Latest / The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson / How Good Humans Sell with Catherine Brown

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How Good Humans Sell with Catherine Brown · The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson

• 0:00
  If a product or service actually delivers a transformation of some kind, it doesn't matter
• 0:04
  what it is.
• 0:05
  It could be a Starbucks copy.
• 0:06
  It's like I am all of a sudden transported.
• 0:08
  Back to vacation because when I go on vacation, I drink this drink, right, whatever whatever it
• 0:12
  is.
• 0:13
  Transformation is really what people buy.
• 0:15
  So getting all those beliefs in is one line of training.
• 0:19
  Then the other line of training is how do I bring people in?
• 0:24
  What is the combination of marketing?
• 0:26
  What do I ask them when we first have our sales call?
• 0:29
  That's the part people typically think about as sales training.
• 0:33
  Case I'm making is that you need both.
• 0:35
  You actually need an inventory of your beliefs.
• 0:37
  You wanna build on a strong foundation.
• 0:39
  The good news is you can continually improve your beliefs and learn the tactics of how to
• 0:45
  sell.
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  You need both.
• 0:47
  3,
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  2, 1, 0, ignition I left off.
• 0:55
  Ending small business failure.
• 0:58
  Welcome to the small biz chat podcast.
• 1:00
  With the number one small business expert, Melinda Emerson.
• 1:05
  Melinda's goal is to end small business failure.
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  And she'll give you the information you need to succeed and live the life you dream of.
• 1:13
  Now here's your host, the small Biz chat lady herself, Melinda Emerson,
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  Hi, everyone.
• 1:20
  I'm Melinda Emerson, the small biz lady, America's number one small business expert.
• 1:25
  And I'm so excited to welcome you to another edition of the small beach tab podcast.
• 1:31
  We're gonna talk about if selling makes you feel uncomfortable.
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  I have an expert here who's gonna break down how to make it feel like you're helping and not
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  selling.
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  And if sales overwhelms you, you're in the right place.
• 1:45
  We have an author who's gonna break down how humans sell Here at the small biz chat podcast,
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  our mission is to end small business failure.
• 1:56
  This is a peer to peer mentoring show where we give you advice from multiple angles.
• 2:02
  We want you to take your business to the next level, and that is why we do what we do.
• 2:08
  The small biz chat podcast can be seen on my small biz lady fan page and on my small biz
• 2:14
  YouTube channel Now listen, if you like what you see today, feel free to subscribe.
• 2:20
  You wanna make sure that you do not miss another episode.
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  And I am so excited to have our next guest.
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  You know, people, small business owners biggest fear is selling, but we have an expert here
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  today who's gonna help all of us learn how to feel better about sales.
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  Think about it like helping.
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  So with that, I wanna introduce my next guest, Catherine Brown.
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  She's a veteran 25 years B2B selling, and she launched her 1st sales consulting firm in 2003.
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  She now runs a sales training firm called Extrabold Sales, where she coaches others to
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  sell with confidence.
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  Her sales system includes psychological research that gets to the heart of why people
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  don't sell effectively in her new book, how good humans sell the proven path of B2B sales
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  success She compliance the best sales practices with social psychology principles, and her
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  training can be used in combination with other sales training programs to help sales
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  professionals overcome that hesitation.
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  They keep some from closing more business.
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  For more information, you can go to how good humans sell dotcom.
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  Catherine, welcome to the small business chat podcast.
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  Thank you so much.
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  I love to sell.
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  I love to help other people enjoy it more, and I'm really glad to be asked.
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  Thanks.
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  Awesome.
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  So let's just jump into it.
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  So selling is the lifeblood of any successful business, yet it's people's biggest challenge.
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  Why is that?
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  Yeah.
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  So I think, unfortunately, we will we always will have what I call bad actors with us Right?
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  So you know, we'll there are people who are manipulative in the way they sell or that have
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  somehow made you think that the definition of selling is always persuasion, and they think I
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  don't wanna be like that.
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  So, I just detect this theory, whether this was the case, I actually did a whole bunch of
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  research prior to launching the book.
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  And what I showed is that business owners as well, I mean, it's just So it's so sad, Linda,
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  but the it's also their employees that they hire all demonstrate that they hold some
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  reluctance and concern about being perceived as too pushy.
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  So it's really a universal problem, both for the employees and their employer.
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  So how do people get a reputation for being or, like, like, if they feel like sales is sleazy,
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  How can they get over that and do what they gotta do to sell for their business?
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  Yes.
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  So one of the first things we do is I always talk about all my talks and all my training, we
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  talk first about noticing your beliefs.
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  So I really love the word notice.
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  Okay.
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  N o t I c e.
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  I love the word notice because it tells me that I wanna pay attention, but it is not a judging
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  voice.
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  You know, many of us that are high performers have, you know, a real internal driver that has
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  a strong should.
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  You should have done this.
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  You should have done this.
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  You know, that that that is not helpful kind of talk.
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  So when you notice that you feel anxious or you notice that you're holding back because it's
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  time to follow-up, but you feel anxious The first thing to do is literally to slow things
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  down and take stock of what you're observing.
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  Because what happens is people have this feeling, then that's how they interpret.
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  Let's say my mouth is a little bit dry or my palms get a little sweaty, well, because I
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  already think sales is bad, I'm automatically going to interpret those physiological symptoms
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  negatively, and then I'm gonna run away from whatever it is I'm supposed to do.
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  And the problem is that this happens in 3 seconds.
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  So by pretending you're in a movie, right, I'm going to slow things down and walk yourself
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  through.
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  I 100% believe and have observed that people can change the trajectory of their selling and
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  the way they think about it by first taking stock and asking themselves and so what I'm
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  believing in this moment true.
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  Right?
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  I'm afraid this person is gonna be mean to me.
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  I'm afraid they're gonna think that I'm bothering them if I call them.
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  But how many times has that actually been the case, right, to really take stunning takes a
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  little bit of observation and slowing down to begin with.
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  So how do people I mean, with sales is so important, especially to new business owners,
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  Like, how do you go learn sales skills?
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  Yeah.
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  Different question.
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  Came out of a corporate sales job, You don't know how to say it.
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  No.
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  You don't.
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  You don't.
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  And most people most people, of course, you you heard in the subtitle of the book.
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  Most of the people I work with sell a product or service B2B.
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  All that means is you're selling something to another business.
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  So it could be anything.
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  Right?
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  It could be marketing services.
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  You could be You'd be a CPA.
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  It can be a lawyer.
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  You can actually have a software product.
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  You can make you can make a physical product.
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  You can make an office product.
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  If a business is buying it, that's what B2B means.
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  Most people who start businesses have a skill set in a service or invented a product, but
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  nobody expected to have to sell.
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  And so, especially when people raise money, one of the first things they wanna do is they wanna
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  go use it to hire someone, because they just wanna get out of the job as fast as they can.
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  I mean, this is this is just a very common problem.
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  So I think it helps.
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  My my first answer to you would be if you know your week in sales, Think of sales in 2
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  buckets.
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  1 is to think about, literally, the foundations of my beliefs.
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  Do I believe I deserve to have a successful business?
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  Do I believe that what I'm offering is really making a difference to people?
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  Do I really believe in what I'm selling?
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  Do I see sort of the grander purpose of what it offers?
• 8:13
  We always think if a product or service actually delivers a transformation of some
• 8:17
  kind, It doesn't matter what it is.
• 8:18
  It could be a Starbucks copies.
• 8:20
  Like, I am all of a sudden transported back to vacation because when I go on vacation, I drink
• 8:24
  this drink, right, whatever whatever it is.
• 8:26
  Transformation is really what people buy.
• 8:29
  So getting all those beliefs in check is one line of training.
• 8:33
  Then the other line of training is How do I bring people in?
• 8:37
  What is the combination of marketing?
• 8:39
  What do I ask them when we first have our sales call?
• 8:42
  That the part people typically think about as sales training?
• 8:46
  The case I'm making is that you need both.
• 8:48
  You actually need inventory of your beliefs.
• 8:50
  You wanna build on a strong foundation The good news is you can continually improve your
• 8:55
  beliefs and learn the tactics of how to sell.
• 8:59
  You need both.
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  So
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  When you think about this, okay.
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  So you're saying I need my emotional EQ stuff tweaks.
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  That's right.
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  Then and then I gotta go to somebody like Paul Getter and understand how to build this landing
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  page, how to build these funnels, and all that kind of stuff.
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  Right.
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  So what I what I wanna understand though is, like, if if sales happens in stages because we
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  know there are different pieces of the funnel, right?
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  There's brand awareness, then there's consideration, then there's the purchase, then
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  there's, you know, retention, and then advocacy then how do you do you have to learn each
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  piece, or is it Well,
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  yeah, you do.
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  Yeah.
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  You do if you're B2B.
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  You do because someone has to initiate with this is the process, right, in different words
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  from what you said.
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  Someone has to initiate with someone else.
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  So it's either what I call a handraiser someone who has received your marketing or has clicked
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  on your address downloaded something from your website and wants to have a conversation with
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  you.
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  Or you see them and you think This is the niche I work with, and I would love to work with that
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  person.
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  And you actually send a sales email and you invite them to a conversation.
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  It doesn't matter whomever initiates with someone else that's always the 1st stage.
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  We have a conversation.
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  There's some key things I need to know to know what that I can actually win the work, and then
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  I can help you.
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  And then we invite them to buy.
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  Right?
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  We say, would you like to do X next and there's some kind of call to action?
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  One of the things I talk about and how good humans sell is that it doesn't matter what you
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  sell.
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  There's some key things you always need to ask.
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  So somehow, it doesn't have to all be in the first conversation.
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  It could be that Some of the information is on a form they fill out on your website.
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  It could be that some of the information comes over email, or you learn this part in this
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  conversation with the first time I talked to the company in time, I talked to that same
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  person and their partner, and then I learned the rest of the information.
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  It doesn't matter, but what I would want your listeners to understand is if you sell
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  something pretty complicated, and I'd say complicated is, you know, something that's a,
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  5, 6, 7 figure item.
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  You you do not want to send a proposal, and you do not want to send a draft contract.
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  And so you are searching your talking to the buyer, Right?
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  Because that that's easy to actually misunderstand.
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  You understand what else they've tried and why they're looking You have actually told them
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  what this is going to cost.
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  Like a lot of people who feel anxious talking about money will throw a proposal over the
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  fence and try to get the proposal sell for them instead of vetting people on price early, which
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  I think that's a real disservice.
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  That's kind of a a chicken way to go about it.
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  What happens is it really lowers your close rate because people are surprised.
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  They're disappointed and surprised because you didn't bring it up earlier.
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  So these things that I call the magic topics, They're all knowable things.
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  They're all things you can ask about in the natural conversation, and they're all
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  learnable.
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  I love it.
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  I love it.
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  Alright.
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  So what do you think is, you know, I hear all of that.
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  And all of that, what you said, I think, was gold.
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  Like, like, what you just told people, I'm like, girl, and somebody had told me about this
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  up early on.
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  I learned it all the hard way, but what too.
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  That's why I read the book.
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  But what kinds of tools do people have to have in place to get this information or terms,
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  prepare the proposals, or, you know, to even go back and forth and and try to have multiple
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  sales conversations.
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  Like, what kinds of tools do they need to have?
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  That's a great question.
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  Yeah.
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  That's a really great question.
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  I haven't asked I haven't even asked that before.
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  I'm gonna name 2 that come to mind, and that's not in any way to dismissed anything Paul said
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  earlier, like, I think, if you, you know, if you wanna market and sell today, you have to
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  figure out what you're doing online.
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  So most of my clients or on my or on LinkedIn and then some on Facebook and some Instagram,
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  but they're they're using LinkedIn very heavily for in the in the industries we're in.
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  So they're gonna have a profile and and and should treat their profile really basically
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  like a website.
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  Your about section needs to read like your website so that person who comes and reads
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  about you knows how you can help.
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  Right?
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  It's not your resume.
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  Nobody wants to read your resume.
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  Plus that's what the second half of the LinkedIn profile is.
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  The top part is really you sharing how you help.
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  So so yes of yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes to all that.
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  The two things I would say a person also needs are you actually need a way to track who you're
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  talking to.
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  So there are a a zillion CRMs out there.
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  And everybody's got an opinion, and some are integrated with your email marketing, and some
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  aren't, and there's pros and cons to all these different things.
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  I don't care if you start on a spreadsheet, which lots of people do when they're a startup.
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  You actually need to track who you're talking to, what you told them last, and what you said
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  he would do next.
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  And so a customer relationship management database, a CRM of some kind, many are free.
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  To start out with or many.
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  I just upgraded from what I was using that was free forever, and now it's 30 a month.
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  I mean, it just does not have to be a lot of money for it.
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  Small business owner, but you really do need to track who you're talking to so that you can use
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  that data for marketing and have those email lists all in the same place and things like
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  that.
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  The second thing that I'm gonna say might be a surprise to some of your listeners.
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  You really need multiple versions of your value proposition.
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  When I say your value proposition, what I mean is a 2 to 3 sentence construction that you
• 14:27
  write where the first sentence always lists either the challenge that your ideal client is
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  experiencing or an outcome they wanna have.
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  So the first sentence can say something like, for example, for my sales training for a long
• 14:43
  time, my website used to say Business owners are frustrated when their sales teams don't
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  perform well and they don't know why.
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  Extrable sales has a cell system, to help your team have their best year ever.
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  Okay.
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  That's all I said.
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  It was 2 sentences.
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  Who was my buyer?
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  Business owner?
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  What was their problem?
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  Sales team was not performing.
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  Do do we know why?
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  Nope.
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  Don't know why.
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  Need someone to tell me.
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  Okay.
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  So everyone can do something like that where the first sentence is about who you help.
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  2nd sentence is how you help.
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  This is called the value proposition.
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  You don't have just one.
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  Like, you probably have 50 in in in the things you do because you can have one for different
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  products.
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  You can have one for different audiences, and there's no wrong answer.
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  But if you write this, if you take the time to think through this, you can use this for
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  social.
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  This will inform your ads, the ads that people click on.
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  This is your about section on your LinkedIn.
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  This is your Facebook post that you use different variations over and over to get
• 15:48
  engagement.
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  Why does it work?
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  Because the first sentence is about a person who is the reader, right?
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  They're drawn into a story because they go, ah, that's my problem.
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  So a value proposition combined with the way to track who you're talking to, that will get you
• 16:07
  a long way.
• 16:09
  And by the way, those are gonna be pretty low tech things that I think the barrier to entry
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  pretty low.
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  I love it.
• 16:15
  I love it.
• 16:15
  Catherine, you just dropped like a mega mega pearl out here because I honestly didn't think
• 16:22
  about that.
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  My sell.
• 16:24
  Alright, Catherine.
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  I wanna jump back into this.
• 16:27
  Tell me about when is it the right time to bring in a salesperson to help you with your
• 16:35
  sales and your business.
• 16:36
  Yes.
• 16:37
  Because I shared earlier that I think people do this too soon.
• 16:40
  So Let me tell you why you don't wanna do it too soon, and I will answer your question.
• 16:45
  You don't want to hire someone in many cases as soon as you're emotions tell you you want to
• 16:51
  because if you are really truly just getting started in your small business, if you're very
• 16:55
  early, there's things that you basically have to pay to learn.
• 16:59
  No matter.
• 17:00
  And I loved your book, and I read every word of it.
• 17:03
  And I think the outline of the steps were so great in, you know, how to become your own boss
• 17:07
  in 12 months.
• 17:08
  And I appreciate that you shared.
• 17:10
  You're gonna do all these things, and you're gonna have to keep tweaking them because you're
• 17:13
  not gonna get everything right the first time.
• 17:15
  It's not gonna be perfect.
• 17:16
  Every business pivots.
• 17:18
  In its message, its audience who you go to, what what the product needs, etcetera.
• 17:22
  So the problem is if you hire too early, You end up blaming the salesperson and you don't
• 17:27
  actually know what the problem was.
• 17:28
  And I see this all the time all the time in business to business.
• 17:33
  Let's say it's a software startup of some kind.
• 17:35
  People say, you know what?
• 17:36
  I'm gonna hire this person, and they said they'd work for a 100% commission only, and
• 17:40
  they have all the connections in the area.
• 17:42
  So there's not much risk to me.
• 17:43
  They're gonna take these accounts and they're gonna go sell for me.
• 17:46
  Well, the problem is you're still not completely sure of exactly who you're serving.
• 17:50
  You think you know, but you're still testing it out because it's really early and you only 3
• 17:53
  clients or even 13 clients.
• 17:55
  You're just getting started.
• 17:57
  And so you don't know if it's the messaging that's a problem.
• 18:00
  You don't know if the person doesn't have a good work ethic.
• 18:03
  You don't know if people actually you have, you know, a customer service or delivery issue yet.
• 18:09
  It's just so early that you don't know if they struggle, you don't know why.
• 18:15
  And if you will learn to feel comfortable enough to be the seller for a period time.
• 18:21
  I would say a sign that you're ready to hire is that you can articulate.
• 18:26
  I really do know the niche that we're serving I understand why they're buying from me.
• 18:31
  I can prove that I've tested this, and I also have a sense of that sales process you asked me
• 18:36
  about earlier.
• 18:36
  So now when someone comes in, I can coach them and say, so here's what I found.
• 18:41
  We tend to have to talk to this many people to get this many to watch a demo.
• 18:45
  And this many who watch a demo, this many convert.
• 18:48
  Those things are all knowable with practice.
• 18:51
  So in So
• 18:52
  are you saying so are you saying, like, 18 to 24 months you should sell yourself?
• 18:59
  Well, certainly at least a year.
• 19:00
  Right?
• 19:00
  I mean, the thing is time flies so fast.
• 19:03
  You know, a person may refer to themselves as a startup for year 1 to 3 because there's still
• 19:08
  things they're figuring out.
• 19:10
  So I certainly wouldn't do it in the 1st year maybe 18 to 24 months depending on really what
• 19:16
  kind of head start you had and how much certainty you had.
• 19:19
  I will tell you, I have had my current sales training business for years.
• 19:23
  I had another kind of firm before that.
• 19:25
  And I started out serving entrepreneurs that I did a bunch of bigger corporate teams, and I
• 19:30
  had come full circle and I'm back around more to burners again.
• 19:33
  And I, like, I teach this stuff.
• 19:36
  Okay.
• 19:36
  And in 6 years, like, it's changed.
• 19:38
  It's evolved some And so I think you need at least a little bit of time to have some
• 19:44
  certainty unless you just wanna flush your money down the toilet.
• 19:46
  I mean, you're welcome to hire somebody, but we're trying to be shrewd in our hiring and be
• 19:51
  careful.
• 19:51
  So I think there's a certain amount of confidence you need to have in that value
• 19:55
  proposition in a clarified sales process, and then you can make that higher.
• 20:00
  So what kind of structure for your sales process do you need to have internally before
• 20:05
  you hire a sales person?
• 20:06
  Cause I think sometimes people will hire a salesperson, and they really don't even
• 20:11
  understand what they need to do to support that person or what kinds of things they need to
• 20:16
  have in place.
• 20:16
  Materials, technology, whatever.
• 20:18
  You know what I mean?
• 20:19
  So Exactly.
• 20:20
  Exactly.
• 20:20
  I mean, most people need you need something to share.
• 20:23
  You need an asset to share in addition to the website.
• 20:25
  So How can I share content that shows our thought leadership in a certain area?
• 20:29
  It might be there's a case study.
• 20:30
  It might be that you have a checklist or a quiz or something you develop that's actually like
• 20:35
  how to know x and x time.
• 20:36
  Right?
• 20:37
  What's the problem you solve and how can that be turned into something that is shareable?
• 20:41
  So there's, like, sort of basic assets that I think are good to have.
• 20:45
  How have you documented your own work so you know the process, then you can see what they're
• 20:51
  doing.
• 20:51
  So now every CRM is in the cloud.
• 20:53
  The person just didn't share the same physical proximity as you, but you need to have the
• 20:58
  thing set up so you can actually see if people are working.
• 21:00
  And I don't mean that in a big brother way, but If you have done the work of figuring out your
• 21:04
  process, then you will know, you know what?
• 21:07
  Here's the thing.
• 21:07
  I already did the work, so I know that, actually, It's very reasonable for someone to
• 21:11
  call thirty people in a day.
• 21:13
  I know it because I did it.
• 21:15
  Right.
• 21:15
  So if someone tells you that just can't be done, well, that's just not true because you
• 21:19
  did it so you know.
• 21:20
  You don't have to do it forever, but you need to do things enough that you can have
• 21:24
  confidence that To be awesome, think about fairness to the person.
• 21:28
  You're bringing a person in, and if you can't set their expectations about this generally how
• 21:33
  long the sales process has been up until now.
• 21:35
  And here are the key steps.
• 21:37
  If you can't map out that stuff for someone, what are they stepping into?
• 21:41
  A mess, a mess.
• 21:43
  I don't know.
• 21:43
  It's just not fair.
• 21:44
  Right?
• 21:45
  It's just not fair because there's unless you say, hey.
• 21:47
  Come ugly early with me.
• 21:48
  I don't know anything.
• 21:49
  I'll just pay you anyway.
• 21:50
  If a person's in a position to do that, that's fine, really.
• 21:53
  I mean, that's fine.
• 21:54
  But most of us were bootstrapping, and we wanna figure this stuff out as fast as we can and
• 21:58
  then turn around and use the profits toward hiring people.
• 22:01
  That's how many services firms do it.
• 22:03
  So, you know, we're very we're trying to be very shrewd about the money.
• 22:07
  Definitely.
• 22:07
  Definitely.
• 22:08
  No one no one.
• 22:09
  No small business can throw away money.
• 22:11
  That's for sure.
• 22:12
  Now last question, Catherine, what is the best business advice you've ever been given?
• 22:18
  Yes.
• 22:18
  So I'm actually gonna piggyback on something Paul said earlier.
• 22:21
  And when he said it, I thought, oh, I'm gonna sound like a copier, but I promise I have
• 22:24
  thought about this before.
• 22:25
  So our theme is this idea of something being enough, right, not waiting until you have
• 22:30
  something perfect.
• 22:31
  So my expression I say all the time in my business.
• 22:35
  I taught it to my grown kids now is that perfect is the enemy of good.
• 22:40
  An expression, actually, many people will say perfect is the enemy of good enough, and that's
• 22:44
  not actually how the quote goes.
• 22:45
  It's perfect is the enemy of good.
• 22:47
  Because truly what I can offer can be good, and it can make a real difference for someone, and
• 22:52
  it does not have to be perfect.
• 22:56
  People who take risks will fail, but people who have huge winds were people who took risks.
• 23:04
  It's like it's like a logic equation.
• 23:06
  You really can't have one without the other.
• 23:08
  And so getting comfortable with that has been a really big part of that for me.
• 23:14
  Love it.
• 23:14
  Love it.
• 23:15
  Love it.
• 23:15
  Thank you so much, Catherine.
• 23:17
  Your book, how good humans sell.
• 23:20
  I really enjoyed it.
• 23:21
  And so that's why I was so excited to finally have our schedules sync up so I can get you on
• 23:27
  the show because it's absolutely a great book.
• 23:30
  Thank you so much to sales expert, Catherine Brown.
• 23:34
  Go grab her book.
• 23:35
  How good humans sell.
• 23:37
  If you are interested in learning about kind of boss you might be, I want you to head over to
• 23:42
  boss quiz.com and get your complete business profile so that you can figure out the right
• 23:48
  business opportunity for you.
• 23:50
  Thank you all for joining me for another edition of the small biz chat podcast.
• 23:54
  You know our mission here is to end a small business failure.
• 23:59
  I'm Melinda Emerson, a small business lady, and I wanna leave you with this.
• 24:02
  You never lose in business.
• 24:04
  Either you win or you learn.
• 24:06
  God bless everybody.
• 24:08
  Thanks for listening to the small biz chat podcast with Melinda Emerson.
• 24:13
  Subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and join us next Wednesday for more
• 24:18
  fantastic information and interviews.
• 24:21
  You can find more sources and small business success strategies by visiting Melinda's
• 24:26
  website succeed as your own boss.com.
• 24:29
  Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next week.