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Transcript

How do you build brand equity with AI? · Two in Twenty

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to another episode of Two in Twenty, where we talk about all things marketing in asset management.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm talking to Andy Washburn, who is a consultant, he's got his own business, TV Advisory, and he also chairs the CMO Roundtable, which is a collection of about 15 different asset management CMOs.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I caught up with him recently in London.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: There are a number of themes that we've been talking about that a lot of our clients are discussing.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we dig into some of that, be it building brand equity in this AI era, or kind of the role of marketing as an educator and what that means for content strategies, how they sit alongside.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there's lots in there, and probably it's the tip of the iceberg.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like uh we'll see more of Andy on these podcasts.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So straight to my conversation with him.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: So great to talk to you today.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a lot to get through.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe as a bit of preamble, you could give us a quick snapshot of your career to date, and then we can get into some questions.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to, Twink, and I appreciate you having me.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been in the asset management space now for 35 plus years.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Most of that time span has been in marketing and product uh-related roles at firms, you know, like Putnam, AmeriPrize, State Street, and most recently at MFS, where I was CMO for 11 years.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And at MFS, I was able to build out and lead a global team of over 150 people.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And over that time period, we were able to bring the MFS brand rankings in the U.S.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: but also internationally from the sort of low teens in the brand rankings to the top five or six.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we did a lot behind that to help lift the brand.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that as things are changing and evolving, as you know, in the marketing landscape, there's always those challenges that you have to deal with along the way.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now I am no longer with MFS.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm now advising firms on marketing and commercial operating models, data, technology, distribution.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot facing marketing leaders today.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I am now working with them with a lot of firms to help them tackle some of these challenges.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And also I'm chairing what's called the Asset Management CMO Roundtable.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a group of roughly 15 CMOs across the asset management landscape, excuse me, and it's global, so we've got input from folks that are US-based and non-U.S.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: based.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a group that really is trying to take on some of the really big macro challenges that they're facing in the industry.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I've spent my career on the inside, but now, you know, I'm seeing a lot of the same issues and problems across a lot of firms in my role as an advisor.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, welcome to that seat.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a great seat working alongside CMOs and helping them tackle those challenges.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, and I know Andy, you've just been here working through a few days, sessions with those those leaders.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think are the defining issues on the minds of CMOs at the moment then?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are the kind of key areas of focus that everyone keeps coming back to?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's um great question.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So at a very high level, I I think what most the biggest issue is that these these folks are being asked to transform their marketing departments.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what that means to me is they're being asked to really transform their groups and move from being a service function to a growth engine.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And now with the incoming adoption of AI, it's accelerating the shift.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually to some degree exposing firms that aren't quite ready for that.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So with the marketing transformation challenge that they're faced with, they're also being asked to prove that they can generate commercial impact while budgets are getting tighter.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the growth targets for them are higher, the demands on them to contribute to flows, uh, to be measured around commercial uh metrics versus activity metrics.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's a really challenging time for them.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: The other big issue that we've been talking about with the group is AI and you know, where do we start?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, most of the folks feel like, hey, look, I know I need to get on top of AI.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know how to do it.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where to incorporate it into my model.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: When are we ready?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of these big issues that that they're facing.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then maybe the the last big issue that I'm seeing is that all of this is really impacting the operating model for CMOs.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes hiring, team structure, upskilling, you know, do we build versus buy certain capabilities?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So just right off the top there, you can see these are very, very big issues that they're faced with and ones that we continue to have really productive dialogue around.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess to your point, there's so many layers to that, kind of a cultural level, as much as making sure that those strategic levers are being seized and seen through.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're often like quite multi-year projects that sort of need to really flow through from that original decision all the way through to the impact.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it really takes that dynamic of working with the CEO, the other sort of C-suite to ensure that communication, collaboration, and delivery is understood.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we see often is, you know, that you've got to sort of demonstrate the momentum and the results through the period of change as much as the outcome and the kind of the big transformation as well.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you see?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like so trying to manage the stakeholders through the process and deliver on the kind of momentum and the milestones as much as the end outcome?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we do.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I I would say that sales and marketing alignment is is a really that issue is is really becoming a lot more visible and important for firms, not just for the CMOs, but you know, firms that you know that I'm that I'm working with are trying to really understand what an integrated sales and marketing engine looks like and can it contribute to commercial growth?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so to your point, there's a lot of cultural challenges underneath that.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a lot of operating changes that firms have to make sure their sales and marketing teams are on the same page, et cetera.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I do see that as a really interesting and significant challenge, but also opportunity for the marketing leaders.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I and so much flows from I think the sort of CEO's belief around marketing and brand and the sort of CMO as a true partner round the table.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you see kind of in the businesses where that comes right from the top and cascades through the business, such greater ability to transform and to be able to be right alongside their sales colleagues to bring the twin engine of distribution to bear and to make the sort of joint decisions to make the changes in that client experience to be able to flow through AI and develop the insight to be able to kind of deliver a better experience.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't wanna know whether I mean we seen and saw in some of our research like this this shared focus by most people in the industry to have brand preference really come through as a kind of their biggest strategic priority.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that the relationship of kind of investment in brand coming really from the CEO and being a true connector through the business and how marketing really has to work and does work in and around the whole company to make sure that the kind of the brand equity is being built at every layer.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and I feel like that today that is more important than ever for the ways in which, you know, we've talked about this brand discoverability has changed and the way that we need to really work through those silos, have that kind of narrative governance, ensure that we're leveraging all of our internal ambassadors as well as the external to kind of really help drive that sort of machine equity that we've talked about alongside building brand equity with our clients as well.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's a great point because uh you're absolutely right.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: The brand building and differentiation now for these marketing leaders is becoming multidimensional.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: As you alluded to, there's now you know the human side, so you have to continue to build equity and preference, you know, through events and through client interactions.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you also now have to begin to build preference and and equity with the AI platforms as you know, uh preference and discoverability is becoming much bigger with these AI platforms.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, as a marketing leader, that's not easy, that's very challenging.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we've we've talked a lot about that at uh certainly at our recent CMO roundtable meeting is you know, how can firms manage their brand equity, if you will, and preference in these different dimensions?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, to your earlier point, making sure that you've got alignment from the CEO on down, and that what you're you and your teams are doing here in terms of managing the brand is ultimately going to contribute to commercial growth.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: So these are challenges, certainly that I these are new, these are challenges I hadn't seen call it three or four years ago, and now people are trying to get their arms around this, and it's it's not easy.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think the exciting thing is I feel like team skills and marketing toolkits are all gonna be rethought within that, you know.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think to really use every every tactic in the toolkit to be able to really think through that discoverability is is actually really exciting.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and to not feel confounded and and funneled down the kind of classic digital social channels only because we're demonstrating every dollar's delivering for us, instead to be much more expansive and to lift up the whole marketing team to have the skills to be to be thinking that through and building that equity, as you say.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I genuinely think there are gonna be winners and losers in this.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And those that are not taking a forward step across the their team and their skills and how they're thinking about these tactics, I think it's it's gonna really play out badly for those guys.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is, to your point about the toolkit.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways, the the toolkit has changed and it may have even gotten smaller a little bit.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: As as as AI is now becoming a bigger part of what firms are are are doing, how they're evaluating.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: They look at share of answer in a lot of these LLMs, and that's new.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you incorporate that into some of the attribution modeling you might do?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you're absolutely right.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a very exciting but almost terrifying time for a lot of the leaders.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the mindset of experimentation that I think that's that's that's gonna be interesting.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: And just to just to the toolkit point, like I I feel like we've talked, or I've certainly seen some of your thought leadership on marketers being educators.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder whether you could just expand on that a little bit, because I guess there have been so many academies and institutes that asset managers have built over time.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, it feels increasingly like, to your point around being a commercial revenue-generating part of the business, like there's more pressure on making those thought leadership uh initiatives to be very directly linked to product, to capability and positioning that.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I just wondered on your reflections on really joining that up and whether that's absolutely appropriate that it should be kind of commercially funneled, or or really we should be protecting those institutes to be genuine kind of thought leadership and educational parts of our role.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, one of the big topics now is value beyond product, right?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: So how can you educate without leading, you know, with product, which is not necessarily a new concept, but what is new is that the segments now are more defined around that.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, you know, you look in the private market space and private wealth space and the rise of alternatives, the educational component there is huge.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: In those markets, in the wealth channel, um, education is really a condition of distribution.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it becomes that much more important.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you need to build a huge academy or an institute like some of the private equity firms have?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps not, but you do have to create some value beyond products so that you can at least get into the conversation.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And what's also interesting, I think, on the education front, and what I've seen some firms do is really kind of a hybrid model where they're they're using the digital channels to scale, but then they're using a lot of their in-person events to actually drive behavior.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there's one firm that I've worked with where actually they're using behavioral finance and they're measuring, can these advisors get clients to move cash off the sidelines?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually measuring that through some of their behavioral finance.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's really not about the product.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's just changing behavior, and it's all educational or educationally driven, which I think is is is kind of hitting on kind of a new dimension for that topic.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess also just trying to think this through with AI search and those types of overviews where a lot of those journeys are being truncated.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe some of those academies or institutions or educational hubs that we're talking about, anything that can kind of be summarized essentially is living in those overviews as opposed to kind of creating an experience in in that hub.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it changes the kind of client journey as we've been thinking about it.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it kind of that that's on one side, but then on the other, we know we've got to create authorship and authenticity and author authority.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so these are gonna be the things, right, that are really gonna underpin that.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know, like kind of how do you think because I my concern I guess is that content strategies are gonna become quite distracted by the governance and being answer first and and and kind of thinking about how they're kind of cited and and surfaced, as opposed to really thinking about true thought leadership and maybe the co-authorship of some of those and partnerships for some of that to be able to really stand apart as opposed to kind of be, I guess, created or sort of surfaced in some kind of overview.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I think it's an interesting point because you know you look at education, you look at thought leadership, and you know, can they coexist, or is one becoming more dominant than the other?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're you're getting at that point.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I look at it as they've they really serve two different purposes.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: In my view, you know, education is really explaining how things work, and thought leadership is where you're taking a position on where something is going.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you look at those at those two, and and if you buy into that definition, they absolutely would have to co coexist.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also to your point, the authenticity, the authorship, it really matters because now certain educational content and thought leadership, it it can be essentially commoditized on AI.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so for firms that are really doing this well, at least firms that I've spoken to, what they're what they're doing is sure, they're they're utilizing AI to help generate some of the initial content and stuff.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: But really what makes it work for them is the human side and the behavior side and you know their ability to take a position on a certain topic and then you know rely on their client-facing teams to actually for the most part deliver that view.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got sort of education and thought leadership together here that I think is helping for firms that are really investing in this and and focused on this and are clear on what they want to be known for in their space.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is allowing them to, I think, have much more meaningful conversations with clients that isn't just grounded in product.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you've said the kind of the the sort of easy well, the key thing there in what you're saying is the kind of the the asset managers that know what they want to be known for.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I think that that can be the hardest thing, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: To kind of really bring that single-mindedness to the strategy, to kind of where we're gonna anchor ourselves.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, like we know that being really too general, too broad, is gonna be penalized in this in this world.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what's your reflections on that?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: On on kind of looking at our industry and how good we are at getting to that sort of single focus on what we want to be famous for, and then from there, that is going to inform our experiences we're gonna create for clients and the thought leadership that we're gonna go and have real kind of authorship around.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how how do we get better at that?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's a you know a good point because you know, as long as I've been in this in this industry, we've always talked about, oh, we've got to focus, we gotta focus, but it's really hard to do.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, on the point that what do you want to be known for, you know, it's interesting.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: There was a firm I was working with and and we actually did an interesting exercise.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: I had asked them to on on this point of the the two or three attributes that you are now banking your your brand work on and your communications and your proposition around, why don't you write down a sentence for each of these attributes that you would like to see show up in these AI models?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and so so they did that, and then we went and we looked, and it was interesting because what they were hoping, you know, they wanted to be known for to your point, was it was not even close to what was being surfaced in the AI platforms.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what does that mean?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it means you can be you can be clear on what you want to be known for, you can articulate it within the firm, but back to the earlier point, you know, how can you manage this from both a machine and a human side, you know, as you talked about.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And are there are there people within your teams that can do that?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have compliance on board, et cetera?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this is something that three or four years ago, I'm not even sure firms or any of the marketing folks were thinking about this.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's become a challenge in addition to just trying to focus.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess my next question was going to be what do you think the success success measures are for marketing and financial services?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just thinking maybe for that client, it was actually consistently showing up across the different LLMs with that consistent messaging.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because as we know, they're all indexing and pulling from different sources.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so the active management that's required to ensure that all those different platforms are telling a single story for you is is a job in and of itself, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of determine some of those sort of tactics and focus areas.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, like what do you think when it comes to success measures for marketing now, and I guess some of the metrics themselves are changing?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's a few, you know, success measures I think you know the firms are now starting to align around.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: One is, you know, commercial outcomes first, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So looking at pipeline and flows or new clients, diverse, you know, diversification.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Second is, you know, are you contributing to sales effectiveness?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, is content actually be being used by your sales teams?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it helping in conversion and in lead generation?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Brand health clearly is another metric, uh, but now it's as we talked about with both equities, whether it's human or the machine side, and whether or not you're gaining preference measures.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Behavior change, I touched on, is another where whether it's through education or other means, are you able to affect uh behavioral change that's ultimately leading to better commercial growth?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, finally, I would just say that marketing today is really starting to be measured the way the business is being measured, which is by growth, not necessarily by activity.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So those are a few that I'm seeing firms trying to really align around.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess with that sort of change of measures comes, you know, a change of career for some, right?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you you've obviously had a very successful 35-year career in this industry.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think are the kind of critical characteristics for for those make career now or even coming into this industry?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: What are the sort of attributes they need to have to have that kind of successful long-term career?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the first thing is stay curious because and I say that because at least it's certainly in my time, you know, we've had the the evolution of digital, and then it was data, now it's AI.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Staying curious and really learning what's going on instead of just waiting it out or viewing it as a fad, if you will.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So really trying to understand some of these evolutionary trends.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: The second is think commercially, as I talked about, really understand: does your firm make money?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: How do you work better with sales, and try to create a, you know, try to create a relationship there that enables you, as I said, to partner with the business and be more of a commercial growth engine.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Third, I'd say build teams and develop people.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy, but you know, when I arrived at MFS, it was a decent-sized marketing team, but we had to invest and build that team out.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: We had to develop people and develop new skills and talents.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think as a marketing leader, you really have to be committed to that and really focused on that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'd invest in relationships, make sure you've got relationships both within the firm and across the industry because, from a career perspective, there's a lot that happens outside of your firm that you may not fully realize unless you have relationships with folks and you're hearing different perspectives.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally, I would say have a point of view on things and try to keep yourself and your teams focused.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same advice, you know, we just talked about as it relates to brand, but I think in terms of you know career growth, make sure you have a point of view and that you're really focused on what the task is and you're leading your teams appropriately.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So those are some, I guess, lessons over a long career.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Andy, for sharing your point of view and uh and also for our relationship over 10 years plus now.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been wonderful to talk to you today.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully we can make you a sort of regular guest on this because with all of your connections across the industry, I think it's fab fabulous to hear your points of view, as I say, and and those connection points across the industry.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you very much indeed.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Twink.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed it.