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SBP 225: The PostPod - Lessons from Traci Alfford. Good Work Is a Habit Not a Score · Sleeping Barber - A Marketing Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Sleeping Baba podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's time for the post pod.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Are you ready?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Did that come out weird?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was great.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not you, it's me.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: For some reason I just wasn't expecting it right then, and you did a great job with it.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Been doing this for five years now, right?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, it still surprises me.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's how it keeps the magic alive, V.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, you know it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we are gonna do in the postpod for Tracy Alfred.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, first of all, it was great to meet her.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was fantastic.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I love meeting people, doing these interviews live with real people in real life.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's fun.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's real real life.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not that they're not real life when you know we talk about film online, but uh it's just different.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's really fun.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll be honest, I'm quite envious podcasts that can only like that really do like the live interviews.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can do that full time because obviously you grade a different connection, there's different energy in the moment.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: But Tracy was phenomenal.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Great conversation that we had that covered actually quite a bit of ground.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when you when I reflect back.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Holy smoke.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where do you want to start with that?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of which.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the first thing off the bat would have been this effectiveness is a system, not a scorecard, which I thought was a really nice like way of kind of thinking about things.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: What Tracy did really well, she kind of reframed effectiveness as a discipline built on four connected parts.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: They were, what was it?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Objectives, insight, creativity, and learning.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And most organizations obsess over the results while neglecting the upstream thinking that produces them in reality.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was a great way of rethinking of like, hey, what is if what is an effectiveness system meant to do?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really good point.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's I mean, there's one part where you can know the stuff, right?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like the all the literature and the knowledge and all that kind of stuff.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's great.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's a whole other thing around actually implementing it.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then learning from that so that you get better and better and better.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a whole yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: It I really do like that that framework.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: The marketing objectives part two, starting there.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we talk that's an easy one.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people would start at and recognize where you go, okay, well, that's yeah, sure, objectives, duh.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: But duh.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like it that it becomes the system.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like I keep thinking about when we were talking to Rethink way back when with the crafts framework, like that's become a system for them.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's repeatable and scalable.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the effectiveness part is a scalable system if you want it to be.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just about playing by the the funnel rules, it's about you know creating something that does something or creating a system that builds learning right into the whole framework.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like uh maybe the problem here is like, and maybe this more of a question for for discussion for both of us, but like, do we spend enough time defining the problem before building campaigns?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like you think of those four pillars, like they're quite interconnected, but maybe we're not spending enough time up front to actually drive the desired outcomes that we're looking for.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as soon as you mentioned that, there's that was it, Einstein, one of those quotes about like if I had an hour, I'd spend that f 95% of the 55 minutes trying to solve the problem before it giving the answer kind of thing.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or understanding the problem.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Understanding the problem, right?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there's a lot of it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then reflecting also, you know, stitching in some of the conversation we had with David Tiltman, that there was what was it, four was it 40 days was the average campaign length or less?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: 36 days, I think, was for non was it, non-brand campaigns, and then it got to 40 or something like that.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: If it was a brand campaign.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: If it was a brand campaign.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we probably aren't spending enough time thinking about the problem because the campaign length is so short.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: So why would you why would you spend any more time than you have to if you're like on to the next thing in the next 30 days?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell It's we're constantly trying to, we're we're moving quicker, which means that we're not spending enough time on really defining on maybe I think the one pillar, the first pillar that I feel like really gets neglected here is like the objective side.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're not really defining an objective.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're maybe defining what a desired outcome could look like.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: But what are you really trying to do?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're not spending enough time there, which then it's like what insight are you pulling to help, you know, build this out?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is it actually rooted in uh in what you need for it to happen?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think, again, this is just my I'm just speculating here.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Most of us, what we get wrong is the lead up.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like the creative part, I think we, you know, we can push our partners to get there from, you know, we you can look at the crafts framework that Rethink has.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of agencies have great frameworks that they use on the creative side.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that you can get there.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I just feel like the objectives and the insight side are something that we're probably under-investing time in.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some of the other things that she talked about too, related to that, like the people and culture part of the actual engine of effectiveness.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think it's such an important point that we kind of but we over I think we just gloss over that in a lot of ways.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, maybe it's just a you and me thing, but but it maybe but it it's really it it becomes I keep and then this is where I start thinking about like Roger Martin stuff, like the capability, core capabilities in the strategic cascade.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have the right capabilities, then what would have to be true for you to get them?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just because you say you want to do something, like spend more time on the objectives part part of it, doesn't mean that you actually have the right people in place to do that or give them the right time to be able to do that.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so then it becomes a really critical component to make sure there's you know enough enough time so that people can all get the boat together and start rowing the same direction with without like having to worry about people yelling at them for spending time to get into the boat.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably gonna get this wrong, but I remember her I remember her saying something to the effect of like great systems don't create great marketing, great teams do.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have all the systems, you can have all the processes, you can have all the frameworks, but the only way those things are brought to life, if there's real great cohesion between the working groups to actually deliver on set objectives, set outcomes, and things like that.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that can't be understated.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you know, related to another thing that she brought up was about the stakeholder management part, having similar language in collaboration with the other executives and the team members that you're gonna be participating with.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So things like the CTO, the CEO, CFO, CIO, who whoever you need to be a part of that.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, rather than just the marketing department, the effectiveness system extends into the company.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's much more than just, you know, the marketing team is doing this.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and getting everybody on board and having them aligned and having that common language that we've we've we talk about the common language part quite a bit and trying to figure out what that means, which is also part of the execution, which is why I think this becomes so challenging because it's it extends further than just my job and my role.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I think about it selfishly, there has to be a clear scope, you know, in in educating this the partners of the business.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very easy to say we need common language.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot tougher to do.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's I don't I don't want to say it's one of the hardest things, but because you're always dealing with different people who have gone through different experiences, it's going to be difficult to try to get people on board with some sense of common language on how they assess things.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And especially with a discipline like marketing for the longest time is for the most part perceived somewhat subjectively.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to say, hard to do.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like and why why is that, do you think?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I think people are very quick, especially in when when we're talking about our our own discipline, to look at their own behaviors as truths.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And be and because of that, it makes it easy to make a point.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: I can't make a point on the accounting side or the finance side, because I'm not a practicing accountant or have any any skills on the finance side.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you we always default to like, hey, whatever they say.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, though, because we're all consumers, we're all part of these buying teams, if you're on the B2B side, like we have opinions, and because those opinions sometimes supersede what the data says or what the research says, we use them and define those as our own truths that then, depending on who you are in your organization, if you're a high-ranking officer, if you're someone that's just starting in your career, you're probably gonna do something that probably contradicts your own truth, but you're just gonna go with it because either they're signing paychecks or you know, you're you're looking to grow yourself.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's the sheer structure of our teams that don't allow for some of this to permeate, and then it's always, you know, whoever has the loudest voice in the moment.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Going back to the incentives episodes that we did on the sharp cut, do you think incentives are in the way?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that maybe where even the management systems that we have that are in place need to be re-evaluated?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that's a great point.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great that that's a great like connection, actually.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I keep thinking about like in our shared experience, you had objectives for running search.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say, that were not necessarily the same objectives that I had for running social.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because the channel that we had and what was measuring it.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or and how we measured success and what metrics were available to us.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Which is also different than, say, what the brand team might have been measured by or the creative team was measured by.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So there wasn't really I mean, yes, there's a global, yes, sales are important, but nobody it's so far removed, I think, in a lot of ways, compared to where we were sitting in our in our cubicles.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wonder if there's something there around having a midlayer of a global KPI for the marketing team.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not just one, but but just something more clearly connected to what we're all trying to achieve as opposed to what we're doing channels.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just think about it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know you've you've gone on record saying this, but like for the longest time, we focused our attention on reporting things like impressions.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was our way to showcase volume, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, now impressions can be gained, and it's not easy.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not all impressions are created equally and and things to that effect.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So is there another cap Yeah, by the way.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: By the way.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to go down another rabbit hole here, but like, yeah, I think I'm with you.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think the incentives probably need to adjust to ensure like there's less subjectivity that goes into the decision making of our discipline.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you think about a campaign and you think about the effectiveness of a campaign, even when I was working at the agency running the agency that I had been involved with, like the the people who were responsible for producing different parts of the campaign also had their own objectives.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're trying to get, you know, from a PR perspective, X number of pickup, stories picked up.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's somebody running digital.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're trying to get like X number of or Y number of impressions, like to your point, or clicks or whatever the thing is.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it like but and then we didn't always have the business data to connect to.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Nope.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because they for reasons, you know, for various reasons, they might not have wanted to share the business data with the agency.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or we just didn't have it because we didn't ask for it.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So but there's like this horizon that's so much shorter, I I think, that we often look at because of the things that are right in front of us, which are usually at the end of our desktop and not at the end of the cash register.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I know we were having a totally separate conversation, an offline conversation yesterday.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And even something as simple as saying, like, what what is a desired outcome that we need to learn?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are we trying to drive revenue?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Are we trying to drive profits?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Are we trying to drive penetration?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are we trying to drive like whatever it is, it does create a different plan or a different strategy that you're trying to deploy.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think even something like that isn't common language across the teams.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: For the most part.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm overgeneralizing here.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's teams that are really just saying, like, hey, we're we're gonna drive revenue and we're gonna do as much we can there, and we'll manage that bottom line the best we can.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just a straight.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So just drive revenue.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But all too often it there is conflicting.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it is like, is it leads that we're going for?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is it, you know, just trying to drive a lot of qualified traffic to the website?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever that KPI is, that has to become commonplace.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: It leads to like true effectiveness at the end of the day if we're trying to bring it back.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I know Tracy mentioned this too, that the long-term brand building always helps short term, but short-term doesn't always help your brand building.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so you get to manage both.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: But then just thinking that about that in context of what we're talking about, it's really because of these, a lot of the channels now, and the half of I think it's more than 50%.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: The last time I looked, more than half of all media spend is on digital channels.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning like Facebook, Google, that kind of thing.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you have these channels that are highly optimized and highly incentivizing behavior to put more money into them.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's like this short-term component to them that's that's enticing and attractive and seductive.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: So as a starting point, you go, okay, right, so let's let's do that.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's make sure we're optimizing and not leaving anything on the table there.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Then how do you, I guess, what do I and your experience, like how do you think about effectiveness overall and how do you get what's the unlock to get people to see the long-term part?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And to realize that you can't measure all those things.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's recency bias, if I'm honest with you, but like our conversation with James Herman was probably like a great unlock for me and positioning things as future demand.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I think he's used an analogy where you know you can you can plant and you can harvest.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you're harvesting today wasn't planted today.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's it's almost, you know, what was his term?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like advertising doesn't persuade people in the moment or something to that to that effect.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when I think about it that way, like if you want to truly be effective, is like you got to be quite methodical and say, like, what are we gonna plant today that we should reap the benefits of in the next six months, 10 months, 12 months, 18 months?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's effectiveness.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's effectiveness thinking, looking at over a longer horizon, which I think the hardest thing to do is because the business wants to reap the benefits today, which pushes us constantly down this path of overinvesting in that 5% in market today.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you're I don't want to say you're on borrowed time.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you're working in an industry that there's maybe few uh few competitors.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you're always kind of top of mind.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's always something there to harvest.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: But there's other, there's other industries where that's not the case.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I again I industry dynamics do play a role in this, but I think overall, really kind of thinking about things as future demand and I think is a probably the first step that I would take and trying to get alignment.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I mean Tracy mentioned had this other quote about risk and bravery, and and risk sometimes means thought about your headwinds or your tailwinds, where bravery is more about making a calculated, thoughtful choice.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm thinking about that as the the risk versus bravery on the short term versus long term and and thinking about objectives holistically and thinking about incentives holistically.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said at the beginning, spending more time to think about the actual problem you're trying to solve.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Which is a conversation around bravery or risk, right?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you just jump into one campaign after another after another, like literally if it's 30 well, I mean you're at you're at about 10 campaigns a year, probably.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Easy, yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you're following that that 30-day or 35-day cycle that that David Tiltman talks about.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go, okay, well, we're not doing 30, like all those, we're gonna cut it in half.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: What does that do?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like how that's it sounds risky, but then it actually might be brave to think about it differently that way.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to go through all the different calculations to figure out why that makes sense and then build a a conversation around that.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: But even something as simple as that is to say we're not doing 30-day campaigns anymore.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna yeah, we're gonna cut it by half, and we're instead of doing 30-day campaigns, we're gonna do 60-day campaigns, but we're gonna tr we're gonna put them in market in a way that it seems like we're always there.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we get to a point where a campaign is every 30 days?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think wasn't it one of our sharp cuts where we talked about like the most education and marketing that we've seen or organization been trained on has been trained by the Googles and the Facebooks of the world.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Which means we've gone down this short-term path that we feel like creative needs to be recycled every 30 days because your CTR dropped.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, actually the whole one-to-one thing.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you get one-to-one, then why would you ever Because in a fleeting moment, you want the right message for the right person.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you start producing more and more content to get more and more at bats, I guess, is the thought.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Around when people are gonna buy and try and guess the optimal time to do that.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then the optimal message to convert them.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you it forces you down.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: It probably is.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder, like, because the like madmen days.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what the campaign duration was.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if there's a way to figure that out, but that would be interesting to know that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: We could probably just ask a good friend, Claude, or someone.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Claude is the best.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love that guy.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: He's so good.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's got all the right answers at the right times.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: He makes me feel so smart.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, just one last thing on the bravery versus risk.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was an interesting because we had Terry O'Reilly's, like, you know, we're talking about a campaign should make your hands feel sweaty or make your hands sweat a little bit.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then we had Karen from Rethink come on, and she talked about, well, actually, maybe shouldn't be that way.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a sense of you need to be really calculated.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you're confident going in with anything that you're doing.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have Tracy here talking about bravery versus risk.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it I think she she's talking the same way about it, the same way Karen was.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: That, you know, risk is careless, bravery is calculated.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I love having that distinction that you you feel confident with the decision because there's a lot of data or insights to support that that it should make you feel brave and and confident going in.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I thought that was uh it's funny that we've had three different guests almost kind of approach it a little bit differently, even though I know what Terry was trying to say with that.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Which almost I get it too.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like it, I think, yeah, I get it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I totally get that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I think he I think he's right, but I think how you deliver it is what What Karen was saying.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't want to freak people out because then you get a fight or flight and you just see me either get punched in the face or somebody's going to run out the room.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we don't want that.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's one other thing that Tracy mentioned about the insight versus statement of fact, where if you have a really great insight, people everywhere are going to get it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it made me just think about the Byron Sharp thing.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that we when we were talking to Byron Sharp, he talked about how businesses are rewarded for doing for serving a lot of people.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of businesses can make money by serving a few people, but you get really rewarded if you serve many, many, many more people, like millions and millions of people.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think about that a lot because like you know, for lack of a better example, Apple or pick any brand, they build the product once and then they sell it many times.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the product itself isn't mass customized to every single individual person.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's shapes and sizes, maybe like a size curve if you're talking about retail.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's some different features that are out there.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: But like if if the product works that way, why would the marketing not work that way?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like why I keep I'm I don't know why I'm so obsessed about this.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the incentives ultimately, like you were saying before, the channel incentives.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you were so.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: You got so obsessed about one-to-one and having to make like everything supposedly more relevant because it's for a specific person.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: But in reality, if you have a good insight and everyone gets it, like that's that truth part, then why would you build eight million versions?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or seven billion versions if there's seven billion people on the planet.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, Mark, we're gonna do something a little bit different here.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So bear with me.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna call we're gonna call this like the quickfire postpod.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is where innovation happens right here, V.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Real time, right time.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to I want you to tell me what is the best code that came out of that conversation that we had.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me, it it's that if you have an amazing insight, it will be global.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: You uh you can't be a little bit brave.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Gotta go all the way.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, that's a good point.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: What's your most surprising insight?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean for me, I I would say it's that thing around that it's a system.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Effectiveness is a system.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you can design for it.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: The four pillars are great.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it was something else that she said, and we talked to oh, who was it that we talked from the FEs with it last year or two?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't forget, I don't remember the gentleman's name.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: But anyways, the world's most effective brands often have the longest agency relationships.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, right.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I remember we talked about that with Andrew as well.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're right.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: From System One.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's in some of their reporting, but yeah, I don't remember.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Most practical takeaway, V.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Translate marketing to business language before presenting it internally.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's actually a good one.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Matt.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would go Ditto, me too.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: What's the biggest challenge for marketers?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Translating marketing into business language before presenting it internally.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ding, ding, ding, ding.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I would say I would probably add to that.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are we spending too much time optimizing tactics and not enough time just you know working on improving the strategy?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what's the the big question that's worth debating for you from your perspective?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is effectiveness primarily a measurement problem or a leadership problem?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: That could be a sharp cut, by the way.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's totally a sharp cut.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: The answer is yes.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I like that one a lot.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is a sharp cut coming.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: That yeah, I think so.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have one there.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, Tracy, if you're listening, thanks so much for uh for your time at Cannes.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Genuinely enjoyed our conversation.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, for everybody else.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for keeping us.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for keeping us in your ears.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're twit, we're doing it at the same time again.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, we gotta get better at this.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: You go and then I'll go.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for keeping us in your ears.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Stay sharp, everyone.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.