Latest / The Psychology of Relationships / Quieting the Clock: Letting Go of Timeline Anxiety in Love & Life w/ Beth Gulotta

Transcript

Quieting the Clock: Letting Go of Timeline Anxiety in Love & Life w/ Beth Gulotta · The Psychology of Relationships

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Julie Crafchick, and I'm U.A.
0:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Xu.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the psychology of relationships.
0:07
[SPEAKER_03]: We're constantly told there's a right time for everything.
0:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Career milestones finding love, getting married, having kids, but the reality is that life rarely follows a neat, predictable timeline.
0:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And as we get older, those timelines can feel even more urgent, especially when it comes to fertility and the biological clock.
0:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Psychology shows that the pressure to follow societal timelines can increase stress, anxiety, and decision-making that isn't aligned with what we truly want.
0:39
[SPEAKER_03]: While biological realities do matter, research also shows that people who meet partners later in life often bring more self-knowledge, emotional maturity, and relational skills to their relationships, which can make them stronger, more fulfilling, and more intentional.
0:55
[SPEAKER_03]: In this episode, we're joined by Beth Gulada, therapist and advocate for untraditional life paths to talk about how to quiet the societal clock while still honoring real biological timelines.
1:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Drawing for her own professional expertise in her own experience,
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[SPEAKER_03]: meeting her partner, build a career, and having children outside conventional expectations.
1:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Best shares practical strategies for navigating fertility options, challenging myths about age and timing, and embracing a later and life paths a love that can actually be in advantage.
1:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Whether you're looking to take that next step in your relationship, or your single and stressing, or just reconsidering what on-time really means.
1:39
[SPEAKER_03]: This conversation offers a roadmap for reclaiming choice, and both your personal and romantic life.
1:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Remember to subscribe to Psychology of Relationships on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
1:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And if this episode helps you rethink timelines and societal pressure, we'd love a rating or review.
1:59
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
2:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy.
2:07
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so nice to see you.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, like we're saying, old friends, it's so nice to be here and to be on the other side.
2:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I just had you ladies on my podcast, excited for that to go live.
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we get to ask you all the questions.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
2:23
[SPEAKER_03]: All the stuff that we've been dying to ask because this is a hot topic.
2:28
[SPEAKER_03]: quieting the clock that's your podcast, your area of expertise and we know you have your own experiences here for your clients, you a and I both have struggled with this from time to time so we're excited to get into it.
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It is such a hot topic and I was having this conversation with someone earlier this week like we're all feeling it in some way, like I'm not sure the timelines and so it's exciting to have platforms now where we're like openly talking about that
2:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell us about your story.
2:58
[SPEAKER_01]: How were you inspired to really hone in on this topic?
3:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
3:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's so funny.
3:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I get this question a lot.
3:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this question because I never knew that this would be a podcast.
3:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think some of the most amazing things in life are born out of our own journeys and experiences.
3:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's really beautiful to kind of do something with that and then pay it forward.
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I would always say it was kind of someone that never followed the blueprint or the path we're told to take.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I did do college, but after college, I moved to Europe.
3:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And so while some of my other classmates were like jumping into their careers or going on to a master's because they were clear on what they wanted to do, I was like off living in Europe.
3:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So even then that kind of set me behind as we, you know, that's a narrative a lot of, you know, my clients have used I've used other women and and men too that I've talked to like when they're we're in this comparative perspective and I came home I guess I was like a year behind everyone was kind of a jump of things a lot of friends already knew what they wanted.
3:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea what I wanted to do so.
3:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I did what I thought I should kind of told and again, the blueprint and I went into finance and I was miserable in that and this started this journey on discovery of what I wanted to do and it took many, many years and many, many masters to find therapy and mental health counseling and I am I'm mental health counselor, I own a group practice in New York City.
4:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I hit my early 30s and I had a breakup, you know, I had a breakup with someone that I thought that I would marry and have a family with and part of that relationship came a large group of other couples.
4:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is these were all my friends.
4:33
[SPEAKER_00]: This is my social circle and that relationship ended and I was single in my early 30s and I'm watching now all of these friends do all of the things that we should do at the time that we should do them and get engaged
4:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Looking around, I'm only one single in my early 30s, and so that started really my journey of feeling behind, feeling like I'm running out of time, kind of misaligned with like the societal milestones of when I'm supposed to do things and to make it wrap it up, make it short, I met my partner at 34, which is considered late, and I had a son at 40, I'm trying to have another child at 43.
5:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
5:10
[SPEAKER_00]: if you kind of compare my ages to societal timelines they don't line up and this is all the things I want to dismantle because it didn't align, it created a lot of judgment, self-judgment, external judgment, comparison, sadness, grief, horrible feelings.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like, oh yay, I'm single at 34, oh yay, but I'm not pregnant, you know, it doesn't, you know, when we hear to the old timelines and narratives, it just, it really often doesn't feel very good.
5:38
[SPEAKER_03]: So where do you think this pressure comes from?
5:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Like part of it is obviously the biological clock and we'll get into that later in this combo.
5:45
[SPEAKER_03]: But even outside of that, I think there is a lot of self-induced pressure of like, by 30, I need to have this figured out.
5:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And now we see people going to like, by 40, I need to have it figured out because maybe 30 wasn't necessarily realistic or things didn't fall into place.
6:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Like where does this come from?
6:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny.
6:02
[SPEAKER_00]: We have these really ridiculous constructs of like what does it even mean to figure it out and like what are we trying to figure out and I saw this funny meme the other day.
6:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like does anyone know what we're doing actually does anyone know like and that's a thing and such an idea that there's like an end goal or there's a
6:20
[SPEAKER_00]: arrival to some life is constantly involving.
6:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So like I think even that's a framework we need to dismantle it like there's something to figure out.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think there is things to figure out.
6:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we need to figure out how to be happy, how to be present, how to be in acceptance, you know, to be in joy, to be in gratitude.
6:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's figure out that.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's generational, it's cultural, like these are narratives, constructs, and blueprints that are passed down.
6:45
[SPEAKER_00]: that are ingrained in the environments that we grow up in and religious we grow up in and cultures we grow up in.
6:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't even realize that we're picking up these ideas of how we should live our lives and we hold it and we believe it and we live our lives by it until we're like a little bit older, we're kind of like, well wait, this is not making me happy.
7:03
[SPEAKER_01]: In your experience with the clients that you've
7:06
[SPEAKER_01]: spoken to about this pressure that people are feeling.
7:10
[SPEAKER_01]: What percentage do you think is it self-induced?
7:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And what percentage is it actual external pressure?
7:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, because when I think about the pressure I felt, I would say 80% of it was probably self-induced.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the question to ask is, like, why is it self-induced?
7:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, are those parameters really set by yourself truly by yourself or are they informed by external messages?
7:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what happens is we take the external messaging and we take ownership of that as our own desires.
7:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think what happens is these external messages, narratives, things that are passed down, blue prints,
7:43
[SPEAKER_00]: become ingrained in us that we own them to be true to what we really want.
7:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So then from there, we pick up the pressure because I've been told since I'm five that I should get married by 26, 26 rolls around.
7:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not married.
7:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, why am I married?
7:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my fault.
7:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It's wrong with me.
7:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't meet anybody.
7:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's tricky.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we have to be really careful.
8:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's something I work with my clients on.
8:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like,
8:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, who is telling you that's the goal because if you did authentically your own goal Okay, let's work with that But I think that's where we get in trouble a little bit is because we don't differentiate like whose voice is this?
8:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Who is telling me that I should do this?
8:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it really true to what I actually want and it can be really scary thing to deviate from things we're told we should do?
8:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I know personally for me.
8:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll never forget this moment.
8:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I was in high school and you know this teacher was like if you want to make money You go into finance
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that then I took that on as my own story of like I need to go into finance.
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So you gotta be really, really careful and get really, really clear on what we're saying to ourselves and whose voice it actually is.
8:46
[SPEAKER_03]: I could see that.
8:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Like the line is so murky because I think we think of like external pressures like our parents telling us this or someone like explicitly saying, but what I'm hearing from you is it's all the influences that are coming at us,
9:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and we're bombarded with it now, especially with social media.
9:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We're bombarded with it.
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You can open that app and see somebody getting married, engaged, pregnant, all of these things.
9:12
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, I should have that too, and you're not like, well, do I even want that?
9:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And it takes a lot of work to kind of pause and be reflective of like, I don't...
9:21
[SPEAKER_00]: really want that right now in my life.
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I enjoy being single.
9:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm not ready to be engaged.
9:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not ready to do.
9:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the person I want to be at to invite in a relationship.
9:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I just we so easily get caught up in like what we think we should have and seeing other people have it and saying I should have it too.
9:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I don't have it yet, it's something's wrong with me.
9:39
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I find perplexing is looking at this from a sociological standpoint, right?
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I come from a Chinese culture, I was born in China, where the bones are communists, and you follow the masses.
9:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that context, everybody has a clock because it's the same clock, and you just follow the same timeline.
9:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I moved to the U.S., I thought,
9:58
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a culture that praises individuality, independence, not following the masses being unique and they're still a clock that's imposed on everybody and it feels like everybody still wants to follow the masses and not be left behind.
10:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this just a natural way of being human, like, are we just biologically wired that way?
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I do.
10:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're moving in the right directions where there's different narratives happening.
10:26
[SPEAKER_00]: There's questioning of old narratives and constructs.
10:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think, you know, everything is so generational and passed on.
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is so completely ingrained.
10:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's going to take a little bit more time to undo and relearn some new narratives and be more accepting of other
10:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting because there is always I think this internal struggle of like, yeah, I'm cool with where I'm at, I like accept where I'm at, but oh God, like, what am I going to meet somebody?
10:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's more work to be done.
10:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're moving in the right direction, but yeah, I think we're hardwired to feel these things.
10:57
[SPEAKER_03]: So when clients come to you and they feel like I'm running out of time, I'm hearing that clock tick.
11:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful for my work.
11:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful to be walk alongside, you know, my clients that are doing this work and I first I validate.
11:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a very real emotion.
11:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very valid emotion.
11:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one that I felt and it's one that will pop up always and that's where it's important to pause and kind of be reflective.
11:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So first thing I do would validate.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Depending on sort of the nature of the relationship, I'll see itself disclosure is appropriate and we're in share kind of where I felt like that and where life has led me.
11:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We try to decipher, like I was saying earlier, who voices this, who's determining the timeline.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I offer, I try to offer some reassurance.
11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what happens a lot, again, I think there's also this humanistic tendency to compare.
11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: and I try to we work with comparison and why are we comparing and what are we comparing to and what is that bringing up for you.
12:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of work to do sort of kind of untangle like why are you feeling that way.
12:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when we do all of that maybe we move to let's build out a time frame that's really authentic to you.
12:12
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing about life just happens.
12:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean there's we can have a timeline for things
12:17
[SPEAKER_00]: wouldn't be amazing if we could decide the timing of everything.
12:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we really can't.
12:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's also an exploration of the need to control and the need to know and how do we get comfortable and uncertainty?
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we get curious about uncertainty?
12:30
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we get excited about uncertainty?
12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's so much we just can't plan for and we can't control and we can't know and some of the work is getting comfortable in that and maybe even beyond that getting excited about that.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And you talked about comparing, this is something that everyone's guilty of, especially with social media these days.
12:49
[SPEAKER_01]: How does one start quieting that inner voice that keeps saying?
12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you're not enough, or you're not as good as this person?
12:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, our brain is naturally wired to go that way.
13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, they're not good enough, narrative is so probably deep-rooted in, you know, family construct, family dynamics, trauma, experiences, like that's, you know,
13:09
[SPEAKER_00]: new onston and very layered and that comes from somewhere and believing that we're not going enough, you know, and that's the beauty of being in therapy.
13:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm obviously huge proponent for therapy is having someone like walk alongside and help unpack some of that.
13:22
[SPEAKER_00]: How to move away from comparison.
13:24
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of ways you can do that.
13:26
[SPEAKER_00]: One is
13:27
[SPEAKER_00]: a gratitude practice, getting really, really grateful for what you have now.
13:31
[SPEAKER_00]: We have such a hard time being in gratitude for what we have versus being in sadness for what we don't.
13:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was definitely, you know, guilty of that, you know, and before meeting my partner Rob, I was definitely, you know, more focused on, I don't have a partner versus, oh my god, I have this business.
13:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, I have this one bedroom condo.
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, I have this flexibility
13:56
[SPEAKER_00]: shifting and really putting some focus of like what do I have?
13:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We get so stuck on what we don't.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think a gratitude practice is amazing for that.
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Another thing I try to encourage my clients to do is like often we compare like one part of the puzzle versus the whole puzzle.
14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example,
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: someone is in a relationship and I'm not.
14:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're just comparing like this person is in relationship.
14:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But maybe it's not a great relationship.
14:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they're unhappy in their job.
14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they don't have relationships with their families.
14:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're just taking one piece and being like, that is better than what I have.
14:28
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is we get so fixated on things like partnership, marriage, buying a home as the markers for success, where it's just like, let's broaden the view.
14:38
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many of the things that like make us successful.
14:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I just had this conversation actually with a friend of mine yesterday about the light comparing one piece of the puzzle versus the whole things.
14:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, our minds go there and I think like another piece too is like this quieting the clock doesn't stop once you find a partner.
14:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like in a way it's actually like accentuated for me once I did find a partner because I Yeah, I think I had this narrative before that like okay I am gonna meet someone a little later in life because like I was already in my mid-30s But when that happens everything moves fast because you're older
15:14
[SPEAKER_03]: And then when that wasn't happening, even though it felt good in many ways, but it wasn't necessarily like this rapid speed of things happening, I started to be like, one, I'm running out of time, but then also like, is there something wrong that we're not moving up the slight big speed?
15:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
15:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's that scenario of the pops up too.
15:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what's wrong with me or what's wrong that I don't have XYZ or whatever it is.
15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's also in our nature to move the Gulf post right to now we meet the partner.
15:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So when's the ring.
15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And now that we have the ring, when's the baby and we have the baby ones right.
15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that's the beauty of being in gratitude and presents is because you can appreciate what you have right now.
15:54
[SPEAKER_00]: While also like wanting those things, this is not to say like we don't aspire for those things, or we don't want those things that they're truly what we want.
16:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But we can't get too stuck in that and not be really ingratitude for what we have right now.
16:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And kind of related to that, because we put up a poll
16:10
[SPEAKER_01]: on our Instagram asking people what are their biggest fears, and so many people wrote, I'm afraid to be the last two.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I get's always, I'm afraid to be the last to get married and my friend group, I'm afraid to be the last to have kids in my friend group interesting.
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So many people feel left behind in that their friend group is moving forward and their life is stuck.
16:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do you say to someone like that?
16:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I want to me, I'm like a new friend, but
16:38
[SPEAKER_01]: is that really the solution?
16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that is part of the solution.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I found myself there too.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: What I've shared earlier, like getting out of this relationship in my early 30s, and my friend group, my social group was all these other couples and now that you know, had ended.
16:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I maintained some of those friendships but it was different.
16:55
[SPEAKER_00]: We did things as couples.
16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I did, I found a whole new friend group.
16:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, things we had talked about on the recent episode that came out was age gap friendships.
17:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And I found myself kind of in my 30s.
17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I was bartending in the city and I was hanging out with 20 something year old.
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But you have to like, all of that age.
17:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, for me, I kind of got hung up on that for a little bit, but I'm like, they're all in my life stage.
17:14
[SPEAKER_00]: They're all so well.
17:15
[SPEAKER_00]: They all are available to go out.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: They're cool.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: They're creative.
17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: They're smart.
17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like who cares how old they are.
17:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, sometimes it is a new social circle and friend group.
17:24
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is a lot of it is just shifting the narrative and shifting the perspective.
17:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what can be an amazing about being the last two.
17:32
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the new shifts I'm trying to do personally is like I'm going through this like secondary and fertility journey and it's been really really difficult and and you know life is going to bring up these moments like I get stuck in comparison seeing other people have their second child and that that comes up but I'm trying to look at things of like how is this happening for me yeah right so how is it happening for me that I'm last how is that benefiting me and I think trying to look at it through that lens can change.
17:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything can change the way you feel about it.
17:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like there's judgment when you say I mean, what does it mean to be the last two?
18:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what are you saying about yourself or what is it?
18:04
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you saying about being the last two that makes that scary?
18:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Like could that be exciting?
18:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Like oh, I'm not married yet.
18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still I'm gonna pop off to Paris like bye.
18:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about shifting the lens on it And I think some of those contracts still come back from these old blueprints is like what have we said about being the last to do that that makes it so scary?
18:22
[SPEAKER_03]: right, it's like they're sling wrong with you.
18:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think like for me personally, I definitely like one boys finding obviously new friends that were in my stage of life or not even new friends, but just going deeper with existing friends that were in that stage.
18:36
[SPEAKER_03]: But also I kind of let go of like caring if I was like the fifth or seventh wheel.
18:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think for a while I had like this thing like, oh, like maybe I don't want to go because of this and I'm like, who cares?
18:48
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, and you know now that I do have a partner, I'm still with these friends because I didn't like go of them But there was never like a gap of like not being with them.
18:57
[SPEAKER_03]: It was just like I learned to like not care
18:59
[SPEAKER_03]: at that point.
19:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I was like eventually I'll get there, eventually things will happen.
19:04
[SPEAKER_03]: For now this isn't defining like my friendship with them.
19:07
[SPEAKER_03]: And the reality was like the guys went off and did their own thing and us girls hung out anyways.
19:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's usually how to.
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, to validate that too, I know so many people feel that I felt that too.
19:17
[SPEAKER_00]: My sister who is, you know, divorced in and single again has felt that too of like Yeah, fifth wheel, sixth wheel.
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: the feeling emerges because we have judgment about being single and more sort of really grounded and like I'm in acceptance of where I am in my life.
19:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm grateful to be here because single for me means learning more about myself, more time with friends.
19:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you're probably less bothered by being around with couples because they're probably people you love, they're probably people you enjoy and like what's better than being in connection with people.
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's when we're in judgment of self or feeling that pressure that those experiences are changed for us.
19:52
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and like four years prior to that, that was not how I was.
19:56
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's why I've said this has a shift because I remember like I ended my most serious relationship outside of the one I'm currently in, right as like everyone was heading into like wedding season.
20:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Like all my friends were getting married.
20:09
[SPEAKER_03]: And of course, like I missed this person, but I think the biggest piece was like this feeling left behind.
20:15
[SPEAKER_03]: And like I remember talking to my therapist at the time, like I can't believe I'm going to like my younger
20:22
[SPEAKER_03]: And I am like the single one, and I'm going to all these weddings alone.
20:25
[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, no one is looking at you at like cocktail hour.
20:29
[SPEAKER_03]: They're like getting their drink.
20:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Like no one's judging you.
20:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So being single, but like in my head, I went there.
20:36
[SPEAKER_03]: So it did take that like acknowledging and accepting that this was a real pain, but then also being like realistic.
20:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Like your friends still like you.
20:44
[SPEAKER_03]: No everyone just wants to drink at the bar.
20:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Like no one cares, you know?
20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so real.
20:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even what you were saying, Beth, with your sister.
20:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, life is not linear.
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you may be the last in your friend.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wait, but we're taught it is.
20:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's like, you may be the last for this one particular thing now, but things could change in a few months or a few years.
21:05
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like, like, everything is temporary.
21:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So we don't have to feel like the status that we're in right now is being the last is forever.
21:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I had a great friend on the podcast as well.
21:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And she, similar stories to me, met her partner later, became a mother later, later than her whole friend group.
21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, we're still together, half my mindset of war.
21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right?
21:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's fluid, and that's your such a good point that life is not linear.
21:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so true, but we're taught that it is.
21:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what's kind of the learning we have to undo.
21:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know what anyone listening to think, all these things that we're saying are valid and come up with comparison or not wanting to be,
21:42
[SPEAKER_00]: those are all real and all valid.
21:45
[SPEAKER_00]: The work is not to get stuck there.
21:46
[SPEAKER_00]: We can acknowledge that.
21:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We can kind of understand and process an unpack why we're feeling that.
21:50
[SPEAKER_00]: What's coming up for us, but what I encourage everybody to do is don't get stuck in that because you miss out on so, so much.
21:58
[SPEAKER_03]: No, definitely.
21:59
[SPEAKER_03]: I do want to get into the actual biological clock though because I feel like we can ignore this because there is like some truth behind like the older you get.
22:09
[SPEAKER_03]: We always talk about it for women, but there are also studies about for men too, but we don't ever talk about like sperm declining and all of that.
22:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, that is a conversation we are not having and we need to be having because it is a reality.
22:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So the other piece too though is like I was talking to a friend of mine about this and she was saying how you know because I was expressing that like I do have these fears that I'm like now getting to old and all the stuff and she's like so many women that I've met like in my mom friend groups are like
22:39
[SPEAKER_03]: in their mid-40s having kids and like that is such a myth that that isn't possible and It's something that we've been told for so long that like once you hit 40 it's over So like what is your take on all of this and like yeah, I could see you have a lot to say
22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I was passionate about this topic before.
23:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm extremely even more passionate as I go through my second air infertility journey because I'm just continuing to learn so much and I think what is so hugely problematic is we're so misinformed and miseducated on our fertility health.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot of fear mongering when it comes to our fertility health and some of the narratives out there that are like, you know, 40 people will say 35 is the cliff.
23:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I know there are a lot of doctors in the fertility world that will disagree with me, but I got pregnant naturally at 39.
23:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying again at 43.
23:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I got pregnant naturally.
23:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I haven't shared this publicly, but I'll put out there.
23:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I got pregnant actually at 43 and fortunately ended in miscarriage, but yeah, it's still possible.
23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And the path to motherhood is so possible at any age because there's a million and one ways to do it.
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where again, life is not this one narrow lens.
23:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if we open up our perspective in vision, like if you really want motherhood, there's so many ways to do that.
23:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, we're told like there's just one path and it should be this path.
23:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And it should look like that.
23:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, there's a lot of debate around IVF and all of these things.
24:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But first and foremost, we are so misinformed and we're so miseducated on our fertility health.
24:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So the biological clock, it is a real thing.
24:12
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a reality to like, a quality declining at a certain age.
24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's 35.
24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and this is tricky because as a therapist, I've seen this come up from my clients.
24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of fear in going to do that, right?
24:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Because no one wants to go and hear something, you know, is wrong.
24:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But
24:27
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't know, there can be no plan, and I've had guests on here, and I've had clients that they've went, and they didn't get great news, but then they were able to spring into action.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So you never want to arrive there too late.
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first thing I encourage everybody to do is just understand where you're at in your fertility health, and then understand your options.
24:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like freezing is obviously an option.
24:47
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also many ways through diet and lifestyle.
24:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I know fertility doctors will disagree, but I don't agree.
24:53
[SPEAKER_00]: that we can do to be helping like not just our fertility health, but our overall health, but you know, if we're talking about biological clock, there's things that we can do.
25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: There's also so many stories out there that like women were trying to conceive through IVF for years.
25:06
[SPEAKER_00]: They went to a holistic functional medicine doctor and they were pregnant in like six months.
25:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So we just need to be more informed.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to be equipped and resource with what our options are.
25:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what are my increasing options?
25:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Where am I financially to afford this?
25:21
[SPEAKER_00]: and the education on it needs to be way, way, way, way better.
25:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, there's platforms and conversations happening now.
25:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a real thing and I think if you are considering motherhood and you want that it's kind of our responsibility to go out there and get the information on it.
25:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But the cliff is not 35.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The cliff is not 40.
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we do have time and we do have options.
25:42
[SPEAKER_01]: What about there's a clock with getting pregnant, but there's also a clock with like being an older parent.
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're like nearing retirement age when the kid goes off to college.
25:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:54
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you get over that psychological shift of like, oh, I don't want to be an older parent?
26:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think again, it's a very valid thought.
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I think about that all the time.
26:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't change my circumstances.
26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's I had my son at 40.
26:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I am doing the mental math constantly, okay, I'll be 60.
26:11
[SPEAKER_00]: When he's 20, I'll be this age.
26:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, can I see grandchildren?
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way I shift now is like, I am just going to keep myself as healthy as possible to be as around as long as possible with my son.
26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But for sure, I think about that a lot.
26:24
[SPEAKER_00]: However, is there a immense amount of benefit to being an older mother?
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: absolutely like absolutely I am stronger in my sense of self.
26:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I am more patient.
26:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I am more grounded.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I am financially more stable to be able to provide for my son and do things like swimming and soccer and you know there for me was so much angst about being an older mom or maybe not being a mom and then I have him at 40 and I think this is happens with most things is like when we meet the
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: when we have the baby later it's like oh this makes sense now.
26:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I know in my soul that I am I much much much younger mother being a mom at 40.
27:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I was going to say that I've read studies about this of like just your emotional capacity being better as you get older and
27:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god, just being aware, like I feel like if I had a child like 20, I would not be aware of like how my actions would like impact their future self in, you know, attachment and all the stuff that now play such a role as an adult and being aware of that, can I, I mean, I'm not a parent yet.
27:29
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't want to preemptively say this, but I, I feel like I would go in like being more conscious of what I'm doing, where in the past I would not have.
27:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, yeah, I mean, we're just more resource.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We're more equipped.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We're more hopefully, right?
27:45
[SPEAKER_00]: We're more clear on who we are, what we value.
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, like a larger emotional capacity, and that only benefits our children, and you know, people do it wonderfully at younger ages, but for me specifically, like, yeah, I was trying to build a business at 34.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I can imagine I couldn't give my son what I give him now if I was trying to do those things simultaneously.
28:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I
28:05
[SPEAKER_00]: With anything, I think motherhood, parenthood, partnership.
28:09
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a value to these things happening later in life.
28:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so grateful.
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: My only regret is I didn't live in that gratitude before when I was single or it was just Robin eye.
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in their moments that I got to stuck on what I didn't have because it all worked out beautifully, like better than I.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: could imagine I know and I know that's hard for people to hear when they're still in it and I'm on the other side of it but also like you know I'm in it again wondering when I'll have this second child and I'm really working hard to switch like the timing is going to be perfect like it's not meant yet this isn't happening to me it's happening for me I've learned so much more about my health and changes I've had to make for my health and overall like well-being that are just going to benefit me for a lifetime so it's a lot of just perspective mindset shift.
28:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm glad that we took that deviation, because I think it's a problem, but I do want to hear some of the more tactical things that you can be doing.
29:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, egg freezing is one.
29:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think there's a lot of opinions on that.
29:08
[SPEAKER_03]: I did for transparency.
29:10
[SPEAKER_03]: I did freeze my eggs.
29:12
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a big part of it, though, was that I did have my company pay a substantial part of that, and the reality, too, that I need to hold on to, is like, while it's
29:22
[SPEAKER_03]: nice that I have this option to lean on.
29:25
[SPEAKER_03]: I hate when people say it's an insurance policy, because like it's never a guarantee.
29:30
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not like a big fan of that language.
29:32
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
29:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Some curious like you're a take and then also like you start to say like there's other holistic ways and obviously adoption and other methods, but curious like what those are for more tactical.
29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing I want to say about the financial piece first is that there's a lot more options now to help finance this.
29:50
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of it.
29:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, when I was doing it, it was really either like a medical loan or credit card.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't have the money at the time to do it.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I did take out like no interest credit card.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: There are more options.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: There's more like sort of boutiquey places that have like payment plans or I think there's a company that does like, if you don't need a certain amount of your eggs, so just exploring those options.
30:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Another thing is you can advocate if you're at a company that doesn't cover it, you can start advocating with them to add that to an insurance policies.
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it will.
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: maybe open a enrollment, maybe over for a lot of places, but if it's not, get in with HR and say we need to be adding this.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of companies are adding it and I think a lot of women are looking for that option when they look for jobs.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So companies are going to have to add it to stay competitive.
30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So if your company doesn't have it, you can advocate for that.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think this conversation is happening in a way that informs younger women.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So it could be something that like maybe you're
30:47
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for me, and I never thought I would have to do this.
30:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I wasn't saving for that.
30:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like saving to buy a condo.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think some proactive planning for younger women that are hearing this conversations could be really, really helpful.
30:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's just a very personal decision for me.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It was worth it to go into debt.
31:02
[SPEAKER_00]: over it.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And that might just be what it is for people.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of options outside of a financing, of course, there's a freezing.
31:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, one question that was a guest head is shared was asked to her and a consultation was, how many children do you want to have?
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was an amazing question because that wasn't posed to me and so being realistic of like,
31:22
[SPEAKER_00]: if you want more in the one child that would determine maybe how many rounds you do or how many eggs you're comfortable with and so that's something to really consider to be informed on you know it really isn't 100% full proof insurance plan someone in thaw their eggs and none of them work
31:38
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no guarantees in that what's Moon makes it so scary, too, is there's these unknowns in these uncertainties and it's a huge investment financially and physically and mentally and emotionally what kind of what's the final decision for me because even after my console I was like so overwhelmed I didn't have the money I'm like, what's the point?
31:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I sat with it.
31:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I don't want to regret not trying.
31:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to turn around, be like, why didn't I do this?
32:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So whether at least I knew I tried.
32:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Beyond that, there's donors.
32:06
[SPEAKER_00]: There's embryo adoption.
32:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There's adoption.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I say earlier, there's so many paths to motherhood.
32:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's not just one.
32:15
[SPEAKER_00]: There's there are so many.
32:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's the work to sort of open up your vision to it looking different.
32:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've had so many amazing guests on that have done motherhood on their own through sperm donor.
32:26
[SPEAKER_00]: They've done egg donation.
32:28
[SPEAKER_00]: embryo adoption and they're amazingly happy.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just about kind of opening up their vision to what their path to motherhood would look like.
32:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, we're sold sort of it's only one path.
32:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And we get stuck that it has to look that way.
32:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's stuckness on one way of something going is doesn't serve us.
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's endless option.
32:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's just, you know, being informed, being educated on what those options are.
32:51
[SPEAKER_03]: We actually have a program called Finding Your Person, where it's like helping you meet the person that you'll end up being with.
32:57
[SPEAKER_03]: And we had someone come out of it and they were like, I actually learned from this that I wanna have a child on my own.
33:05
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm gonna go down that path.
33:06
[SPEAKER_03]: And we were like, this was a success then.
33:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it didn't necessarily go down that traditional path, but the fact that that awareness came from the program was incredible to us.
33:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
33:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So much I love sort of doing the work and being reflective and getting really clear on what your own authentic vision is.
33:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is so amazing.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think more of us should be doing that.
33:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And for a lot of women like, you know, single motherhood by choice is such a beautiful beautiful thing.
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And parenting with someone else is hard, like it's hard.
33:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not easy.
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you don't have a soul decision-making.
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to consult.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: You might have different styles and I love that story because it really is about bringing awareness to what is your authentic journey that is so true to you.
33:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And related to that, if people are having a hard time deciphering between what's their voice and what is society telling them to do, obviously you have this course that helped this person find clarity.
34:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But what are some ways that you've told your clients to really understand whose voice is it?
34:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I think having a therapist help you do that is so helpful.
34:08
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you don't have the therapist, there's lots of ways you can do that.
34:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's meditation, mindfulness.
34:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think what's problematic is we live in such a hustle culture and we're so distracted all the time.
34:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We're so inundated with like information overload all the time that we can't hear our own voice.
34:25
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just hearing all this input that's coming at us like 24-7.
34:28
[SPEAKER_00]: If we're not choosing this, slow down and listen and so.
34:32
[SPEAKER_00]: creating a space where there's no distraction where you can get quiet with yourself, you know there's amazing meditation prompts, journal prompts, everyone's got journal prompts and meditation prompts so you can you can find something out there but it's still I really really think it's stillness and getting quiet and sort of drowning out this distraction in noise and starting to understand.
34:51
[SPEAKER_00]: what is actually mine and what is someone else's voice and and I think it's in the stillness and making a practice of stillness that would be helpful to get really clear and that doesn't happen overnight.
35:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you've met it for 15 minutes and you're like, okay, clarity.
35:05
[SPEAKER_00]: We have narratives and judgment around stillness and slowing down, but we have to kind of it's so important to create space for that.
35:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm curious, like at the beginning, because you talked about how most of, like, your clients and people on the podcast are women that are facing this, but there are men too.
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
35:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm dying.
35:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Where are all my men on my podcast?
35:26
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm curious, because, like, I feel like, from my personal experience that I have not, like, done this as a study.
35:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not going to, like, take claim that this is the stats.
35:35
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not what I'm saying.
35:36
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I'm saying.
35:37
[SPEAKER_03]: We should run a poll.
35:38
[SPEAKER_03]: but I feel like the pressure I feel internally is so much louder than what my partner feels and like what other band I've talked to feel and I know like there are some men that feel it too so again this is not scientific at all but I'm curious like if that's something you've noticed or you do feel like men feel it the same.
35:57
[SPEAKER_00]: they feel it for sure.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they talk about it enough.
36:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they are connected enough to acknowledge that that's what they're feeling.
36:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Some men, right?
36:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to generalize.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to say they feel the same because they don't have the same biological clock, but as we said earlier, there is a lot to be said about male infertility and the rise of that.
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I think women are just more vocal and more willing to have these conversations.
36:24
[SPEAKER_00]: speak to feeling like timeline pressure.
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think they feel it and I'm serious when I say like, I want them to come on.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: In my experience, men can be more internal and process more internally.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, luckily, I've had access to men in a way through being their therapist that I know that it's there, but a therapy space is very different in how they move through the world and how they share in the world and sort of the vulnerability they open up to in the world.
36:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think they feel it.
36:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's good to hear, I guess.
36:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in some ways, sometimes they feel it more than we do.
36:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting, how so?
36:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'll tell you, okay, so the podcast was pretty new and every year we do a holiday party, you know, we try to do outings and dinners and all things.
37:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're out and we meet a group of guys at the bar, you know, after dinner and we're having these conversations and I start sharing about the podcast.
37:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And this guy just caught my ear and he was saying, he's like, we feel all of these things too.
37:17
[SPEAKER_00]: He, we are not encouraged to go to therapy.
37:21
[SPEAKER_00]: They are not resources for us.
37:23
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not support for us in the way there is for you women.
37:25
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I am telling you, we feel all those things.
37:28
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, we want to be encouraged to go to therapy to read the book.
37:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So interesting.
37:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously therapy that is there for men and men do go.
37:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think from what he was saying to me, it's more normalize or socialize for women to seek help.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And for men it is not, we're not there yet.
37:46
[SPEAKER_00]: and this is what he was saying to me and I believe that to be true for a lot of men.
37:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this might be this is a small sample size, but I have this conversation with a few guy friends and my dad last weekend and this is when they told me and I still think this is so interesting.
38:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're like the pressure we feel earlier.
38:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Like in their 20s and 30s, it's a pressure to make money.
38:07
[SPEAKER_01]: The pressure to provide the pressure to build assets.
38:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And once they have assets, they feel the pressure to pass on the assets to an offspring.
38:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's when they start feeling the pressure to have kids.
38:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That's when the clock starts ticking.
38:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I've built to this life.
38:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I want someone to pass it down to.
38:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want this to go to waste.
38:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So I thought that was kind of interesting.
38:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a similar clock, but kind of not like, yeah, none of them said I have felt the pressure to be a father.
38:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not an identity pressure.
38:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a legacy pressure.
38:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Legacy pressure, yes, that's really interesting.
38:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And my dad felt the same way.
38:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's small sample size, but still.
38:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, huh, okay, different wing.
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that pressure stems from these societal gender norms that not have to provide, which also we need to dismantle because they're outdated.
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe, of course, the pressure manifests in a different way, but it's still there, right?
39:02
[SPEAKER_00]: There is that I have to do this now, the time is to do this.
39:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you know, my experience I found that to be true that men are like way more linear than women.
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like they can kind of like they do one thing at a time.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like established the career established the financial stability.
39:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I can have partnership.
39:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I could have family where women can kind of I feel like women can do it all at the same time.
39:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we can do motherhood.
39:25
[SPEAKER_00]: We can do career.
39:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We can do run the house.
39:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why we're burnt out.
39:30
[SPEAKER_02]: on us.
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
39:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, I had this epiphany the other day.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like running this house is like a freaking third full time house.
39:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we are definitely burnt out.
39:41
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, a big piece of it, too, is probably just personality, too.
39:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, obviously, like, yeah, we're talking small sample sizes with all of this.
39:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
39:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And generalizations.
39:51
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, a piece of it might be like, I'll just use me and my partner as an example.
39:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he's much better at staying in the present.
39:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm always thinking about like the next step and the next stage and all that.
40:03
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it actually works well for us because we can balance each other.
40:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you don't have anyone in either direction, things either just don't happen ever or like you're all just in the future and not enjoying the time.
40:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Like do you think there's some personalities that are just more prone to worrying about this type of stuff and others that aren't?
40:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, for sure.
40:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think.
40:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, kind of a byproduct of probably something that happened in childhood or ways that we raise a perpetuate some more anxious minds.
40:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like probably very nuanced and layer is how we came to be that type of thinker.
40:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I do want to say though that there is a place for planning and preparing, you know, while there is it's important to be present and being gratitude, there is a place for preparing and planning and part of that if we're talking about like biological clock is just
40:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Know your fertility health.
40:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Know your options.
40:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
40:52
[SPEAKER_00]: We just want to be mindful of like it's serving us to be a little bit in the future in terms of planning.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's not serving us to be there, if you're noticing you feeling really anxious or stressed or worried about that, that has to be acute to you to get out of the future and get more into the presence.
41:06
[SPEAKER_00]: If like planning and preparing is making you feel more reassured, more at ease, more comfortable great.
41:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's important to tune into what it's presenting in our bodies and what it's making us feel.
41:19
[SPEAKER_03]: I think like for me, if I can get vulnerable for a second, I think part of it is that like I didn't think about this stuff or plan it at all.
41:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Like when I was like in my 20s and early 30s, I think I was like obviously came in stages of wanting more out of relationships and all of that, but I wasn't really thinking like long term about much.
41:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was maybe more in the present then.
41:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And then like when I had the partner that I could envision a life with, it kind of caught up to me.
41:48
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that has been like kind of terrifying and scary in a lot of ways, because I maybe didn't feel as prepared if I had done it.
41:57
[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm also like, trying not to put blame on myself because I'm like, I just wasn't there.
42:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I froze my eggs when I was 37, which is technically like too late.
42:06
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, of course, if I could go back in time, I wish I had done it at 30.
42:10
[SPEAKER_03]: But I just wasn't there at all at that stage.
42:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
42:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's where you just have to offer some compassion and sort of realligating like no one was talking about this when we were Yeah, 30 like no one was talking about this and our Tony's we're talking about it now and we're not in our twenties and you guys are still in your No, we're not.
42:28
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it believes us
42:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
42:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So to be fair to ourselves to offer self-sum compassion, these were not conversations that were happening in our 20s and early 30s.
42:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this shift there can be, I'm so proud of myself that I did it at 37.
42:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so grateful I was present in my 20s and early 30s because there was a purpose to that presence and there was a purpose to what I was focusing on then.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So, offing ourselves some compassion is really, really important.
43:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's such a huge shift.
43:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say to you, like, awesome for doing it at 37.
43:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
43:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, can I just say the pressure women have and the emotional burden that we feel all the time.
43:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Like in your example, Julie, yes, of course it's great to stay in the present.
43:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Lala land.
43:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we're taught now, it's like at 30, you should start thinking about future kids and family planning.
43:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Women are constantly thinking five steps ahead because we fucking have to.
43:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's my part of the Holy Ghosts.
43:33
[SPEAKER_01]: We all have, it's like, as much as I love to stay in the present, like a lot of my male counterparts, we have to think ahead, though.
43:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like with egg freezing, yeah.
43:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's thinking ahead.
43:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we've had so many conversations about that about the burden and the responsibility to play some women, especially, you know, single women that go through this.
43:50
[SPEAKER_00]: They're paying for it financially, going through it physically.
43:52
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going through it emotionally, and that might be what sets their future partner up for the possibility of,
43:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The family, you know, so it's so true.
44:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so valid.
44:01
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot falls on us as a woman.
44:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where it's important to offer ourselves compassion to slow down to give ourselves grace to find communities of other women that support us because it's true.
44:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's frustrating, you know, I met a woman at an event.
44:15
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, I'm angry.
44:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so angry that I, I'm like, that's valid.
44:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That is valid.
44:21
[SPEAKER_00]: If we don't own it, it still our lives too.
44:23
[SPEAKER_00]: My partner is very involved and very helpful, but so much falls.
44:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:27
[SPEAKER_00]: There's like so much like it is your head could spend all the things you have to like do and keep track of and you know, sometimes you're not recognized for that.
44:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'll even say like there's toilet paper in this head.
44:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not to him, but like I think like there's toilet paper here because I get the toilet paper and there's paper towels and there's food, you know, so it's like I think it'd be nice to be sort of
44:48
[SPEAKER_00]: that we do and all that we carry and all the sort of burdens that are ours to kind of hold definitely.
44:55
[SPEAKER_03]: I like how real this conversation is.
44:58
[SPEAKER_03]: I hope it left people feel like hopeful too but also like okay that you can feel what you're feeling and like it's natural.
45:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Totally.
45:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Before we get into takeaways, I guess like what's kind of some partake words you would leave for someone that's feeling like I'm not where I want to be right
45:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the first thing I want to make clear is like all of these things are valid.
45:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not to say like you won't get caught in comparison.
45:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You won't feel left behind.
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm saying is like let's not stay in that for too long.
45:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want anyone to listen and say like thinking I'm like just be grateful.
45:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Just to be present like yes and all the things that you're feeling are so valid.
45:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've felt them too.
45:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's try to change the perspective.
45:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's try to look through a different lens.
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I always say to clients.
45:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like let's make room for all the narratives.
45:43
[SPEAKER_00]: If we're going to say mmm.
45:45
[SPEAKER_00]: like, okay, what's why, what's the, like let's not just land on one thing, let's just not land on like, I'm single and I'm never gonna meet anybody.
45:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's land on, I'm single and I enjoy the opportunity to like meet new people.
45:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we just have to invite and make space for other narratives, other than the ones that are just perpetuating sadness, depression, and anxiety.
46:04
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so cliche, but life is short, life is unexpected.
46:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not guaranteed every day and just kind of finding small moments of joy.
46:15
[SPEAKER_00]: if we're really looking for it.
46:17
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that, and I guess it's a good segue to take away because I think you can, they both can be true.
46:23
[SPEAKER_03]: You can be feeling certain ways, but then you can also appreciate what is good in whatever stage you're at.
46:29
[SPEAKER_03]: I think another piece too is like, unless you can figure out ways to manage this, there's no silver bullet of like, when you get X, this will just end.
46:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it keeps going, and this is just a state of,
46:41
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, feeling like there's always the next milestone to reach and thing to do, and I actually put up a post on our Instagram about, you know, like reflecting back, like when we finished our audiobook of like 10 years ago, I was, you know, single and heartbroken and all this stuff.
47:01
[SPEAKER_03]: And then now 10 years later it's like I'm doing this audiobook and met someone all this and one of my friends wrote on the post and she's like don't forget about the middle and I was like So important and I'm like it's so important because that is where like all the growth happened and like
47:19
[SPEAKER_03]: know there were so many memories and so many things that like got me to where I was she was like yeah don't forget about the hard work in the middle and like the fun that you had too and I think that is so important and we forget it when we're always thinking about milestones
47:34
[SPEAKER_03]: that's really great.
47:35
[SPEAKER_03]: The last thing I'll add like before, you know, if you could take your takeaways, but like I also just to add, I did do egg freezing and I think I thought it was gonna be a lot more painful than it was in scary and it actually wasn't as bad and I get other people have like different experiences but for me it was like a big fear of just going to like getting the shots and like all the stuff and it was not nearly as bad as I thought it was gonna be.
47:59
[SPEAKER_03]: So just putting that out there if that helps anyone in any way.
48:03
[SPEAKER_01]: My takeaway is it's okay to plan, it's okay to think into the future, but I think a lot times we celebrate tangible achievements and like what we produce, it's good to be productive, so getting married, having a kid, that's productive, you're producing something, but
48:21
[SPEAKER_01]: The shift for me recently, in recent years, has been celebrating the absence of something.
48:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually feeling the privilege of the absence of a kid, the absence of a relationship, and it's okay to not be producing all the time, because sometimes not having something could also put you an advantage for living your life to the fullest.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that so much.
48:48
[SPEAKER_00]: All things can be true at once.
48:50
[SPEAKER_00]: There can be space and room for all emotions.
48:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when we talk about comparison, it's okay to feel happy for a friend that's engaged.
48:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
48:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Also sad if you're not there yet.
49:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay to feel, you know, excited to be single, but also want to get married.
49:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And so just permission for more feelings at once and let's not judge them.
49:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's normalize them.
49:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It is such a real emotion.
49:12
[SPEAKER_00]: to like see a friend produce and then be like, ah, amazing, but you know, and then when we feel like, we're just like, oh my god, I'm the worst friend, and then we judge ourselves.
49:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So, less judgment, less comparison, more compassion, more celebration.
49:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Love that so much.
49:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So good, so good.
49:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Beth, if people want to learn more about you and your practice and your podcast work, can they go to?
49:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, awesome.
49:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So the practice is NYC therapeutic wellness.
49:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm personally not accepting any new clients, but I have a huge team of amazing clinicians that are taking on new clients either virtually or in person, we're in Midtown Manhattan.
49:48
[SPEAKER_00]: The podcast is quite the clock, and we are quite the clock pod on Instagram and TikTok, so you can check us out there.
49:54
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of fun content.
49:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Anywhere you can get your podcasts like Spotify, Apple, YouTube, yes, that's where you can find me.
50:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Love it.
50:01
[SPEAKER_03]: We love your podcast and we will link all of that in the show notes as well.
50:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.
50:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for coming.
50:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
50:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't miss an episode.
50:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll see you all next week.
50:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Bye.