Latest / She Rises with Ashy & Tijana / Mens Mental Health ❤️‍🩹 Fighting your inner critic ft @bradfennell

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Mens Mental Health ❤️‍🩹 Fighting your inner critic ft @bradfennell · She Rises with Ashy & Tijana

0:05
Speaker 1: Apoday production.
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Speaker 2: We begin today by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the
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Speaker 2: land on which we gather today and pay our respects
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Speaker 2: to their elders past and present. We extend that respect
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Speaker 2: to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's here today.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Grow and Glow Podcast. I'm Ashy, I'm Kiara.
0:28
Speaker 1: This is a podcast where we learn, laugh.
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Speaker 2: And level up together.
0:32
Speaker 1: Let's go deep, let the emotions flow, and find the
0:34
Speaker 1: lessons to grow and Glow. Nothing is off the table
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Speaker 1: with Grow and Glow and we're here to be your expander.
0:43
Speaker 1: Hello guys, and welcome back to Grow and Glow.
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Speaker 2: We have got Brad here again.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and today we're.
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Speaker 3: Going to be talking about men's mental health and in.
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Speaker 1: A critic Yeah, so, yeah, I haven't listened to Monday's episode.
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Speaker 1: I can go listen to that first, yes, because it
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Speaker 1: kind of touches on a little bit, but we're going
1:02
Speaker 1: to explore it a lot further. And I just think
1:03
Speaker 1: this is such an important topic. I actually saw a
1:06
Speaker 1: stout the other day and I wrote it down because
1:08
Speaker 1: I just think it's mind blowing talking about men's mental health,
1:11
Speaker 1: because it really just isn't spoken about enough. And we
1:13
Speaker 1: said this in Monday's episode, how much more in touch
1:16
Speaker 1: women are with their feelings. You know, we talk all
1:18
Speaker 1: the time, we express we're vulnerable, like I don't think
1:21
Speaker 1: we have shame in saying that we're upset or this
1:22
Speaker 1: is annoyed me. Whereas men, you know, they've grown up
1:25
Speaker 1: in a generation where it's almost like be quiet, like
1:27
Speaker 1: don't be a pussy man up, Like boys don't cry.
1:30
Speaker 1: So now as adults, it's really uncomfortable for them. But
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Speaker 1: I saw this start and so we lose over three
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Speaker 1: thousand people to suicide each year, seventy five percent of
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Speaker 1: them are men. Well, how much does that show you
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Speaker 1: how much more we need to support our men and
1:46
Speaker 1: create a safe place for them to open up and
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Speaker 1: talk about how they're feeling because they obviously just don't
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Speaker 1: talk about it and feel so much shame and think
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Speaker 1: there's no other way out. Just breaks my heart, Like
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Speaker 1: I've got a son, You've got three sons, You've got
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Speaker 1: a son, We've got partners, you know, brothers, uncles, dads.
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Speaker 1: We just need to give more support. So you work
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Speaker 1: with men all the time, all the time, tell us.
2:08
Speaker 4: About that it's hard for me to speak actually after you,
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Speaker 4: I know that I hadn't seen that stat Yeah, and
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Speaker 4: that is horrific, horrific and bringing men back into who
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Speaker 4: they really are enjoying this life. This experience is so important,
2:27
Speaker 4: you know. And as we're talking in the last episode
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Speaker 4: suicide Addiction, all these things are really impacting men. I
2:34
Speaker 4: think there's something about the nineteen fifties. It wasn't really
2:37
Speaker 4: positive for men because we weren't getting what we really wanted,
2:41
Speaker 4: which was empowered women. Thank God for that change, because
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Speaker 4: life's better when we move into this world. But a
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Speaker 4: nineteen fifties man didn't know. He may have hated his job,
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Speaker 4: but he knew what his purpose was. It was go
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Speaker 4: to work. It was make enough money for the family.
3:03
Speaker 4: Shut yourself down. If you hated what you do, tough,
3:06
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter, but just go and do that. And
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Speaker 4: in some ways the modern world we've lost that, thank God,
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Speaker 4: because we need to have lost that. But now, how
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Speaker 4: do men function in this modern world where women are
3:23
Speaker 4: really empowering themselves, thank God? And where do we as
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Speaker 4: men stand in this place sometimes where women are making
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Speaker 4: more than us, are being more successful. I think they're
3:34
Speaker 4: doing better in school in all these places. So as men,
3:39
Speaker 4: I think it's a calling for us to really grow.
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Speaker 4: Men are struggling, and you know, often when I'm working
3:45
Speaker 4: with couples, it is the man who's scared, as we
3:48
Speaker 4: spoke about in the last episode, kind of Steve turning
3:51
Speaker 4: up with his chair back and we have to say,
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Speaker 4: come on in, you're safe, safe, safe, We've got you.
4:00
Speaker 4: I love you. I grew up in the nineteen seventies
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Speaker 4: and within a amazing mother, and the revolution of women
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Speaker 4: really coming into their own was happening, and I remember
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Speaker 4: disliking what men had done. It's like who we were,
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Speaker 4: until one day I realized, I'm ante myself. I have
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Speaker 4: to love in this lifetime. I'm here as a man,
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Speaker 4: and I have to love this body, this experience. And
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Speaker 4: now I have an experience of really loving men again.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it brought me to tears when I read it,
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Speaker 1: And so I think bringing men into get support, talk
4:40
Speaker 1: about their feelings, it is a sense of safety. Right.
4:43
Speaker 1: Is it as simple as language switches? Like if a
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Speaker 1: wife says to a husband like, oh, you need to
4:48
Speaker 1: go and get some help, they're going to be pretty
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Speaker 1: like yeah, No, what's a way that we can switch
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Speaker 1: up how we encourage them to get more support.
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Speaker 4: I love that you say that, because I was just thinking,
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Speaker 4: then that's a role in the field that comes along
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Speaker 4: and says there's something wrong with you.
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Speaker 1: Yes, they hear right, Yeah, that's what they're hearing.
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Speaker 4: You're saying there's something wrong with.
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Speaker 1: Me, and I'm not capable of fixing it myself, which
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Speaker 1: a masculine man they want to fix and get shipped done.
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Speaker 1: So to have to get outside help it just kind
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Speaker 1: of feels very uncomfortable for them.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you want me to go and share all this,
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Speaker 4: and this is private, and I'm a really private person.
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Speaker 4: I don't want anyone to know anything about this, which
5:28
Speaker 4: is interesting because when I'm working with a couple or
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Speaker 4: a man, the first thing I'm always doing is creating
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Speaker 4: a relationship. One of the reasons I love working with
5:37
Speaker 4: men as well is I actually get it. Yeah. I
5:41
Speaker 4: didn't kind of just walk into this world and go
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Speaker 4: uncomfortable with my feelings and my emotions. I just didn't.
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Speaker 1: You had a big inner critic, didn't you.
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Speaker 4: I had it. The reason I can work so well
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Speaker 4: with the inner critic is it was fucking enormous, and
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Speaker 4: so now I love that work because I get that work.
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Speaker 4: And for years and years I thought this doesn't work,
6:02
Speaker 4: but it does, it does, and it changes you relationship.
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Speaker 4: And so in a sense, what's really interesting when a
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Speaker 4: woman says that to a man, get some help, is
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Speaker 4: I think what you've got to be aware of is
6:16
Speaker 4: sometimes that can feel like a punch. And because you're
6:21
Speaker 4: kind of flaring up the inner critic, So knowing that's
6:25
Speaker 4: really important, you're actually siding with his inner critic. It's
6:30
Speaker 4: really really hard because how do you do this? Maybe
6:32
Speaker 4: we'll explore this right now. How do you do that?
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Speaker 4: But the first thing is you become aware that he's
6:38
Speaker 4: feeling like you're on the side of the critic. Told
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Speaker 4: you weren't enough, told you I used to feel this
6:44
Speaker 4: a lot in myself. You're not enough. You've got to
6:46
Speaker 4: be more achieved, be better, be perfect. And so I
6:51
Speaker 4: tried to do that, and if I didn't that in
6:53
Speaker 4: a critic would come in and go, told you you're
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Speaker 4: not enough. So being aware that the critics there, that
7:00
Speaker 4: you're not just speaking to your man, but there's a
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Speaker 4: third party there that, yeah, how would you say it?
7:07
Speaker 4: Here's a question if you knew there's an inner critic
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Speaker 4: in the room as well.
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Speaker 1: I remember when I first started working with Taylor, I
7:15
Speaker 1: was sorry, just enjoying my own process, and I was
7:18
Speaker 1: so lit up and getting so much growth that I
7:21
Speaker 1: think I worded it in a way that it wasn't
7:23
Speaker 1: like you need help or something's wrong. I was like, Wow,
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Speaker 1: I just didn't know how much more I could learn
7:27
Speaker 1: or hearing his perspective and his life experience, and I
7:30
Speaker 1: made it really exciting. So then when I don't know
7:33
Speaker 1: what the point was when Steve first went and saw Taylor,
7:35
Speaker 1: but I remember when he walked in I just had
7:37
Speaker 1: my session with Taylor. He was like, Oh, my wife
7:39
Speaker 1: just like says, how incredible this is. Like I'm really excited.
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Speaker 1: So the energy was more like excitement to like have
7:45
Speaker 1: a conversation rather than like, oh fuck, something's wrong with me.
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Speaker 1: My wife's thinks I've got to go get this fixed.
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Speaker 1: It was more from a really excited energy. That's right,
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Speaker 1: But I think that I think for a lot of people, yeah,
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Speaker 1: they wouldn't know what to actually say. What would you say?
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Speaker 3: So what I personally did in my situation was I
8:01
Speaker 3: was like, I'm really struggling right now. I feel like
8:04
Speaker 3: I'm in a place where I want to feel more
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Speaker 3: connected to you, like, you know, I love you so much,
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Speaker 3: and I feel like going and doing this together especial
8:11
Speaker 3: because it's so much outside noise. I kind of spoke
8:14
Speaker 3: about that as well, and just saying I feel like
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Speaker 3: this will help us become a team again, you know,
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Speaker 3: so maybe go to the first session together.
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Speaker 1: He was great, he booked and came.
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Speaker 2: But I think.
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Speaker 3: Maybe taking the edge off by even doing the first
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Speaker 3: one together could be nice. Like that was yeah, and
8:28
Speaker 3: then Kurt when I saw you again on his own after,
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Speaker 3: but yeah, just maybe initially, just you know, more so
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Speaker 3: putting it on myself, like being like, I feel like
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Speaker 3: this would really help, you know. Right now, I'm feeling
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Speaker 3: really lost, and you know you've been going through all
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Speaker 3: this with me. Would you mind coming in with me
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Speaker 3: and doing this together as a team.
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Speaker 1: That's nice. I really love your support. I think that
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Speaker 1: would be a really beautiful way to do it, because
8:48
Speaker 1: then the finger is not being pointed at all. It's
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Speaker 1: like this is actually all about me, and I need
8:52
Speaker 1: my man to like come and support. Would you do
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Speaker 1: that with me? I think that's a really.
8:55
Speaker 4: It's really cool. Come with me please, Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Let's play, and your man wants to love on you
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Speaker 1: and help you.
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Speaker 4: Yes, come along on this journey, come with me. That's
9:06
Speaker 4: so cool that really I'm struggling. I'm having a hard time.
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Speaker 4: Come and help me. Let's do this together.
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Speaker 1: That's a beautiful way to do it.
9:15
Speaker 4: Yeah.
9:15
Speaker 1: I think that will definitely help a lot of women
9:17
Speaker 1: who are like oh, because we see it now for
9:18
Speaker 1: them all the time and DM's like, oh, how did
9:21
Speaker 1: you get Steve to go? You know, how do you
9:22
Speaker 1: do that? And it's hard because if they're just so resistant,
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Speaker 1: But I think wording it like that would be super helpful.
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Speaker 3: I think Kur would have gone on his own for
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Speaker 3: his first session. I don't think he would have done
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Speaker 3: it on his own. Yeah, he may have, but not
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Speaker 3: at that point in time when I think we really
9:37
Speaker 3: needed it.
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Speaker 4: This is such a good conversation because there's a role
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Speaker 4: there in the room in men that I don't need help. Yes,
9:46
Speaker 4: there's nothing wrong with me, and getting past that is
9:51
Speaker 4: really important. I think the advantage of being a woman
9:55
Speaker 4: is you have this closer connection to this isn't working
9:58
Speaker 4: for me, there's something not right here where there's this
10:01
Speaker 4: classic saying that men love sitting on the couch and
10:06
Speaker 4: drinking beer and watching sport, because in that moment there's nothing.
10:09
Speaker 4: They experience nothingness, and that's what they really crave. Where
10:14
Speaker 4: a woman wants to experience life, she wants to experience
10:17
Speaker 4: love and relationship, and so this dance happens. He's just like,
10:22
Speaker 4: if I don't have to look at it, if I
10:24
Speaker 4: don't have to think about it, it's better for me.
10:27
Speaker 4: I don't want to have to go and feel suffering
10:28
Speaker 4: and pain and for it to be hard and difficult.
10:31
Speaker 4: It's okay right now, you know Saint George's winning, That's okay. Yeah,
10:40
Speaker 4: But really sitting with that, it's a really tricky conversation
10:44
Speaker 4: and it hits me when you say, that's a question
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Speaker 4: that women really struggle with.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really coming out to get him there, support
10:53
Speaker 1: their man. They want to help them. Yeah, but you're right,
10:56
Speaker 1: a lot of men in this generation don't think they
10:59
Speaker 1: need help, think they won't be able to be helped,
11:02
Speaker 1: or are just so fucking scared to be vulnerable. And
11:05
Speaker 1: it's interesting, like a wonderful lot of men feel more
11:07
Speaker 1: comfortable with a female or a male, Like I prefer
11:11
Speaker 1: male coaches. I've always been more drawn to male coaches
11:13
Speaker 1: because I think I've craved that healthy masculine to help
11:16
Speaker 1: me soften and drop and feel safe to be vulnerable.
11:19
Speaker 1: So wonder with men if they prefer to talk to
11:21
Speaker 1: a man that gets it and understands it, or do
11:23
Speaker 1: they feel, I don't know's he's done male and female?
11:26
Speaker 1: He prefers male. Yeah, some men might be craving the
11:29
Speaker 1: softness of a female. And to hear the other perspective.
11:34
Speaker 4: So often men and women we shame ourselves. One of
11:38
Speaker 4: the classic lines I hear is You're going to think
11:41
Speaker 4: I'm crazy. You don't think there's something wrong with me
11:44
Speaker 4: if I reveal this to you and then they reveal
11:46
Speaker 4: and it's not. It's just that in the creed that
11:50
Speaker 4: says there's something wrong with me, and there's not. Your
11:54
Speaker 4: process you're dreaming is always taking you in a certain direction. Look,
12:00
Speaker 4: and for me, one of the greatest ways for a
12:03
Speaker 4: man to really grow, there's men and women, is to
12:07
Speaker 4: understand his purpose his life. Myth. Men are really drawn
12:10
Speaker 4: to that. You know, what the hell am I really
12:13
Speaker 4: here to do? And this radically changed my life. You
12:15
Speaker 4: talked about the childhood dream, your earliest memory or childhood dream.
12:20
Speaker 4: Hold your life myth, the thing that you're really here
12:23
Speaker 4: to do, and it'll be your primary challenge in life.
12:27
Speaker 4: Once you've got someone's life myth, you know exactly what's
12:30
Speaker 4: really going on. So for me, I was chased by
12:34
Speaker 4: this mad shaman. Clown used to chase me around the
12:38
Speaker 4: universe and I couldn't escape. It was a madman and
12:42
Speaker 4: it was a terrifying dream until I realized I am
12:45
Speaker 4: the mad clown. That's me, that's the part in me
12:50
Speaker 4: that's bringing to the world. My everyday self says, be normal,
12:55
Speaker 4: don't be weird, be like everyone else. But in the background,
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Speaker 4: this thing slapping me around, going I know who you
13:01
Speaker 4: really are. Shine, I'm going to chase you. I'm going
13:05
Speaker 4: to chase you down, and I'm going to get you.
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Speaker 4: And so that now allows me. For many years, I
13:11
Speaker 4: was struggling with that I'm not normal and I'm different.
13:13
Speaker 4: I'm trying to be normal and then something weird happens. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I love that you can, and I've witnessed that with Steve.
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Speaker 1: Is how safe he felt with you because you got
13:22
Speaker 1: where he was at, like, whereas I couldn't fully understand
13:25
Speaker 1: exactly Steve's feeling because I haven't experienced and walked in
13:28
Speaker 1: his shoes. But you're like, I get it. That's how
13:29
Speaker 1: I used to be. And I think that's why a
13:31
Speaker 1: lot of people connect with grow and Glow as we
13:33
Speaker 1: share so much of our real life and our experiences
13:36
Speaker 1: and our struggles that they relate. It humanizes all of
13:38
Speaker 1: us that we all experience similar things. It just looks
13:41
Speaker 1: and feels slightly different. But you're not crazy for feeling
13:44
Speaker 1: like that. I felt like that too, Yes.
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Speaker 4: And that's what we have to do. We have to
13:48
Speaker 4: tell stories. One of the reasons I love mythology is
13:51
Speaker 4: it tells the story of us. The fairy tales and
13:54
Speaker 4: all these things are our own journeys, following breadcrumbs and
13:58
Speaker 4: signals and getting lost in the woods. These are all
14:01
Speaker 4: our own stories. The hero stories Joseph Campbell, The Hero
14:04
Speaker 4: with the Faces is the story of us which is
14:07
Speaker 4: told out again and again and again. This story of
14:12
Speaker 4: the hero, our journey. It's not easy, but we need
14:16
Speaker 4: places to help us to unfold and understand. Yeah, you know,
14:21
Speaker 4: really we're talking about aware relationships. We're talking about where
14:26
Speaker 4: men and there's nothing more powerful. Men have to have
14:30
Speaker 4: something to give to this world. Otherwise we would not
14:34
Speaker 4: be here. This world is intelligent and it's bringing forth
14:38
Speaker 4: all these things for a reason. We also are here
14:41
Speaker 4: for a reason, and we do not need these guys
14:44
Speaker 4: checking out early.
14:46
Speaker 5: No.
14:46
Speaker 4: No, and suicide has an aspect on a dreaming level
14:51
Speaker 4: of killing something off. Don't kill yourself off. There's a
14:55
Speaker 4: part of you that needs to go. It's a transformation,
14:57
Speaker 4: it's a death. Have the death, but have the phoenix rising.
15:01
Speaker 4: The rebirth makes me emotional because it's like, don't go.
15:05
Speaker 4: I want to say to men, it's so amazing that
15:08
Speaker 4: you brought that up, because there's a part of me
15:10
Speaker 4: that says, men, don't leave us here, stay with us
15:13
Speaker 4: by all means, have a death, but have a rebirth
15:17
Speaker 4: as well. To do that, you have to stay here
15:20
Speaker 4: long enough. Yeah, part of you wants to go. Maybe
15:23
Speaker 4: part of you needs to go, but there's another part
15:26
Speaker 4: that we need be because it's all of us together
15:30
Speaker 4: that are going to make this world a better place.
15:34
Speaker 1: With working with men now, in this modern day society,
15:37
Speaker 1: what would you say is the most common or prominent
15:41
Speaker 1: problem or issue that they're struggling with?
15:43
Speaker 4: Relationship, relationship, fear, emotions, feeling like I think it's what's
15:48
Speaker 4: always been there in relationship. What I hear a lot
15:52
Speaker 4: is I'm not enough. I'm trying to be more, I'm
15:54
Speaker 4: trying to be better, And there's a beginner critic there
15:58
Speaker 4: that's saying I'm not enough. The way we do that
16:01
Speaker 4: is by fighting up against that critical figure. The other
16:04
Speaker 4: part heart to it is gambling addiction.
16:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probly huge, right.
16:09
Speaker 4: It's just huge, and for men helping them to pick
16:12
Speaker 4: up the essence of what they're really looking for, what
16:15
Speaker 4: they're craving, what they need more of, like we said
16:19
Speaker 4: in the last episode, in a sense, getting more drunk
16:21
Speaker 4: without drinking. Yeah, having more wins, not just on the
16:26
Speaker 4: Pokey's really feeling a win in life.
16:29
Speaker 1: Why is it that men have stronger addictive personalities than females.
16:33
Speaker 4: Because they haven't been doing the work, so the forces
16:37
Speaker 4: inside of them are coming out stronger. Women can go,
16:42
Speaker 4: can feel, and can express yourself and can say, can communicate.
16:48
Speaker 4: A man bottles that up and says, you know, or
16:52
Speaker 4: I don't feel love, or I don't communicate that. So
16:55
Speaker 4: it comes out split off, It comes out sideways. If
16:57
Speaker 4: we don't do the inner work, if we don't pick
16:59
Speaker 4: up in a sense, our shadows the parts that lie
17:03
Speaker 4: underneath us. Then they come out sideways in the addictions. Yeah,
17:07
Speaker 4: in the addictions. They come out in affairs, they come
17:10
Speaker 4: out in Oh but you love me. I see that
17:13
Speaker 4: a lot with affairs. Oh but you know, what is
17:15
Speaker 4: it that that person gives you? Ah, that's what you
17:20
Speaker 4: need more of, because often there's a dreaming and when
17:24
Speaker 4: we do that, we can explore even the fantasy. What
17:27
Speaker 4: is it you're noticing? What is it you actually get
17:29
Speaker 4: from this person? Oh, they're like, make me feel like
17:33
Speaker 4: this and this and this. Okay, So that's what you
17:36
Speaker 4: need more of, because you may not get that with
17:38
Speaker 4: the person because that person's a human being and they're
17:40
Speaker 4: also a pain in the ass like all of us,
17:43
Speaker 4: and so you don't just get the beauty and the
17:45
Speaker 4: love and all that sort of stuff. You get this too.
17:48
Speaker 4: So let's get the stuff that you really want. Let's
17:51
Speaker 4: get the alcohol, the state behind it. I work with
17:56
Speaker 4: someone who went from drinking a bottle of wine a
17:59
Speaker 4: night to drinking a glass and the way we did
18:04
Speaker 4: it was slowly everything right down and notice what's the experience?
18:09
Speaker 4: Actually really fully have the experience, because what you can
18:12
Speaker 4: do is you're going to have three or four glasses
18:14
Speaker 4: and you've missed it. I don't even know what I
18:16
Speaker 4: was looking for, but really have that experience fully ahead
18:20
Speaker 4: a time where I was working with a lot of
18:22
Speaker 4: illicit drug addiction, and these are some of the most
18:24
Speaker 4: amazing people because they're hungry for something else. Now they're
18:29
Speaker 4: complicated and it's difficult, but they're hungry. They said, I
18:33
Speaker 4: actually want to get high in life. The substance ain't
18:36
Speaker 4: going to do it for you, but yeah, let's help
18:38
Speaker 4: you to get a little more high in life. That's important.
18:42
Speaker 1: And most men that come to you, are they coming
18:45
Speaker 1: on their own willingness or is it normally a wife
18:49
Speaker 1: or someone pushing them and they're dragging their feet as
18:52
Speaker 1: a couple a couple of ye.
18:54
Speaker 4: And then it goes into men's work. Yes, sometimes because
18:59
Speaker 4: of the groups I'm working with men other men talk
19:02
Speaker 4: to them. True, yep, and that can be a nice
19:05
Speaker 4: of that. But a lot of times men don't talk
19:08
Speaker 4: about getting help and support. Women will be.
19:10
Speaker 1: Going, yeah, I went some help. We do a whole
19:14
Speaker 1: reel on it.
19:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're talking to your girlfriend and we're still kind
19:18
Speaker 4: of hiding in the cupboard. You know, me and the
19:20
Speaker 4: dude were in the cupboard hiding and yeah, I'm not
19:22
Speaker 4: ready to come out yet, but I actually do work
19:26
Speaker 4: on myself.
19:27
Speaker 1: And so you do men's groups, that's cool.
19:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have madurra ba men's groups and leading men's groups.
19:35
Speaker 1: So what happens in the men's group on the walls.
19:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, mostly talk about it. It's unfolding there. This
19:41
Speaker 4: is what's really interesting. I set up all these exercises,
19:44
Speaker 4: awareness exercises, and someone I love that you say this,
19:48
Speaker 4: And here I am doing all these incredible exercises and
19:51
Speaker 4: someone said to me, you know what, my favorite part
19:54
Speaker 4: of this was just realizing there's other men just like me.
19:59
Speaker 4: I almost don't have to do anything.
20:01
Speaker 1: Other than the collective energy there and.
20:05
Speaker 4: Get them talking and going. This is hard for.
20:08
Speaker 1: Me because most men have to have a beer to
20:09
Speaker 1: be able to drop, get rid of the any critic,
20:11
Speaker 1: and then have a conversation. Like Steve doesn't drink much anymore,
20:14
Speaker 1: but I remember him used to saying that it's the
20:16
Speaker 1: only way I can connect with my friends. We're not
20:18
Speaker 1: like you girls. We don't just chat and tell each
20:20
Speaker 1: other all of our feelings and what our pool look
20:22
Speaker 1: like and you know, you know, we talk about everything.
20:25
Speaker 1: But he's like, unless I have a couple of beers,
20:26
Speaker 1: like my friends don't talk for it's just so surface level.
20:30
Speaker 4: This is what a group does, is it gives permission
20:33
Speaker 4: and people go, I feel like that. Sometimes my wife
20:36
Speaker 4: drives me crazy. Yeah I know I shouldn't say that,
20:39
Speaker 4: but yeah, and for a moment you can go. You
20:41
Speaker 4: can say that, yeah, feel free or sometimes I worry
20:45
Speaker 4: about my kids, or oh I do too.
20:48
Speaker 1: Once one opens up, it just like opens everyone up
20:50
Speaker 1: and they feel safe, feel.
20:51
Speaker 4: It gives permission. Beautiful, and so sometimes things can only
20:55
Speaker 4: be healed in a group, particularly if there's trauma around groups.
20:59
Speaker 4: So for a lot of men, there's trauma around in groups.
21:01
Speaker 4: In this sense, the trauma is don't be used, so off,
21:05
Speaker 4: don't be anything different, all these types of things. So
21:08
Speaker 4: the healing has to happen within the group. So the
21:11
Speaker 4: group allows that to happen. It gives permission and says
21:15
Speaker 4: it's okay to be yourself.
21:17
Speaker 3: Stops the old stories too, of saying that we need
21:20
Speaker 3: to have a beer to be able to be accepted.
21:22
Speaker 1: For who we are.
21:23
Speaker 4: It's really really interesting and I noticed that I always
21:26
Speaker 4: say men struggle to go and sit down and have
21:28
Speaker 4: cucumber sandwich is the high tea. Yeah. I actually connect
21:33
Speaker 4: with a lot of my mates climbing and we go
21:35
Speaker 4: to the gym when we climb. But what's really interesting
21:38
Speaker 4: is we're doing something we like to or out mountain biking.
21:41
Speaker 4: We're doing something, but the conversation because who I am.
21:44
Speaker 4: It's a space where you can go, hey, you doing Yeah,
21:47
Speaker 4: it's safe to go. I've had a hard time with
21:50
Speaker 4: this or this. So it's really good if you can
21:54
Speaker 4: create an environment where men are doing things. Yes, often
21:58
Speaker 4: where they're in their body or they're in a space.
22:00
Speaker 4: These men's are.
22:01
Speaker 1: Worksheads so cool, like two years.
22:06
Speaker 4: Amazing to do there and just have a space because
22:08
Speaker 4: sometimes it's like you're doing and it's like, yeah, I'm
22:10
Speaker 4: doing good. I'm like building this table. Life's amazing. Yeah,
22:14
Speaker 4: but then you know I'm building this table, but I'm
22:16
Speaker 4: thinking about my son and so suddenly there's a moment
22:19
Speaker 4: and there's a space where there's permission. So I think
22:23
Speaker 4: it's so healthy because you're right. Alcohol was the place
22:27
Speaker 4: that took the critic away, that put the critic to sleep,
22:31
Speaker 4: and men could suddenly go, oh, now I can express myself.
22:35
Speaker 4: The problem with that using alcohol is the critic wakes
22:38
Speaker 4: up the next day it's called a hangover. Yea beats
22:40
Speaker 4: a living crap out of you.
22:42
Speaker 1: And it's the same with women too, Like if you
22:43
Speaker 1: see women you know, get drunk and like, you know,
22:45
Speaker 1: the normal shy, good girl, it's like out slut dancing
22:49
Speaker 1: and dropping it and like you know, really sexual and
22:51
Speaker 1: like beautiful. But then that's really come out because that's
22:54
Speaker 1: within her, but she's shaming it and the next day
22:56
Speaker 1: she's like, oh my fucking god, I can't believe I
22:58
Speaker 1: was grinding up against that guy.
23:00
Speaker 4: You know. It's similar, right, that's exactly right, And there's
23:02
Speaker 4: a part of her that goes, I want to feel more.
23:05
Speaker 1: Yes, that's what it's saying.
23:07
Speaker 4: When we experience myself alone want to feel alive and
23:11
Speaker 4: dance on the floor, I may not think, yeah, I
23:15
Speaker 4: may not want to grind up against that guy. So
23:17
Speaker 4: it's good to keep your every day a when it's
23:19
Speaker 4: a little bit too exactly, which your alcohol doesn't allow
23:22
Speaker 4: you to. But then you haven't done any work. Yeah,
23:26
Speaker 4: I haven't actually fought the critic figure. And you have
23:30
Speaker 4: to do battle against that critical figure. Otherwise it's going
23:33
Speaker 4: to come back and it's going to be pissed at.
23:34
Speaker 4: You know, it's going to beat the crap at it.
23:37
Speaker 1: I would love for you to talk and walk us
23:40
Speaker 1: through because something I've noticed in our forum is we've
23:42
Speaker 1: both seen psychologists and both seen life coaches, and I've
23:46
Speaker 1: got a very strong opinion with how much I prefer
23:49
Speaker 1: life coaches. I remember the first three psychologists I went
23:52
Speaker 1: to in a row because I was trying to find
23:54
Speaker 1: someone to help me through all the hate that I
23:55
Speaker 1: was going through online. They didn't even know what snapchat was.
23:59
Speaker 1: I felt like they were just ticking the box. And
24:01
Speaker 1: this is not to put psychologists down, because I think
24:03
Speaker 1: you know they have their place and they're amazing, and
24:05
Speaker 1: that you know it's finding the right person. Same with
24:06
Speaker 1: the life coach. What I love about live coaches is
24:09
Speaker 1: I feel they are more connecting, more vulnerable, They share
24:14
Speaker 1: a lot about themselves as well. I just feel like
24:17
Speaker 1: it's more a more safer environment to go deep, rather
24:20
Speaker 1: than you feeling like client person. Yeah one hour is done,
24:23
Speaker 1: tick next sea you in two weeks. Can you walk
24:26
Speaker 1: and talk us through what a session looks and feels
24:28
Speaker 1: like for you that you take them through.
24:30
Speaker 4: What does a session look like? When someone turns up,
24:33
Speaker 4: I have no idea what I'm doing. It's like we've
24:36
Speaker 4: spoken the other thing. It's the beginner's mind. I actually
24:39
Speaker 4: do know what i'm doing. I know deeply what I'm doing.
24:41
Speaker 4: But I'm a beginner. And so I get to sit
24:44
Speaker 4: with the person and go, how interesting, what do you
24:47
Speaker 4: want to bring? What's going on for you? And then
24:50
Speaker 4: we get to explore it. And I'm thinking about what
24:53
Speaker 4: your everyday identity. I love your everyday identity. But what's
24:58
Speaker 4: almost happening but not quite. What's the experience that's trying
25:01
Speaker 4: to come forward? What are you dreaming about? What's coming
25:05
Speaker 4: forward for you? What are the parts of you that
25:08
Speaker 4: you shame and you don't want to see. Let's go
25:10
Speaker 4: there for a moment. I'm angry. I don't want to
25:13
Speaker 4: be angry anymore. Okay, let's just notice your anger for
25:17
Speaker 4: a moment. Let's really explore that and see where it goes.
25:20
Speaker 4: And sometimes I'm working with someone and they're like a bear.
25:23
Speaker 4: It's like and it's like, how would you be in
25:26
Speaker 4: life if you're more bear like? Let's explore who you
25:31
Speaker 4: are and what's going on for you. Let's step into
25:35
Speaker 4: the mystery of who you really are and what's really
25:38
Speaker 4: going on. I'm going to follow you. My foundation the
25:41
Speaker 4: way I work is I'll follow you not just your
25:45
Speaker 4: everyday self, but all the parts of yourself that you
25:49
Speaker 4: don't know about, because there's no point going to someone
25:53
Speaker 4: and working on exactly what you know. In a sense,
25:57
Speaker 4: it's one level. You know, I want to give up smoking, Okay,
26:00
Speaker 4: we can do that. How many packets a day? What
26:03
Speaker 4: do you want to do? How are we going to do?
26:05
Speaker 4: But it's not as interesting as going into the dreaming level.
26:08
Speaker 4: What do you get when you're smoking? Oh? When I
26:11
Speaker 4: smoke without triggering the addiction, I notice I have a
26:15
Speaker 4: moment of oh just peace. Oh how interesting. We've never
26:21
Speaker 4: really slowed down and noticed that. Could you do with
26:23
Speaker 4: more of that in your life? Yeah? Absolutely so really
26:28
Speaker 4: plain exploring the mystery is what's interesting to me.
26:32
Speaker 1: Your coaching just sounds very intuitive. You don't have a
26:35
Speaker 1: book that you follow in. I've got to say this,
26:36
Speaker 1: I've got to talk about this, I've got to ask
26:38
Speaker 1: these three questions and get it done within the sixty minutes.
26:40
Speaker 1: It's like very intuitive to like, what's happening for them.
26:43
Speaker 1: That's how are they feeling? What's their capacity right now?
26:47
Speaker 1: How far can I push? Where can I push?
26:49
Speaker 4: That's right. Welcome. My first thing is welcome. It's so
26:53
Speaker 4: I don't say those words, but that's the feeling welcome.
26:56
Speaker 4: It's so good to have you here. Ah, I'm so glad.
26:59
Speaker 4: I mean it, I deeply. I like when I say
27:01
Speaker 4: it touches me. And then I follow feedback. That's what
27:06
Speaker 4: I work with. There's three types of feedback. First feedback
27:10
Speaker 4: is negative. Some of my training is getting it wrong
27:13
Speaker 4: and being okay with yourself. You have to have done
27:16
Speaker 4: in a therapeutic model, you have to have done enough
27:18
Speaker 4: work to be able to get it wrong. Because if
27:20
Speaker 4: I say, you know, it sounds like you're struggling with
27:25
Speaker 4: your wife, and that man goes, no, I'm fine. I'm like,
27:29
Speaker 4: good for you. I'm wrong. What do I know? It's
27:33
Speaker 4: negative feedback. If he's like, yeah, I'm really struggling with
27:38
Speaker 4: my wife. I'm having a really hard time. At the moment,
27:40
Speaker 4: it's like we're on positive feedback. He's giving me energy
27:45
Speaker 4: to go. That's the way that's there. We're going to follow.
27:48
Speaker 4: If it's edge feedback, which is like me, No, I'm not.
27:56
Speaker 1: What do you do with that?
27:57
Speaker 5: There's energy, there's energy that says there's something here worth
28:02
Speaker 5: really exploring, and I may go, I'm noticing there's a
28:07
Speaker 5: bit going on there.
28:09
Speaker 4: What's happening for you in that moment? Maybe we could
28:11
Speaker 4: explore it. I push it three times. If it's still
28:14
Speaker 4: edge feedback, I drop it because I don't want to
28:16
Speaker 4: become abusive. No, you have to do right.
28:19
Speaker 1: I may not be the right, but you give three
28:21
Speaker 1: invitations to go there.
28:23
Speaker 4: To go there. Yeah, I'm noticing. She drives you crazy sometimes,
28:27
Speaker 4: doesn't she.
28:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
28:31
Speaker 4: It's funny you should say that.
28:33
Speaker 1: I don't want to say.
28:35
Speaker 4: And so we get to open that door, the place
28:37
Speaker 4: where you go. Oh, I don't want to go there.
28:40
Speaker 4: I can't speak about her in a negative way. I
28:42
Speaker 4: love her. It's like I love her too. But maybe
28:45
Speaker 4: just for a moment, we could just say what you think.
28:51
Speaker 4: What we're doing is following nature, following the energy, following
28:54
Speaker 4: the beautiful. It's really really, really powerful and it stops abuse.
28:59
Speaker 4: If I just ignore feedback and I push on and
29:03
Speaker 4: go no, no, no, I'm right, and I know what's
29:06
Speaker 4: for you.
29:06
Speaker 1: They would not feel good for anyone and how do
29:09
Speaker 1: I don't know.
29:10
Speaker 4: I get some ideas sometimes I can try them out,
29:12
Speaker 4: but I have to trust that this person really knows.
29:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that, and it's actually so true because
29:17
Speaker 1: no session we've done has ever been the same. Like
29:19
Speaker 1: the other day when we did one, I was like,
29:21
Speaker 1: I'm going to fall asleep. You're like, yes, let's go
29:24
Speaker 1: ninety percent sleep because that's what you need. So I
29:25
Speaker 1: was still like awake and I was listening, but God,
29:28
Speaker 1: I needed that rest and I slept afterwards. I was like,
29:31
Speaker 1: that was such a different session.
29:32
Speaker 4: Because there was an edge. Ye, all I did was
29:34
Speaker 4: follow you. I had no idea that I know we're
29:37
Speaker 4: going to jump on and you're going to fall asleep.
29:41
Speaker 4: What I did know is I trusted. I had faith.
29:44
Speaker 4: So what I really do is I have faith in you,
29:47
Speaker 4: in your dreaming, in your wholeness, not just the little you.
29:50
Speaker 4: The little you is I'm vulnerable and I love that part.
29:54
Speaker 4: But your wholeness and the wholeness took us to the
29:57
Speaker 4: place you had an edge to really deeply relaxing. There's
30:02
Speaker 4: still a part of you that gets core. Is this
30:04
Speaker 4: okay to say, yeah, please do share it's still a
30:06
Speaker 4: part that says, but I'm an achiever and make things
30:10
Speaker 4: happen and I can rule the world. That's like a
30:13
Speaker 4: little part that still comes in and it's actually no,
30:17
Speaker 4: just drop into your own dreaming for a moment and
30:19
Speaker 4: then you're like, ah, your feedbacks.
30:22
Speaker 1: On it was so perfect too. Because I'm an open book.
30:24
Speaker 1: I'm happy to share this. But I went to you
30:26
Speaker 1: because I was struggling with a few things personally, and
30:29
Speaker 1: also I was feeling reactive to Steven where he was
30:33
Speaker 1: at with just work and wanting more attention. But going
30:37
Speaker 1: into that you allowing me and encouraging me to relax
30:41
Speaker 1: and go ninety percent asleep, it got me to be
30:44
Speaker 1: more on that energy. And since then I've been able
30:47
Speaker 1: to carry that energy through to my relationship and to
30:50
Speaker 1: my conversations and to my needs, desires and frustrations in
30:54
Speaker 1: a more calm way. And guess what is so much
30:56
Speaker 1: more receptive. Whereas I'm like, hey, look at me, I
31:00
Speaker 1: want attention, He's like, ah, so that's why that session
31:04
Speaker 1: was so perfect, And like, yeah, you're right, there is
31:06
Speaker 1: still that achieve in me that feels like I need
31:08
Speaker 1: to be like even you know, if I've got an hour, Brad,
31:10
Speaker 1: I want to get as much out of it as
31:11
Speaker 1: I can. But sleep, Yeah, that was exactly what I needed.
31:14
Speaker 1: And that was such an overflow effect for you know,
31:17
Speaker 1: even still to this day, which is so beautiful and
31:19
Speaker 1: I just that's what I love about you and life coaches.
31:21
Speaker 1: It's just it is so intuitive and you don't know.
31:24
Speaker 1: Sometimes don't even know what I'm going there for, but
31:26
Speaker 1: I know that I need support and help and it's
31:29
Speaker 1: just perfect and beautiful.
31:30
Speaker 4: And you don't know. So to any man out there,
31:32
Speaker 4: you don't have to know, yes, And I don't know.
31:36
Speaker 4: That's why I say when I say I haven't got
31:38
Speaker 4: a clue, of course, I've got to clung it and follow
31:40
Speaker 4: your feedback. I've got this method in my background that
31:43
Speaker 4: I'm actually using. I'm looking for signals and following you.
31:46
Speaker 4: The start of the session, I had no idea that
31:49
Speaker 4: it was going to be you falling asleep. Yeah, leep, yeah,
31:53
Speaker 4: But suddenly you find this state and then what happens.
31:56
Speaker 4: It's like, how would you live your life a little
31:58
Speaker 4: more from this?
31:59
Speaker 1: Yeah?
31:59
Speaker 4: We don't life enough asleep, meaning the state of sleep,
32:05
Speaker 4: it gets marginalized. We achieve and we push and we
32:08
Speaker 4: drive again. Good. Perfect. That's an okay part, But actually
32:12
Speaker 4: what's really calling is this deep, deep sense of peace
32:15
Speaker 4: and relax And then how am I with Steve When
32:19
Speaker 4: I'm like this, Oh, it changes and he starts changing
32:22
Speaker 4: and it's like, it's weird. We have to trust our
32:25
Speaker 4: own nature, we have to trust the body senterm That's
32:28
Speaker 4: one thing that I sometimes do is working with So
32:31
Speaker 4: sometimes it's roles, it's relationships, there's two people in the room,
32:35
Speaker 4: even if there's one person in the room because the
32:37
Speaker 4: wife's in the room and we're fighting up against or whatever.
32:41
Speaker 4: But sometimes it's a body symptom and it's experience. Actually
32:44
Speaker 4: I am tired and I have not embraced that. And
32:49
Speaker 4: I would say there's a lot of men out there
32:50
Speaker 4: also who are feeling that as well. I should be
32:54
Speaker 4: achieving something, I should be better, I've got to be more.
32:57
Speaker 4: But actually I'm tired.
32:58
Speaker 1: And they just haven't given like amazing emotional because they
33:00
Speaker 1: haven't given themselves permission. And I was running so much
33:03
Speaker 1: of my masculine that I didn't give my self permission
33:05
Speaker 1: to soften and relax and rest that it was actually uncomfortable,
33:09
Speaker 1: Like I remember feeling like I remember saying to you,
33:11
Speaker 1: I don't want to fall asleep, like I'm trying to
33:13
Speaker 1: stay away here, like trying to fight against it, or
33:15
Speaker 1: as if we just give ourselves up permission, like it's
33:18
Speaker 1: so beautiful, it's what the body needs. And I just
33:19
Speaker 1: feel like everyone listening, I guaranteed ninety nine percent of
33:22
Speaker 1: us and needing more of that and having someone to
33:25
Speaker 1: hold that space to, like say it's okay and this
33:28
Speaker 1: is the good thing, like go there, yeah, so nice.
33:31
Speaker 4: So important. Trust so as you if I go there
33:35
Speaker 4: and I fall asleep, I'm not going to get anything done. Yeah,
33:38
Speaker 4: what are you talking about? You're insane. It was like, ah,
33:41
Speaker 4: just for a moment, just trust me, just for a second.
33:43
Speaker 4: You can come out of this whenever you like, trust
33:45
Speaker 4: this experience. Yeah, and you were doing work in that moment.
33:48
Speaker 4: Also for me, that was a role that a lot
33:51
Speaker 4: of men as well get caught in.
33:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:53
Speaker 4: So in that moment, yeah, let go, it's okay. There
33:57
Speaker 4: is a process. I've done many processes in myself of
34:00
Speaker 4: letting go. A great teacher I was watching a seminar
34:04
Speaker 4: and it's an amazing, amazing facilitator was working with someone
34:09
Speaker 4: who said I feel like a loser, and it really
34:11
Speaker 4: touched me. It's like, yeah, lose. We all lose. We
34:14
Speaker 4: don't embrace, we're all embracing. We're too far on the
34:18
Speaker 4: side of winning and achieving. But ultimately we all lose.
34:23
Speaker 4: We lose these bodies, we lose everything we hold on
34:26
Speaker 4: till we have to leave the world. Lose a little now, yeah,
34:30
Speaker 4: and let go and then live a little from that
34:34
Speaker 4: place as well. Yeah, hold on and then let go.
34:39
Speaker 4: And I remember I had a dream where I was
34:40
Speaker 4: falling and I was falling, and I was like freaking
34:43
Speaker 4: out and I was like, I'm falling, and then suddenly
34:47
Speaker 4: I realized, oh no, I'm flying. And I had this
34:51
Speaker 4: epiphany that life really is about us falling. When we
34:54
Speaker 4: hit the bottom, we're out. But on the way, we
34:57
Speaker 4: can feel like we're falling, or we can actually just
34:59
Speaker 4: learn to fly. It's a big journey. Eight y years
35:02
Speaker 4: fly at the bottom, fly on your journey, Like.
35:08
Speaker 1: So beautiful, Oh, such an awesome conversation, and just thank
35:12
Speaker 1: you so much for your work that you've done over
35:14
Speaker 1: the years for me. But I'm so excited that you've
35:16
Speaker 1: got to come on here and everyone else can have
35:19
Speaker 1: like a taste of you, saying to Kiara, like, we
35:21
Speaker 1: always talk about growing up, you know, with not so
35:24
Speaker 1: healthy masculines, and lately I've been learning more about the
35:27
Speaker 1: masculine shield that I wear because as a young girl,
35:30
Speaker 1: I didn't feel safe to soften, and now I'm softening.
35:33
Speaker 1: I've just been reflecting on the men that I feel
35:36
Speaker 1: really safe and that I feel like not a little girl,
35:38
Speaker 1: but I feel like almost turn into like a giddy
35:40
Speaker 1: little girl that gets playful and I don't know, just
35:43
Speaker 1: feels different. And you were one of those men for me.
35:46
Speaker 1: Thankes you cry. It's so nice though, it's.
35:53
Speaker 4: So touchy, and we get to heal you and you do.
35:57
Speaker 4: There's a little girl in you as well. We all
36:00
Speaker 4: have that's a little girl in.
36:02
Speaker 1: Me too, yeah, all of us. And for men, it's
36:04
Speaker 1: also really important for men to have other healthy masculine men.
36:08
Speaker 1: They feel safe. For a lot of you know, a
36:09
Speaker 1: lot of men these days didn't grow up with loving,
36:11
Speaker 1: soft dads that gave them permission to feel So that's
36:14
Speaker 1: why I pushed so much. They're having a therapist or
36:17
Speaker 1: a coach or psychologist, whoever it is that you connect with,
36:20
Speaker 1: having them support you and like tell you that you're
36:22
Speaker 1: safe and that it's okay to feel all of this
36:24
Speaker 1: and to help you navigate through the tougher times. I
36:27
Speaker 1: just honestly changed my life and it's something I will
36:29
Speaker 1: never not do.
36:30
Speaker 4: We've always had elders, I've had those that have walked
36:33
Speaker 4: before us, yeah, and have helped this guide us on
36:37
Speaker 4: our own journey. I don't want anyone to walk my path.
36:40
Speaker 4: I want to support them walking their own path. I
36:42
Speaker 4: had this vision. I've climbed many mountains, and now I
36:46
Speaker 4: want to help other people climb not my mountain.
36:49
Speaker 1: They're mountain beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us
36:54
Speaker 1: incredible conversations. I'm sure we'll have you back on the
36:56
Speaker 1: podcast later on. And if you loved this episode, please
36:59
Speaker 1: make sure you share it around. I think there's so
37:01
Speaker 1: many men and women that would benefit from listening to this.
37:04
Speaker 1: And again, if someone's listening, man or woman, anyone, couples,
37:08
Speaker 1: where do they find if they've optic book and find.
37:10
Speaker 4: Me at bradfanel dot com, spell bradfanel f l dot com.
37:16
Speaker 4: You follow me.
37:17
Speaker 1: It's so much great content on Instagram the reels. Thank
37:20
Speaker 1: you so much.
37:22
Speaker 4: Thank you,