Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / Marriage Under Pressure: Parenting, Stress & Staying Connected with The Freemans
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- Dr. Taz: [00:00:00] I feel like as I sit with men, they bring that element of being physically unhealthy, which is then impacting their mental health and their emotional health into their relationships. And so then when you go and say, Hey, I'd like to communicate, or I don't feel connected, or I'd like to do X, Y, and Z, there's no bandwidth. Hmm. There's no reserve left to receive that, and a lot of their shutting down and checking out or whatever else is purely a lack of energy. Aaron Freeman: Men need to feel like they're striving for something, right? That brings purpose, that brings meaning to their own individual life. But as we get further into our life, we don't then remake what that is. Mm. Right. So we're in a marriage. We're in our job. We need a new aim. Dr. Taz: Welcome to Whole Plus, the podcast that embraces and tackles the holistic way, bringing it all together, science, research, innovations and technology, and our collective human experience. This is where science and Spirit come together. I'm Dr. Taz, your host, and a double board certified medical doctor, an integrative health expert, a nutritionist and an [00:01:00] acupuncturist. I'm also the founder and CEO of whole plus a digital and clinical platform where my team and I practice evidence-based holistic medicine every single day. I know and I hear all the health and wellness noise that's out there. I want this show to be the one to empower you with the knowledge you need to heal. Not just your body, but your relationships, your communities, and our world. Welcome to Whole Plus. Marriage satisfaction is something that is so debated in today's relationships. I've been married 21 years and I'm gonna be a hundred percent honest with you guys. We've had our highs, but we've definitely had some lows. I am so thrilled they're for, to bring on my next two guests, Jocelyn and Erin Freeman, both known as the Freemans, are a powerhouse husband and wife team transforming relationships as marriage coaches with master's degrees in psychology, authors and hosts of the top ranked Empowered Couples podcasts. They blend real talk wisdom with research backed tools to help [00:02:00] couples break unhealthy patterns and build lasting connections. Their viral content reaches over 17 million people monthly and their sold out workshops and thriving Instagram community make them go-to Voices for Couples ready to deepen their partnership and model intentional love for the next generation. Please join me in welcoming the Freemans. I'm so happy to have you both on the show. There's a timeliness that I'll explain later, but I've gotta ask you this question. Jocelyn Freeman: Yeah. Dr. Taz: Can being in the wrong relationship actually make you physically sick? Jocelyn Freeman: 100%. I've been sick, not only just in the wrong relationships where there's just a lot of unhealthy dynamics, but even when conflict occurs, even in the right relationship, I mean, there's been times where we've had, you know, conflicts, especially earlier on in our relationship where we didn't have the tools and skills where I definitely am more susceptible to even like getting a cold being run down, not operating as well. But [00:03:00] definitely I've experienced in more toxic, unhealthy relationships where you just can't even thrive. I even think about as a teenager and my parents going through their divorce. Dr. Taz: Yes. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah. I mean, Jocelyn Freeman: I, I see now why, Hmm. Maybe that was part of all the acne that I had, right. Was the amount of stress that I was having. Me, I had a dysfunctional Dr. Taz: home and PCOS acne. Mm-hmm. Hair loss, all the things. Yeah. Jocelyn Freeman: Outta nowhere too. But if I really look back at the timeline, it's like, oh, right. When all of that was going on. Dr. Taz: Oh my goodness. So one of the things, you know, that I observed as a teenager mm-hmm. And that I continue to talk about today, you know, and witnessing my parents' dysfunction and how sick it made each of them, and even kind of where they've landed as you know, you know, older people today. Like I did not want that for myself. Right. But I continue to witness. So many relationships that, you know, are toxic or are unhealthy. And then people come to my exam rooms [00:04:00] and you know, wonder why they're not healing or wonder why they're not getting better. You guys have spent a lot of time in this space. Mm-hmm. You've built, you know, a lot of tools and resources for couples, right. Navigating kind of the dynamics of relationships. Before we get into the nitty gritty, I'm curious how you even landed, how both of you landed in this space to begin with. Aaron Freeman: Hmm. I mean, it started outta necessity. I was broken up with, in my early relationships through, I mean, almost none in high school, and then college, a few cheated on. Mm-hmm. And so in the handful of relationships I had. They were very threatening. Mm-hmm. Like being in a relationship was threatening, you know, to me, because I'm gonna, Dr. Taz: someone's gonna hurt you get rejected. Yeah. Right. Aaron Freeman: So, longer story, when we do finally get together, even though I tried to break up with her, Dr. Taz: he did. This was a whole other, okay. That's probably some psychology there too, right? Yeah. And it was, yeah. And you Aaron Freeman: subconsciously, you know, even though I was always on the receiving end of being broken up with, [00:05:00] in that time period, she was more interested in me than I was of her. Mm-hmm. And so she was showing more affection and interest and that kind of scared me. So then I said, I think we should just be friends. You know that whole thing Right. Did it over the phone. Oh. But she called me right back. She, she called me immediately back. I remember at the time, flipping that phone back open and she said, you know what? That doesn't work for me. And I couldn't have told you ahead of time what phrase could she say that would have me be back in? Because it really did go right down through the subconscious mind because her saying that gave me reassurance and confidence that I didn't have to be as afraid of rejection. So fast forward that we all have our patterns from our past Yes. That we bring in. We do. And so it wasn't like that healed all of it. So getting into the idea of being married, I said, I, I wanna be successful. And I was used to playing sports and things like that. Mm-hmm. It's like I knew that if I practiced dribbling or shot 1000, you know, free [00:06:00] throws, I would get better at basketball. Right. What could I do to get better at marriage and then feel reassurance and confidence that. Our marriage would be successful. So we sought that out. Mm-hmm. Dr. Taz: From the get go early Aaron Freeman: from the get on. Yeah. Without any issues or anything like that, that what gave me confidence to propose to her, Noah, was knowing I had a tool set. So naturally from there, I think people just started asking us, Hey, do you have any sort of secrets? What are your tools? Just kind of naturally flowed into 10 years later, you know, here we are. Jocelyn Freeman: Yeah. Amazing. And the motivation Yes. Is absolutely just us early on, our upbringings were so different. Mm-hmm. His parents are going on their fifth decade of marriage. Wow. Amazing. Whereas mine got divorced. Right. And it was a very tumultuous, you know, unhealthy divorce. And so we brought in these completely different blueprints of what a relationship should look like. What does communication look like? What does conflict look like? So we had to reconcile all of that and say we don't wanna unconsciously bring in those patterns. We want to intentionally [00:07:00] really say, what do we want this to look like and what's healthy? Let's learn. So from the beginning we had a growth mindset and that was really important to me in a relationship. Aaron Freeman: Yeah. Actually something to that point. When we reflect on our own upbringings, it would seem like mine was better. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Aaron Freeman: But we all take away, Dr. Taz: was it? Yeah. And in some Aaron Freeman: regards it was right? Yeah. Stability. The amount that my parents were there. My dad quit a corporate job to show up to my brother and i's sporting events and work at the school. Uh, so there is a sense of, there was security, there was love, but I didn't get modeled emotional regulation or how to handle conflict. When there was a conflict with my parents conversation immediately stopped. My dad walked out of the room. Next thing I know we're in the backyard playing kickball. Mm. And it's like, Dr. Taz: mm-hmm. Aaron Freeman: So I did grow up feeling like, oh, any sort of tension or conflict must be a problem. And then so when we got together, naturally a marriage faces conflict. Of course. Yeah. So when we did, I had the tendency to shut down and not engage [00:08:00] and pull away. And that caused her to feel more isolation, kind of abandonment. Mm-hmm. Then her patterns were, no, we're gonna talk this out. Yeah. So now you've got that we're gonna, we're gonna hit this, we're gonna talk to me now. You know? So, and that causes more tension, right? Like, don't force me into something I'm uncomfortable with. So we realize that yes, there's certain aspects of having more structure and love and presence in the home is obviously better. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, you can't control what your kids take away from what gets modeled. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. So Aaron Freeman: I took away what I took away, and it's like you're always gonna have to reconcile with your partner. How do we negotiate needs? How do we handle conflict? How do we repair? So you're always gonna have to do that Dr. Taz: where, so, okay, so you're walking into your marriage. Mm-hmm. More prepared than the ordinary couple, right? Mm-hmm. I think most people, even today, still have the fairytale. Yeah. You know, as we're talking, uh, Travis and Taylor just got engaged, right? Like the fairytale pictures are everywhere and they're in the honeymoon stage, which is awesome. It's amazing, right? And we're all [00:09:00] cheering for them and happy for them. But you know, most people walk away from an engagement or from a wedding thinking, okay, this is my person and everything's gonna be amazing. And if you're the right person, then everything should be fine. Right? Uh, therapy work is for people that have trouble, right? It's not for people that truly love each other, you know, and are dedicated to one another. Mm-hmm. What is wrong with that way of thinking? Jocelyn Freeman: Well, we probably have all heard it, right? That love is not enough for marriage. Dr. Taz: Mm. Jocelyn Freeman: Like marriage is a whole other ball game. And we, we've met with a lot of couples who come to us and they really like the coaching approach because I think a lot of people associate going to counseling as we're gonna vent and then we're gonna argue, right? Whereas people come to us and they're like, we want the steps. Like, we realize there's something we need to change and improve. We need the strategies, we need the tools, and we will meet with couples and they're amazing people, right? They both work really hard, right? They're both intelligent people. They wanna be the best parents they can be. And the [00:10:00] thing is, sometimes they feel like, if I'm a good person, shouldn't that be enough? But being a good person doesn't mean you know how to communicate, you know, difficult feelings or how to handle when you really disagree on something that's important. Because again, it's like what was modeled to you. It plays such a big role, and so I think we just like to flip the script and I think that's why so many people are gravitating to our content. Yeah, because we're not saying you're a bad person, therefore you're having problems. Right. It's, Hey, you just need some additional tools, skills. We all go through these things because that's the other thing is. Even certain challenges might not show up in the first few years of your relationship. Right. You know, you, there can be certain challenges that you encounter that really unearth other fears and insecurities or patterns. And then definitely, and this is a lot of what we've been talking about lately is a lot changes when you have kids. So it's like a whole chapter. Yeah. Some of that stuff, that's the whole thing. Yeah. It might not have manifested in the first, you know, several years of your relationship and so just even reframing [00:11:00] that, hey, marriage, which we all hope is, is really this long journey. Right. You know, like we're at a decade now, our anniversary. I was about to ask, how long have you Dr. Taz: guys been married? Yeah. Our 10 year wedding wedding Jocelyn Freeman: anniversary coming up. Amazing. Since I know you love data and things like that, you might find it interesting that one of the largest meta-analysis studies found that marriage dissatisfaction mm-hmm. Peaks at about 10 years together. Interesting. Yeah. So, and of course there's variances to that, but that's often associated when you're raising young kids. Right. When you're also really striving for career success, right? Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of pressure and stress on you. So we talk a lot about too, what does it take to be together a long time and be satisfied? Dr. Taz: Well, you know, one of the things I've seen too, so there, I didn't know about the 10 year. Mm-hmm. And I think that's super interesting. You know, talk about even longer. I'm hitting, uh, 21. Amazing. But, but you know, there are definitely like peaks and valleys Oh yeah. To all of that. Right. But one of the things I've noticed for sure, you know, being in [00:12:00] sort of a, a longer term, not necessarily in my relationship, but in like my peers and my patients and stuff like that, is that there is an escalation of divorce. Around sort of this perimenopause menopause timeframe, which is somewhere like 45 to 55 or so. Mm-hmm. You know, if, if the dissatisfaction is peaking at year 10, then why? Why are we seeing the divorce rate peak? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. At 45 to 50, which is probably closer to the 17, 18, 19, 20 year, you know, timeframe. I was reading about that too. Yeah. 'cause Aaron Freeman: people have this idea that you stay together for the kids. It's a huge part of it. Right. And you know, that's really where we're super passionate to talk about your marriage satisfaction plays as big of a role as your presence. So it's not just about staying together. You live in a household. Jocelyn Freeman: Right. Aaron Freeman: For the kids. Right, but your kids know, they feel it, everything. They're intuitive. You have psychological principles that we already started this show [00:13:00] off with, like emotional crossover and emotional spillover. Dr. Taz: Talk about those a little bit. Yes. Because I think a lot of people, you know, put the mask on and they wanna be together for the kids. Or like you were giving in your example. Mm-hmm. You know, which was different from mine. We had fireworks constantly in our childhood home. It was not, you know, we knew there was conflict. Mm-hmm. But a lot of homes run the way you are talking about where one partner doesn't engage in conflict, walks out. Mm-hmm. Right. Or shuts down or disappears. You know, what is the emotional spillover or crossover mm-hmm. That we need to be aware of. Aaron Freeman: Emotional spillover is where, like in your own day to day as an individual, the emotions you have from one segment, like work Dr. Taz: mm-hmm. Will Aaron Freeman: spill over into your leisure or your family time. Dr. Taz: Mm. Emotional Aaron Freeman: crossover is that my emotional state crosses over to a partner or my kids. So if I come home angry and then my actions and behavior are reactive to my kids, I'm going to cross over that [00:14:00] emotion onto them. Wow. So, yeah, it's, you know, people think, well, we stay together for the kids and it's usually focused on, we provide for them like, you know, security and a home, and those things are important, but if you're staying together and having high reactivity and you're withdrawing from conflict and you're letting things escalate Jocelyn Freeman: or you're disconnected, even all, Aaron Freeman: yeah. All of that emotion is creating the environment within your home and your kids feel that. Dr. Taz: Mm. Aaron Freeman: So. Could we say that staying together is better than divorce? Well, it's about the emotional environment you're creating, and I think that needs attention paid to it. Like the best scenario is you stay together. And your marriage satisfaction is high because that itself sends a lot of messages to your kids. Right. Whether it's attachment and bonding or their own emotional regulation, Jocelyn Freeman: even their performance in school mm-hmm. Is tied to this, right? I mean Absolutely. Kids' performance, um, and [00:15:00] anxiety is higher when they're in a high conflict home. Or even, like you said, even when there's like they know conflicts there, but it's not being discussed. Kids are so intuitive and I think what we were talking about even before the show of our passion of really thinking about the whole ecosystem. Mm-hmm. Of their life, their family. And that health isn't just what you ingest, it's also your conversations, your connection, the whole home environment. And that's what we're really championing for, is by focusing on your marriage, you are benefiting your entire family. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, I think we talked about this, that families have a health ecosystem, right? And you can have everybody. Biohacking and supplementing and hormone replacement therapy. You know, all the things. Doing all the things. But if you're walking into an unhealthy ecosystem, mm-hmm. Right? You're instantly going to have things like inflammation, high cortisol, you know, I can get super granular with what the lab's saying, what the data says. Right? But that is what we are seeing, you know? And so I [00:16:00] think this idea of how do we heal our relationships, pick healthy relationships, you know? And if we're not in a good one, how do we turn around from that? I think these ideas are really, really important. And I think for mothers and fathers, you know, like. Once you have children, the dynamic and the goals change significantly, right? Yes. So if we think about, so I have two questions. So question number one is there's marriage satisfaction that you both have brought up. Mm-hmm. Does that also apply to just what if people don't get married? What about just relationship satisfaction? Are those like. Similar ideas or does marriage really change the dynamic? Jocelyn Freeman: I mean, of course getting married does add in like a longer term commitment for a lot of people. Right. But like you've talked about, some people are choosing not to get married. Right? Right. That, that is rising today. We still find that the majority of people coming to us really do see the value in committing to each other in being married. I think that our work could be applied right. To just, we want to be together a long time. We're committed to each other and we [00:17:00] want to be satisfied. So we, we use the term marriage. Yeah. And people can apply it even if they don't get legally married. Right. We just personally believe that it is such a powerful declaration. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Jocelyn Freeman: And so we're champions for marriage. I am Dr. Taz: too. And I don't wanna get a lot of hate mail from everybody, but this is gonna apply to everyone. Yes. So, but anyhow, I'm gonna continue to use the word marriage satisfaction. Mm-hmm. As we talk about this. So I wanna know what constitutes marriage satisfaction? Is there a way to be. Sort of linear about it, have a checklist of sorts, have something that we can like turn to and be like, okay, I'm satisfied. Mm-hmm. Or is it more just an intuitive internal feeling that, you know, we have to kind of sit with ourselves? Jocelyn Freeman: There's a couple ways that you could measure it. 'cause there's definitely everyone has, in a sense, like a, an unconscious checklist that they're looking for. So it is gonna vary per person, but we could even just simplify it to what we call the three Cs. Okay. How you feel in your connection. How you feel about your communication and how you feel about your conflict [00:18:00] resolution. So easy to remember. Right. So the threes, you can just do a quick check-in, how do we feel about the three C's? But connection of course is really, I think the thing that we all deep down get into a relationship for it. And within connection is feeling loved. Dr. Taz: Mm. It's Jocelyn Freeman: feeling seen, it's feeling special to someone. It's experiencing intimacy. So there's lots of sub terms that you can go into, but it's, we didn't get married to just say, Hey babe, let's survive together. Right, right. You know, like, let's, let's make some babies and get jobs. Like that's not what most C five, right. That's, that's not what most of us get married for. We get married for companionship, joy, being able to open up our hearts to someone, talk about the burdens that we're, we have on our shoulders and, and have someone to. We've been talking a lot about this as well, is have someone to co-regulate with. Right? Because you could say, you know, I don't need a relationship. I, I'm going do life. And there's a lot of people who can absolutely [00:19:00] be, or choosing that right. Fulfilled in that. But I also think that as human beings like. We want to co-regulate with someone, which, what does that mean? So a lot of people are familiar with emotional regulation. Mm-hmm. Which is your ability to recognize and regulate what you are feeling. You know, I'm, I'm stressed, what am I gonna do with this emotion? But I also sometimes don't feel strong, you know, or I, I, I want just to process with someone, or I want someone to give me a hug, right. And tell me everything's gonna be okay. So our nervous systems communicating with each other, and that's what parents are doing with their children a lot of times, or forgetting to do with their children, right? Mm-hmm. Is co-regulating and people forget, oh, my partner is someone that I can co-regulate with too. Dr. Taz: So, as we're trying to establish marriage satisfaction, I love the way you're defining it with these three Cs. Mm-hmm. How does resentment set in? You know, what does that look like? Is there again, a benchmark where you guys normally see resentment starting to set into a relationship? [00:20:00] Um, I know on my end, resentment looks like inflammation in the body. Mm-hmm. You know, it's sort of the seeping early signs. And women are interesting as are men. Women are very interesting. 'cause a lot of times they can't name it. They can't name the fact that they're resentful, but instead they're experiencing anxiety or anger. Or anger. Mm-hmm. You know, and men, when they're resentful, I see a lot of anger actually with men. I feel like that's the number one thing that we see with men. Mm-hmm. You know? So, you know, is there a stage at which resentment starts to seep into a relationship? And can you turn that around? Yeah. Aaron Freeman: I think, you know, building off of where we've already come from and psychology likes the terms emotional closeness. Mm. I think it gives more of a way to really think about your interactions. So is your emotional closeness high or low? It also likes desire for proximity. Mm. Dr. Taz: It like you wanna be around each, wanna be near each other. It's as simple as that. Aaron Freeman: Do you actually want to be physically around each [00:21:00] other? Mm. And I think to your point, when that resentment builds, right? That desire for wanting to be around, especially for men, starts to lower. And you can see men do their own thing, be more independent. And then lastly, openness to forgiveness. And so if that is really what drives marriage satisfaction, well, I would say if you start to reduce that and then you feel you have to be in the marriage out of obligation, then those two factors create resentment. Mm. It's like if we don't have emotional closeness, if I can feel there's not a desire for. Proximity and there's not a lot of willingness to forgive and repair, but I have to be in this relationship who, who wants to feel obligated to do anything Right? I think, and that, that breeds suffering, right? So if we also suffering comes from that, which we feel we don't choose. So if you're feeling like you don't, you're not choosing this state of the marriage, but you have to be in it. You suffer more. The longer you suffer, the more resentment grows. Jocelyn Freeman: And I also think that when we [00:22:00] are interacting with couples, what really starts to happen in their interactions as Erin is really describing is they start to feel like they can't bring something up without it becoming a fight. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Jocelyn Freeman: So it's like, okay, there's this maybe thing I'm wanting more of in our relationship or something I'd like to talk about or something I wanna see change. If I bring it up, how receptive are you gonna be? Right? And if it feels like I try a few times and you're either defensive, dismissive, turns into a fight, now I'm going to not bring it up right then that I, I say that little seed grows and becomes weeds. Mm. And what happens is your perception of your partner changes. They go from being this person that you, you know, can confide in, that you trust that you can't wait to see at the end of the day to, should I say this? Should I not? Are they gonna be receptive? Oh, they're dismissive again, and you just. They, they're no longer, you know, prince Charming or that that princess to you. They're this person that you're afraid is going to react. [00:23:00] Dr. Taz: You're walking on eggshells all the time. Yeah. It's, yeah. Aaron Freeman: Let's add one more thing, because a lot of what we end up seeing under the surface for couples is this idea I don't get to be myself. Mm. Or I don't get, get to be the best version of myself. So I hear that a lot. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And in marriage, you want, you really need your partner to be your champion, your cheerleader, the place where you get encouragement to pursue being the best version of yourself. So with everything that Jolyn is saying too, if you're not open to hearing each other's needs and meeting them on top of your, if you're not encouraging each other to grow in the areas of your own interest, you start to feel more limited and constrained. I can't get to be myself, right? I don't get to fly. You really don't want your partner to feel like this anchor that pulls you down to not be the person. Or this, or your soul came here, right to, to express your highest gifts and talents and you want your marriage to be a place that supports and encourages that. Dr. Taz: Well, let's say, you know, their [00:24:00] marriages of different stages and different lengths of time, and let's say some bad habits have been happening. Mm-hmm. Whether it's, you know, shutting down, not communicating, not being close, whatever it is, you know, can couples turn around from that? And if they do. Turnaround from that, what makes somebody successful? Mm-hmm. What works essentially, you know, when you know, maybe there's this history of, you know, some of these habits and patterns being laid, you know? Yeah. Jocelyn Freeman: 100%. People can change if they have that mindset. I was saying to someone, we were in another interview, and I said, the biggest red flag I think in marriage is if they say, oh, I don't believe in that stuff. Dr. Taz: Mm. Jocelyn Freeman: I don't believe in therapy. I don't believe in coaching those self-help books. When they're dismissive of that, what they're really saying is, I'm not willing to look at myself. Right. And so having a growth mindset is so important in marriage. And what does that mean? Just, oh my gosh. You need to say that again. Having a growth mindset is everyone's listening. Yes. Yeah, because here's the thing. As human [00:25:00] beings. What's so cool about us is we can adapt. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Jocelyn Freeman: We can evolve. We can improve. Like, that is what's incredible about being a human being. We are not perfect. We've been together over, you know, 12 years, actually 10, married. Right. We haven't been perfect every single day. Right. None of us are. We've had rough patches even a month ago. A little bit of a rough patch. Yeah. But the thing that we have going for us is we're always willing to take feedback from each other. Of course, lovingly. Right? Like, there's a way to make sure the feedback is, is loving and not critical. Aaron Freeman: And I would say in the broader perspective, Jocelyn Freeman: yeah. Aaron Freeman: Not always the micro, we try to be honest. Like there's moments where I'm not wanting to feel, get feedback right now Jocelyn Freeman: if it's, if it feels like it's too much at one time. Right. But generally, like we, if we will talk about why do things feel off between us? Mm. We're feeling friction, we're feeling tension. Let's not let this spiral, let's talk about why and we'll hear each other's perspective out and say, okay. That's a good point. I will work on that. I will adjust that. And then we're both accountable people, right? Right. Mm-hmm. So we're people that, [00:26:00] you know, we don't need to be reminded every day. It's like, okay, I'm focusing on that and I'm going to show my partner I'm, I'm capable of adapting. Yeah. And changing. And so that's why I think anyone can realize, all right, we've gotten off track in our marriage. Right? And as long as both people are humble enough to look in the mirror, they're, you know, have a growth mindset, you can absolutely overcome those patterns Aaron Freeman: you can get. And there's probably a lot more for you to even ask on that, but this is a good way taking a page outta Jocelyn's book. Yeah. One. Partner can spark change, but it takes two to sustain the change. Dr. Taz: Mm. That's a good one. Mm-hmm. That's so important. And I was actually about to ask, is there a gender sort of, uh, spread amongst who has a growth mindset and who does not? Again, I sit with both. Mm-hmm. Men and women. Mm-hmm. Right. But, and I have my own opinions, but I often hear that, well, so and so doesn't think anything's wrong. Right. So, you know, I'm gonna get a divorce or whatever, you know. Right. Do you find that men are more [00:27:00] resistant to change or do we, we, I, we both got something to say on this? Or do think that women are more resistant to change? Okay. Jocelyn Freeman: You go and then I'll say something. Aaron Freeman: This is such a great question and I think a lot of it has to do at this point though, we've really noticed that what men seek for like their need is different than what women would say. Okay. So we find that men are really looking for harmony. Then they measure that based on the amount of conflict Jocelyn Freeman: like they want, they think things are harmonious if we aren't arguing. Got it. So therefore they're Okay. So think of, so Aaron Freeman: think of, think of most men like seeking, like that's their goal. Dr. Taz: Okay. Aaron Freeman: Like, Hey bro, how's your marriage doing? If it's harmonious because there's not a lot of conflict. They, oh, it's going well. Women need connection. So those are very different things. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Aaron Freeman: So without being too general, I would say women will tend to feel that the marriage isn't doing [00:28:00] as well because the connection is down. And so they feel there needs to be more change when we, you know, connection again, being down. So men can tend to stay in a marriage. Season feeling like it's better because it's harmonious, just because there's not conflict. So all that to be said, I think women have more of the intuition that something needs to change earlier. Dr. Taz: Mm, interesting. Aaron Freeman: However, I do want to invite men to have more of a pulse on that. Your marriage doing well has also more to do with how your partner's doing, not just how you feel. Mm-hmm. It is. So, I think men are a little bit more resistant in the beginning. I think to your point, a lot of the ideas of therapy that something's wrong, that has men be more resistant, and that's why we brought a coaching mentality forward. Right? Most men have played some sort of sport, right? Or been with a team, right? Mm-hmm. Hey, the team needs to get better here. Yeah. Okay. There's nothing [00:29:00] personal. You don't need to internalize that. We're not making you feel bad. Let's gain some skills together so that we both can be on a winning team. Men seem to be more open to that, so that's how we've kind of Dr. Taz: phrased it. Mm-hmm. Phrased Aaron Freeman: it. Gotcha. Had men feel more open to it. But if we were to generalize, I think women do feel that there's more of a need because when connection is down, men might be a little bit more resistant. But if you can meet them where they're at with, Hey, we're not making you feel bad. There's some skills and tools that usually gets them memo more, then they respond better to that. There's Jocelyn Freeman: so much that's changing too with marriage right now. Yeah. I mean, we were even briefly talking about that, about just even generations before, right? What men witnessed was typically mom was home, dad went off to work. Then when dad came home, maybe sat on the couch, everything was pretty Right. Waited for dinner, right? Yeah. And so that was real. That was one generation ago, right? And so, but now most, I think it's 65% of households have both people working. Right? And so that [00:30:00] isn't the dynamic anymore, but there's like, if you think about it, it's like what was modeled to us though? So right now, this generation. Is the cycle breaking generation, right? It's like, okay, our culture has changed what families look like, dynamics, and so, okay. My dad didn't necessarily model to me what it looks like to be emotionally attuned or maybe be the most affectionate, just as an example. Mm-hmm. The most affectionate of husbands he provided. Right. But now I'm supposed to. Be this emotionally attuned, present loving, but I didn't have that example. So it's a very kind of conflicted time because we didn't have those examples, and yet we're wanting to create that in our relationship. So there's a lot of change that's required in this time, which can feel challenging at times. How do we do that? I mean, how, Dr. Taz: you know, there's all this talk about family stress and family cortisol, who should work, who should not work? Mm-hmm. Whose career goes first, whose goes second? You know, how you stair step all of [00:31:00] that stuff, you know? And I don't think it's fair to either partner for them to make a choice that they're not a hundred percent comfortable with. Mm-hmm. Right. So how do we set up a modern marriage? Like you and I were joking a little bit, there was the 1950s marriage. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, like, you know, husband went away and everything was beautiful and pretty and you didn't burden them. And it was harmonious, very harmonious, right? Mm-hmm. For the guy because nothing was like. You know, blown up. Mm-hmm. In front of their face. And then we moved away from that to kind of what I call the seventies, eighties, nineties marriages where, you know, women, I felt like were just taking it all on. Mm-hmm. Like still trying to maintain this harmonious environment. And now I feel like we're in this other phase, and I don't have a word for it yet, but where it's like, okay, I'm gonna get married, but I'm out the door in like five seconds if X, Y, and Z goes wrong. Mm-hmm. You know, so, you know, how do we, you know. Preserve the institution of marriage, which I do think, you know, and we can, I don't wanna wax too poetic about it, but I do feel like it's a spiritual journey. It is. And it forces you out of your comfort zone. Mm-hmm. You know, it's [00:32:00] much easier to not be married, but being married is, is a journey. You know? So if we're gonna continue to, you know, talk about marriage as a healthy institution, you know, for families and a way to build and grow families, what, how do we navigate the modern marriage, the marriage of the future, where you have, you know, badass women, marrying badass men mm-hmm. And. Everyone hopefully creating a harmonious family unit. Right? How? How do we do that? Because Jocelyn Freeman: it right now, it really is so much more about partnership, right? Right. It's like I want a partner to grow with, to evolve with. And we also believe it's a spiritual journey. Yeah. We believe it's a self-development journey. Totally. So every challenge, just like parenthood. Yes. Also a spiritual journey. Like Yeah. We're not just equipped to be the best parents, right? There's so much to learn. We also aren't equipped to be the best partners. There's so much to learn. So we view any challenge that shows up in our marriage as something to [00:33:00] teach us, right. To be, become better. That's why we don't back down from it, because otherwise you know what's gonna happen. That challenge will show up in the next relationship. Right? Like that is always the truth. And so we really do encounter challenges with that mindset. So going back to the partnership piece, it's, it's really like, alright, we both want to create a beautiful life. What does fulfillment look like for you? Because I want you to feel so fulfilled in this lifetime. And same for me. So what does supporting each other's journey look like? And that's about communication. That's being able to talk about, yeah, you know what, these are my dreams, these are my goals, this is my vision. Are you on board with that? Mm-hmm. Cool. Okay, let's create that together. Mm-hmm. But what that means is we're gonna have to become the people that can fulfill on that. That's why that growth mindset is so key. Growth mindset. Okay. Let's get back to, I'll just also add, like jump in Aaron Freeman: it. Part is needed, like the cultural shift too, right? Where I feel like it's, it's really been great. So what do you call it? Like self [00:34:00] empowerment. If you think of holistically, you know, we live in a individualistic society, you know? Right. It might say the west is right. Very individual, also driven by consumerism and like marketing. And so, and self care, which is important, has sort of supplanted mutual care. Mm. Mutual care is so piti pivotal to marriage, and I don't wanna say you, you sacrifice yourself, but we've kind of become a little bit too individualistic, selfish, but individualistic and self-focused, where it's more like I put up my boundaries and I have my self-care prioritized over anything else where I need to feel good. So, you know, you take, the kids don't talk to me until I'm, my cup is full and it's not really the case because prosocial behavior. Me doing something for my partner or anyone else causes an increase in serotonin. Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] Oxytocin. Mm-hmm. It boosts the atmosphere. It boosts my or home hormones. Now we're using emotional crossover for our benefit. My raising through mutual care adds to the whole environment of the home. So we can't wait till we, our cup is full, because that's just not how it works. Mutual care and prosocial act behavior actually works. Dr. Taz: Talk to us about mutual care. Give us maybe three examples of what mutual care might look like. And I agree with you. Mm-hmm. Like the, you know, American culture is very individualistic. It's very me, me, me and you see many couples and I go, I'm sure you guys have seen this many couples that this is my thing, this is my thing, but there's not a lot of our things. Mm-hmm. You know, so what does mutual care look like if we wanna start rethinking self-care and moving it to this model? Aaron Freeman: This is, so this, this is great because I like the biohacking stuff too. Yeah. I like cold plunging. Yep. I like red light saunas. Yep. And so if, if her and I are in a conflict, I can go do that and I can be sitting in the cold pledge tub and it down regulates [00:36:00] my emotions to an extent. But I can still be frustrated, Dr. Taz: right? Aaron Freeman: I can still feel upset that she did something. So we're not repaired. So there's no way for me to feel good about the relationship. I can get my nervous system to a level, but mutual care is like, okay, downregulate my own emotions, but let me be willing to come to her first and say, you know what? And I might feel fully justified that she was at fault, Dr. Taz: right? Aaron Freeman: But mutual care would really be like, you know what? Let me see where I can take responsibility. Maybe I made a promise and I didn't follow through. Well, there's an impact there. So let me come to her. I'm regulated 'cause I did my coal plunge, but let me come to her and say, you know what? I take responsibility that I made a promise that I was gonna do X, Y, Z, and I didn't follow through. Probably has. You feel a little bit like you couldn't trust me or that more was put on you and I apologize for that. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Aaron Freeman: Now, I still might have some things I'm upset about. I might be hurt by something. But part of the mutual care is, I'll put that aside, and being willing to repair with [00:37:00] you first, and then now we really activate all these mutual care systems within our body. Jocelyn Freeman: I think to add onto that too, is to really think about, does my partner know today that I love them? You know, we can assume that just because we're there, we're doing our functions, our responsibilities, that they feel loved. Mm. And your presence alone is not enough, doesn't necessarily make them feel loved. And so Aaron has this great challenge that he will offer to husbands when he is talking to them, is, I want you to wake up every single day and ask yourself, does my wife know that I love her today yet? Mm-hmm. And I think of, of course, both partners do that. It doesn't have to be grandiose gestures every single day. We're busy too. Right? We're not saying how you have to be laying out rose petals to dinner every single day. Right. But just the little things that, you know, make your partner feel special, getting their coffee. For them, right? Yeah. Rubbing their back as you walk by. Tiny things. Yeah. All those little, what we call love deposits. Yeah. [00:38:00] Really love deposits. Yeah. Like a bank account, right? Think. Think about the love account. Yeah. Right? So you've got this love account, which is a representation of how loved and connected you feel right now. Right. And just like a bank account, it's a sum of your deposits versus your withdrawals. Yeah. And of course, early in a relationship, you're making a ton of deposits. Mm-hmm. I mean, 'cause you're in the honeymoon stage. Right? Right. So it's all this positive, positive, positive Aaron Freeman: and almost no withdrawals. Right. You just, you grant forgiveness, benefit of the doubt. Right. You let things go. So there's almost no withdrawals in the beginning, Jocelyn Freeman: but the longer you're together, you start to make way more withdrawals and then fewer deposits. Mm-hmm. If you're not being intentional. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. So it's really being conscientious of. What are, what's the ratio of my deposits versus withdrawals from my partner? So that's again, going back to that mutual care is the repair, as Aaron was talking about, but also, am I making my partner feel loved? Dr. Taz: A lot of this too comes back to your own personal health, right? Mm-hmm. And how you're showing up in the relationship. Yeah, right. There are many people that, you know, [00:39:00] we went through this in, in our marriage and have gone through it a couple of times, where somebody's physical health sort of lends itself to a lack of energy, a lack of bandwidth, a lack of regulation. You know, what is the responsibility each person. In a family and in a relationship or marriage in particular has to their own health. You know, like men, and not to knock men. I love men, but not to knock them. I think we as women, because we have a cycle and because we get pregnant and because we breastfeed and then we go into perimenopause and menopause, like we're always aware of what's happening with us physically. We're very like, oh my gosh, what's going on here today? I gained weight, I lost weight. This is hap, you know, all this stuff is constantly happening with us, you know? Whereas men seem to be a little bit more static because they're not sort of driven by this hormonal cycle and these changes that dramatically. They're still really unhealthy. Mm-hmm. You know, and I feel like, you know, as I sit with men, they bring that element of being physically unhealthy, which is then [00:40:00] impacting their mental health and their emotional health into their relationships. And so then when you go and say, Hey, I'd like to communicate, or I don't feel connected, or, you know, I like to do X, Y, and Z, there's no bandwidth. Mm-hmm. There's no reserve left to receive that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And a lot of their, you know, shutting down and checking out or whatever else is purely a lack of energy. Mm-hmm. But that doesn't excuse it. So what do you say about men and how they show up in a relationship from a physical standpoint? Same for women. I'd be curious like if you know what your experience has been with that. Mm-hmm. Aaron Freeman: Yeah, I think it's multi-layered, but if we start with the, like psychological, it's, it's that hero's journey and I think the hero's journey. Is in ways even more important for men and whether it's like stories of like King Arthur or more modern day like even take Harry Potter, men need to feel like they're striving for something, right? That brings purpose, that brings meaning to their own individual life. And I think men need that. We all [00:41:00] need that. It's part of this balance between what we are really out to achieve together. So there's like a collaborative vision for the marriage, but men really need to feel, which we often do. I'm saying we as in men, right? When we're on a sports team earlier on, uh, when we're in our early education, like we're striving for a degree or we're striving for getting a certain job, there's this goal that we strive for. And so that puts us on a hero's journey, and men need that. But as we get further into our life, we don't then remake what that is. Mm. Right. So we're in a marriage, we're in our job. We need a new aim. You need to set a new hero's journey for yourself because that creates a spark that creates the meaning and the purpose that you strive for. And when you have that thing, that is the internal passion. We just know that our physical body needs to be a match to that. So we will look at our nutrition, we'll look at our natural, look at that. But I think we need the psychological aim, and I think that [00:42:00] then pulls you down into, well, I want my body to feel that it can have the energy for that purpose. Now, everything you said, now I have more energy for the marriage, for my partner. It just really builds upon itself. Jocelyn Freeman: As you were asking the question, the words that came to me were around self-esteem and coping mechanisms. Right. So I really think about for either one of us, if we weren't taking care of ourselves, our mind, our body, our soul, our self-esteem would be lower. Or if not even our health too. Right. If, if we weren't feeling good professionally. Right. Which there have been times even where I'm like, you know, comparing myself Yes. All the time. And so if my self-esteem is lower for any reason, that's of course going to show up. If he were to bring up a, a topic in our marriage, I would maybe be more sensitive to that. So, I mean, definitely there are times where we'll be in sessions and either partner, maybe they were laid off right. Or they have, um, had a really hard time with a child. Right, right. So they're feeling like [00:43:00] inadequate, like they're not doing a good job. They might not say it. 'cause we all have pride, right. Like I'm fine. I'm good. I got this. Yeah. Right. But really deep down, when when they open up and they get vulnerable, it's like I'm not feeling good about myself. Mm-hmm. And so that's going to of course be reflected in your interactions. And then the other word around coping mechanisms. I mean, as adults, I think that's so important that we're always checking in. How are we taking care of ourselves when we're stressed? And so we actually, one thing we're going on five plus years now, we have not had a drip of alcohol. Dr. Taz: Mm, interesting. And it Jocelyn Freeman: was because, I mean, well you Dr. Taz: have to talk about that. Yeah. Well he Jocelyn Freeman: started, you started to just really not like the way you were feeling. I started having like a allergic reactions. I wasn't sleeping at night, so I was like, this isn't even fun. Yeah. And I come from a whole family of alcoholism and addiction. And so I was just like, you know what? Not, I'm having reactions. I'm not sleeping well. I come from a line of addiction, like why would I do this? Thankfully now there's a lot of great, you know, [00:44:00] mocktails. Mocktails are the thing. Right? Right. Like even last night I had non-alcoholic tequila. Yeah. In a margarita. I'm like, how does this exist? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. But we also, we met in a gym, thankfully. Working out has always been a value of ours. Right. I think if either one of us wasn't taking care of ourselves, we would check in on each other. Yeah. You know, hey, like you haven't maybe seemed like yourself, but again, we just really believe we aren't gonna show up as the best partners, parents or people if we aren't really thinking about the whole like ecosystem of we as we've been talking about. Right. Dr. Taz: And I think, you know, for women, the self-esteem. Piece shows up in different ways. Mm-hmm. Through physical appearance, through, you know, for women, a lot of it's tied to what's happening at home. Yes. I've noticed. Even if they're maybe even struggling at work, but I think the home is, is a very important piece for women, for men, it's the workplace, right? Mm-hmm. They need that hero's journey. They need that like accomplishment, drive, and if something goes wrong there, then that can definitely impact their self-esteem. [00:45:00] How do you help men? I've sat with men and I can actually see their faces as we're talking, but you know who are in it. They have like the kids and the wife and there's disconnection and the kids are demanding and there's financial pressure, and they just feel. Kind of trapped and hopeless. Mm-hmm. And some of them may engage in destructive behaviors. Mm-hmm. Right. Which we can talk about in just a second. But, um, how, how do you guide men out of that space? You know, because I think that can be a loop that they stay in and no matter how much communication you try or connection, you try. If they're in that loop, they have a really hard time seeing their way out of it. Mm-hmm. Aaron Freeman: You know, what comes to me, not as like a specific answer, but it's like even all the data shows. Yeah. Women are so much better at maintaining relationships. And so as men get older, and I just, I just turned 40. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Aaron Freeman: We just don't have the same friendships like men maintaining mm-hmm. [00:46:00] Authentic, deep. Also just fun friendships where you go and do kind of men type of things that. Elicit testosterone. Dr. Taz: Right. Aaron Freeman: Um, I think that's a big missing. Mm-hmm. You know, and it's, we don't necessarily know the answer because men just don't have that same nurturing relationship type of thing. I think we're more proximity driven, so it's, you know, my coworkers, we haven't stayed in touch with, you know, some people over the years or we've changed as individuals and so we don't know where to go. It's harder for men just to strike up conversation Right. With another man. Right. Because we feel Dr. Taz: weird Aaron Freeman: about it. Weird about it for some reason. Right. But most of the men I talked to would love that. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Aaron Freeman: But we just have this kind of shield or shell. That it is some kind of a gender stereotype that you don't just go up to another guy. Uh, but most of the men I've talked to and been approached like, man, we met at a gym, and that, that can become a really strong friendship pretty quickly. Jocelyn Freeman: Yeah. I also think too, just, I'm not a men, but I [00:47:00] talk to a lot of men, right? Yeah, of course. And I research. Yeah. You know, men and, and women is, there's still a shift happening. It's, it's way different now than it was decades before of really like men acknowledging what they're feeling. Mm. Letting themselves say, I'm overwhelmed, or I'm stressed, or I'm not feeling adequate or successful or, I, I, I mean, there was one husband in particular, he comes right to my mind is. They had two young kids, beautiful home. Right. This marriage, fam, even family lived near them. So they had all this formula, this support. Yeah. But he was in a job that when he got really honest, he was like, I actually don't think I'm equipped for this job. Mm. And how that was manifesting was he was very reactive, very getting quick to anger. And so once he started to acknowledge, wow, I, I either need more training or maybe I actually need a different position in this, because he was trying to be someone he wasn't. Right. And so there was just like some, like having to fake it. And so I think, again, just my observation with men is like [00:48:00] being able to just, whether they wanna talk to a friend, their spouse, a therapist, an AA group, anyone to just Right. Acknowledge how they're feeling instead of masking it and then compensating. Right. Alcohol, different substances. There's a whole other, there's a whole list. Right. Yeah. And, and really let's talk about that list for like, men have feelings too. Dr. Taz: A second though. Like, you know, because I think men hit a breaking point. Mm-hmm. And then engage in behavior X, Y, or Z. Yeah. Right. So I. What would you tell men, you know, and women or anybody in a marriage? Honestly, like what are the signs and symptoms? Why do people cheat? You know, how do you turn around from that? Mm-hmm. Is that possible? Like, you know, cheating to me is equivalent to drug abuse, you know, all the other, all the other behaviors that you know. Mm-hmm. Lack emotional regulation basically. So, so how do you. How do you, like, help people out of those particular situations and pro, you know, [00:49:00] maybe practice a more preventive approach? Yeah, Jocelyn Freeman: we, we would focus on the prevention because we don't focus on couples who are, you know, dealing with infidelity. We would refer them elsewhere. That's not our specialty. But on the prevention side, it really comes down to talking about your boundaries. Hmm. And we think about boundaries in two ways. The boundaries between you two. Then the boundaries around your relationship and being able to realize, you know, I can't be naive and just think, oh, I'm a good person, so therefore I would never do anything like that. Right, right. And so even couples recently that we've talked to where there was even just some struggle to trust each other even though nothing had happened yet. Right. One partner traveled a lot for work. Yeah. And some of they thought it was okay, but they would have drinks and there were male and female colleagues, and then they wouldn't get to the room till midnight. And when they would talk, it's like, well, one of them's really cute. And you just, you can't be naive. You really have to think what are the boundaries and the ways that we're gonna protect our [00:50:00] relationship. Mm. From any external influence. Right. And so just, I think it's that open, honest. Communication with each other and ourselves. Yeah. You know, I, this is an important relationship, so therefore I want to protect it. Dr. Taz: Do you find that men or women don't take care of themselves and then are more vulnerable to these external influences? Does that happen? Jocelyn Freeman: I, we, again, we, it's not like a main focus for us. Yeah. But it definitely, men and women can be not taking care of themselves, not feel good, not be communicating, and then when they're not communicating Right, our attention can go elsewhere. Right. Okay. So like temptation can really. Happen for anyone when they're like, well, I'm not getting what I want or need here. But it's like, have you talked about it? Right. Have you tried to address that as opposed to Yeah. Coping elsewhere. Dr. Taz: And I feel like for a lot of the women that I sit with, too many women think that it's their responsibility or they're feeling burned out in a way that they're trying to keep the marriage going. Mm-hmm. Or the relationship going, they're doing all the work. They're arranging the dinners and [00:51:00] the vacations and the fun activities. Yeah. And they're responsible for, like, one friend of mine I, you know, was cracking me up. She's like, I do the play dates for my husband. Yeah. I'm in charge of play dates for him. Mm-hmm. Like I'm in charge of his social group. The mental load. Exactly. Mm-hmm. You know, why is that happening today? Yeah. And like what would we tell women to do differently? What would we tell men? Yeah. You know? Aaron Freeman: Yeah. I think it. It comes down to, you know, there's even personality traits called like agreeableness. And so I think men have tended, and it comes from like an initially good intent, but men can become more agreeable. Mm-hmm. But to not just a level of being considerate, but that you're actually being compliant. And that's like a really key distinction. Like you wanna be agreeable to where you're considering each other's needs and opinions and ideas, and you can share with one another. And there's openness to hearing the needs and following through on them for each other, but. Men I have seen also then are less assertive. So we become less assertive and more [00:52:00] agreeable from a compliance standpoint. So all that being said, it's like I'm just a yes man. Mm. My partner suggests something. Yeah, let's do that. But that's not happy wife, happy life. That's not, that's not good at all. Yeah. And because it's like, I don't want to challenge or I don't want to cause conflict. And so that's the gray line. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Aaron Freeman: I'm not, I'm not challenging you. I'm not, you're bringing something to me. I'm not saying I don't like that, but I need to be more proactive and more assertive about what I do want and what I don't want. And even if it's contrary, it's like, well, let me provide an alternative. I'm not just shooting my partner's ideas down. So then what can women do better of, I think a little bit more openness so that we feel accepted. So if I'm gonna bring something to you, especially if I haven't been as assertive, I bring an idea to you. Do not shoot it down Dr. Taz: right away. Yeah. Aaron Freeman: Allow it. Let a lot of women do that. Ruminate. Let's talk about it because it might seem not a big deal to a female partner to say, oh, let, let's not do [00:53:00] that. Let's not eat there. Right. Let's not try that. I don't wanna do that vacation. But for a man that's not as open to being assertive and proactive, it's the smallest thing that will feel like a rejection now. Mm. So it's rejection. Yeah. And not, not even like, wow, it's not malicious. Right. It's just that okay, something's been brewing. I haven't been saying it, so I, I may even say it pretty passively, Dr. Taz: right. Aaron Freeman: But if it seems like it's rejected now, I'm not gonna do that again. So now I'm back in the Yes man. The compliance and resentment is really starting to build for me to where now my psychology is saying, my partner doesn't care about my ideas. Um, I'm just functioning. I'm just someone that is only here to provide financial security. That's, it's just a bad path. It's a, a bad path to go down beyond. So Jocelyn Freeman: I also think about, in addition to personality, going back to even just modeling, I think it's really important that both partners, whether they're early in their relationship or even like when you go through a big transition, like having kids, right, to really openly [00:54:00] talk about what was modeled to you, right? What did you witness your dad do, your mom do? Do you think that's right? Do you think that we would wanna do things differently? Because we can by default just repeat. Like, well, that's what they did. That's how they operated. So, so you, a lot of, Dr. Taz: uh, couples today, you know, are of course raising children together, but some of them are even in business together. Yeah. Right. Working together. And there's some dynamics that come out from there as well. Some do it very successfully, some not so much, and it actually blows things apart, you know. Could we give anyone listening, just some tools, like what would you tell them as they're raising children, building businesses, working together? Mm-hmm. You know, what are some big red flags or some maybe just proactive preventive tools Yeah. To make sure everything that they're working for stays intact. Jocelyn Freeman: Yeah. So I would say absolutely a daily quick check-in. Okay. With each other and not a, Hey, did you pick that up at the store? Hey, what's, what do we need to do in the morning? Again, an emotional check-in. As simple as, Hey [00:55:00] babe, I know you've been like really working hard on that. How's that going for you? An emotional check-in every single day. Then a weekly. A little bit more in depth what we call a family meeting, and that is a little bit longer of just a check-in of making sure. Yes. How are we both doing? Let's check in on that love account. We actually have couples ask on a scale of zero to 10, where's your love account at? Mm. Because then you can catch it rather than like, it's been a few weeks of declining. You can catch it when it's a six instead of a two. So that's a big piece as well. Then is there anything we need to clean up between us? So we're big on prevention and proactive communication, so that daily quick check-in and then a longer weekly check-in, uh, going into the love account. Anything to clean up between us, those go a very long way. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Jocelyn Freeman: So would you say Dr. Taz: five minutes a day minimum? Mm-hmm. Yep. Couple of hours a week. Mm-hmm. Minimum of really Aaron Freeman: diving in, especially if you're gonna try to work together. Yeah. That's Dr. Taz: amazing. And Jocelyn Freeman: also because we do work together, we can [00:56:00] say making it very clear when we don't wanna talk about business stuff too, like really having a time. I've always wondered how people navigate that one. We'll just openly say, Hey, I don't wanna, let's not talk business stuff right now. Oh my gosh. 'cause otherwise it can bleed into dinner and you're on a walk and you're talking about it and it just starts to feel like there's no, so then is separate relationship, is it important for Dr. Taz: families and those couples to cultivate interest outside of, of course. Like the to-do list. Yeah. You know, of Jocelyn Freeman: course. Yeah. Whether you're like, we're. Going on a bucket list trip to Banff Canada coming up. Oh, fun. Yeah. So talk about the trip. Yeah, talk about a goal, a vision, something with our daughter. Even just like funny lighthearted conversations. Something we read in the news. Or a funny clip, like definitely nurturing the friendship too. Nurturing the romantic relationship so it doesn't start to feel like it's just business. Dr. Taz: So many great tools I've had. I have so many like buzzwords in my head now. Emotional crossover. Yeah. Emotional. Spillover. Yeah. Your love account. Yeah. Are you in a love debt or love surplus? Mm-hmm. Or withdrawals? [00:57:00] Uh, you know, so much, so many great tools to hopefully help marriages and families thrive. I think marriage satisfaction is something we need to think about. I think we do need to acknowledge all the forces at play. Mm-hmm. Which is your physical health, your mental health, your emotional health individually. But we do need to start thinking about health and ecosystems. Mm-hmm. And marriage has its own health barometer. Huge. And I think that's something that we really need to get the message out, and both partners are responsible for, for managing that. If you had one last piece of parting advice to everybody listening, oh, what would you tell them? Jocelyn Freeman: Gosh. I think just really to prioritize your relationship, to make sure that in addition to the amount that you give to your kids, to your career, to yourself, to make sure that your relationship is thriving. Mm-hmm. What would you say? Aaron Freeman: Just, it's been so helpful just to see marriage as a evolving journey and on that journey, like the most important thing, even with some psychology, uh, theories, is adaptability. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Aaron Freeman: You have to recognize that I'm on my own journey spiritually, [00:58:00] that I'm here to fulfill on what my soul came here to do. Recognize that my partner is here on the same journey. I think when we see each other as very rigid, there you are again. I know exactly how you're gonna respond. You fit them into this box, then there's no curiosity. Dr. Taz: Yeah. Aaron Freeman: So recognizing that we're both on our own individual soul journeys. We came together for a larger purpose, that that marriage journey is gonna evolve. Then there's a lot more curiosity, there's a lot more future focus, there's a lot more interest in how can I support you being. The person you're meant to be as well. So all of that's been really important as we go through seasons. Dr. Taz: And I think the biggest takeaway that, you know, I hope everyone kind of latches into, is you have to have a growth mindset. Yes. As partners, as parents, you know, we have to have that growth mindset to really allow that family stability, that family vision, that family connection mm-hmm. To take place. And that brings about marriage satisfaction. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. My final question. Yes. My favorite question is what makes you whole? And you can both answer. Jocelyn Freeman: Mm. I wonder if Dr. Taz: you're gonna answer [00:59:00] the same. Oh wait. You're gonna steal each other's answers. All right. I'll let you go first. Jocelyn Freeman: That is such a deep and difficult question, right. To answer what makes me whole, I mean, lately it has been having a larger spiritual perspective. Mm. Yeah. To really look at anything that's happening as it's happening for me and just to, rather than kind of reducing it to just. Getting things done or why is this happening? So just the larger spiritual perspective and to being connected to that. Yeah. Dr. Taz: I love that. Mm-hmm. Actually is Aaron Freeman: the same. I was, I didn't know if we were gonna have the same. Okay, got it. But yeah, it is, uh, this certainty that. Everything that happens in our life, you know, to be general like it actually is for a purpose. And even things that are bad that seem to be obstacles in the short term are actually for the evolution of our souls that ultimately everything does lead to. Our own benefit. Dr. Taz: I think if we could get that message to everybody entering into marriage mm-hmm. Then we would see marriage very differently. Mm-hmm. Right. It is [01:00:00] about a soul journey and an evolution and learning lessons and kind of breaking through that. Mm-hmm. And, and really modeling that for your children, for them to carry forward. 1%. This has been so great. This has, I love this episode. Well, me too. Thank you both for taking time out to join me today. I appreciate it. Maybe share with our listeners and viewers, like where they can find more information about you. Jocelyn Freeman: Yeah. So our website and our Instagram handle is Meet the Freemans, meet the free, so you go to meet the Freemans. Everything's on there. Our, we have in-person workshops. We have challenges. We'll be announcing our next book, but we can't say the title yet. Okay. I was gonna, but that'll be coming in the coming months. Excellent. Uh, so everything's there. Meet Dr. Taz: the free minutes. Amazing. Yeah. Well, thank you both for your time today. I so appreciate it. And for everybody else watching and listening, remember we share new episodes every week. This is a good one. Make sure you share it with all the families and couples that you know. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Whole Plus, be sure to share this episode with your friends and family. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe to [01:01:00] this podcast on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. To engage with the community, follow at Live Whole Plus and check out our website whole plus.co. That's HOL ps.co. For more resources and information on holistic health, see you next time.