Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / The Science of Real Optimism and Why Visualization Works with Dr. Deepika Chopra
Transcript
- [00:00:00] Dr. Deepika Chopra: The brain actually doesn't know the difference or can't tell the difference between what you're [00:00:05] imagining and what you're actually doing. I would sit with patients while they were getting chemo treatments and [00:00:10] infusions, and I would take them through a visual imagery of actually imagining the treatment killing in [00:00:15] an aggressive way, the cancer cells. [00:00:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:00:17] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And there's a lot of research behind that. Being able [00:00:20] to visualize your body working with whatever the treatment is, [00:00:25] or sort of imagining it, do what you want it to do. Is [00:00:30] not only powerful for the brain and helps you get through something that is really tough and there's [00:00:35] a lot of significance in that, but also it physically can change the [00:00:40] way your cells will see the chemistry. [00:00:41] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah, the chemistry. [00:00:41] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Most of us were taught that optimism [00:00:45] means staying upbeat, thinking good thoughts, and pushing away anything painful or [00:00:50] uncomfortable. But that version of optimism is unrealistic, emotionally draining, [00:00:55] and often leaves us feeling like we are failing at life. [00:00:58] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Our modern [00:01:00] society and modern world constantly and chronically imagining worst case scenario and [00:01:05] ruminating about that is not helpful to our survival anymore. [00:01:08] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so actually the [00:01:10] opposite is necessary for thriving. And there's been a ton of research done on people [00:01:15] that, uh, score higher on optimism levels. They. Get [00:01:20] sick less often. They bounce back from common respiratory viruses very quickly. [00:01:25] Optimistic people are more productive, they're more desirable and [00:01:30] likable. [00:01:30] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So across the board there is just a so many [00:01:35] reasons, and it's not just like. Happiness is very particular to optimism. [00:01:40] [00:01:40] Dr. Taz: My guest today, Dr. Dipika Chopra, known as The Optimism Doctor, has spent more than a [00:01:45] decade studying what optimism really is her new book. The Power of Real [00:01:50] Optimism Breaks Down the Science Behind Resilience. [00:01:53] Dr. Taz: Joy, emotional [00:01:55] strength and the habits that help us stay grounded when life feels anything but easy. [00:01:59] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:02:00] People can want something 10 outta 10 they can want, but their [00:02:05] expectation do you expect this is actually gonna happen is like a four. Hmm. And unless we [00:02:10] do the work to close that gap of the 10 and the four, your brain is probably not working for you to get [00:02:15] there. [00:02:15] Dr. Deepika Chopra: With the solutions. You don't always get what you want, but you most likely always get what you [00:02:20] expect. [00:02:20] Dr. Taz: Oh [00:02:20] Dr. Deepika Chopra: my gosh. And you can change the expectation in one of the best ways is through visual [00:02:25] imagery. [00:02:25] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:02:25] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Because once your brain has seen something. It now [00:02:30] understands that it's a possibility. [00:02:31] Dr. Taz: In this conversation, we talk about why toxic positivity [00:02:35] makes stress worse. [00:02:36] Dr. Taz: How awe and micro habits come and overwhelm [00:02:40] mind and why naming your emotions honestly is one of the strongest [00:02:45] psychological tools you have. Or some brains born more pre-wired for [00:02:50] negativity and more resistant to optimism than others. Great [00:02:55] question. I think a lot of people.[00:03:00] [00:03:01] Dr. Taz: This episode is sponsored by Whole Plus, a holistic health [00:03:05] platform built around education, personalization, and integrative care. [00:03:10] Whole plus blends holistic, integrative and functional medicine clinics with learning [00:03:15] resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this podcast. So you're not just [00:03:20] treated, you're informed. [00:03:21] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a curated [00:03:25] wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your body at the root level. [00:03:30] Whole Plus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. Visit [00:03:35] us@wholeplus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's [00:03:40] HOL ps.co. Okay. Dr. Chopra, you're here and [00:03:45] you're gonna try to teach [00:03:46] Dr. Deepika Chopra: us about optimism. [00:03:49] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Are we not optimistic [00:03:50] enough? Tricky question. I think optimism really. [00:03:55] Gets sort of a interesting definition a lot, and it's wrong. [00:04:00] Um, I think it's, um, defined incorrectly all the time. So I think [00:04:05] what's interesting about that is I think a lot of people think they're not optimistic, but when they learn [00:04:10] what real optimism is, I think a lot of people are like, oh, I, I guess I am [00:04:15] sort of more optimistic than I thought, but past that, I think that [00:04:20] we could always be more optimistic. [00:04:21] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And there is, and I'm sure you know this, but there is just. [00:04:25] Plethora of research to show why being optimistic is so beneficial, [00:04:30] not just, I think we obviously can think about emotionally. Mm-hmm. Why that makes sense. Mm-hmm. [00:04:35] But the part that's like astounding is, is physically and [00:04:40] biologically why optimism is so important for not only living a [00:04:45] long time, but thriving. [00:04:47] Dr. Taz: So, you know, optimism, when I hear that word, I [00:04:50] start thinking like. And please don't make, please don't roll your eyes that this Oh, no, I heard all, I start thinking, [00:04:55] I started thinking like, positive vibes only. [00:04:57] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. Or [00:04:58] Dr. Taz: like, I'm gonna protect my peace, [00:05:00] or mm-hmm. You know, like, okay, glass half [00:05:02] Dr. Deepika Chopra: full. [00:05:02] Dr. Taz: Exactly. [00:05:04] Dr. Taz: Rose, rose [00:05:04] Dr. Deepika Chopra: colored [00:05:05] glasses. Like, [00:05:05] Dr. Taz: we're gonna like manifest this. Oh yeah. Like those are the things that I hear. [00:05:10] What are we talking about the same thing? [00:05:11] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Not really. [00:05:12] Dr. Taz: Okay. I had a feeling. [00:05:13] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:05:15] Um, it's funny you say that. So whenever I'm speaking to like a really large group of people, I always love [00:05:20] to start and ask people like. [00:05:22] Dr. Deepika Chopra: What's the first word that comes to your mind when you [00:05:25] think about optimism? And of course, like it makes a lot of sense. You're not alone. [00:05:30] It's like a resounding roar of like positivity. Yeah. You know? [00:05:35] Definitely. And I think that it's surprising to people when they are hearing from [00:05:40] someone that sort of specializes in optimism or known as the optimism doctor to say that.[00:05:45] [00:05:45] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Positivity is probably like maybe word three or four on my list. [00:05:50] And yes, they have a lot in common. I kind of like to think of them as like cousins, but [00:05:55] the two words that come to mind very strongly for me when I think about this notion and idea [00:06:00] of optimism is resiliency. Curiosity. [00:06:04] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:06:04] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And those [00:06:05] are stronger sort of synonyms with optimism than positivity is. [00:06:09] Dr. Taz: So [00:06:10] resiliency and curiosity, yes. I'm gonna ask a non-op, I'm an [00:06:15] optimist, but I'm gonna pretend like I'm not. But I'm gonna ask a non optimist, pessimistic question, like, [00:06:20] why do we need to care? [00:06:21] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:06:21] Dr. Taz: About optimism. Why, why does it matter in the health context? Yeah. Why [00:06:25] does it matter in the community or the family world? [00:06:28] Dr. Taz: You know, we have all [00:06:30] studied those studies, right? That say that we have, uh, primate brains that are [00:06:35] wired for negativity. Yeah. Um, why, what got you into this? [00:06:40] Why, why do you care about us being resilient and curious [00:06:43] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So, [00:06:45] so much there, number one. I think it's so interesting from an evolutionary standpoint, [00:06:50] we were wired, we are wired to be more pessimistic, and that [00:06:55] worked for us. [00:06:55] Dr. Deepika Chopra: A very, very long time ago, our ancestors were running away from [00:07:00] saber-tooth tigers, and the ones that got away are the ones that were [00:07:05] constantly. Ruminating over worst case scenario. And they applied that they got [00:07:10] away and then they survived and then they passed that down and so on. [00:07:15] And right now we still live in a world where there are predators. [00:07:19] Dr. Deepika Chopra: We won't talk about [00:07:20] who they are. Yes. What they look like, but we, they look very different than saber-tooth tiger. Right? [00:07:25] And what we do know is in our modern society and modern world. [00:07:30] Constantly and chronically imagining worst case scenario and ruminating about that is [00:07:35] not helpful to our survival anymore. [00:07:36] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm. And so actually the opposite is necessary for thriving. And [00:07:40] there's been a ton of research done on people that, uh, score higher o on [00:07:45] optimism levels. They. Get sick less often. They bounce back [00:07:50] from common respiratory viruses very quickly. They have, they have much lower [00:07:55] cardiovascular issues. Mm-hmm. [00:07:56] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And greater cardiovascular health. They, this [00:08:00] one's really big, but they hold much more, um, [00:08:05] sort of rich connections and friendships and relationships. And of [00:08:10] course, the Harvard study that came out recently, the, the longitudinal study. Yeah. That was so powerful on [00:08:15] sort of what is the one. Predicting factor that you can tell when someone's gonna be happy [00:08:20] later in life. [00:08:20] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And it all came back to their quality of relationships and connection. [00:08:24] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:08:25] [00:08:25] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Um, optimistic people are more productive. They, [00:08:30] um, they're more desirable and likable. Um, and so that goes [00:08:35] with the connection and that also goes with, it helps with production as well. Um, [00:08:40] so across the board there is just a. So many reasons, and it's [00:08:45] not just like happiness. [00:08:46] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It's very particular to optimism and I [00:08:50] think I sort of glossed over, but the true definition of optimism [00:08:55] is. It's someone that is not devoid of reality. I think we think that a lot [00:09:00] like ignorance is bliss, but the true definition of someone who is optimistic is [00:09:05] someone who is keenly and very mindfully aware of the [00:09:10] setbacks and the roadblocks and the less than ideal situations. [00:09:13] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But the caveat is they see those [00:09:15] things as temporary. Mm, and that they innately know that they have the ability to [00:09:20] persevere through those setbacks solely based on their own history of [00:09:25] resiliency. [00:09:25] Dr. Taz: Wow. So you mentioned that the early part before we were talking, that the early part [00:09:30] of your career was, uh, psych oncology, correct? [00:09:33] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. There was a, a [00:09:35] big portion of my career in, in psycho-oncology. [00:09:37] Dr. Taz: So tell us a little bit about that [00:09:40] field and how the seeds of this work really began. Because I think I remember even [00:09:45] maybe just. Recently, like a month ago, seeing a study around, you know, the people that do [00:09:50] well with cancer, who have good outcomes are people that are typically optimistic. [00:09:54] Dr. Taz: [00:09:55] Yes. You know, so I'm wondering if that's sort of where [00:09:57] Dr. Deepika Chopra: mm-hmm. [00:09:57] Dr. Taz: Where this kind of planted for you. So Phil, you know, [00:10:00] maybe fill us it on that leg. [00:10:01] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:10:01] Dr. Taz: What you were going through. [00:10:03] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I mean, I [00:10:05] was, I did my practicum and my internship and also one of my [00:10:10] fellowships, um, in that space. Mm-hmm. It was sort of interesting because [00:10:15] it, it sounds. [00:10:16] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Like it makes sense now, but at the time, this was [00:10:20] a while back, I feel like not a lot of people were talking about this idea of optimism. [00:10:25] I think we were just really getting into, at least psychologically the [00:10:30] idea of being in the present. Mm-hmm. So CBT focuses cognitive behavioral, [00:10:34] Dr. Taz: right? [00:10:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:10:35] Um, therapy focuses a lot on the present, which. [00:10:38] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I, most of my foundation [00:10:40] comes from, and I truly believe in that. But at the very same time, I was learning so much [00:10:45] about the brain and everything I was learning about the brain was pointing towards the brain being this [00:10:50] anticipatory organ. [00:10:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:10:51] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So it's constantly acting and sort of [00:10:55] behaving in ways of the future. [00:10:56] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And it was interesting to me. So that's like. Five seconds from [00:11:00] now, a minute from now, five months from now. Anything that is in the future, that's how our brains work. [00:11:05] And it was interesting that we weren't really, or I wasn't being taught [00:11:10] anything modality wise, um, and intervention wise to work with people on what they were [00:11:15] thinking or expecting to happen in their future, even if it was minutes from now. [00:11:19] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And when you [00:11:20] really think about it. Someone feels their emotion, they feel the way they feel [00:11:25] because they have made a decision or an idea about how something will go [00:11:30] or occur. And so at the very same time, I was working, you know, in the [00:11:35] oncology space and with people that were diagnosed with cancer and their families. [00:11:39] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. And [00:11:40] it seemed like a strange place to talk about optimism. Because there [00:11:45] was a lot to not be so hopeful about. [00:11:48] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:11:48] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But yes, you're [00:11:50] right. There's actually tons of research done that it actually changes outcomes. And [00:11:55] I mean, the same thing is true for people that have gone through. Any sort [00:12:00] of really, really traumatic experience. [00:12:02] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Um, you know, one of the guests on my [00:12:05] podcast, my previous podcast was, um, one of the oldest Holocaust survivors. [00:12:09] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:12:09] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:12:10] And something that was so evident in her experience, even as a little girl. During [00:12:15] that, that time she was so optimistic. She woke up every morning [00:12:20] and she thought about her future. Mm-hmm. And visualized what her future might be, even though her [00:12:25] circumstances around her and most people around her were keenly, sort of aware of the very [00:12:30] reality they were living. [00:12:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And that's what kept her going. [00:12:33] Dr. Taz: Wow. [00:12:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And. [00:12:35] So, yeah, I dunno if I answered your question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Altogether. But it was an interesting, and I think, I thought during that [00:12:40] time I was starting to utilize some sort of more, I guess, [00:12:45] innovative modalities, and I had really amazing supervisors who were [00:12:50] sort of like, sure, um, you're studying this or you're kind of going down this avenue. [00:12:54] Dr. Deepika Chopra: You can try this [00:12:55] out on our population. I think I, after a couple years of that, I was like, if these [00:13:00] things are so evidently working in this population during this very traumatic [00:13:05] time, imagine also what these sort of, you know, tools [00:13:10] could do for. Other people? [00:13:13] Dr. Taz: What were some of the things that were [00:13:15] working? [00:13:15] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So, you know, one thing that is sort of for me that goes [00:13:20] hand in hand with actually increasing someone's optimism is the idea of sensory-based visual [00:13:25] imagery. [00:13:25] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:13:25] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so. It's the idea that I'm sure we, you've all, everyone's heard of this [00:13:30] idea of visualization, but I don't think a lot of people know there's real science behind it. [00:13:33] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:13:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:13:35] And the interesting thing is our brain has mirror neurons and the [00:13:40] brain actually doesn't know the difference or can't tell the difference between what you're imagining [00:13:45] if you're really imagining it using all your senses and what you're actually doing. Hmm. So people that like [00:13:50] watch that show Dancing with the Stars. [00:13:51] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. Or something. Or watch people dancing. Yeah. Your brain is firing [00:13:55] the mirror. Neurons are. Firing the same way as if they would be dancing. And so a lot of times [00:13:59] Dr. Taz: you can sing then [00:14:00] [00:14:00] Dr. Deepika Chopra: yeah, you can sing, or your brain thinks you can sing, right? You're watching someone sing, right? And you're [00:14:05] putting yourself sort of in there, or you're visualizing yourself singing. [00:14:08] Dr. Deepika Chopra: That's like the piece. [00:14:09] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:14:09] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And [00:14:10] so this was used a lot in sports psychology. So there's a ton of research on this. Like we know [00:14:15] that your body has a limited ability to practice. And so [00:14:20] sometimes you know these really elite athletes, you have to. Tap into the mental [00:14:25] practice. [00:14:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:14:26] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And that's a really big part of sports psychology. [00:14:28] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so [00:14:30] taking the research from there and applying it to, you know, the population [00:14:35] that maybe is not an elite athlete. [00:14:36] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:14:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It's just as powerful. And so the part [00:14:40] for me that's so interesting is so. A lot of times, of course we all [00:14:45] know we have self-limiting beliefs, [00:14:46] Dr. Taz: right? [00:14:47] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And we have come up with these sort of core [00:14:50] beliefs about ourselves that in rational sort of setting, we can all say like. [00:14:54] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:14:55] This is a really crappy belief I have about myself, and I know rationally [00:15:00] it's not helping me. [00:15:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:15:01] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Get to where I wanna go. [00:15:02] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:15:02] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But like you're stuck with how, I [00:15:05] mean, maybe it's been 40 plus years that you have collected all this evidence to make that belief [00:15:10] true. And so my issue with kind of what happens next in a lot of the like somewhat [00:15:15] new age modalities is someone might tell you to just repeat an affirmation. [00:15:19] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:15:20] [00:15:20] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And all the evidence shows that. Unfortunately, [00:15:25] like if you don't truly believe the affirmation you're saying, it will just work [00:15:30] the opposite and negatively for you. And not only now have you said something you don't believe, your [00:15:35] brain then, which is a very powerful organ, right, comes back to you in that moment and starts [00:15:40] flipping through like. [00:15:41] Dr. Deepika Chopra: How dumb that you just said that. I'm gonna give you 35 examples, why that's not [00:15:45] true, and now you feel shame on top of it. And so the true thing [00:15:50] really there is how can we chip away at someone's core belief that's not working for them and collect [00:15:55] more evidence for them to show that something better for them is possible. [00:15:59] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Your brain [00:16:00] only actually starts to put forth the energy and the. [00:16:05] Executive functioning in, you know, the prefrontal cortex mm-hmm. To start coming up with solutions if it thinks that what you [00:16:10] want is possible, [00:16:11] Dr. Taz: but how do you do? So talk to us then about the sensory [00:16:15] visualization. Yeah. Because, you know, I have a mindfulness practice. [00:16:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. I journal, I do these [00:16:20] things. How do I, like, how do I know I'm doing them to the point that my [00:16:25] brain actually believes that the things I'm writing and saying are are really true. Are really true. [00:16:30] [00:16:30] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So one of the best ways. There's a couple different ways, but one of the best ways I [00:16:35] am, I think because I come from the CBT background. [00:16:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. I love evidence-based and I [00:16:40] love measurable things. [00:16:40] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:16:41] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I measure everything. [00:16:42] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:16:42] Dr. Deepika Chopra: One outta 10. [00:16:43] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:16:43] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Simple measurement. [00:16:45] So if you are going to, uh. Write something, say something, repeat something. Brain [00:16:50] loves repetition. I would ask myself and rate, how much do I actually believe this from [00:16:55] one to 10? [00:16:55] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Or how likely is this to actually, how do, how much do I believe [00:17:00] this is gonna occur? One to 10. And the difference there is a lot of people can want [00:17:05] something 10 outta 10 they could want, but their expectation do you expect this [00:17:10] is actually gonna happen is like a four. [00:17:12] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:17:12] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And unless we do the work to close that gap.[00:17:15] [00:17:15] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Of the 10 and the four, your brain is probably not working for you to get there with the solutions. And [00:17:20] so the big takeaway is sort of like you don't always get what you want, but you [00:17:25] most likely always get what you expect. [00:17:26] Dr. Taz: Oh my [00:17:27] Dr. Deepika Chopra: gosh. And you can change the expectation in one of the best [00:17:30] ways is through visual imagery. [00:17:31] Dr. Taz: Wow. ' [00:17:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: cause once your brain has seen something, [00:17:35] it now understands that it's a possibility. And the more you visualize it and use [00:17:40] all the senses, because that's a powerful part of turning that part on in the brain and the mirror [00:17:45] neurons, it's seen it now. It's seen yourself as it now, and it now [00:17:50] believes it is closer of a possibility than you just saying, I really want a great relationship. [00:17:54] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm. [00:17:55] Or I want this promotion. I mean, you could want [00:18:00] that, but based on your experience of the last 20 years and whatever your setbacks [00:18:05] are or your core beliefs, I many times I will sit down with someone and they're like, that's what [00:18:10] I truly want, and I'm like. How likely do you think that is to happen for you? [00:18:14] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And [00:18:15] they're like, well, [00:18:15] Dr. Taz: so how do we change our expectations? [00:18:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So a lot of it is [00:18:20] collecting evidence. I, I believe we are all, what the brain loves is to be a [00:18:25] detective. We've already been doing that. It's naturally what we do. We collect, collect evidence, sorting. [00:18:29] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:18:30] [00:18:30] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And we have a bunch of cognitive biases. [00:18:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So you know, things that [00:18:35] help us. You know, to sort of make shortcuts and we need those, but oftentimes [00:18:40] they're putting us in this automatic, which we need, but in, if you, if those go unchecked, a lot [00:18:45] of times they're working against you. So you might, you know, be someone that has this core [00:18:50] belief that, you know, you're not very likable. [00:18:53] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm unlikable. [00:18:55] And you might go to a social setting, like a party and someone might [00:19:00] say to you like. Wow. Like I really thought that story you told was [00:19:05] like so funny. Yeah. Like you're funny. [00:19:06] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:19:06] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And then you know, someone else might [00:19:10] say to you another type of compliment and then someone else might come up to you and just be like, [00:19:15] huh, I didn't get that. [00:19:16] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And based on your core belief, you probably [00:19:20] put value on that third comment so much more than you do any of the other [00:19:25] comments and you leave and you collect. The evidence you collected from that night was. Gosh, I [00:19:30] can't tell a great story. Mm, nobody got it. [00:19:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:19:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Even though there was evidence there, [00:19:35] you just weren't programmed to receive it, that was actually telling you something different. [00:19:39] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Gotcha. So it's about [00:19:40] intentionally. Challenging yourself, [00:19:43] Dr. Taz: putting you in situations. [00:19:44] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:19:44] Dr. Taz: [00:19:45] To be able to collect better evidence, [00:19:46] Dr. Deepika Chopra: collect better evidence. It's there. It's sort of like sometimes I [00:19:50] work with a client and I'll say, I want you to go home and [00:19:55] all day tomorrow. I want you to think about the color red. [00:19:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:19:58] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Just think about red and then [00:20:00] come back and tell me. What that was like. And they may come back and tell me or shoot me a [00:20:05] quick email and be like, oh my gosh, like I saw 15 red cars, [00:20:10] like four people when I was walking to work were wearing red. And it's not [00:20:15] because I paid them to wear red that day or anything. [00:20:17] Dr. Deepika Chopra: They've always been there. It's just what you [00:20:20] were intentionally choosing to be attuned to. And so it's sort of a proof that [00:20:25] there is other evidence out there. You are just not. You are not tuned into that [00:20:30] radio station. [00:20:30] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:20:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And you can tune into a different radio station. It takes work and [00:20:35] intention and practice. [00:20:36] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But once you do and you tune into whatever that radio station is, you start [00:20:40] collecting evidence that you want to collect. Your brain is more likely to now seek that out. 'cause [00:20:45] it's seen it, it's now programmed it, it's gonna create another shortcut. So [00:20:50] lots to be done there. Yeah. For someone that is stuck. [00:20:52] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Stuck. [00:20:52] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:20:53] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Which I talk about in, [00:20:55] in one of the chapters in this book. Um, you know, I was sitting across, after I'd done this [00:21:00] a bunch of times, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm onto something here. [00:21:02] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:21:03] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So, you know, I'd [00:21:05] ask the person in front of me to sort of like visualize, you know, what it is that they [00:21:10] really wanted. [00:21:11] Dr. Deepika Chopra: This particular patient of mine at the time was [00:21:15] super, super stuck. Had a very, very rigid core belief about [00:21:20] himself. And when I, and he really wanted to be in a loving, respectful relationship. [00:21:25] And when I had asked him to imagine that I was not expecting this, but I asked [00:21:30] him, let's, why don't you imagine what it's like to be, you know, in this relationship? [00:21:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And he just looked at [00:21:35] me and he laughed. He just was like, literally could not stop laughing. [00:21:40] And I was like, he's like, how could you ever expect me to imagine that? [00:21:45] That is so unlikely? And he just could not, like, he couldn't go there [00:21:50] cognitively yet. And so I tried a different approach where I was like, okay, this is not gonna work [00:21:55] this simply for everyone. [00:21:57] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Depends how deep this core belief is, right? [00:22:00] And so I sort of, you know, and I say this in a. [00:22:05] I wish there was a better way to say this. Maybe I'll come up with a better way to say this over time, but [00:22:10] I sort of positively manipulated him. Sometimes we have to do these things that are for the best [00:22:15] intentions. [00:22:15] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm-hmm. But sort of a manipulation. [00:22:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:22:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And instead of asking him to [00:22:20] visualize it, I asked him a very direct question and I said, who's the first person that you're gonna tell [00:22:25] when you are in this loving long-term relationship? And [00:22:30] he immediately said, my mom. [00:22:31] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:22:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And I was like, oh, where are you when you're telling your mom?[00:22:35] [00:22:35] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And he could go there, I'm in her room, I'm doing this. What does it smell [00:22:40] like? What does it sound like? What is she wearing? What's around you? Do you hear any sounds? And so now we've [00:22:45] created a visualization of him talking about this life that he. [00:22:50] Currently in like in his imagination, and now it becomes closer to a [00:22:55] possibility. [00:22:55] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:22:55] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So he's opened a window. [00:22:57] Dr. Taz: Gotcha. [00:22:57] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And then we start from there. [00:22:58] Dr. Taz: Ah, so [00:23:00] interesting. [00:23:00] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:23:01] Dr. Taz: So if you're trying to do this on your own [00:23:03] Dr. Deepika Chopra: mm-hmm. [00:23:03] Dr. Taz: Or do you, well, let's ask that question [00:23:05] first. Do you recommend walking through this sensory visualization exercise on your own? [00:23:10] [00:23:10] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah, I actually, again, it's one of the chapters in the book. [00:23:13] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Okay. And I was like, I really want to [00:23:15] break this down so that someone at home can do this. Of course, you know, [00:23:20] there are many caveats and oftentimes when you are going through something [00:23:25] or there is something very deep seated, I think. Working. There's no [00:23:30] better way than to work with a professional. [00:23:31] Dr. Taz: Gotcha. [00:23:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Um, there's a lot of science behind this and [00:23:35] so for me, this work is so exciting. There's like science behind [00:23:40] when you should use third person visual imagery. Oh my gosh. When you should, when you use first person. I mean, it's really, really [00:23:45] exciting and interesting and I. Nerd out about it. Yeah. And so I would always say there is a [00:23:50] way to start this practice and to continue to repeat it again. [00:23:54] Dr. Deepika Chopra: The brain [00:23:55] loves repetition and there is a more simple sort of format that [00:24:00] you can always start and if you wanna go deeper into it, I think finding someone that [00:24:05] specializes in sensory-based visual imagery and that's something that I'm super [00:24:10] passionate about and I love doing, um, is probably really helpful. [00:24:14] Dr. Taz: Let's go into some. [00:24:15] Specific examples. I'm just curious. So you've been given a diagnosis, [00:24:20] cancer, diabetes, heart disease, autoimmune disease. You've [00:24:25] been told that the disease is pretty advanced. Mm-hmm. And you're your [00:24:30] three medications that you need to take to reverse the disease. In the case of cancer, you know, the [00:24:35] usual spouting of statistics. [00:24:36] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. You've got a one in four chance to survive. [00:24:40] What works for that patient? [00:24:42] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So I wanna be clear that like all of this [00:24:45] stuff is not, you know, in place [00:24:50] of treatment, [00:24:51] Dr. Taz: right? [00:24:51] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It's very much supplemental and adjunctive and a [00:24:55] lot of times it can help. I think the patient do better with treatment, whether that is [00:25:00] actually calming the nervous system down and better receiving, or whether that's [00:25:05] actually just helping a patient be more compliant. [00:25:07] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And that's a big part of it. [00:25:09] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:25:09] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:25:10] So for me, a lot of the work, which sounds. Also, a lot of this was counterintuitive at [00:25:15] first for me. A lot of the work in visual imagery I did when I was in the oncology world is [00:25:20] I would sit with patients while they were getting chemo treatments and infusions, and I would take them through a [00:25:25] visual imagery of actually imagining the treatment killing in an aggressive way, the [00:25:30] cancer cells. [00:25:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:25:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And there's a lot of research behind that. And so it helped [00:25:35] to sort of, you know, a lot of people obviously coming in and I can [00:25:40] completely understand why. You look at your treatment of chemo as like a [00:25:45] really awful thing, right? It's toxic, right? [00:25:48] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:25:48] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And you don't wanna do that, [00:25:50] but at the same time, it is. [00:25:51] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Your best chance, a best case scenario in addition to other things, but [00:25:55] chemo's a huge part of this, or surgery, for example. Mm-hmm. No one's excited about the surgery. It's [00:26:00] awful. And, but a lot of times it's what's lifesaving, [00:26:03] Dr. Taz: right? [00:26:03] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so being [00:26:05] able to visualize your body. Working with whatever the treatment is [00:26:10] or sort of imagining it, do what you want it to do is [00:26:15] not only powerful for the brain and helps you get through something that is really tough and [00:26:20] there's a lot of significance in that. [00:26:21] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm-hmm. As you, you must know, but also it [00:26:25] physically can change the way your cells, the C chemistry. Yeah, the chemistry. [00:26:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:26:29] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So we [00:26:30] know that even with things like when you get a blood draw, if you're tense. [00:26:35] And you are, which by the way is me. If you're super tense, [00:26:40] it makes it really hard to find a vein. [00:26:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:26:42] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Right. If you're holding your breath, you know how many [00:26:45] times, and, and I can talk about this 'cause I have needle phobia. [00:26:48] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:26:48] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But actually [00:26:50] exhaling when the needle comes in. Or exhaling when you were about to [00:26:55] have something painful happen. Not only is there to sort of just be like, Hey, take a deep breath, [00:27:00] and it like sort of helps to relax your brain. [00:27:03] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It actually helps to relax [00:27:05] the muscle and the vein there and it opens that up and it [00:27:10] relaxes your whole nervous system. Mm-hmm. And. In some ways, like I have [00:27:15] used it and when I exhale, I actually don't feel the pain. Right, [00:27:18] Dr. Taz: right. [00:27:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But when you tense something, [00:27:20] so there's a lot of reasons why it doesn't change the circumstance.[00:27:25] [00:27:25] Dr. Deepika Chopra: That's clear. Yeah. Like this is not about, I love magical thinking, but this is [00:27:30] not necessarily what we're talking magic about. Magic. Right. [00:27:31] Dr. Taz: It's [00:27:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: not magic. Right. But you know. I remember [00:27:35] going through tons of, you know, over and over visual imageries with [00:27:40] patients while they were receiving chemo. And it's very, it's very specific. [00:27:44] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:27:45] Mm-hmm. And it's actually the more like aggressive, you can imagine, like tiny soldiers coming [00:27:50] in and you know. Shooting the The cells. Yeah. Or whatever it is. You start to [00:27:55] learn with someone. What they [00:27:56] Dr. Taz: makes is that the primary tool, the sensory visualization, is that the [00:28:00] primary tool for this idea around optimism?[00:28:05] [00:28:05] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I wouldn't say it's the only tool. There's many tools. It's why I have this thing called [00:28:10] things are looking up the deck of cards. Mm-hmm. There's 52 different science-based sort of prompts that are more [00:28:15] like you can just pick one up and they're less than like 15 seconds and they actually have a science-based prompt. [00:28:19] Dr. Deepika Chopra: The good [00:28:20] news is there's so much you can do. Optimism's muscle, that's what I like to say. [00:28:25] Optimism is a muscle and we have to work it out in order to. Gain [00:28:30] to, to build it. [00:28:31] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:28:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so there's many different ways. Sensory-based visual imagery is one [00:28:35] of, I would say, the most significant and powerful ways to sort of [00:28:40] work with a really self-limiting deep or belief. [00:28:44] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:28:44] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:28:45] That is in the way of you feeling hopeful [00:28:48] Dr. Taz: if you're listening to [00:28:50] this and thinking, I know something is often my body, but I [00:28:55] don't know where to start. This is for you. That's why I created the [00:29:00] circle. The circle is my private community where I and my team focus on understanding [00:29:05] your body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity with real [00:29:10] life guidance that you can actually use. [00:29:12] Dr. Taz: This is about clarity and consistency [00:29:15] and support beyond the exam room. And maybe outside of all the different [00:29:20] appointments and experts that you've been running around to, you can try the circle with a one [00:29:25] month trial using the promo code podcast@wholeplus.co [00:29:30] slash circle. Again, [00:29:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: that's whole plus to HOL ppls.co [00:29:35] back slash circle. [00:29:36] Dr. Deepika Chopra: All right, let's jump back into the episode. [00:29:39] Dr. Taz: What about [00:29:40] someone who wants financial success? Like I wanna be a billionaire. Mm-hmm. [00:29:45] You talked about the partner? [00:29:46] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm-hmm. [00:29:47] Dr. Taz: Partner, uh, analogy, like [00:29:49] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:29:49] Dr. Taz: [00:29:50] Does, yeah. Does what they do different than what the patient needs to do? [00:29:54] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:29:55] It works in the same way in the sense that if you, you can be someone that's like, I wanna be [00:30:00] a billionaire. [00:30:00] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Well, that's wonderful. I ask a lot of people in a large group [00:30:05] and I say, how many of you guys wanna win the lottery? And you know, the question is, [00:30:10] do you want to win the lottery? [00:30:11] Dr. Taz: Right? [00:30:11] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Most people will raise their hand and be like, of course I wanna win the lottery. [00:30:14] Dr. Taz: Right? [00:30:14] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And [00:30:15] then all those people, I have them keep their hands up and I'm like, okay, keep your hand up. [00:30:19] Dr. Deepika Chopra: If you bought a [00:30:20] lotto ticket today. You will very promptly see everyone's hands go down. [00:30:25] And to me that makes perfect sense because you don't think you can actually win the [00:30:30] lottery. It is something that is not something you expect. And so your brain is not [00:30:35] putting forth the solution focused part of it, and then you taking an actionable [00:30:40] step to make it happen. [00:30:40] Dr. Deepika Chopra: You can't win the lottery without buying a lottery ticket. [00:30:42] Dr. Taz: Right? Right. [00:30:43] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But you're not gonna buy the lottery [00:30:45] ticket because if you don't think you're gonna win. [00:30:46] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:30:47] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so it's the same sort of thing like I would [00:30:50] then. That's great. If someone can imagine their life as a billionaire, I would [00:30:55] wanna go further and and understand why. [00:30:57] Dr. Deepika Chopra: What is the purpose? What are they gonna gain out of their life [00:31:00] truly with that? And how much better is their life gonna be or different their life gonna be than [00:31:05] what they currently have? And then past that, do they actually expect that? Can [00:31:10] happen for them. [00:31:10] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:31:11] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And if they do, then great. Then we have a place, a [00:31:15] really great place to start from. [00:31:16] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And when you expect it to happen, then you start putting your, your [00:31:20] brain starts coming up with solutions and you put yourself in scenarios or places [00:31:25] or you know, on a path that can actually actionably work [00:31:30] towards that. This takes work. [00:31:30] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:31:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: This is not a [00:31:33] Dr. Taz: for and [00:31:33] Dr. Deepika Chopra: fall in your lap [00:31:33] Dr. Taz: if you Exactly. [00:31:34] Dr. Taz: If you're [00:31:35] doing sensory visualization, do you do it every day? Is like, do you do it a [00:31:40] couple times a day? Mm-hmm. Do you spend time in that space? [00:31:42] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:31:43] Dr. Taz: Like, you know, is [00:31:45] there science or is there any structure mm-hmm. To like how much, how often? How frequently Yeah. To change your [00:31:50] brain. [00:31:50] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yes. You [00:31:50] Dr. Taz: know, so, [00:31:51] Dr. Deepika Chopra: yes. [00:31:52] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And the true sort of the, [00:31:55] the caveat or the main thing there is that it all has to be believable. It [00:32:00] doesn't mean that when you're, you know, thinking about things you have to be. Exactly how [00:32:05] things are today. You can dream and you should, and you should have lofty [00:32:10] goals as well. Um, big, big, lofty goals. But as long as you believe [00:32:15] that you have the, you're in the business of like. [00:32:17] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Being someone that deserves that. [00:32:20] Mm-hmm. Or can get that. Mm-hmm. Or will get that. And the thing is, you don't have to know how or when that [00:32:25] stuff comes. If you truly believe that it's possible, you know, you, you make that [00:32:30] way. And you have to understand that it takes work. [00:32:32] Dr. Taz: So interesting to me, are some [00:32:35] brains not, I don't wanna say capable, but are some [00:32:40] brains born more pre-wired for negativity and more resistant [00:32:45] to optimism than others? [00:32:47] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Great question. I think a lot of people, you know, [00:32:50] go through life thinking, well, I was born a pessimist, or I'm, [00:32:55] I've always been an optimist, or, I am pessimistic because my [00:33:00] mom. And dad, X, Y, Z or my grandma. Right. Or culturally [00:33:03] Dr. Taz: right. [00:33:04] Dr. Deepika Chopra: You know, and [00:33:05] yes, there is a, um, genetic component. There is an irritability, [00:33:09] Dr. Taz: [00:33:10] okay. [00:33:10] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Part of it. But the good news is it's actually much lower than I was thinking. [00:33:15] It varies in research, and the most I've ever seen is 25%. [00:33:18] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:33:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So the [00:33:20] majority is actually a learned process. So you can learn like a muscle, you can [00:33:25] work it out. You can learn to be more optimistic, which is amazing. [00:33:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah. And is that [00:33:30] again, something that someone has to be conscious of? [00:33:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Like if they've modeled [00:33:35] negative, pessimistic behavior? Mm-hmm. Yes. Victim behavior, you know, those type of things [00:33:40] over a long period of time. Mm-hmm. What can they realistically expect in terms of doing [00:33:45] this work and seeing a change? [00:33:46] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I am such a big believer again, [00:33:50] unmeasurable. Yeah. And coming from my CBT background, [00:33:52] Dr. Taz: yeah. [00:33:53] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I believe in big, [00:33:55] lofty goals and small, attainable, reachable goals. And [00:34:00] I, when I, you know, see people in more of a traditional practice, I don't call [00:34:05] it therapy, I call it self-worth work. [00:34:06] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:34:07] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Um, which I feel like is a good way of [00:34:10] understanding that. You're here and your purpose, you're, you're here because [00:34:15] your purpose is, you believe in yourself, you're worth it, and you're willing to do the work. [00:34:19] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So [00:34:20] there's like a accountability and a purpose behind it. Gotcha. Where you're [00:34:25] choosing yourself. Yeah. And that's why I call it self worth work, but I [00:34:30] truly believe that between three and six months, like real change [00:34:34] Dr. Taz: happens, [00:34:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: happens [00:34:35] and can happen. And should happen's. Incredible. I mean, it's small. But your [00:34:40] brain, in order to get to the bigger stuff it takes, it takes these [00:34:45] small steps. [00:34:45] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And once you have these new evidence to kind of build in, so [00:34:50] the best example is sort of like, I'm not here to disprove. [00:34:55] Your negative core belief today. I don't even want to, I [00:35:00] actually wanna validate to you why you have this core belief. I totally get it. You've, [00:35:05] you know, worked on this belief for 30 plus years. [00:35:08] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:35:08] Dr. Deepika Chopra: You've collected all this evidence. [00:35:10] I'm not gonna be here to tell you that. You need to take that belief and check it out the window. [00:35:13] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:35:14] Dr. Deepika Chopra: That would be [00:35:15] like very invalidating. And so let's leave that belief right here. I [00:35:20] know you still hold onto it, but let's start a look at, so let's say that core belief is, I don't like myself, [00:35:25] I do not like myself. [00:35:26] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I, I don't feel like I'm a deserving person of [00:35:30] love. Um, you know, and I'm gonna hold that belief and here's all the examples [00:35:35] why I might ask that person. Like if you could just think of one thing [00:35:40] that you just sort of like about yourself, just one thing. It doesn't mean you're taking that [00:35:45] belief. Like you could still hold that belief. [00:35:46] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And I get it. There's gotta just be one thing that you kind of like about [00:35:50] yourself, and sometimes it's a struggle for people, right? Other people, even though they hold this belief can be like, well, [00:35:55] you know, I guess I like, um, that I'm a loyal friend. [00:36:00] I think I'm a good friend. Or, you know, and then I might ask them like, why do you think you're a good friend? [00:36:04] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And then they might come [00:36:05] up with, you know, examples of, you know, I. I'm always there for my [00:36:10] friend. My friend called me last week with a problem and I listened, or my friend needed a ride the [00:36:15] other day and I was there, so they have some examples of why, right? And so that that is [00:36:20] true. One outta 10. How much do you believe you're a good friend? [00:36:24] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Nine, [00:36:25] eight. Okay, great. So I'd rather them focus on that. That's their affirmation to me. Mm. [00:36:30] It's not, I love myself. I'm a good person. It's, I'm a good friend. [00:36:34] Dr. Taz: So specific. [00:36:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It's [00:36:35] very specific. It's believable. Yeah. And once you say that in front of the mirror three times, I'm a good [00:36:40] friend. [00:36:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:36:40] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Your brain is like, yeah, you are a good friend. [00:36:42] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And it starts to look and soften and open [00:36:45] up to other sort of like examples. And then you might be like. I [00:36:50] like the way I tell a story. [00:36:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:36:51] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Or I'm actually really smart, [00:36:55] or I'm a great reader, and you start coming up with all these things. So maybe now after a couple weeks, you [00:37:00] might have like 15 things that in your mind we're not. [00:37:03] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Groundbreaking, but they [00:37:05] are examples of things you like about yourself is [00:37:06] Dr. Taz: that collecting evidence. [00:37:07] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It's collecting evidence and it's [00:37:10] disproving. So you may not be able to chuck that belief or to change it. You may not be able to [00:37:15] flip it and say, I love myself, which most people will tell you when you say, I just, oh wow. [00:37:19] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:37:20] We've identified. Your core belief is you don't really like yourself. I want you to stand in front of the mirror and say, I love [00:37:25] myself three times before going to bed. That's what most people will tell you to do. Right? Which is right. [00:37:30] Honestly, not a good way to go. But after doing the other thing we [00:37:35] said and really truly saying, I'm a good friend. [00:37:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I'm a great storyteller. Um, [00:37:40] I am a great cook. You know, whatever it is, I love my smile. Whatever it is, [00:37:45] these, these, you know, range of things. Maybe we have 15. I might look at them and be [00:37:50] like, well. You may not be able to say you love yourself right now, but it's pretty hard to [00:37:55] say that you don't like anything about yourself, right? [00:37:57] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Because you just named 15 things. So they're like, [00:38:00] Hmm. So it's sort of like you're at the same time of collecting evidence to try to go to the [00:38:05] direction of believing what you wanna believe. You may not be there yet, but at the same time you're sort of just [00:38:10] dismantling this other thing that you've worked on for so long that actually may not be true.[00:38:15] [00:38:15] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So [00:38:16] Dr. Taz: it, I love that. Well, it sounds. So hopeful [00:38:20] for so many. [00:38:20] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:38:21] Dr. Taz: That, you know, and again, I think what it does, it undoes this [00:38:25] whole like affirmations. Yes. The said map, you know, that whole culture, toxic [00:38:30] positivity. Yes. I know you probably have an issue with toxic positivity. [00:38:33] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I do. I, I honestly, I [00:38:35] understand it and I have a lot of empathy for it. [00:38:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: 'cause I think a lot of times. When you are [00:38:40] acting on toxic positivity, whether it's talking to yourself or others, or your [00:38:45] friends or loved ones are talking to you, I truly believe 90% of the time it comes [00:38:50] from good intention. The intention is just that we as humans are [00:38:55] so uncomfortable. By negative emotion. [00:38:59] Dr. Deepika Chopra: We don't [00:39:00] want someone to feel bad. We don't wanna be around for it. 'cause what that might bring up for [00:39:05] ourselves, right? But we also just don't know what to do with it. And so we sort of, from good [00:39:10] intention, we wanna help and fix. Whatever's going on, and I'll say nine times [00:39:15] out of 10, when someone comes to you with something that they're really struggling with, they're not [00:39:20] actually looking for a solution. [00:39:21] Dr. Deepika Chopra: They're looking to be heard. [00:39:22] Dr. Taz: Mm, [00:39:23] Dr. Deepika Chopra: they're looking to be met. They're [00:39:25] looking to sort of have a safe space to just vent. They're looking for [00:39:30] safety, [00:39:30] Dr. Taz: so toxic positivity. It doesn't allow for that. [00:39:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: No, [00:39:34] Dr. Taz: it doesn't [00:39:35] allow for vulnerability. No. Or trust [00:39:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: or, no, it doesn't allow for intimacy. [00:39:38] Dr. Taz: Intimacy [00:39:39] Dr. Deepika Chopra: or [00:39:40] real connection. [00:39:40] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And I think that to, the thing about toxic positivity is [00:39:45] that is what it, what bothers me is [00:39:50] it is actually the vilification. Of the human range of [00:39:55] emotions. Mm. And we as humans, were built to experience the full range of emotion, even the ones that [00:40:00] don't feel good, [00:40:00] Dr. Taz: right? [00:40:01] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Like we were meant to have anger, sadness, fear, stress, [00:40:05] worry, rage, sometimes mourning, grief. [00:40:09] Dr. Deepika Chopra: All of these [00:40:10] things are normal human emotions. They're part of our human range of emotion and [00:40:15] toxic positivity kind of just says like, there's no space for that, that can exist [00:40:20] and you're sort of up against a wall because no human is able to experience [00:40:25] just the positive range of emotion. They may be able, the goal is to be able to [00:40:30] navigate through all the emotions, [00:40:32] Dr. Taz: not [00:40:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: not [00:40:33] Dr. Taz: suppress exactly. [00:40:33] Dr. Taz: It's just as bad as emotional [00:40:35] suppression [00:40:35] Dr. Deepika Chopra: in [00:40:35] Dr. Taz: a way. [00:40:35] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Exactly. [00:40:36] Dr. Taz: Interesting [00:40:36] Dr. Deepika Chopra: entirely. [00:40:38] Dr. Taz: Will you also talk, I think in the book, if [00:40:40] I'm correct, you talk about awe. Mm-hmm. The importance of awe, right? Yeah. Talk that [00:40:44] Dr. Deepika Chopra: That's another great tool. [00:40:44] Dr. Taz: [00:40:45] Yeah. Talk to us about that. I love these tools. They're amazing. So talk to us, talk to us about the role of [00:40:50] awe in creating the key, core pieces of, uh.[00:40:55] [00:40:55] Dr. Taz: Optimism. Yeah. Right. Which are resilience and curiosity. [00:40:58] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yes. [00:41:00] So awe actually works as sort of this antidote for anxiety. [00:41:05] [00:41:05] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:41:05] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And, and depression. So the reason, and, and there was like [00:41:10] this study that I thought was so interesting and the way that they sort of came about [00:41:15] understanding that awe could be this tool was they were looking at astronauts [00:41:20] and. [00:41:20] Dr. Deepika Chopra: You can imagine being an astronaut, no matter how much you train for it, is probably a pretty [00:41:25] stressful and anxious, anxiety producing type of profession. [00:41:30] You're in this rocket. Mm-hmm. Which seems quite small. [00:41:35] Um, you're going to space and no matter probably if you've been there before or [00:41:40] not, it's. [00:41:41] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Exciting. Yeah. And it's something drew you to it, but it's also kind of [00:41:45] scary. [00:41:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah. A [00:41:45] Dr. Deepika Chopra: little and yeah, a little bit and claustrophobic even. And [00:41:50] all the things. And what they found was when these astronauts were up in [00:41:55] space, like something was protective, something was protecting that. It was like, can you [00:42:00] imagine anything more awesome or awe inducing than seeing space? [00:42:04] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm-hmm. [00:42:05] Like I can't even fathom that. And so this idea of being in a state [00:42:10] of awe is being in a state where you. Are a [00:42:15] very small part of something much bigger. And so it's being truly [00:42:20] inspired and sort of taken aback emotionally and cognitively by [00:42:25] something, and at the same time feeling a very small part of something much [00:42:30] larger. [00:42:30] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:42:30] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so when you think about that it, especially for someone going through more [00:42:35] depressive like symptoms, a lot of times that's the opposite. You, your feelings and [00:42:40] emotions and what you're struggling with is at the forefront. You're just thinking about that [00:42:45] and if you are able to step away a little bit and feel like you're part of something bigger and [00:42:50] that this you, the, you is very small, but you're part of something much bigger and you're [00:42:55] being inspired by it. [00:42:56] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It could be a piece of beautiful music. It could transcend you. It could be. [00:43:00] Being in nature, looking at art, um, listening to someone you [00:43:05] really admire, speak, or whatever that is, or go into space. Yeah, putting [00:43:10] yourself in these intentional moments of awe are really protective [00:43:15] from an anxiety standpoint, from a depressive standpoint. [00:43:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And it sort of, [00:43:20] again, helps you feel as part of something bigger, larger, [00:43:25] um, part of a larger community and you're not focusing on your. [00:43:30] Very pervasive. [00:43:31] Dr. Taz: Like right here. [00:43:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yes. Worry. [00:43:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:43:33] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And for me, I [00:43:35] think what is interesting is you don't have to go to space or obviously be in the middle of the [00:43:40] redwoods or something like that to feel awe. [00:43:42] Dr. Deepika Chopra: You can even, I, I like to think of it sometimes as [00:43:45] like. I use my Pinterest for it sometimes, or the save button [00:43:50] on, you know, social media when I see something like a beautiful image of [00:43:55] somewhere I've never been or something. I love the idea of Neuroaesthetics. Mm-hmm. I study that a lot. [00:44:00] But it could be a texture, it could be a color, it could be, um, some type of [00:44:05] interior. [00:44:05] Dr. Deepika Chopra: You know that really like speaks to you. For me, music is my, mm-hmm. [00:44:09] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:44:10] [00:44:10] Dr. Deepika Chopra: My number one tool, it always has been since I was a kid. I'm super moved by music. [00:44:15] I'm one of those people that can get the goosebumps. Yeah. Immediately. [00:44:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:44:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: But. All [00:44:20] these are things that can put you in a moment in awe. And so [00:44:25] collecting some of these things to intentionally, like, what are the things that put you in awe? [00:44:28] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Start collecting that. [00:44:30] Write that down. Start adding them to your day. [00:44:32] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:44:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Like when you wanna have a cup of coffee at four, [00:44:35] either with it or instead of it, like do some, some awe. [00:44:40] You know, like intentionally a, A tool. A A tool. I [00:44:42] Dr. Taz: love [00:44:43] Dr. Deepika Chopra: that. Yeah. Go microdose on some [00:44:45] Ah, [00:44:45] Dr. Taz: you go microdose a that's, yeah. I wish you could bottle that, right? [00:44:47] Dr. Taz: I know. Here you go. [00:44:48] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I know. We'll [00:44:48] Dr. Taz: take that. [00:44:49] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yeah. [00:44:49] Dr. Taz: [00:44:50] Uh, what's the 12 second rule? [00:44:52] Dr. Deepika Chopra: So this actually has come from a. [00:44:55] A lot of research I've seen, but mainly, um, a [00:45:00] neuroscientist who came on my podcast, um, Dr. Hanson, he came in [00:45:05] and taught me this idea of the 12 second rule. And it's amazing. It's about holding a [00:45:10] positive memory or image or idea in your brain for just 12 seconds. [00:45:14] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:45:14] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:45:15] Like it's enough for your brain to actually really marinate in it, and then. [00:45:20] Wire itself to look for something else positive. So it's a practice that's simple. It's [00:45:25] 12 seconds. But the funny thing is you think about that and it's 12 seconds, but it's [00:45:30] so counter to what we automatically do as humans, we are so much more [00:45:35] likely to spend without intention. [00:45:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: More than 12 seconds on something that didn't go [00:45:40] right. [00:45:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:45:40] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Something that we want to do better at or something [00:45:45] really bad that happened and we very rarely take something like joy, [00:45:50] a feeling of joy or some sort of positive memory or mood. We, we often remember our [00:45:55] memories of. Things that didn't go right for us, or mistakes we made, [00:46:00] or accidents or things like that. [00:46:01] Dr. Deepika Chopra: We, if you think back to your childhood, those [00:46:05] memories really stick out. It's the like small sort of happy, joyful memories that just [00:46:10] worked out that are gone. [00:46:11] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:46:12] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And so your brain's like, I don't need to hold onto this 'cause I'm not doing [00:46:15] anything with it. But what we've learned is it's. Very powerful for this type of practice to [00:46:20] actually hold onto those things intentionally. [00:46:21] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm. So the next time you feel a good [00:46:25] feeling or you have a flash of a memory that's positive, try to challenge yourself. Put a timer on for [00:46:30] 12 seconds. [00:46:30] Dr. Taz: 12 seconds, and try [00:46:31] Dr. Deepika Chopra: to like stay in it. [00:46:32] Dr. Taz: Oh, I love these tools. All right, let's do one. Okay. [00:46:35] More. I love all of them. [00:46:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Adult version of I Spy. [00:46:40] What in the world, what is, what's going on there? [00:46:43] Dr. Deepika Chopra: This actually [00:46:45] came from my work as a grad student when I was in the psycho-oncology [00:46:50] program, and it worked so well for anxiety and. [00:46:55] Uh, although I don't have a diagnosable anxiety right. Condition. [00:46:59] Dr. Taz: [00:47:00] Right. [00:47:00] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I, and I think we all sort of veer towards these different almost [00:47:05] diagnoses because that's what diagnosis are. [00:47:06] Dr. Deepika Chopra: There are normal emotions just sort of taken to another level that might be [00:47:10] pervasive. I'm definitely someone that can err on the side of anxiety and [00:47:15] that has gone up since I have had children. [00:47:17] Dr. Taz: Mm, [00:47:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: for sure. Mm-hmm. Um. [00:47:20] This works so well. Well, I think [00:47:21] Dr. Taz: a lot of moms think [00:47:22] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yes. [00:47:22] Dr. Taz: Go through that [00:47:23] Dr. Deepika Chopra: for sure. [00:47:23] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Absolutely. [00:47:24] Dr. Taz: Yeah, [00:47:24] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:47:25] absolutely. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and it's actually something that has stuck around for [00:47:30] me. Mm-hmm. Through all of my, I mean, I just think that's the state that I'm sort of in. I have more work cut out [00:47:35] for myself now, but I. An anxious state worry has really like [00:47:40] seeped in, in a bigger way than it ever has since I've become a mom. [00:47:44] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Um, and yeah, I think [00:47:45] that is common with a lot of mothers and parents in general. I think for my husband too, more so for [00:47:50] me, but, um, the adult I spy game is so great. So the basis of [00:47:55] it is that you, all of us have a limited attentional capacity. [00:48:00] I think we go around the world thinking we just have like an unlimited amount of like. [00:48:04] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:48:05] Time and energy that our brain can focus on things. But actually it's a limited attentional capacity. [00:48:10] And that's important because when you're doing some of this work intentionally, you can [00:48:15] actually tell your brain in some scenarios when you're being intentional, what you want it to [00:48:20] focus on, and you can utilize enough of the attentional capacity that it actually [00:48:25] cannot focus on whatever the worry was or the loop or the rumination you were doing before. [00:48:29] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:48:30] So where this came up was. Some of my patients pre-surgery and [00:48:35] right before they were going into surgery, they would obvi, they would have a lot of anticipatory anxiety [00:48:40] and like literally I'd be standing with some of them as they were being wheeled. And I would be like, okay, [00:48:45] let's play a game. I want you to look around the room and I want you to, [00:48:50] without any judgment, without telling a story, I want you to just name out loud [00:48:55] everything that you see. [00:48:56] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Do it for 30 seconds. Mm-hmm. And so it might just be like. I see a green [00:49:00] plant, I see white curtains, I see a book. And then your [00:49:05] brain might go like, I wonder what that book is. That book reminds me. And then you stop yourself and you're like, wait, I'm not telling a [00:49:10] story. [00:49:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:49:10] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Move on. Um, you know, I see a cup, [00:49:15] I see a, an orange vase, and you keep [00:49:20] going on. [00:49:20] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And what we know about the brain is if you see something and then you label it. In [00:49:25] your brain, and then you label it out loud. It's utilizing enough attentional capacity [00:49:30] where you have put a break or a pause in what you were ruminating about before. Yeah. So it's like a [00:49:35] healthy distraction game. [00:49:36] Dr. Taz: Got [00:49:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: it. [00:49:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And when you're done with it. You [00:49:40] might go back to your, your worries, but it's sort of taken the potency out [00:49:45] and it acts as like a reset button. So I use that a lot for some [00:49:50] clients that are, you know, prone to panic. [00:49:52] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:49:53] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Um, just anxiety and [00:49:55] worry in general or ruminating over something like Loop. Mm-hmm. [00:49:58] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And we all sort of do that at times. [00:50:00] Right. So it's a really, [00:50:00] Dr. Taz: yeah. [00:50:01] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It's a, it's just a reset. It's a really fun, A [00:50:04] Dr. Taz: [00:50:05] quick way [00:50:05] Dr. Deepika Chopra: to [00:50:05] Dr. Taz: resay [00:50:05] Dr. Deepika Chopra: quick, simple, healthy distraction technique. [00:50:08] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh, I love all [00:50:10] these tools and I have so much more I wanna ask you about what can we expect in your book, [00:50:15] the Power of Real Optimism. [00:50:16] Dr. Taz: Talk to us about that. [00:50:18] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Everything that we just talked about in more, [00:50:20] [00:50:20] Dr. Taz: I want [00:50:20] Dr. Deepika Chopra: it Real optimism. The reason I wrote this book is. [00:50:25] Actually not because I'm the most optimistic person. I actually wrote [00:50:30] this book because I'm not, so, I am known as the optimism doctor, but I'm [00:50:35] very transparent to share. I'm not the most naturally optimistic person, and probably [00:50:40] in my like small microcosm of family, I probably rate the lowest, [00:50:44] Dr. Taz: really? [00:50:44] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm-hmm. [00:50:45] On optimism, but. I am just like everybody else in the trenches using the [00:50:50] tools and science. I love science and my sort of passion is taking [00:50:55] science and putting that into everyday practical, actionable [00:51:00] tools that make sense for real humans living a real life. And so [00:51:05] it is packed with those type of things that are science-based and the tools. [00:51:09] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:51:10] Um, and I think that the important piece that. With this book is, [00:51:15] it's really to send out the message that no one is immune to struggle. [00:51:20] This book is not about manifesting a life of 24 7 bliss, [00:51:24] Dr. Taz: right? [00:51:24] Dr. Deepika Chopra: [00:51:25] It's actually about meeting you where you seriously are at in the moment, and it's [00:51:30] real optimism techniques for real people living real lives today. [00:51:34] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mm-hmm. [00:51:35] With everything in between it, and especially when times are hard, what do you hope this book will [00:51:40] do? I hope that this book will, uh, you know, my, my big thing [00:51:45] when I work with clients is I, what I've always been passionate about is I think after every session [00:51:50] it kind of became an obsession for me that I wanted after every session for someone to [00:51:55] have an aha moment in their life, in their daily life or something that [00:52:00] they like, something that could connect, something they learned in the science, that they could be like, whoa.[00:52:05] [00:52:05] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Yes, I can illustrate that in my mind. And I wanted them to walk away with a [00:52:10] tool every session that they could then do that following week without [00:52:15] having to do anything with me. So it's self-mastery, and then they could collect both of those things every [00:52:20] week. And that's always what I've been passionate about. [00:52:22] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And that's what I hope from this book is that you [00:52:25] walk away with not just one or two, but. Many, many [00:52:30] tools that you can revisit and continuously keep getting more tools from, [00:52:35] no matter what point you are in your life, what season you're in, whether it's a tough one or [00:52:40] you know, you're smooth sailing for now. [00:52:42] Dr. Deepika Chopra: 'cause everything is seasons and everything's temporary [00:52:45] and I, I hope that by the end of the book everybody is able to sort of. [00:52:50] Relax their shoulders down and say like, wow, I'm actually more optimistic [00:52:55] than I thought I was. [00:52:55] Dr. Taz: Oh, I love [00:52:56] Dr. Deepika Chopra: that. All right, final question for today. A, [00:53:00] I want the book, the B. Uh, what makes you whole? [00:53:03] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Ooh, what makes me [00:53:05] whole? You know, I think for me. An answer to this [00:53:10] would've been different in different sort of seasons in my life, but right now, I [00:53:15] think what truly makes me feel whole is when I feel connected to my sense of [00:53:20] purpose, and not just in an existential level, but like. [00:53:25] I like to really practice seasonally the [00:53:30] sort of exercise of like what my purpose is right now and allowing myself for that to [00:53:35] change. [00:53:35] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And as long as I'm living a life, which by the way does not have to mean that [00:53:40] every single thing you do, like what you do for a living, what you're paid for, sometimes we don't have control [00:53:45] over those things and we have obligations and we have, you know, we have mouths to [00:53:50] feed and whatever that is, that might not translate, but. [00:53:53] Dr. Deepika Chopra: If everything in [00:53:55] some way is related back to sort of what my purpose is right now, and I [00:54:00] know what my purpose is, then wait, what's your purpose? So it's, it's [00:54:05] interesting. I literally just did, I, I do, I take clients through this practice called [00:54:10] Ikigai. [00:54:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Uh, [00:54:11] Dr. Deepika Chopra: it's a Japanese Okinawa and it's in the book, um, if you [00:54:15] wanna. [00:54:15] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Know how to do it, but it is an ancient Okinawa practice that helps you [00:54:20] understand what you're, why you get outta bed every day. [00:54:22] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:54:22] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And there's tons of research to show why [00:54:25] that's important to live an optimal life is to know that. The interesting thing that just I saw the other [00:54:30] day research wise was we know that about like. [00:54:32] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Adults, but there was this study done that it's [00:54:35] equally, if not more important for teens to understand what their purpose is. [00:54:38] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:54:39] Dr. Deepika Chopra: And when is the [00:54:40] last time we talked to our teens about what their purpose was? Right. Right. But it's so protective from [00:54:45] a proactive mental health standpoint to understand what your purpose is. [00:54:48] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:54:48] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Mine right now is to [00:54:50] inspire. [00:54:50] Dr. Taz: To inspire. Yeah. Well, [00:54:51] Dr. Deepika Chopra: I [00:54:52] Dr. Taz: feel inspired today. So your purpose is, is [00:54:55] accomplished here. It's, it's in action, for sure. No, I feel truly inspired by this. I think [00:55:00] it's so hopeful, I think at a micro level for people that are, you know, [00:55:05] stuck. Yeah, right. It's. Practical little tools Yes. [00:55:08] Dr. Taz: To help move them forward [00:55:10] at a macro level, our hospitals [00:55:12] Dr. Deepika Chopra: mm-hmm. [00:55:13] Dr. Taz: Our exam rooms. Yes. [00:55:15] You know, even our own clinics, you know, like where can we put some of [00:55:20] this into place when people are finding themselves in situations or positions that are. [00:55:25] Fearful. Yep. Anxiety provoking, or may move them towards a more [00:55:30] negative space. [00:55:30] Dr. Taz: So I think there's so much opportunity for this. I can't wait to see how everybody [00:55:35] resonates with it. I can't wait for you to read it once it's at out, it's, [00:55:36] Dr. Deepika Chopra: yeah, it's [00:55:36] Dr. Taz: out on March [00:55:37] Dr. Deepika Chopra: 10th. [00:55:38] Dr. Taz: March 10th, okay. Yeah. Everywhere books [00:55:40] are sold. [00:55:40] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Everywhere books are sold. [00:55:41] Dr. Taz: Okay. And it's available for pre-order. [00:55:43] Dr. Deepika Chopra: It's available for pre-order now, and it's [00:55:45] available. [00:55:46] Dr. Deepika Chopra: March 10th. [00:55:47] Dr. Taz: All right. Real optimism, the power of real [00:55:50] optimism. Lots of great practical tools. I think all of us could be [00:55:55] better and learn more by practicing some of these. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode and [00:56:00] that you are going to practice optimism moving forward, and we'll share this [00:56:05] episode with the people that you love. [00:56:06] Dr. Taz: I'll see you next time. [00:56:07] Dr. Deepika Chopra: Before you go, take a second to reflect [00:56:10] on what stood out for you today. Then if you can leave a quick review [00:56:15] wherever you're listening, it really helps other people discover Whole Plus and start their own [00:56:20] healing journey. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Dr. [00:56:23] Dr. Taz: Taz md. I [00:56:25] love hearing how these episodes are supporting you.