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What Makes Relationships Meaningful? · Life In Flow Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Life in Flow podcast.
• 0:03
  The three of us,
• 0:05
  Yulia,
• 0:05
  Polina,
• 0:06
  and Irina,
• 0:07
  are exploring what Life in Flow and Flow in Life is.
• 0:12
  Join us as we experiment,
• 0:15
  test our diverse hypotheses,
• 0:17
  and have fun in the process.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Will we find an answer?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't just an intellectual discussion.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're co-creating a shared field beyond words.
• 0:30
  We're attuning to what emerges moment by moment so that the
• 0:35
  conversation itself
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: becomes a group flow experience.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we invite you to become an active participant in this experiment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: There will be pauses and moments of silence.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: We leave them on purpose because this is where magic happens.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Go beyond the intellectual information.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Listen with your whole body.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: And notice how your somatic experience shifts in the process.
• 1:05
  Share with us what reveals itself in the space where mind,
• 1:11
  body,
• 1:12
  and energy flow together.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome everyone back to the Life & Flow podcast.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Polina, I'm leading us today.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm here with Yulia and Irina.
• 1:28
  And today we are exploring the question of what makes a
• 1:33
  relationship meaningful.
• 1:40
  As always,
• 1:41
  we're going to first start with a little word association game.
• 1:45
  I'm going to say a word and then we're going to go in a circle
• 1:53
  or,
• 1:54
  you know,
• 1:56
  however the energy is available,
• 1:58
  describing your sensory experience around that word.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no rules.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: It could be crazy.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: It could be wild.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: It could be whatever it is,
• 2:08
  just whatever that word presents in you and in the field in
• 2:13
  this moment in time.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the word is matter in terms of what matters, right?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: I feel weight,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: but in the sense,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: not in the sense of heaviness,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: but in the sense like of centering something that grounds you.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: And solid.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: I, my association was
• 3:00
  actually with food something that makes you I don't want to say
• 3:08
  full I guess not
• 3:10
  hungry or something that satisfies you into a calm I guess
• 3:20
  balanced and happy maybe
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: state content
• 3:32
  love it for me it evokes a sense of anchoring like it's kind of
• 3:38
  also there's a
• 3:39
  weight to it you know like you were describing but it's like an
• 3:44
  anchoring and yeah
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: that's mine right now let's go in another round i um
• 3:59
  Felt warmth and like the sense of incoming nurturing when Yula
• 4:08
  was talking about food.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it was like sustenance.
• 4:15
  I'm sorry I'm breaking our cycle,
• 4:16
  but sustenance that also came up just now.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like nourishment.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:34
  Maybe what somehow an image that I'm getting now is also this
• 4:44
  satisfaction that
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: comes from different sensory channels.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I'm seeing in front of me field of
• 4:57
  flowers maybe chamomile and i can it's very satisfying to the
• 5:06
  eyes to my nose to
• 5:10
  the touch um uh what else like to hearing probably as well in
• 5:17
  some sense and i have
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: no clue what it has to do with matter but somehow this is uh i got
• 5:36
  i had i have two rather opposite sensations so they might be
• 5:47
  felt to consider this opposite
• 5:51
  one is expansion with just like going beyond all our 53 senses
• 5:57
  or expanding them
• 5:58
  expanding our field of sensing everything and like centering at
• 6:09
  the same time it's
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: just like there is a line that goes through me
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's not necessarily about anchoring or grounding,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: but just like giving the access to all this expansion,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: the center.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, what comes up is it registers.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: It registers in me.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: It registers in the field.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so it matters.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: Irem, because you were, you mentioned, what is it, what did you call it?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: Axis?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: Axis.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: Thunder?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: but somehow for me,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: maybe because we talked about it before,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: somehow the emptiness came up,
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: and then in the middle of this emptiness,
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: on this axis,
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: there is something,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: there is matter,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: there is something that occupies this emptiness.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're going into the ethers now, it feels like.
• 7:30
  When Polina said what it registers,
• 7:33
  it registered with me because before I tried to
• 7:41
  We need to catch what would be the words to describe the
• 7:46
  sensation of inner knowing.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, when something matters, I know it in myself.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how to describe it senses-wise.
• 8:09
  it has something to do with calm and security and center but
• 8:24
  also like openness
• 8:27
  towards this information that registers for me what's coming
• 8:33
  through based on your
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: description you're taking me into
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: meaning actually,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: or,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: and also knowing like a knowing sensation,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: like knowing with your whole kind of system,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: not,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: not with your brain.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: And, um,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: Somehow I was thinking about sensing, knowing.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: The first thing that came to mind is warmth in the stomach.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Then my brain said, no, but you know primarily with your heart.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then...
• 9:30
  something after that when i dismissed both because i don't want
• 9:34
  to go into debate
• 9:35
  right now what came up is it's really cool to know with um
• 9:43
  goosebumps and rising
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: here yeah oh i just got a bunch of goosebumps
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: How do we describe being in senses?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Awareness is what's coming up for me.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's the awareness of the physical sensation, awareness of...
• 10:27
  whatever else is registering around this with whatever other
• 10:33
  parts acceptance comes
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: to me and it comes with this gesture
• 10:51
  it's actually like I need to raise my hand so you would see it
• 10:56
  but it's a little
• 10:57
  bit lower in my sensation of the body but yeah so like it's it
• 11:05
  comes not with the
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: word but with the gesture open arms to me that gesture was about
• 11:19
  an invitation also somehow maybe a little bit about surrender
• 11:25
  and now as it's yeah
• 11:28
  i'm not thinking about being anymore but just i guess playing
• 11:33
  with what you shared
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know love it let's uh hang on to
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: whatever the energy has been generated with this exercise,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: and shift gears into some questions that I prepared.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I myself have not answered these questions yet,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: so it will be real and in the moment as it emerges.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: But before I start with the questions, I wanted to ground us...
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: and what meaning, how it's defined in the larger world.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was curious because when I was sort of preparing for leading today,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't super preparing,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: but I actually had a moment.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, what is meaning?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: When you have to zero in on a word, then sometimes you actually lose
• 12:39
  the meaning of it it's it's a weird um a weird phenomenon that
• 12:44
  happens to me so i
• 12:46
  just looked it up just i'm bringing this in the space not
• 12:49
  because this is the
• 12:49
  definition we're going to be working in with but just so that
• 12:54
  it's also in the
• 12:55
  field in terms of i guess how humanity has defined it so far or
• 12:59
  at least in the
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: english language um okay so
• 13:04
  Merriam-Webster's definition is the thing one intends to
• 13:10
  convey,
• 13:11
  especially by language.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Purport.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Something meant or intended.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Aim.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: The logical connotation or significance of a word, symbol, or event.
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  The underlying significance or purpose,
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  especially of life,
• 13:33
  experience,
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  or relationships.
• 13:39
  The Oxford Dictionary defines it as what is meant by a word,
• 13:44
  text,
• 13:45
  concept,
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  or action.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: The thing or idea that a sign or symbol stands for.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: I had to engage with that one.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: A sense of purpose or value in life or relationships.
• 14:02
  So in both,
• 14:03
  meaning is tied to intention,
• 14:06
  significance of something,
• 14:09
  or purpose.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Which when I sat there and digested this a little bit,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was like,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: it's so open to interpretation.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like literally in the definition,
• 14:23
  I was engaging with the fact that this could be so different
• 14:30
  for so many different
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: people and different situations and even in context.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I just wanted to share that so that it's in the field.
• 14:40
  As I ask our first question,
• 14:43
  when you use the word meaningful in the context of a
• 14:48
  relationship,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean to you right now in this season of your life?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: I must confess.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like our flows.
• 15:18
  currents came together and clashed into each other i must
• 15:24
  confess that i did think
• 15:26
  about the question before our recording and what i realized
• 15:36
  that for me um i
• 15:47
  give to the relationship the value and the significance of
• 15:52
  meaningful playing with
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: your words when there is a certain resonance connection
• 16:12
  at any level the resonance and connection would be the same
• 16:17
  here between me and the
• 16:21
  other person and it may last just like several moments like in
• 16:30
  the moment it may
• 16:32
  present itself every time when there is a certain interaction
• 16:39
  with the person
• 16:43
  Or it may emerge at a certain moment in the relationship and
• 16:48
  then it may be gone.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: And this kind of resonance may be at the level,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: ah,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: we like the same things and we think the same force.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Or it may be really
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: at the level, you know, like the resonance of shared values.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like shared values and the shared worldviews.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: And now I'm thinking that...
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: Might not always be the case,
• 17:38
  but I will shut up for the moment because this is what I was
• 17:41
  thinking beforehand.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Now let's see how it will evolve.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: So can I just ask a clarifying question?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want to make sure I get it.
• 17:50
  So the way you define meaning in a relationship and the way you
• 17:56
  phrase that is that
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: I assign value or significance to a relationship,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Is when there is a certain resonance or connection
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it could be at different various levels.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the ways is resonance of values, so shared values.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Another way is resonance in terms of we're thinking similar things.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it kind of, I guess, resonates or lands between you and this person.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: That was sort of what I was picking up on.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: No, clarify.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, no, no.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you are phrasing it very correctly.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And also even worldview.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: So to me,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: that sounds like there's something that is shared,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: which creates a resonance between you and the other person.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it could be a variety of different things.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that also, I guess, generates sort of a connection.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: So if there's something shared...
• 19:03
  and a resonance,
• 19:05
  then that creates value and meaning in that relationship.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Am I getting that right?
• 19:15
  It's the question if it is enough to share anything to get to
• 19:22
  this resonance.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: I will need to sit with it for a while.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm thinking,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: just the banal situation,
• 19:36
  I can share a flat with someone and doesn't have any resonance
• 19:41
  with this person.
• 19:43
  And there won't be anything meaningful in our relationship
• 19:49
  besides the fact that
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: we're sharing some,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: material things.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess...
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: it should go beyond the matter in the,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: not in the sense what matters,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: but in the sense of the material things.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have something else you want to share?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, I want to listen to you.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:21
  So resonance is a super important concept,
• 20:26
  I think,
• 20:26
  when it comes to meaningful relationships.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, things that came up as we were playing were there.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: For example, it's occupying some place in my being.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: So a relationship that has this
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: place that has body.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess as far as exchange, that's definitely taking place.
• 21:05
  I see maybe like a diffusion when there is certain parts of me
• 21:17
  and parts of the other person
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: that have been exchanged.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: And at least for the time being of meaningfulness of this relationship,
• 21:29
  this exchange stays even if we are far away from each other and
• 21:36
  maybe we don't
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: maintain the connection anymore.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, lately I guess I've been, I don't know, like sensing
• 21:49
  meaningful relationships i mean i know meaningful relationships
• 21:53
  that are meaningful
• 21:54
  by all standards like like my kids and husband my family right
• 22:01
  like those people
• 22:02
  but sometimes you meet a person and you just sense that there
• 22:06
  is something
• 22:07
  meaningful and maybe it's because of that non-verbal exchange
• 22:12
  and diffusion that
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: takes place that already you kind of
• 22:19
  give up a little bit of yourself and you accept a little bit of
• 22:23
  the other person.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask you some questions?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 22:33
  When you say diffusion,
• 22:35
  can you give me a little bit more context for what that means
• 22:39
  exactly?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't even
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: give it a lot of thought what it means.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: I guess diffusion is when one thing is no longer one thing,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: but it's kind of like the porous entities that we are,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: we allow for some penetration,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: consciously,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: hopefully,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, exchange.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, cool.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like for you, meaning is derived.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to clarify.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Derived when something has...
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: It almost sounds to me like enough of density that it creates.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: You said like it has a place in my body, but it also has a body.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is that how you described it?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like there's a density to it, to that exchange.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: And also there's a place that it resides in your field in some way.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Did I get that right?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I said.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: I was just saying what was coming up.
• 24:03
  I can now confirm and visualize everything and explain how it
• 24:12
  all plays out and
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: where it's placed.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: But that was, yeah.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: May I clarify about exchange?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Does this exchange necessarily entail some real-world interaction?
• 24:35
  Or it can be more like just the energy exchange at the more
• 24:41
  subtle level and we
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: even didn't speak and we don't know each other?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 24:49
  I don't know about not knowing each other because I would
• 24:53
  probably have a hard time
• 24:56
  placing the origins or tracing the origins of the heaviness and
• 25:04
  the occupation of
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: my being.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Heaviness and occupation.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: That just took me to a whole other context.
• 25:13
  Yeah.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: But it can be totally non-verbal, that part.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: So we don't have to touch each other.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes you just meet someone,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: you exchange a little bit of presence still,
• 25:34
  and then you are left with this sensation that this person is
• 25:39
  somehow meaningful to
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: you,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: I loved really this,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: how you phrase it,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: not just the idea,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: but how you phrase it,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: I could find some place in my being.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: And what it made me think of,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: the inspiration I sometimes get from some people,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: not necessarily,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not speaking necessarily of particular persons,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: but I may get inspired by you two one day,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: and the other day I may get inspired by someone else.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: But it is through that...
• 26:31
  It is like the imprint that this person leaves in me and it
• 26:43
  certainly occupies some
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: space in my being.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really a very beautiful concept and the way how you phrased it.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: And the idea of exchange
• 27:05
  Because what came to my mind is it often happens to me with men
• 27:17
  and my relationship.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: In the area of love relationships, it's a complex matter.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: So very often in my experience, what happens to me is that
• 27:33
  there may be no any significant exchange or sharing at the
• 27:44
  level of ideas or
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: sharing values or even any significant interaction with the person.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: But I still feel this exchange of energy
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: And of course,
• 28:03
  this exchange of energy is coming from this also energetic
• 28:08
  resonance that is
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: emerging between our bodies and also our energetic beings.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it is true that this exchange makes my...
• 28:29
  attachment to this person even like when from the point of view
• 28:35
  of the conventional
• 28:38
  world it would be totally imaginary but to me it makes it
• 28:43
  meaningful because i
• 28:44
  really felt this exchange and like this interconnection of the
• 28:54
  energies between our
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: beings
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: Interplay.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: Interplay.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: What about you?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for asking.
• 29:16
  It's so funny because whenever I really tune into what both of
• 29:20
  you are saying,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: it literally in the moment shifts whatever I might have said in the past,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: because it's like it's really.
• 29:32
  like resonating with what you're describing and i'm feeling it
• 29:36
  and it's like you
• 29:37
  know what i end up i end up in totally different place than i
• 29:41
  might have uh
• 29:42
  beforehand so it's it's it's really curious to me always it's
• 29:45
  like a constant
• 29:47
  co-creation of whatever is here at the moment even even in like
• 29:51
  things like meaning
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: right um
• 29:55
  I think for me,
• 29:56
  what resonates the most about what makes something meaningful
• 30:01
  is significance.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like a relationship, not just something, a relationship meaningful.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: In this specific season of my life, which is very specific,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's the ability to be real with the person.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's the safety that I feel to address things as they come up,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: not just share positives,
• 30:36
  but also share potential triggers or things that need to be
• 30:40
  clarified and verified
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: and maybe need to be worked through.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: That willingness and openness of someone
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: to engage not just in what's easy and simple,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: but also in what makes us human all around,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: All of the sides of it.
• 31:02
  Someone that's willing to take the time and the energy that is
• 31:08
  required and the
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: effort to engage in that way for the purpose of
• 31:15
  clarity and the ability to move forward and understand one
• 31:21
  another and learn one
• 31:22
  another so it's really there's a depth to the types of
• 31:29
  relationships that I feel
• 31:31
  are meaningful for me so they definitely go beyond surface and
• 31:38
  it's not necessarily
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: about fun it's also about shared interests of course and values and
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: But not in the way that I would have defined it in the past,
• 31:50
  because I could still derive a lot of meaning in a significant
• 31:55
  connection with
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: someone,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: even if they're very different from me,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: because of how they're willing to engage.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is there a lot of curiosity in the exchange?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is there openness, right?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is there like a willingness to learn about one another?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is there...
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a welcoming?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: in IFS,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: we welcome all the parts,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: and that's part of the process in internal family systems,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 32:20
  But I think this welcoming piece really is something that I'm
• 32:27
  starting to see in
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: all kinds of different modalities in terms of,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: what we do,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: as coaches,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: as whatever it is that we do,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: but also in just regular life interactions.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a welcoming of...
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Someone that's angry, right?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a welcoming of someone that's upset?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are we willing to hold space for one another?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Are we willing to ask, what do you need?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Another human, like, what do you need in this moment?
• 32:59
  Those are the types of things that really create meaning for me
• 33:02
  because they feel
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: welcoming and generative and real.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think not having to pretend is a very important check mark for me.
• 33:24
  And again,
• 33:25
  at this very specific season of my life,
• 33:31
  and I found myself lately to be so sensitive
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: to people pretending,
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: also people pretending that I've known for a long,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: long time,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: for many years.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: And then somehow it wasn't that triggering to me.
• 33:53
  And all of a sudden now I'm finding myself literally exploding
• 34:00
  and very aware
• 34:08
  of this wall between us um and actually it's one of i think one
• 34:18
  of the reasons that
• 34:19
  i'm and it's come to my awareness so strongly it's actually
• 34:25
  because of improv
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: because one of the things that improv teaches is
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: You have to act on top of your intelligence.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: You have to follow your curiosity always.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: And meaning on top of your intelligence,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: all those questions that people ask when they look at you,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: at this stage,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: this is improv stage,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: this is what you have to do to address those questions.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, you know, when I'm saying, oh, wait, I just came from...
• 35:00
  like whatever like a um a big party and here is your soup you
• 35:05
  want to ask about the
• 35:07
  party right so okay what is what is the party or um but it's
• 35:11
  like no no no let's
• 35:12
  let us focus uh on the soup and this is i think it's somehow so
• 35:19
  pervasive that it's
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: also really sad because we're missing so many um
• 35:30
  cool topics for conversations where we could just be honest
• 35:37
  with each other.
• 35:40
  I really felt that sadness energy come through at some point
• 35:45
  when you were
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: describing what you were describing.
• 35:48
  And I also connect to the sadness of not having the type of
• 35:52
  meaning that I would
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: like to have in relationships.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's really sad.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: And there is that wall that you're describing.
• 35:59
  That's something I also am so much more aware than I think
• 36:03
  maybe ever before this wall was.
• 36:07
  that I just don't want to engage with and I don't want to be
• 36:11
  looking through or
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: over a wall at this person and have no access to them.
• 36:16
  But also I wanted to ask you,
• 36:18
  I kind of got lost with your soup and party analogy.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Can you explain that a little bit more?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: The soup and party wasn't very clear, I realized.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's like, oh, I just killed someone and here I made you some soup.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, the redirect from what we are trained to do.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: Completely disregard because, oh, you just killed someone.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my God.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: And the discomfort of even asking that question.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: And what would the other person answer?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: And how would they react to this?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: And is it even appropriate?
• 36:55
  And blah,
• 36:55
  blah,
• 36:55
  blah,
• 36:56
  blah,
• 36:56
  blah,
• 36:56
  blah,
• 36:56
  blah,
• 36:56
  blah,
• 36:57
  blah,
• 36:57
  blah,
• 36:57
  blah,
• 36:57
  blah.
• 36:58
  And then all we talk about is the soup when something so
• 37:03
  dramatic took place.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: I find it's like everywhere.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, thank you for clarifying that.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's so true.
• 37:10
  It's funny how sometimes the meaning of things arise when we
• 37:17
  describe the lack of
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: the thing that we want to experience,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: like the opposite,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: It clarifies things even more, which makes sense.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: What were you going to say, Ir?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what I was going to say.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I thought you were going to say something.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 37:38
  the things that were coming to me while I was listening to you
• 37:42
  both is that this
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: ability to be real...
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: with another person.
• 38:02
  I heard it many times how people value the possibility to be
• 38:12
  oneself with someone.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's because we don't know
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: and of course I'm generalizing right now,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: but we are talking about the general pervasive issue,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm just giving my take on it.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I think we,
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: let's put it this way,
• 38:40
  many people in the majority of situations have a big problem
• 38:47
  with being real with
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: themselves,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: first of all.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: And that's
• 38:55
  doesn't let people to listen to this resonance that may occur
• 39:05
  in the interaction or
• 39:07
  in the being in the sharing the same space with another person
• 39:12
  and hence any
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: exchange of this like
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: co-penetration,
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: the interplay that could have happened,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: it doesn't happen just because we don't know how to engage with it.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know how to pay attention or how to notice it.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: So we can't let the other person
• 39:46
  to occupy some space in our being because we don't know how to
• 39:51
  occupy our being,
• 39:52
  first of all.
• 40:02
  And I think I liked,
• 40:04
  Paulina,
• 40:05
  how you described all the things that the factors you identify
• 40:11
  as
• 40:13
  significant for you and what I was thinking while I was
• 40:18
  listening to you because
• 40:19
  you were describing all the different things that allow for
• 40:28
  this exchange between
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: the two or more people.
• 40:35
  So this openness and curiosity and welcoming and no judging is
• 40:45
  what allows us to
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: get into our being,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: to connect to this resonance,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: to open up the channels,
• 41:00
  for the interaction and by interaction I mean this exchange and
• 41:05
  all the different
• 41:05
  levels and obviously the safer and the more the more real we
• 41:17
  can be in this
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: exchange the more open we can make these channels and then the more depth
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: we can go in this exchange.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Can I add something?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry, go ahead.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: No, as I was listening, I was actually thinking,
• 41:44
  wow,
• 41:45
  so many things,
• 41:47
  you know,
• 41:47
  you need to be open,
• 41:49
  real,
• 41:50
  good place,
• 41:51
  aware.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: Also what was coming up in me was,
• 42:01
  but you cannot always do that because we humans cannot be all
• 42:06
  those things in all
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: moments.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 42:10
  sometimes we're none of those things and i'm speaking for
• 42:13
  myself here from my own
• 42:15
  experience and even if i with my brain understand that wow this
• 42:20
  is such a good um
• 42:21
  time now to be open and non-judgmental and real and receive
• 42:28
  shit but that is
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: impossible for me at the moment so i just wanted to put it in there that
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: imperfection and
• 42:40
  like messing things up to me is um also part of um meaningful
• 42:48
  relationship that
• 42:51
  thing later gets some energy and attention and gets somehow
• 42:59
  processed between the
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: two people or maybe i don't know i'm not sure if it can be done just uh
• 43:08
  single-handedly i think it's you know it's relation right
• 43:12
  relationships are relational so yeah
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 43:17
  Thanks for bringing the focus on this aspect,
• 43:20
  which I think Ida was doing as well.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so was I in my description.
• 43:25
  It's absolutely not something that could be done all the time
• 43:28
  in all the ways that
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: we are describing.
• 43:31
  But the the moments when that is not possible,
• 43:36
  if if there is space and ability
• 43:40
  to engage and post-process,
• 43:43
  right,
• 43:43
  and clean things up,
• 43:44
  clarify,
• 43:44
  verify,
• 43:45
  get somewhere else.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: And there's the realness about the fact that right now I'm not able to.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just really pissed off.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to say, you know, screw it to all of it.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: so just to be real with yourself,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: which is what Iter was pointing to,
• 44:07
  like the ability to to have the internal space in yourself or
• 44:12
  the internal
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: awareness is not necessarily available at all times.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: But if there is a willingness and an openness,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: to clear things up and clean things up,
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: and find your way through the darkness with the other person,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: then I think that's what's really,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: truly meaningful for me.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: And in the interconnectedness of it all, the relationships also help
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: me,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: to be able to engage with parts of me that I cannot engage with on my own
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: necessarily,
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: Just like what you were pointing to, Yul.
• 44:53
  Which helps me to understand how I render when it comes to
• 45:00
  other people,
• 45:01
  sort of.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Not just render physically, but also render energetically, emotionally.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: If there weren't other people...
• 45:11
  what chance would there be for like a full aspect of
• 45:17
  understanding yourself?
• 45:19
  There would still be an aspect of understanding yourself and
• 45:22
  deriving meaning from
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: like the physical reality,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Which you're always talking about and it's true.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: But this thing between humans,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: which is messy and difficult and sometimes fun and sometimes good,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: but like this whole spectrum of things
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: becomes more accessible when we are allowed to fuck up,
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: but also allowed to clean it up afterwards and learn and grow from it,
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 45:49
  So the welcoming of all of it,
• 45:50
  basically,
• 45:52
  is what's coming to mind for me.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:55
  Well,
• 45:56
  something that I heard some time ago on a podcast about
• 46:05
  shamanism,
• 46:06
  and it was about
• 46:08
  humans and humans being who they are and interacting the way
• 46:14
  they are solely
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: because they have created this society,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: culture and things like that.
• 46:25
  So they were saying that all the attributes of us as humans
• 46:31
  that we often attribute
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: to ourselves personally,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: They're also meaningful,
• 46:38
  only meaningful in far as it helps us navigate this human
• 46:43
  relationships in the
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: context of culture and,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: social structures and things like that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that is just to say that
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: exactly how would we know ourselves if there wasn't anyone else?
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: Where would we be reflected?
• 47:11
  So what came to my mind,
• 47:24
  and actually I think it hasn't come up before in our
• 47:31
  conversation,
• 47:34
  But sometimes what may make the relationship meaningful is
• 47:42
  exactly these things
• 47:46
  that the other person reflect to me about myself that I haven't
• 47:54
  been able to see in
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: myself anymore.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: without this reflection.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: And this may be very painful.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: It might be the relationship that doesn't have the welcoming,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: the curiosity,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: or at least it may be not mutual and the ability to be real.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: But this conflict, as we would call it,
• 48:29
  my the real to myself some things about me that would make the
• 48:40
  relationship
• 48:41
  valuable even if it's painful and difficult conflict i think is
• 48:55
  so super important
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like there is so much energy in conflict.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: There is so much tension.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: this is also,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_03: I would say,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: meaning,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: being meaningful is about some energy,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: some level of tension,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: something you can feel.
• 49:15
  And this is where I try to have a meaningful relationship with
• 49:20
  someone who always says,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, yes.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, what?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we'll need to cut this out.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: So yes to conflict in meaningful relationship.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, what came to my mind is a relationship.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very meaningful relationship in my life with my best friend.
• 49:52
  and we have been friends since we were three years old we have
• 50:01
  like the same age
• 50:02
  like we have the three days of difference in in our birthdays
• 50:07
  and this is the
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: person with whom i have uh had the most like
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: co-penetrate of resonance in my life.
• 50:22
  There was time then I was saying that if she was a man,
• 50:26
  I would have married her.
• 50:29
  But then also there was a moment when I realized that we are so
• 50:37
  much alike,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: so similar to each other that very rarely
• 50:47
  there is any conflict and sometimes it may be really boring
• 50:53
  because in the end you
• 50:55
  know like when you're like what's the point of discussing
• 51:01
  anything when you know
• 51:02
  what the other person will say because she will say the same
• 51:05
  thing that I think oh
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: man I love that
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny because, yeah, go ahead.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead, Yul.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_03: Coming up for you, Pauline, I was going to say.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 51:26
  I was just thinking like a meaningful relationship without
• 51:33
  conflict could not
• 51:35
  possibly be meaningful because I am not someone at my like real
• 51:40
  spectrum of things
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: in myself without conflict.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: what would I be like if there wasn't ever even internal conflict?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: So a relationship that never has conflict is almost like,
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even understand what that would,
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: what is that?
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, wait, but isn't it what we are aiming for?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 52:06
  like to transcend all our inner conflicts and to come into
• 52:12
  peace and full harmony
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: between all our inner parts.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that that's a great goal to have.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure that that is attainable in this lifetime.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 52:23
  just like from the perspective of all the different parts we
• 52:26
  have and like the
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: judgment and actually how our brain is even wired.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like in our nervous system.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: It is wired to make assessments and make judgments in order to survive.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: So how would we transcend that wiring even?
• 52:43
  Forget about the fact that there's always a difference of
• 52:46
  opinion internally
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: because it's not even just about opinion.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's about a feeling,
• 52:52
  a sensation in that moment in time with all these things that
• 52:55
  come together in the
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: field and internally and the
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's weird.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what would that even be like?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: You have left this world as a body and then another world.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_03: And this is how, you know, conflict.
• 53:13
  Well,
• 53:13
  because conflict is also crucial to survival,
• 53:15
  also physical survival.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, Yer.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, go ahead, Yer.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: No,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was saying like all this,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: you're like looking for the positive function,
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: you're like positive intention of each part.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the point of how we overcome,
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_03: this is what we're working on,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: like to overcome the inner judgment and you're like giving,
• 53:42
  recognizing the voice of the inner critic and recognizing its
• 53:45
  positive intention.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it can transcend this,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: survival function of assessing feeling,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: giving it the value of,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: I assess it,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: but not from the judging position.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: We're still like, this is what we're looking for.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: So from this perspective,
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: at least from the intention of our work with the inner conflicts,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think we,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: there is some,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: at least subconscious position,
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: assumption that the real us,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: the ideal version of us,
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: is the version without inner conflict.
• 54:32
  Maybe,
• 54:32
  maybe it is true that when we get to that point,
• 54:35
  then we will just not be here anymore.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: I actually, I'm not sure I agree with you, Ir.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: I would love for that to be the case.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: Literally would love it.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: But...
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think for me that is the goal.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: Actually,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 54:51
  the goal is to be more aware of all the aspects of me and make
• 54:58
  space for all of it.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, help myself to regulate to a place where
• 55:06
  It's not as big of a trigger or big of a reaction or as long of
• 55:12
  a recovery as like
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: it has been in the past.
• 55:16
  But I don't know that I would like try to get rid of parts or
• 55:24
  not make room for
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: different parts that may have different qualities.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even know.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: if that is what humanity is with a body or without a body.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: But that's like a whole other conversation.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: but I'm not talking about the getting rid of...
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: If we're getting rid of the other part of the relationship,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: there is no relationship.
• 55:50
  But when we are in the conflict,
• 55:56
  let's be honest,
• 55:57
  we all want this conflict to be over.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: but when the conflict is over,
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: then if another conflict doesn't come soon,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_03: then really like that energy that holds relationships together,
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think it just dissipates.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's like every life,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: it's about pulsation and every breath,
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: it's you inhale,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_03: you exhale.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: So being in a state of
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: harmony or non-conflict all the time,
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: then how do we even get to a definition of harmony or,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: being united because there is no conflict?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: I would not want for myself to have no conflict,
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: also included in an internal conflict.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, not maybe so much as
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: is usual for me, but some conflict, I think it's a sign that I'm alive.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I'm also with Yula on this one for now.
• 57:16
  In this specific conversation we're having in this season of my
• 57:20
  life and also in
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: this place where I am on my own journey,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure the goal is to never have conflict
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe I don't like that word very much, as usual.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: But...
• 57:36
  um i mean the absence of something does often magnify the the
• 57:44
  its opposites i don't
• 57:45
  know how could there be like a balance if there is no opposite
• 57:51
  um what would that
• 57:52
  even look like i mean maybe it would be really cool and great
• 57:55
  i'm not sure that
• 57:56
  we're at a place where that's really possible in terms of where
• 58:00
  we are as humans
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: right now um
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: But also, I don't even understand what that would look like.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not sure.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: What were you going to say, Yur?
• 58:11
  I'm just thinking,
• 58:12
  and I'm just,
• 58:12
  you know,
• 58:13
  like,
• 58:15
  voicing out the ideas as they come.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: But there is this...
• 58:28
  idea in the science of psychology or I think that we tend to
• 58:37
  give more value to the
• 58:43
  relationship with the person the more we invested in this
• 58:47
  relationship or in this
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: person so in this case you know like
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: having gone through,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: many conflicts together somehow,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: creates this,
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: increases this value.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: You're like,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: we have gone through so much,
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: but at the same time,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: doesn't it create sort of,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_03: like toxic,
• 59:23
  codependency between each other and the relationship with
• 59:29
  conflict itself.
• 59:30
  So it's like,
• 59:32
  let's have conflicts because the reconciliation afterwards is
• 59:35
  so nice.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not that's not what I was talking about,
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: for sure,
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: that what you're describing definitely sounds toxic and not very juicy.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think that and I don't know,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yula,
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: maybe you could also weigh in on what you meant by it,
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: but what I mean by conflict and conflict.
• 59:58
  that being welcome in the field is so that when there are
• 1:00:06
  differences or there are
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: misunderstandings,
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: which are bound to happen in the way things are set up,
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: there is the opportunity to get to a better clarity,
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: to clean things up,
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: and to...
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's a trajectory of growth and evolution in that relationship.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: Things...
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: are more clear.
• 1:00:28
  They are less triggering because there is an understanding and
• 1:00:32
  things have been cleaned up.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: So even if there is continuous conflict and not that we're,
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not aiming for continuous conflict,
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: but in moments of conflict,
• 1:00:42
  it's not the same type of conflict and it's not the same type
• 1:00:44
  of triggers,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because we have cleaned up.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: We have really understood each other.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: We've really met.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're constantly meeting one another, um,
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: at a place where more is possible.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's how I'm seeing it.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it's a forward moving trajectory.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: What were you going to say?
• 1:01:05
  This brings me to something that Dan Siegel was talking about
• 1:01:13
  in relationships and
• 1:01:14
  how he differentiates between linking and completely merging
• 1:01:24
  into each other.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when we're using conflict,
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: let's say in an unhealthy way that leads to toxic dependence,
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: interdependence,
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_03: it's like we're constantly penetrating each other,
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: maybe violating each other.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: And there is like this ball that is created that is hard to take apart.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: And this is just a metaphor that comes for me.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know, when conflict is used to maintain this linking, right?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're together, but this is me, and this is you, and right now I want
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, like a coffee and you want a tea.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a very subtle conflict, but still it is, right?
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: Because maybe the other person,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_03: because there's like,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_03: in the mornings,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: what else would you have but coffee?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, sorry, but no, tea please for me.
• 1:02:33
  And this is the type of conflict that I think it's super
• 1:02:37
  important for maintaining
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: linking with each other.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: I like that you took it to such a simple example, and it's totally true.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're going to have different preferences.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's where the conflict really arises.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: People have different preferences.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we deal with those preferences?
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: How do we compromise?
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_02: But a compromise that's a win-win for both people,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: which requires real understanding and openness and acceptance.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_02: This is a quite complicated topic.
• 1:03:04
  By the way,
• 1:03:05
  I want to say that both of you have used the word penetration.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: When it comes to this topic,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: not in this episode,
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: but maybe in future episode,
• 1:03:17
  I would like to put some attention on this because I wonder
• 1:03:21
  where this concept of
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_02: penetration,
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: when it comes to meaning,
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_02: comes from.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is it because women associate so much meaning with sex,
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: which includes penetration,
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: or is it something else?
• 1:03:36
  No.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: Does the word penetration always have to have a sexual meaning?
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, but it's quite often associated in that way.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: But this is not what I meant.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't think about sex at all.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, but also penetration is quite aggressive in a way, almost.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: More you can say you're...
• 1:04:08
  penetration but you know it's like sex or is is a relationship
• 1:04:15
  right just to type
• 1:04:16
  and because we're talking about relationships i think things
• 1:04:20
  are going to cross
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_03: over so because some concepts they're just better suited for explaining
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_03: neighboring concepts.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: but like crossover versus penetration,
• 1:04:36
  there's a difference in the felt sense of those two different
• 1:04:40
  descriptions.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_03: but you know,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_03: like as a porous being,
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: when something comes through your membrane and gets inside of you,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_03: the things penetrate you.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's true.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: I guess you can even say water penetrates cells, right?
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_02: When an
• 1:05:00
  enters and leaves the cell yeah okay um this is a good segue i
• 1:05:05
  feel like you
• 1:05:06
  already took us into a segue um to my next question which was
• 1:05:10
  when you drop into a
• 1:05:11
  relationship that feels deeply meaningful to you what is the
• 1:05:17
  actual quad quality or
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: the texture of that meaningness meaningfulness um what does it
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_02: actually feel like in your body when you're with this person?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like it could be someone,
• 1:05:33
  you could maybe think about someone specific that you really
• 1:05:36
  have a lot of meaning
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: with.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: What does it feel like in your body, this meaningfulness?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it feels like I've been penetrated.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: Because this person occupies space in my being, of course.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_03: How would you answer, Kualien?
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure there's a penetration,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: but there is a,
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_02: a sensation of witnessing,
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_02: a sensation of maybe being held or I'm holding.
• 1:06:29
  energetically with my attention there's a sensation of approval
• 1:06:36
  which to me
• 1:06:36
  actually approval does have an energetic quality to it feeling
• 1:06:43
  welcomed also has an
• 1:06:45
  energetic quality it feels like a warmth it feels like an
• 1:06:54
  allowing like there's an
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: allowing in the field
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in my body,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: also,
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: I always notice there's a relaxation that happens inside of me when I'm,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:08
  in a relationship that's meaningful and safe and welcoming and
• 1:07:16
  it relaxes my whole
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_02: system.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_03: Two things came to me while I was thinking about it.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_03: One, I think, these are like two different scenarios.
• 1:07:44
  I think the one that comes to me is one in the,
• 1:07:49
  there is this realization of the resonance.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_03: and of some kind of the depth of this exchange,
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_03: a different level,
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_03: which might not be,
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_03: as I mentioned in the beginning,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_03: to me,
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_03: might happen just once,
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_03: once in direction,
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_03: and then I never see this person in my life.
• 1:08:11
  But at this moment,
• 1:08:12
  something happened that leave me in the sense of,
• 1:08:16
  oh...
• 1:08:18
  and excitement like wow how is it possible this this kind of
• 1:08:24
  connection this kind
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_03: of exchange and it's it feels like expansion like wow
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_03: But then another scenario,
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_03: which we mentioned before,
• 1:08:44
  is when the difficult relationships that reflect something
• 1:08:49
  important to me about
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_03: me.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:52
  So all the sensations that the relationship might produce might
• 1:09:01
  be rather heavy and unpleasant.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're difficult relationships.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_03: But when I realize this reflection,
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_03: what it actually means,
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_03: the meaning of this relationship,
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_03: what usually comes is gratitude.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think...
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_03: If we're talking about sensations in the body,
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_03: it's also somehow associated with expansion for me.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_03: So basically, I come to expansion.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: So flow, it feels like, and it's also the marker for Yulia, right?
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: The gratitude, right?
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's your marker for flow.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yul, I think in one of the previous episodes.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, yeah, it's true.
• 1:10:00
  The moments of the realization of this connection,
• 1:10:05
  of the meaning of the interaction.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_03: It does have to do with what we discussed as life and flow.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because it gives me this realization that all of this had its meaning.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_03: It somehow has its place in my life.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_03: It all connects.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_03: You're like...
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's a puzzle that finds its place in the whole picture.
• 1:10:47
  Now I'm thinking about really specific interactions when I find
• 1:10:54
  myself in spaces
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_03: with people that I don't know.
• 1:11:00
  and i guess meaningfulness of a relationship or a specific
• 1:11:06
  person to me somehow
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_03: this resonance is really flowy nature of this interaction including the
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_03: conversation um and it's somehow it's just easy to talk and um
• 1:11:31
  yeah uh i'm i'm having a hard time remembering an experience
• 1:11:37
  where um if that
• 1:11:40
  you're referring to where something really heavy was um
• 1:11:44
  reflected to me with a
• 1:11:46
  meaningful relationship but i'm sure it's yeah i've had
• 1:11:51
  something like this yeah
• 1:11:54
  I I really resonate with that with that description that you
• 1:11:59
  had that difficult
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_02: relationships can reflect something really important to me,
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: about me,
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_02: about this relationship,
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_02: like that aspect of it,
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: that reflective
• 1:12:12
  point that is what a lot of times can create meaning if we're
• 1:12:16
  willing to be open to
• 1:12:18
  seeing it placing it figuring out how that puzzle fits right as
• 1:12:22
  you described that
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_02: really um that makes sense um
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And also,
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_02: based on what you were describing,
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: that's a question that's been in the back of my head a little bit.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is meaning always dependent on a shared meaning?
• 1:12:46
  I feel like a lot of interactions could be meaningful,
• 1:12:50
  but not necessarily...
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_02: like a two way meaning.
• 1:12:55
  It could just be meaningful to me because I am resonating or
• 1:12:59
  I'm receiving or I'm
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: reflecting or something.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_02: Something is taking shape or, you know,
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_02: being born out of this experience.
• 1:13:11
  And I may be very grateful for the person that's helping to
• 1:13:15
  co-create that,
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_02: whatever is needed for me to derive that meaning.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_02: But not necessarily, it doesn't necessarily have to do with them per se.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_02: So there's gratitude still,
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_02: but it's actually still a very non-relation,
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_02: it's more about the relationship that I have with me,
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_02: which is where the meaning lies.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:13:38
  now it makes me think of a recent interaction that I had with
• 1:13:45
  someone with whom I
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_03: was in the forest for four days as part of training.
• 1:13:51
  And the amount of...
• 1:13:58
  It's like,
• 1:14:03
  oh my god,
• 1:14:04
  I just...
• 1:14:05
  He annoys me so much.
• 1:14:08
  how I am disliking him was so intense and now as you're talking
• 1:14:17
  I'm thinking okay
• 1:14:18
  what well usually when we are triggered by someone that's a
• 1:14:21
  sign that's something
• 1:14:22
  there right that we know about us and maybe don't want to
• 1:14:25
  acknowledge needs to be
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_03: acknowledged so now I was like
• 1:14:30
  Okay,
• 1:14:31
  well,
• 1:14:32
  does this mean we just,
• 1:14:34
  I just had a meaningful relationship with him?
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Liz,
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: in this aspect,
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_03: you've got that part that occupies the space in your being,
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_03: of this person that reflects something to you.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Occupy.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_03: There was an exchange.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was an important exchange.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_03: Occupy is very appropriate.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_02: I actually,
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: so going back to that,
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_02: this occupation,
• 1:15:09
  it also goes back to what you also said earlier about like the
• 1:15:19
  fact that there are
• 1:15:20
  some meaningful relationships in the way that like society
• 1:15:22
  defines meaning,
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_02: So family members, parents, children, we almost don't,
• 1:15:31
  maybe consciously really consider what is the meaning of this
• 1:15:35
  relationship outside
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_02: of the established meaning because they are,
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_02: my parent or my kid or whatever.
• 1:15:44
  But there is an occupation of that piece that happens in the
• 1:15:48
  system that's like
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_02: literally residing there all the time.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Whether or not those relationships in the way,
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: in this season of my life,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_02: I really truly define meaning,
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_02: those relationships don't necessarily fit the bill.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And yet they're still meaningful and they still occupy my space.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a...
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's just another marker for how complicated this human experience is.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore,
• 1:16:18
  I'm not sure I would ever really be chasing this version of the
• 1:16:23
  experience where
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: there's no conflict whatsoever and I have evolved past.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_02: all the different flavors,
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to have a better relationship with all the different flavors,
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_02: like a better time with them for them to taste better.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Even if they are like, right, something sour, it can still taste so good.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just wanted to add that that was coming up coming up for me.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a very, very good point.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, occupation just
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_03: because of the structure of life at different level,
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_03: cultural,
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_03: social,
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_03: but maybe also,
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_03: other level,
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_03: because this is you're talking about ancestors and things like that.
• 1:17:19
  what came to me just now it was I have been thinking about it
• 1:17:24
  during several
• 1:17:25
  moments in our conversation when we were talking about the
• 1:17:30
  conflict thing and just
• 1:17:33
  lately you were discussing it also Paulina that it's actually
• 1:17:40
  in the end what it
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: gives me how I can grow
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_03: in the relationship.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I was thinking that very often people say that we value someone,
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_03: the relationship with someone for what we feel,
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_03: like how we feel ourselves when we are with this person.
• 1:18:17
  but um coming back to the question of group flow and basically
• 1:18:26
  what we are uh
• 1:18:30
  you're like when we're describing all this you like openness
• 1:18:34
  and the exchange and
• 1:18:36
  the curiosity so it's basically we're describing basically like
• 1:18:41
  we want to have
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_03: group flow with another person or with
• 1:18:47
  several group of people so it's it's also about this you're
• 1:18:56
  like being able to
• 1:18:59
  transcend oneself to feel oneself as a part of something bigger
• 1:19:08
  be it a couple or
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_03: A meaningful group of friends or colleagues, not necessarily friends.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_03: Meaningful relationship can be a working relationship.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_03: When we are working, co-creating in a project, it may be very meaningful.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_03: And of course,
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_03: it is about what happens with each of us,
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_03: but it's also about this sensation that I'm a part of something bigger.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_03: I belong to something that is bigger than me.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you brought that in.
• 1:19:56
  Because you're right,
• 1:19:57
  there's like a zooming out process when it comes to group flow,
• 1:20:03
  right?
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_02: in order to maintain that group flow.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not like you're doing it on purpose.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like there's a zooming out.
• 1:20:10
  So that may actually take you a little bit further away from
• 1:20:14
  whatever parts
• 1:20:15
  personally might have a different voice in certain instances or
• 1:20:19
  situations,
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_02: but because you're like expanded into the group field,
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Those voices are not as present maybe.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you're able to kind of jive and flow more.
• 1:20:31
  with what is here now and maybe have potentially even less
• 1:20:36
  conflict in those situations.
• 1:20:38
  I wonder if it's maybe group flow gets interrupted when our
• 1:20:43
  individual personal
• 1:20:44
  things get a little bit louder and take us out of that
• 1:20:52
  co-creative flow in the
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_02: moment.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_03: as they say,
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_03: for the group creativity to be successful,
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_03: you need to leave your ego at the door.
• 1:21:07
  I guess it's a balance between difference of opinion and
• 1:21:13
  allowing everyone to be heard.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's the same for improv.
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_03: But also, yes, the main goal is...
• 1:21:22
  what are you doing it for are you doing it to kind of like uh
• 1:21:27
  show yourself up or
• 1:21:28
  you you're doing it to support the common process that is at
• 1:21:33
  least an improv is the
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_03: difference that you when you perform on a team
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_02: OK, I have another follow up question.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_02: We've already touched on this,
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_02: but I just want to make it a little bit more concrete,
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_02: if you don't mind.
• 1:21:51
  What kinds of relationships or moments challenge your sense of
• 1:21:57
  meaning the most?
• 1:21:59
  Do you have like a concrete sense of what kinds of
• 1:22:04
  relationships or moments really
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_02: tend to challenge your sense of meaning the most?
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you tend to meet that challenge inside yourself?
• 1:22:16
  I'd say I'm thinking still about the example that I just shared
• 1:22:19
  with you about this
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_03: four days in the forest.
• 1:22:22
  And that was when I was extremely challenged with being annoyed
• 1:22:29
  and I guess,
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_03: I did have it on the back of my mind to sort things out and to
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_03: realize what kind of meaning I'm supposed to make out of it.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess extending that,
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_03: for me,
• 1:22:52
  it's those relationships that highlight some things I would not
• 1:23:01
  rather see or look
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_03: at,
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_03: and then accepting the meaningfulness exactly for that.
• 1:23:14
  I love that you're always bringing in like the physicality of
• 1:23:17
  the challenges in all
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_02: kinds of frames and perspectives.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_02: I always forget about the physical aspect of it because to me,
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_02: like challenge right away means something more internal,
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_02: more emotional,
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_02: more,
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_02: like on that level.
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you're always reminding me, well, actually, there's the physical.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_02: She is surviving in the forest.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I know.
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_03: Ira, how about you?
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking about conflicts,
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_03: but apart from this aspect like what Yuda mentioned,
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_03: what came to me is the inner conflict.
• 1:24:01
  And what I mean is I might be in the relationship that on paper
• 1:24:10
  fit all the
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_03: criteria that we have described and
• 1:24:15
  so it must be meaningful but somehow something inside me there
• 1:24:24
  is this subtle voice
• 1:24:26
  that says that you know like something is off so like that
• 1:24:34
  conflict that arises
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_03: within me that
• 1:24:39
  makes me sooner or later to face what am I giving meaning to
• 1:24:45
  and what is the real
• 1:24:47
  meaning here is it really that meaningful as I got used to
• 1:24:54
  think about it I love
• 1:24:59
  that what am I giving meaning to that's such a powerful
• 1:25:03
  question and reflection
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_02: point could really shift things yeah
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_02: What about you?
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for asking.
• 1:25:13
  The kind of relationships or even moments in relationships that
• 1:25:18
  really challenge my
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_02: sense of meaning,
• 1:25:20
  and this is really legitimately true at this moment in time in
• 1:25:23
  this season in my
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_02: life,
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_02: is when either...
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: in terms of how society has set up these relationships,
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_02: they're supposed to be meaningful.
• 1:25:36
  And yet there isn't any way for me to engage in those
• 1:25:42
  relationships where I feel
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_02: like I am welcome as all of me,
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_02: where we could actually have a conversation about things that come up,
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_02: where the people that are in these,
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_02: meaningful relationships are open to
• 1:26:00
  SPEAKER_02: want to know and understand more,
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_02: want to work through things,
• 1:26:05
  want to actually share an honest depth and where their triggers
• 1:26:16
  don't immediately
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_02: take them out of any possibility for clarifying,
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_02: verifying,
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_02: growing together,
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_02: cleaning things up.
• 1:26:24
  And that usually really challenges even my sense of meaning
• 1:26:30
  because I guess growing
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_02: up,
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I thought,
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:26:34
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: your parents or your siblings,
• 1:26:39
  those are the people that are really supposed to be the ones
• 1:26:41
  that know you and
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_02: understand you and make room for you.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that is not the experience that I've had personally.
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 1:26:50
  I'm always,
• 1:26:51
  I'm right now,
• 1:26:52
  like I'm really dancing with this,
• 1:26:53
  like what does this mean?
• 1:26:55
  Not just like meaning itself within the relationships,
• 1:26:58
  but also what does this mean?
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think just in general across the board,
• 1:27:06
  whenever there is an opportunity to go deeper or get to know
• 1:27:12
  one another or work
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_02: through something,
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_02: regardless of what the relationship is,
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_02: and then that person chooses not to,
• 1:27:21
  That makes me lose a sense of meaning for that connection
• 1:27:25
  because I don't know what
• 1:27:26
  to do with it at that point because I'm just not willing at
• 1:27:29
  this season in my life
• 1:27:31
  to engage with surface level things and pretend and spend time
• 1:27:39
  with people where I
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_02: don't feel like it's a co-creative,
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_02: generative,
• 1:27:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:43
  SPEAKER_02: penetrative environment.
• 1:27:44
  Yeah.
• 1:27:53
  SPEAKER_03: It is true that because it happens very often when the relationships that
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_03: conventionally are supposed to be the most meaningful,
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_03: in fact,
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_03: may be the most superficial
• 1:28:24
  SPEAKER_03: I definitely,
• 1:28:24
  and I can say it safely as I think none of my relatives will
• 1:28:29
  listen to this
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_03: podcast,
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_03: but the majority,
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_03: you're like,
• 1:28:37
  I feel much more closeness and really the relationship with my
• 1:28:46
  friends rather than
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_03: the many of my relatives.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_02: And actually,
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_02: if you don't mind,
• 1:28:54
  what I just tuned into as you were describing what you were
• 1:28:57
  describing was that
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes there's actually meaning that goes way beyond any of the human
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_02: constructs.
• 1:29:04
  Because I was just tuning into what was my felt sensation when
• 1:29:09
  I was around my
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_02: grandpa,
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_02: who was always very...
• 1:29:14
  specific in what he wanted to pay attention to or what he
• 1:29:17
  wanted to talk about.
• 1:29:18
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of it was all in his world.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_02: He was very creative and artistic, but it was all him and his world.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't really a lot of, what about you?
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me about your life right now.
• 1:29:31
  SPEAKER_02: It was a lot single-focused type of interactions.
• 1:29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And yet...
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_02: It still felt like a meaningful relationship,
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_02: but on some other level,
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_02: like the energetic level,
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_02: because I know him since I was a baby,
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because we've shared this space of family.
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because my DNA speaks to his DNA.
• 1:29:53
  It almost goes way beyond any of the constructs that I usually
• 1:29:56
  associate with
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_02: meaning,
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_02: like deep meaning in a relationship.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to lose that aspect.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_02: There is still something biological, right?
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_02: to these conventional relationships, like it's biological.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_03: If they still occupy some place in your being.
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_03: True.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_03: I so love this phrase.
• 1:30:19
  One aspect that makes those relations challenging is a limit of
• 1:30:28
  autonomy of what
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_03: you personally can choose to do with that relationship.
• 1:30:36
  right because on the one hand yes you can burn all the bridges
• 1:30:43
  and break all the
• 1:30:44
  ties but then again but as you said there is still some things
• 1:30:50
  that sometimes
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_03: invisibly connect us and certain places i guess in our
• 1:30:59
  bigger cells that is not constrained by the physical body that
• 1:31:03
  are occupied by
• 1:31:05
  SPEAKER_03: these people who hold something important.
• 1:31:10
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love it.
• 1:31:12
  You just actually took it to another level because I was
• 1:31:14
  actually zooming into the
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_02: biology of it all.
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you were just like, no, but in the field.
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_02: So outside of the body, that's so true.
• 1:31:22
  SPEAKER_02: It also resides there.
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's a big topic.
• 1:31:31
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like we could talk about it for a long, long, long time.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_02: I actually had another question, but we're out of time.
• 1:31:37
  So maybe for next time that we come back to or continue to
• 1:31:43
  exploring this,
• 1:31:47
  SPEAKER_02: what makes relationships meaningful or what is meaning?
• 1:31:52
  SPEAKER_02: How do we assign meaning to relationships?
• 1:31:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm rephrasing.
• 1:31:56
  So before we close,
• 1:31:57
  because we have to we have to shift to closing before we do.
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Can you both of you share what are you leaving with?
• 1:32:06
  SPEAKER_02: What's still resonating for you around this topic?
• 1:32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Any thoughts, ideas for the future?
• 1:32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Anything.
• 1:32:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm definitely living with the occupying the place in my being.
• 1:32:22
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 1:32:24
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think it's the very,
• 1:32:31
  SPEAKER_03: very beautiful criterion,
• 1:32:34
  SPEAKER_03: the definition of what makes the relationship meaningful.
• 1:32:38
  SPEAKER_03: But also I'm taking this,
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_03: like what the relationship allows for me and for my growth and for like,
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_03: for learning,
• 1:32:52
  SPEAKER_03: for my learning and development.
• 1:32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:32:56
  and also the the possibility of group flow how much do i there
• 1:33:04
  is the space for the
• 1:33:05
  group flow to emerge in this relationship yeah love that how
• 1:33:12
  about you for me it
• 1:33:16
  SPEAKER_03: was really cool to discuss the diversity of meaning and it can be
• 1:33:25
  cool and exciting and pleasant but it can be highly irritating
• 1:33:32
  and it can be
• 1:33:35
  sometimes even like a little bit hostile or we may not
• 1:33:42
  sometimes have a choice
• 1:33:45
  about who occupies our beings just because of the bigger
• 1:33:51
  structures and all these
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_03: These are meaningful relationships.
• 1:34:00
  SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day,
• 1:34:02
  I think it's still up to us who gets a place in our lives and
• 1:34:12
  how much space.
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't say it's like all the control that is in our hands.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_03: But of course, it's a process that
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_03: needs to be constantly, I guess, renegotiated somehow.
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 1:34:33
  SPEAKER_02: The renegotiation,
• 1:34:35
  SPEAKER_02: which also was in Ida's question,
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:34:39
  what am I assigning meaning to and why and how and who am I
• 1:34:44
  assigning meaning to?
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_02: So there is this constant renegotiation.
• 1:34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And the more I feel like we have these conversations, the more
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_02: it helps to bring that awareness,
• 1:34:55
  SPEAKER_02: that consciousness,
• 1:34:58
  and even opens up the space to renegotiate things that maybe
• 1:35:02
  have been put on
• 1:35:02
  SPEAKER_02: autopilot.
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that we get a chance to explore this together.
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to call out to the audience,
• 1:35:13
  SPEAKER_02: whoever's listening to us,
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_02: please share with us,
• 1:35:15
  SPEAKER_02: what is your...
• 1:35:17
  SPEAKER_02: relationship with meaning?
• 1:35:19
  SPEAKER_02: What makes relationships meaningful?
• 1:35:23
  SPEAKER_02: How do you experience meaning in your body in a sensory way?
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Share with us what came up for you.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because I really would love to hear all kinds of different perspectives.
• 1:35:35
  Every time I hear a new perspective and I allow myself to
• 1:35:40
  engage and kind of be
• 1:35:43
  SPEAKER_02: curious and open to it,
• 1:35:45
  SPEAKER_02: it opens up,
• 1:35:47
  unlocks various aspects of me that I'm maybe not engaging with
• 1:35:53
  on a daily basis.
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's always a cool journey and cool experience.
• 1:35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, ladies.
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, we'll see you soon.
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for this meaningful relationship.
• 1:36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, definitely thank you for the meaningful relationship.
• 1:36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening.
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_03: How was it for you?
• 1:36:17
  We believe that the more people experience group flow together,
• 1:36:22
  the better off we all are.
• 1:36:24
  SPEAKER_03: More connected, more creative, more alive.
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_03: So let's expand the field.
• 1:36:30
  SPEAKER_03: If this episode resonated with you, help us spread the word.
• 1:36:37
  SPEAKER_03: Share it with a friend, leave a comment, or give us a rating.
• 1:36:41
  SPEAKER_03: We love you.
• 1:36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Do subscribe so you'll know when the next experiment comes out.
• 1:36:47
  SPEAKER_02: You can also connect with us on our Life & Flow group substack.
• 1:36:51
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear from you.
• 1:36:53
  SPEAKER_02: Let's keep flowing together.