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Exploring Depths of Healing with Dr Shahrzad Jalai · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Doctor Charzad Jalali, Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: That's fine.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: I hope, I hope my pronunciation was somewhere in the
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: ballpark of correct.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: And so you are a clinical psychologist, but you're trained
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: in linguistics.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: So where did the.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Transition come and do you find your background in linguistics
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: useful in your clinical practice?
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Yes. I almost finished a PhD in linguistics, and at
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: the time, I think I went through what I suppose
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: cause a midlife crisis. I was in my late twenties
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: and I felt like I didn't belong and things weren't
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: going to way I had envisioned them too. So I
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: started to do therapy and throughout that process it was
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: so eye opening for me and life changing that I
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: took a sabat a call and I moved to Italy
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: for three months to learn Italian. And throughout this process,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I think I was just doing a lot of soul
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: searching and the goal was always to come back and
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: finish my PhD in linguistics, and just you know, I
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: had a trajectory set up for me that I was
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: going to follow. But somehow, throughout that process, I decided
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: to move back to the US because I grew up
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: here and go back to school and study psychology. And
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: it was very scary because you know, by the end
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: of your twenties you're supposed to kind of start your life,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: building your life, not go back to school again. But
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I took a risk, and there hasn't been one day
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: that I regret that, I have to admit it.
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: That is a pretty bold move from being part way
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: through or a big chunk way through a PhD and
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: about to get your pH d and then going back.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Did you go back to undergrad or did you mind knows?
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I had to just take some undergrad classes that I
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: hadn't taken because psychology wasn't my major, but the athority
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: of my courses obviously were approved. But I got another
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: master in marriage and family therapy, and then I got
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: my doctorate in clinical psych So there was many years
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: of schooling after that.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Say, my goodness, you'd have spent a fur bit of
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: time at university.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: You probably beaten me actually in the amount of time
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: you spent at Uni.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Now you are very interested in actually, before we do that,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: what are you seeing there in the landscape in terms
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: of clients?
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: Is there are you.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Noticing any particular trends or changes in trends there or
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: is it being very similar since she started practicing as
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: You know, I have to say what I am seeing
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: that I guess captures my attention. Is people tend to
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: become more and more disregulated, more and more quickly. And
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: if I had to guess why, because the nervous system
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: usually responds to safety, or lack of for that matter.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: So my assumption is a lot of people are experiencing,
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: whether it's a perception or reality, lack of safety. Now
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: this could be emotional, it could be societal, it could
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: be financial. But people tend to be reactive when they
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: feel less safe, and it seems like the environment these
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: days is taking us towards that domain more and more.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and interesting you talk about the nervous system, which
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I think is hugely important in psychology. I mean, I'm
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: a psychophysiologist and I'm not a clinical.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: Psychologist, but I have a PhD.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: But also.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Master's to be in exercise science and nutrition, and for me,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: the nervous system, the interaction between physiology and psychology is
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: has been I think historically underappreciated when it comes to
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: mental health.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: Conditions.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: I absolutely agree with you. More and more research is
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: demonstrating that a lot of what happens and the psyche
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: is actually rooted in the body, and therefore I have
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: a very holistic approach in treating patients because not only
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I think the body kind of essentially houses a lot
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: of what we go through from a psychological perspective, but
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: on top of that, it's much easier to get to
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: the psyche from the body because we can't really access
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: our psyche very clearly. But if you learn how to
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: work with our body, we can definitely impact our psyche.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: I would say it's a shortcut for those of us
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: who aren't very depth oriented when it comes to our psyche.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So I absolutely believe that this is where the future
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: of psychology is for sure.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very interesting. My wife's a counselor.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: And she's really got into the to that realm of
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: looking at how the body influences it.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: Have you read, is it, Basil vander Klop The body
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: keeps score.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: I presume with your background because you do somatic work
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: as well, right, so I presume that you're all over
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: this like.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: A spider monkey, as.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I say, I would say that's right.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: What about polyvehicle theory are you? Are you a fan
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: of that?
• 6:16
  Speaker 5: You know what I.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Feel like, there's a lot of truth too. Obviously I
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: am not a physiologist, so my area of knowledge around
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: it is what I have read in papers and how
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: the vagus term impacts our nervous system. So from what
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I read, I find a lot of correlation and truth.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: But I think that's an area that's still not as
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: well researched as you know, the potential, So hopefully we'll
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: have more information as we go forward.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Now you also have a.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Background in union psychology, so called young and who was
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: obviously a very sharp He was big into dreams, wasn't
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: he he was?
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, So Yung was a student of Freud, and the
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: difference between their philosophy is mainly that Freud looked at
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: everything as our individual unconscious, and Jung took that a
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: step further and said, yes, we do have an individual unconscious,
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: but we all also have a collective unconscious, and so
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: everything that everyone before us has endured and gone through
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: and worked through actually impacts our psychology. So as far
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: as Freud was concerned, a lot of things were mainly sexual,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: So He has stages of sexual development in humans and
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: how they impact us, or interruption in each stage impacts us.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Jun had more of a spiritual approach. He seemed to
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: believe that humans are in the distresses that they're in
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: due to their disc connection with spirituality. For the most part,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I like to think that they both made a lot
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: of good points, and in many ways, Yung's association with
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: psychology resonates more with me. He seems to have a
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: philosophical approach that I find very helpful in making treatment
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: plants and working with clients. So there's a lot of
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: working with the unconscious, and as you know, the language
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: of the unconsciousness our fantasies and our dreams, and that's
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: where his dream interpretation comes in, because what the psyche
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: is not able to deal with when you're awake comes
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: to the forefront when we're dreaming, and it's very symbolic,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: and each of us, as you know, has such kind
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: of I would say, intricate personalized dreams, which reflec legs
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: are unconscious. So digging into that with the clients provides
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: them with the roadmap to their own unconscious and helps
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: them understand their psyche much better.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: So is that a big part of your working with
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: clients in the therapeutic relationship?
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: Do you explore their dreams?
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: And is that always the case or is that just
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: if somebody is more open to it?
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: I like to say in my approach, is always the case?
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Does the client always display the desire or the ability
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: to connect with it? Not always. I think people have
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: to get to a point where they're thinking about situations
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: a little bit more in dept and having more of
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: a I would say therapeutic association with wanting to deal
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: with whatever it is that's bringing them to therapy. Usually
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: when people come in under in crisis, all they want
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: to do is find the solution to their crisis, and
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: that's what usually brings people in. But people who sort
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: of pass that and get to the next level of
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: actually working under psyche usually have more of a willingness
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  Speaker 2: for it.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, gotcha.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: So when when you've fixed the immediate problem, the big
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: flashing problem, then it's more that exploration of consciousness and
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: these sorts of.
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: Things that you use the dreams for. Is that yes?
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: So initially when I went to school, I was trained
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: in the cognitive model. As you know, that's what insurances
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: and doors at the moment, and we are a society
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: of wanting really quick fixes for you situations that rise up.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: So I actually went and took a seminar with David
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Burns his up in Palo Alto, and he's very big
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: after back in the cognitive approach, and I felt like
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: I had the Bible and I was good to go.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And I started to see patients and I've got a
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: lot of good results. I mean, a patient would come
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: and tell me I'm afraid of getting into an elevator,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: and then I would do my magic and then they
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: would go and they would feel okay, and you know,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: everything was good until the same patient would call me
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: a year later and say, you know what, doctor Jeli,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: I'm still good with the elevator thing, but now I
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: can't get into a cap to save my life. And
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: I wonder where this is coming from. And then I
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: would sit down with the patient again trying to get
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: to the root of this. And that's when I realized,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: as wonderful and amazing as cognitive approaches are, and I
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: still use a lot of them in my work, they
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: fall short because we're not really getting to the root
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  Speaker 2: of where is this fear coming from and why was
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: it formed? To begin with? What is what is it
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: doing for the client? How is it serving a client?
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  Speaker 2: And that's when I decided to delve into this realm
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: a little bit more, and I looked into different analytical
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: approaches and as I said, you really resonated with me.
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  Speaker 2: So I started affiliating myself with the Union Institute in
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Los Angeles and taking their courses and getting mentorship, and.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: So give us the high level overview for the people
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: who are not students of psychology, just at a high level,
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  Speaker 1: what how are those approaches different? The psychoanalytical therapies on
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: one side, and then the cognitive therapies, whether it's CBT
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: or acceptance commitment therapy or any of those. What are
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: the fundamental differences that that maybe a client would experience
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: as they come in.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, CBT is a lot more fact based, homework based
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  Speaker 2: spreadsheets and targeting, for example, a negative thought and reframing
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: it into a more positive thought. More skilled based in
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: the sense that you learn a technique, you apply it
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: to a particular situation and you get a different result.
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  Speaker 2: Analytical psychology not so much. Analytical psychology is very much
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  Speaker 2: depth oriented. It gets to the root of why that thought.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: For example, that negative thought is there to begin with.
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  Speaker 2: So it's not so much concerned with reframing the negative
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: thought into a positive one. Although I think that's something
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: that happens as a result of working on it, it's
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: not necessarily the therapeutic goal. The therapeutic goal is to
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: understand the human psyche and to figure out why the
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: unconscious is running the show the way it is, and
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: what do we have to do to put potentially have
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: a different outlook on the matter. So it's a little
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: bit more sophisticated, I want to say, and more complicated
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: than your average cognitive approaches.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: And how big is childhood in the psychoanalytical realm?
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: I think I know the answer to that. But just
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: give us an.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Example of how childhood can influence things liater in life
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: that are completely subconscious reactions that someone may not have
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: a clue about. But then through that therapeutic process you
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: kind of unpack why it's there in the first place,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: talk us through what that looks like.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So obviously, most analysts believe that whatever happens to us
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: in the first five years of our lives essentially dictates
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: how our unconscious or our personality gets formed.
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Having said that, it does not mean that when you're
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: doing analytical work you're necessarily rooted in those childhood years
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: and working through them. What that means is you recognize
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: that certain complexes, as you calls them, for example, the
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: mother complex the father complex, which are ways that we
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: come to see the world, are rooted in those initial
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: years of your life, but they are dominating your life
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: as an adult. So what we want to do in
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: therapy is not to necessarily go back and do something
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: about that, because there's nothing you can do. You were
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: born into a particular family and you had a particular
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: life trajectory. But what you can do is develop a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: different way to respond to that complex at the moment.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: To give you an example, I once worked with a
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: woman who when her mother gave birth to her, she
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: passed away. This was back in the day that they
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: didn't have very good medical interventions and a lot of
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: women would die at childbirth. And my patient grew up
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: an orphan and as such, she had this orphan complex
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: that she carried with her thinking that the world doesn't
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: want me. I am not wanted, I'm not appreciated, I'm
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: not loved, and she worked in a law firm. At
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: this point when I was working with her, she was
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: probably sixty year old woman, and at one point we
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: worked through her complex. We did about two years of
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: work together, and one day she called me crying and I
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: thought she had an emergency, so I responded and she
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: couldn't stop crying, and I kept on asking her, are
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you okay? And she said, therapy works. And I said
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: why what happened? It was near Christmas time and she said, well,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I came to work today and I noticed that everyone
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: was talking about this Christmas party that one of the
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: people at work is hosting. And I looked on my desk.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: There was no invitation for me. And she had worked
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: in that offer for many, many years, and she's like,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: I got upset. I packed up a box and I
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: decided to quit my job. I wrote a resignation letter
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: and I said, no one really wants me here. They
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: don't even include me in a simple celebration, and she's like.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: I went to leave the letter at my boss's desk
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: and I stopped and I said, wait a second, this
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: is not me. This is my complex. And I was
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: able to step out of it. And not do that.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: And sure enough, when she returned back to her desk,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: one of the ladies walked up to her and said, oh,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: your invitation was stuck to mine and gave it to her,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: and she realized it was a misunderstanding, but she said,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: if this was me three years ago, I would I
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: would have reacted to that situation because the complex was
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: dominating my life. The complex is still there, but now
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I've learned how to respond to it instead of reacting
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: to it. Now it doesn't run the show. I am
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: in charge of the complex, right and that's what analytical
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: work does.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: And presumably there's a whole host of different complex So
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: you talked about the mother complex, the father complex, you
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: talked about the orphan complex. So give us an example
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: of some other of the known complexes that affect people,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: and basically they maybe explore how some of these things
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: could have served you well when you're younger, but are
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: no longer serving you well, nigh, and how the disentangle
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: those things.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: You know what, That's a great question. People always ask
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: me about this in therapy, and I can tell you,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: as we have an array of complexes, I don't think
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: there is a limit to them as much as humans
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: exist and they deal with such we have complexes around
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: those issues. For example, we have money complex, whether you're
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: overspending or underspending, or how much money dominates your life.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Let's say you feel like you have to work a
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: lot and be very successful, otherwise your life doesn't matter.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: This is a form of success complex or money complex.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Anything that you're not in resolution around in your life
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: can potentially be a complex. It's a situation or a
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: notion that you've developed not a healthy relationship with. Now
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: it can go either way.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: So let's flip over and talk about your work on
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: the somatic side of things. So you talk about a
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: body body centered approaches to trauma, and can you expand
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: on that a little bit and tell us how that
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: has become a part of your practice.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. So, as you pointed out earlier, a lot of
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: the new research alludes to the fact that trauma actually
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: gets processed in the body, and if we don't have
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: a proper way of releasing it from the body, it
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: continues to get stored in the body and stays there. Therefore,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: our physiology continues to be reactive to a particular event.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: So many scholars have gone about this from different perspectives.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you're familiar with Peter Levine's work. He has
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: created this modality called somatic experiencing. If I want to
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: put in very simple terms, he pretty much brings your
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: attention to the way your body stores emotions. So, when
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: you're feeling anxious, how does your body house that anxiety?
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: How do you know you're anxious? Is it that your
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: heart is beating faster? Is it that your stomach feels
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: like there's butterflies? Is it that you tense your muscles?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Is it that you have pain somewhere in your body?
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: So by bringing attention to that dynamic, it makes it
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: easy to treat the anxiety. Because every particular emotions is
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: associated with a particular thought or a few different thoughts
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: and a few different physiological responses. We can manipulate the
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: emotion itself necessarily, but we can manipulate our thoughts and
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: our physiology to a great extent if we learn how to.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So by doing that, what we essentially do is we
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: impact the emotion without necessarily addressing the emotion by creating
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: space in the body. There are other approaches that do
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: the same thing, brain spotting emdr They all have their
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: own garbage and their own dynamics around explaining this notion.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: But essentially I would say they are all using physiological
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: responses to treat psychological distress.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: So e M d R eye movement, desensitization, retreating, if.
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: I'm correct, which.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Uses Just explain for our listeners who may not be
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: familiar with these things. Explain what e M d R is,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: just at a high level and maybe how it's supposed
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: to work. Because I read some research on that, I'm
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: just blown away. And then Brian Spotting. I've never heard
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: of Brian Spotting, So so just just give us just
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: a top level overview of what that is.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, So in e M d R, what happens is
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: we use actually eye movement when we are working on
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: a piece of trauma. So it works on the idea
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: that trauma gets stuck in the brain's memory network in
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: its raw emotional form. When that happens, ordinary reminders can
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: trigger the same physiological distress as the original event, and
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: ember helps the brain reprocess these memories so they are
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: stored adaptively without the overwhelming charge. So the therapist ask
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: the client to bring a distressing image or memory to
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: mind and then they are at the same time engaging
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: in bilateral stimulation. Right, so your gaze moves from the
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: right to the left, rapid eye movement. You can use
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: your hand to guide this. You can just ask the
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: client to change their gaze. There are light bars and
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: stuff that some people use. You can even use altering
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: taps or tones between the left and the right. People
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: can do this with music that you hear from one
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: year and then the other. And then the assumption is
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: when you think of a piece of trauma and you
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: engage that bilateral stimulation in the brain, you have the
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: ability to reduce the overreaction of the magdala, increase prefrontal regulation,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: and restore connectivity in the hypocampus, which helps with the
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: integration of the positive memory versus the original response the
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: patient was having. So we use it for things like
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: phobias and panic, complicated grief, chronic pain, performance, anxiety, or
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: any kind of I would say distressful emotional experience the
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: client has experienced in the past.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: It's also has it been used for pts as well?
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, because I think, as you said rightly, I remember
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: doing some work with Evy and Gordon many years ago
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: from the Brian Resource Institute, and he was saying PTSD
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: is basically.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: The memory getting caught in a loop and not being
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: processed correctly.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: And as you said, the a md R can help
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: change the process and then dample, damp and down the amigdala,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: which is just it's fascinating stuff, isn't it. Hi, Moving
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: your eyes while thinking about something can actually change.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: How that emotion runs in your brain. It's just bonkers fascinating.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: So what about Brian Spotting? Never heard of it?
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, find spotting I would say has probably not gained
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: as much traction, but I personally like it a lot.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: In fact, as a patient and as a clinician, I
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: it's a powerful brain body based psychotherapy that helps clients
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: process trauma, emotional trauma that is obviously rooted in their psyche.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: It was developed by David Grant, I believe. Don't quote
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: me on this, but I believe in two thousand and
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: three it actually grew out of EMDR And it's often
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: described as where you look affects how you feel. So
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: in brain spotting, we use a pointer and we bring
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: the client's attention to a particular traumatic event and we
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: move the pointer around the central premise of brain spotting
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: is that I position can access specific neural networks where
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: emotional or traumatic experiences are stored. When the I focuses
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: on a brain spot, a visual point linked to an
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: internal emotional or somatic activation, the brain naturally begins to
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: process and release you know what it's holding there. So,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: in essence, brain spotting taps directly into the sub quarter
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: called brain, the limbic brain that's responsible for survival emotional memory,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: and then it helps by keeping the client's gaze there
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: and holding that tension. Eventually really begins to happen, so
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: you see clients shaking or crying or remembering things that
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: you know they have disengaged with from that memory. It's
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: actually very powerful technique, and you can even do it
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: on yourself and all honesty. Sometimes when something is bothering
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: me and it's called self spotting, and I'm having difficulty
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: tapping into it fully, I just kind of ground myself
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: with a few deep breaths, and then I start to
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: think about it and noticed my physiology, and then I
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: turned my gaze around to see is it worse when
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I look to my left? Is it worse when I,
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: you know, look to my right, and I picked the
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: spot that it's bothering me the most, and I just
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: sit there with it for a little bit, and then
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: obviously that's my trigger spot. I know I already have
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: a safe spot that I can go to as well,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: So then I start to vacillate between my trigger spot
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: and my safe spot, and after a while, the emotion
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: goes down better around it.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Interesting, I had an experience, well, I witnessed an experience.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I've talked about this on a different podcast. Listeners may
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: have heard this or not, but there was I went
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: to a breath work session with a guy called Barney
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: who has been on the podcast, and we talked about this,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: and my little guy was with me, and it was
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: it was an urge breath or about an hour and
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: a half, but the major chunk of it, we were
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: doing this sort of controlled hyperventilation, sort of holotropic.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: Breeding for quite a while, these big, powerful.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Breaths, and my son was lying beside me. Now, Oscar
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: had he had developed Cushing's disease a number of years
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: ago and it was obviously a pretty horrible time for him.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: And ever since Cushing's disease and anytime he talked about.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: It, he would become very.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Emotional around it, which is very understandable because it was
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: it was a pretty traumatic time for him. But he
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: did this breath work and I don't know, it's maybe
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: thirty minutes in there were other people around the room
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: crying or making signs, and Oscar said to me afterwards,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: he said he was lying there and he could hear
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: this person crying, and he said, what the hell's wrong
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: with this person? Why on earth are they crying? And
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, he started crying and he
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: had no idea why, and he just kept crying. But
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: he said he wouldn't didn't feel upset, but he was
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: just crying uncontrollably, and it went on for probably five
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: minutes and then it was just kind of a little
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: bit spaced out by it. And afterwards he said it
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: just completely changed, and all of a sudden, now he
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: can talk about his cushions disease without.
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: Any emotion in it.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: I have seen other people in those breathwork classes, you know,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: some of them their hands turning to clause when they're
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: doing the breath work. They have these big emotional releases.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: There's like and it's it's people who have been through.
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: Hard or traumatic experiences.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Now, I don't know if you've ever experienced anything of that,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: but is there anything that you know from your training
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: in the somatic realm that could be explaining what the
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: hell is going on?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm actually very familiar with holotropic reading. I believe,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, it was developed by Growth in
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: the seventies and it operates on understanding that this very
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: much resonates with my type of work, that the psyche
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: has an innate drive towards healing and integration, right, and
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: all these things that you're observing are fragmented parts of
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: our psyche because you have to think about it this way.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: When we go through hardship, a part of kind of
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: like imagine, and if your body gets wounded, it can
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: get dismembered, like if you're in an accident, you can
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: lose a limb. Right. When the psyche goes through something traumatic,
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: something the equivalent it experience is something that's the equivalent
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: of getting dismembered for the body, right, and it turns
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: into all these fragmented parts. For example, when you receive
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: really bad news, when you're going through a very difficult disease,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: when you lose someone you genuinely love, right, So then
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: it needs to go back to healing and integration. It
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: needs to bring all those fragmented parts to a whole.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: So given the right conditions, for example, heightened breath, supportive environment,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and non judgmental facility, kind of any kind of facilitation,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: you know, it could be a therapist, it could be
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: you doing the work. The unconscious can bring forth unresolved emotions,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: memories and inner imagery for processing and release and kind
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: of like we talked about earlier, a lot of this
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: is stored in the body because imagine I am driving
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: and a car hits me. In that moment, the car
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: hits me, and I don't get to finish that response
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: because I was going to have a response. I was
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: going to run away. I was going to get away
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: from this, but I was caught in that moment and
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't get to finish that response. Right, So, when
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: these releases happen, the body goes back to that initial
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: memory and potentially releases that interrupted response that that sometimes
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: happens through shaking. Sometimes you see jerking of people's limbs
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: or let's say they're holding on to something very tight,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: and these are very normal dynamics that you're observing people
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: that are going through these kinds of healing and releasing
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the trauma from their body.
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: It's very interesting.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: And you know, five or ten years ago, if you
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: were saying that sort of stuff to me, I would
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: have a little part of my brain would be going,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: this is woo woo horseshit right. But having experience, not
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: personally because like I've had a pretty easy life without
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: any any trauma at all, but having been in numerous
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: breathwork sessions where I have seen lots of people who
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: have had, you know, traumatic experiences in their past and
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: seen and heard reactions during it, but then afterwards them
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: talking about it and feeling like there's a weightlifted, Like
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: there's just way too much of this going on for
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: it to be We.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: Worry, and I think we.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Are starting to really understand some of those processes that
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: you talked about, whether it's from AMDR or somatic therapies,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: are the body keeps the score. It really is kind
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: of undeniable when you witness it, isn't it.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: The whole goal of this you have to keep in
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: mind is for us to experience safety again. So whatever physiological, emotional,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: psychological cognitive dynamics that's associated or we have come to
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: associate with lack of safety we have to let go of. Now,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: this usually happens through rituals. I'm not saying when people
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: go through these experiences it's life changing, but I think
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: it at least lets you get out whatever it is
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: that's dominating your psyche in that moment, and then the
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: psyche is multi layered, so and ways you can go
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: about that, maybe through changing your life to some extent,
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: changing your routines, changing the things you do, the pressures
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: you put on yourself. But it's a great.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Start, and so let's go back and talk about you
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: and your journey. So what have been the biggest things
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: that have influenced you.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: Both personally and then professionally in terms of influenced why
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: you do what you do?
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: You know what, I think the best way for me
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: to answer that is I've always have had a very
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: restless soul that potentially needed more taming than your average person.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: I think I've always had a lot of questions and
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of big emotions, and my life has been
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: pretty much dedicated to finding those answers for myself. And
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: in the midst of all this, I went through something
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: very traumatic. I went back home to visit my parents
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: when I was doing my PhD in psychology, and we
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: got into a car accident when they were taking me
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: to the airport to come back to the States. So
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: a drunk driver on the other side of the street
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: fell asleep and he was to truck. The truck landed
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: on our car. My father passed away at the accident's side,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: and I was injured very badly. I was thrown out
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: of the car and had severe injuries to my head
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: and my face, and went through lots of recovery and surgery,
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: and obviously it was a very traumatic event and it
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: impacted my family, my sisters very greatly, my mother, and
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: you know. As I was trying to make my way
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: out of this traumatic event, I went to a lot
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: of different therapists, a lot of different modalities of therapy,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: and one thing I started to do was I started
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: to write about my emotions. It's something I usually do
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: when I'm struggling with something. And one of my sisters
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: at one point read parts of it and said, you
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: need to turn this into a book because it can
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: really help some people. So I took the amalgamation of
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: my personal experience, and I connected that with the trauma
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: I've seen in my patients, the relation on many trauma
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: over the past decade, because I think that's one of
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: the main things I deal with when I do therapy
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: with clients. And I created a story around a woman
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: named Charlotte who's going through life thinking she's very successful
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and she's living life and not understanding that her past
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: traumas are dominating her life actually, and then I wrote
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: the book The Fire That Makes Us regarding Charlotte's story,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: and at the end of each chapter, I stop and
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: I talk about the psychology of that dynamic and talk
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: about how to navigate this if we're in it because
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: our psychological wounds we can never completely heal from a
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: very you know, cautious about how phrase that, because sometimes
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: people feel like if they've gone through something, they can
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: just you know, heal from it in a way as
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: if it has never happened. But that's not the case.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: You're not supposed to come out of it that way.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Every negative story has also a positive side. You don't
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: just lose something when you go through something traumatic, you
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: gain a lot as well. So you don't want to
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: fully come out of that. You want to bring out
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: the gold that you have acquired as a result of
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: going through that. They're your war wounds, right, So I'm
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: hoping it works as a guideline for people who are
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: struggling with something, feel like they're stuck in something, there's
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: something they can't let go of. And I think that's
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: where my life journey has brought me to answer your
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: question in a very long way.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Like, sorry to hear about that, sorry to hear about
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: the passing of your dad, But.
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: Was the writing of the book? Was that important for
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: you to.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Move on and.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: Get on with your life. I'm very careful to say
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: to not say to me. Yeah, you know, I.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Think my healing journey had started way before that. I
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: think I was fully functional by the time I started
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: to actually write the book. I had done a lot
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: of writing prior to that that I think had served
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: that purpose. But the book actually just got published this September,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: so I literally started writing it about two three years ago.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: It wasn't publishing for about a year, so three years ago.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I think it's brought a lot of resolution to what
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I went through. So it's kind of when I look
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: at the final result. It makes me feel like my
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: pain wasn't interested in vain. It gave birth to something
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: that can potentially help other people. So in that sense,
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: I think it has yes.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: And I like that you talked about finding the goal.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: You mentioned something about that. I mean, the historic philosophers
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: talked a lot and this really resonates with me about
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: the marks of a chisel and all the hardship that you've.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Been through life.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: These are marks of a chisel, but you should were
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: those marks of a chisel with pride, because often people
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: just want to forget about it and move on and
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: heal and move past it. But there are lessons to
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: be learned, and there are things to be gleaned from
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: these difficult circumstances, aren't there.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, if we learn how to approach them, and if
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: we're not afraid of them, and if we integrate them
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: into our story, they make us very powerful.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, So how do you so, particularly given
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: that you're working with people with trauma, how do.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: You not let that affect you?
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Because there's you know, there's well known phenomenon in psychology
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: called transference, where I if you're talking to somebody about
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: their problems, particularly traumatic stuff.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: It's really hard not to take that on yourself.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: So and that's why I lot of psychologists and psychiatrists
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: get burned out.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: So how do you deal with that?
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: How do you navigate that?
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: When I teach them, when I train interns, they always
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: ask me this because they get to a point that
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: it can really impact you. And I always tell them this.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: I say, if there comes a time that what you
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: do doesn't impact you, it means you're not being helpful
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: to anyone because you're taking your humanity out of it.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Somebody's pain or somebody's pleasure should impact you, because you're
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: a human being. But the way you approach it, if
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: you take on their pain as if it's your pain,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: and if you embody that, then you can no longer
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: help them. But if you see it as a gift
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: that they are kind of giving you access into the
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: most personal part of their being, they're inviting you somewhere
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: that they don't even deem to go themselves, very easily,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: it turns into an exploration, an invitation to explore, to hold,
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: to provide some light in this darkness that the patient
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: themselves can explore. So I think if you know your
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: own boundaries, that your job is not to solve this
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: pain or to take it away. Your job is to
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: expand your client so that the pain is no longer
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: at them in their entirety, but just a part of
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: who they are, and now they can hold it better,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: then you can focus on your job.
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's really cool.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I like that because what you often will see is
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: that some psychologian and doctors get completely burned out and
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: others can become completely desensitized, you know, So I think
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I think your methodology helps to navigate that path and.
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: Make sure you don't fall either way.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: So what are you What are you excited about in
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: the future in terms of psychology and how that can
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: help people.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: You know, I feel like more and more people are
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: opening up to actually working on themselves. I'm not saying
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: psychology is the only tool, but I think if we
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: focus on expansion, if we focus on otherness, acceptance, coming
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: to terms with the fact that we live in a world,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: that people have different opinions than we do, and there
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: could be a way that we could live with each
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: other in harmony instead of trying to essentially prove that
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: our world view is the best and we're right and
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: nobody else is. I think that makes me excited about
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: a future where humans can potentially connect with each other
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: versus where we seem to be at the moment, which
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: is a lot of this kind act. And I think
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: more and more people are opening up to expanding their
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: sense of self, whether through any kind of practices, obviously therapy.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I think we all need to do a lot of
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: work on our nervous systems and the way that they've
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: been conditioned or reactiveness, and my own personal work, I
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: am very excited about the course of design Regulate to
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Rise that essentially it's a nervous system reset framework. It's
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: an eight module course that uses everything we talked about,
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: from bilateral stimulation to somatic work to cognitive work to
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: help you reset your nervous system in very digestive, all
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: small bites that you can use in your everyday life.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: There are many, many, many modalities out there that that
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: can potentially resonate with different people. So I just want
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: to encourage everyone to go look for whatever it is
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: that works for them, because there is something in this
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: world that works for you. And once you find that
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: you're no longer the victim, you are exercising your agency
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: and you're changing your world, and when you change the world,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: you'll change everybody else's.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: And I think psychology can be and has been, very
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: helpful for people, particularly if they've had trauma. But to
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: your point, I think you know if you haven't had
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: significant issues there. I think the storage used to say
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: philosophy is the doctor's office for the mind.
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: And I find that that particularly philosophy and particularly stoicism,
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: is very very good at at.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Helping you navigate the inevitable bumps in the road and
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: the odd shit sandwich from the universe.
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: But to your part about your course the nervous system,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: I mean I am seeing more and more that people
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: are they have disregulated autonomic nervous systems. We are in
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: we have an environment that is just a driver of
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: sympathetic activation, and as you rightly said, and as we
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: discussed earlier on, that has a massive impact on your psychology,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: but then also influences your sleep, which influences.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Your movement unit. And it's all connected, isn't it.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Like I hear this idea that psychology is separate to physiology,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: because it's not like this just remains up here and
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: the physiology is done there.
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: We are these connected beings.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: So tell us where can people find out more both
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: about your book, the Fact that makes Us and also
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: the course the Nervous System Reset that you are just
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: about the finish.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, the course will be launched Dunker Joby, but they
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: can find all the information on my website at Jalaly
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: dot com. They are also a podcasts that they can
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: listen to regarding the book and the fire that makes
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: us at this point is everywhere. They can order on Amazon,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Barnes and Nobles or major bookstores.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: And.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: I put up a lot of I want to say,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: educational clips on YouTube, on Instagram, TikTok on their Aligned Remedy,
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: which is the name of one of my practices here
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: in Orange County. They can definitely find the information there
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: and hopefully they find it helpful awesome.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: So we will put all of those links into the
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: show notes so that people can go and access them.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: And I just want to thank you for your time
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: and for your for your work and then long may continue.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It was wonderful being here.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: Pleasure