Latest / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast / JM3 Lacrosse Podcast - Season 7, Ep. 5 - Johns Hopkins Women's Head Coach Tim McCormack
Transcript
- Sara Munro: This is the JM three Lacrosse Podcast conversations about playing, coaching, and learning the game differently. From player development and skill acquisition to the ideas shaping the future of lacrosse. This is JM three. Jamie Munro: How's going, everybody? Welcome back to the JM3 lacrosse podcast. Very excited to welcome Tim McCormick to the show. Tim is the head women's coach at Johns Hopkins University. Tim, so awesome to have a chance to talk some lacrosse with man. Tim McCormack: Always the best. Thanks, Jamie. Thanks for having me on. love these conversations and excited to see where this one takes us. Jamie Munro: Same. for the record, everybody, Tim coached my daughter Emily for a few years at Arizona State. We got to know each other really well over the course of years and we share a lot of the same philosophies. And Tim, first of all, congratulations on an awesome twenty twenty six season. I know it didn't end how you wanted it, but it was a pretty big step in the right direction for the program. Tim McCormack: Absolutely it was. It was it was a lot of fun. We grew tremendously. It was the first class that we had taken for four full years that was able to accomplish that as seniors. So just so proud of that group. They they took a lot of pride and ownership in in Blue Jay Lacrosse and in what we're building and obviously to to go out and and have some success with it. As you said, listen, only one team it ends the the right way for, but We made some major strides. We are we are really proud of of what we've accomplished and excited for for another opportunity to get better, which we've been taking advantage of all all fall. Jamie Munro: Love it. one of the things I love watching is Hopkins Women's LaCrosse offense. how would you describe your offense? Tim McCormack: Well, I mean, you gotta look at the principles to start. You can't you know, you can't go anywhere without that in mind. So, you know, I I think when you when you look at what we're doing and and how we're doing it, it it's really down to a few simple things. We're we're we've gotta have great spacing in what we're doing. you know, we've we've gotta work together to try to generate high quality shots. we gotta be unpredictable, we gotta control defenders and influence defenders. and create advantages together. So, you know, I I think when when you look at what we're doing, it boils down to those few things. just w and then going out and and trying to get them over and over and over again. I you know, we're more of a volume team than we are a timing team. We we we celebrate moments such as getting open cutters you know and and celebrate moments when we get a chance to work together. There's not one person who's gonna necessarily steal the show. We're a full unit and we work as one and it's a lot of fun to play in too. Jamie Munro: What do you mean when you say you're a volume team? Tim McCormack: So for us, it's not about making the the feed at the perfect time. we wanna just get as many good chances as we can. So, you know, if we have open cutters that get through but don't get it, that's that's something to celebrate. It's something to be excited about. you know, and trying to generate those high quality shots, we wanna try to go out and and get as many of those as we can, you know, and do it in in these ways and make sure that we control and dictate the the tempo of the game, whether we want it sped up or we want it slowed down. And you know, so I I think it's all about it's all about trying to go get volume. You know, go get as many open cuts as you can, go get as many two defenders to play one as you can get. just go after that at all costs. And, you know, if you play those play those numbers out over the course of time, you're you're gonna have some success. Jamie Munro: All right, so for the listeners, in Tim's offense, part of the volume is all of the two-man and three-man actions they have going on simultaneously, ball side and backside. and I guess I would say it probably triggers is probably one of your principles. Like running actions is probably one of the principles. That's how you're kind of creating advantages. Can you talk a little bit about why it's not a bad thing to to have wide open people that Aren't necessarily found in why you just keep hammering this concept of creating advantages. Tim McCormack: Yeah, I I mean, first of all, absolutely right. You know, we do go create our advantages through two and three man action. you know, and bringing two defenders to the ball, but making them communicate, you know, and making them communicate effectively over the course of, you know, a minute if a possession lasts that long. It's very hard to do. It's very hard Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: Eventually someone's gonna break down or there's gonna be some sort of breakdown that we could take capitalize on and take advantage of. and we're just trying to keep going after that. As far as, you know, why? you know, because rather than waiting for one specific moment in time, why not have the opportunity to just have it come sporadically? Listen, the other thing is you're you might run into the other side here and there. That that's a that's a product of a little bit of what we're doing, you know, and there's gotta be There's gotta be cohesion and and and fluency built in and to what we're doing. So we're we're reading both sides and we're kinda on the same page. But for me, rather than waiting for the perfect time, I I'd rather just let it occur naturally. Jamie Munro: it reminds me of a really cool quote from Bobby Knight. Back in the nineties, I used to spend a lot of time studying basketball in the in the legendary coach Knight from Indiana basketball. And he always said that in a motion offense, which is more like a principles based offense, the ball finds the action. Whereas in a set play offense, the action finds the ball. And that's kind of what you're talking about. Like the set play, it's really important that you have this perfect timing because we know the cut in the pick and the slip and everything's gonna happen at this time. The ball has to be here. but in your offense, you never you never really know when people are gonna be open because they get open based on how the defense plays it. And then it's up to the ball side to figure out how to get the ball to the action. be able to get the ball to a feeder where somebody can have an approach or have some space or some time to be able to actually feed it, right? Tim McCormack: That's exactly it. That's exactly it. I love that quote by the way. that's a great Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: one. and it is. Listen, we're we're not you know, we're not playing football out here. we're more of a, you know, basketball type of team. We're more of a soccer type of of sport, I I think, and where there's some more fluidity and and more interaction. you know, football's you're gonna go out and you gotta know the routes and you gotta be very specific about the timing of things and It's a static game. It all starts off of a a a snap, you know, but but Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: that's not that's not what we're doing. You know, we're we're out here and everything's alive and it's an invasion sport and we're it's constantly interacting, it's constantly engaging and yeah, so for those reasons I I couldn't agree with that quote more. I think that that that's the key right there. Just go get as many actions as you can. in as little time, they're gonna create the advantage for you ninety percent of the time. and then you just gotta capitalize on those moments. If you don't squeeze the ball, get another one. Get it, you know, swing it, get it, continue to work the print, space yourself back out and go after it again. Jamie Munro: I think that the idea of creating advantages is oftentimes viewed in a very narrow way. People think of creating an advantage with a one-on-one dodge. And a lot of times it's kind of like a long dodge, and it's the fastest girl out there that can just blow by somebody. And it's always great to have girls that can do that. But rattle off all the different ways that you can think of in like thirty seconds of different advantages that could be created in different ways. Tim McCormack: Well, I mean, you gotta look we'll go to the triggers, up pick, down pick, twist pick, re pick, Spain, Cali action is an action we have, Euro action is an action we have. By the way, I'm rattling this stuff off and no one probably has any idea what I'm talking about, but Jamie Munro: Total. Tim McCormack: but that goes for on ball and off ball. you know, so those are all different two and three man actions that that that we could begin you know, anything with and trigger with and allow the team to to play out of it. You know, so that that's probably five or six right there out of maybe ten. And and they all know exactly what those are and how to get into those and and typically what the coverage solutions are to any different defense that we're gonna see. because they've played against it, they've seen it, they felt it, they've read it. And and they know how to manipulate, exploit it, and and influence. You know, I I can't stress enough, you know, control and influence. So if you're if you're actually making stuff happen on the field, let's just use a down pick. you get the ball down at the elbow and you're you're waiting for your picker to come and you can actually make your defender switch if you want them to switch, and you can actually make them stay on you if you want them to stay on you. What an advantage we have. You know, because that's that's giving us the the the keys to then potentially the next read. so yeah, I mean th those are a few of them. and it's fun, it's engaging, you're constantly moving, you're constantly communicating. you know, it's really not a moment of silence when you're playing this way because you gotta if you're volume team and you're getting after all those actions, you're gonna hear them frequently. So it's engaging for everybody out there as well. Jamie Munro: What's so cool about this type of offense is that while you could call something from the sideline, my question would be, how often are the girls just making the calls of running these two player and three player actions on their own to just communicate them when they decide they want to? Tim McCormack: Yeah, that that was the biggest the biggest moment to date. This was back with Emily on the team at Arizona State, where we went fully, fully to them making the calls. and we felt like we provided them the right environments and practice to to know probably better than we did, to be honest with you, at that point in time, what what the right you know, trigger or action was for any specific team at any specific moment. And we gave them we gave them the keys to the boss on that. And I haven't looked back since. So, you know, it it is ninety-eight percent them and maybe two percent here or there. If they're just maybe they're just missing something. We see it, we've reviewed Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Tim McCormack: it on the sideline film and we're like, hey, listen, I think we might be able to to to go after a Euro action here. Let let's let's give it a test. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: or really you know what? Really the times that we give it to them is when we feel like it's becoming a bit predictable. That that's Jamie Munro: Yes. Tim McCormack: that's the time when it's like downpick after downpick after downpick. It's kind of like, okay, let's, you know, let's get after something else Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: so yeah, but but 98% of the time it's it's on them. Jamie Munro: Yeah. And it's it's so cool because like every offense that everybody runs is usually you know built on some principles that it should work based on the coverage, but the difference is is the unpredictability and the control that the athletes have allows you to create amazing movement. But correct me if I'm wrong, the the reason why it works is because of the coverage solution. Tim McCormack: A hundred percent. A hundred. Jamie Munro: Can you explain what a covered solution is to everybody? Tim McCormack: Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean you got there's there's a few ways. Let let's discuss the coverage solutions in in a two-man game. We'll keep it really simple. Okay, so let's go through three different options that the defense has, three different coverages they have to guard that two man game. They Jamie Munro: on like a pass down pick down. Tim McCormack: on a pass down pick down. So you got the top girl, throws it down to the elbow, now there's a pick down at the elbow. They've got a switch. They've could stay and and and have the defender keep the matchup. And let's just say a jump double. Maybe we'll just go with those three simple, simple coverages. so you know, for each one of those, the the offense has to know and feel really or influence them into what the next read is going to be. So for example, if a team is gonna switch it, we've got to be ready to slip to slip that. If a team's gonna try to stay. The coverage solution would be to stick the pick, stay in there and and set a nice pick for them and and let them bring bring the defender over. If they're gonna jump double it, you you better have two or three options to get that ball to that roller, whether you throw it across the field to a to a potential nations, or, you know, I've I really like the behind the back there. I like you know, if it's an underneath move and they jump it, I like a backhand back in. but you you need to get that, you know, so those are just a couple of really basic options of some solutions to different coverages. Jamie Munro: Yeah, so it's so key for everyone to understand that the pick doesn't create the advantage. The pick makes the defense execute a coverage. And from there, the the offense has to recognize the coverage. There's a great quote that I heard recently that Michael Jordan said, which is the defense is always wrong. And what he's Tim McCormack: Yeah. Jamie Munro: basically saying is there is a solution for every coverage. And obviously, like, you know, Michael Jordan's the greatest player of all time. And it's kind of a funny quote. But but there's some truth to it because if you are attuned to the coverage, then you'll have a really good chance of creating that advantage. and the thing is though, most players are not, and they literally just run really fast and then they switch, they run right into a switch. And if they're bringing somebody over, they get pushed over the pick and they miss it and they run into the other side. And if there's a double, maybe they like run into the double and they don't really see it or the picker doesn't get out of there. So it's like an easy double with the picker not being open. how do you how do you work on that? How do you work on these coverage solutions for your team? And do these coverage solutions kind of universally work across all the triggers? Tim McCormack: Yeah, y absolutely. I mean every every trigger, every different trigger that you use is there's a coverage at hand. whether you're doing, you know, a ram screen, or you know, you're doing just a simple down pick, right? The the the defense is gonna do something there. So no doubt that that you're that that you're gonna be dealt with some sort of solution to to to provide. you know, so I think just some of the ways that we do it is through through small just little small side of games, variety of those. I mean, it's it's really endless. I you you can't you can't even begin to scratch the surface if if we even tried here to of like how how much we're doing, how much we're changing, what different scoring systems there are. I mean, we've talked about this on here before. what what different space we're utilizing on the field. So it's just it's it's a combination of all those things. But at the end of the day, it's really about kind of breaking breaking down into these moments and giving and giving some giving keeping creating some games that that are very engaging and constraining each environment according to to what we want pulled out. And if we really want to amplify the switching as the coverage solution, maybe we'll tell the D to switch everything. Maybe we'll tell the offense to tell the defense what to do. you know, they I mean d there's just so many different ways that you can go at this. May maybe if we want to kind of create attunement from a variety of coverage solutions, we'll tell if there's three defenders out on the field, we'll tell each one of them a different thing. If you're the pick defender, you're switching. If you're the pick defender, you're staying. If you're the pick defender, you're jump doubling. So now you've kind of got a variety. I would love an offensive player to become attuned to like, that's the jump doubler. Yeah, you know, I listen, is that gaming the the the the system a little bit? Sure, but you know what? You're attuned, you know what's happening. I would love that. It is. It is right, that's right. You you're you're aware. You're aware of what's gonna happen Jamie Munro: I mean that's kind of what reading a coverage is. It's gaming the system. Yeah. One hundred percent. Tim McCormack: and you're you're you're fully engaged and you you figured out that that girl's role is a jump double. that's a that's a home run. You know? you know, so we've been we've been doing a lot of stuff like that. We've been doing a lot of different unique ones with with some like different penny things, where we'll give like a bright penny on defense and we'll say, you know, you gotta make the bright penny girl fight over a pick. So that there's, you know, incredible attunement to that individual. Okay, this is Jamie Munro: Of that. Tim McCormack: the kid. Yeah, or or put in an off ball situation, right? like a a RAM, right? We call a euro. But and now whoever gets the green penny in that in that ram, they gotta exit and go to the off ball side. So there's just this like, did she switch? Did she say, okay, we're just attuning to that split second, the coverage in that split second, and then and then making reads a you know according to that, or making them do what we want them. Jamie Munro: for the sake of the listeners, in this in in two-man game, the the advantages you can create, and it's kind of obvious, if they stay, oftentimes the dodger can score by bringing their defender over the top, or if they're really overplaying by rejecting. And when they switch, oftentimes it's the picker that is gonna get open that you might feed on a pick and roll, you might throw it to somebody else for a nations. and the double obviously is like a really aggressive switch where they're both on you, the picker's open, and you might be able to throw it to her yourself, or you might throw it to somebody else that can throw it to her on like a nations type of a look. but the reason why I wanted to bring this up is because those three coverages are consistent with every every picking action on ball and off ball. and that's what's kind of cool about it. I mean, at the end of the day, like all of the up picks and down picks and elbow picks. And seals and everything you're doing off ball is really identical from a from a reads perspective, from a covered solution perspective. So it's even though you can run pit lots of picks at the same time and you can run on ball and off-ball, and you've got different names for the different combinations of picks that you're doing. in the end, it just really comes down to recognizing is this girl going over or under? That's pretty much it. and it It's easier said than done, though. it it it's in the heat of the moment. It's it's it's really hard for a really athletic player, you know, to like slow down and read it. But this comes back to the principles, right? And what I try to talk about, and we we've is is is for athletes to have an intentionality around trying to actually create an advantage in a two-man game rather than just trying to beat their girl one-on-one. Can you talk a little bit about that concept? Tim McCormack: Yeah, I mean that lends itself to that controlling and influencing defenders. You know, we don't want to have the deep we don't want to give the defense the chance to dictate. So, you know, if we come at a pick in one speed at one pace, they're they're gonna make the read that they wanna make. If we come very simply, if we come at the pick and we change that pace up and we hesitate and we jab and we rocker before it. or we throw a punch move in before it, or we split away from the pick first and then come back towards it. These are just all ways to to create variability, create unpredictability, to control the defender that's on you, but also the pick defender. You know, but but I agree. I I mean, I think that these are the most crucial things. to go out and just think that we're gonna go play two man game, three man game and go sprinting around the field running off of picks and and we're gonna go do this thing, it's it you know, you're gonna be running into help, you're gonna find yourself running into the other side for anyone that's tried that and been frustrated. Jamie Munro: Yes. Tim McCormack: I'm trying this two man game. I'm trying this three man game stuff. I I I don't, it's no good. Jamie Munro: It doesn't work. Tim McCormack: Right, it doesn't work, it's not working, no good. Odds are you're your your players are sprinting around and they have no feel for what's actually occurring on the field. so you know, the advice would be try to f create some environments where you slow the entire thing down, you tell your players, value the ball, have ha have the tempo control, but we're just gonna try to keep it away from from that team from you know if it's two on two, we're just gonna try to keep it away from them for a minute. And in that minute you're going as slow as you can go, with drifts, drags, hesitations, jabs, punch moves, everything, rocker steps while the picker comes and then just have them feel it, feel out what's occurring on the field. Let them Let you could amplify that. Let them have to say what happened. So it as they switch, they're saying switch. As they, stay, they're saying they stayed. They stayed. Just, you know, just different tools and ways to you could have the defense change it up. Say D change it up, everyone. Don't be stubborn, right? We wanna kinda again, I think amplifying things, that's what constraints are, right? Really, I mean Jamie Munro: Yes. Tim McCormack: like it's it's amplifying different reads and and and providing opportunities that that make it glaring. for your offense and ball handlers and pickers to to be able to then go and execute. Jamie Munro: Tim, you're pretty into analytics, right? Tim McCormack: Yeah. Jamie Munro: Why is two-man game from an analytics perspective and from an offensive perspective? Why is it effective? Why is it why do you do it more than just go one on one? Even though I want to just footnote and say every time you're playing two-man game, you are dodging one on one, but you're dodging in the context of a pick or a couple of picks or whatever. But can you talk a little bit about from an analytics perspective? Tim McCormack: I can, yeah. I I don't I will be very honest with you and I don't want to pretend to have those numbers. I and the only reason we don't have those numbers personally is because we don't dodge I wouldn't be able to measure it in practice. So I can't justify the one on one dodging, but but what I what I can tell you is that the leverage that you have in a two man is the fact that you are not only doing it as an individual like you are in a one on one. But you're making there's another factor at play, which is making the defense communicate effectively. So if it's one on one dodge and I'm coming at somebody, it's it's me versus them, and there's no other way to shake that. Once you bring another person into that mix, and I'm still, by the way, still dodging, still controlling, still getting to trying to get to the net, the odds become much greater. And and this is where I can't Tell I've got the exact number, but the odds become much greater because you got two chances. You can either beat them, your picker can help you beat them, it's probably three chances, or the defenders can miscommunicate. So, you know, when you just play the simple statistics is I'll take three chances for an advantage over just a one any day. I mean, if you want to boil it down to that. Jamie Munro: Totally. And what happens if one player switches and one player stays? Tim McCormack: Explain what you're saying. I give me give me an example. Jamie Munro: If one player switches and one player stays, it's two on one. It's two on one. Tim McCormack: One player switches and one player stays. We got them. They miscommunication. We're happens all the time, on ball and off ball. We're walking right into the middle. Jamie Munro: All more. Tim McCormack: Yep. I mean, the the amount I say that all the time. when great high school players come here and they're in the first phases of learning how to slow down, I I tell them this is gonna be this is gonna be more fun and probably easier than it's ever been for you. Jamie Munro: Yes. Tim McCormack: Because because you have those three ways to do it. And I the phrasing I use is you'll be walking in. You will literally be walking in. And we've watched it Jamie Munro: Yeah. Totally. Tim McCormack: happen for a long time. It's and and it's fun to do. Jamie Munro: It is. From an analytics perspective on the men's side, Joe Keegan, who does a lot of work with the PLL, he's got some interesting stats from men's lacrosse. But here's a couple. One is that this is these stats are from pro lacrosse from a few years back, there are higher scoring percentages from two-man game than from isolation because there are higher sticks to the inside percentages on shots in two-man game and sticks to the inside score at a higher rate than sticks to the outside. And there are also more off-ball shots as a result of two-man game and off-ball shots. Will score at a higher rate than dodging shots. and I think those are interesting stats. But the other thing that's really interesting is the concept of addition by subtraction. Where basically if you dodge one-on-one and you put six, six diff girls on the other elbow and they slide, it's five guarding six over there. It's like a bee's nest of it's a mess. And if you go If you go two man game and there's five girls over there and they slide, it's four guarding five. It's a little bit better. But when all of a sudden you got three lefties on your side and you're running actions and they have to slide, it's three guarding four. And if you've got an ex-girl that's occupying somehow and cycling back there, all of a sudden they're sliding from the other side and it might be leaving two guarding three. and and all of a sudden, you know, you've got some huge advantages. And and I just wanted the listeners to be able to kind of understand why. D do you feel like this is the direction the game is gonna go? Tim McCormack: Yeah, I mean, y you know, obviously my lens is probably a a little biased on on this whole thing, but Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: but if if if I'm gonna be honest with you, I yeah, I do. I you know, we're seeing this I I we had our we had our full banquet today for last year's team and and I said to them to everybody at that, we're seeing more and more teams at the club level doing this stuff. We're seeing more and more teams at the high school level doing this stuff. you know, trying to create advantages in this way. And so I I I think there's some natural progression to you know getting in this direction and I think it's currently unfolding and it's pretty cool to see and and and there are really, really good teams out there making you know, beating other teams that might be you know a little bit highly rated by doing some of this stuff. You know, it's Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: showing up and playing by principles and having great spacing and working two and three man games, communicating. you know, so yeah, I I think it is, for sure, no no doubt about it. Jamie Munro: I t I totally agree. You you're seeing it over the over the last number of years and and the teams that are doing it are winning. Also, sometimes coaches are like, Well, I I don't wanna bring a double to the ball. You know. But that that's exactly what you would actually like to do. Tim McCormack: Yeah I was just gonna say that's there's probably nothing there's nothing better that you can do than that, right? Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: But the whole the whole design typically the whole Jamie Munro: That's the whole point. Tim McCormack: you're right. The whole your design of your one on one dodge is if you're not gonna get to the goal, it's at least to draw us two. So why not just expedite that a little bit? And then let's also add, let's expedite it and be closer to the net. We don't need to to do Jamie Munro: And have better spacing because you're making them do it outside the eight instead of getting doubled at you know mock speed in you know i in the middle of the eight. Yeah. Tim McCormack: Right. A hundred percent. Yep. Absolutely. I I agree. I agree. I'll Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: bring that double all day. Jamie Munro: Yeah, it's pretty fun. also, don't you think that your system lends itself really well to being able to play zone offense as well? And can you explain why? Tim McCormack: a hundred percent. Yeah. well, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, zone's really just about manipulating and exploiting space. So everything that we're talking about, you know, remains the same. you're trying to you're trying to find volume cutting opportunities, you're trying to control and influence defenders, you're trying to find gaps to to get the ball back to. So at the end of the day it all stays the same, the principles remain the Jamie Munro: Okay. Tim McCormack: same. And the recognition, I mean coverage solutions, right? So if all of a sudden you got a low pipe girl and you realize that you got her at the elbow, where should you throw the ball? Yeah, down to the low spot. but if you don't have those coverage solutions in mind and you don't manipulate the space or exploit it and you don't realize that's the low girl, you're gonna miss that a lot. so, you know, I think in in the way that we're practicing and the way that you're training, you're you're also gaining how to how to get these advantages versus the zone versus the man versus the high pressure, the low pressure, the the stag or the drop defense that that we whatever it is, right? I mean, it's all there. So no no doubt about it. first zones, we'll we'll we'll keep the we'll continue to to to run picks. We'll we'll get them right in between gaps, move the ball in the middle there. and then find really, really nice space for nations to kick it back in there. or or maybe we occupy or tie up the rover. So we've got now maybe some ball side actions on the other side after a swing. so yeah, w I mean without a doubt, it's it's it's everything. It's it should basically stay exactly the same. The principles should remain the same. And you should attack it in that way. Continue at your volume and be patient and and go in and and get it done. Jamie Munro: A couple of examples for people when you think of zone. They're they're sitting in zones. They're trying to snap back. It's the equivalent of a switch. So the same issue that a player would have running full speed off of a pick into a switch is the same issue that Dodgers have in a zone when they just run really fast from, you know, the elbow girl to the top girl and they're just running into the next girl. Whereas there is a gap there. And this is the exact same coverage solution in a zone where you're going to. sit in the pocket and try to engage two defenders. your girl, you realize she's switching, the other girl's stepping up. Don't keep running into the switch. You're that's essentially like switching for them. It's the same thing in zone if you run from one zone to the next, but if you sit in the middle of that gap and you make them both play you, now you've got two on you. And so it's amazing how it lends itself to zone. And and then these high pressure zones, you know, where they're really pressuring you. Now it's kind of like they're going over picks because they're trying to get ball pressure. Right. And so now you have to figure out how to, you know, if you if you set a pick for that, that girl who's being pressured, you know, maybe she rejects it. Maybe she can bring her girl over it. Maybe she can roll back late and scrape her off on going back the other way. But the idea is sometimes you'll have these two on one picks against zones that you can attack exactly the same way you might against high pressure man-to-man defenses and it really becomes very, very similar. how about all of the passing that occurs in your man-to-man offense with all the throwbacks? How does that blend itself to Zone? Tim McCormack: Yeah, I mean that that's that carries right over, right? Because when you're when you're getting the ball down low, when you're changing the point of attack and you're not keeping it in one spot the entire time, when that gets into zone, you what you find yourself doing is just dragging zone defenders as far as they can go in their zone and getting them to uncomfy spots. Once you throw that thing back and they have to snap back, maybe that player is open, you know, on a give and go. Maybe we get it down you know, to the third girl down in the low spot and then she's open. but yeah, I mean, it it's it's constant ball movement. you know, I think the variability, the unpredictability there is crucial. And and you wanna engage them all. You know, you don't wanna go and play against a zone and engage just the top girl and the elbow girl and let the lows just kind of sit still. So if if you could get the ball to different spots, if you could get the ball through X, if you can swing it across the top. And have both sides engaged. I mean, that that's a big piece of it too, right? Don't let it sit on one side. So you got your throwback action that maybe you run on on your righty side for call it, you know, eight seconds, seven seconds. You want to see what can come about. You don't have that. You transfer it through X, you get it up. Now you have your low lefty, maybe engage the low girl and look for a little step off look, or you could push it forward and go into like an up pick nations over on the lefty side. and then get it back to the righties if it's not there. All while we're doing all this stuff, remember there's act there's active participation on the backside too. So, you know, then you're just reading. If it's a backer zone and or rover zone and you got that rover tied up on the ball side, you know, and and you go from the top girl, pass it down to the low girl, you might have a great lane through to an open cutter on on the opposite side. With a great feeding angle too, by the way. So yeah, it it's it mean it it's literally like a direct carryover. and it Jamie Munro: It doesn't change that much, does it? Tim McCormack: it really doesn't change that much at all. It really doesn't change. Jamie Munro: The reads are a little different because because it's zone and there it's more of a switch. But but like we said, like it it against the high pressure, it's it's a lot like playing against man to man. They're playing you. Tim McCormack: Yeah. Jamie Munro: what about what about do you run triggers? the same the same triggers or different triggers in man and zone? Tim McCormack: Yeah, we I mean a little bit. You know, we're not gonna run the exact there's there's certain triggers that just won't impact that coverage at all. you know Jamie Munro: Like what? Tim McCormack: well we have this little action the specific one I'm referring to it's called a Cali action that we run where kind of it's just like a a a top low exchange. You know, you you can run it, but a lot of the times, you know, they're just gonna kind of Jamie Munro: You might get it with the backer though. Tim McCormack: you might you you do get the attention of the backer. You do get the attention of the backer in that one. Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Tim McCormack: but but really every other trigger, other you know, I I go limited on that one, but every other trigger Jamie Munro: Yeah. Tim McCormack: is very much being utilized. you know, Ram the Ram one, for example, you're you know, if you slip that, you're gonna get the backer for sure. So Jamie Munro: Mm-hmm. Tim McCormack: great one to use the obviously the up picks and the down picks. Great. you know, you could get some some three man spaying stuff with and and and maybe get attention of the backer and free up a open cut on the off ball side. or maybe the the backer goes down to the ball and that that third girl's open. So yeah, no doubt. I mean the triggers will will continue. They'll will continue to be, you know, vary them up and go after them. And then maybe one feels better against a certain zone and you can go after it a few times, you know, try to exhaust the thing if you can. Jamie Munro: I've been thinking a lot about picking against zone. There was a time when I was like, well, if you can get two on you without a pick, because you carry it from one to the one gap to the other, you step in the gap and you can get two on you. You know, you don't really need a pick to get two on you. Right. but then when I was thinking about it and watching some of the high pressure zones, like Colorado zone was a good example of last year. I started realizing that like the the picking frees up hands. And if they go under it, then you can feed all day, which means they can't let you because you can't put you if they go under a pick and you can feed, it's a real problem for the zone, right? Like you can't give people their hands and their eyes. So which means you have to go over, which means that then it extends them out farther, and you can still attack a two-on-one pick, like we talked about. If it's a two-on-one pick. And if it's a two on two pick, you've extended them out and now you just move it and you're gonna have a two-on-one pick somewhere else, right? and so I messed around with that a lot recently, but how much do you think of Tim McCormack: Yeah, I mean, I feel like even getting that pick in between the zone spots, high or low pressure, it just creates a lot of tension for the defense because you get a you get really worried about that player. So let let's give an example where you have the elbow and the low we pick between the elbow and the top spot on a like a down pick, and we're kind of sitting right in there gap. You stand there and I carry from elbow up and they're being really aggressive and pushing out on me. I mean, that can lend itself really nicely, very simply, right? If you accept and embrace that pressure and invite it, you throw that thing across, we might have a great nations look right back into the green. If the the girl who was in that original pick spot, maybe we can just dump it over that that double you know when you get them pinched there. and then play out of you know you got numbers there now because you have the two on one extended but but i just think picking right in the middle of those zones puts a ton of tension you could start to like like you're saying you could start to pick to the to the outside of it too you know you could pick like right at the edge and that's a that's a funny spot you know if you pick it extends that gap right yeah you so you Jamie Munro: It is 'cause it extends the gap. Yeah. Yeah. Tim McCormack: can kind of pinch them in there and maybe more of like a seal kind of almost even where you just pinching them down and pinching them down and cre again it's all about just trying to create that tension in in in the zone. If if you think about that, like imagine that the zones has like a rope attached to every one. They want to keep that rope nice and slack. And if they start pulling on it because they're getting too spread apart, you know, that that's where you could exploit them. You know, so we're always trying to find ways to get to that tension. I've I've found that the picking game has has done that. Jamie Munro: Yeah, it extends the gaps, like that rope. I mean, they would like to have a even even distance between each player if they could, but Tim McCormack: Right. Jamie Munro: when the zone gets distorted, it's two players are like there's a huge gap somewhere because two players are close together. And what picks do is they Tim McCormack: That's exactly right. Yeah. Jamie Munro: they basically, you know, if you play a pick two on one, then you should be able to attack it. And if they want to bring two on two, then all of a sudden that means there's big gaps elsewhere that you can move the ball into. Tim McCormack: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Jamie Munro: And it it just opens up opportunities for for girls just to slash right through those gaps too. I mean, you're not gonna the picks are gonna be setting up dodges oftentimes in zone. Tim McCormack: That's the thing. That's exactly the thing. That's what we've exactly what we found. It's Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Tim McCormack: r to be very honest with you, it's rarely the nations. It it the the that that Jamie Munro: Yeah. I agree. Tim McCormack: picker, that the cutting picker post pick is typically just drawing somebody that's very valuable in the defense away from the the main job to then find the right person. That's I I agree. Jamie Munro: All right, so switching gears, how do you recruit for this? What are you looking for when you're looking for players and you think about the offense that you play? Tim McCormack: Well, I mean, for me, I I I really think I am looking for skillful players, people who I I really try to hone in on pace control. I will say that the the biggest struggles that I've had and and by the way, when I'm recruiting, I'm trying this to do this for both ends of the spectrum. Jamie Munro: Yeah, totally. We're talking about offense here, but yes, that it's both multiple. Yeah. Tim McCormack: Right. I want what's b yeah, I want what's best for the athlete too. So the the ones that have had the toughest time are the ones that have played in, you know, very, very traditionally, upright, sprint heavy, with a lack of awareness of what's going on in the field. Maybe they get great, you know, maybe they are able to to beat people and maybe they're, you know, good at getting downhill. but For what we're doing, I I'm really trying to find the people that are that are have that that tempo control can really, you know, they're the dial. They're the ones on offense that if they want to speed it up because they feel like something's there, or they push a fast break or something like that, they can do that. But if if they wanna slow it down, they can kind of like dial that back and and fully have the the tempo of the game. And and and it might not be necessarily always the the same person that everybody else is gonna to look at. but I sense that that they have that tempo control. That would be one. And what I mean by s by when I say skillful is people who are making making reads. People who are, you know, aren't out there just kind of like rent, you know, trying to get their own or, you know, putting their head down and trying to run through three people. you know, I'll tell you what, you wanna get an ode on our paper, Hunt for a give and go. That's a really easy way to to get a a quick note for us just because that shows some savvy. It shows some some, you know that there's something there. you actually understand that, I threw it. My defender's not now looking. I'm gonna try to get it. I it's almost a guarantee that we're gonna look at that. So though, I mean, those are a few of the things. For I mean, listen, if a team's doing what we're doing and creating advantages in the way that we are, that I mean, that makes it easy. You know, if if people come to our prospect days and we get a chance to work with them and do some of this, we do this for six hours on our prospect days sometimes. We reads Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Tim McCormack: are nonstop and we play a lot, we make a ton of decisions and a ton of reads. And I'm looking for aptitude. I want to see. You know, girls who are able to implement by the end of the day, be able to implement this stuff, influence defenders, control them, have great spacing, be unpredictable, work together to generate, good open cutting chances for their teammates, be unselfish, work in some triggers. We go through all the triggers that our prospect is. you know, so th those are the things, you know, and and we're just constantly, constantly looking for that. Jamie Munro: You you use the word skill and skillful and and how do you even define skill? Tim McCormack: I I mean, you know, for me for me it comes down to to the reads. It really comes down to to the reads and you know Jamie Munro: In other words, the skill and the IQ are roped in together. Tim McCormack: Hundred percent. When I'm saying skill, listen, like that's a great point. When I you know, I use that term so often now that it's it i in my head that's what it is. You might be thinking when I'm saying skill, you know, people might be thinking like someone that can behind the back or someone that can throw this huge fake or no, I absolutely like it's it's not it's not that. What what we're talking about when we just find skill is those who influence the game and and those who make the right reads at the right times. That's a skillful player in my mind. Now listen, if you can pump your way through a gap, if if you can have some great deception, obviously deception is such a big piece to the puzzle, right? I mean, so if I see you coming into a two man game and and you're able to throw somebody off kilter because you're looking one way and then you split and get down the other way. Th these are things that you know, we're looking for. That's what I kinda look at when I think about a skillful player. Jamie Munro: Yeah, totally. from the deception perspective, it's one of the more interesting topics. I feel like deception in general is kind of viewed as like the cherry on top. Let's let's work on all these things and let's like, hey, let's do a little deception. when really like the entire game is the combination of, like you said, the reads and the setup. And the setup is your deception. You see an opportunity. That's the read. You see space, you see a slider, you see a switch happening, or somebody going over. And then the setup is is basically done through your deception, through looking one way and going the other, through faking a pass, through selling that I'm going to dig somebody in to buy time or to use a Hesi or a rocker. and it's really interesting. How how would you suggest that athletes out there get better at reads Tim McCormack: Yeah, yeah. Jamie Munro: and setup or or like you said, reads and deception. Tim McCormack: Yeah, well, I mean, listen, let's start with the fact that it's gonna take it's gonna take a few bodies on field. You can't do this stuff with a pile of cones and a net. Right? You need to you you right, you need to have people out there. So first things first, get your siblings, your parents, your friends, and get them out there with you. That's just that's the starting point. once you have them, okay, let's go through a bunch of scenarios. Let's say you've got One other buddy. Well, let's find a tool in which we can use as maybe a picker. So I'll put a chair there, or I'll put a garbage pill, or I'll put one of those tackle dummies. And we can start to see how we can throw, and there's no better feedback than just asking the person directly. You know, so how can I throw my partner off? And get them to get chipped off by this pick or get them to overplay one way and then get under. you know, you play little games with them and then you ask after, how did that feel? did you know, did I do did I accomplish what I tried to set out to do? I I can't speak highly enough about the concept of underloading. so you know, if you can get multiple people out, if you're if you're a high school kid and you're coaching youth. Say you're a high school kid and you're coaching sixth graders, seventh graders, eighth graders, you're in 11th grade, you're going into your recruiting year. Playing with them probably is no better way to learn deception than that than anything. they're gonna, Jamie Munro: So true. Tim McCormack: you know what I mean? They're gonna you've seen it, you've played it, you've played, no one's played more than you. So you know every level, every skill set, everything there is. And when you do it against. younger kids who are underdeveloped, you are it's it's again, it's an amplification of what it's gonna look and feel like. So yes, it might not be exactly the same, but the intuition and the body language and all that stuff that you're working on and and maybe like absolutely dominating, that stuff's not much different when you get out there against a defender. So I think underloading is huge for this. You know, if you can get groups of multiple people and it's not just you and one other, get into, you know, little two on two games, get into little three on three games, get into two on two with their feeder across. So you can work on throwing it in the middle and you can work on, you know, your your outlets and and things like that. So yeah, I mean it it's a combination of all these things. The bottom line, I think the fur you just can't understand that it it takes multiple people. The other last way I'll say, film. You know, I think the use of film and and and and making sure that if you got an opportunity to film some of that stuff, you do it and you can review it and you can go back and you can see, what it felt like and remember and put yourself back on the field. I I mean, we we have our girls are in for film. It is not a mandatory thing, but we have everyone in every single week and our days are completely booked up by it. you know, so constantly trying to find an edge, get better. learn to you know, to see what was good, what wasn't good and and and keep growing. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Why did that work? Why did that not work? I mean, at the end of the day, it's really kind of hard to understand maybe these coverage solutions in real time out of practice. but it's crystal clear in a very non-emotional way when you look at it on film, right? It's just like, yeah, they went over. This is how you punish that coverage. They switched. This Tim McCormack: That's it. Jamie Munro: is how you punish that coverage. film alone, it's kind of like the knowledge. of and knowledge about it is nice to have knowledge about i mean it helps you to know what to look for and how a coverage actually works and how a coverage solution actually works but you gotta go out and do it tim the one thing you didn't mention though is pickup and this is the thing is Tim McCormack: Yeah. Jamie Munro: like the the to me is like the the biggest home Tim McCormack: It is. And and I frankly I Jamie Munro: Can you explain what it is real quick? Tim McCormack: I ca I will and I felt it was implied, but yeah, everything I'm talking about, you know, that I was just describing revolves around, pick up opportunities. So I mean, going out, throwing your sticks in the middle of a pile, picking teams and you know, play to Play to five, play to six, play to three, create different point systems together. you know, just go out and just play as much as you can, get as many reads as you can. It's it's fun, it's engaging, have different numbers, have odd oddmen, even, all sorts of different things. But no no doubt, you know, I I that was Jamie Munro: You it was implied, but I when I say pick up for the listeners, I'm talking about small nets and tennis balls where you play what we call pickup and you do how much do you guys play that ver version of pickup at Hopkins Practices? Tim McCormack: Every day. Every day. Every Jamie Munro: Every day you guys use small nets and tennis balls. Why? Tim McCormack: day. Yeah. I mean, it scales reps. we could do more and fit more we could have more decisions made in fifteen minutes than somebody else might in two hours by doing this. every Jamie Munro: Yeah. Yeah. Tim McCormack: single player is out, every single player is playing, every single player's on the field, every single player has exponential amount of film on themselves. they got all the reads to go with it. you know, so we do it every day, some in some way, shape, or form. Yeah, no, no doubt. it's been i instrumental in in the success. You know, Jamie Munro: And it's so fun. Tim McCormack: it's the best. It's the absolutely the best. Yeah. It's it's it's engaging. Everybody wants to be there. You know, that's that's one of my core philosophies as a coach in general. It's just make this the most fun part of their day. And when you start your day off with some, with some three, three on three with some tennis balls, your teammates, that's that's a great way to get it going, you know, and and then you layer on how how important it is for for the development of skills and becoming skillful and becoming deceptive. it's incredible. It's incredible. Jamie Munro: Totally. And one of the things too that is so great about this pickup with the small nuts and tennis balls is is that there's always a goalie in. Because that that's the problem when you when you're playing, you know, with friends and there's no goalie. it's worth doing and it's really good for you, but it's it's not even close to as fun when you're shooting on an empty net. No nor is it as as representative of a game. And when you get a a three three by three net or a three and a half by three and a half net, and there's somebody in the net. You know, you actually have to move them and they take up a fair amount of that net. And it's a challenge to score. And the principles of getting to the middle, I mean, it's basically box lacrosse, right? And everybody knows box lacrosse is an unbelievable developer of of skill and IQ. Mostly because you got to get to the middle to score. And that's the name of the game. but like you said, you can play so many different games. You can play a three on three game that's like turns into a three on two. You can turn that three on two into three on two on a side, or you can make it a two on two plus a feeder. So it's a man to man look where you can work on all your two man games and and your nation's looks. You can have space constraints or you could have a shot clock. I mean there's so many things to do and it's so much fun. we actually played a couple hours today to it was a yeah it was pretty fun. Tim McCormack: Nice. Nice. I gotta get up there and do that one of these days. I got that's a Jamie Munro: I know, seriously. Tim McCormack: that's a bucket list thing. I gotta get done. Jamie Munro: Yeah. Well, Tim, I know we spend a lot of time talking about offense and we don't have time to talk a ton about defense. You guys obviously recruit high level players on both sides of the ball. And I'm sure that the concepts are exactly the same on both sides when you're recruiting defenders. Somehow you gotta figure out skill f in IQ. And there's a certain amount of athleticism, I'm sure. but you wanna just talk about that for a couple of minutes before we say goodbye? Tim McCormack: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you know, defenders, obviously you get a ton of chances out there to to guard somebody one on one. you know, so we want to see how how are you doing that? How are you approaching the ball? Get a ton of approaches. Are you getting them into to low angle opportunities? are you are you a great teammate? Are you are you good in the support role? Can you can you read a slide? Are you just going and creating offense? how's your you know, you got great ball pressure. We wanna see that. Obviously in in our style of defense, that's imperative. are you somebody who can cover cutters or are they blowing right past you? first time eight meter ground balls, I mean, so important. So important to prevent the second chance. you know, and and you gotta play clean. If you're out there getting fouls, and you're out there in the in the penalty box once a game, it's tough. It's it you know, it's a It's such a marginally thin error you know, for error here at our level that you you we can't afford it. So those are those are the simple kind of basic principles that we're looking for. Like you said, athleticism. We need people who can handle the ball. Defenders, you should be playing this pickup too. You should be, 'cause it's gonna be your clearing game. we're looking at that. you can't bobble a ball. you gotta catch that thing with some confidence, get it up the field. so yeah, I mean those those are the the main things and and obviously we we play a unique style. So anybody that can do it and and be aggressive and and be confident in themselves is, you know, that's a pretty good option for us. Jamie Munro: do you recruit straight defenders or do you tend to recruit minis and make them into defenders or a combination? Tim McCormack: Combination. Total combination. I I you know I I think you gotta you gotta be looking at people who who take ownership and pride in it. I think you know they they they get a lot of a lot of opportunity to do it. I think MIDI's make great defenders too. we've had our fair share of all. I mean the girl who graduated from our team last year, who's our rover for for four years every game, was a was a high school midfielder. She played up and down, she was a two way kid, she scored goals, she did everything, but she was also one of the best rover backers that I've ever seen play the game. you know, so I I'm not gonna I'm I I wouldn't go heavy in one direction or the other. I think there's an opportunity for all and you know, it it it really is just about kinda needs of team and and what you bring to the table. Jamie Munro: Yeah. You just gotta get the best the best fit for you, for your system. Tim McCormack: A hundred percent. Jamie Munro: Well Tim, thank you so much for taking time on a Sunday night to talk across with me. Tim McCormack: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. Jamie Munro: Yeah, man, super fired up to watch the Jays this year and I will be in touch. Tim McCormack: Awesome. Thanks a lot. Jamie Munro: Thank you. Sara Munro: Thanks for listening to the JM three lacrosse podcast. 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