker 1: four step process to unlock your true potential, and it
2:44
Speaker 1: should say underneath it written by a P. Academic in resilience.
2:51
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you.
2:53
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what.
2:54
Speaker 1: If I hear another psychologist say that resilience is all
2:58
Speaker 1: about self care and self compassion, I'm going to throttle somebody.
3:06
Speaker 3: There is a collection of us that will help you out.
3:09
Speaker 3: If that's the case, we'll help you.
3:14
Speaker 2: So look, it's very interesting.
3:16
Speaker 1: We've got quite interesting parallels, right, both from Europe, from
3:21
Speaker 1: rather challenging parts of Europe at the time. Both immigrants
3:25
Speaker 1: to the furthest flung part of the world.
3:28
Speaker 2: You're over the ditch in New Zealand and I'm in Australia.
3:31
Speaker 1: And both joined the military. Both did PhDs in the
3:35
Speaker 1: area of resilient stress, hardiness, that sort of stuff. So
3:39
Speaker 1: kind of both p academics in this area. So tell
3:44
Speaker 1: our listeners, what was it like growing up in Eastern Europe?
3:51
Speaker 1: When you were when you were there, what we are
3:54
Speaker 1: memories of it?
3:55
Speaker 3: The first thing I wanted to say is every step
3:57
Speaker 3: of the way when you were finding parallel So I
3:59
Speaker 3: just wanted to high five you well done, well done,
4:02
Speaker 3: but you'd know perhaps from your own journey. I don't
4:05
Speaker 3: want to draw too many similarities or too many parallels.
4:08
Speaker 3: Too early to me growing up in Eastern Europe was
4:11
Speaker 3: all I knew. But more importantly, at that stage of life,
4:15
Speaker 3: it was invigorating. The challenges were meaningful. There was some
4:19
Speaker 3: kind of do you know the curious pieces? There is
4:21
Speaker 3: this saying, and I don't know if it's in Bulgarian
4:23
Speaker 3: or not, but resistance is existence and it just states perfectly,
4:30
Speaker 3: isn't it curious? Do you know what I mean? Because
4:32
Speaker 3: on the flip side of that, you have the kind
4:34
Speaker 3: of the agony of indulgence where you don't have something
4:38
Speaker 3: to grapple with, something to bite into and something to
4:41
Speaker 3: struggle against. So perhaps it was because it was too
4:44
Speaker 3: young to process the wider scope of challenges that exist
4:48
Speaker 3: in my environment. I actually found it invigorating, purposeful, Yes, challenging,
4:54
Speaker 3: but more importantly, it felt like it had deep meaning.
4:58
Speaker 3: The sorts of challenges we confront, the opportunity to establish yourself,
5:02
Speaker 3: to find your own voice in this messy environment was
5:07
Speaker 3: very satisfying.
5:09
Speaker 1: And when tell me this, when did you come across
5:13
Speaker 1: Victor Frankel? Because I read Man Search for Meeting as
5:17
Speaker 1: a seventeen year old, and I had a pretty profound
5:19
Speaker 1: effect in my life.
5:21
Speaker 2: When did you first read about Frankel.
5:25
Speaker 3: Well, my godmother, who is an amazing woman in Bulgaria,
5:28
Speaker 3: introduced me to Frankel, perhaps a test too early, and
5:32
Speaker 3: then I had my second encounter with Frankel in a
5:34
Speaker 3: context I could better understand that, which was actually in
5:37
Speaker 3: New Zealand my first year at university. A dear friend
5:40
Speaker 3: of mine gave me the book and the seren depity
5:43
Speaker 3: behind that, you know, the connection made me really deepen
5:46
Speaker 3: my appetite for it. But Victor Frankel, my first introduction
5:49
Speaker 3: would have probably been about around about the age of
5:52
Speaker 3: thirteen fourteen.
5:53
Speaker 2: Oh my, wow, that's very cool.
5:57
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk all things resilience, and I am,
6:01
Speaker 1: as you'll have noted, doing a PhD in resilience. It's
6:04
Speaker 1: a kind of a slippery term really when it comes
6:09
Speaker 1: to from an academic perspective.
6:12
Speaker 2: Is it a state?
6:14
Speaker 1: Is it a t is it a process? Is it
6:17
Speaker 1: an outcome? Is it something that we have or something
6:20
Speaker 1: that we do? And I love flicking through your book
6:24
Speaker 1: and reading the line resilience is a process. So tell
6:30
Speaker 1: us the difference between the listeners between what I just
6:34
Speaker 1: talked about that that st treat, process outcome.
6:38
Speaker 3: The first thing I want to underline is I hope
6:42
Speaker 3: none of us have any illusion that resilience isn't the necessity.
6:46
Speaker 3: It is a critical necessity. It is something we cannot
6:48
Speaker 3: do without, even if it is making away from here
6:51
Speaker 3: to your destination today, you know. And so I think
6:54
Speaker 3: when we're thinking about resilience for the longest of time,
6:57
Speaker 3: is being described as a characteristic that comes from metallurgy,
7:01
Speaker 3: you know, like how much can you handle before you break?
7:04
Speaker 3: And that infuriates me because it misses the whole point, right. So,
7:08
Speaker 3: to me, resilience is a pursuit. It's not a thing
7:12
Speaker 3: that you were born with necessarily. Yes, we all have
7:14
Speaker 3: it to some degree or another, but it needs to
7:17
Speaker 3: be something that is woven in subjectively through our own
7:21
Speaker 3: experience of life and very deliberately nurtured in order for
7:24
Speaker 3: us to grow it and to continue to rely on
7:27
Speaker 3: it in different phases and stages. So to me, it
7:30
Speaker 3: is a process. It is a state that is always elusive,
7:36
Speaker 3: and that's the piece that we have to keep remembering.
7:38
Speaker 3: You know, it's not just you know, you show up,
7:40
Speaker 3: you've got it, you crack on with life in your
7:42
Speaker 3: rock star sure for a hot second, but then the
7:46
Speaker 3: job of life is to continuously challenge you. If you
7:48
Speaker 3: live life well that is, you know, if you hide
7:50
Speaker 3: under a rock, that's a separate story, that's another book.
7:54
Speaker 3: But that's the piece I think that matters most.
7:57
Speaker 1: Had you just reminded me of I've had doctor Stanley
8:01
Speaker 1: Beacham on my podcast a couple of times, and and
8:05
Speaker 1: he said something that's really stuck in my head. He
8:09
Speaker 1: said that that in order to live your best life,
8:11
Speaker 1: you need to take on as much challenge and responsibility
8:14
Speaker 1: as you will tolerate as you can tolerate, right, which
8:19
Speaker 1: is a friggin cool And and he, you know, he
8:21
Speaker 1: said something else that I just know that you're going
8:24
Speaker 1: to love. He said, every nine and then you need
8:27
Speaker 1: to walk right to the edge of yourself and stir
8:30
Speaker 1: into the abyss.
8:32
Speaker 3: Yes please, Yeah, How good is that? You nearly you
8:38
Speaker 3: nearly had me at as much as you can handle?
8:41
Speaker 3: And then I thought, how do you? How do you
8:43
Speaker 3: know that? Right in my in my little community of
8:47
Speaker 3: you know, reflective thinkers, we we are practitioners more than that.
8:53
Speaker 3: We talk about the spinning edge of possibility, right, And
8:56
Speaker 3: so that isn't it delicious in fact to call that
9:00
Speaker 3: before my publisher said, you know, someone has to read
9:03
Speaker 3: it in that title doesn't appeal, But you know, like
9:06
Speaker 3: the spinning edge of just constantly nudging, testing, exploring, seeing
9:11
Speaker 3: just what's possible for you, you know.
9:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah.
9:16
Speaker 1: I remember a maid of mine in the military. It
9:19
Speaker 1: was a bit mad, it was a bit out there,
9:21
Speaker 1: but he always said, if you're not right on the edge,
9:24
Speaker 1: you're taking up too much room.
9:29
Speaker 3: Do you already love this podcast? I was, do you know?
9:34
Speaker 3: This morning? I was going to prepare myself, and then
9:36
Speaker 3: I thought, no, I'm just going to flow with it.
9:38
Speaker 3: Don't judge me for my hippie words. But and now
9:41
Speaker 3: I'm realizing we have the perfect collection of sound bites
9:44
Speaker 3: just spontaneously emerging.
9:46
Speaker 1: That's cool indeed, So let let's talk about you and
9:51
Speaker 1: your background.
9:51
Speaker 2: Let's talk about it.
9:52
Speaker 1: Before we dig into the whole process. I think the
9:55
Speaker 1: context is really helpful here. Let's talk about May two
9:59
Speaker 1: thousand and thirty in Syria. First of all, what were
10:03
Speaker 1: you doing there?
10:05
Speaker 2: Then? Secondly, and then talk us through what actually happened.
10:11
Speaker 3: So twenty twelve, twenty thirteen was my final deployment with
10:15
Speaker 3: the New Zealand Defense Force as an army officer. I
10:18
Speaker 3: had completed a number of deployments beforehand, and this was
10:21
Speaker 3: the greatest gift of all. So I was selected to
10:24
Speaker 3: serve with a UN mission, the oldest UN military mission
10:28
Speaker 3: on the planet called Anso, and it serves across five
10:31
Speaker 3: different countries. So you know, you've got Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Syria,
10:36
Speaker 3: in Egypt, and I got picked for the best of
10:39
Speaker 3: them all, or the most happening as it was at
10:42
Speaker 3: the time, Syria. So in May twenty thirteen, I had
10:47
Speaker 3: been in the mission area for already four months after
10:50
Speaker 3: some training in Israel, and in May twenty thirteen, after
10:55
Speaker 3: a series of critical incidences, myself and two of my
10:58
Speaker 3: colleagues were taken hosted out of a UN base in
11:02
Speaker 3: the middle of the night, unarmed by over thirty eight
11:06
Speaker 3: heavily armed militia members. This particular incident was quite narrowly
11:12
Speaker 3: because it had all the markings of a new script
11:16
Speaker 3: that UN had not experienced in the operation in the
11:19
Speaker 3: area of operation at the time. So we have had
11:22
Speaker 3: a number of UN military observers who had been snatched
11:26
Speaker 3: from the road and returned. We had loss of UN
11:30
Speaker 3: military observer's life over time over the years, but military
11:35
Speaker 3: installations or buildings effectively were considered the no gos on
11:39
Speaker 3: and that had not changed. And so the fact the
11:42
Speaker 3: fact that this threshold was crossed basically meant that we
11:47
Speaker 3: are well. We are toasted. We thought everyone else did.
11:52
Speaker 3: The group that took us was notorious, not for good reasons.
11:57
Speaker 3: And yet we managed to talk our way out of
11:59
Speaker 3: our recmment. And I'm standing here teatting to.
12:02
Speaker 1: You today, and and was there a point I think
12:07
Speaker 1: you kind of alluded to it already, the fact that
12:10
Speaker 1: they crossed a threshold and had actually gone into a
12:13
Speaker 1: un building and snatched you writing your brain is going
12:18
Speaker 1: this is different, this is different. Already talk us through.
12:22
Speaker 1: What was the conversation like amongst the three of you
12:27
Speaker 1: at that come to Jesus moment.
12:31
Speaker 3: The beauty and the and the beauty if we let it.
12:35
Speaker 3: Critical incidences of this nature is that they guide you,
12:40
Speaker 3: you know, when you snatched in a situation that is
12:43
Speaker 3: as acute as this. The element of surprise channels or
12:47
Speaker 3: challenges you to channel your energy very intentionally. We didn't
12:50
Speaker 3: have to dilly. Daily conversations were parallel the world with
12:54
Speaker 3: one another. We were discouraged from having conversations with each
12:57
Speaker 3: other for a while, right, okay, But in those initial stages,
13:02
Speaker 3: you look to find the tiny opening that you have,
13:05
Speaker 3: hoping that everyone is on the same on the same mission,
13:08
Speaker 3: which is survived, survived the moment, you know, which is
13:11
Speaker 3: really interesting. It's it's so as a context at the time,
13:17
Speaker 3: the threatening area was quite high, and so we had
13:21
Speaker 3: one of us at all times on beauty at night
13:25
Speaker 3: to observe and monitor. One of my colleagues was already
13:29
Speaker 3: aware that things were happening, but he didn't have a
13:31
Speaker 3: full arch of sight, so he couldn't evaluate. He didn't
13:34
Speaker 3: he didn't realize that there were, you know, thirty men
13:37
Speaker 3: climbing over the fence whilst he was observing the handful
13:40
Speaker 3: in front of him. So jumped over the fence that
13:44
Speaker 3: had broken the way into our compound effectively. And by
13:48
Speaker 3: the time when my colleague logged onto that and started
13:52
Speaker 3: making madacres to our headquarters, I could see a bunch
13:56
Speaker 3: of them creeping in from the back, which is where
13:58
Speaker 3: my quarters were, my my quarters being a tiny room
14:01
Speaker 3: in a container building. And at that point I actually
14:05
Speaker 3: woke up with someone smashing a window in our building.
14:09
Speaker 3: That stage, you know what I mean, don't. You don't
14:11
Speaker 3: have time to sit there and put your lipstick on
14:13
Speaker 3: and start, you know, there wasn't. We didn't have that
14:17
Speaker 3: kind of luxury. And that's a good because actually I
14:21
Speaker 3: reflect on this often. We know, we think about situations
14:25
Speaker 3: like this where someone takes you. In our context, when
14:29
Speaker 3: they took us, they told us that they're taking us
14:31
Speaker 3: to make a bad.
14:32
Speaker 2: Video of us with that straight away.
14:35
Speaker 3: So decapitation, right, Amy, you. I mean, we spent a
14:39
Speaker 3: lot of time collecting intelligence from random equivalent of YouTube videos,
14:45
Speaker 3: just killing time, observing and trying to work out what's
14:49
Speaker 3: happening in our environment, so that threat didn't seem out
14:55
Speaker 3: of context. The fact that we were in that threat
14:59
Speaker 3: and we swimming our way to an uncertain future or
15:03
Speaker 3: a certain death was hunting part. So yeah, all you
15:07
Speaker 3: had time for is find a way through, you know.
15:11
Speaker 1: And talk to me about that process of finding the
15:16
Speaker 1: way through. You said you talked your way out of it,
15:19
Speaker 1: and just just maybe expand on O a little bit
15:22
Speaker 1: for our listeners.
15:24
Speaker 3: You know, is when you have a wicked situation, the
15:29
Speaker 3: process expands and shrinks depending on how much you've got
15:33
Speaker 3: to work with. Any Right, this was a one not
15:37
Speaker 3: a one off conversation, right, we had to continue to
15:39
Speaker 3: dig in and try to work out what was in
15:41
Speaker 3: the mind of our captors. We got taken away from
15:45
Speaker 3: our environment, but before with it, we had a number
15:49
Speaker 3: of different opportunities within which we could strike a conversation
15:52
Speaker 3: with them or try to see what they see us as.
15:55
Speaker 3: If they saw us as an embuggerance, you know, the
15:58
Speaker 3: reactions and responses that would have to us would be
16:01
Speaker 3: a particular kind aggressive, uncompromising, brutal like. We had few
16:06
Speaker 3: of those nudges from the beginning, but one little thing
16:09
Speaker 3: that got me and gave me a sense of hope
16:11
Speaker 3: from the start. Here it is. It was the middle
16:14
Speaker 3: of the night, it was a cold night, and when
16:17
Speaker 3: someone broke through our building, they we had a couple
16:20
Speaker 3: of little moments in between that were quite peculiar. For example,
16:25
Speaker 3: our building was you know, soft skinned building. It was
16:27
Speaker 3: a container building. I tried to negotiate with an individual
16:31
Speaker 3: who was in front of us, who looked more like
16:34
Speaker 3: a school teacher than a nasty rebel. His eyes were kind,
16:38
Speaker 3: his disposition was one of confusion and kind of you know,
16:42
Speaker 3: he was a little disoriented. So he was an interpreter
16:45
Speaker 3: who had probably been picked up to speak to us
16:47
Speaker 3: in English. I tried to strike a conversation, tried to
16:51
Speaker 3: find kind of a calm way for us to negotiate
16:54
Speaker 3: our way out of our predicament before we got dragged
16:56
Speaker 3: out of the building. And I only stopped when someone
17:00
Speaker 3: pointed an RPG at our door. And when you like,
17:03
Speaker 3: when you have a container building and a tiny little
17:07
Speaker 3: door and an RPG pointed at you, in thinking, dude,
17:10
Speaker 3: you're just you're doing yourself harm. You know, the next
17:12
Speaker 3: day you want to see that. Yeah, let's just slow
17:14
Speaker 3: it down. And who we had to We had to abide.
17:17
Speaker 3: The door has been smashed behind us by that stage.
17:20
Speaker 3: And when I got picked up, a young man grabbed
17:24
Speaker 3: my grabbed my wrists, but his hands, the palm of
17:26
Speaker 3: his hands was sweaty and small little observation like that
17:31
Speaker 3: felt like he was nervous, right, and he prepared for
17:34
Speaker 3: him to be nervous. But I, in my endless wisdom,
17:36
Speaker 3: did something like I said to him, just wipe your hands,
17:39
Speaker 3: don't touch me with your hands, which is really weird
17:41
Speaker 3: thing to do. And he reacted in a way that
17:44
Speaker 3: surprised me. He was taken aback by my by my reaction,
17:49
Speaker 3: he kind of hesitated for a minute and did what
17:51
Speaker 3: I asked him to do, which is what I thought. Ah, Okay,
17:56
Speaker 3: they're not all on the same page. These more continue
18:01
Speaker 3: to stack up for us, and I think that's the
18:04
Speaker 3: job to be done. It doesn't matter how acute the situation,
18:07
Speaker 3: you look to find small little openings that can stack
18:10
Speaker 3: up towards you go. Our goal obvious clear as anything.
18:15
Speaker 3: There was no ambiguity survive or delay the inevitable long
18:20
Speaker 3: enough to see if you can find another way through.
18:22
Speaker 3: And so looking for those tiny, little micro moments to
18:25
Speaker 3: stack up to your benefit is the job of life.
18:29
Speaker 3: Whether this is in a cute situation like ours, whether
18:33
Speaker 3: this traveling through the daily grind of another wet Wednesday morning,
18:38
Speaker 3: you know. And so as we went on, we had
18:41
Speaker 3: a number of these situations that worked to our benefit
18:44
Speaker 3: that I think ultimately created the foundation for us to
18:47
Speaker 3: start a dialogue and to find a common ground with
18:49
Speaker 3: our worst adversary. There's something more to it, right if
18:52
Speaker 3: you were in these moments. No, some of us would
18:56
Speaker 3: assume that's military training. I think it's just humans, humans
19:01
Speaker 3: allowing themselves to allow the best judgment in what they
19:05
Speaker 3: perceived to be a crisis to drive them. You know,
19:09
Speaker 3: not allowing fear to take you on a walk about
19:13
Speaker 3: or to overwhelm you is somewhat easy when you're dealing
19:16
Speaker 3: with the acute we occupied surviving, you know, decisions faster.
19:21
Speaker 3: I have to tell you, we'd hand on heart. Whilst
19:23
Speaker 3: this was probably the most confronting situations in some ways,
19:29
Speaker 3: I found it way harder dealing with my boss in
19:32
Speaker 3: my first corporate role after the military. Then, do you
19:35
Speaker 3: know what I mean? Because you have so many different
19:39
Speaker 3: different ways out and the strategy gets messy and there
19:43
Speaker 3: are feelings, whereas in this instance it's very.
19:46
Speaker 1: Clear and presumably you were ready a psychologist at this point,
19:51
Speaker 1: were you yes?
19:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, So how much.
19:54
Speaker 1: Of your let's show you you're both a psychologist and
19:58
Speaker 1: independently you're an army officer and presumably in theater before
20:03
Speaker 1: you went in they give you some sort of combat
20:05
Speaker 1: survival resistance to interrogation training. What was more useful do
20:11
Speaker 1: you think in that moment? Was it the military specific training,
20:15
Speaker 1: was it your general understanding of psychology and human connection
20:20
Speaker 1: or was it a mix of those things?
20:23
Speaker 3: Do you know? I I spoke to my mentor many
20:28
Speaker 3: months later, many times not just about this incident, but
20:32
Speaker 3: countless others. And I've come to realize it's not being
20:35
Speaker 3: necessarily a psychologist or being an officer, but what he
20:39
Speaker 3: calls being an averagely good human. And I actually I
20:43
Speaker 3: reckon that's the recipe. So yes, the military training we
20:46
Speaker 3: had conducted prior to that, I was privileged to have
20:48
Speaker 3: served with one in that essays in the county, Theroist
20:51
Speaker 3: Technics Group. Prior to this, we had really awesome preparation
20:56
Speaker 3: actually in Australia, so thank you ADF. There were rock
20:59
Speaker 3: stars us. In fact, some of the some of the
21:02
Speaker 3: elements in the conduct that they kept. The training we
21:04
Speaker 3: conducted in Australia were almost as if you know, Rebels
21:10
Speaker 3: some months later had read that book. It felt like
21:13
Speaker 3: a training exercise. The only difference is we knew you
21:16
Speaker 3: and did not have the money to pull it off
21:18
Speaker 3: in context. So yes, that did help because you condition
21:23
Speaker 3: yourself to have these moments of delayed response so that
21:26
Speaker 3: you can choose it.
21:28
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, big, big yeah.
21:32
Speaker 1: I remember when I did come back survival Resistance to
21:36
Speaker 1: interrogation training when we were being tactically questioned, which you
21:40
Speaker 1: know is not very pleasant in my head. When I
21:44
Speaker 1: asked the question, I would go one thousand and two
21:46
Speaker 1: thousand and three thousand.
21:47
Speaker 2: And then respond.
21:49
Speaker 1: And that gets to something we're going to talk about
21:52
Speaker 1: in your book, the difference between responding and reacting. But
21:57
Speaker 1: before we go there, what pulling in this journey? Did
22:01
Speaker 1: you start to have some hope that you were actually
22:05
Speaker 1: going to be Maybe that's maybe that's not the right question.
22:08
Speaker 2: Because you probably had hope the whole time.
22:11
Speaker 1: At what point did you start to have some conviction
22:14
Speaker 1: that you were potentially going to get out of this
22:19
Speaker 1: with your head intact on your shoulders the very.
22:23
Speaker 3: So you've got the bombastic version of events and you've
22:27
Speaker 3: got the real one, and the real one is always
22:28
Speaker 3: so much more confronting because it's got a lot of dull,
22:31
Speaker 3: strange moments. And so I say this because in our situation,
22:36
Speaker 3: we were released and we were walked through progressively diminishing
22:41
Speaker 3: number of people up the hill to the same place
22:44
Speaker 3: we got snatched out of right. And what I mean
22:46
Speaker 3: by that is we managed to negotiate our release or
22:50
Speaker 3: talk our way out of our situation, and then a
22:52
Speaker 3: handful of the men that held us ended up directing
22:56
Speaker 3: us back up the hill. When we got there, the
22:58
Speaker 3: only person left with us was one of the leaders,
23:02
Speaker 3: and the condition for our release was that we had
23:05
Speaker 3: secured an audience with the UN General in the region
23:08
Speaker 3: for him. And it almost sounds like Alice in Wonderland
23:11
Speaker 3: kind of a scenario. So you've just been through this
23:13
Speaker 3: absolutely horrendous event. We got Drake from Mindfields on the
23:18
Speaker 3: way in. On our way back, we knew the bypass
23:21
Speaker 3: AIA and we were walking with the person who took
23:23
Speaker 3: us up to our main main accommodation area, and literally
23:29
Speaker 3: just before we reached the fence decided they decided that
23:33
Speaker 3: they're going to make a video of us. And I thought,
23:35
Speaker 3: oh my, come on, we've been through this, we've talked
23:38
Speaker 3: about it, we've become best friends. You're going to make
23:40
Speaker 3: that video of decapitation right now. So it felt quite
23:43
Speaker 3: literally that you could see safety smell ad here, it
23:47
Speaker 3: touch it, but you're not there. So we got there
23:51
Speaker 3: and I had to record a video basically describing my
23:53
Speaker 3: keptors as being quite hospitable and caring, you know, the
23:57
Speaker 3: usual stuff that they wanted to have on film. And
24:00
Speaker 3: then we got insight of our compound and we had
24:03
Speaker 3: the U in general with the UN security forces that
24:06
Speaker 3: you could see filing up for miles and we had
24:09
Speaker 3: to serve a kept a cup of tea so that
24:11
Speaker 3: they can have a discussion with it. So, just up
24:14
Speaker 3: until the point at which we crossed the gates, we
24:17
Speaker 3: didn't know whether we were safe, whether this is some
24:19
Speaker 3: kind of grotesque staging, Yeah.
24:21
Speaker 2: Just LOCs of expectation, right, yes.
24:26
Speaker 3: Interesting, So until the last safe moment, we weren't quite
24:32
Speaker 3: sure that this is entirely.
24:33
Speaker 1: Over, you know, And what was the gift that was
24:39
Speaker 1: given to you through that whole process, if you like,
24:46
Speaker 1: as in, what did you take away from that that
24:49
Speaker 1: you think I'm going to use this for the rest
24:52
Speaker 1: of my life?
24:53
Speaker 3: Countless countless gifts. So the first, the first one, it's
24:58
Speaker 3: the gift that keeps on giving. And I mean, I
25:01
Speaker 3: haven't left that particular incident has left me with loads
25:06
Speaker 3: of opportunities to ask big questions of myself, of people
25:09
Speaker 3: I work with, the environment, I mean, in a scheme
25:12
Speaker 3: of things. It's a small event that became the catalyst
25:16
Speaker 3: for many more conversations right over time. But the starting
25:20
Speaker 3: point is humility. Humility and the ability through humility to
25:25
Speaker 3: appreciate that you are vulnerable and that is fine. That
25:29
Speaker 3: you can connect with other people even if they act
25:31
Speaker 3: like your worst adversary. And most important, to allow yourself
25:36
Speaker 3: to see through moments that appear to be finite, to
25:40
Speaker 3: not let yourself be tripped up by a script you
25:43
Speaker 3: think you need to follow, to constantly challenge and push yourself.
25:46
Speaker 3: I think that that cannot happen without humility.
25:49
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, that's interesting.
25:52
Speaker 1: And look, I'm not going to dive into the detail
25:55
Speaker 1: of it NW in terms of the negotiation, because I
25:57
Speaker 1: think that would probably come out when we talk how
26:00
Speaker 1: about your book?
26:01
Speaker 2: So firstly, I want to talk about the book.
26:04
Speaker 1: When did you decide that you needed to write a
26:07
Speaker 1: book on resilience and the resilience to.
26:11
Speaker 3: Probably, I mean, it wasn't It was never my intention.
26:14
Speaker 3: The incident died out in my mind as well, you know,
26:19
Speaker 3: like relatively quickly, and the sense of closure was there
26:23
Speaker 3: quite quickly too. But probably about a year into my
26:27
Speaker 3: completing my doctorate, I'd already been working with individuals, teams,
26:31
Speaker 3: and organizations for a very long time as a psychologist.
26:34
Speaker 3: I think it was in my twentieth year as a
26:36
Speaker 3: registered psych or nearing it, and I caught myself repeating
26:40
Speaker 3: the same heuristics over and over and over again. So
26:43
Speaker 3: to me writing the book was very much let's just
26:46
Speaker 3: put it all together. Let's get those soundbites and those
26:50
Speaker 3: components that have helped so many others out there in
26:53
Speaker 3: order for others to be able to use them, as
26:55
Speaker 3: that chapter in in Venus. Yes, the research much that
27:00
Speaker 3: I did was very much sponsored by the incident in Syria,
27:03
Speaker 3: but that was just the initial point. By the time
27:06
Speaker 3: when I'd been in Syria, I'd again countless lessons learned
27:09
Speaker 3: consciously or otherwise from some of the best people I've
27:12
Speaker 3: ever worked with, and these are members of the Essays
27:15
Speaker 3: and the Counter Theorist Tactics Group. Before I went to Syria,
27:18
Speaker 3: I had started conversation about completing my PhD in resilience.
27:23
Speaker 3: Completely by accident. I was actually about incable, and I
27:27
Speaker 3: reached out to this researcher wanting to find the most
27:30
Speaker 3: cutting edge tips and tools on rapid fire resilience built.
27:34
Speaker 3: How do you do that in action now, in times
27:38
Speaker 3: when you can't just pull out and sit via someone
27:40
Speaker 3: on a meditation deck and contemplate life right, Yes, And
27:45
Speaker 3: the response I got rather than a stack of tools.
27:47
Speaker 3: Was serendipitously, someone is looking for a researcher in this place?
27:51
Speaker 3: Are you interested in scholarship?
27:53
Speaker 2: So cool?
27:54
Speaker 3: PhD had started long before I had my crucible moment,
27:59
Speaker 3: and when that moment had and you know, some of
28:02
Speaker 3: the some of the hooks, some of the sayings, the phrases,
28:05
Speaker 3: the practices in life, the processes that I'd observed amongst
28:09
Speaker 3: those extraordinarily resilient human being side said with became very clear,
28:14
Speaker 3: very evident. So genuinely I wanted it to be out
28:17
Speaker 3: of my head and into the world because it wasn't mine.
28:21
Speaker 3: You know, I'm just a small little threat that carries
28:23
Speaker 3: it through. But the stories of the super troopers and
28:26
Speaker 3: epic humans needed to be out there.
28:30
Speaker 2: Tell me this.
28:31
Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk, and I'm quite rightly so,
28:36
Speaker 1: about veteran mental health and how number one, the human
28:42
Speaker 1: brain isn't designed to be put in very adverse circumstances
28:49
Speaker 1: for long periods of time repeatedly, over and over and over,
28:52
Speaker 1: which obviously contributes. But one of the other things, and
28:56
Speaker 1: some of the criticisms. There's been a review over here
28:58
Speaker 1: in Australia, as you probably we know, into veterans' mental health,
29:03
Speaker 1: and what was the debrief process like that you guys
29:08
Speaker 1: got having obviously been through something that is big T traumatic,
29:13
Speaker 1: right pisses me off. This little T trauma that people
29:16
Speaker 1: talk about that right center and my boyfriend broke up
29:20
Speaker 1: with me and I'm having trauma. So there's a difference
29:23
Speaker 1: between little TA and big TA trauma where big T
29:26
Speaker 1: is genuine fear for your life or others.
29:29
Speaker 2: Close to you.
29:31
Speaker 1: How useful or not was the debrief process that you
29:36
Speaker 1: guys got from the UN really enough?
29:40
Speaker 3: I think my honest observation on this connects to what
29:44
Speaker 3: we're observing with veterans these days as well, and that
29:47
Speaker 3: I don't know whether the risk or the impact has exacerbated.
29:51
Speaker 3: I think we are reporting it a whole key better.
29:54
Speaker 3: It is a significant issue. You have to confront it.
29:56
Speaker 3: But the best outcomes for me and for us didn't
30:01
Speaker 3: happen when we spoke to a psyche some time later.
30:04
Speaker 3: That happened because we requested we stay on the site
30:07
Speaker 3: we got snatched out of for thirty six hours after
30:11
Speaker 3: we were released, so what we wanted to do when
30:15
Speaker 3: our incident was complete, we got taken back to our
30:19
Speaker 3: holding area or the area that we were not living in.
30:23
Speaker 3: We got taken through a whole heap of tests, traveled around,
30:26
Speaker 3: you know, and then we requested that we stay in
30:29
Speaker 3: the same place they took us hostage out of, so
30:32
Speaker 3: that we can close the loop for ourselves.
30:34
Speaker 1: And yeah, that is a lot of people listening to
30:39
Speaker 1: this will be going you did what.
30:41
Speaker 2: I know you actually are, so.
30:45
Speaker 1: I get why I talk talk our listeners through why
30:49
Speaker 1: that process was important sins making.
30:54
Speaker 3: Since I can't remember which one of us came up
30:56
Speaker 3: with this idea, and I'm convinced the minute it was
30:59
Speaker 3: uttered of someone's mouth it was like, come on, I know,
31:03
Speaker 3: I have to agree now, but what a silly idea. Yet,
31:06
Speaker 3: what we wanted to do is close the loop on
31:08
Speaker 3: the event for ourselves, actually study every little nook and
31:12
Speaker 3: crany of this incident. Face the fear, Face the fears
31:15
Speaker 3: in the consequence of our experience, as opposed to let
31:18
Speaker 3: you know, when you have situations like this, the world
31:21
Speaker 3: wants to know about it. They want to kind of
31:23
Speaker 3: creep in and study it and break it apart. We
31:25
Speaker 3: wanted to close the loop for ourselves and complete that
31:28
Speaker 3: circle of that cheered experience together. The first thing we
31:32
Speaker 3: actually did is we went back to where we were
31:33
Speaker 3: taken from and cleaned the building up, which was the
31:36
Speaker 3: weirdest thing to do. It's like, why would you do that?
31:39
Speaker 3: And it was an instinctive thing. Is let me take
31:41
Speaker 3: control back of what has been snatched away from it.
31:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, and psychologically I'm cleaning the space as well.
31:48
Speaker 2: Interesting.
31:49
Speaker 3: It was strange. It was ubsolutely strange. And so and
31:52
Speaker 3: then as you go through this process, you're thinking about
31:54
Speaker 3: what's taking place. You're beginning to look at it objectively.
31:57
Speaker 3: You're beginning to learn a how hit more about different
32:00
Speaker 3: and responses, different reads on exactly the same trigger points,
32:04
Speaker 3: and how different ones of us reacted at different stages
32:07
Speaker 3: because of how we interpreted those pressure points. That was gold.
32:12
Speaker 3: And so it gives you a ton of different opportunities
32:15
Speaker 3: to look at this gremlin and go away, big T,
32:17
Speaker 3: small TI, who cares Let me just as it's a
32:20
Speaker 3: thing of beauty, you know, when you give it space
32:24
Speaker 3: to breed, to process it, to learn through it. The
32:27
Speaker 3: decision for us was, let us learn through it, let
32:30
Speaker 3: us just not have some kind of thing that pretends
32:34
Speaker 3: it has an opportunity to break us. And it was gold.
32:39
Speaker 3: So hand on how this was the best thing we
32:43
Speaker 3: could have possibly done. By the time when I got
32:46
Speaker 3: to see a psychologist, it was you know, some time later.
32:49
Speaker 3: I have profound level of respect for all people in
32:52
Speaker 3: our profession, right, But the intimacy of that she had experience,
32:56
Speaker 3: and most importantly, allowing yourself to work through the nuk
33:00
Speaker 3: syncrnis of it, I think matters most.
33:03
Speaker 2: And how important was it that you did that together?
33:05
Speaker 3: One hundred virtually the most important thing, because it's then
33:10
Speaker 3: when you face it as one which is not a
33:12
Speaker 3: luxury that everybody has. Right. Yes, yes, it's a different story,
33:17
Speaker 3: but the gaps in our own perceptions was closed relatively quickly.
33:23
Speaker 3: We could understand the complete picture. We could study it
33:26
Speaker 3: from different angles because we had the privilege of that
33:29
Speaker 3: she had experience. Now, what happens when you have individuals
33:33
Speaker 3: who have traveled that journey alone is a very separate story.
33:37
Speaker 3: The remarkable thing about humans is that it doesn't matter
33:40
Speaker 3: how unique we think our experience is. There's always someone
33:44
Speaker 3: who has had something a little like it. Yes, and
33:47
Speaker 3: we have to force ourselves or step ourselves out of
33:51
Speaker 3: our insulating kind of trauma and start looking for those
33:55
Speaker 3: parallels and similarities with the intent of growing from it.
34:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
34:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So let's not talk about the book, and I
34:04
Speaker 1: think all the listeners will have their ears pricked up
34:07
Speaker 1: because clearly you're not just somebody who's sitting behind a
34:11
Speaker 1: bunch of books writing theoretically about resilience. You have the
34:15
Speaker 1: lived experience, which I love this the p academic approach.
34:19
Speaker 1: So you talk about the abcds, awareness, belonging, curiosity, and drive.
34:26
Speaker 1: So let's let's start with awareness. So how is this
34:31
Speaker 1: different to from alertness? And then talk us through the
34:36
Speaker 1: three components you talk about self, situation and others.
34:41
Speaker 3: Oh, the unscribbling notes. Over the years, there's another A
34:44
Speaker 3: that has been added to the mix. But let's talk
34:46
Speaker 3: about the difference between alertness and a weirdness awareness. I
34:49
Speaker 3: think that their most important thing we discovered on you
34:53
Speaker 3: already when we stepped into a challenging, crucible moment was
34:58
Speaker 3: the critical importance of choosing how you stand in this
35:02
Speaker 3: particular context. So self awareness, interpersonal awareness, and situational awareness
35:07
Speaker 3: relates to being where you feed are with absolute clarity
35:11
Speaker 3: of where it is that you want to go right,
35:13
Speaker 3: which most of the time I don't think we do.
35:16
Speaker 3: I think most of the time we kind of stumble
35:18
Speaker 3: upon someplace and try to find a reason not to react.
35:22
Speaker 2: I want you to.
35:23
Speaker 1: Say that again, right, because it just took me a
35:25
Speaker 1: few seconds to process it. Because there's a lot in
35:27
Speaker 1: that being where your feet are and being clear are
35:31
Speaker 1: whatever and where you want to go.
35:32
Speaker 2: So I'll just unpack that a little bit.
35:35
Speaker 3: So being where you feed, are being grounded in your
35:39
Speaker 3: present moment as it is not as you wish it
35:42
Speaker 3: to be without most clarity of where you want to go.
35:46
Speaker 3: I don't know whether there is a better way to
35:49
Speaker 3: face a tricky situation than that.
35:52
Speaker 1: There's a huge tookes of acceptance, commitment, therapy in there
35:55
Speaker 1: isn't there.
35:57
Speaker 3: And do you know what's funny, I love that you
35:59
Speaker 3: say that because that is purely an experiential observation, That
36:03
Speaker 3: is observation based on experience. Right. The fact that there
36:07
Speaker 3: is a theory that holds it together, that there is
36:09
Speaker 3: a scaffolding that we have already discovered excites me to
36:12
Speaker 3: no end, and I think we have to keep on
36:14
Speaker 3: going that way. Rights, what's the experience showing us and
36:18
Speaker 3: how can we better understand it? So the starting point
36:22
Speaker 3: that awareness in the essays we used to call awareness
36:25
Speaker 3: the selection gate to selection. So you could be as
36:28
Speaker 3: strong as you think you can be in your life,
36:31
Speaker 3: you could be as resourced as you like. But unless
36:33
Speaker 3: you have that self awareness of understanding you triggers, the
36:37
Speaker 3: ways in which different input points affect you, and the
36:41
Speaker 3: clarity of how it is that you want to show up,
36:44
Speaker 3: then you toast again, right. And so we had had
36:48
Speaker 3: countess observations of individuals who are exceptionally well prepared against
36:52
Speaker 3: all objective criterias that when they face a challenge because
36:56
Speaker 3: the lack awareness, they fall by the wayside. You know,
36:59
Speaker 3: they get some prized by things and how things affect them.
37:03
Speaker 3: So awareness is understanding yourself words and all with all
37:08
Speaker 3: your triggers. Also having the ability to read the context
37:12
Speaker 3: as it is, not as you wish it to be,
37:13
Speaker 3: and that comes with contextual intelligence right, reading the cues
37:17
Speaker 3: in your environment, being able to adapt to tangle thems
37:20
Speaker 3: with them again intentionally. And the final one, of course,
37:25
Speaker 3: situational and interpersonal awareness, which is really respecting the context
37:29
Speaker 3: that you're in but never losing sight of how it
37:32
Speaker 3: is that you want to show up or what is
37:34
Speaker 3: the outcome that you want to achieve. So awarness is
37:37
Speaker 3: incredibly important. But I think a lot of the time
37:41
Speaker 3: when you're thinking about awareness, we actually are showing up
37:43
Speaker 3: with alertness, which is we show up anticipating the worst
37:47
Speaker 3: case scenario, limiting the beautiful, rich parts of our brain
37:51
Speaker 3: that are responsible for balance, reasoning, for creative thoughts, and
37:55
Speaker 3: shrinking things down to nothing better than reactions, perhaps stress
38:00
Speaker 3: up with few kind of you know, good looks around
38:03
Speaker 3: the way, around the edges. But really, alertness is the
38:08
Speaker 3: state that we find ourselves in when we haven't managed
38:11
Speaker 3: pressure effectively, when we haven't accepted that pressure is a
38:14
Speaker 3: galvanizing force as opposed to something that can trip us up.
38:18
Speaker 2: And where does at tension come into this.
38:23
Speaker 3: It's everywhere, It's in every part of it, right, And
38:25
Speaker 3: so I think attention, if you think about it, in
38:27
Speaker 3: a state of alertness, is to the worst case scenario,
38:30
Speaker 3: is to the things that the thing that might overwhelm
38:33
Speaker 3: you or trip you up. Whereas if you have attention
38:36
Speaker 3: in a state of awareness, it gives you multiple touch points.
38:40
Speaker 3: You can see the guide posts far ahead of yourself
38:43
Speaker 3: as opposed to just where you are or where the
38:45
Speaker 3: thread is.
38:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I just just on that reason, I masking
38:51
Speaker 1: because you did right about mindful attention, which I was
38:54
Speaker 1: delighted to see in the book. I was involved in
38:58
Speaker 1: a Delphi study recently on coggnitive fitness and looking at
39:03
Speaker 1: the what are the identifiable trainable parameters in the brand
39:08
Speaker 1: of performance under pressure? And it was it was organized
39:13
Speaker 1: by my PhD supervisor, so I managed to kind of
39:15
Speaker 1: get in there as one of the so called experts.
39:18
Speaker 1: But they basically surveyed over sixty military psychologists, sports psychologists
39:25
Speaker 1: and business psychologists and we were all asked to read
39:28
Speaker 1: it and these cognitive trainable cognitive primaries that they had
39:33
Speaker 1: identified and maybe suggest some others. The number one treate
39:39
Speaker 1: our number one cognitive primary that everybody said across the
39:43
Speaker 1: board for performance under pressure was attentional control.
39:47
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, and beg that and tag that for everyone please. Yeah.
39:52
Speaker 1: So basically that when the ship is hit the fan,
39:56
Speaker 1: were is the flashlight of your attention?
39:59
Speaker 2: Please? In that moment right are you in your own head?
40:03
Speaker 2: Are you being distracted by stuff?
40:06
Speaker 1: Or are you completely focused on the present moment and
40:09
Speaker 1: everything that has inputs into your situation right now? So
40:14
Speaker 1: it's kind of that, I guess the umbrella of what
40:18
Speaker 1: you're talking about with awareness. It's about self, it's about situation,
40:21
Speaker 1: it's about others, and it's about not being distracted by
40:27
Speaker 1: things that that aren't relevant right here, right now.
40:30
Speaker 2: It's that kind of feet on the grind thing.
40:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, so absolutely beautiful. Can we can you just? I mean,
40:39
Speaker 3: I hope you don't mind me asking you questions around that.
40:41
Speaker 3: But this is quite important. So if you're thinking about it,
40:44
Speaker 3: not just in a sense of acute acute events, but
40:48
Speaker 3: the daily grind. Now I don't know this, but I
40:51
Speaker 3: get to see many more individuals being affected by the
40:54
Speaker 3: daily grind than critical incidences, right, And so if you're
40:59
Speaker 3: thinking about the attention and where we cast that attention
41:03
Speaker 3: based on a state we nurture ourselves into or select
41:07
Speaker 3: ourselves into, you can have attention on the threat or
41:11
Speaker 3: something that has the potential of obliterating you. That's kind
41:14
Speaker 3: of one thing to mind, yes, But if you limit
41:17
Speaker 3: yourself to this only, the conclusion is very much in
41:19
Speaker 3: that interaction between you and the potential threat. Imagine yourself
41:24
Speaker 3: being able to find a discipline and the capability which
41:27
Speaker 3: all of us have to see a number of these
41:31
Speaker 3: touch points ahead to actually start marking away from this
41:34
Speaker 3: and not just see it as a giant boulder on
41:36
Speaker 3: your way. You know, the thing of look around, look
41:39
Speaker 3: on the lookover.
41:40
Speaker 1: That I like that look around, look on their lookover
41:44
Speaker 1: and interesting the other thing where I think it's really
41:47
Speaker 1: important for people. And I was delighted to see that
41:50
Speaker 1: in your book you talk about gremlin's gremlins in your head.
41:53
Speaker 1: We talk about gremlin and siege, right, And so the
41:57
Speaker 1: gremlin is the little voice in your head that that
42:00
Speaker 1: of doubt that you're not good enough all of this stuff,
42:03
Speaker 1: and the siege is your best self, right, So it's
42:07
Speaker 1: worries the flashlight of your attention place.
42:10
Speaker 2: And for a lot of people the flashlight is.
42:13
Speaker 1: Turned in their own heads, struggling in this constant struggle
42:18
Speaker 1: with their gremlin and wrestling with their thoughts, wrestling with
42:23
Speaker 1: their emotions, all of these things, and not having their
42:26
Speaker 1: attention on the right here, right now, and where I
42:31
Speaker 1: want to be and my values and all of that stuff.
42:34
Speaker 1: Because for me, attention drives everything in the brain. Right,
42:37
Speaker 1: your attentional control and that reticular activating system is going
42:42
Speaker 1: to put your focus somewhere and then emotions flow and
42:46
Speaker 1: thoughts and all this, and then you can end up
42:49
Speaker 1: just in this wrestle with your gremlin, all internal, with
42:54
Speaker 1: no actual attention on all the things that matter, such
43:00
Speaker 1: as the situation, yourself, other people, values, purpose, where you
43:06
Speaker 1: want to go all of this stuff.
43:08
Speaker 2: So that and I love that.
43:10
Speaker 1: I just wanted to bring up that you had at
43:12
Speaker 1: tension in there under awareness and then but I guess
43:16
Speaker 1: the big thing for our listeners is how can you
43:20
Speaker 1: tree in yourself to respond rather than react?
43:25
Speaker 2: Right?
43:26
Speaker 1: And we know the difference, but firstly start off with
43:30
Speaker 1: what is the difference between responding and reacting? And then
43:34
Speaker 1: are there a couple of tools that you can give
43:36
Speaker 1: people so that they can over time? Because this just
43:40
Speaker 1: isn't that. Here's a tool from doctor Allien Bone. Now
43:43
Speaker 1: it's fixed forever, but over time that process. Right, how
43:48
Speaker 1: do you tree in yourself through a process so that
43:51
Speaker 1: you can respond rather than react using those awareness tools.
43:58
Speaker 3: I'm scribbling notes because of quite love everything that you're saying.
44:01
Speaker 3: It's incredible. But the first piece, it's kind of in
44:05
Speaker 3: the it's in the the recipe is in the name
44:08
Speaker 3: of it, right, So how do you how do you
44:11
Speaker 3: condition yourself? How do you train yourself to respond rather
44:13
Speaker 3: than react? So The reason why we're focusing on responding
44:17
Speaker 3: rather than reacting is that response involves a degree of intentionality.
44:22
Speaker 3: You can't be resilient, can't grow, can't live by design
44:26
Speaker 3: unless you are intentional about where it is you're heading
44:29
Speaker 3: and what are you trying to achieve. When you're talking
44:32
Speaker 3: about attention and where your attention goes, that too, is
44:37
Speaker 3: about intentionality. You have countless opportunities every day of your
44:41
Speaker 3: life to be scattered by a thousand different trigger points
44:44
Speaker 3: available in your environment that tango dance to perfection with
44:47
Speaker 3: that gremlin on the insight, you know what I mean? Like, Yeah, Like,
44:53
Speaker 3: if you want to if you want to just have
44:55
Speaker 3: a really I don't know, entertaining life, all you need
45:00
Speaker 3: to do is just show up, gremlins and all, and
45:03
Speaker 3: watch the world trigger you. Yes, So it's kind of
45:10
Speaker 3: a little tricky, right, because it has to start. We
45:14
Speaker 3: have to start with the end in mind. Yes, so
45:18
Speaker 3: many extraordinary humans out there aiming to develop some sort
45:23
Speaker 3: of robust version of themselves. Any absence of context, you
45:28
Speaker 3: can't You can't just show up and be super trained
45:31
Speaker 3: and have done that. You can't do that in a bubble.
45:35
Speaker 3: So if we're coming back to my Grandma's quod probably
45:38
Speaker 3: which is existence is resistance. Can you build that stuff
45:43
Speaker 3: through life? Again, coming back to Franco, you know you
45:47
Speaker 3: do life by responding to life, which means you have
45:51
Speaker 3: to engage with challenges to condution that ability to have
45:56
Speaker 3: response rather than reaction. So the difference reaction is a
46:00
Speaker 3: you know, you effectively find yourself forced into a minimal
46:04
Speaker 3: range because you haven't given yourself any options. Response intentionality,
46:10
Speaker 3: which means you start with the end in mind. So
46:14
Speaker 3: the most important tool I think to build your capacity
46:19
Speaker 3: to be responsive rather than reactive is to be clear
46:23
Speaker 3: who it is that you want to be and how
46:24
Speaker 3: it is that you want to show up and as
46:27
Speaker 3: a consequence of that, to be very honest, to conduct
46:30
Speaker 3: an honest audit. It doesn't have to be with professionals.
46:33
Speaker 3: It can be with yourself of what it is that
46:35
Speaker 3: triggers you, what holds you back, what fuels you, and
46:39
Speaker 3: once you clear on that stuff to start going after it.
46:43
Speaker 3: There are no shortcuts with this, you know, they don't.
46:45
Speaker 3: These sorts of things don't happen in your own head.
46:48
Speaker 3: They have to happen in interaction with life. With the
46:50
Speaker 3: friction points in life start with the end in mind,
46:55
Speaker 3: conduct an honest audit of what fuels and what deplets you,
46:59
Speaker 3: and when you know it, don't tinker on a peripherace.
47:02
Speaker 3: Go after those things. Allow yourself to notice that for
47:06
Speaker 3: everything that triggers you, there are countless different responses that
47:10
Speaker 3: allow you to just be a If you want a
47:12
Speaker 3: passive observer of this gremlin, you don't have to engage
47:15
Speaker 3: yourself in the tangle dance. The trick, though, is that
47:19
Speaker 3: many of us are very much attached to the minor
47:22
Speaker 3: white noise of the daily grind. If we are to
47:26
Speaker 3: take that honest audit, we are going to recognize that
47:29
Speaker 3: we are very much attached to that melody, the minor
47:32
Speaker 3: drama melody. Do you know what I'm talking about?
47:34
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So I think the people.
47:37
Speaker 1: I love the concept of the white noise, right, the
47:40
Speaker 1: white noise of the daily grind.
47:42
Speaker 2: That because people just get sucked into it totally, of course.
47:46
Speaker 3: I mean it's very It can occupy you for a while, right, yeah.
47:52
Speaker 2: People spent years there, years, And I love the.
47:59
Speaker 1: Existence is distance and I mean your your your grandmother
48:03
Speaker 1: is a definitely a an.
48:06
Speaker 2: Incarnation of the Stoics. I think the Stoic philosophers. But
48:11
Speaker 2: the engage with challenges.
48:14
Speaker 1: For me, this is critical and I think, you know,
48:17
Speaker 1: if we if we broaden the lens just to talk
48:19
Speaker 1: about today, I think one of the worst things that
48:25
Speaker 1: has happened today is this expectation that kids in our
48:31
Speaker 1: youth are coming up and lots of people have, that
48:33
Speaker 1: life should be easy, and that life should be you know,
48:38
Speaker 1: kind of walk in the park, and that that stressors
48:41
Speaker 1: are things to be avoided. And you know, the first
48:45
Speaker 1: noble truth of Buddhism life is suffering duka, which actually
48:50
Speaker 1: literally translates as hard to do. And for me, a
48:54
Speaker 1: big step in all of this is understanding that life
48:59
Speaker 1: is fucking amazing, but it will also be hard, but
49:05
Speaker 1: that there are two sides of the coin. And you
49:08
Speaker 1: have to with the Stoics talked about the contest is
49:12
Speaker 1: upon us the Olympic Games of life, right, and if
49:17
Speaker 1: it's the Olympic Games, you've got to engage it. You're
49:19
Speaker 1: at the freaking Olympics. You've got to embrace challenges to
49:24
Speaker 1: test and develop your character.
49:26
Speaker 2: You know that for me is a.
49:29
Speaker 1: Psychological orientation that kind of drives everything else. Is this
49:36
Speaker 1: what is your automatic mindset to challenges that will and
49:42
Speaker 1: are inevitable. And the shit sandwiches from the universe, right,
49:47
Speaker 1: are they something that you want to shy away from
49:50
Speaker 1: and hide or are they too for you to use
49:54
Speaker 1: to fully engage with, to actually give yourself that mean?
49:59
Speaker 2: And it comes back to the meaning and purpose.
50:01
Speaker 3: Right, beautifully done. So I love this. The contest is
50:08
Speaker 3: upon us should be lettered, right, and so I think
50:12
Speaker 3: that's the absolutely beautiful. So if I walk my way
50:15
Speaker 3: back to the starting point, is the expectation that life
50:19
Speaker 3: is in some way going to have to be easy
50:20
Speaker 3: and stress also are to be avoided. I can't think
50:23
Speaker 3: of anything more frightening, seriously, but doesn't it, you know
50:31
Speaker 3: what I mean? So virtually every system we have in
50:35
Speaker 3: us that we recognize in the most rudimentary way is
50:39
Speaker 3: designed for this experience, do you know what I mean.
50:42
Speaker 3: I've got an epic ten year old next door on
50:45
Speaker 3: school holiday, and we were talking yesterday about him having overtrained,
50:50
Speaker 3: you know, and the physical pain that you have in
50:52
Speaker 3: your body when you have overtrained. And even here was
50:55
Speaker 3: observing that the human body is designed for this kind
50:57
Speaker 3: of stuff. Yeah, because you know what I mean? And
51:00
Speaker 3: so he was giving you a lecture on you know,
51:03
Speaker 3: how muscles get ripped and then they grow. I mean,
51:05
Speaker 3: everything about us is designed to seek this and I
51:09
Speaker 3: don't know who decided to give us this little recipe
51:11
Speaker 3: for life, but it's very wrong. It doesn't lead to
51:14
Speaker 3: anything worth living with, you know. So I absolutely love
51:19
Speaker 3: everything you had to say. And so it kind of
51:21
Speaker 3: comes down to this word that has been overused over
51:26
Speaker 3: the last little while too, mindset. And people do think
51:30
Speaker 3: that this superficial thing called mindset is somewhat innate. It's not. Again,
51:34
Speaker 3: it's tessted. It's developed in action. You don't just get
51:37
Speaker 3: born with it. There are conditions that allow you to
51:40
Speaker 3: find the nuances to it. Yes, some of us are
51:43
Speaker 3: more predisposed to look for that hard stuff as profile.
51:46
Speaker 3: I can say that there were probably personality predictors that
51:49
Speaker 3: allow us to confident with that. Yes, But seeing that
51:55
Speaker 3: resilience in life is very much a personal business. The
51:59
Speaker 3: only thing to be done is to just step out
52:01
Speaker 3: of that comfort zone, not get the edges of it
52:03
Speaker 3: over and over and over again, and before you know it,
52:07
Speaker 3: you develop an appetite for that stuff. Yeah you do.
52:11
Speaker 3: Have you ever found yourself in moments where you may
52:15
Speaker 3: have contemplated something as mildly overwhelming or slightly kind of
52:19
Speaker 3: on a frightening side of the continuum, and then you
52:22
Speaker 3: you get on with the journey of life. Anyway, look
52:25
Speaker 3: back and go, really that was the remblin, Are you
52:29
Speaker 3: kidding me? That tiny thing? How could I? Right? But
52:33
Speaker 3: you don't yet. So anyway, the job to be done
52:36
Speaker 3: is to build an appetite for that stuff.
52:38
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that, that building an appetite. And you
52:43
Speaker 1: know there's inferred in that is that you have to
52:46
Speaker 1: eat right, So you have to you have to get involved.
52:51
Speaker 1: And and this is you know, something I see in
52:54
Speaker 1: parenting that just drives me mad. But also it's frustrating,
52:59
Speaker 1: is that parents who are trying to bring their kids
53:03
Speaker 1: up in a world devoid of stress. And I'm just like,
53:06
Speaker 1: that is the.
53:07
Speaker 2: Wrong answer, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Right.
53:11
Speaker 1: You show me one highly resilient person who's had an
53:15
Speaker 1: easy life, you know, who hasn't been through adversity.
53:19
Speaker 2: You know, that's the I mean, the storics talked about
53:22
Speaker 2: this ad nauseum that you know, this is.
53:25
Speaker 1: The fire that forges us. So let's talk about something
53:31
Speaker 1: that's really important here. We mentioned it in your whole experience,
53:37
Speaker 1: and that's belonging, which is the next part of the book.
53:41
Speaker 1: How does that affect how we view deal with some
53:47
Speaker 1: recover from stress.
53:51
Speaker 3: Belonging, the feeling of being accepted again, words and all,
53:57
Speaker 3: was a critical predicta of our ability to hold us
54:00
Speaker 3: else together in this particular incident. Speaking of incidences itself,
54:03
Speaker 3: right as my bread and butter used to be organizational psychologist,
54:08
Speaker 3: so studying teams and what it is that make them,
54:11
Speaker 3: you know, traversity and non effectively, So the feeling that
54:16
Speaker 3: you are worthy, that you have something to contribute, and
54:20
Speaker 3: that someone has you back is the single most important
54:23
Speaker 3: predictor in challenging circumstances. Right, But oftentimes when we're thinking
54:27
Speaker 3: about belonging, we are thinking of a team or familial group,
54:30
Speaker 3: something along those lines. I've come to realize that over
54:33
Speaker 3: time that it's about kind of the spine of belief
54:36
Speaker 3: that holds you together, your own sense of purpose, the
54:40
Speaker 3: values that believes that, the views that contain you and
54:44
Speaker 3: give you a sense of drive. Really that's what belonging
54:47
Speaker 3: can be about. It's appreciating that the person standing there,
54:51
Speaker 3: holding the ground beneath your feet is worthy and By
54:55
Speaker 3: the way, I don't know if I fully agree with
54:59
Speaker 3: worthy as is. Yes, everyone is worthy as they are.
55:04
Speaker 3: But belonging for resilience is worthiness that develops in action,
55:09
Speaker 3: you know, is that feeling that anything that comes your
55:12
Speaker 3: way is something that you could at least engage with
55:15
Speaker 3: as opposed to avoid. That's that kind of belonging to
55:18
Speaker 3: self in a moment.
55:20
Speaker 1: And is there a component about belonging to a tribe
55:25
Speaker 1: that's important here?
55:27
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely, This little piece brings me back to some
55:32
Speaker 3: of the crisis that you were mentioning earlier with our
55:35
Speaker 3: veterans the world over. Actually belonging to a tribe, belonging
55:39
Speaker 3: to a broader, bigger purpose than yourself, that's incredibly galvanizing.
55:44
Speaker 3: It holds you because you know, it holds you on
55:46
Speaker 3: behalf of others, on behalf of something other than yourself.
55:50
Speaker 3: It's extraordinarily important. And perhaps one thing we all know
55:55
Speaker 3: we've observed that for the last little while is the
55:57
Speaker 3: erosion of community or you know, team. That stuff frightens
56:03
Speaker 3: me even more than your avoidance of stress.
56:06
Speaker 1: You know, Look, I tend to agree, and I'm I'm
56:11
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I'm a recovering Catholic right. I've been
56:15
Speaker 1: in recovery for about forty years, so I'm not religious
56:18
Speaker 1: at all, and there's not a religious bone in my body.
56:21
Speaker 2: But I do.
56:25
Speaker 1: Believe more and more that a lot of societal problems
56:30
Speaker 1: and stay them from the breakdown of religion and because
56:36
Speaker 1: and and not from religion per se, but that whole
56:42
Speaker 1: part of a group with shared values and and and
56:47
Speaker 1: when and and and holding to account of yourself and
56:50
Speaker 1: others to a certain set of standards. But you take
56:54
Speaker 1: that away and absent somebody then doing the work around
57:00
Speaker 1: what are my values, what is my purpose? We end
57:03
Speaker 1: up with an existential crisis that's there. So it's not
57:07
Speaker 1: that it's just religion per se, but it's the religion
57:10
Speaker 1: taken away and that vacuum around shared tribe, belongings, values,
57:17
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. I think that is a significant
57:22
Speaker 1: contributor to the mental health issues that we're experiencing today,
57:25
Speaker 1: and it plays into the whole resilience thing.
57:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. She had purpose
57:32
Speaker 3: shared values. I couldn't agree with you more. And there's
57:35
Speaker 3: a see this is there's a galvanizing thing inside of
57:38
Speaker 3: that too. I think one of the one of the
57:41
Speaker 3: little lines that I had in my book was it
57:44
Speaker 3: hit me. It's so simple, but you know, there's a
57:46
Speaker 3: significant difference between belonging to a coffee club again, or
57:51
Speaker 3: you know, a pig performing team for example, or a
57:55
Speaker 3: nurturing community