Latest / The You Project / #2050 Hard Conversations & Feedback - Bobby Cappuccio

Transcript

#2050 Hard Conversations & Feedback - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: Good to him. I hope you're Tori. If you're welcome
0:02
Speaker 1: another installment of the show. It's jumbo. It taps wherever
0:05
Speaker 1: you are, whatever you're doing, we hope you are okay,
0:09
Speaker 1: somewhere between okay and fantastic. Let's let's set the bar
0:12
Speaker 1: low so we're not putting too much pressure on you.
0:14
Speaker 1: Okay would be fine, Fantastic would be awesome. But also
0:19
Speaker 1: some of you are going to be shit, and that's
0:21
Speaker 1: okay too. You know why it's okay because being shit
0:23
Speaker 1: is part of the human experience. Doesn't mean you're broken
0:25
Speaker 1: or weird or bad. It means you're just a human
0:29
Speaker 1: having a day. Bobby has shit days, Bobby has good days.
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Speaker 1: Bobby has amazing days because Bobby, like you and me,
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Speaker 1: is a weirdo and also one hundred human. What's your
0:41
Speaker 1: day today? Mate? Is it? Where is it on the
0:43
Speaker 1: scale between shit and amazing? If shit is one and
0:46
Speaker 1: amazing as ten, what's your number being today?
0:50
Speaker 2: I feel like it's a solid five? Actually, okay?
0:53
Speaker 1: What made it a five? What would have made it
0:55
Speaker 1: an eight?
0:57
Speaker 2: H good questions both. I think I was doing a
1:01
Speaker 2: lot of reflection on a seminar that they gave last night,
1:04
Speaker 2: and I was like, okay, so let's review this, Let's
1:07
Speaker 2: see what happened, what went well, what could have been
1:10
Speaker 2: a lot better? There's a lot in the a lot
1:13
Speaker 2: better category. So I think I've been going over that
1:16
Speaker 2: in my mind consistently. I taught today out of school
1:22
Speaker 2: that that went well, had fun. I was able to
1:25
Speaker 2: pick up my new pair of glasses, So yeah, those
1:27
Speaker 2: things are going well. It's just a matter of just
1:30
Speaker 2: you knowing. Nothing markedly spectacular happened today. Nothing tragic happened today,
1:35
Speaker 2: and overall it was it was productive, but nothing unusually exciting.
1:42
Speaker 1: What's the space between self evaluation? Because I feel like
1:46
Speaker 1: self evaluation is can be a good thing, because I
1:50
Speaker 1: guess self evaluation, self awareness a first cousins and the
1:55
Speaker 1: horrible cousin we don't want is fucking self loathing. But
1:58
Speaker 1: what's the what's the space between self awareness, self evaluation,
2:03
Speaker 1: self efficacy, and then I'm an idiot, I fucking hate myself.
2:09
Speaker 1: I did a terrible job. I'm no good at this.
2:10
Speaker 1: They hate me. How do you kind of play in
2:14
Speaker 1: those places like what's your how do you how do
2:17
Speaker 1: you objectively or as objectively as you can assess your
2:21
Speaker 1: own performance.
2:24
Speaker 2: I think time is one thing when you do it.
2:28
Speaker 2: I try to avoid doing that right after you give
2:31
Speaker 2: a talk or right after you perform, because, first of all,
2:34
Speaker 2: you're too proximal to it. You haven't had enough distance.
2:38
Speaker 2: It's kind of like if you're hiking, when you get
2:41
Speaker 2: a little bit of a distance from the landscape, you
2:43
Speaker 2: can see it more clearly. You know, if you if
2:45
Speaker 2: you're sitting there staring at the forest when you're in it,
2:48
Speaker 2: you're probably not going to see it from the same
2:50
Speaker 2: vantage point. So a little bit of distancing helps, and
2:53
Speaker 2: it also allows you to be a little bit less
2:55
Speaker 2: emotionally attached. And when you're going through things, what's your
3:00
Speaker 2: level of emotion? And I think when you have a
3:03
Speaker 2: high level of emotional provocation, you're probably not looking at
3:08
Speaker 2: things through a lens of objectivity. And also, you know
3:13
Speaker 2: we've discussed this in past episodes, how balanced is your feedback?
3:18
Speaker 2: If it's like I am amazing, I am the best
3:21
Speaker 2: presenter that these people have ever seen, most likely you're not.
3:25
Speaker 2: If I'm the worst presenter these people have ever seen,
3:29
Speaker 2: most likely you're not. That's a story in your own head.
3:32
Speaker 2: I don't think that reflects the audience's experience, and then
3:36
Speaker 2: it's balancing. So there there's reflection and then there's review.
3:40
Speaker 2: So reflection is what is my interpretation of what really
3:45
Speaker 2: went well and what could be better? What's my interpretation
3:49
Speaker 2: of past performance that was good versus current performance? Where
3:54
Speaker 2: were the gaps? Review is when you pull out the
3:57
Speaker 2: surveys and you read the audience's feedback reviewers. When you
4:01
Speaker 2: have peers and colleagues, you could say, okay, these are
4:06
Speaker 2: the three questions I asked myself. Let me present these
4:08
Speaker 2: questions to you. Give me your version. So how aligned
4:13
Speaker 2: is your reflection with the review that you're getting from
4:16
Speaker 2: your audience as well as from your peers. So if
4:19
Speaker 2: it's completely different, something might be off.
4:23
Speaker 1: So let's extrapolate. Remember most of our listeners are not speakers, right,
4:27
Speaker 1: so let's but it's I love that insight, but let's
4:30
Speaker 1: try and extrapolate this idea of self awareness, self reflection
4:36
Speaker 1: and out of that doing better, thinking better, performing better
4:40
Speaker 1: for people who don't have any external feedback like you
4:44
Speaker 1: and I listeners. You may or may not know this,
4:47
Speaker 1: but quite often, very often there's literally individual feedback from
4:53
Speaker 1: participants or audience members, and you get sent that or
4:57
Speaker 1: you get a kind of a collective review by who whoever,
5:00
Speaker 1: whoever organized you to go and talk. So there's that,
5:04
Speaker 1: and that gives you a level of perspective and objectivity
5:06
Speaker 1: that you can't have because you're you. But for those
5:10
Speaker 1: of us who are on the I want to do
5:12
Speaker 1: better and think better and create better outcomes journey, how
5:16
Speaker 1: do they use this kind of self awareness and self
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Speaker 1: reflection and self regulation when they don't have that feedback
5:24
Speaker 1: from others? How do we lean into this? Do we
5:29
Speaker 1: create our own criteria or objective targets or something so like,
5:34
Speaker 1: I know I'm going to do X, y Z today
5:36
Speaker 1: and if I don't, well, that's just a clear outcome
5:39
Speaker 1: based on a clear goal. Like how do we do
5:42
Speaker 1: this for people who aren't you and me?
5:45
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's a little bit more objective.
5:47
Speaker 2: I'm going to lean into the analogies around communication because
5:50
Speaker 2: you may not stand on the stage speaking of public
5:52
Speaker 2: but I think one of the most powerful influences in
5:56
Speaker 2: the quality and trajectory of your life is communication. And
5:59
Speaker 2: we are all communication specialists. I mean, even if you're unemployed,
6:03
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what you do for you could be
6:05
Speaker 2: between jobs, if you speak to anyone, you've got mates,
6:08
Speaker 2: you've got family members, communication is absolutely critical. And you
6:12
Speaker 2: know you're right. I'm just having this conversation today with
6:17
Speaker 2: one of my clients around. We don't get we don't
6:20
Speaker 2: get feedback. A lot of times you could go throughout
6:23
Speaker 2: your entire life and have something about the way you
6:27
Speaker 2: communicate being detrimental. Yeah, And people a lot of times
6:31
Speaker 2: will not tell you, like they'll just disappear, or they
6:34
Speaker 2: may not you know, they may not come around as much,
6:38
Speaker 2: but they never tell you, Hey, this is this is
6:41
Speaker 2: the impact that you're having on me through our communication.
6:45
Speaker 2: So a lot of times we don't know. So how
6:47
Speaker 2: do you source that out being the only lens that
6:52
Speaker 2: you're looking through? And I think it comes down to reflection,
6:57
Speaker 2: not just reflection on Okay, I just had a conversation
7:00
Speaker 2: with Craig. How did that go? Like what was my
7:03
Speaker 2: intention in that conversation? And like, what's my assessment of
7:07
Speaker 2: how well I met that intention? And where's the evidence
7:10
Speaker 2: for that? But I'm talking about reflections that you're offering.
7:14
Speaker 2: So if you're in a conversation, are you able to capture, reflect,
7:20
Speaker 2: and encapsulate the essence of what somebody's saying, and a
7:24
Speaker 2: lot of times when you do that effectively, you'll either
7:27
Speaker 2: get an affirmative well yeah, or sometimes the person will
7:32
Speaker 2: be shocked. It's almost it's almost the emotion of surprise,
7:36
Speaker 2: like yeah, oh, yes, yes, that's what I mean, Yes,
7:42
Speaker 2: that's what I'm saying, And it's just they've probably had
7:46
Speaker 2: this conversation with multiple people or expressed whatever they're expressing,
7:50
Speaker 2: but the way you held a mirror up to it
7:52
Speaker 2: allowed them to see a reflection of what they were
7:54
Speaker 2: saying with greater clarity, or maybe you tilted that mirror
7:59
Speaker 2: in the world that you utilized and they were able
8:02
Speaker 2: to see something from a different vantage point. It's the
8:04
Speaker 2: same thing they've been looking at, but you tilt that
8:06
Speaker 2: mirror and it looks very different, and all of a sudden,
8:09
Speaker 2: it's like they've made a breakthrough on their own idea
8:13
Speaker 2: that they're communicating. If you're doing something like that in
8:16
Speaker 2: the conversation, that's a fairly good metric that you're in
8:22
Speaker 2: resonance with this person, that you're effectively able to listen
8:26
Speaker 2: to that individual and be able to give them something
8:31
Speaker 2: that expands their understanding conceptually about what they're trying to express,
8:38
Speaker 2: especially if it moves the conversation forward in a way
8:42
Speaker 2: with like yeah, oh and they just got an idea
8:46
Speaker 2: or they just got a tag on that point that
8:50
Speaker 2: they never would have had if you didn't offer that reflection.
8:53
Speaker 2: I think those are some good metrics.
8:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love all of that. Okay, So I'm
8:57
Speaker 1: going to apply the Devil's advocate a little bit here,
8:59
Speaker 1: because I mean, there have been many times in my
9:05
Speaker 1: life as a boss, as a lecturer, as a presenter,
9:09
Speaker 1: as a coach, as a mentor, as you know, a
9:13
Speaker 1: corporate speaker, as whatever, as an excise scientist, as a
9:17
Speaker 1: high performance coach with teams, where I've had the opportunity
9:22
Speaker 1: to or there's definitely been a need for somebody, it
9:26
Speaker 1: like an understandable need or an obvious need for somebody
9:29
Speaker 1: to receive some feedback. But also the question is often
9:33
Speaker 1: well do they want the feedback? It like, if I've
9:37
Speaker 1: got the most accurate, insightful feedback for them based on
9:40
Speaker 1: the impact they're creating on others or themselves or their
9:43
Speaker 1: own performance, but they're not open to receive the feedback,
9:47
Speaker 1: which is often the case, especially if it's processed or
9:51
Speaker 1: perceived as criticism. Hateful and hurtful rather than positive and productive.
9:58
Speaker 1: Because people, whatever you say, whatever you your intention is
10:01
Speaker 1: not their experience. So your intention might be, hey, I
10:04
Speaker 1: know how I can help you, and I want to
10:07
Speaker 1: help you. So here here's my feedback. And my intention
10:11
Speaker 1: is good. I'm a good human, I like you. I
10:13
Speaker 1: actually want you to succeed. So here comes my well
10:16
Speaker 1: intended advice feedback. But blah blah, guess what old mate
10:20
Speaker 1: gets cracks the shits. Old mate doesn't talk to you
10:23
Speaker 1: anymore because your good intention was his hurtful comment or
10:27
Speaker 1: her hurtful comment. So there's this there's this two way
10:32
Speaker 1: kind of component to this, where we've got to anticipate
10:36
Speaker 1: how they think or how they are in this moment.
10:39
Speaker 1: We've got to read the room. We've got to try
10:41
Speaker 1: and have a look through their window to figure out
10:44
Speaker 1: how do what one do? I give feedback even though
10:48
Speaker 1: you know, like I'll give you an example, clear example,
10:51
Speaker 1: my dad thinks a certain way, right, there are certain
10:53
Speaker 1: conversations that I could have with my dad that would
10:55
Speaker 1: be true and very perhaps valuable and in normative over
11:00
Speaker 1: the years anyway a little bit different these days, but
11:04
Speaker 1: where I could have helped my dad with certain things unequivocally,
11:08
Speaker 1: but my dad just didn't want feedback. He'd like, he
11:11
Speaker 1: did not want anyone to anyway it. But even though
11:15
Speaker 1: my intentions were good, even though I had the knowledge,
11:17
Speaker 1: even though I had the understanding, and even though I
11:20
Speaker 1: loved him and wanted to support and help him, there
11:23
Speaker 1: will be times when I would give my dad some
11:25
Speaker 1: feedback or advice that he definitely didn't want, despite the
11:28
Speaker 1: fact that it was coming from a good place, and
11:31
Speaker 1: it actually created more problems than solutions. So I think
11:35
Speaker 1: there's that, and I don't need an answer from you,
11:39
Speaker 1: but it's just there's that. Yeah, it's easier said than done,
11:43
Speaker 1: as is fucking everything in behavioral psychology and you know,
11:47
Speaker 1: communication and performance anyway. But I think that's something that
11:51
Speaker 1: we all need to navigate. And yeah, you've been given feedback.
11:55
Speaker 1: I'm sure you didn't like. I've been given feedback I
11:58
Speaker 1: didn't like and me but you know, sometimes in hindsight,
12:03
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I still think they're wrong. But sometimes
12:06
Speaker 1: in hindsight, I'm like, yeah, no, that's I didn't My
12:10
Speaker 1: ego definitely didn't like that. My self esteem and self
12:12
Speaker 1: worth didn't like that. But when I try to turn
12:16
Speaker 1: down the emotion. Yeah, they're actually right. So it's pretty complicated.
12:21
Speaker 2: Well, let's go back to what you were saying. It
12:23
Speaker 2: all communication is complicated. Human beings, by our nature are complicated.
12:29
Speaker 2: So you and your dad are having a conversation, and
12:34
Speaker 2: let's go off of the assumption from what you said
12:37
Speaker 2: that you know your well meaning and he knows your
12:40
Speaker 2: well meaning. But when you deliver the feedback, Nope, that's
12:44
Speaker 2: not the case.
12:45
Speaker 1: No, no, yeah.
12:48
Speaker 2: Don't trust to your knowledge or your intention? Which one
12:52
Speaker 2: is it?
12:52
Speaker 1: Like?
12:52
Speaker 2: Is it because you're a son.
12:54
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is there are some like my dad
12:57
Speaker 1: does not want advice from me, and that's cool. It's
13:01
Speaker 1: a little bit different now because he's old and pretty fragile, right,
13:04
Speaker 1: it's a little it's that that dynamic and that kind
13:07
Speaker 1: of I don't know that energy has shifted. But for
13:11
Speaker 1: the vast majority of our relationship, I couldn't tell my
13:15
Speaker 1: dad anything, Like my dad didn't want me to teach
13:18
Speaker 1: him or tell him anything.
13:20
Speaker 2: So perspective does not hold more weight than his own
13:24
Speaker 2: for whatever reason. That could be a lot of reasons.
13:26
Speaker 2: This could be correct. You know, I change your nappies.
13:29
Speaker 2: What could you possibly tell me right who it could
13:31
Speaker 2: be stubbornness. For whatever reason, it is his own internal
13:36
Speaker 2: autonomous voice. Yeah, carries more weight than yours, even if,
13:42
Speaker 2: even if this is something that you have a lot
13:44
Speaker 2: more experience than he does with hmm, yeah, I think
13:47
Speaker 2: that's common. That is that outlines a basic truth about
13:53
Speaker 2: most people. See. I believe that sometimes coming at someone
13:58
Speaker 2: directly with look, here's what I saw is what you
14:00
Speaker 2: need to do, that's the perfect thing that needs to
14:03
Speaker 2: be done, the vast majority of the time that doesn't work.
14:07
Speaker 2: And even if it works in the moment, I'm the
14:10
Speaker 2: other person is not arriving at conclusions that elevate elevate
14:16
Speaker 2: their confidence and capacity, so it might not have sustainable
14:21
Speaker 2: impact on them. So let let's let me give you
14:24
Speaker 2: an example from something I know nothing about basketball. Right.
14:29
Speaker 2: Let's say I'm out there and you know, I'm I'm
14:33
Speaker 2: doing one on one basketball, and me and my friend
14:36
Speaker 2: were trying to really get good at basketball, because yeah,
14:40
Speaker 2: we want to be good at basketball.
14:42
Speaker 1: This is a great analogy. I'm fucking I'm picturing you
14:45
Speaker 1: on a basketball court, right.
14:48
Speaker 2: It's it's hilarious. Anyone who's ever seen me not to
14:51
Speaker 2: mention knows me or listen to me. Just the sight
14:53
Speaker 2: of me would tell you why this is an absurd scenario.
14:58
Speaker 2: But Fred goesad shoots missus by a mile. Now I
15:04
Speaker 2: could say, now, remember in practice where we practiced releasing
15:10
Speaker 2: the ball just a little bit early. Well, here's what.
15:13
Speaker 1: You need to do.
15:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, right now? What if what if he doesn't take
15:20
Speaker 2: that on? No, I did exactly what we needed to do,
15:23
Speaker 2: and it's just I just missed the shot versus Wow. Okay,
15:28
Speaker 2: so what do you what do you think just happened there?
15:33
Speaker 2: Like you came all the way down the court. You
15:35
Speaker 2: know your layups have been like really great all game?
15:38
Speaker 2: What do you think is really going well? And what
15:41
Speaker 2: what do you think missed there? It's just a question.
15:44
Speaker 2: A lot of times that person will have insights and
15:48
Speaker 2: even if it comes down to, okay, here's here's a
15:52
Speaker 2: here's a tip that might help you make that basket
15:56
Speaker 2: next time. It's built on conclusions and insight that that
16:00
Speaker 2: person has arrived at. It hasn't violated their knowledge, it
16:04
Speaker 2: hasn't violated their identity. Let's say my friend's identity is
16:08
Speaker 2: I'm an amazing basketball player. So when you correct me,
16:11
Speaker 2: you're not correcting my basketball game, right. You could correct
16:13
Speaker 2: me because I don't give a toss about how good
16:15
Speaker 2: of a basketball player I am compared to my friend.
16:18
Speaker 2: For me, I want to get better because I like
16:21
Speaker 2: playing basketball at my mates. So for me, it's a
16:24
Speaker 2: social interaction, it's exercise. It to my mates. That's why
16:27
Speaker 2: I really want to improve. For this person, they consider
16:30
Speaker 2: themselves a competent basketball player. If I respect that autonomy,
16:35
Speaker 2: if I respect their competence, if I respect their identity
16:39
Speaker 2: and ask a series of questions, they arrive at their
16:41
Speaker 2: own conclusions. One they might figure out what happened too.
16:45
Speaker 2: Even if I say, hey, I think you might have
16:48
Speaker 2: do you think you might have released that ball a
16:50
Speaker 2: little bit too late, It's going to land very differently
16:53
Speaker 2: than if I just gave it unsolicited advice or even
16:57
Speaker 2: solicited advice. If it can flict with someone's internal perspective
17:03
Speaker 2: for some reason. Now the reason has a strong influence
17:07
Speaker 2: on the response, but it really doesn't matter. If there's
17:10
Speaker 2: a conflict. If you have two opposing frames, those frames
17:14
Speaker 2: are going to collide more of the time rather than
17:17
Speaker 2: seamlessly coincide. If that, If that makes sense.
17:22
Speaker 1: I've told this story probably twice in two thousand episodes,
17:25
Speaker 1: but I'll tell it again. So I was in Sydney
17:28
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago when I was doing a
17:29
Speaker 1: gig and I got up early in the morning and
17:33
Speaker 1: I went to a gym down the road. I think
17:35
Speaker 1: I was presenting at ten. And I was at the
17:37
Speaker 1: gym at whatever stupid o'clock in the morning, and there
17:41
Speaker 1: was a lady. It just happened to be a lady.
17:43
Speaker 1: It could have been a dude, but it happened to
17:44
Speaker 1: be a lady, and I didn't I didn't talk to
17:48
Speaker 1: her because she was a lady. I talked to her
17:50
Speaker 1: because I thought she was going to kill herself anyway.
17:53
Speaker 1: She was doing an exercise and she was using a
17:58
Speaker 1: relatively relatively heavyweight with absolutely the worst possible form, And
18:05
Speaker 1: it was not a matter of whether or not she
18:07
Speaker 1: might injure herself, it was just a matter of when,
18:10
Speaker 1: Like if she continued to do that that way, I've
18:13
Speaker 1: got absolutely zero doubt. And it's not many things I'm
18:17
Speaker 1: an expert at, but writing programs and prescribing exercise and
18:21
Speaker 1: watching people exercise and correcting form, it's maybe the only
18:25
Speaker 1: thing I'm actually an expert at right, and I watched
18:29
Speaker 1: her and I thought, anyway, I just said, I went
18:33
Speaker 1: up and I thought I knew it. I was a
18:35
Speaker 1: fraught with danger exercise and yeah, I just said, hey,
18:41
Speaker 1: could I just share something with you? And she basically
18:45
Speaker 1: told me to fuck off? And I'm like, okay, and look,
18:49
Speaker 1: I understand the response, like what she sees a buffed
18:53
Speaker 1: male with a shaved head in a single blah blah blah.
18:56
Speaker 1: Who's like, but here's the funny thing. I got the
19:01
Speaker 1: you know, I don't at all like this. I've got
19:03
Speaker 1: no criticism of her at all. But I could have
19:06
Speaker 1: literally spent sixty seconds with her and helped her immeasurably
19:11
Speaker 1: and potentially saved her from an injury. And but in hindsight,
19:20
Speaker 1: I go, well, as it turned out, I would have
19:23
Speaker 1: been better off not to ask her and not to
19:25
Speaker 1: try and help her. Like I often think that, you know,
19:30
Speaker 1: bad intentions or sorry, good intentions can produce bad outcomes,
19:34
Speaker 1: and so it's like it's like, you need Craig, you
19:39
Speaker 1: need situational awareness, you need social intelligence, you need to
19:42
Speaker 1: read the room. And I knew going in I thought this,
19:45
Speaker 1: this might not work, this might not and I didn't
19:48
Speaker 1: want anything from her. I didn't you know. It was
19:51
Speaker 1: literally fucking six thirty in the morning or whatever it was.
19:54
Speaker 1: And yeah, and I came away from that thinking not,
19:59
Speaker 1: you know, not what a cow or none, no, none
20:01
Speaker 1: of that. It's like I thought, yeah, I get it.
20:04
Speaker 1: You don't know me and I'm just some dude in
20:06
Speaker 1: the gym, and I totally yeah. But it's over the years,
20:09
Speaker 1: I've very rarely do I give people advice or any
20:15
Speaker 1: kind of input or feedback that they haven't sought. I
20:19
Speaker 1: just think it's a dangerous proposition. I mean, yeah, I mean,
20:24
Speaker 1: if I see someone who's in absolute palms, way would
20:28
Speaker 1: I do that? Again, I don't know, probably not, but
20:32
Speaker 1: you know, obviously if somebody's about to get run over
20:35
Speaker 1: by a car, it's a different thing. But but yeah,
20:37
Speaker 1: I don't know how we navigate that because you it's
20:40
Speaker 1: like you have a certain level of knowledge and expertise
20:43
Speaker 1: and experience that is really valuable to people. And it's
20:47
Speaker 1: like there are times when you could share some of
20:49
Speaker 1: your knowledge or inside or wisdom or skill and you
20:53
Speaker 1: might save someone six months of pain, or you might
20:57
Speaker 1: be able to help them achieve in a week. What
20:59
Speaker 1: would it taken them a year if they might. But
21:03
Speaker 1: at the same time, you might also open that door
21:06
Speaker 1: and they just think you're an arrogant, egotistical, self righteous
21:09
Speaker 1: dick who thinks who thinks he's better than people. So
21:13
Speaker 1: that that's why I think it's so much about situational awareness, perception,
21:22
Speaker 1: you know, theory of mind, understanding how other people think, like,
21:27
Speaker 1: you know, being a bit instinctive, a bit intuitive, and
21:30
Speaker 1: then you know, go from there.
21:33
Speaker 2: What I really like about a lot of films lately
21:36
Speaker 2: is they'll do this.
21:37
Speaker 1: That wasn't the sentence I expected. Yep, go on.
21:41
Speaker 2: You're you're seeing the entire story from the perspective of
21:46
Speaker 2: one of the main characters, and you're like, Okay, I
21:48
Speaker 2: know exactly what's going on right now. I get this.
21:53
Speaker 2: And then midway through there'll be flashbacks and you start
21:57
Speaker 2: seeing the story from the perspective of the villain or
22:01
Speaker 2: another main character, and it's not the same at all.
22:04
Speaker 2: Turns out you didn't really know anything because you would
22:07
Speaker 2: get in the story from one frame. So I think
22:10
Speaker 2: when that happens, it's it's not a matter of what
22:12
Speaker 2: people need, it's a matter of what they're open to,
22:15
Speaker 2: what they're ready for and what they want need is
22:19
Speaker 2: is irrelevant. Now you understand that you've owned gyms, you
22:24
Speaker 2: understand that you have trained trainers, You understand that there
22:28
Speaker 2: are probably literally tens of thousands of people that seek
22:33
Speaker 2: your advice out in terms of your expertise as a
22:37
Speaker 2: physiologist and practical application as a guy who's been training
22:41
Speaker 2: for a few decades. She knows none of that, So
22:45
Speaker 2: she might have perceived threat, and by threat not like,
22:48
Speaker 2: oh this guy's dangerous, is in a like beat me
22:51
Speaker 2: with a you know, two kilo plate or something like that,
22:55
Speaker 2: But yeah, what does this guy know? Or maybe she
22:58
Speaker 2: had a really bad experience with someone who was either
23:01
Speaker 2: trying to pick her up or just thought they knew
23:04
Speaker 2: everything and they were just like you said, trying to
23:06
Speaker 2: be arrogant. There's so many there's so many great examples
23:10
Speaker 2: from the gym. So when I was a trainer, this
23:13
Speaker 2: is going back Man Gold's Jim Brooklyn, and I don't
23:18
Speaker 2: even think I was twenty years old, or maybe I
23:21
Speaker 2: was exactly twenty years old, and I went up to
23:24
Speaker 2: this lady who was doing something that maybe not then
23:28
Speaker 2: in there. It's not like both of her arms are
23:30
Speaker 2: gonna rip out of the sockets. Blood's gonna be squirting
23:33
Speaker 2: out of her stumps as she runs through the gym maimed.
23:37
Speaker 2: Although that would make a really great, low budget, be
23:41
Speaker 2: B level horror film, wouldn't it. But you could tell, yeah,
23:45
Speaker 2: she's she's gonna endorse some pain and suffering if she
23:48
Speaker 2: keeps doing what she's doing in the way she's doing it,
23:52
Speaker 2: with the level of motor control she's doing it. And
23:57
Speaker 2: I had approached her and said something very my, hey,
24:00
Speaker 2: do you mind if now? Her first response to me
24:04
Speaker 2: was do you see that guy over there right? And
24:07
Speaker 2: she points to this guy who was enormous. Now at
24:09
Speaker 2: the time, I was nearly one hundred kilos lean. This
24:13
Speaker 2: guy could have eaten me. He could have swallowed me whole.
24:15
Speaker 2: He kind of looked like Godzilla and a wife beater.
24:20
Speaker 2: And she's like, that's my husband. He showed me how,
24:25
Speaker 2: he showed me how to do this. Wow, now, what
24:28
Speaker 2: does that statement mean to you? What did you just
24:32
Speaker 2: get out of that craig.
24:34
Speaker 1: Mm fuck off? She's like, well, he definitely knows more
24:39
Speaker 1: than you. Look at him. If he doesn't know, nobody knows,
24:44
Speaker 1: look at his results. So I'm paying attention to him.
24:48
Speaker 1: And by the way, who are you exactly? Yeah, you're
24:52
Speaker 1: a weado away.
24:53
Speaker 2: So she doesn't know that principles of biomechanics, physics, physiology
25:02
Speaker 2: operate outside of the level of mass of an individual.
25:08
Speaker 2: You could be that you could be four hundred kilos
25:14
Speaker 2: at three percent body fat. It's not going to change
25:18
Speaker 2: the laws of the universe at all. Newtonian physics will
25:21
Speaker 2: still operate here, physiology will still operate. I could I
25:27
Speaker 2: could not even be able to describe what the inside
25:30
Speaker 2: of a gym looks like. But I could be in
25:33
Speaker 2: a lab studying human movement science. I might not understand
25:37
Speaker 2: the practical application, but I still understand a lot more
25:43
Speaker 2: than even that big guy in the gym. But it
25:45
Speaker 2: wasn't just that, it was she had an emotional investment
25:50
Speaker 2: obviously with her husband. She not only she not only thought, well,
25:54
Speaker 2: he knows what he's talking about. He's my husband. So
25:58
Speaker 2: there's an emotional cane. There is no way I am
26:02
Speaker 2: going to logically win that argument. I could give her
26:06
Speaker 2: a three hour lesson in four singles and moment arms
26:11
Speaker 2: and functional anatomy, it's not going to make a difference.
26:15
Speaker 2: So what we were learning how to do because walking
26:19
Speaker 2: the floor was the way that we drove revenue, and
26:22
Speaker 2: for many years in the fitness industry, the primary way
26:25
Speaker 2: that a trainer had the greatest amount of autonomy to
26:28
Speaker 2: drive revenue was through walking the floor. You had more
26:33
Speaker 2: opportunity there than anywhere else. I think it's it's changed now.
26:37
Speaker 2: But so the conversation I had with her was looking
26:41
Speaker 2: at that guy. My first words out of my mouth,
26:44
Speaker 2: and this was totally spontaneous, was holy shit, that's your husband.
26:51
Speaker 2: Like the guy was impressively massive, like just just sheer
26:55
Speaker 2: body mass. It was remarkable. And I said to her, yeah,
27:00
Speaker 2: I would not like if I would not question a
27:03
Speaker 2: guy that is able to develop his body to that degree.
27:09
Speaker 2: I said, can I ask you a couple of questions? Though?
27:13
Speaker 2: How long has he been working out? How long did
27:16
Speaker 2: it take this guy to build himself up into that?
27:21
Speaker 2: I said, because you know, I've been working out a while,
27:23
Speaker 2: and you know, I, like I said, I was, I
27:26
Speaker 2: was pretty big, pretty lean, I was on a lot
27:28
Speaker 2: of drugs, and I was like, I'm the way near
27:32
Speaker 2: this guy. I need to know this right. She tells
27:35
Speaker 2: me about all the decades he's been training. I was like, God,
27:38
Speaker 2: how many days a week? Does she train this? Who
27:40
Speaker 2: always coming here? I'm going through all of these questions,
27:44
Speaker 2: and I'm like, you know, it's really it's really cool
27:46
Speaker 2: to him to help you out, Like I wish I
27:48
Speaker 2: had someone like that invested in me, that can help
27:52
Speaker 2: me out in the gym. When I was getting started,
27:54
Speaker 2: How long have you been training? Just very casual? She's
27:57
Speaker 2: been training a couple of months, I said, can ask something.
28:01
Speaker 2: Does it make sense that a guy who's been training
28:05
Speaker 2: multiple decades, who has developed his body into like maybe
28:08
Speaker 2: the top two percent of everybody with his goal in society,
28:13
Speaker 2: and who's advanced as that, might have different goals and
28:16
Speaker 2: needs and levels of abilities versus someone who's just been
28:20
Speaker 2: training for a few months. You know, does it make
28:22
Speaker 2: sense that a downhill champion Olympic skier has very different
28:28
Speaker 2: needs than someone who's been skiing for a few months.
28:31
Speaker 1: Were you trying to get yourself killed? No?
28:34
Speaker 2: I mean what I was doing?
28:37
Speaker 1: What you doing? What are you doing? The appropriative response
28:41
Speaker 1: was sure, okay, thank you, And then see, yeah, well,
28:46
Speaker 1: well we'll ask me what happened, Hi, Bubby, what happened?
28:52
Speaker 1: I said, Now, in the context of what he's telling you,
28:56
Speaker 1: he's absolutely correct. Do you mind if I show you
28:59
Speaker 1: a modification that might be useful as an alternative to
29:03
Speaker 1: kind of.
29:04
Speaker 2: Like meet you where you need to be met. That's it,
29:08
Speaker 2: just something that might be something that you can execute
29:15
Speaker 2: with greater confidence and effectiveness, just a small tweak. You
29:18
Speaker 2: can accept it or not. Because I validated everything she said,
29:23
Speaker 2: and because I packaged that entire narrative in a way
29:28
Speaker 2: that lined up with her thoughts, her belief systems, and
29:31
Speaker 2: the narrative that was already running in her head, it
29:34
Speaker 2: was much harder for her to tell me to piss
29:37
Speaker 2: off because I sound just like she sounds in her
29:40
Speaker 2: own mind. So that made me one not only more credible,
29:47
Speaker 2: without even getting into any science whatsoever, it also made
29:50
Speaker 2: me safer.
29:53
Speaker 1: Huh.
29:54
Speaker 2: What I used to tell trainers is and less like
29:57
Speaker 2: in your case, unless you see somebody doing something and
30:00
Speaker 2: you think they're going to hurt themselves. I'm not talking
30:02
Speaker 2: about months from now, but it's imminent. Never ever approach
30:07
Speaker 2: someone and give advice or a recommendation. Even if you
30:12
Speaker 2: follow the training, you'll hear from a lot of speakers.
30:14
Speaker 2: Oh excuse me, sir, you know I noticed you. Do
30:17
Speaker 2: you mind if nope? That's not going to work or
30:20
Speaker 2: what's your goal? Yeah, that's always real effective on the
30:23
Speaker 2: gym floor. Never do anything like that. Just introduce yourself,
30:27
Speaker 2: build a little bit of rapport, and then piss off.
30:31
Speaker 2: You just drip on these people. And if you drip
30:33
Speaker 2: on people in the way I'm telling you to drip
30:35
Speaker 2: on them, I guarantee you ten percent of everybody you
30:38
Speaker 2: talk to in this facility will be a client of
30:42
Speaker 2: yours within a giving amount of time, depending on how
30:45
Speaker 2: many people you're able to talk to per day. And
30:48
Speaker 2: it's just the same thing. It's just giving advice versus
30:54
Speaker 2: drawing somebody out and having them elicit the context of
30:58
Speaker 2: the conversation.
31:01
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think it still remains though that I
31:07
Speaker 1: don't disagree with you, and that that is a good
31:09
Speaker 1: story and you did do a good job, a better
31:12
Speaker 1: job than me, it seems. But I still think people
31:17
Speaker 1: don't like feedback unless it's glowing. It's like I think
31:21
Speaker 1: the it just the fact remains that people don't want
31:26
Speaker 1: they don't really want feedback unless it's positive, unless it's affirmation,
31:30
Speaker 1: unless it's an endorsement, unless it's a form of praise.
31:37
Speaker 1: You know, when you tell someone you know, even with
31:40
Speaker 1: the most compassionate empathy and situational awareness and kindness and
31:45
Speaker 1: all of that, but you tell them that they're doing
31:47
Speaker 1: it poorly or badly or dangerously or you know, it's
31:53
Speaker 1: like you're talking about that guy that has no awareness.
31:56
Speaker 1: I think you's something. You know, some people who are
32:00
Speaker 1: kind of socially annoying, How the fuck do you tell
32:04
Speaker 1: them that? You know? It's like like a lot of people,
32:09
Speaker 1: you know, we know that at your core you're a
32:11
Speaker 1: good person, but like sometimes you kind of talk about
32:14
Speaker 1: yourself a lot and you never ask anyone else about themselves.
32:19
Speaker 1: It's like I've had that conversation with people and that
32:23
Speaker 1: is are.
32:23
Speaker 2: We talking about me?
32:25
Speaker 1: No?
32:26
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no no, but just that It's like
32:30
Speaker 3: there are some people that are essentially good people, but
32:31
Speaker 3: because they're insecure, they literally talk about themselves the whole time,
32:35
Speaker 3: because their mission is to impress people like my objective,
32:40
Speaker 3: and they would never maybe they don't even know it.
32:42
Speaker 3: But rather than just going you know, uh, how are you,
32:48
Speaker 3: what's going on with you?
32:49
Speaker 1: Tell me about how's work, how are your parents? You know,
32:52
Speaker 1: what is up? How's your wife? How your kids? Has
32:55
Speaker 1: that project? Like you started? I know you joined a gym,
32:58
Speaker 1: or I know that you're enrolled in a course, or
33:01
Speaker 1: tell me about that. Like, as soon as you genuinely
33:04
Speaker 1: talk to people in that way, you're building rapport and connection.
33:08
Speaker 1: For most people anyways, some people don't want to talk
33:10
Speaker 1: about themselves, but the majority do given the right context
33:14
Speaker 1: and the right approach. But I think, like as somebody
33:18
Speaker 1: who has had to as part of my role as
33:21
Speaker 1: a leader and a business owner and an employer, I
33:24
Speaker 1: have literally had to give people feedback probably thousands of times,
33:33
Speaker 1: but at least hundreds of times. There were staff that
33:36
Speaker 1: I had where you could go hey, Bobby, and you go, yeah,
33:40
Speaker 1: what's up. I go, you know that thing that you
33:42
Speaker 1: did before with that lady when you did x YZ
33:45
Speaker 1: And you go yep, I go, don't do that and
33:48
Speaker 1: you go oh okay, and I go, it's all good.
33:52
Speaker 1: It's not a drama. But these are the reasons I
33:54
Speaker 1: don't want you to do that, or why I think
33:56
Speaker 1: it's not a good idea, And you go, yeah, that
33:58
Speaker 1: makes total sense, thanks Craig, And I'm like, see you mate,
34:02
Speaker 1: all good, and then we have lunch an hour later
34:05
Speaker 1: and we're happy as fuck right now to have a
34:08
Speaker 1: version of that conversation with someone else, I've got to
34:12
Speaker 1: do like this fucking verbal gymnastics, trying to somehow get
34:18
Speaker 1: them in an emotional lands psychological state where they are
34:21
Speaker 1: mildly receptive. Whereas I know I can tell Bobby stuff
34:26
Speaker 1: and he just goes, yeah, sure, I get it, that
34:28
Speaker 1: makes sense, no problem. But for other people it just
34:33
Speaker 1: does not work that way. And I had a few
34:36
Speaker 1: staff members over the years where I'm like, I fucking
34:40
Speaker 1: dreaded giving them feedback, and it was for their own good,
34:42
Speaker 1: and it was for professionalism, and it was for the
34:45
Speaker 1: client's welfare, and it was always warranted, Like I would
34:49
Speaker 1: rather not give it, like it, I only did it
34:52
Speaker 1: because I had to, because I needed to protect firstly
34:55
Speaker 1: the client, secondly the trainer, and thirdly the right. So
35:00
Speaker 1: there are just some conversations despite the fact that I
35:04
Speaker 1: don't want to fucking do it. It's like, well, Craig,
35:06
Speaker 1: you own the joint. There's nobody else you know that
35:10
Speaker 1: that being able to navigate the the uniqueness of each
35:18
Speaker 1: person's kind of social and emotional and kind of mental
35:24
Speaker 1: intelligence in that context dealing with that stuff, because it's like,
35:29
Speaker 1: you know, someone takes one pill they're good. Someone takes
35:31
Speaker 1: the same pill for the same condition they get sick.
35:34
Speaker 1: It's that's the same with feedback, with communication, with training,
35:37
Speaker 1: with with any kind of inbound stimulus. You know.
35:43
Speaker 2: And but let's unpack a lot of the wisdom that
35:45
Speaker 2: you that you just get, because there was a lot
35:47
Speaker 2: of gold nuggets in that entire narrative. I mean, if
35:53
Speaker 2: we go back, we can start with the guy that
35:56
Speaker 2: talks about himself all the time, not because he's selfish
36:01
Speaker 2: and completely disinterested in others, but he is insecure, right,
36:07
Speaker 2: so he does not think he measures up to people
36:11
Speaker 2: in order to gain love and acceptance. Oh, listen to me,
36:15
Speaker 2: and you know, if I could tell a really great
36:17
Speaker 2: story about myself and make myself look good, well then
36:22
Speaker 2: you'll accept me no self awareness whatsoever. Because he is
36:26
Speaker 2: so focused on his own insecurity that you're having the
36:29
Speaker 2: exact opposite effect on people. So you pull a person
36:33
Speaker 2: like that over who's insecure and you give them critical
36:36
Speaker 2: feedback and a difficult conversation, they're going to defend themselves
36:42
Speaker 2: because that is a threat. I think what you also
36:45
Speaker 2: said is when you had rapport with certain people, that
36:51
Speaker 2: rapport is an implicit contract I mean, we got to
36:56
Speaker 2: talk about what is rapport because a lot of times
36:59
Speaker 2: when you buy an audio program or you buy a
37:03
Speaker 2: book on rapport, the author will refer to rapport like
37:07
Speaker 2: in sales, let's say, as a state of likability, like
37:11
Speaker 2: you really like that person. Wow, that's not what rapport is.
37:16
Speaker 2: It's hard, it's really hard to build rapport if you
37:20
Speaker 2: truly deeply cannot stand each other. But rapport, the best
37:25
Speaker 2: definition I've heard is it's a relationship of positive responsiveness
37:33
Speaker 2: between yourself. So if you're not in rapport with yourself,
37:37
Speaker 2: it's very hard to be in rapport with someone else
37:39
Speaker 2: and another person. So it's that ability. Our relationship dynamic
37:44
Speaker 2: is such that when we communicate, things happen. There is
37:50
Speaker 2: a responsiveness that is occurring, could be observed in the conversation,
37:55
Speaker 2: and as a result of the relationship that is amazing.
37:58
Speaker 2: So when you've developed to that degree, there's an implicit
38:02
Speaker 2: understanding that you're invested in me, where other people you
38:10
Speaker 2: might be in the exact role where not only is
38:12
Speaker 2: inappropriate to have this conversation, it's negligent not to, but
38:17
Speaker 2: you still get an emotional response because that level of
38:20
Speaker 2: rapport hasn't been built, or maybe you're talking to someone
38:23
Speaker 2: who it's very hard to build rapport with because they're
38:26
Speaker 2: always right. You have those people. Now for me to say, like,
38:31
Speaker 2: here's what I've done about this, I just want to
38:33
Speaker 2: come clean being very vulnerable. The last time in recent
38:38
Speaker 2: history I managed a small team of people, I was
38:43
Speaker 2: atrocious in having critical conversations and I completely shit the bed.
38:51
Speaker 2: So I just I just want to come clean on
38:53
Speaker 2: that is no, because I a lot of times I
39:00
Speaker 2: just want to say that things have worked for me
39:02
Speaker 2: in the past, or I've learned them and I have
39:04
Speaker 2: applied them, but sometimes I don't apply them very well
39:07
Speaker 2: at all. And I think that's important when you're trying
39:11
Speaker 2: to share information with someone, and I think it's critical
39:14
Speaker 2: to respect the people who are listening or go Yeah,
39:17
Speaker 2: there are times where you know, I've read all the books,
39:20
Speaker 2: I've gotten on stage and done the seminars, I've applied
39:23
Speaker 2: it on my with my teams, and then other times
39:26
Speaker 2: for whatever reason where I was I shit the bed completely.
39:30
Speaker 2: Oh and so will you. And that's normal because if
39:35
Speaker 2: you reflect on that, you'll learn from it. So what's
39:39
Speaker 2: what I found used to work for me with teams
39:43
Speaker 2: is setting up a series of agreements really early. And
39:49
Speaker 2: let me just say, a lot of times, if you
39:51
Speaker 2: if you have a level of rapport and there's a
39:53
Speaker 2: level of honesty, asking very pointed specific questions, you usually
40:00
Speaker 2: elicits a solution. People know, Like at some level, people know,
40:06
Speaker 2: and when they come to the end of themselves, sometimes
40:08
Speaker 2: they go, well what do you think and they open
40:10
Speaker 2: up that door. Doesn't mean they're going to take your advice,
40:13
Speaker 2: but at least it's it's by invitation and not perception
40:19
Speaker 2: of imposition. But I would establish agreements with people like
40:24
Speaker 2: what are we trying to achieve here? Right? So this
40:26
Speaker 2: is what the company, This is what the department's goals are.
40:28
Speaker 2: This is the company. What are your personal aspirations? What's
40:32
Speaker 2: important to you? What does success look like for you? Okay,
40:35
Speaker 2: what needs to happen? Not like, okay, I'm going to
40:38
Speaker 2: tell you what needs to happen? Again, what do you
40:40
Speaker 2: think needs to happen? And then at some point in
40:43
Speaker 2: the conversation, so well, here's what has worked for the
40:47
Speaker 2: majority of people who have had similar goals to you.
40:50
Speaker 2: They've done this, which one of those things seem most
40:53
Speaker 2: resonant with you so I'd spend a lot of time
40:56
Speaker 2: up front, and if something occurred where there was a
41:01
Speaker 2: violation of an agreement, I would make the most generous assumption.
41:07
Speaker 2: I would make the assumption that either it's it's a
41:10
Speaker 2: learning curve, or it was unintentional, or maybe the person
41:14
Speaker 2: didn't know enough to recognize that an error was being
41:17
Speaker 2: made or agreement was being violated. I think, I think
41:21
Speaker 2: having that mindset changes the dynamic in your nonverbal communication.
41:27
Speaker 2: And then I would I would always I would always
41:30
Speaker 2: take responsibility for it, because one is a leader, you
41:34
Speaker 2: are always responsible, not you who right? And in earlier conversations,
41:40
Speaker 2: I would always end them with Okay, what can I
41:43
Speaker 2: do to help? What is my role in helping you
41:47
Speaker 2: achieve your goals? How do you how does that show
41:50
Speaker 2: up right?
41:51
Speaker 1: Like?
41:53
Speaker 2: How how do you want me to bring it to
41:54
Speaker 2: your attention? How do you like feedback? And all of
41:57
Speaker 2: these questions. So now I could just say, hey, like
42:01
Speaker 2: I noticed something happened, and you know, I just wanted
42:05
Speaker 2: to catch it and say I probably didn't explain this correctly,
42:08
Speaker 2: so I put the responsibility on me. Is that gonna
42:11
Speaker 2: work in every single situation?
42:13
Speaker 1: No?
42:14
Speaker 2: And sometimes I would even have a candid conversation about, well,
42:18
Speaker 2: if you were me and the situation was reversed, how
42:21
Speaker 2: would you handle this situation? Like, what do you think
42:24
Speaker 2: would be most helpful? Now, I never had anyone fire
42:27
Speaker 2: themselves before, but usually what they come up with it's
42:33
Speaker 2: pretty on the nose a lot. In most cases, it's
42:36
Speaker 2: a little bit more harsh than what I would have
42:38
Speaker 2: come up with, because they're looking at, oh, if I
42:40
Speaker 2: was the boss. Very rarely do I sit in a
42:43
Speaker 2: position of leadership and think I'm the boss of anyone.
42:46
Speaker 2: Most of the time it's the other way around. You're
42:49
Speaker 2: there to serve those people. But I think those types
42:52
Speaker 2: of open inquiry is not only more better received, yes,
43:00
Speaker 2: but a lot of times the application of it is
43:03
Speaker 2: a little bit more sustainable because not only autonomy, it's agency.
43:09
Speaker 2: People are coming up with their own strategies on how
43:12
Speaker 2: to adapt and move forward more successfully.
43:16
Speaker 1: I feel like people want to feel good more than
43:17
Speaker 1: they want to grow, you know, and growth is hard,
43:22
Speaker 1: and growth is uncomfortable, and feedback is hard, and feedback
43:25
Speaker 1: is uncomfortable, and acknowledging our own mistakes or flaws is uncomfortable,
43:31
Speaker 1: and it's you know, you think about think about how
43:36
Speaker 1: many things you've gotten wrong over the years. I don't
43:38
Speaker 1: know how many that is, but for me, I don't
43:41
Speaker 1: know that thousands, thousands, And that's not me throwing me
43:45
Speaker 1: under the bus. That's me just trying to be brave
43:47
Speaker 1: and honest and aware of how many things I got
43:51
Speaker 1: wrong in conversations, how many decisions I made that were
43:54
Speaker 1: bad with my body, with my training, with my nutrition,
43:58
Speaker 1: with relationships, with business, with with you know, content for
44:03
Speaker 1: courses and programs, and how many times I misread a
44:07
Speaker 1: situation or misread a person, or or spoke inappropriately, or
44:12
Speaker 1: or believed something that was untrue or you know, it's
44:17
Speaker 1: but to be able to go I actually like, I
44:21
Speaker 1: actually listen to these guys talk because I genuinely just
44:24
Speaker 1: want to think better, do better, be better, create better outcomes. Well,
44:28
Speaker 1: part of that, you know, is almost like that self
44:32
Speaker 1: feedback of all, right, what is my life telling me?
44:35
Speaker 1: What are my relationships telling me? Because that's all feedback,
44:38
Speaker 1: that's data. What's my body saying, what's my bank balance saying?
44:43
Speaker 1: You know, there are all of these kind of objective
44:46
Speaker 1: outcomes that we can at the very least be aware
44:48
Speaker 1: of and then perhaps interpret. You know, I keep doing
44:52
Speaker 1: this thing. I have this happen, this pattern, this habit,
44:55
Speaker 1: this behavior, this protocol, and this is the result. Well
44:59
Speaker 1: that it's a shit result. So the way that I'm
45:03
Speaker 1: approaching it doesn't work, or it doesn't work optimally, but
45:08
Speaker 1: I'm comfortable with that. And for me to really move
45:12
Speaker 1: the needle is going to be not quick or painless
45:15
Speaker 1: or easy or fun or comfortable, you know. And this
45:18
Speaker 1: is the whole, you know, whether or not we're getting
45:20
Speaker 1: the feedback, the input, the data, the awareness from some
45:25
Speaker 1: objective measure that we can see or some number you know,
45:29
Speaker 1: or some measurable outcome, or we're getting it from Bobby
45:33
Speaker 1: who gives a fuck about us and just wants to
45:35
Speaker 1: actually help us on our way. Either way, it still
45:40
Speaker 1: requires somebody to acknowledge something that is going to be
45:45
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and potentially open a door to changing thinking, habits, behavior, whatever.
45:51
Speaker 1: That is going to be a slow fix, not a
45:53
Speaker 1: quick fixed, more than likely.
45:57
Speaker 2: But there's always that population of people that will not
46:00
Speaker 2: move forward. Yeah, and the common denominator in every situation
46:06
Speaker 2: is themselves. And there is some of those people you're
46:11
Speaker 2: not going to be able to do anything about. Yes,
46:15
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes you're responsible in a lot of cases
46:19
Speaker 2: for effort not outcome. Yeah, you're showing up putting the
46:24
Speaker 2: effort into people. That's a good thing to be responsible for.
46:28
Speaker 2: I think that feels good for you as well. It's
46:31
Speaker 2: it's I think, in my opinion, it's a great way
46:34
Speaker 2: to live. But the outcome a lot of times is
46:36
Speaker 2: out of your hands, especially when it comes to autonomous decisions. Yes,
46:40
Speaker 2: with me, there's there's levels of a conversation. You know,
46:44
Speaker 2: there's there's focusing like what are we actually dealing with?
46:47
Speaker 2: What's the situation? Like what's the root cause that drove
46:52
Speaker 2: this critical conversation? Then there's the evoking why, Okay, this
46:57
Speaker 2: person wants to feel comfortable, they don't want to feel
47:00
Speaker 2: horrible and receive this. Why what's underneath that resistance? And
47:06
Speaker 2: based on what we can uncover in the receptiveness and
47:09
Speaker 2: that says, okay, well, planning, what do we do with this?
47:11
Speaker 2: How do we move forward constructively so we can get better,
47:15
Speaker 2: we can grow, we can minimize this or mitigate a
47:19
Speaker 2: portion of the problem. And you know, I think it's
47:23
Speaker 2: just like selling. If you're going through all of your
47:26
Speaker 2: steps and you're speaking to a certain amount of people.
47:29
Speaker 2: You're gonna have a closing ratio and guess what it's
47:31
Speaker 2: going to be far from one hundred percent.
47:35
Speaker 1: Do you want to hear what chat chept thinks about this?
47:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just about to ask you. I wonder
47:40
Speaker 2: what chat cheaptee thinks about this.
47:43
Speaker 1: So this is what I just asked. Do people actually
47:45
Speaker 1: want feedback? This is what chatters has to say. One.
47:49
Speaker 1: People say they want it, but they usually want the
47:51
Speaker 1: edited version. Most people don't want raw, unfiltered, uncomfortable truth.
47:54
Speaker 1: They want validation with a sprinkle of insight, reassurance with
47:58
Speaker 1: a side of suggestion, feedback that doesn't poke their ego,
48:01
Speaker 1: improvement without discomfort. Basically, my chat gpt writes like me,
48:08
Speaker 1: basically give me feedback as long as it doesn't make
48:10
Speaker 1: me feel shit. Two. People want to feel good more
48:13
Speaker 1: than they want to grow. Growth requires discomfort. Feedback threatens
48:19
Speaker 1: self esteem, identity, narratives, emotional safety, the illusion of competency.
48:24
Speaker 1: Humans are wired to protect their self concept, so even
48:27
Speaker 1: when feedback is helpful, it often feels like danger. Three.
48:32
Speaker 1: The brain interprets feedback as a threat. Neuroscience one oh one,
48:35
Speaker 1: You're amigdalat often reacts to feedback the same way that
48:38
Speaker 1: it reacts to someone saying we need to talk. Heart
48:42
Speaker 1: Rate rises, defensiveness activates, ego wakes up, cortisol increases, protective
48:47
Speaker 1: narrative turns on. Feedback equals you might not be who
48:51
Speaker 1: you think you are, and that's terrifying for most people. Four,
48:56
Speaker 1: But people do want to improve. There's ten. I'll just
48:58
Speaker 1: do five. Four. Here's the paradox. People don't like receiving feedback,
49:02
Speaker 1: but they do like progress, competence, mastery, growth, achieving goals, succeeding,
49:07
Speaker 1: becoming better versions of themselves. So internally people want the
49:11
Speaker 1: outcome of feedback, they just don't want the emotional discomfort
49:14
Speaker 1: of hearing it. People do like feedback when it's one gentle,
49:19
Speaker 1: framed positively delivered by someone they trust, the timing is right,
49:23
Speaker 1: their nervous system has come. It feels like support rather
49:26
Speaker 1: than judgment. It's specific and actionable, and it doesn't trigger shame.
49:31
Speaker 1: They like feedback that feels like help, not criticism. I'll
49:35
Speaker 1: do one more because it's valid.
49:37
Speaker 2: That makes perfect sense.
49:39
Speaker 1: And this one last one. People hate feedback when it
49:43
Speaker 1: attacks identity. It feels personal, it's vague, it's public, it's unexpected.
49:48
Speaker 1: The tone is off, It highlights blind spots, it implies
49:51
Speaker 1: their flawed. It wasn't asked for. Most people didn't grow
49:54
Speaker 1: up in environments where honest feedback equals safety, so adult
49:59
Speaker 1: feedback feels like a threat, not guidance. That's interesting, isn't it?
50:04
Speaker 2: Well? I think it's it's understanding human nature. There is
50:09
Speaker 2: an element though, that I do want to maybe challenge,
50:13
Speaker 2: and far be it for me to argue with a
50:16
Speaker 2: cyber super genius, but I want to go I want
50:20
Speaker 2: to go back to some research on gratitude because there's
50:23
Speaker 2: some interesting stuff in there, right, and a little bit
50:27
Speaker 2: of social cognitive theory. So the whole thing about people,
50:32
Speaker 2: People desire comfort more than they desire growth. Here's a
50:36
Speaker 2: question for everyone listening to this, have you or can
50:41
Speaker 2: you remember a little bit more of a loaded question,
50:45
Speaker 2: a specific time in your life where things were hard
50:49
Speaker 2: and you were facing challenges and you wanted comfort, but
50:56
Speaker 2: you also wanted growth. But growth was the harder path,
51:01
Speaker 2: yet you chose it anyway. I am willing to bet,
51:07
Speaker 2: and I am being very conservative. Eighty percent of the
51:10
Speaker 2: audience did a hand raised inside themselves just now. So
51:15
Speaker 2: that is evidence that we do choose growth. The question
51:21
Speaker 2: is what are the elements when we choose comfort overgrowth?
51:27
Speaker 2: What creates that, What creates that in our neurobiology, what
51:32
Speaker 2: creates that in our psychology? What past events are we interpreting,
51:37
Speaker 2: and what's our belief system? Because when you are trying
51:41
Speaker 2: to help someone get to where they want to be
51:45
Speaker 2: as a facilitator, not the driver, or that you can't
51:49
Speaker 2: afford well, people just I mean, that's the bottom line.
51:54
Speaker 2: You're not going to get through to everyone, nor should
51:56
Speaker 2: you ever have that expectation. But if you can identify
52:01
Speaker 2: with that person meaning evoking not provoking in the conversation,
52:07
Speaker 2: you might be able to shed some light on what
52:10
Speaker 2: the actual factors are that's causing someone to choose comfort
52:15
Speaker 2: over growth. I know that when growth has been really,
52:18
Speaker 2: really hard in my life. There are times when I
52:21
Speaker 2: have chose comfort and doing nothing, and then there are
52:24
Speaker 2: times when I chose growth even though it was the
52:27
Speaker 2: much harder path. There's there's either either I have multiple personalities,
52:32
Speaker 2: which I probably do, or there were different factors at play.
52:36
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
52:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And I'm not suggesting at all
52:40
Speaker 1: that people constantly choose growth or constantly choose comfort. I
52:44
Speaker 1: think when you say people do choose growth, I'm going
52:47
Speaker 1: to say sometimes, I'm going to go yes sometimes and
52:53
Speaker 1: for many people rarely. I think many people are hardwired
52:59
Speaker 1: for comfort and obsessed with comfort, and obsessed with convenience
53:04
Speaker 1: and shortcuts and quick fixes and magic pills, which is
53:08
Speaker 1: why all of that shit sells so vastly, because people
53:13
Speaker 1: want the reward without the work, without the discomfort, without
53:16
Speaker 1: the pain. If they didn't want that, all of those
53:18
Speaker 1: things wouldn't sell. But you are correct in that people
53:23
Speaker 1: do choose growth over comfort. But the asterisks is, you know,
53:28
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes some people, But I think the more important
53:33
Speaker 1: parts So I agree with you, but I think with
53:36
Speaker 1: an asterisk, but I think the more important part of
53:39
Speaker 1: this is we all have the potential to do the
53:43
Speaker 1: hard thing, like you know you think about I've spoken
53:47
Speaker 1: about this many times before, but even say Johnny, who
53:50
Speaker 1: you know, Johnny, my friend that got blown up, who's
53:52
Speaker 1: you know? Traumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury. You know,
53:57
Speaker 1: when he had his accident, he couldn't get up the
54:00
Speaker 1: next day. Will He was in a coma for over
54:01
Speaker 1: a month, so he didn't get up on any days
54:03
Speaker 1: for quite a while, and he was going to be
54:06
Speaker 1: a quadriplegic allegedly, but he couldn't wake up. When he
54:10
Speaker 1: eventually he woke up and said, you know what, I'm
54:12
Speaker 1: not going to do traumatic brain injury and spinal corps.
54:15
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. Fuck it, I'll do
54:16
Speaker 1: it Monday. Like you just have to cope. Like there
54:18
Speaker 1: are certain things when you don't have the option of
54:23
Speaker 1: choosing comfort because something profound has happened in your world.
54:28
Speaker 1: So you have two options, the fucking horrible option or
54:33
Speaker 1: the slightly more horrible option. It's like the comfort is
54:37
Speaker 1: not one of the options in this moment in time.
54:40
Speaker 1: And so and of course the vast majority of people
54:45
Speaker 1: get through it, like they do it. They step up
54:48
Speaker 1: because well, there's no quick, easy, fun, painless kind of option.
54:53
Speaker 1: And I you know, that encourages me regarding people's potential.
54:58
Speaker 1: But I just think that we and I'm generalizing and
55:01
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about everyone, of course, but we are
55:05
Speaker 1: well I can I live in Australia, so I'm going
55:08
Speaker 1: to speak not for Australia, but what I see, which
55:13
Speaker 1: is we are a country and a culture which is
55:17
Speaker 1: in part obsessed with convenience and shortcuts and quick fixes
55:22
Speaker 1: and comfort and you know, and this for a range
55:26
Speaker 1: of reasons, in my opinion, is so debilitating and so
55:32
Speaker 1: crippling to people's potential and resilience and personal power. Steps down,
55:37
Speaker 1: off soapbox.
55:40
Speaker 2: Have you ever read the book The One Minute Manager
55:43
Speaker 2: by Can Blanchet one.
55:45
Speaker 1: Hundred years ago? That was that a little blue book?
55:49
Speaker 2: No, it's a way right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
55:53
Speaker 2: I remember. And he was one of the pioneers behind
55:59
Speaker 2: feeble story form business books. Martin Rooney, who you've had
56:05
Speaker 2: on the show, he writes much more extensive. I mean,
56:08
Speaker 2: he's actually he writes adventure stories. Now, he writes adventure novels.
56:14
Speaker 2: He's a brilliant writer. But he's written a few of
56:18
Speaker 2: these fable type of business books and he's spectacular. But
56:23
Speaker 2: the first principle and the One Minute Manager was catch
56:26
Speaker 2: someone doing something right. And it's so there's some interesting
56:32
Speaker 2: research by a couple of guys, Robert Emmons and Michael McCullum.
56:39
Speaker 2: And Michael McCallum more so than Emmons, looks at gratitude
56:44
Speaker 2: from an evolutionary perspective, like why would nature select for
56:49
Speaker 2: gratitude in the first place, like why do we need it?
56:53
Speaker 2: And what he believes is if you if you have
56:56
Speaker 2: gratitude about something, and let's say that gratitude is connected
57:01
Speaker 2: to a person. Let's say I feel very grateful because
57:06
Speaker 2: you did something specifically, maybe it was for me or
57:09
Speaker 2: for someone I cared about. What am I now likely
57:12
Speaker 2: to do? I'm likely to go to you and say, oh,
57:17
Speaker 2: my goodness, Craig, I'm so grateful and tell you exactly
57:21
Speaker 2: why I'm grateful for you. Yeah, so that hasn't a
57:26
Speaker 2: profound effect on your neurobiology. You feel amazing, your stress
57:32
Speaker 2: hormone levels drop. That's something you want more of. So
57:37
Speaker 2: a couple of things start to happen. One, you want
57:43
Speaker 2: to experience stuff like that more of the time. So
57:47
Speaker 2: let's say you have a team, or let's say you
57:49
Speaker 2: live in a family and people make a habit of
57:51
Speaker 2: doing that and you start hearing some of the same
57:55
Speaker 2: things from different people. What are you now motivated to
57:59
Speaker 2: go out and do.
58:02
Speaker 1: If I hear similar feedback from people?
58:05
Speaker 2: M hm.
58:07
Speaker 1: Me, personally, I'd probably do something about it. I'd probably
58:10
Speaker 1: act on their advice so they.
58:12
Speaker 2: Do more of it. Yeah, they just gave you a
58:15
Speaker 2: reputation to live up to. So, now how do you
58:19
Speaker 2: feel about me? Because I'm someone who's shed light on
58:24
Speaker 2: this great attribute that you have or an area of competence.
58:27
Speaker 2: You feel great about me. I feel great about you.
58:29
Speaker 2: So what we're doing is we're building reciprocity and pro
58:33
Speaker 2: social behaviors that act as vicarious experiences, right because other
58:39
Speaker 2: people in our family or our circle of friends sees
58:43
Speaker 2: this public recognition and it's like, oh, okay, I understand this.
58:48
Speaker 2: You know I will be rewarded for these types of behaviors.
58:52
Speaker 2: So you're getting that, and now you're also getting social persuasion.
58:57
Speaker 2: So like if you look at social cognitive theory out
59:00
Speaker 2: at Bendura, that's like two that's two primary elements of
59:05
Speaker 2: what it takes to elicit behavior change. So you start
59:10
Speaker 2: to create this within all of your subcultures and it's
59:14
Speaker 2: really important. So people want to and you're also building
59:19
Speaker 2: a sense of agency in people because I believe a
59:22
Speaker 2: lot of times when people are like, Okay, I'm going
59:24
Speaker 2: to choose comfort overgrowth, it might be linked to I
59:28
Speaker 2: don't believe I'm capable, So why would I invest energy
59:33
Speaker 2: in doing something that has a physical, emotional psychological cost
59:37
Speaker 2: if I don't believe that I have any agency in
59:41
Speaker 2: bringing about the outcomes or the experience that motivates me
59:45
Speaker 2: tackling discomfort in the first place. So the more I
59:48
Speaker 2: start to point out things, I elevate self efficacy because
59:51
Speaker 2: if you agree to it, oh yeah, I did do that,
59:53
Speaker 2: that's irrefutable evidence in your ability. So you're creating a
59:58
Speaker 2: culture not only a rapport of gratitude or reciprocity of
1:00:02
Speaker 2: a vicarious experiences and of social persuasion. You're creating a
1:00:08
Speaker 2: culture of self efficacy. And I think that's it's one
1:00:14
Speaker 2: of these things that is easy to do, and it
1:00:19
Speaker 2: has profound effects on members of whatever your group is,
1:00:24
Speaker 2: the people at the office, the people in your household,
1:00:27
Speaker 2: the people you hang out with at the pub every
1:00:29
Speaker 2: Tuesday night.
1:00:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we've got to wind up. But I've got
1:00:33
Speaker 1: one brief question for you. So you've been in a
1:00:35
Speaker 1: leadership position a lot, and you teach, and you try
1:00:38
Speaker 1: and your coach. What's one red flag where you just
1:00:43
Speaker 1: are not going to give somebody feedback where you go.
1:00:46
Speaker 1: I'm just going to hit the pause button here.
1:00:48
Speaker 2: Mmm, okay, wow, there are multiple but what pops into
1:00:52
Speaker 2: my mind is where somebody believes that they are are
1:01:00
Speaker 2: innately more special than the rest of the team, when
1:01:03
Speaker 2: they feel that they are more deserving or they stand
1:01:06
Speaker 2: out in a certain way without a reasonable demonstration. So
1:01:12
Speaker 2: let me use the gym analogy. If you do post
1:01:17
Speaker 2: rehabilitation training and you think, well, I deserve special recognition
1:01:20
Speaker 2: for post rehab you know, well, yeah, you kind of do.
1:01:24
Speaker 2: If you're the only person on the team that does
1:01:26
Speaker 2: that and you do it, well, you deserve recognition for that.
1:01:31
Speaker 2: But if you're appraising yourself based on an innate characteristic
1:01:36
Speaker 2: and not a demonstratable area of performance or skill set,
1:01:41
Speaker 2: I have no patience for that level of entitlement.
1:01:46
Speaker 1: Number two, why would you not give them feedback?
1:01:50
Speaker 2: Well?
1:01:50
Speaker 1: I would, Oh you would. No, I said, what's a
1:01:53
Speaker 1: red flag where you would not give someone feedback? No?
1:01:56
Speaker 2: I thought you said, what's a oh, Jase, talk about
1:01:59
Speaker 2: the list an guy. I'm going to chalk this up
1:02:01
Speaker 2: to age and and and like like century failure here,
1:02:05
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I'm thinking it's a red flag with an employee.
1:02:11
Speaker 1: No, no, no, not and not an employee just not Jim,
1:02:14
Speaker 1: not employee, not just just a human just you like
1:02:18
Speaker 1: where where you could give someone like insight wisdom feedback,
1:02:23
Speaker 1: but there's a red flag that tells you not to.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: What is that red flag?
1:02:27
Speaker 2: One is, yeah, one is a history of being completely
1:02:32
Speaker 2: unreceptive and not open. You're an individual that it's never
1:02:36
Speaker 2: your fault, you never do anything wrong, you never admit
1:02:40
Speaker 2: to error, you never admit to fault. It's always somebody else,
1:02:44
Speaker 2: and it's just it's just gonna be an exercise in futility.
1:02:48
Speaker 2: Someone who has decided in advance that they are completely
1:02:53
Speaker 2: unwilling or like unrequired to take feedback. That person's just
1:03:00
Speaker 2: not coachable. Second thing is emotional arousal, like what has
1:03:07
Speaker 2: just occurred? What are you giving feedback on? When did
1:03:11
Speaker 2: it happen? Because sometimes, you know, people say, oh, you
1:03:14
Speaker 2: want to give feedback as soon as possible. You know
1:03:17
Speaker 2: what if what if somebody made a series of errors
1:03:20
Speaker 2: and they just blew a presentation in front of an
1:03:24
Speaker 2: entire room and the thing they hate the most is presenting.
1:03:29
Speaker 2: Now is probably not the time. How do you think
1:03:31
Speaker 2: that person's feeling. First of all, their their prefrontal cortex
1:03:36
Speaker 2: is probably not even able to assimilate and utilize any feedback.
1:03:42
Speaker 2: Number two, they're they're looking at it through a different
1:03:45
Speaker 2: emotional lens. Maybe maybe tomorrow, maybe maybe tonight. You know,
1:03:50
Speaker 2: go have yourself a cup of tea, grab a glass
1:03:53
Speaker 2: of wine, whatever your beverage choice is. Don't think about this.
1:03:59
Speaker 2: Every of things cool. Let's talk about this in the morning.
1:04:03
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, perfect mate. Where can people connect with you?
1:04:08
Speaker 1: Where can they listen to you?
1:04:10
Speaker 2: I I am usually on the corner of Park Boulevard
1:04:14
Speaker 2: and well, wait, that sounds horrible, a little creepy, doesn't, doesn't. Yeah, well, okay,
1:04:25
Speaker 2: the economy has not gotten that difficult yet.
1:04:28
Speaker 1: You know what I'm doing right now, I'm just writing
1:04:30
Speaker 1: down a little note to myself for a potential whiteboard.
1:04:34
Speaker 1: I'm prompted by you, and it's going to say something
1:04:37
Speaker 1: like my AMIG diligious hijacked my prefrontal cortex.
1:04:41
Speaker 2: So thanks, something is really wrong with me. Tonight, when
1:04:45
Speaker 2: you had said, oh, I'm getting an idea for a whiteboard,
1:04:49
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, good for you. You're going to
1:04:50
Speaker 2: bring a weight board, like, like right on it. Join
1:04:52
Speaker 2: the podcast. That's interesting. Oh boy, Bobby, Bobby.
1:04:57
Speaker 1: Where can people connect with you?
1:04:59
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm on, I'm on, I'm on like LinkedIn and uh,
1:05:03
Speaker 2: Robert Capuccio dot com. I'm on the self help antidote
1:05:07
Speaker 2: dot com. You know, every once in a while do
1:05:10
Speaker 2: track my emails.
1:05:11
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah cool, All right, buddy, we appreciate you.
1:05:15
Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye fair but yeah, have a good night,
1:05:18
Speaker 1: Have a good night over there in the weird world
1:05:21
Speaker 1: of America.
1:05:22
Speaker 2: Name everybody,