Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / 10 Million Americans’ Healthcare Behind the Scenes

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10 Million Americans’ Healthcare Behind the Scenes · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
Welcome to AI for Founders. I'm Ryan Estes.
0:02
Today's episode starts with the problem almost every founder
0:05
fears. What happens when the system
0:07
you're trying to disrupt is so big, so regulated, and so
0:10
politically volatile that one election can flip your entire
0:14
business model overnight? That's the world my guest lives
0:17
in and somehow thrives in. I'm talking to Eugene Sayen,
0:22
founder and CEO of Sofian, a 25 year old startup that processes
0:27
$20 billion in premiums, powers 30 million enrollments, and
0:30
delivers affordable healthcare access to 10 million Americans,
0:35
all while building his own AI infrastructure using agentic
0:38
systems with 0 hallucination tolerance.
0:41
If you're a founder, operator, or AI obsessed builder who wants
0:45
to understand how to scale inside complexity, leverage AI
0:49
responsibly, and build a company that can survive political
0:52
headwinds, economic shocks, and massive technical stakes, this
0:56
conversation is for you. You're going to learn how Soft
0:59
The End uses agentic AI plus human in the loop workflows to
1:02
reach 99.9999999% accuracy and why designing for a problem 10
1:09
years in the future is their secret weapon.
1:11
And OU Gene bootstrapped a healthcare giant by thinking
1:14
like an outsider and an immigrant with something to
1:17
prove. This episode is high energy,
1:20
full of insight, and packed with big numbers.
1:22
Let's dive in now. If you're building with AI and
1:24
want to stay ahead of the curve without drowning in hype,
1:27
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3:01
flight. Eugene, welcome to this.
3:02
Welcome to this. So much for joining me.
3:05
Great to be here with you, Ryan. My pleasure.
3:09
Can't wait to learn about your your company, which you describe
3:11
as a startup 25 years in the making, which I love that that's
3:15
that's the positive energy. I'm or before we get into it,
3:18
what LLLLM right now and kind of for what reason?
3:22
What reason? OK, absolutely.
3:25
Obviously we have pretty much in the process of evaluating every
3:30
foundational LLMS from all the Model O Llamas to Deep Sake to
3:35
Quinn and even the even the open AIS, open source version of
3:41
LLMS. So we obviously leverage these
3:44
LLMS being that we are a healthcare specific organization
3:48
and with access to a lot of Phi data.
3:52
This is one of the main reasons why we built our own AI
3:55
infrastructure and AI platforms. So we do the things such as fine
4:02
tuning and distillation and that obviously a lot of advanced regs
4:07
and retrieval, augmented generations that basically
4:11
leverages the the power of open source LLMS combined with
4:17
software and proprietary data and processes.
4:21
Amazing. OK.
4:22
So that's a pretty technical approach to LLMS, what you're
4:25
doing with Softheon, which is virtual.
4:28
I get the name right. Did I get it right?
4:29
You got or. That's right, perfect.
4:31
Softheon.com is the website. All right.
4:35
OK. So explain to me the core of the
4:37
business and then maybe bridge that with how maybe you're
4:41
integrating LLMS and some of the the AI tools into the, the, the
4:45
product itself. Absolutely.
4:49
You know, so Healthcare is something that we feel everyone
4:56
deserves just like clean air and clean water.
4:59
In fact, often we refer Healthcare is a precious,
5:02
another form of precious commodity.
5:05
But just like clean air, clean water, it takes effort to keep
5:09
the air clean and keep the water clean.
5:11
So in our context is that basically we believe that
5:14
Healthcare is a right that everyone should have access to,
5:18
but also obviously in the framework of access is one
5:21
thing, but affordability is another thing.
5:24
So I'm proud to say that for well over now a decade, S Diane
5:28
has been one of those trusted partners to those health
5:32
insurance organization. His mission is to serve the in
5:37
particular what we now know as an ACA Affordable Care Act,
5:41
Obamacare or even Medicare and Medicaid.
5:44
So our technology makes the possibility of serving these
5:50
vulnerable populations by these wonderful health insurance
5:54
companies and partners that we have been working with now well
5:57
over a decade. So today I'm proud to say that
6:01
nearly 10 million Americans use our technology in some shape or
6:07
form. They may not know exactly, you
6:10
know, software name or brands all together because we are the
6:13
white label platform that's used by these insurance companies.
6:18
But 10 + 1,000,000 Americans, they receive their affordable
6:22
healthcare, their medications, access to their doctors and the
6:27
other facilities as they need it, if they need it, using the
6:30
software and power technologies provided by a cloud enhanced by
6:35
LM and AI's and other means. So we're a technology company
6:40
providing great services. We believe that to our partners
6:44
and the millions of Americans. Incredible, incredible.
6:48
Congratulations and thank you. I should say, you know, what you
6:52
said sounds kind of like a common sense to me that
6:54
everyone's deserved of healthcare, but boy, you're an
6:56
American now off everybody. I am and and to make it matters
7:02
even more, I will call. Hopefully this resonates with
7:05
your audience all together too. You know, being a Turkish
7:08
immigrant, I came to this country and I always remind
7:11
myself and my my team in here that this is our way of serving
7:14
our country. You know, some people go to
7:16
armies and become teachers and doctors as the as the nerds, as
7:21
the data scientists and computer scientists.
7:23
This is our way of serving our our communities and our country.
7:27
Well, thank goodness they still need the nerds.
7:29
So I have a career. It works, it works cool.
7:33
So are are the end users or subscribers of healthcare?
7:37
Is that your customer? Who exactly is your customer?
7:40
So our customers if you think about it, we are AB to B to C
7:44
and so we are that little, little we're the the middle B in
7:47
the conversations. If you see especially with a
7:50
program like Affordable Care Act, ACA or Medicare, as you
7:55
know these are direct to consumer or individual health
7:59
insurance products and services that are being marketed to those
8:03
certain certain population. In the case of ACA, these are
8:07
the individuals are not having enough income.
8:11
So they are in the ballpark of, you know, 100% to 400%.
8:15
Now that number has been changing up and down depending
8:18
upon who's in the White House. But the federal power Day level
8:21
determines exactly who is eligible to purchase an
8:24
insurance through quote UN quote, Affordable Care Act in a
8:28
similar fashion, and Medicare, anyone over 65 years old.
8:33
So basically those are the individuals when they go out and
8:36
they look for health insurance for themselves and for their
8:39
families, they will use a technology and products provided
8:45
by self Dion White label branded as our health insurance
8:50
partners. This is what we call it AB to B
8:53
to C. So using our technology, our
8:56
HealthPartners, our health insurance companies able to
8:59
provide their products and services to millions of
9:02
individuals. Yeah.
9:05
Is it, is it largely what you're taking care of for the, the B to
9:09
B portion, kind of the compliance, the kind of
9:12
government regulatory bodies and those kind of things?
9:15
Yeah. So we focus around three major
9:19
pillars in terms of our product and value statements, as we call
9:22
them in the value proposition #1 is consumer engagement.
9:27
We view them as a really a WellCare system, not a sick care
9:32
system. Our goal is to keep the
9:34
consumers, engage them as early as possible and keep them
9:37
healthy. So our consumer engagement
9:39
platform in a way empowers those individuals to make the right
9:43
decision. They are experience on buying a
9:47
health insurance is no different than what you see in Kayak or
9:51
Expedia or or or or any other consumer driven e-commerce
9:56
platform, almost like an Amazon, like an experience.
10:00
That's our consumer engagement platform.
10:02
The next part of our services around consumer analytics.
10:07
Our goal is to make sure that these individuals, they stay
10:10
with the health plans as long as they could.
10:13
Remember as an insurance company, you want to retain
10:17
those members. In healthcare in the US in
10:20
particular, there is a this one bizarre thing that everybody has
10:23
to go out and buy insurance on an annual basis.
10:27
So in fact, we are right in the middle of what we call the open
10:31
enrollment. Yeah, it's a little, little
10:33
crazy concept if you compare it, I guess.
10:36
Imagine if Amazon require you to re enroll to Prime every year or
10:41
Netflix require you to come back and resubscribe to their
10:44
services every year. So anyway, consumer analytics,
10:48
we provide capabilities to our partners to to retain those
10:52
memberships. And the third part is about
10:55
consumer, we call it a persuasion or consumer nudging.
11:00
We are the platform responsible of generating in excess of
11:04
almost close to 10 million invoices or notices.
11:08
So a compliance part you mentioned, we send those
11:11
documents to our customers, our members along the way keeping
11:16
them informed and engaged about health and Wellness, health and
11:19
well-being. So our capabilities, it really
11:22
spans across multiple, multiple facets, but those are the three
11:25
consumer engagement, consumer analytics and consumer education
11:31
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think. Get it amazing, you know, and
14:03
because you know, healthcare in America is completely insane.
14:11
It's very difficult. And and also for some reason
14:13
it's tied to the the, the political tides, you know.
14:17
So do you ever find yourself kind of at the whim of whoever
14:20
is happens to be in office? How does kind of the the
14:22
political, political winds blowing in America, in fact,
14:27
what you're doing? Well, it's like the sailing
14:31
analogy, right? You know, I can't control the
14:34
wind, I can't control the weather.
14:36
What I can only do is adjust my sails and keep sailing, right?
14:40
That is the analogy. I guess that's the one advice I
14:43
know you mentioned about your audience being a lot of the
14:45
entrepreneurs. It's this is the life of an
14:48
entrepreneur. It's your job is to basically,
14:51
you know, stay core to your mission, stay core to your
14:53
capabilities. Kind of define your quote UN
14:57
quote itchy guy, right? What are you good at it, what
14:59
the world needs and if you are able to really, you know, make a
15:04
living out of it if you will. So yes, unfortunately this is a
15:10
government sponsored health plan that's in health insurance
15:13
programs. So we have to, we cannot ignore
15:15
the fact that the political kind of the rhetoric, every now and
15:19
then it will be either a tailwind or a headwind situation
15:22
for a company like us. But that's also the in the long
15:26
run that keeps us, so to speak, core to our mission.
15:32
One of my favorite books is Simon Sinek's in there's a book
15:35
called Infinite game. So if you think about it as an
15:38
entrepreneur, we're playing an infinite game in the context of
15:42
it that in other words, that in fact, the infinite game, there's
15:45
no big in time and end time. There's not even a players,
15:48
there's not even a field. It's a game of the last man
15:51
standing. So our goal is that because of
15:54
our mission, because of our passion, we continue to invest,
15:58
we continue to stay in the game. And through that process, I have
16:02
to say that I'm proud to say that you're one of those few
16:04
companies now being trusted by hundreds of health plans as far
16:09
as their ability to serve their population.
16:12
So yeah, policies is a big thing.
16:14
Obviously, economy is a big part of a healthcare.
16:16
Healthcare is 18%, nearly 20% of our GDP, where the United
16:21
States, as you know, spends well over $4 trillion in an
16:24
annualized basis. It's far more than, you know,
16:28
the next 10 companies combined perhaps.
16:31
And yet the outcomes is not even comparable to the rest of us.
16:35
So we are doing certain things right.
16:37
Our goal is to find out exactly the areas that were don't do
16:40
well, how can we improve? How can we make the system
16:43
better? So yeah, you have to learn to
16:45
play within that political guardrails, if you will, so that
16:49
we don't take sides, we don't work with one sider.
16:52
We have to be always bipartisan because ultimately our goal is
16:56
to really care for those individuals.
16:58
They don't really care about who's sitting in the White
17:00
House. They just want to know if they
17:02
have access to care if they can get their medication regardless
17:06
of their political affiliation. Beautiful.
17:09
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think you're
17:12
doing a lot right. I believe, correct me if I'm
17:14
wrong, You you were named Times World's Time Magazine's world's
17:18
top health tech companies of 2025, which is an unbelievable
17:23
accomplishment. Congratulations.
17:24
And, you know, hang on this. Hang on the point a little bit.
17:27
Point a little bit the, the, the, the transient lately,
17:30
lately, I should say this compliance with with, with, with
17:35
the healthcare system and just legislation and just typically
17:39
takes a long time. The last couple of presidents
17:42
are throwing executive orders out there, you know, like
17:45
ordering lunch. I mean how much credence do you
17:48
have to give the executive orders and how fast can you
17:51
change if necessary? That is something that obviously
17:58
we have to be in the cutting edge of those changes all
18:01
together. And to be frank with you, one of
18:03
the reason that I'm proud to say that that we were able to kind
18:08
of see this opportunity and and jump in it, if you will, because
18:14
of our some of our core competencies and capabilities.
18:19
If I'm if at the, at the, at the, at the risk of shameless
18:24
plugins, if you will, back in 1998 actually I filed a patent
18:28
about how to use AI to streamline enterprise
18:31
applications using agentic frameworks.
18:34
And in that's the genesis of that's the DNA of Softeon for
18:37
well over 25 years. So combined with that agility
18:42
and the cutting edge technology, we were able to deliver a very
18:46
unique product in the healthcare space.
18:49
In full transparency, I have no experience in healthcare.
18:51
I never worked for a health insurance company.
18:54
I never, I never did my what my customers are doing today, what
18:58
our partners are doing today, what we have done is basically
19:03
one way call it outside of the box thinking because we didn't
19:07
design a system with some legacy, some level of incumbency
19:11
if you will. That kind of a free thinking,
19:14
that kind of a first principle thinking that really set
19:18
Softiana apart from most of our competitors in the landscape.
19:22
So we in fact welcome these rapid agile changes mandated by
19:29
executive branch and sometimes by the legislative branch house
19:33
on the Senate because those changes has to be replicated and
19:37
has to made available. Being that Healthcare is such a
19:40
compliance driven industry in a way that gave us an opportunity
19:44
to really demonstrate what our core capabilities are.
19:47
So as an entrepreneur, one of my always my guidance to all my
19:53
colleagues, you know, we are here to solve the problem five
19:57
year, 10 years down the road. So when we got into ACA in 20.6,
20:02
actually that wasn't ACA. Back then you used to call the
20:05
Romneycare, and I'm proud to say that I was part of that
20:08
initiative up in Massachusetts where Governor Romney teamed up
20:12
with Senator Ted Kennedy, created the foundation of this
20:16
call. Health insurance exchanges and
20:19
that later on became a model that now we implemented across
20:22
the nation. So I have been in that industry,
20:26
I've been in that problem solving mind for now nearly two
20:29
decades. And we always thought is that we
20:36
need to solve the problem five years, 10 years down the road.
20:39
So we were never quote UN quote in an impulse decision making
20:44
more opportunistic thinking to solving today's problem.
20:47
Our goal is always here. We're always thinking about what
20:51
is the problem is gonna be in in five year, 10 year from now and
20:55
what can we do to solve that problem starting today.
20:59
It's a problem gonna be in 10 years.
21:03
I I have a lot of prophecies. I'm happy to, you know, we can
21:06
indulge in those conversations and in tying to the your first
21:10
question about AII think the AI is going to be something that I
21:14
think we all have to take a note and it will, if not already is
21:21
gonna be changing and disrupting every industry, including
21:26
healthcare in a major way. 100% and we'll come back to that,
21:30
we'll put a pin in that for a second.
21:32
But I, I did want to kind of dive in because you mentioned
21:34
something I wanted to mention, which is that, you know what we
21:37
call AI. You've been, you've been at the
21:39
foundational level of that for a long time, whether it's machine
21:43
learning, you know, now kind of developing kind of an agentic AI
21:46
plus human in the loop compliance.
21:49
What do you think? What distinguishes the approach
21:54
as opposed to there there of health tech people that are just
21:57
trying Apple and AI? Yeah.
22:02
I think just like as some of your audience might be really
22:06
familiar with it, what's called a famous the Gartner hype cycle.
22:10
And I really think that right now AI in general, if not
22:13
definitely LLM is going through its own hype cycle and hype
22:16
cycle is actually the the genesis of the hype cycle is a,
22:21
a what's called a Dunning Kroger effect.
22:24
In other words, that there is a, there is a period that any
22:27
technology, we'll go through this, it's called a peak of
22:31
stupidity, meaning that AI is an answer to every one of our
22:34
problems and it's gonna, it's gonna cure anything.
22:36
It's a panacea. But then soon you realize that
22:42
AI needs a lot of help. So there is an there is an
22:46
impulse activity or impulse thinking about implementing AI
22:49
and try to bring an LLM all of a sudden that your enterprise is
22:53
gonna be all run by agents and AI's all together too.
22:57
Well, for some industries that might be the case, but that's
23:01
definitely not the case for healthcare as you just
23:04
mentioned. I use this analogy all the time
23:07
in the United States. Every day there are 17,017
23:13
thousand commercial flights take off.
23:17
Think about TSA or in general our air traffic controllers has
23:21
a 99% accuracy that's gonna require basically says we gotta
23:27
have 170 plane crashes a day. That's 1%.
23:33
Yeah, you can't have one. Percent, 1% error margins.
23:37
So we in fact here when we talk about it, I said we have to be
23:40
even better than air traffic. We have to have a 99.99999%
23:44
accuracy. So while AI is going through his
23:47
own height cycle, his own maturity, but I think what
23:51
really makes something unique in the space that a our 20 plus
23:56
years of legacy, the operating and an agentic framework.
23:59
Now full transparency, we did not put the AI as an appendix
24:03
that I conversation because that was not the most popular thing
24:07
to say or do 5-10 years ago until the advent of ChatGPT.
24:12
But still using that rich legacy, we have created an
24:17
environment that for instance, our average customer, average
24:21
customers using 1300 agentic processes, they are digital
24:31
workers working 24/7. So the answer to your question,
24:36
short answer, our ability to apply AI in a meaningful,
24:41
ethical, purposeful and a human in the loop concept.
24:46
You just brought them up there too with traceability and order
24:50
ability. Those are the attributes I will
24:53
say makes our technology, our product and solutions different
24:58
than what's on the marketplace today.
25:01
And granted there's a new technology and new solutions
25:04
being covered on the market everyday.
25:05
And like as I said, we are now bringing LLM into our
25:09
technologies. We have just released a couple
25:12
of major feature with production usage of LLM with 0
25:17
hallucination. Remember, we have to be we're
25:20
aiming for 100% accuracy. We cannot tolerate any
25:24
hallucination in any one of our agentic processes or any one of
25:29
our interfaces. You know, it's, it's incredible,
25:33
Yeah, the, the scale that you work at and the margin of error
25:36
being so slim. I think a lot of listeners of
25:39
this podcast, you know, our leaders, our founders, our CEOs,
25:42
they're leading A-Team. They want to have a similar
25:45
level of execution, but they don't have, they don't have any
25:50
repercussions or, or error now. I mean just kind of like just
25:54
you're talking about 10 million invoices, $20 billion in
25:58
premiums, 30 million enrollments, What is kind of an
26:02
under appreciated operational challenge you've learned, you've
26:06
learned in kind of large volumes like this.
26:12
I will. In fact, you know, I don't know.
26:15
I don't want to talk in negative context anything else, right?
26:18
I mean, anyone who's working, especially in the healthcare, in
26:22
the in general about the health insurance, right?
26:25
These are the one of the most committed, most hardworking
26:27
people. You know, most of the
26:29
colleagues, most of my friends that I have now over the years
26:32
now nearly two decades, they are really there to serve the people
26:36
who are in need of care, who are in need of medications and
26:39
everything else. Having said that, there is an
26:43
element of, I call it a dysfunction in the, in, in the
26:46
industry in general, for instance, that basically, you
26:50
know, fraud, waste and abuse is, is a rampant in, in insurance.
26:54
And we just talked about that, you know, $4 trillion and you
26:59
know, we go through this pendulum swings every now and
27:01
then. Obviously the current
27:02
administration is very keen on fraud, waste and abuse.
27:05
And, and, and so to six anywhere from 8 to 10%, maybe even 12%.
27:10
Even if we take a low part of that, let's say 10% of the the
27:14
fraud and then we're talking about $400 billion fraud in the
27:17
system, you know, we need to be able to put that money back into
27:21
the system so we can give access to those people who needs an
27:25
affordable health insurance, who needs an affordable medication
27:28
altogether too. So I think that the part about
27:31
healthcare, and this is really, I cannot emphasize how important
27:35
it is and how much I will personally appreciate it that
27:39
more companies are committed to entering into healthcare and
27:43
fixing this problem. Next thing a problem, by the
27:47
way, not just through medication.
27:49
There is so much we can do. I'll give you 1 anecdotal
27:52
experience. During the COVID, I, like
27:57
everybody else, started working from home.
28:00
I've gained a lot of weight and I became diabetic.
28:06
Really, here I am. I'm.
28:07
I'm otherwise I'm really. I thought I was in great shape.
28:11
But then once my doctor told me and I said I will, I will refuse
28:15
to be on medication and I'm gonna change my eating habits.
28:20
I'm gonna start working out everything else.
28:23
Proud to say that. Fast forward several years
28:25
later, my A1C is down from literally 10 down to now 6.
28:31
All right, I lost about nearly 40 lbs.
28:35
All right. All right, So the solution is
28:39
not the medication all the time. There is other solutions
28:43
available on the markets like education, like empowerment,
28:48
like incentivizing and encouragements and many other
28:52
things. So, you know, as we learn more
28:54
and more about it, I think 1 area in fact where I discover a
28:57
lot more of the AI is that we are learning about human
29:01
biology, we're learning about genetics.
29:03
And now when transitioning into the epigenetics, we're getting
29:07
into the pharmacogenomics, the personalized medication.
29:11
So there are going to be a lot of opportunities for us to
29:13
really enter into the, this new era where the AI is going to
29:18
create this wonderful ways and new ways to care and, and, and
29:24
basically extend the human longevity.
29:26
This is a big topic, as you know, amongst there's going to
29:29
be a whole industry is being formed just on the topic of
29:33
longevity. You know, everybody's these
29:35
days, if nothing else in Silicon Valley is talking about that
29:38
because that's like seems like they that's the Holy Grail of
29:42
technology combined with, with with, with humanity.
29:46
So we'll see. That's another topic for me,
29:48
another podcast. Good bridge to get to the future
29:51
conversation and we'll come back to the past yes, but you know,
29:55
there there. One of the downsides of AI I've
29:58
spoken to with doctors is as we move into a world where AI will
30:02
be doing a lot more diagnostics and a lot preventative and kind
30:07
of take over a lot of the testing that doctors actually
30:10
are finding some kind of the finding liability of getting a
30:15
lot of data, a lot of information from AIA lot of data
30:18
point. They don't make it the proper
30:21
proper diagnosis. We can actually like be risking
30:23
their their practice because if they if they're not prescribing
30:27
the right medication in time, fine.
30:29
Do you see kind of a constantly right now with now the medical
30:32
in this AI in general? Absolutely.
30:37
I think these are going to be the quote UN quote adverse
30:40
effect of like anytime again, back to the technology.
30:44
Anytime any technology like AI gets introduced to a society in
30:48
general, I think there's gonna be a lot of collateral damages.
30:53
You just mentioned about that kind of again, This is why we
30:56
are so, so careful around the the aspect of hallucination.
31:00
If you think about AI today, a ChatGPT, you know, was born in
31:05
at least from a year old public point of view was born in 2019.
31:09
So by that standard, it's only 5 years old, six year old,
31:12
basically a pre-K, you know, child, if you will.
31:17
Now it's growing really, really fast.
31:19
It's learning really, really fast that, you know, in 5-10
31:23
years when it becomes an adolescent, adolescent, you
31:27
know, as an adult, it's gonna start making really good
31:29
decision. But it's now we're going to go
31:32
through this teenager year, it's going to start hallucinating,
31:34
it's going to start making up stories and things of that
31:37
nature. So we need to understand they
31:41
where AI is in this journey, the life cycle, you know, what
31:45
damage can it cause can create the hallucination.
31:50
I think the we're also looking to do, you know, we haven't even
31:54
discussed about the how the AIS could become a backdoor to your
31:58
cybersecurity. You know, there are LLM models
32:01
are being thrown left and right and, and they're all black
32:05
boxes. You don't really understand
32:06
what's in that LLM. Now that LLM could be a malware
32:10
that people actually downloading and putting in their computers
32:14
without any guardrails. So there's, there's so many I
32:18
don't want to give, I don't want to give some ideas to your
32:20
audience right now too. But but that's the ethical side.
32:23
That's the responsible side of AI.
32:25
So I am proud to say that and is one of those organization, we
32:30
are thinking of those problems 10 year down the road and we are
32:34
finding a solution, working on a solution today because these are
32:40
live examples we've seen in other type of implementation.
32:44
Let it be you know what e-mail introduced, what e-mail became a
32:48
major, you know fraud tool capability for so many different
32:52
people. So I think we're going to start
32:54
seeing a lot more unfortunately. So we need to make sure that we
32:57
got the right guardrails once again and right controls in
33:01
place. And that's why the things like
33:03
human in the loop is very, very important and so many other.
33:06
So I agree with you. There's going to be some, some
33:09
damages are going to be caused. And hopefully that's not going
33:12
to slow us down in our progress because I can easily see that
33:18
that's being so much quote, UN quote backlash that's going to
33:21
now stop us in our tracks of progress.
33:24
Because this is a, you mentioned about an arm race.
33:27
This is another form of an arm race and in this case, in fact
33:31
maybe a farm race in between US and China and US and other
33:34
counts of this is a matter of national security.
33:38
We have to do something. If we don't do something, we are
33:42
going to be left behind. And we can't let that happen
33:45
because the growth is going to accelerate the exponential
33:50
growth, especially over the next several years as AI becomes more
33:55
and more reliable and more and more capable.
33:59
We are going to reach a moment of this escape velocity.
34:03
Yeah, we'll talk more about that too, maybe some other time.
34:06
You bet, you bet well, and I like your example of, you know,
34:10
your weight loss journey and congratulations, you look great.
34:12
I mean, you look. Super.
34:13
Thank you. Appreciate it. 40 lbs Amazing.
34:16
You have to tell me your secrets off there.
34:19
But you know, as opposed to like there's always there's like the
34:21
two sides of the coin, You know, one side, there's like all these
34:24
challenges that AI presents. The other side is all the
34:26
benefits that it, it creates. And maybe it's similar to
34:29
similar to your experience where as AI progresses personally in
34:32
the medical field, like you have a lot more accuracy and the
34:37
dosage of additional options become an option.
34:41
Often when you have time with your physician.
34:43
It's just that you have sometimes your position because
34:46
if you're anything like me, I think my doctor, 12 here, he's
34:49
like trying to get through it, through it, you know, because
34:53
they have so many commitments. But then the relationship doctor
34:56
becomes maybe more shamanism, more shamanism where they're
34:59
much more concerned about how you're feeling.
35:01
And maybe you need words of encouragement.
35:02
Maybe this is an optional medication.
35:04
If you can really be disciplined, how can we help you
35:07
feel that discipline and determination?
35:10
You know, so I think the role of the physician, you know, when
35:13
it's, when it's that's with all these tools can be very
35:16
beneficial and for the patients in the long term, which is the
35:19
psychologically logical problems.
35:22
Ryan Absolutely. I think it touched upon a
35:24
really, really exciting part that I feel that I'm, I'm living
35:28
it through. I remember, you know, reserving
35:31
and having a, having an appointment with my doctor five
35:34
years ago. I can tell you the appointments
35:36
that I have right now is based on it starts with my aura rings,
35:41
my nightly sleep cycles. It goes to my DCM continuous
35:46
glucose meter. It can measure my glucose down
35:48
to the minutes. Everything is uploaded to my
35:51
Apple Health and Apple Health integrated 1 EMR HR system.
35:55
It's in my doctor's hands within minutes.
35:58
So when we meet, we talk about my biomarkers.
36:02
We don't go through the usual plots anymore about how was your
36:05
weight? How were you feeling altogether
36:07
too, because he has a real time data, anything and everything
36:11
about me and I trust them for making the right decision and
36:16
he's been a fantastic guy and and I'm I'm proud to say that
36:19
when your doctors are younger than than I has become as I get
36:24
older all together, I have a deeper appreciation because they
36:26
are very much open minded for these new ways and new ideas and
36:31
moving forward. So eating from my again, my in
36:36
the importance of sleep, we start that conversation, you
36:39
know, we mention about my rent cycles and we go through how
36:42
much time that I'm, you know, spending my time on meditating
36:46
and not to mention, you know, my dopamine levels.
36:49
We talk about testosterone levels.
36:51
We are going to do my lab results literally line by line.
36:55
It's a engaging, meaningful conversation.
36:58
Rather than some superficial bureaucratic meetings that I
37:02
used to have with my doctors, now feel like, you know, they
37:05
know me better. I know them better.
37:07
Yeah, it's incredible. The the future is going to be
37:10
very interesting. Now I want to take it back.
37:13
We'll bounce around a little bit.
37:14
I want to take it back to the past and largely because you
37:18
have a amazing story now. You're from Istanbul, if I know
37:22
correctly, and basically began in electrical engineering, moved
37:26
towards computer science and then founded, bounced off the on
37:29
and you've never taken venture capital.
37:31
So it's a bootstrapped company. Bootstrap 25 year olds.
37:36
That's correct. So.
37:37
Full, full transparency, I did raise some money back in early
37:41
days of 199899 when the crazydaysof.com bubble, and I'm
37:46
proud to say that that's the last time that we raised money.
37:49
So since then it's been a bootstrap company growing
37:52
organically. Incredible.
37:55
And how do you think being a bootstrap company of your size
37:59
has influenced culture and just kind of the the day-to-day work
38:03
for for the team? I think that's a really, that's
38:06
a really important part. So being a being an organically
38:09
grown company, I will say one of the greatest, you know, one of
38:13
those things that pressure and privilege the pressure is I
38:17
don't have investors that I can tap into it for my round B&C and
38:21
DS, if you will, when I'm in a cash strapped situation.
38:25
So from that point on point of view, you learn to really live
38:29
your life, leave your organization and within the
38:31
budgets. So This is why we are very much
38:36
long term in anything and everything that we do here, let
38:40
it be product market fits or let it be ideas and everything else
38:44
as well as long term with the people.
38:48
And I'm proud to say that in fact, you can see from my
38:50
backdrop in here, I am actually located within the Stonebrook
38:53
University, which is one of the public facilities out of the
38:57
Stonerbrook University is the State University of New York
38:59
system altogether. And my office is in located
39:02
within the university. So I take great pride of working
39:06
with my colleagues in here who are PhDs and faculty members and
39:09
everything else. And I have to say that majority
39:12
of our engineers are also graduates of the universities.
39:16
So they start with something new in their lives and they never,
39:21
they, many of them did not, did not consider healthcare as an as
39:25
an industry They go after having said that, that contrarian view,
39:29
they are having a blast. And and I myself, I will say,
39:34
frankly speaking, in early days of South Beyond, I was like many
39:38
other entrepreneur, impatient. I want to get results.
39:41
I want to see results altogether too, you know, go, go, go, go,
39:45
go. Well, over time, over the years,
39:48
I became a lot more, I don't want to say mellow, but it's
39:51
more of a long term vision. So when something goes wrong,
39:55
when somebody make a mistake, we always to the point that we
39:58
celebrate the mistake because to me, we just learn, you know, one
40:03
more way not to do things, so to speak.
40:06
So kind of like Thomas Edison. Analogy, right?
40:09
I can tell you 1000 ways that the light bulb is not going to
40:11
go back. So every one of these
40:13
experiences is something that we celebrate, we bring in it to our
40:16
people. And I'm proud to say that I have
40:19
so many of my colleagues in here now over a decade fresh out of
40:23
college. They work a soft beyond and
40:25
haven't left us. So to me, that's a that's a
40:29
privilege. And that also tells you that
40:31
we're doing something really unique that keeps this brilliant
40:34
mind grounded with this organization and we keep
40:37
delivering better results. How many employees?
40:43
A little shy of 250 people. 450. 250. 250 and you guys are based
40:50
in New York City. We are based in Long Island, New
40:53
York, not exactly New York City. Somewhere in New York City and
40:57
Hamptons. Let's put it this way.
40:59
Nice place. Amazing what?
41:01
What do you think is a superpower you brought from
41:06
Istanbul to to the States, that is, that is informed the way you
41:11
do business? I have, I'll call it, I have two
41:15
superpowers. 1 is my curiosity. In all practice, I was always,
41:20
even when I was a little boy and I was always curious.
41:23
And I was curious about this wonderful country called the
41:25
United States. And I want to come here and I
41:27
want to experience the feeling. And then the second part is that
41:31
I part of the maybe limited mentality and part of the, you
41:36
know, being that someone from the other side of the pond, if
41:39
you will, I learned to live with this strength or the paranoia,
41:43
so to speak. Many people talk about, you
41:45
know, famous book about only the paranoia succeed by Andy Gross,
41:49
right? The famous, famous CEO of Intel.
41:52
You wrote them up there too. So the paranoia doesn't mean
41:55
that you're afraid of something about that.
41:57
But I am always conscious and alert in my environments.
42:00
So combined with the curiosity and that extra level of
42:04
alertness, I guess those are my superpowers.
42:07
Amazing. I love it.
42:09
What about being a New Yorker? Is there a superpower associated
42:12
with having a a tech company in New York?
42:15
Yeah, I know. I have to say that, you know, I
42:17
had the opportunity and privilege of traveling all
42:19
throughout the country, pretty much every state I've been to.
42:23
Something about New York is different, you know, I don't
42:25
know. It's the water, it's the air,
42:27
whatever that is. It's like a melting pot, right?
42:29
Even today, you go to New York City, you go from block to block
42:33
and you are might as well be in a different country So that that
42:37
that richness, that kind of constantly infusing you.
42:42
And then if you're in any part of the country, it's no big
42:45
deal. I can easily adapt, so to speak,
42:47
because I am so well conditioned in New York that I'm able to,
42:51
you know, integrate myself with the with the environments that
42:54
I'm in. And that gives me and an extra
42:58
comfort, say the least, that I'm not afraid.
43:00
Again, combined with the curiosity and, and, and, and,
43:03
and spatial awareness, it's really important.
43:06
Having said that, I always had a different wipe every time when I
43:09
go to Silicon Valley. That's a different place, you
43:12
know, I know has a lot of ups and downs there too.
43:14
But boy, I mean the, the, the, the richness of conversations in
43:19
Silicon Valley is is compared to nowhere else.
43:23
Yeah, very smart. A lot of a lot of smart people.
43:28
It's still, you know that to me it's like still the gold rush.
43:31
The people are going there, but not for gold rush maybe.
43:34
But there is always something to rush in California and always
43:38
attracts the best and the brilliant people.
43:40
It's crazy that may sound, but they are creating the future.
43:44
As I said it. You know, one way to also
43:46
paraphrase it, we are working on a problem five year, 10 year
43:50
down the road. They are always solving problems
43:53
from 10 years down the road. In the process they are creating
43:57
the future for all of us to learn and adapt.
43:59
So in a way we are basically are a chronicle, dear imaginations
44:05
and going back 5101520 years ago.
44:09
I mean, look what Steve Jobs has done it.
44:11
Look what you know. Google has done what what
44:14
Microsoft and everybody else has always been very, very exciting.
44:17
I always have a great time when I see my friends in the in the
44:21
West Coast. Incredible.
44:23
All right. We're about at that time we were
44:25
going to the lightning round. Are you ready for the Lightning
44:27
Round? I am ready, Ryan.
44:30
Let's go. So 25 years in business largely
44:35
strapped, we're not going to count something from 1998.
44:39
A lot of our other rounds just high school.
44:43
High school, so I pay my dues. That was not a fun experience, I
44:46
will tell you that much. I wish that never happened.
44:49
The Y2K era, yes. Indeed. 250 employees, Are you
44:53
comfortable talking about what the annual revenue is for the
44:57
company? Yeah.
44:58
I mean, we, we are, let's put it this way, we are, we are, we are
45:03
aiming for $1,000,000 revenue per employee rates.
45:06
Let's put it this way. That's that's what we're going
45:08
for. Yeah, that's, that's pretty darn
45:11
good. If if you're looking into the
45:14
next 12 months, I know you're, you're planning 5 to 10 years
45:18
down the down the clip from a visionary perspective, but what
45:22
really is exciting about the next 12 months?
45:27
We are basically are back to our sailing analogy of the headwind,
45:33
tailwind situation. One thing that current
45:35
administration is really pushing hard is that creating that
45:39
transparency in healthcare, letting patient talk to their
45:43
doctors just like the way I was. And I think that's going to
45:47
create a lot of opportunities for organization like Soft
45:50
beyond where we are in the information logistics.
45:53
We are making sure that our members are experienced and
45:56
knowledgeable about their health and Wellness.
45:59
So I think we're going to start seeing a rapid, more rapid
46:03
adoption of consumer directed healthcare where people are
46:07
going to view their healthcare just as they are engaged with
46:11
their retirements. And four O 1 KS, there is this
46:14
thing called HRA counts or ICRA individual coverage for health
46:18
reimbursement. This is a new paradigm, new
46:21
concept that basically allows employers to make defined
46:27
contributions just like 4 O 1K for employees to go out and buy
46:32
the health insurance that they need, very much like buying the
46:35
mutual funds that they need is in aligned with your retirement
46:39
goals. So we're seeing a lot of that
46:42
financial aspect. The other aspect, the AIAI is
46:46
gonna come stronger and stronger.
46:50
We are gonna see a better engagement.
46:52
Consumer analytics, we talk about that now AI can detect
46:55
anomalies, anomalies in my health and Wellness, in my
46:59
biomarkers. And we're gonna be able to see
47:02
more real time care, real time engagements, being the
47:08
healthcare providers and the patients and doctors.
47:11
And thirdly, I think we're going to get into the rapid
47:15
acceleration of personalized medication, personalized
47:18
medicine, pharmacogenomics, the discovery of the new genes,
47:23
discovery of new epigenetics, of turning on and off the genes.
47:29
That's going to create exciting new opportunities, especially in
47:32
the areas like cancers and others.
47:34
And these are going to be very, very difficult diseases.
47:37
As you know, the reason is because cancer is a very
47:40
personalized disease. It's a function of your body's
47:44
immune system is not really reacting with the rest of the
47:47
things happening in here. So I think we're going to start
47:49
seeing these three major impacts of you know, financial impacts
47:54
the the thinking engagement and then finally the curations or
47:58
medication aspect. Amazing.
48:01
Yeah. I just have a fantasy that my
48:02
personalized medicine would be recommended, like beer and
48:05
pizza. I'd be like, oh, thank God, I've
48:09
been doing that for a long time. That that.
48:12
Might not be far, far fetched, Ryan.
48:14
I think that we are really, really rapidly approaching those
48:17
things. I mean, even today, right?
48:18
I don't know how much you use either Gemini or ChatGPT.
48:22
I'm at a point that ChatGPT pretty much knows everything
48:24
that I'm doing in here too in terms of our personal things and
48:27
our internal agents. And we call that Hal.
48:31
I'll, I'll have a different conversation.
48:32
You know, the very famous hell, I cannot do that.
48:35
And the reason we call our AI agents hell, because they can
48:40
turn back on us if we don't treat them well, if we don't
48:43
manage them well. So that's the the always that
48:46
constant reminder that this is a really, really, really important
48:49
technology. We got to make sure that we are
48:51
always in control. Amazing.
48:54
What's the end game for Softeon? Are you considering like
48:57
acquiring new companies, new sectors, new sectors, new
49:00
products, going IPO? Yeah.
49:02
Is there an opportunity for another company to to acquire
49:05
something, do something bigger, Whatever is your goal for the
49:08
company? So on a personal level, I'll say
49:13
that you know, I am. I am too young to retire, too
49:17
old to restart. So I have a few more years left
49:20
in me and maybe thanks to modern medicine that I will have and
49:23
maybe maybe another maybe another decade ahead of me.
49:26
I don't know how it goes, but the goal really is that we don't
49:29
have an end game. And this is one thing that I'm
49:31
really proud of it. We want to deal what's right for
49:33
our customers, what's right for our members, what's right for
49:36
our employees altogether too. I'm having a great time.
49:40
You know, we are investing in a lot of companies.
49:43
I'm proud to say that you know, we are we have a corporate
49:46
venture fund. I have a one good friends that I
49:49
have been, you know, privilege to really know him better.
49:52
And then we got to work. His name is Andy Slavitt,
49:55
someone that I know that your audience may know him really
49:58
well. You know, he now has this thing
50:01
called Town Hall Ventures and he just like us, his mission is to
50:06
really create technology and foster innovation for serving
50:12
those people who are in need. So we have a great collaboration
50:15
with Town Hall Ventures and we work with few other private
50:18
equity companies as a, as an LP to these organizations.
50:22
And we want to keep investing in in their future.
50:25
And and that kind of in a way comes back to us because we want
50:29
to create what we call this a soft beyond Habitat.
50:32
Our vision the next five years keep enriching the Soft Beyond
50:36
Habitat, either organically new product and services.
50:39
And we also welcome other partners, other companies who
50:43
want to join our habitat so jointly we can create this rich
50:48
ecosystem to care for millions of millions of Americans.
50:53
Incredible. Now too old to start again.
50:56
I don't believe that for a second.
50:58
If you weren't doing soft Leon right now, do you have any
51:01
business ideas? Audience loves business ideas.
51:03
Something missing right now that that belongs in the market.
51:09
Oh, that's a tough one. That's a tough one.
51:13
I honestly think that next to healthcare, in my opinion, is
51:18
the education is my personal passion.
51:20
I've always believed in this is something that my, my
51:24
grandfather was a, you know, elementary school teacher.
51:27
And I have to say that you know, my reading habit, my curiosity,
51:30
it always came through him and encouraging me to read and learn
51:35
and and my imagination all together too.
51:37
I think next to healthcare, our education system is in dire
51:41
needs. I don't have the ideas, but I
51:44
know there's a lot of problems. OK, after 100 plus years, our
51:48
education system hasn't changed. We still have students sitting
51:52
behind the chairs listening to the teachers maybe doing maybe a
51:56
little different thing. Maybe they have now smart boards
51:59
instead of a blackboard. But the concept, it's still the
52:02
same. We really have to do better.
52:04
Talk about personalized medicine.
52:06
I think we need a personalized education system to to tap into
52:10
these great minds and let them create these amazing things that
52:15
it's a conformist education system is not gonna doesn't
52:18
allow us to do that piece. So I think education will be the
52:21
next big frontier. And is it for me.
52:24
I don't know about that, but I do encourage your audience to
52:27
really tap into that area, especially if you have a passion
52:32
for serving people. To me is that healthcare and
52:35
education are the two really, you know, a great way to serve
52:40
others and enrich their lives. Amazing.
52:43
Totally green. I'm kind of wrapping up here.
52:46
Do you have a colleague, Aceo, an entrepreneur that you admire
52:50
that our audience should know about fall too?
52:55
Boy, you know, being in being in New York, in this part of the
53:00
Long Island, if you will, obviously we don't have a good
53:03
reach ecosystem in terms of entrepreneurs all together too.
53:07
I mentioned about Andy Slavitt is a great friend of mine and
53:10
hopefully he doesn't, he doesn't get mad at me because I, I
53:13
called us out name is a couple of times all together too.
53:16
And then I have great colleagues here at South.
53:18
Beyond that, I've been working years.
53:20
You know, there's one guy named Robert Miller.
53:22
He graduated from, you know, apply math here at Stony Brook.
53:26
And I am proud to say that he's been with me now for 15 years
53:30
and, and I could not be more proud of his accomplishments.
53:33
He he is now advising governors. He's talking to, you know,
53:37
directors of state Medicaid agencies and whatnot.
53:41
And another gentleman is Kevin Deutsch.
53:43
He's been here with me long enough and and brilliant
53:46
engineers. I don't know, I'm maybe I'm
53:49
throwing too many names right now.
53:50
It's going to turn into my Oscar speech in here.
53:52
But you know, Eric Driscoll, John Lynch and John PO Panisi,
53:58
Kyla Lappy, These guys are great guys.
54:00
I could not be happier that I am that I get it.
54:03
I have a job that I come in. I I really hang out with these
54:06
guys and I'm learning so much from them.
54:08
So it's been a nothing but a a blast so far.
54:11
Hopefully, the journey will continue.
54:14
Incredible. Eugene, this has been
54:16
extraordinary. Thank you so much for joining
54:18
me, everybody. That's softheon.com, SOFT
54:22
heon.com. I want to give a shout out to
54:26
Narrative for canned blasts for facilitating this conversation.
54:30
Thank you so much. And Eugene, what's the best of
54:33
best people can connect with you online?
54:36
I will say probably next to our website will be LinkedIn.
54:39
So welcome you to Eugene San. I had the actually you can find
54:44
me up there. There are not many Eugene's out
54:45
there proud to say that. So welcome your audience to, you
54:49
know, reach out and DM me or e-mail me at my e-mail address
54:53
is also my phone number is on LinkedIn because I believe in
54:56
transparency. So I'm happy to, you know,
54:59
reply. I might be a little slow in some
55:01
cases. Like as I said, you know, our
55:03
first job is to take care of those people that they trust our
55:06
in product and services. But yeah, website, LinkedIn and
55:12
otherwise I'm not too active on social media.
55:14
I will say it because I'm too busy.
55:16
I got I don't have much time to do other things in social media
55:19
other than LinkedIn. Amazing.
55:21
You heard it here first. He's a busy guy.
55:23
You got to text him just just. Text him.
55:26
Like I'm in LA with Eugene, what are we about to do?
55:30
Happy. Thank you so much for joining
55:31
us. My pleasure.
55:33
Thanks, Ryan. Thanks for having me.
55:34
Appreciate that. Hey founders, let me ask you
55:38
this, are you building with AI or getting left behind by it?
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Founders. Now back to the show.