Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Setting Boundaries in High Conflict: Your Questions About Difficult Relationships
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to It's All Your Fault On TruStoryFM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you with the most challenging human interactions, those involving high conflict people. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:21): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:22): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute and conflict influencer.com, where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict, both in professional life and in personal life. So we are back and happy to see you, bill, and we're really grateful to you listeners for tuning in and if you're watching us on YouTube. Hello. So as you all know, we took a little hiatus in a little bit of July and all of August and we've been addressing listener questions since then because a bunch came in during those two months. So we're going to continue with that today. So Bill, here's a question from Mike. I have one of these high conflict individuals in my life and I can't seem to shake myself loose from her. My ex-girlfriend moved in two years ago. I broke up with her, so I'm assuming she was a girlfriend. So his now ex-girlfriend moved in two years ago. I broke up with her, paid her nearly $20,000 to leave, but she's still here. She now has no job and doesn't seem to have any ambition to get on with her life. And I have strong conflicts evicting her as she will be homeless. I tried to leave in a victory in November, but she became suicidal. I feel at a loss and could use some direction. So sounds like someone with a big heart, but feeling kind of stuck. So let's say you Bill, Speaker 2 (02:07): Well, this kind of fits into our newest book coming out in November, which is SLIC solutions. SL stands for setting limits and IC stands for imposing Consequences. Sounds like you've set limits, you've said you need to leave and we're over, but it doesn't sound like that there's clear consequences. And so this is where I think your attention really needs to focus is what consequences you're ready to impose. Now, one of the things we talk about in the book is getting yourself ready, and that sounds like the position you're in right now. She's threatening suicide. She hasn't done what you asked her to do, and this all sounds like a possible high conflict person. And with high conflict people setting limits as meaningless unless there's consequences that follow and they need to be credible. So let's think about this. She's threatening suicide, which is a common manipulation of some people, and yet you can't let that hold you hostage. Speaker 2 (03:30): So one of the things I want to suggest is that you meet with a local therapist and talk about steps to kicking her out, essentially steps to having her have consequences when she's out. You could change the locks if you don't want to have the police drag her out. If it's your place, then you have a right to exclude other people. So I'd suggest you talk with a therapist to work on those steps and walk through maybe even things you might say to your ex-girlfriend, be prepared, which is becoming a theme. Sure. Was dealing with high conflict behavior because in many ways it is predictable. So what we see is often high conflict. People switch back and forth between anger and sweetness and pleading. It's like, oh no, don't do this to me. How I love you and how you really love me and all that. Speaker 2 (04:40): And then well, if you're really going to do this, then I'm going to punch you in the face and scream that you're beating me up or something. So don't be surprised. You get the full spectrum of emotions and behaviors. So that's why walking it through with a therapist kind of if I do this, then what will her move be? If she does that, what should I do? Because we can't, certainly can't give you legal advice, therapeutic device, et cetera here, but those are general principles. Don't let yourself be held ho by someone threatening suicide. You may have a plan where if they say, well then I'm going to kill myself, then you call 9 1 1 while they're right there and say, my girlfriend's here threatening to kill herself. I think we need some help. So don't let her prevent you from doing what you need to do to be able to have a healthy and happy life. Speaker 1 (05:39): So just as an aside for those not from the us, 9 1 1 is our emergency services number, so I'm sure you have this, an emergency services number in your country. So Bill, there's a couple things here. I think this is so hard for some people to do because it sounds harsh. It's like setting limits, imposing consequences, making someone homeless. And I've had people say to me, I can't make my adult child homeless by cutting them off from the ATM machine, taking on the responsibility of saying I'm making that person homeless. So it's like you're imposing a consequence on yourself. So I think it is something that you have to overcome because I think Mike would probably have less of a problem doing this with a roommate who's been a stranger up until the time they move in. And then let's say the roommate's throwing parties and not paying rent. It's probably a lot easier to evict that person than someone you've loved and someone who's holding you hostage with those suicide attempts or threats of suicide, I should say. And to that point, you mentioned, bill, that suicide is used as a manipulation, which could get some people who are listening to this upset just using the word manipulation Speaker 2 (06:55): Sometimes. Speaker 1 (06:57): So you're saying sometimes it's a threat, sometimes it's a manipulation. The point I'm trying to get to is that it's a manipulation, but not necessarily a conscious manipulation. It's more of a subconscious way of coping, of trying to survive, of trying to stay attached to this person. Perhaps not in every situation, but it could be that. So I just wanted to say that because some are somewhat sensitive around that word manipulation and while technically it is, it's also a coping strategy. Speaker 2 (07:33): Absolutely. Yeah. And I guess I'm saying sometimes because sometimes they're about to do it and so it isn't just a gesture, sometimes it's a gesture, but for example, people with borderline personality disorder threaten suicide much more than the average person, but they also commit suicide more than the average person. So it does need to be taken seriously and kind of weighed out. What do you do? It's interesting, Marshall Lanahan who developed dialectical behavior therapy, DBT, talks about strategies for dealing with patients of therapists who are threatening suicide, how the therapist should deal with that. And she has an interesting analysis, and that is suicide isn't the problem, suicide is a solution to another problem. And you want to help the patient look at what is that other problem and what are other solutions. And I think you're absolutely right, Megan, that this is often not a conscious thought out thing. It's like they really feel it in the moment they go, well, then I'll go kill myself Speaker 1 (08:52): Because it's painful and that doesn't like other options are solutions, right? Speaker 2 (08:58): Yeah. They feel overwhelmed easily. And that may be what's happening in this situation if she doesn't have a job, she's kind of frightened to go out into the world and sees suicide as that'll just answer all the problems. And yet over and over again, people that make attempts and don't succeed say, I really now realize I do want to live and I didn't want to really kill myself. But that's why I think seeing a therapist get some ideas, maybe you can get that person to see a therapist, to get some hope, some strategies, how to get back on their feet. I also want to mention, I worked when I was a therapist, I've worked with several parents of adult children who were between about 20 and 35 who they wanted to have leave the house and they refused to leave and said, I'll be homeless and this and that. Speaker 2 (10:02): And I think especially people who may have addictions, alcoholism, other drug addictions. And I remember working with one couple and their adult son is probably over 30, said, well then I'll be homeless, I'll be out in the street. And they said, that's going to be your choice, but you can't continue to live here. And he ended up leaving and being homeless for a while and I guess he had his cell phone or something and called them from time to time and they actually visited him wherever he was being homeless. My recollection is he eventually went into a drug and alcohol treatment. Often they say with alcohol and drug treatment that you have to hit bottom, that your life just really, it has to be clear to you that you can't get any worse. And sometimes that's people living on the street going, how did this happen to me? I've got to get some help. So no one simple answer, but those are things to consider Speaker 1 (11:12): In a way she's keeping this gentleman kind of hostage, right? He's given, given and given, and yet his needs and his wishes are not being respected at all. So I kind of like to look at it, the setting limits piece as here's what I'm going to do. I think it's so hard for so many people who are conflict avoiders or they're afraid of having that on their conscience that she committed suicide. So they have that thought and it just becomes pervasive and it's hard to take that leap, so to speak, of saying, here's what's best for me. But what I'm trying to say here is it's also best for her as well. Speaker 1 (12:01): Can you accelerate her healing and learning lessons? We all have to learn some hard lessons. Now she may go attached to someone else. This gentleman may be afraid that she'll bang on his door, she'll go to his work and make problems at work. I've worked with many clients like that. They're afraid that they've already had bad experiences where the ex has called the workplace and made allegations or just caused disruptions. But it's taking courage and like you said, get some help with it. Take a staged approach and do what's best for you while you still care for this person. Okay, both can happen at the same time. Speaker 2 (12:47): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (12:49): Alright, well here's one from Leonard in Sweden. Hi Leonard. Leonard says, hi. I would like to thank you for the work you're doing. You're welcome. Your podcast has helped me a lot in my professional life. I remembered one specific video where Bill talks about four stages that a high conflict person may respond to when criticized. The first step was denying that it had happened by taking some time to think about the response. The second was to blame it on others. The third step was to play a victim, and the last stage was to blame it all on you. I've ended up in situations where it's exactly those stages that the person is going through and it helped me a lot when Bill pointed out those stages. I do know that it's a big failure from my side if I end up in such a conflict and that you need to work with ear statements, but it's also good to know how to handle a failed conversation. However, I can't find that video where Bill talks about the four statements. Could you talk about those stages again? Speaker 2 (13:50): Well, I can talk about these strategies. I also don't remember doing a four stage video. I don't either. There there's two possibilities here. One is that it was long ago and far away in my memory. The other is that it may have actually been somebody else because these are some general patterns of behavior for high conflict people. Speaker 1 (14:16): There's another possibility. Speaker 2 (14:18): Oh, good. Speaker 1 (14:19): And that he had said at the end of his message that apologizing for English as a second language, so to speak. So it could be that the word stages is not maybe the way that we would think of it. So four stages that a high conflict person may respond to when criticized. Speaker 2 (14:39): Yeah. So these are common characteristics. Blame is the biggest one that the high conflict, people just go right away to blame. It's all your fault. No, I didn't do anything wrong. It's all your fault. And that's the common bottom line approach. But I think this kind of, if you have a criticism for a high conflict person, then what we talk about is like the four step cars method, CARS, standing for connecting, analyzing, responding, and setting limits. And with this, the first is you try to connect with the person. Think of something you can say that shows empathy, attention, or respect for them so that they don't just feel overwhelmed with criticism. Second is to talk about analyze options. What are the choices now? So you might say, I understand that you're upset. This is a hard time. Let's look at what your choices are now. Speaker 2 (15:49): So rather than criticizing the person as a person, as their behavior, hoping to get insight from them is don't focus them inward. Focus them outward on what they can do now, because usually criticisms will high conflict people backfire because you're trying to give them insight into their own behavior and it ain't going to happen. Never. They're not going to have the insight and they're not going to like you even more. So if there was four things I may have talked about, it may have been four things to avoid. So avoid criticizing high conflict people trying to give them insight into themselves. Avoid focusing on the past. Last week you did such and such, Speaker 1 (16:39): The most tempting thing to do in the world. Speaker 2 (16:42): Yeah. So focus on the future. Focus on their choices. Don't open up emotions. Don't say, can I tell you how angry I am with you? It's not going to work. Save your anger for somewhere else. Maybe be in sports or something. But sta clear of emotion, they can't manage their emotions is often driving their bad behavior. So don't try for insight. Don't emphasize the past, don't emphasize emotions. And of course don't label them anything. Go, I figured you out and you're a high conflict person. That never goes over well. A lot of family relationships have ended at least for a while over that kind of feedback. Those are just some general things. But the idea of criticizing high conflict people, generally there's no value to doing that. I forgot I was doing connecting, analyzing, responding to any misinformation. Here's some information you may not. They may have distorted things because it's common for high conflict people to distort things and then setting limits rather than criticize them for their behavior. Speaker 2 (18:01): Say, if this behavior continues, then here's what I'm going to have to do. Impose and consequence. You keep talking to me that way. I'm not going to criticize you for how you're talking. I'm just going to have to end the conversation and don't say out loud, I'm not going to criticize you. That itself is a criticism. But think that to yourself and then think, no, I've got to set limits and impose consequences. That's where the action is. If there's some behavior you don't like, don't argue with it. Criticize it, set limits and impose consequences and move on. Speaker 1 (18:41): Setting limits is very empowering and it's a gift. It's a gift you give yourself and it's a gift you give the other person and they're not always going to like it. Some will back down because they need someone to just set a limit. But others, a lot of high conflict people are used to getting kind of bulldozing their way through things and people are afraid to say something to stand up and set that limit. Stand up for themselves. So you're helping the whole situation. You're helping both sides, and it's just not okay for people to bully and bulldoze. So setting limits, let's go back for a second. Talk about responding to misinformation. I think we kind of talk quickly about this a lot and we talk about Biff responding to hostile emails, but responding to misinformation. Let's dig a little deeper. Why are we getting misinformation in a high conflict, maybe conversation or situation? What's happening? What's causing it? Speaker 2 (19:46): I think part of what drives high conflict situations is the high conflict personality. And part of the personality is a tendency to think in distorted terms. One of the most common distortions is all or nothing thinking it's all your fault. Instead of, I think you have a problem, I'd like you to change your behavior with me instead. It's just like it's all your fault. And so when you hear that, you get defensive either way. So someone says it's all your fault and you're being reasonable. Well now you get defensive. No, no, you're a difficult person. It's mostly your fault. Well, that doesn't help. That's the criticism that you want to set limits instead of criticizing. So all or nothing thinking emotional reasoning. I feel it's true. So I know it's true. You're talking about being behind my back to my best friends. Well, it may not at all be true, but they feel it's true. And so that's emotional reasoning, jumping to conclusion, Speaker 1 (20:56): That feeling then drives every decision. Speaker 2 (20:59): Yes. The feeling, the see, and I'm glad you point that out. So the distorted thoughts trigger feelings, and the feelings drive the behavior. And so people say, somebody's acting badly. Well, the thing is to get back to what's the thought driving that? And you can change your thoughts. That's the whole basis of cognitive therapy. I did cognitive therapy for three, four years with clients with depression, with anxiety, but they also developed it for personality disorders. And different personality disorders have different types of distortions, and yet you can teach people to challenge their extreme thoughts, their all or nothing thinking emotional reasoning and learn to replace it with more flexible thinking. Those types of things. Speaker 1 (21:57): In your role as a therapist or are you saying you can help them just in conversation? Because what I've observed is watching, you can see the feelings driving the thoughts and decisions, not just behaviors, but the thoughts and decisions that people are making. It's informed by this strong, strong feeling. It makes it distorted, it comes out with misinformation. It puts them, like we say, not connecting in a position of not connecting the dots back to their own behaviors. And it just seems reasonable. And because this feeling is so strong, Speaker 2 (22:34): And I think for people with personality disorders that it often is the way you're seeing it is the feeling then drives the thought and the behavior and that the feelings well up. I mean, we've talked to one of the experts on borderline personality disorders, a woman who says that she's in recovery from borderline personality disorder and that that's very much that things would bubble up inside her that she knew logically she shouldn't act on, but she still acted on 'em. Marshall Lanahan, who I mentioned earlier, talks about the wise mind. Someone was at a group therapy meeting and didn't like something and got up to leave. It's like, well then I'm leaving. And Marshall Lanahan says, what does Wise mind say? And the person says, wise Mind says to stay, but I'm leaving. Anyway, Speaker 1 (23:33): Big feelings. Speaker 2 (23:35): So the big feelings just take over. And it's so hard. I empathize with people, they didn't decide, now I'm going to feel overwhelmed and angry. It just pops up. But they've learned. And that's a benefit of the DBT therapy. You can over time learn to redirect your thoughts and to turn those feelings around and have them less and less often. Speaker 1 (24:04): That's great. I love talking about this. There's hope. There's hope. There's definitely hope. Alright, thank you. Let's go on to a question from tb. My partner and I both have high conflict parents. I read the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, and I found it very unhelpful. Neither of us have trouble standing up to our parents, but so often the answer is just distance yourself. What happens when they are your aging parents? What happens when you need them to help with childcare? What happens when they expect to live with you one day? It is amazing. My partner and I are as well adjusted as we are, but that is because we consciously chose not to be like our parents. What do you do when you have to be close to people who are constantly histrionic and make you miserable, but escaping them is not really a possibility. How can I force them out of my house every time they start screaming without picking them up and setting them outside? I just got a visual of that. So there's quite a few questions here, but I think the first questions are a bit rhetorical, but what happened? The realities are I have to take care of my aging parents and maybe there's two sets of parents, we've got a lot of 'em to take care of. We need their help along the way. What happens if they expect to live with you and are you supposed to live in misery? So these are the real situations that people have to deal with. It's reality. Speaker 2 (25:37): Yeah, this is a lot of why we talk about managing the relationship that family members are often the ones that you're least able to permanently disconnect from and don't necessarily need to permanently disconnect from. But learning to manage the relationship. And this may, well, I generally approach things with the cars method. I think to myself, what could I say that's a connecting statement. How can I help them analyze their options? How can I respond to misinformation that they often may start spewing at you? And then bottom line, we're back to setting limits and imposing consequences. So I think with family members, especially if you're in a couple relationship and I think, yeah, my partner and I, so I think the thing is talk through the predictable situations that they're going to come over for a couple minutes to say hi, and they're almost going to move in. Speaker 2 (26:52): And so be prepared for what to say. And generally saying things that show empathy, attention and respect are the better things to say. Then talk about options. And it may be they come by and you may say, we need to leave in an hour so you can come in for 10 minutes and then leave. Or we're just going to have to reschedule another time and you won't be able to come in now. So you can turn setting limits and imposing consequences into a choice. So you want to come in for 10 minutes or do you want to schedule another time? But we're going to have to leave a little bit after that or in an hour you can decide what your timeframe is. Think of what happens if they don't follow the limit that you set. So if they come in and they're seated and it's 10 minutes and they're just winding up and you have to leave, you can say you need to leave. And if you don't leave now, we're not going to be able to do these drop-in types of visits again, because obviously you're not able to respect our needs. And you can often turn it into this is what we need for us that we're setting this limit. Speaker 1 (28:25): So Speaker 2 (28:26): Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 1 (28:28): So I think I just have Speaker 2 (28:31): This, I see the gears turning. Speaker 1 (28:32): Yes, yes. I think that the really challenging part of it is we're such a nice society, we're so polite and you're looking at, we talk in the cars method with connecting with ear statements, which is they're kind, they're respectful, they're giving someone an empathy, attention and respect. And on the other hand, now we're setting limits which sound, which feel harsh because they're different from ear. So there's this kind of dichotomy of softness over here and harshness over here. So how do you find that balance between the two? Speaker 2 (29:11): I think it really is kind of a tough love philosophy that you can say, we'd love to visit with you for short visits, but if you then don't leave, it makes the visits unpleasant for us. And we need to know that you respect our boundaries. And I know this is hard to hear, but we have other obligations and choices that we need to be able to make. I think part of it is being matter of fact as well as saying, we care about you, we love you, we respect you to be able to say those things. And we also, we have limits too. And what's tricky is with one's parents, it's hard because they're your parents. You have a lifelong relationship history with them. That visual of picking them up and setting them outside is kind of finding verbal ways to accomplish that. Although one thing to keep in mind is as your parents age, they're going to get smaller and lighter. You may have to pick them up someday, bill. But the idea I think is to combine the tough part of setting limits with the love part saying, I'm doing this for us and for you. It's not healthy for you to make us uncomfortable all the time. And so it's time for you to go, we need to end the visit now and then we'll really look forward to seeing you next time. Speaker 1 (30:56): Yeah, it's really a lot about respecting yourself and who you are and that you should, you're allowed to have rights to your own home and to not be yelled at and have poor behavior happening, whether your home or if you're visiting someone else or you're out in public or whatever. And I think we just forget that because we think we need to be polite and nice. But think of yourself if you need to tap into being a judge, judges use rules and laws and order. Go on YouTube like I do. I nerd out on the murder trials and watch how a judge handles a courtroom and they can do it with a lot of structure and with firm boundaries and guidelines and order and all of that. And they aren't nasty about it. They're just, matter of fact, I think, bill, you said those words. Matter of fact, that's really key. You can just be matter of fact and say what you need to say about what my needs are. I need my home to be a pleasant place without yelling. And if you can be in my home without yelling, great. If not, we're going to need to take a break, at least for now. Speaker 2 (32:11): And that's giving them a choice, Speaker 1 (32:12): But let's try it again. Speaker 2 (32:14): Exactly. That's a full cars method right there. You've connecting with them, you're giving them some empathy, respect, you're giving them choices. You can stop yelling and stay or keep yelling and leave. It's Speaker 1 (32:28): Up to you. It's up to you. Speaker 2 (32:31): And respond to any misinformation and the limit and the consequence. I like choices of consequences like that because it gives people a chance to control themselves. And I think of a lot of different consequences, like in that situation, if you keep yelling this way, this is going to be the end of our visits for this month, but if you can leave now, calm down, then we can look forward to seeing you a couple weeks from now or whatever. Speaker 1 (33:05): And then maybe there's some level of tolerance that you gradually get them staged down. Maybe the next time they yell a little bit and you set a limit again. And over time they learn they can't get away with it. But you do need to impose the consequence that you've threatened, Speaker 2 (33:23): Got to be ready Speaker 1 (33:24): And not change your mind on it. Because a lot of people will try to find that loophole and squeeze through and give me a break. Look, I was just upset it. I couldn't control myself. Alright, well we can try it again next month. Thank you. But for today. Alright, well those are great questions. Thank you all for sending those in and we're grateful to all of you for listening. We'd love for you to hit that like button and leave us a review wherever you listen to this. Tell your friends about us and let's keep the information spreading across the world. Speaker 1 (34:13): If you're looking for training or consultation about a high conflict situation. If you need it in professional life or personal life, come see us. The links are in the show notes, and we want you to keep practicing and listening to the skills, learning the skills, and be kind to yourself and to others while we keep the conflict small and find the missing peace. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.