Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / Love Is Not Enough: Why You Stay in the Wrong Relationships (Even When You Know Better) w/ Mark Manson

Transcript

Love Is Not Enough: Why You Stay in the Wrong Relationships (Even When You Know Better) w/ Mark Manson · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.A.
0:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Xu.
0:03
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the psychology of relationships.
0:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Love has a way of convincing us that if the feelings are strong enough, everything else will naturally fall into place.
0:14
[SPEAKER_02]: But lasting relationships require more than chemistry, attraction, or simply finding the one.
0:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes the hardest truth to accept is that love alone isn't always enough to make a relationship work.
0:28
[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode, we're talking to Mark Manson, bestselling author of the Settle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, and creator of the audible original love is not enough, who is known for his brutally honest, deeply practical take on modern relationships.
0:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Together, we unpack why so many of us stay in dynamics that no longer serve us, from chase or runner relationships and situations that never fully materialize.
0:54
[SPEAKER_02]: We explore why compatibility matters just as much as passion, how emotional patterns can keep us stuck, repeating the same relationships cycles, and why healthy love requires using both our heart and our head.
1:07
[SPEAKER_02]: This conversation challenges the rom-com fantasy that love should effortlessly conquer all.
1:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And instead offers a more grounded and power and perspective on what actually makes relationships last.
1:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember to subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
1:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And if this episode shifted the way you think about love and relationships, we'd love a rating or review.
1:37
[SPEAKER_02]: that just might change the way you show up for love, enjoy.
1:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So Mark in Love is not enough.
1:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Kind of compare the Beatles song all you need is love, and then the nine inch nails song, Love is not enough.
1:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you think, you know, this like rainbows and butterflies sort of approach to love that love conquers all is super flawed.
1:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's flawed in that we tend to assume that does something feels very good, it must be very good.
2:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And love tricks us a lot in that way.
2:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we can fall in love with people who are bad for us.
2:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We can fall in love with people who don't treat us well or who are not healthy for us.
2:14
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's very hard to be aware of that when you're going through the experience of love or when you are falling for somebody.
2:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so a lot of what I write about in relation to dating relationship is trying to get people to be a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more self-aware of I guess the broader picture when that is happening.
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I kind of use the Beatles and Nineish Nails reference just because it's the irony with the Beatles is that John Lennon saying all you need is love, but he like beat his wives in a band in one of his kids and was just horrible husband.
2:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And in Trent Resner, this guy who's like so famous for doing all this fucked up stuff on stage, writes a song called Love is Not Enough.
2:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you look at his personal life, he's like the most functional responsible husband and father in the music industry.
3:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just thought it was very cool dichotomy.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think are society as a whole idealizes love so much and like thinks it's the solution to all problems?
3:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I guess a very cynical answer that question is love sells well, it's easy to sell love.
3:16
[SPEAKER_00]: We all love to see it.
3:18
[SPEAKER_00]: We enjoy romantic movies and we enjoy seeing the people get together at the end of the movie and all those things.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think it's proliferated.
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one thing that's interesting is that this whole idea that love can solve our relationship problems.
3:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pretty recent thing in human history.
3:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's only a couple hundred years old.
3:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of you ministry people were actually very cynical about love.
3:39
[SPEAKER_00]: They thought it was as dangerous if not more dangerous to the relationship and otherwise.
3:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Mark, do you personally believe in love?
3:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
3:47
[SPEAKER_00]: My take on it is that love is like anything else.
3:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can, there are healthy forms of love and there are unhealthy forms of love.
3:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we all do need love.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
3:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Lennon wasn't wrong about that, but we need to be careful and make sure that the love is serving us and helping us.
4:02
[SPEAKER_03]: I also believe love is a choice.
4:05
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not that once you fall in love, it just all your issues go away.
4:09
[SPEAKER_03]: The dishes that are unwashed in the sink just somehow get cleaned all the sudden.
4:15
[SPEAKER_03]: It's that this choice and constant choice every minute, every moment.
4:19
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think sometimes we forget that in relationships.
4:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, I think especially like if you're single, you think that's subtly if you're in a relationship, you're gonna be happy.
4:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And it usually doesn't work that way.
4:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
4:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So in your audible original love is not enough.
4:33
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so fascinating.
4:35
[SPEAKER_03]: You follow five real people over the course of six months, and they openly let you record all the issues that they're bringing to you.
4:42
[SPEAKER_03]: I think what's so fascinating is you relate everybody's problems back to their history, their background, their upbringing.
4:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I think sometimes we forget that that's what creates who you are today.
4:56
[SPEAKER_00]: There's one of my favorite relationship books is a book by Harville Hendrix called Getting Love You Want.
5:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm bias, you know, you've seen my book titles, but I think it's a terrible title, but the book is fantastic.
5:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have fucking it.
5:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have fucking it's not Angie, but it's um,
5:13
[SPEAKER_00]: He talks about in that book, he talks about how, you know, our childhood and our upbringing, our relationship with our parents when we grow up, it kind of writes what he calls our emotional maps or our love maps.
5:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's basically like how we unconsciously find love in our lives.
5:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when we keep running into the same dysfunctional relationships over and over again, it's
5:34
[SPEAKER_00]: he says it's usually because the love map that was written in our childhood pointed at us to the wrong place.
5:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you have to kind of like learn to be right that map.
5:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And the case with the audible original, like it was important to find out these people's history.
5:49
[SPEAKER_00]: A to kind of like get at what their love maps were.
5:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But also it's like I'm talking these people for about an hour a month.
5:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like going in completely blind.
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have no
6:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what their past relationships were like, what their parents were like, where they grew up, anything.
6:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of the early conversations were just me trying to drill down as quickly as possible to look for patterns in their relationships in their lives.
6:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So do you think it goes back to just the way you were raised and just like the mental models you have around love?
6:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Or do you think there is other reasons that we settle for these less than ideal situations?
6:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't think upbringing is ever explained everything.
6:32
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of it depends on circumstances.
6:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there is dating is often compared to a market and there is a little bit of a market functionality to dating.
6:41
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so depending on the city or in your religious beliefs, your political beliefs, your lifestyle, your gender, your sexual orientation.
6:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Like all of those things kind of affect where you're going to meet people, the circumstances in which you're going to meet people.
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think there's a real practical day-to-day life component that you have to consider as well.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the people in the project was a woman in her 30s actually here in New York, who's just basically been on a 10-year dry spell for 10 years.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: She hasn't had a serious relationship.
7:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of my first, you know, inclinations is like, well, maybe she's just looking in the wrong places.
7:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, yeah, she was on Tinder a lot and Tinder's pretty notorious these days for having a low hit rate.
7:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And that probably was part of it, but at some point you have to realize, like, okay, okay, she's got some sort of pattern here that she's not aware.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it sounded like for her too, she was definitely standing for way less than she deserved and taking kind of like crumbs of relationships.
7:39
[SPEAKER_03]: And also just waiting for relationships to happen versus we're going out and finding the right people.
7:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was interesting with her, you know, without spoiling too much.
7:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I, when I was working with her, I really felt like I was spending most of the time like encouraging her to be more proactive.
7:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's something I generally encourage women to do is to be more assertive and upfront with what they want now they feel.
8:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But then she was just meeting like the shittiest guy.
8:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, well, maybe, yeah, actually, maybe it's good that you didn't tell him that you want to have her off.
8:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think like she kept meeting those shitty guys and she wasn't able to be like this is not a Help these situation.
8:21
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not good for me.
8:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what is it?
8:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's some people cannot recognize because I know I've been there before I've definitely been in situations that are looking back and like why why did I do that to myself?
8:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm curious what your thoughts are?
8:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people, and I see this in both men and women, I think a lot of people they develop like some unconscious patterns or unconscious assumptions about like who they can date and can't, who is like an acceptable partner for them and who's not.
8:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't even think they realize it, but they kind of self-select sometimes for a certain type of person who's just bad for them.
8:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they feel stuck.
8:58
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, these are the only people I'm meeting, but none of them are good for me.
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: When it's, they don't even realize that they're overlooking a bunch of other people like very early on in the process without realizing it.
9:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, what was interesting about her story was her life was a hot mess before, and she turned her life around, and she thought, now's the time for me to attract that right person.
9:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think she almost assumed that whoever she attracted in her new stage in life would be the right person.
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then, you know, just to even add another layer of complexity on top of that, it actually started infiltrating, she actually started developing like a very negative set of beliefs around men in general, you know, she was like, oh, well, when I was a mess, men love me and now that I'm like all put together and have my life in order, and don't want anything to do with me.
9:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess.
9:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Man or just shit, and she developed a lot of like negative beliefs around men that obviously is also not conducive to having a function because if you believe that all men are just like don't have your interest at heart, then you're going to kind of unconsciously select for the ones who don't because they can confirm what you already believe.
10:04
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk about that a lot.
10:06
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you're looking for a red car for example, and everywhere now you see red cars.
10:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like totally
10:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, your brain is an evidence-finder, not a truth-seeker.
10:19
[SPEAKER_03]: So your brain is just giving you all the evidence that your narrative is telling you.
10:23
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is the narrative we hear from a lot of women who write into our show, who say, I worked so hard to get where I am today.
10:30
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so professionally successful.
10:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I have great family and friends.
10:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I deserve a good man.
10:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Why can't I find a good man?
10:38
[SPEAKER_03]: They're no good men out there.
10:40
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the narrative they keep telling themselves
10:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is something I say sometimes and, you know, it might not be the most politically correct thing, but I think it's true, which is as you and as you got, I'm sure you guys believe too, like relationship, it's a skill set, like you, you, you have to learn these things and practice these things and develop these parts of yourselves and I guess traditionally, if you look at previous generations, men were always kind of stereotyped as being very emotionally clueless.
11:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it's the classic male gender role was always like, okay, get really good at your career, make a bunch of money and like all the soft touchy, feely stuff, let women deal with it.
11:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And with feminism and with all the new gender roles, breaking down barriers and all this stuff, I think maybe there's a little bit of assumption with a lot of women that it's like, okay, well, I work my ass off on my career, I'm making all this money, but they don't realize that they never developed those emotional skills.
11:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
11:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So they, they're actually in a very similar position that men traditionally were in, which is they're super successful, very proud of themselves, high self esteem, but they never actually learned how to develop intimacy and be in a relationship.
11:49
[SPEAKER_02]: 100%.
11:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think what I love about your audible originals is that you follow people like the woman we were just talking about that kind of stands for less than ideal situations just in terms of men not committing or maybe treating her like a first priority and all that and then you also talk about like more extreme ones like a woman that is still dating a married man and some of the things that you like traditionally think of.
12:12
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you kind of identify when there is a bad situation ship as what I was going to say?
12:17
[SPEAKER_02]: But that has made me the right way.
12:19
[SPEAKER_01]: That actually is the right way.
12:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to get a situation ship.
12:21
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is a situation ship.
12:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Just came out by default.
12:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not to rain on your poetic new word.
12:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But what do you mean by bad situation ship?
12:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like a healthy relationship, right?
12:34
[SPEAKER_02]: You should go like when there's two very committed partnerships that treat each other like equals and really are giving to each other and taking as much in an equal fashion.
12:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's these situations where one person is clearly not getting their needs met and continuing to go after the relationship despite feeling upset like the whole time.
12:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know, like, I mean, I've definitely been there.
12:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I know logically this is not a good situation.
13:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But for whatever reason, you keep doing it.
13:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess like what are some of the ways that you're, you can spot when someone is in one of these unhealthy, uh, hot things, really, yeah.
13:11
[SPEAKER_00]: gotcha.
13:11
[SPEAKER_00]: The other woman you brought up, she's a perfect example of kind of everything that we're talking about.
13:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Very high-powered woman, extremely successful in her career, extremely smart and just stuck in a relationship with a married guy who turned out was like borderline emotionally abusive towards her.
13:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the things that I discovered with her pretty quickly was that she grew up in such a dysfunctional household like such an abusive childhood that relationship she was in actually felt loving to her that actually was the most loving relationship she had ever been in and that was eye opening both for me and for her to realize that.
13:48
[SPEAKER_00]: when all you've experienced is that being drunk and like disappearing for months at a time, then sleeping with somebody at work who won't leave their wife for you is like, that's an upgrade.
13:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's all relative, basically.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it's still not good, right?
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Still.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: toxic.
14:05
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the metaphors I use a lot to kind of help people determine whether their relationship is healthy or it's unhealthy is I think it comes down to conflict.
14:13
[SPEAKER_00]: How well you as a couple deal with fighting or disagreements?
14:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Generally what I've found is that couples that are very healthy with each other.
14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: The conflict it kind of has this feeling of pushing a rock like downhill.
14:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It's you know, the more to work on it, the easier it gets.
14:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And it actually kind of brings you guys together whereas an unhealthy relationship it feels like you're constantly pushing this rock up a hill And it's like the more you push the more difficult it gets and then it doesn't matter how far you push it It's just gonna roll back down tomorrow anyway That's interesting because I feel like there's those situations where you walk on eggshells because you don't want to you know Totally rock the boat and I think that's definitely to what you're saying I'm hell yeah, actually
14:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And if your conflicts are never being resolved, I mean, that's why you walk on egg shells.
14:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's like if your conflicts actually get resolved and bring you two closer together, then you don't mind having a reason to hide things from each other.
15:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like if the conflict is just ripping a scab off over and over again, then it's like, okay, I'm just gonna shut up and not say anything.
15:12
[SPEAKER_03]: This reminds me of, remember Julie, I told you about a friend of mine and she and her husband fought for two years when they got married because they welcomed conflict.
15:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So they got all the conflicts out of the way and now they don't fight anymore because everything's so easy on the table.
15:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they really got it out of the way.
15:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the what Mark you were saying earlier about how some of it is a skill you have to learn.
15:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think some of it is obviously the partner you're with, but I think a lot of it is yourself too.
15:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I know if your personal experience, like, I think when I had these more toxic relationships in my life.
15:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I probably picked the wrong partner, but I also was not comfortable with addressing conflicts.
15:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And over the years, I've just learned to do that through therapy, through this podcast, like all these different things.
15:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think some of it is your own mental state and then also finding someone that's at the same mental state.
16:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
16:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is kind of another litmus test, right?
16:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, in a toxic relationship, people tend to bring the worst out of each other, whereas I think in a healthier relationship, your partner kind of makes you better.
16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: They see your weaknesses and flaws and they know how to adapt to it and vice versa, whereas in a toxic relationship, it just, it makes each of you weaker.
16:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm, sense.
16:24
[SPEAKER_03]: your story really resonated with me because I have a lot of girlfriends and also guy friends who are high-powered, who are very successful and for some reason they define their self-worth by the pedigree of the partners they attract.
16:40
[SPEAKER_03]: He also went in Ivy League.
16:42
[SPEAKER_03]: He says, start up founder and he's yes and that.
16:45
[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like he's a good match for me because he's pedigreeed in that way.
16:48
[SPEAKER_03]: But they don't take into regard how good these people are and their personalities and even if they get along and even if they're compatible, I sent your audible original to a friend of mine because it reminded me of her so much because for so long, she is just so incredibly smart.
17:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it is why.
17:07
[SPEAKER_03]: No, you totally know what I'm talking about.
17:08
[SPEAKER_03]: She's so smart, this is wise, but comes to personal relationships.
17:13
[SPEAKER_03]: She only goes for guys who are, yes, very pedigree, but come in and out of her life, they're in and out.
17:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And to her, she's created this narrative that that's okay because they're so busy doing their huge accomplishments, then the little time that they give her, that's love.
17:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:31
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's been like this for two years, you know, with the same guy.
17:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm like, please listen to this.
17:36
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to listen to this.
17:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess that's a good, I think you were saying earlier, Mark, some of it is relative to what love you've seen and what stories you're telling.
17:44
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you do when someone like that?
17:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, use that example.
17:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, but I'm in love with them.
17:49
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you say to that when you know it's an unhealthy situation, but they feel that love?
17:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Love is not enough.
17:55
[UNKNOWN]: I mean, it's not enough.
17:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that sounds Kurt, but like really this has kind of been my rallying cry in terms of like all my relationship advice for years now is that we we have to get over this idea that like oh but I love it but I'm so in love with her.
18:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll be okay you know and it's like no
18:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to be okay.
18:16
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, it's probably going to get worse.
18:18
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't have respect, if you don't have trust, if people aren't committed, if they aren't like you're saying you are like, they're not making that daily choice of like, okay, I'm going to sacrifice this to be with this person.
18:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to get better.
18:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So we have to kind of get over this idea, this romantic idea.
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, romance is great.
18:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Feels wonderful, and it's important, but there are more important things to be optimizing for,
18:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And on the flip side of that is, oh, but Mark, I'm in love, flip side is, relationships are all about compromise.
18:51
[SPEAKER_03]: So when do you know you're starting to sacrifice too much to compromise for your partner?
18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, that's a good question and a tough question.
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think there's a threshold where at some point, everybody ends up having to compromise in relationships, but I think there are certain things that are core to your identity and your values that have to kind of be sacred, that have to be off limits.
19:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like that cheesy meatloaf song.
19:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll do anything for love, but I'll do that.
19:21
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
19:24
[SPEAKER_03]: I used to play that on repeat.
19:25
[UNKNOWN]: 20 more seven.
19:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's self defeating it may be it's one of those things that will maybe smooth things over and short run, but it's in the long run, it makes things worse.
20:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Mark, I just had a business idea for you.
20:05
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to create a playlist that takes people through this journey.
20:10
[SPEAKER_03]: It starts with a John Lennon song.
20:12
[SPEAKER_03]: All you need is a lot.
20:13
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you go to meetlobe.
20:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you start getting into nine in sales.
20:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Love is not enough.
20:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you just get into like some really real songs.
20:22
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe like one of the rap songs.
20:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're just taking it through a journey.
20:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm not gonna do that business idea.
20:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, a lot of people are interested in it.
20:36
[SPEAKER_02]: How about a private playlist of just how we can hear us for us?
20:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think one of the things that you talk about a lot is boundaries, which is very important.
20:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we hear this over and over again.
20:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess how would you define boundaries?
20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause I think there's something a little scary about the word boundaries.
20:55
[SPEAKER_02]: At least I feel that way sometimes.
20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think people kind of recoil at the idea of erecting barriers.
21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we like to have the idea that, you know, we can be open about everything and we can love everybody and, you know, and it's like life doesn't work that way.
21:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there has to be a certain expectations of conduct between two people.
21:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the core of it, I define boundaries as basically being each person takes responsibility for their own actions and their own emotions and they don't take responsibility for the other person's actions and emotions.
21:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what you see in a lot of relationships situations is one person is kind of a deadbeat or down on their luck or whatever and the partner is like, oh, well, I'll get him a job and I'll page rent and I'll make sure, you know, I'm going to send him back to school and like just yeah, they started trying to fix the other person.
21:46
[SPEAKER_03]: is that then at the same time?
21:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally, and the person being fixed or is building resentment, too, is it's like, there are autonomy being impeded upon.
21:54
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of dynamics that play out.
21:57
[SPEAKER_00]: One I call the breaker and the fixer, one I call the runner and the chaser, which sounds like you're friend.
22:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's when one person is always pulling back from the relationship and the other person is always stepping forward to try to catch them and bring them back it's a way to kind of experience the feeling of intimacy without actually having to expose yourself and be intimate with somebody.
22:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when we have porous and bad boundaries, we start developing these patterns with people.
22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And the patterns become very destructive.
22:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They create a lot of drama, they create a lot of conflict, unnecessarily.
22:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And neither person is really getting their needs met.
22:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So what does an example of like the breaker and a fixer?
22:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Like what's a healthy boundary that you could put in place if you're in that situation?
22:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can call on my own personal history here, you know, my first relationship in my life, I was the fixer and my girlfriend was the breaker and we were young, we were both very like emotionally dysfunctional ultimately their strategies to feel loved and feel important and feel needed.
22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: She found that if she could cause problems, I would come and fix them.
23:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I fixed them, it made me feel needed in love.
23:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I fixed them for her, she felt love.
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But the problem is, is that as soon as I fix a problem, well, now she's got to find something else to break.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because it's like, oh, she's not fixing something.
23:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I'm loved anymore.
23:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Here, let me break this.
23:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it was just kind of the spiral of trauma over and over.
23:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just over stupid things and it kept getting worse and worse and worse.
23:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, the only way it stops is one of the two people opt out of the cycle.
23:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the case of a breaker, the breaker would have to say, you know what?
23:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to fix anything for me anymore.
23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't want you to get me
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: job.
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to pay my rent.
23:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want you to try to take care of me.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to do this myself.
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the case of the fixer, it's saying the flip side of that, which is like, you know what, I'm not helping you anymore.
23:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to stand up on your own, take care of yourself.
23:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I still love you, but you need to be responsible for yourself.
23:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And generally, in very unhealthy relationships, like if there's not a whole lot of mutual respect and trust there, as soon as one person opts out, the relationship breaks.
24:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And that actually happens with Vanessa.
24:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I spend the first couple conversations with her spoilers, but I spend the first couple of conversations with her teaching her about boundaries and teaching her how to opt out of these cycles with the married man.
24:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's funny because she originally came to me and she's like, I don't know how to break up with him.
24:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to break up with him.
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get out.
24:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to get out and it turned out she didn't even have to do anything.
24:27
[SPEAKER_00]: All she had to do was simply stop playing the game.
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And he immediately broke up with her.
24:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, wow, you're done.
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like,
24:36
[SPEAKER_02]: This goes back to your litmus test earlier, like if someone's willing to work with you on conflict or not.
24:42
[SPEAKER_02]: In a lot of times, in these situations, like you just said they're not willing to work with you.
24:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So it just ends.
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
24:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if there was a situation where someone felt like they were the fixer and the breaker, but then they had that healthy boundary.
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And at that point, the two partners were able to work together.
25:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it would turn more healthy, what do you think?
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so the alternative outcome is, you know, let's say the breakers, like, you know what, I don't want you to fix my problems anymore.
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to do this on my own.
25:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And the fixers, like, oh, yeah.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
25:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Because what you're doing is you're relieving the fixer of the responsibility of dealing with all these things.
25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so both people can sit with that and not freak out and not lash out at each other.
25:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Then it, it actually, that is how you transition into a healthy relationship.
25:28
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's not always doomed.
25:30
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a name in it or not.
25:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It can be fixed.
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it can be fixed.
25:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I don't like the word fixed.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It can't evolve.
25:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
25:39
[SPEAKER_03]: And what about with the Chaser and the runner?
25:42
[SPEAKER_03]: What are some boundaries they can set?
25:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to chase anymore.
25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: in the simple case of like the woman we were talking about like she had a guy who's just ghosting her constantly and I'm like well look like be straight up like do you want to date me if yes stop ghosting me if no peace you know like that's a boundary right it's like when you draw a line in the sand and you say I am no longer tolerating this behavior and this is what's
26:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think people have trouble with boundaries because they're afraid of that outcome.
26:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think there's a lot of feeling like, well, at least I have someone, at least I have something going on.
26:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And not to say that that's healthy, but I think that's where the boundary creation gets scary.
26:28
[SPEAKER_03]: And also, you have to know where your intentions for the boundaries come from.
26:32
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't set these boundaries, hoping for him to say, no, I want to be with you, and then you're super disappointed when he doesn't do that.
26:39
[SPEAKER_03]: You actually have to believe in the boundary that you're setting right.
26:42
[SPEAKER_03]: It can't be a game, yeah.
26:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's any time you gamify anything in relationships, you're ruining it.
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what you just said reminds me of when I wrote my men's dating book, which is it's called a track women through honesty.
26:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I used to get emails.
26:58
[SPEAKER_00]: When I first came out, I used to get emails from guys.
27:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is back when the whole pickup artist thing was going on.
27:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And I used to get emails from guys and they're like, like, hey, Mark, Redger book was really cool, but you know, I tried the whole honesty thing, didn't work man.
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it didn't get late.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You are doing it right.
27:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You are doing it right.
27:18
[UNKNOWN]: You are doing it right.
27:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my goodness.
27:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that though that ties into this whole, like you brought this up in the audible original of like this holding onto a fantasy.
27:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And I do think that is part of why people don't want to create the boundary.
27:36
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you think like this idea of pretending like things are gonna work out or pretending like things are great or you, I don't know, can see a future with someone that might not be in your life at all.
27:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever that fantasy is, how do you think that is destructive to people?
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: the fantasy thing was really interesting.
27:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I went into this project, it was pretty obvious that there are going to be a few themes just because I've been writing about this stuff for so long.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So I knew boundaries were going to come up.
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I knew vulnerability and honesty was going to come up.
28:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That always comes up.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: The fantasy thing was really interesting because that was the one thing that I started connecting the dots on that as the project went on.
28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I started to realize, so there was one woman who came in.
28:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Her issue was specifically around fantasy.
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: She actually like compulsively fantasized about another woman who was not her partner.
28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was causing all sorts of stress and problems in her life.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And at first, I was kind of like, oh, she's, she's a little bit of the oddball here, like her prod, like everybody else had like boundary issues and honesty issues and self-esteem issues and all the stuff.
28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, then you've got this one woman who's just like, got this fantasy thing going on.
28:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But as the project went on, I started realize that all these other people had fantasy issues too.
28:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just that their fantasies weren't as, I guess, obvious.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so there's there's one man in it who is a name's Jerry and he's twice the worst and both the horses were catastrophic I mean, he's he's got like some PTSD type things going on from them and he's in his first new relationship And he's really into his girlfriend and he starts he he's struggling with like every like he's literally afraid to tell her that he thinks it's too cold in the room because
29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: like talk about walking on the eggshells like he is like terrified even like pap is toe on a eggshell um because he's just like so traumatized from his his his past yeah he divorces he even have eggs in his room
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And I started to realize that it's like, wait, Jerry's got fantasy going on too, which is in his head, the fantasy is, is if I asked the turn to AC down, my girlfriend's going to get angry at me, like that's completely rational and unreasonable.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like just as detached reality as some of these other fantasies.
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I started to notice this and other people I was talking to and I'm like, huh.
30:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, of course, obviously, you think about the love and romance thing and, you know, the Disney fantasy of, you know, living happily ever after and everything and and so fantasy ended up becoming one of like the central themes of the project we fantasize a lot about love and we invent.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: these stories and our heads about our partners, about our relationships, about people we want to date or people we think would be perfect for us.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of times these fantasies are a completely detached from reality.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they end up hurting us a lot.
30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Be a lot of times they're they're kind of a defense mechanism.
30:48
[SPEAKER_00]: They're a way to protect ourselves from having to face reality.
30:53
[SPEAKER_02]: That's fascinating because I always think of it like the disney positive.
30:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.
30:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
30:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because a fantasy, by definition, is being detached from reality.
31:03
[SPEAKER_03]: But we kind of think, oh, if I'm fantasizing about something, it must be, it must be something really positive.
31:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it must be really good.
31:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's fascinating.
31:12
[SPEAKER_03]: And so we've talked about the three characters, right, calling them characters.
31:16
[SPEAKER_03]: They're real people.
31:17
[SPEAKER_03]: The three subjects that you had.
31:19
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you give us quick summaries of the other two?
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, the other two one is a 30 something year old man from Utah named Mike and Mike is like the best man.
31:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Talk about the task from reality.
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I want to use him.
31:36
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a great guy.
31:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he's he's one of those guys that like you actually start.
31:41
[SPEAKER_00]: feeling bad for him, you know, I think about halfway through.
31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Because originally he came to me, he was like, man, I can't get off Tinder.
31:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, I'm like addicted to Tinder.
31:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, okay, you know, all right, like, I think I did a preliminary call with him, like, let's see where this goes.
31:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And he just ended up being such a character that I was like, oh my god, I have to talk to this guy.
32:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, I mean, he, he's just completely diluted.
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, he bought his ex-girl from the house to try to get her back.
32:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm nice and sane.
32:16
[SPEAKER_02]: What's he thought he was the one that would like fly all over the place for like a first date?
32:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Was that the same guy?
32:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Or he would I die that you talk them down from that.
32:25
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, no, don't fly across the country for a first day.
32:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Like talk about the fantasizing, right?
32:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's funny too, because he's a, you know, on paper you would never assume that like he's he's a button up corporate guy from Utah Republican like very manly like renovates his own house and like builds his own dry wall and all this crap and like and he's just like the most rampant fantasizer and romantic maybe in the entire project.
32:56
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what, we get people that reach out being like, is it a good idea that I go to like, France and meet up with this guy for a weekend?
33:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is like, I don't even know.
33:06
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, if you wanna go on a trip, go, but don't go because like, you think that this is gonna happen.
33:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, they're like, yeah, but he doesn't wanna do long distance, but should I still go anyways?
33:16
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're like,
33:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they keep creating excuses for the other person.
33:21
[SPEAKER_03]: I always say stopping someone's publicist.
33:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because that's not your job.
33:25
[SPEAKER_03]: You need to stop defending them and making them sound so good.
33:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing how, and I mean, these are usually like, there's smart people, right?
33:34
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, they're very competent in other areas of their lives, but it's just amazing how for a lot of us.
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know I was the same way for a long time.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, my IQ just gets cut in half.
33:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, yeah, it sounds like a great idea.
33:47
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it is the fantasy that all you need is love, like what we talked about earlier because I mean, I've definitely experienced that too is like I thought no matter how much I love someone like all the other problems didn't matter like I could make I could fix it right.
34:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I know we don't like the word fix.
34:04
[SPEAKER_03]: But I actually thought that for a while that you can give us an example of a time you did that because I can think of one in particular.
34:12
[SPEAKER_03]: This is when I was in New York.
34:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I was in love with the sky and we broke up because I was just being crazy on my own.
34:19
[SPEAKER_03]: that if I would run into him on his way out of work, we would have this encounter and we was slowmo running to each other's arms and say that we love each other.
34:29
[SPEAKER_03]: So I literally would walk past a street every day around 630, knowing you got off work around that time.
34:37
[SPEAKER_03]: hoping to run into him, never think on because I would, he would definitely know that was a stalker.
34:42
[SPEAKER_03]: But in my mind, I kept thinking, we just need that one more chance encounter, and when the universe brings us together in his eyes, we will fix everything and everything will be perfect.
34:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think my example's a little different, which is actually
34:56
[SPEAKER_02]: because it can show the extreme differences of how this shows up in people's lives.
35:01
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, I was in a relationship for over a year with someone that I really truly loved and he loved me as well, but he just had other things going on in his life like in terms of just challenges he was facing.
35:12
[SPEAKER_02]: That was totally external to our relationship.
35:14
[SPEAKER_02]: that prevented it from getting to that next level.
35:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Like of getting married, moving in together, all of that.
35:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think for so long, I thought I could fix those problems and the problems were things he really had to do on his own.
35:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just couldn't, like it just wasn't possible.
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think it really can range to like what you're just saying you way having this fantasy of like running in and saving the day versus being in something really thick with someone where two people like I do strongly believe in my heart that we both really do love each other.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: It just didn't work because love is not enough.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right person, wrong time.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: My fantasy story is pretty similar years.
35:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I, I, I, yeah.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That first girlfriend that toxic relationships so you know like most toxic young especially young toxic relationships We a we broke up and got back together like five different times and after one of the I think actually was the last break up And we were doing long distance because we are we had ended up we went to different universities that last break up I was like you know what I'm not gonna stand for this I'm gonna like show her that I love her and that you know I'm committed to this and blah blah blah and so I got I didn't tell her anything.
36:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I got on a bus sat on our bus for you
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: 8 hours.
36:24
[SPEAKER_03]: He started with a bus.
36:26
[SPEAKER_03]: He's bus is never a good idea.
36:29
[SPEAKER_03]: He's never going to go downhill.
36:31
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not a bus ticket.
36:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Showed up at her apartment.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh God.
36:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Unannounced.
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it didn't go well.
36:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she let me stay for the night, but I don't know what they're doing.
36:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's like, you got to get out of here.
36:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't as romantic as you would play back in your head.
36:50
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no.
36:51
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what though?
36:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, what is the line though?
36:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I, this actually made me think of another situation I was in.
36:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Like last year, I really should chip a mind-ended because my boyfriend lost his visa and had to move back to the UK.
37:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I am definitely more of an emotional person and he was very logical.
37:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was all for doing long distance and really trying to make it work.
37:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was like, realistically, like, how is this going to work?
37:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it was very black and white.
37:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think everything he said made sense.
37:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't fault him.
37:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do also believe if two people are really committed to something in it, they can make something work.
37:29
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe that's being having the fantasy.
37:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, what's the line because it's not necessarily ideal to live our lives with no fantasy either.
37:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
37:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The fantasy is okay as long as it kind of exists within the bounds of trust.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So for instance, like flying to France to meet a guy that you've never met before, like you don't know this person, they can be an axmerder or like it's.
37:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That's unreasonable.
37:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, whereas if you've been dating somebody for five years and they move the France, then yeah, flying out there totally makes sense, you know, maybe that will reignite something maybe that maybe that that will lead to a conversation that could create something.
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those things where the relationship kind of has to earn the fantasy has to earn the right to the fantasy that the fantasy can't save a relationship it has to like magnify what's already there and there needs to be context I think like in history, I think like we think the big romantic gesture can save it and then
38:25
[SPEAKER_02]: If it comes in the movies, yeah, it's where we got in this idealistic version, right?
38:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like we think that, like you said, if your story was a movie that you took a bus to see your axe, that would not have ended probably the way it ended, right?
38:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what gives us this false hope and ideas.
38:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
38:44
[SPEAKER_03]: We've talked about fucked up relationships.
38:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I think now it's a good time to talk about healthy relationships and some takeaways and parting advice.
38:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Before we get into that, Mark, do you believe everyone's just inherently fucked up?
38:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
38:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, boom.
38:59
[SPEAKER_03]: There we go.
39:00
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the takeaway.
39:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw an interview of an artist that I'm a fan of once, and he had the best description of love that I've ever seen.
39:12
[SPEAKER_00]: He said true love is when two people with complimenting pathologies meet.
39:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
39:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess that's a good question though, it's because we do want to leave this out of positive note.
39:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like if everyone has fucked up.
39:28
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some ways that we can start?
39:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we talked about boundaries.
39:33
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about being realistic in fantasy.
39:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But what are some other ways that you can start kind of taking ownership and having healthy relationships?
39:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I strongly believe that the healthiness of your relationships is going to be a reflection of your emotional healthiness yourself.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
39:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, the first thing that anybody can do is just start getting right with themselves to start dealing with their own problems individually, go to therapy, read books, you know, meditate, do whatever you need to do to get to a good spot yourself because this is kind of the problem that you're alluding to earlier.
40:03
[SPEAKER_00]: If you feel like you need somebody to compensate for how bad you feel yourself, it's never going to turn out well.
40:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to feel good
40:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I think also you talked about in the audible original about just like having the courage to love and I think that actually is really important and something we've talked about in other episodes too is I think a lot of times some of this game playing and some of this like setting up a boundary to see if they're going to break it and follow through whatever that may be a lot of that is a distraction of finding love and having the courage like how do people kind of break through and have that courage.
40:43
[SPEAKER_00]: it's hard because it's proportional to a willingness to be hurt.
40:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, ultimately, I think people who go through painful breakups and and I get a lot of emails, especially from younger people who have just had their first heartbreak and, you know, we all remember our first heartbreak.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We thought the world was getting more than, you know, but it doesn't.
41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, you end up being much better for it.
41:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I try to remind people of that that it's actually going through that experience and seeing that the world doesn't end, seeing that there are other people out there for you, seeing that you can survive on your own, that you can be happy on your own.
41:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what gives you the courage to say, you know what?
41:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to take this leap with this person and see what happens.
41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope it goes well, but if it doesn't, I'll be fine.
41:23
[SPEAKER_00]: That allows you to engage the relationship from a place of confidence and strength.
41:28
[SPEAKER_03]: I always say that love can't be found, it can be felt.
41:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And I say this a lot because I feel like by people saying, I'm here to find love.
41:38
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like an object that just exists in the road and you just find it and somehow you take it in.
41:43
[SPEAKER_03]: But to feel love, it's, you have to feel it from within.
41:47
[SPEAKER_03]: And when you feel love, you are putting the accountability on yourself to do that and not just trying to find it somewhere.
41:55
[SPEAKER_03]: So, it really goes hand in hand with our conversation where, yes, love is not enough.
42:00
[SPEAKER_03]: The love is the beginning of you putting yourself out there to at least open to feeling that.
42:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Once you feel that, how do you constantly choose to feel the love and work on your relationship?
42:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
42:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a great way to kick off takeaways.
42:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think the other big takeaway I had from this conversation is also just understanding why you're doing certain things.
42:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, for example, if you're living in a fantasy, is that because you're just afraid to be in love?
42:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, are you afraid to bring love into your life?
42:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, what is the root of where this is coming from?
42:34
[SPEAKER_02]: and I think the other big takeaway is if you're in an unhealthy situation, it's better to confront that reality and either work your way out of it.
42:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that was reassuring that it doesn't necessarily be that your in a toxic relationship it needs to be toxic forever, but I think having again the courage, it all comes back to courage,
42:55
[SPEAKER_02]: To be able to say, okay, well, if I do bring this up, I state my needs.
43:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I say what I need in a relationship and they're not willing to meet me or have a conversation.
43:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm okay walking away from this and I think that courage is equally as important as the courage to actually find love.
43:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
43:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's really fantastic.
43:16
[SPEAKER_03]: My biggest takeaway from something you said, Mark, and it just blew my mind.
43:20
[SPEAKER_03]: I wrote it down in big capital letters.
43:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Biggs vs. Evol, oh yes.
43:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Can we just simmer on that for a second?
43:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
43:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Because we always say, oh, I have this problem.
43:31
[SPEAKER_03]: Even just like your own personal development problems.
43:34
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a problem that I'm always late.
43:36
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to fix that problem.
43:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Fixing seems so drastic.
43:39
[SPEAKER_03]: because it's turning one action and you're fixing yourself and going the flip side, going a perfect 180 and it doesn't happen like that.
43:48
[SPEAKER_03]: But evolve is so different.
43:51
[SPEAKER_03]: It visually, to me, seems like you're climbing a different hill and just making those small baby steps.
43:57
[SPEAKER_03]: So in relationships too, it's not about fixing your problems and your issues is about evolving from them.
44:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is the most brilliant way
44:09
[SPEAKER_03]: And I also love this idea of identifying the fantasies you've had, whether they're positive or negative.
44:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
44:15
[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, maybe all fantasies have a negative impact because they're not reality.
44:20
[SPEAKER_03]: So maybe just even plotting out your love history and seeing what were some of the disconnect.
44:26
[SPEAKER_03]: What did you want to happen?
44:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I identify that as a fantasy and identify what the reality was.
44:33
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you were able to find that delta of, oh, that's where that fantasy came from.
44:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's where my fantasy was and that's where the reality is.
44:41
[SPEAKER_03]: That I would do that today.
44:43
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great action item for people.
44:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll even, I'll even throw in my own takeaway.
44:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
44:51
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that was cool about the fantasy thing from the project was I realized that this is something that we all do and it's something that we all continue to do.
44:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I even know, like I'm happily married, have been married for years now.
45:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I noticed that even within my marriage, I create these stories or these fantasies of like what a marriage is supposed to be.
45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: What is a husband supposed to do?
45:13
[SPEAKER_00]: What is a wife supposed to do?
45:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And over and over again, I realize like, well, wait, why, that's not necessarily true, like why do I think that is true?
45:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Why am I assuming that?
45:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do I think that I need that to be happy?
45:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's something that it's a lesson that is is kind of born out of the dating world, but it's it continues to be valuable even in committed relationship land.
45:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Brune Brown, she does this with her husband too, so I agree.
45:40
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't end on day to get off, but her thing is like, when there's something that she's feeling uncomfortable with, she'll say to him, the story in my head is X.
45:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's really putting out there that this is how I'm feeling right this minute.
45:55
[SPEAKER_02]: That might be completely invalid, but let's just talk about it.
45:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's have an opening communication and see if this is valid or a total fantasy.
46:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's like a great way to build a healthy relationship, like we talked about earlier, it all comes down to how you navigate conflict.
46:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So putting that stuff out there and being vulnerable with it is a great way to go from something that might feel more toxic or fantasy land or whatever it is to healthy.
46:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is so much about what you've done in love is not enough is hearing these people talk about what they're going through and just hearing them speak.
46:32
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like they've started to resolve their own issues because sometimes you just have to put it out there in words or on paper and when you read it or view it from a third party's perspective, it becomes so much more clear.
46:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that goes back to the whole evolution piece too and we're talking about this and we've all, we all shared our own situations too.
46:55
[SPEAKER_02]: No one is immune to this, like everyone has been in less than ideal situations or situations as we mentioned.
47:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you kind of have to go through it.
47:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It lets you see what you'll never stand for again.
47:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think like until you've had these experiences, I think where it becomes toxic is when you keep having the same experiences over and over again and not learning from it, but also cut yourself some slack if you have had one of these situations because it's okay, everyone's been there.
47:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You got to have them to learn from them, exactly.
47:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you again, Mark, for joining us.
47:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We really appreciate you big year.
47:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the Psychology of Relationships today, so you don't miss an episode.
47:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye!