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"No" is a Complete Sentence: Setting Boundaries Without Guilt · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:05
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
• 0:07
  Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:13
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:20
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:29
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
• 0:34
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:35
  Mary: Hey, Violets, Welcome to the show.
• 0:40
  Mary: Okay, I am totally fangirling today.
• 0:42
  Mary: Let me give you some background.
• 0:45
  Mary: If you listen to me semi-regularly, you know I left my beloved career to save my sanity from the antics of one specific person, but that is a story for another day.
• 0:56
  Mary: One of them is this podcast.
• 1:02
  Mary: I started it partly because of my experience with the antics person, because, honestly, that experience stole my voice Even when I did speak up.
• 1:10
  Mary: The people that could help didn't, but I think social scripts kept me from speaking up in a way that might have actually made people hear me.
• 1:18
  Mary: Did you ever try to speak and maybe inside you were shouting, but your voice was no more than a whisper?
• 1:24
  Mary: That was me, and after that experience, plus hearing the stories of so many of my female clients who kept themselves small, to the detriment of their mental and physical health.
• 1:34
  Mary: I never, ever wanted another woman to feel like she couldn't take up her space and use her voice.
• 1:39
  Mary: So here's a very cool bonus I didn't expect from podcasting.
• 1:45
  Mary: I have met some of the most amazing, gifted and powerful women.
• 1:47
  Mary: Some of them are other hosts and many of them have been my guests.
• 1:51
  Mary: My guest today is someone I discovered through a podcast workshop day.
• 1:56
  Mary: She talked about how to pitch yourself to be a guest on someone else's podcast in a very down-to-earth and no bullshit way, which I just found out is one of her favorite words, which, and I'll be honest, in a world where I swear, 99% of people do one thing to sell another.
• 2:13
  Mary: She was just herself, Real and practical, which are two of my favorite qualities in a human.
• 2:19
  Mary: I ended up subscribing to her email, then purchasing a behind-the-scenes membership, then using the pitch strategies she taught to invite her to my show and ask to be a guest on her show and, to my delight, she said yes to both.
• 2:33
  Mary: Okay, so let me tell you why I am fangirling right now.
• 2:36
  Mary: This woman is 100% her amazing zany self from her t-shirts to her podcasts, to her emails to the work she does, from her t-shirts to her podcasts, to her emails to the work she does.
• 2:43
  Mary: Best of all, she sort of reminds me of me, except with way more experience, kids and a very cool accent.
• 2:51
  Mary: I mean, I can do a bit of British, but not Australian, although you will get a lovely hit of that from her today.
• 2:58
  Mary: Suzanne Culberg is an intuitive truth-teller, professional boundary slayer and the voice behind I Know Things, a suite of real raw readings for women who are tired of putting themselves last.
• 3:09
  Mary: A former coach, Suzanne now helps people pleasers detox from external validation, reclaim their energy and say no without spiraling into guilt, shame or second guessing, which is very key to that whole concept.
• 3:24
  Mary: She currently lives in Sydney, Australia.
• 3:26
  Mary: That's going to be changing soon, with her husband, two kids and more books than shelf space which another thing I can relate to.
• 3:32
  Mary: I have stacks everywhere.
• 3:34
  Mary: Her love language is sarcasm and she firmly believes that no is a complete sentence.
• 3:39
  Mary: Welcome to no Shrinking Violet, Suzanne.
• 3:42
  Suzanne: Thank you, mary.
• 3:43
  Suzanne: That's big shoes to step up to, but I'll have to go and change that line now because of the move.
• 3:49
  Suzanne: I actually now have shelf space and I'm on book ban August and maybe even September in terms of buying new stuff, but it's amazing how much I've managed to declutter, because it's like, do I want to pack this and then unpack it?
• 4:01
  Suzanne: Nope, it's gone.
• 4:02
  Mary: Mm-hmm.
• 4:03
  Mary: Yeah, moving does wonders for simplifying, for sure.
• 4:14
  Mary: A hundred percent, yeah, okay, so I have 3,000 questions, but I feel like this interview is so well-timed because so your podcast is the Nope Coach, right, but you are sort of now stepping back from that, the coaching part right, I'm keeping the moniker because I like it.
• 4:25
  Suzanne: It's funny how you just get attached to it and if you go to my website, at least now it changes.
• 4:30
  Suzanne: The very first question is are you a coach?
• 4:32
  Suzanne: Nope, because people are like why are you keeping it?
• 4:34
  Suzanne: I'm like because it's still me.
• 4:36
  Suzanne: I still 100% say no, I still speak my mind.
• 4:39
  Suzanne: I just don't do the coaching part and just the nope sounds weird, like the nothing from the Narnia movies.
• 4:45
  Suzanne: No, not Narnia, what was it?
• 4:46
  Suzanne: Never Ending Story.
• 4:47
  Mary: Yeah, no, I love it, I think it's perfect.
• 4:50
  Mary: But the one thing that I really think is very cool and I honestly I'm not a stalker, but I do know some things because of your emails you sort of made not a U-turn, but you went in a different direction with things.
• 5:07
  Mary: Right, you're focusing on much more, on, I think, what lights you up, and you've simplified what you're doing to help people, right.
• 5:13
  Suzanne: Significantly so I had so much filler in my business and I think many of us do, because we spend a lot of time, energy and money getting the certifications or creating the things so we kind of like poured them.
• 5:26
  Suzanne: It's actually I hadn't made the connection between getting rid of stuff in my business and also getting rid of stuff in my actual life.
• 5:32
  Suzanne: It's like, have I used this in the last 10 years?
• 5:35
  Suzanne: No, but you know why are you holding onto it?
• 5:38
  Suzanne: And the same within business.
• 5:39
  Suzanne: So I had, and I still have, like they're not gone from the plane of existence, they're just gone from my website or wherever.
• 5:46
  Suzanne: So many courses and programs and things and I think a lot of business owners we make things and it's like but is this the most potent example of my work?
• 5:55
  Suzanne: Or if somebody bought this today and had questions, would I be like I'm down or like, oh, not that again it was kind of like a big declutter from that point of view as well.
• 6:06
  Mary: Yeah, and what you do fascinates me and I'm always like, do I want to venture into this?
• 6:12
  Mary: Can you explain a little bit what?
• 6:14
  Mary: How do you work with people?
• 6:16
  Mary: Because it's so intriguing to me.
• 6:18
  Suzanne: It's funny you have that question.
• 6:19
  Suzanne: A lot of people ask me something along that lines.
• 6:22
  Suzanne: They're like I'm kind of interested, I'm kind of not, and because I am a recovered, I don't like recovering because it still ties my identity to it.
• 6:29
  Suzanne: Because I'm a recovered people pleaser and I tend to attract a lot of people in the people pleasing world, I know people, if they buy one or they sign up for something, feel awkward about either not buying again or quitting.
• 6:42
  Suzanne: And I'm like'm like in my world.
• 6:44
  Suzanne: You can honestly come and go as you please and it's most welcome because I'm tired of people being suck.
• 6:50
  Suzanne: It in's not quite the right word, but you know I'm very direct.
• 6:53
  Suzanne: As in.
• 6:53
  Suzanne: You know you buy.
• 6:54
  Suzanne: I don't know how many people on the internet.
• 6:56
  Suzanne: Their free stuff's so cool and you buy something.
• 6:58
  Suzanne: You're like, oh man, their free stuff was better and now I can't get out because I'm trapped in this forever.
• 7:02
  Suzanne: Anyway, what I do, I don't think I ever would have got here directly.
• 7:07
  Suzanne: So I don't know how big a deeper, darker stalk you've done.
• 7:10
  Suzanne: But originally I went to medical school, so I have a very Western scientific background training and my husband he's not a doctor but he's an engineer, so he's still in that world.
• 7:22
  Suzanne: And when I started to do what actually is I do now, he's like people would pay you for that.
• 7:27
  Suzanne: It's so weird.
• 7:28
  Suzanne: I was very much the same.
• 7:31
  Suzanne: So I think I loved how you said you turn 180, whatever in my life.
• 7:35
  Suzanne: It's like I don't think I could have got from there to here in one step.
• 7:38
  Suzanne: It's just too bizarre.
• 7:39
  Suzanne: And if you wound me back 20 years and said you're actually not going to be a doctor, you're going to be like an intuitive healer, I would have been like what are you on?
• 7:47
  Suzanne: I think you need some sort of assessment.
• 7:50
  Suzanne: So anyway, what I do is I'm very highly intuitive.
• 7:55
  Suzanne: My husband, although he doesn't believe in any of that sort of stuff, has nicknamed me Cassandra because, like the oracle of time, where she just spoke the truth and nobody believed her and then, to their peril, I just know things.
• 8:08
  Suzanne: I always have just really bizarre things.
• 8:10
  Suzanne: I'll come out with them, and it was not encouraged in my family growing up and it certainly wasn't encouraged in the field that I first went into.
• 8:21
  Suzanne: But when I had my original business, I was a coach and my website person, because I'm not very techie.
• 8:29
  Suzanne: Like I, have very limited time to work in my business.
• 8:31
  Suzanne: I have young kids, it's a kind of also another full-time job, so I've always outsourced all the tech side of my business.
• 8:38
  Suzanne: She was like you got to do something with your intuition.
• 8:41
  Suzanne: And I was like, anyway, long story short, on a dare, because she dared me, because you know I'll do most things.
• 8:47
  Suzanne: Once she's like, why don't you put it together as an offering?
• 8:49
  Suzanne: And I was like, but nobody will even understand what it is.
• 8:52
  Suzanne: So I did, but only to the people who are currently working with me.
• 8:55
  Suzanne: So everyone who was on my list, who I have a client tag, I send it through.
• 8:58
  Suzanne: I had three spots and I thought that will keep her quiet.
• 9:01
  Suzanne: I would have fulfilled my dare and you know, anyway all three sold out like within like 10 minutes and I'd never had a sold out offer until then.
• 9:08
  Suzanne: So I was like, oh my goodness, and anyway it's become a thing.
• 9:11
  Suzanne: So I can do it individually or I can do it for a group, and so for the group one.
• 9:17
  Suzanne: Each Monday morning at least Australian time, some of you guys it's Sunday evening I tune in.
• 9:21
  Suzanne: Evening I tune in, I use Oracle cards or poems or whatever I have handy and I get like a message for the group Now, much like a horoscope, because people understand that it's not all going to be relevant to you when it's a group thing and it's just kind of unfiltered, often sweary.
• 9:40
  Suzanne: Sometimes I sing I can't carry a tune in a bucket, so like, prepare your ears accordingly, but whatever comes through comes through.
• 9:46
  Suzanne: It goes for about 20 minutes and it is so much fun because it's not like where am I picking them up and where am I dropping them off and where is the client journey, and it doesn't need to make sense.
• 9:58
  Suzanne: And sometimes I send them and I'm like that was totally off the wall.
• 10:02
  Suzanne: I'm waiting for people to go, what was that?
• 10:04
  Suzanne: And they're like, oh my God, it was the best.
• 10:05
  Suzanne: Because if I, especially if I'm reading something, I haven't pre-read it, I've just grabbed something.
• 10:09
  Suzanne: And once there was a story about is it Bluebeard, the fairy tale, who basically like murdered all his previous wives, I didn't know the story and I'm reading it and it's getting darker and darker and darker and I'm like, oh God, I can't believe I can send this.
• 10:21
  Suzanne: But my thing to myself is, sort it say it, I just record it and I send it and whatever the most replied to, the most responded to won, and so it's like, I think, in life we become so filtered, and so, you know, choosing our words selectively, that we lose the meaning, and I think that's what people appreciate about this, because it's just yeah, whatever, anything goes.
• 10:43
  Mary: Yeah, I love the idea.
• 10:45
  Mary: I think it's it's so funny because social media we're so out there and then it's that sort of in juxtaposition of like being very private and this seems to be.
• 10:59
  Mary: It's so authentic, like it's kind of right in the middle, I think, when you for me, it's almost like something clicks into place.
• 11:06
  Mary: Like sometimes, when I write an email for my email list, I'm like this is very weird, like cause I tend to use plants and nature and I'm like this is this analogy?
• 11:15
  Mary: Like I get this as a gardener, but will other people and it's exactly what you're saying Like those things.
• 11:21
  Mary: When it really is aligned with what you believe, then your people come to you, which is so cool.
• 11:28
  Suzanne: And like the group ones are a bit different because there's, you know, 10, maybe 20.
• 11:32
  Suzanne: I think the most I've had is 79 people.
• 11:34
  Suzanne: So the bigger the group is, the more I fear, like is this going to be relevant to everyone?
• 11:39
  Suzanne: But the individual ones?
• 11:41
  Suzanne: I remember one time and because I do these calls, like I don't ask people any details the personal one if they've got a question, but an open-ended question, not like am I going to find the man or win the lottery?
• 11:52
  Suzanne: No, no, no.
• 11:52
  Suzanne: But so this lady, she didn't have a question, she said whatever comes through, I hadn't met her before, she hadn't been a client, didn't recognize her name.
• 11:59
  Suzanne: Anyway, I'm doing the reading and what's really coming through is like, but this woman's going to do something with a singing bowl.
• 12:05
  Suzanne: And my logical self is like what if she doesn't know what a singing bowl is?
• 12:09
  Suzanne: But my rule to myself is sort it, say it.
• 12:12
  Suzanne: If it comes up, I just say it.
• 12:14
  Suzanne: And anyway, I say it, I send it off.
• 12:17
  Suzanne: I'm like she's going to ask for a refund, like and I'm very clear on it no refunds.
• 12:20
  Suzanne: But it doesn't mean people don't ask.
• 12:21
  Suzanne: But anyway, long story short, she writes back and she's like oh my gosh, not only do I have a singing bowl, like, she has a suite of things that she's recorded that she's never released publicly because of all her hangups and everything.
• 12:34
  Suzanne: And she's like would you be willing to listen to one of them?
• 12:37
  Suzanne: And I was like of course she has the voice of an angel.
• 12:39
  Suzanne: I was like woman, what are you doing?
• 12:41
  Suzanne: So you know, sometimes someone else's invitation reflection is the thing that you need the prompt.
• 12:49
  Suzanne: And I was like you can sing like that and you're not publishing this.
• 12:53
  Suzanne: And I can't sing worth a damn, and I think, because it's all in our heads.
• 12:56
  Suzanne: So all I have to say like and there's another time the person I knew well.
• 13:00
  Suzanne: So sometimes it's harder when I know them well, because is it what I'm getting or is it what I already know about them?
• 13:05
  Suzanne: And I had this whole thing about KFC and I know this woman's a vegan and I'm like can vegans get anything at KFC Like Kentucky fried chicken?
• 13:13
  Suzanne: For anyone who doesn't know, I don't even think they have a salad without chicken in it.
• 13:16
  Suzanne: Anyway, I'm talking about KFC and I'm like she's going to be like Suzanne, what are you on?
• 13:20
  Suzanne: And she's like I'm wanting to rebrand my business and I want to use the KFC red, but I wasn't sure, so this was the.
• 13:28
  Suzanne: So it's kind of like when you get an inkling about someone and like I'm not saying going around and telling everyone what's in your head, cause that's you know.
• 13:35
  Suzanne: But even in in like day-to-day life, I will say to people or give them invitation, like I've got something, do you want it?
• 13:42
  Suzanne: Not just spurting what comes through, because it's not always welcome your insights, your thoughts, like I have a really good friend who's a dream interpreter and boundaries is the other thing I do.
• 13:51
  Suzanne: And you know it's like you need to ask me before you dump all your stuff, because I believe we're all different, but I believe dreams are more about the dream than the person they're about.
• 14:01
  Suzanne: So if someone's had a big dream about me, I don't want to know.
• 14:06
  Suzanne: It's kind of like inviting and saying, would you like?
• 14:09
  Suzanne: Rather than you know meaning well, but dumping your stuff onto someone else, and that's why I like with the readings no-transcript.
• 14:33
  Mary: Well, what it makes me think of is I've had people say to me, because they know that the work I've done as a therapist, they'll say are you analyzing me right now?
• 14:38
  Mary: And somebody actually got me a shirt that said I'm psychoanalyzing you right now.
• 14:42
  Mary: I'm like I can't wear that, like I think people they worry about what they say to me and I don't.
• 14:49
  Mary: That's not the frequency I'm on when I'm interacting with people personally.
• 14:54
  Mary: So it's interesting that you know with that idea, for you is like if you're sensing something, it's sort of like, and I feel like I can't do that, because it's probably saying you know, here's what your diagnosis would be if I were going to diagnose you.
• 15:09
  Suzanne: It doesn't always happen, but sometimes it just comes in when I'm with somebody, not always, but it's kind of like.
• 15:17
  Suzanne: As I said, I went to medical school.
• 15:18
  Suzanne: I did this rotation at a rural practice, so like middle of nowhere, the doctor's like it, and you stayed at the doctor's place and one time we're in the supermarket I should say it's a kind of corner store because we're in a rural place the number of people who came up to him in the checkout or the aisles, like pulling up their shirt, going can you check out my rash?
• 15:33
  Suzanne: That dude did not have boundaries.
• 15:35
  Suzanne: But all this to say for that when you're not in professional mode, a no, but also I don't have all my gear, I'm not on, like I'm not thinking about is this this or is this that?
• 15:46
  Suzanne: And if you go up to a doctor in a supermarket, hang, hold out your rash and they say something to worry about, so you never bother getting it checked and it gets worse or whatever.
• 15:53
  Suzanne: Because old Joe blogs in aisle four said it was fine and it's like that's.
• 15:59
  Suzanne: You know, like sometimes people do it because they don't want to pay and I get that, or they're not able to, and I'm not downplaying that, but sometimes it's like you know, this is this person's profession.
• 16:06
  Suzanne: Don't make light of them or cheapen it by expecting them to like.
• 16:09
  Suzanne: You know, like my sisters love them dearly but sometimes go ring me and go can you do your heebie-jeebie stuff I've got like no, no, it's not on demand.
• 16:19
  Suzanne: I'm not a faucet and this is what I do.
• 16:22
  Suzanne: But you know, you know, if I have an inkling I will offer it.
• 16:25
  Suzanne: But I'm not randomly going around analyzing people or looking at rushes, like just no.
• 16:31
  Mary: Yeah Well, and so you just gave me the perfect segue to take the off ramp to boundaries.
• 16:36
  Mary: So the one thing that I think where boundaries come from and you know I work predominantly with women, and I see this mostly with women is we take responsibility for all kinds of shit that it's not ours to take responsibility for, and I feel like that's it starts that way, that we want to smooth the path.
• 16:58
  Mary: So, whether it's, you know, doing something for our kids to make life easier which then of course, and we can also weave in enabling because I don't often hear people outside of the therapy world use that, but I know you use that word, so can we talk a little about that First of all, that idea of taking responsibility for things that aren't yours.
• 17:20
  Suzanne: I can think of so many examples, like, if you help your kid with their homework, you could be enabling them Not always, I'm not saying be an absolute awful person, but like, say, for example, there was one time my daughter comes to me at 10 pm saying like A she should have been in bed.
• 17:40
  Suzanne: I was getting ready for bed, but anyway, long story short, she's like crying because she needs to build a diorama for school and I'm like no worries, when's it due?
• 17:50
  Suzanne: And she's like tomorrow.
• 17:52
  Suzanne: And if I had then put off going to bed, ferreted through our craft cupboard and helped her build a diorama, or told her to go to bed and build it for her because, let's face it, some parents do that I'm not helping my kid learn anything.
• 18:06
  Suzanne: Because really, what is the task?
• 18:09
  Suzanne: Do we need another crappy diorama in the world?
• 18:11
  Suzanne: That sounds awful, but you know what I mean.
• 18:13
  Suzanne: No, it's about them planning, getting organized, sourcing stuff, learning, learning these skills, not the diorama itself.
• 18:21
  Suzanne: So by me doing that, I'm not helping her at all, I'm enabling her that mum will get her out of the shit.
• 18:26
  Suzanne: Yeah, there we go.
• 18:27
  Suzanne: Oh, that's so good At the 11th hour and I would rather her learn that lesson now, when it doesn't really matter, because at the end of the day, what she gets on this project is not going to be on her full-time record.
• 18:41
  Suzanne: Then, when she's going for a job interview and she doesn't have a clean shirt or she's got a flat tire and she doesn't know what to do.
• 18:48
  Suzanne: So I said to her no, I won't help you, I guess you're going to fail that one.
• 18:52
  Suzanne: And then she's crying, calling me all the names under the sun, and I'm not saying in that moment I did feel awful, I could have done it, but I'm not helping her.
• 19:00
  Suzanne: The same as there was one time I had something in the city We've only got one vehicle so I was walking with my son to school.
• 19:06
  Suzanne: He was riding his scooter, and then I was catching a train into the city and we get to the front of the school gate and I go to hug him goodbye.
• 19:15
  Suzanne: I said, dude, where's your backpack?
• 19:16
  Suzanne: And he'd left it at home and he's like, can you walk home and grab it, which I could have?
• 19:20
  Suzanne: I would have missed my thing and I was only going to the theater.
• 19:24
  Suzanne: Like I love the theater, I'm a theater buff, so in the back of my mind I was like, well you know, but it's like, and don't worry anyone listening, I didn't make my kids starve, thank goodness for the app.
• 19:31
  Suzanne: I went onto the app.
• 19:32
  Suzanne: I was like, but you're going to need to ask to borrow pencil ruler, this sort of stuff.
• 19:38
  Suzanne: Like you're going to have to lean on your peers, and I think that teaches him A he's never forgotten his bag again.
• 19:43
  Suzanne: And B to be resourceful, rather than me giving up something that I was really looking forward to, even though it wasn't urgent, because he'd forgotten something.
• 19:53
  Suzanne: And I and I think you know, especially as women like I've got another example that I've shared a few times.
• 19:58
  Suzanne: So this would have been last year.
• 19:59
  Suzanne: Now we currently live in Sydney, we have what we call Sprummer.
• 20:03
  Suzanne: As it comes into spring, which will be soon, it doesn't really happen in spring, it goes straight to summer and it's hot and, as I said, we've got the one car.
• 20:10
  Suzanne: So my husband was working in the city, I had the car and I thought, great, go home, record stuff for my work podcast, get the kids from school, right, right, right.
• 20:27
  Suzanne: So I ended up with one kid home because he was unwell.
• 20:31
  Suzanne: Not like needs me to hold his hand unwell.
• 20:33
  Suzanne: But you know, and I'm recording, podcasting, batching, and my son comes in and my kids know not to come in.
• 20:40
  Suzanne: This is another boundary, unless it's a true emergency.
• 20:42
  Suzanne: So I was like what is wrong, you know?
• 20:44
  Suzanne: And he's like daddy's trying to call you.
• 20:46
  Suzanne: I'm like what?
• 20:48
  Suzanne: So I turn my phone over and I see like 15 missed calls or something.
• 20:52
  Suzanne: I'm like oh my gosh, there's been an accident, my husband's injured or whatever.
• 20:54
  Suzanne: And I ring him and he answers he's like where are you?
• 20:57
  Suzanne: And I'm like at home in front of the computer.
• 21:02
  Suzanne: He's like I'm waiting.
• 21:03
  Suzanne: Anyway, long story short, I drive to the train station.
• 21:05
  Suzanne: It's Sprummer, so it's like 35 degrees Celsius.
• 21:08
  Suzanne: He wears full PPE high beers, he's sweating like an absolute.
• 21:12
  Suzanne: You know this is at like 2.30 and he starts losing it at me because you know I wasn't checking my phone and all this sort of stuff and I was like hold up, dude.
• 21:21
  Suzanne: You said you'd be home after five.
• 21:24
  Suzanne: It is half past two.
• 21:26
  Suzanne: He's like I rang you.
• 21:27
  Suzanne: I'm like yeah, but did you see?
• 21:29
  Suzanne: Like did I answer any of them?
• 21:31
  Suzanne: Did I?
• 21:33
  Suzanne: Was it as read?
• 21:34
  Suzanne: And he's like no, and I'm like you're a full-grown adult.
• 21:39
  Suzanne: You could have called an Uber.
• 21:39
  Suzanne: There's all these other ways you could have got yourself home.
• 21:41
  Suzanne: I am not holding, like my part meant to be.
• 21:44
  Suzanne: Oh, I'm a bad wife, no, no, no, I'm not, I'm doing my own thing.
• 22:05
  Mary: So the examples with your kids so resonate with me, because I worked with college kids for a very long time and, as I so, I started probably 35 years ago working with high school and things have changed a lot in, you know, three and a half decades.
• 22:18
  Mary: So kids come to college they didn't even fill out their own application, they have no idea about meal plans, and so the first time a paper is due and they didn't, they run out of ink or they run out of paper.
• 22:34
  Mary: Everything is this huge crisis and it's because they were enabled.
• 22:41
  Mary: Anytime they would hit a tough spot, they would get bailed out.
• 22:46
  Mary: You know doing what you're talking about, like I forgot my paper or I didn't print my paper, or I know parents who have written papers for their kids and once they get a job, oh, I also know parents who fill out job applications for their kids.
• 23:02
  Mary: So I often wonder how far can we kick that can down the road, because they're going to get into a job situation and have no idea how to manage themselves.
• 23:14
  Suzanne: A hundred percent and we think we're helping.
• 23:16
  Suzanne: And some people have said to me you know quite, I can't think of a word, but like I love my children, I'm like, yeah, I love my children too and I want them to be able to handle it on the if and when I'm not there, whether it be some tragedy thing I'm hoping not or whether it be just like.
• 23:31
  Suzanne: You know they need to be savvy.
• 23:34
  Suzanne: They need to be able to know how to catch public transport and what to do if their card runs out of money.
• 23:39
  Suzanne: Or you know how to like feed themselves, like both of my kids cook.
• 23:44
  Suzanne: They are very young, basic, age-appropriate things, not like Sauvignon Blanc or, you know, like lots of booze.
• 23:51
  Suzanne: But do you know what I mean?
• 23:51
  Suzanne: Like nothing over the top.
• 23:52
  Mary: They don't make wine.
• 23:54
  Suzanne: They don't make wine, but it's funny, like, so we're moving.
• 23:56
  Suzanne: As I said, the house we're going to for the first time ever at least for us it has two en-suites.
• 24:02
  Suzanne: So my daughter's like actually there was a fight on, my daughter won and she's like I'm getting the room with a second en-suite.
• 24:08
  Suzanne: I was like I was actually planning for that to be my office, but anyway, long story short, I was like well, you're going to have to learn how to clean a toilet, like she knows a shower and a sink.
• 24:15
  Suzanne: I said because if you don't keep that en suite clean, I'm kicking you out.
• 24:20
  Suzanne: I didn't think through my words here, people.
• 24:22
  Suzanne: She starts crying.
• 24:23
  Suzanne: I'm confused.
• 24:25
  Suzanne: She's like where am I going to live?
• 24:26
  Suzanne: It's like not out of the house, darling out of that room.
• 24:31
  Suzanne: Then she's like oh, because it's like if you don't maintain it, I'm not going to come clean your bathroom for you.
• 24:37
  Suzanne: If you have your own, you're in charge of it wholly and solely.
• 24:42
  Mary: Yeah, we really think that, that we don't think it through, I think, and it's feeling bad, Like you talked about, you know with your husband, not, you know, watching the phone, and I think when we get in those situations then we do feel guilty.
• 24:58
  Mary: So how did you ever I mean, I'm going to guess at some point, because we have been socialized as women you went through some of that guilt right when you made a boundary.
• 25:08
  Mary: How did you get past?
• 25:10
  Suzanne: like putting that aside, the first few times you set a boundary.
• 25:14
  Suzanne: I really liken boundary setting and growth to working out your physical body.
• 25:20
  Suzanne: If you know that you're not in the best shape or you're in no shape, no shame or shade.
• 25:24
  Suzanne: But you decide, hmm, I'm going to go to the gym and you walk in and you see, like these row of dumbbells from we say kilos here, but you guys would say pounds, like from two pounds to like a hundred pounds, and you see some like beefcake or really fit person bicep curling like 50 pounds.
• 25:41
  Suzanne: You know you're unlikely to be able to even lift that off the rack, let alone do it, so you wouldn't try.
• 25:46
  Suzanne: You'd start at the little end and work your way up to it.
• 25:48
  Suzanne: Boundaries are much the same.
• 25:49
  Suzanne: So if you've never said no to your kids, I think where many of us go wrong is we listen to a podcast like this or read a book and we try and do this complete 180 and we start to like any type of boundary setting.
• 26:02
  Suzanne: I actually recommend starting with people who don't yet know you like starting not with your nearest and dearest, because they have known you for years or decades and they're 100% used to.
• 26:12
  Suzanne: So it's actually hardest to set the boundaries with those closest and they're going to need the most reinforcing because they're used to the other version of you.
• 26:19
  Suzanne: And so, anyway, much like at the gym, you're going to have to get your reps up, you're going to have to start light and you're going to have to remind people.
• 26:27
  Suzanne: So, like my husband and I have been together for 20 odd years now, and when I first started boundaries in like this this recent situation with the train and the Sprummer when I first started boundaries in like this, this recent situation with the train and the Sprummer, it wouldn't have been my first one.
• 26:41
  Suzanne: Like it's, we've been together a long time but you know, if you've never set a boundary with someone, if you've been the person who's watching the phone and you know, oh my gosh, you dropped a crumb on the floor, I'm going to go and wipe it up or whatever.
• 26:51
  Suzanne: Not like, pick up your own cutlery.
• 26:53
  Suzanne: Um, cause it's funny, my parents-in-law, my, my mother-in-law very much caters and panders to my father-in-law, so much so I'm surprised she doesn't cut his meat for him.
• 27:02
  Suzanne: I'm not being sarcastic.
• 27:03
  Suzanne: She'll carry his plate to the sink.
• 27:04
  Suzanne: She'll put the napkin on his lap.
• 27:06
  Suzanne: I just look at it in horror.
• 27:07
  Suzanne: And when they visit, like my husband not only does everything himself, but he also cooks.
• 27:12
  Suzanne: She's like how did you manage that?
• 27:14
  Suzanne: And I was thinking, we are both adults, we both work.
• 27:18
  Suzanne: It's not like you know.
• 27:20
  Suzanne: And yeah, when he comes to visit, it's like put your own plate in the sink, I'm not carrying it for you, it's just so all I have to say it's kind of like where are you?
• 27:30
  Suzanne: I guess the starting point would be to take inventory of where are you now, without shame, shade or judgment.
• 27:34
  Suzanne: Like this is just how it's become.
• 27:36
  Suzanne: I do my kids' homework.
• 27:37
  Suzanne: I, you know, I run around after everyone.
• 27:40
  Suzanne: Like this has become unsustainable.
• 27:43
  Suzanne: Pick where you want to begin.
• 27:45
  Suzanne: Have a really honest conversation with the people.
• 27:48
  Suzanne: Like for me in the beginning, when I tried to set boundaries, my husband would be playing the Xbox and I'd say something my husband would agree for we could move to the Eiffel Tower.
• 27:59
  Suzanne: If he's playing the Xbox, he's not paying any attention to me.
• 28:01
  Suzanne: So it's kind of like make sure you have the person's full attention and then start with up until now.
• 28:07
  Suzanne: Up until now I've done your homework for you or I've put your plate in the sink or I've whatever.
• 28:13
  Suzanne: From here on forward, this is what I would like so make it kind of like a question and then say are you on board with that?
• 28:20
  Suzanne: And then be open to negotiate, but not backpedal and give up entirely, because I think sometimes it's like acknowledging, because then, when it happens the next time, instead of you playing in yourself, I didn't ask them right, or I'm a terrible person, or I should just do it anyway because it's easier.
• 28:33
  Suzanne: Just hey, remember last week when we had this conversation.
• 28:36
  Suzanne: Like this is an example and just reminding people because people who love you, most of them will be like oh, thank goodness, like people, please couldn't make a decision.
• 28:47
  Suzanne: Me, when my husband was like where would you want to go out for dinner?
• 28:49
  Suzanne: I don't know, wherever you want, honey, and he'd be like here, I don't want to go there.
• 28:52
  Suzanne: Here, I don't want to go there.
• 28:53
  Suzanne: Where do you want to go?
• 28:53
  Suzanne: I don't know.
• 28:54
  Suzanne: So, like now, it's like where do you want to go for dinner?
• 28:56
  Suzanne: Oh, I feel like Italian.
• 28:58
  Suzanne: He loves that.
• 28:59
  Suzanne: Decisiveness is attractive as opposed to like no, it's fine, when you know it's not fine, mm-hmm.
• 29:06
  Mary: Yeah, and I think the thing that people don't often think about it is the hardest to change a boundary with people that are close to you, partly because we live in a system so I think about family systems and everybody sort of has their role.
• 29:21
  Mary: We're used to people doing something the way they do it, and when they change suddenly we do not want that Like.
• 29:27
  Mary: The system will do every possible thing to keep that person functioning like they were.
• 29:32
  Mary: So it's really starting.
• 29:35
  Mary: You're right.
• 29:35
  Mary: It's kind of like going into the gym and saying I'm going to do bicep curls with a 70-pound weight because you can't Like you.
• 29:42
  Mary: Literally you're going to try it once and you're going to really be hurting.
• 29:46
  Mary: So I think, thinking about it, the system is stacked against you, because that's just naturally.
• 29:52
  Mary: We want people to be predictable.
• 29:54
  Suzanne: Yeah, it's like homeostasis.
• 29:56
  Suzanne: It's a system and it runs like it runs and this is your role in it and sometimes, like you might have an idea in your head, like I've given this example before, but this is a great one.
• 30:07
  Suzanne: So my daughter has anxiety and she struggles a lot socially and sometimes she wants to unpack.
• 30:11
  Suzanne: That and I'm here for it.
• 30:12
  Suzanne: But the time she likes to unpack it is like nine, 10 o'clock at night when I'm winding down and also, once I've helped her decompress, I need time to decompress.
• 30:21
  Suzanne: I think sometimes people please us, we forget all about what we need.
• 30:24
  Suzanne: So if she's decompressing with me at 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock at night, then I need another hour.
• 30:29
  Suzanne: I'm not getting to bed after midnight and then I'm an early ride.
• 30:32
  Suzanne: Anyway, it doesn't work.
• 30:33
  Suzanne: So I remember saying to her up until now I've been available whenever you need it and I love you and I want to be here for you.
• 30:41
  Suzanne: But this isn't working for me.
• 30:42
  Suzanne: Like you know, you have needs too and even smaller children can understand that.
• 30:47
  Suzanne: Like, not maybe toddlers, but my kids are, you know, high school age at least one of them is.
• 30:50
  Suzanne: So I was like and this is what I proposed was after school, because that would work best for me.
• 30:56
  Suzanne: Anyway, what was happening is she wasn't coming to me after school and then I'd hear her in her room crying at like 10 o'clock and then I feel like the worst mom ever and all this sort of stuff.
• 31:05
  Suzanne: So this boundary needed to be massaged, and what was happening?
• 31:09
  Suzanne: And she didn't have words for it in the beginning, but she was like after school, she's not ready, it's still too soon, it's still too fresh, she needs time to unwind, to unpack that before she can unpack it with me.
• 31:19
  Suzanne: So then what we did was we moved it till after dinner, so like we ate dinner at around 5.30.
• 31:25
  Suzanne: So you know, and long story short, over time this boundary for both of us got massaged and managed until any time before 7pm.
• 31:33
  Suzanne: After 7, I'm not available.
• 31:36
  Suzanne: And then for the first month or so, I had to say to her hey, it's coming up to 7pm, anything you want to share, because she might forget or stuff happens.
• 31:46
  Suzanne: Now we don't need that.
• 31:47
  Suzanne: But I think, as you build the boundary, as you build the thing, that bridging thing, not that you're doing it for them, but maybe a gentle reminder.
• 31:53
  Suzanne: And now, as I said, we're about to move, so it's probably going to bring up a lot of stuff for her, so I'll probably reinstate that.
• 31:59
  Suzanne: Hey, anything you want to chat about, um, that I haven't needed for some number of months now.
• 32:03
  Suzanne: But I think sometimes we get in our head like this is what works for us, like, as I said, for me, ideally immediately after school I'm fresh, I've, you know, but for her that doesn't work.
• 32:13
  Suzanne: So I think sometimes setting a boundary isn't I'm putting this barricade in and saying you must do this.
• 32:18
  Suzanne: It's like this is what worked for me.
• 32:20
  Suzanne: And then they go actually for me 3 pm, for her 10 pm, 7 pm is kind of like a happy medium.
• 32:26
  Suzanne: It's not perfect for either of us, but we can both make it work.
• 32:29
  Suzanne: And I think that's the thing about a boundary and we have boundaries.
• 32:32
  Suzanne: Like if you go someone's house, chances are you'll ask shoes on or off.
• 32:40
  Suzanne: Some people are 100% like no shoes in my house and some people are like no, no, barefoot, ew.
• 32:43
  Suzanne: So physical boundaries tend to make more sense.
• 32:45
  Suzanne: Or if you're a smoker no judgment, I don't smoke.
• 32:47
  Suzanne: But in your house you might smoke inside, but if you go to someone else's house who's a non-smoker, you would either go outside or smoke before you came or whatever.
• 32:54
  Suzanne: Physical boundaries we tend to understand a lot easier, but emotional boundaries are things too Like.
• 33:00
  Suzanne: I have emotional boundaries with my friends that they can't ring and trauma dump their shit on me.
• 33:04
  Suzanne: It's like A you've got to text first and B you've got to ask me do you have spoons?
• 33:09
  Suzanne: Like as in, have you got capacity for this today?
• 33:12
  Suzanne: Because I love them and people are like, oh, it means you don't love your friends.
• 33:16
  Suzanne: It's like no, no, if I have my own stuff going on, I can't hold space or listen to their stuff and they probably think, oh, Suzanne's dismissing me.
• 33:22
  Suzanne: It's like no, suzanne's barely keeping her head above water, let alone adding on your thing.
• 33:26
  Suzanne: So it's a kindness to say, hey, you got five minutes or I have this going on and sometimes it backfires.
• 33:32
  Suzanne: I had a friend once send me a text going you got spoons.
• 33:35
  Suzanne: I was like not today.
• 33:36
  Suzanne: I said circle back next week.
• 33:37
  Suzanne: She said fine, she circles back.
• 33:38
  Suzanne: She just broke up with her fiance.
• 33:40
  Suzanne: He literally just walked out.
• 33:41
  Suzanne: I was like why didn't you say anything?
• 33:42
  Suzanne: She said you said you had no spoons.
• 33:44
  Mary: I was like, oh, so now it's kind of like having a code word for like, because it's a fork situation.
• 33:56
  Mary: Yeah, exactly.
• 33:58
  Mary: Well, I can tell you right now, from working with kids for such a long time, that there are probably parents listening to you saying how can you not be there to listen to your kid when she needs it?
• 34:10
  Mary: And I'm going to let me reframe that because I think when, first of all, there's two parts to this.
• 34:16
  Mary: As a therapist, it always makes me nervous when I have someone that's in a time of their life that they're really struggling and there's one person they rely on to help them work through things.
• 34:27
  Mary: And I have to always say to them what are you going to do when that person's not available?
• 34:31
  Mary: And they say, well, they're always there.
• 34:33
  Mary: I'm like you, what if you know?
• 34:41
  Mary: And because to me that is an external locus of control, that's saying I can't regulate myself unless I can unload this and have someone help me process it.
• 34:50
  Mary: And when you develop an internal locus of control, which you're actually doing beautifully with your daughter, because you're teaching her and this is the other part you're teaching her that you trust her to be able to learn to do it herself, and you're doing it in a way that you didn't say I don't want to be bothered, which I've seen a lot of parents not parent, you know.
• 35:11
  Mary: Yeah, there's things that are hard about parenting that you have to do when you don't want to, but you're really making it a dialogue which is very empowering.
• 35:21
  Mary: And I think sometimes we discount that because we think, well, they're going to think I don't care and I can tell you.
• 35:28
  Mary: When you trust your kid to be able, you're saying to her I'm going to be here for you, but we're going to have to figure out how you can sometimes regulate this for yourself, and that is tremendously empowering for a young person.
• 35:43
  Mary: So I really love that, because I know there are parents that are probably like how can she?
• 35:48
  Mary: And it's really like you got to trust your kid, but you need to teach them how to do that for themselves.
• 35:53
  Suzanne: Well, it's an excellent point.
• 35:54
  Suzanne: I know people people.
• 36:01
  Suzanne: I have this conversation with people all the time and I'm like you know you can, you do you, you're entitled to your opinion, that's all good.
• 36:04
  Suzanne: You wanted to say that, um, but like my mom's passed now.
• 36:07
  Suzanne: So if my mom and I've seen adult people still fully reliant on their parent, if my mom was my sole focus and, as you said, locus of control, what happens when she passed Like?
• 36:20
  Suzanne: And also my daughter has other tools.
• 36:23
  Suzanne: She has a journal which you know she can write in.
• 36:25
  Suzanne: She has a therapist which she can see, but even a therapist she sees her like once every two weeks.
• 36:30
  Suzanne: What happens the other 13 days of the week?
• 36:35
  Suzanne: And I think with anything in life there are times you just got to figure it out and not like pull yourself up by your bootstraps or don't bother me, kind of figure it out.
• 36:44
  Suzanne: But you know, and I think you know with anything, if there was an emergency I wouldn't say sorry kids, it's outside my zone, just bind it up, you'll be fine.
• 36:54
  Suzanne: Like you know, we would go to the emergency room.
• 36:57
  Suzanne: But I think we've sometimes overestimated what really is urgent, like when I first started setting boundaries in my kids and working cause I work from home it's got advantages and disadvantages.
• 37:07
  Suzanne: I remember saying to them.
• 37:09
  Suzanne: They were a lot younger don't interrupt me unless it's important.
• 37:13
  Suzanne: And I'm like and they're like, yeah, mommy, and I'm sitting down, I'm writing this blog, and I'm like oh, it's like not even five minutes in.
• 37:18
  Suzanne: My daughter comes running in and I'm like is it important?
• 37:21
  Suzanne: She's like yeah, and she's nodding.
• 37:22
  Suzanne: I'm like what happened?
• 37:23
  Suzanne: She's like I could fit 27 blueberries in my mouth.
• 37:25
  Suzanne: I'm like, yeah, okay, we need a very different definition of what it like we need to seek medical attention.
• 37:30
  Suzanne: That's why, when my son came in, that time I was like with my husband.
• 37:40
  Suzanne: I was like what's wrong?
• 37:41
  Suzanne: I turn my phone over and I see all these calls.
• 37:42
  Suzanne: It's because it's like to me that wasn't important.
• 37:45
  Suzanne: I can understand him being frustrated.
• 37:46
  Suzanne: I can understand him being annoyed, but you're a grown man with a mobile phone.
• 37:49
  Suzanne: You can find another way home.
• 37:52
  Suzanne: So it's just kind of like when we become responsible for everybody else and I used to do this, I'd be the person I organized my sister's birthday.
• 38:01
  Suzanne: From interstate, I helped with the wedding, like I was the go-to person.
• 38:04
  Suzanne: But where's your own life?
• 38:06
  Suzanne: And for anyone who's feeling, oh, she's such a bitch, it's like but what do you do for you?
• 38:11
  Suzanne: Do you have hobbies?
• 38:13
  Suzanne: Do you have interests?
• 38:14
  Suzanne: Do you have, or is your life solely everybody else's?
• 38:19
  Suzanne: Because there'll come a point where they grow up or they move out or whatever and you're kind of really alone and then don't have anything because you haven't made time.
• 38:28
  Suzanne: Like it's funny.
• 38:29
  Suzanne: When I grew up, my late mum, she was a mum, like that's what she was like, not in the judgment thing, but I remember watching her when I was little and I was like I don't want to be a mum when I grow up because all mums do is mother.
• 38:41
  Suzanne: Like that was the example I had.
• 38:43
  Suzanne: She had no friends, no hobbies, she worked and she looked after us and that was it.
• 38:46
  Suzanne: And if that had made her fulfilled, that's a whole different thing.
• 38:49
  Suzanne: Some people they love that, but she was always cranky and, and you put it, you know all I do for you and it was like it wasn't a nice environment to be in.
• 39:00
  Suzanne: So it's like I have hobbies and stuff and it's funny.
• 39:03
  Suzanne: Sometimes my kids will be like mommy needs to go for a walk or mommy needs to read a book, cause it's like they could tell I'm highly strung and I I need that alone time and after that, so that you know sometimes they'll be like can I get the bath bomb or can I grab your book?
• 39:21
  Suzanne: Like they're like wanting me to take that time to recharge because they know that I'm through rather than like all mom does is stuff for us.
• 39:29
  Mary: Well, so I'm.
• 39:30
  Mary: I'm putting a book together.
• 39:32
  Mary: It's supposed to be published early next year, but it's about living like a plant.
• 39:35
  Mary: So when you talk about that, it makes me think about.
• 39:38
  Mary: We all have things that we naturally need.
• 39:41
  Mary: So I talk about needing that time as shade, like sometimes when we have sun it's like too much and sometimes we need that.
• 39:50
  Mary: And so if that doesn't match with, like the societal in quotes way you're supposed to parent, it can create a lot of guilt.
• 39:58
  Mary: But you're also, I think, when you can say, here's what I need, but do it in a way you're still engaged.
• 40:05
  Mary: That is also a great lesson if certain people they're caretakers because they don't know what else to do, and then when they don't have that anymore, or they're doing it so they don't have to hear what's happening in their own life 100%.
• 40:24
  Suzanne: I think that's common.
• 40:25
  Suzanne: But also too, no matter what you do, people are going to judge you, so you might as well do what lights you up.
• 40:30
  Suzanne: It's funny, like at least once a year I take a mumcation.
• 40:33
  Suzanne: I don't go anywhere fancy, I usually go somewhere quite close, a couple of nights in a hotel, take my books, take my snacks.
• 40:39
  Suzanne: It's the best.
• 40:41
  Suzanne: And when people find out about it, they're like who's looking after your kids?
• 40:44
  Suzanne: I'm like my husband and they start like interrogating me and everything.
• 40:47
  Suzanne: I'm like he goes away all the time and no one says who's helping you out?
• 40:52
  Suzanne: Hello, he's a fully functional, highly capable man.
• 40:56
  Suzanne: And then the other thing too is they're like well, do you ring them?
• 41:00
  Suzanne: I'm like, no, this is my staycation.
• 41:02
  Suzanne: Like they know that they can call me in emergency Once a day.
• 41:05
  Suzanne: I'll do a quick check-in.
• 41:07
  Suzanne: But like, sometimes I go away or I invite a friend and they're like this is the best idea.
• 41:10
  Suzanne: And they spend the whole time on their phone to their kids and I have to say to them can you please take it to the other room or outside?
• 41:14
  Suzanne: Like the whole idea of this for me is to get away.
• 41:17
  Suzanne: I don't want to be calling every five minutes and checking do you know where this is or do you know where that is?
• 41:22
  Suzanne: They'll figure it out and if not, it's two days, you know, unless it was their like life-saving medicine.
• 41:26
  Suzanne: I'm not being gl, but you see people like oh, my baby's at four and they've dropped their kids here and they're texting me every five minutes.
• 41:35
  Suzanne: Are they getting along with little?
• 41:37
  Suzanne: I stay out of my kids' business.
• 41:45
  Mary: They're fine, they'll work it out.
• 41:46
  Mary: Yeah, well, that going away.
• 41:47
  Mary: I've done that for a weekend in the spring and fall for years.
• 41:49
  Mary: And so I'm on my second marriage.
• 41:50
  Mary: My first marriage my husband was we were like that Venn diagram where the overlap was very slim, so we and sometimes that was good, so he would go.
• 42:00
  Mary: He was a hiker, so he hiked the Pacific Crest Trail I mean, these are the Appalachian Trail.
• 42:05
  Mary: This is like a five month situation.
• 42:08
  Mary: So when he would be getting ready and we were married for 10 years so he probably did two or three through hikes during that time.
• 42:15
  Mary: But when he would go away we would typically I'd drive him, like I drove him to Montana and it was great.
• 42:22
  Mary: And then I drove back home and people are like, what are you going to do for five months?
• 42:26
  Mary: I said you have no idea how happy I am right now.
• 42:28
  Mary: So now I'm married to somebody very different.
• 42:33
  Mary: He likes a lot of together time.
• 42:35
  Mary: So because I know myself, I said I'm going to need some space for solitude and we don't have a huge house.
• 42:42
  Mary: So he followed through and we have a little retreat out in our woods with heating and air conditioning and I just go out there.
• 42:51
  Mary: That's where I work.
• 42:52
  Mary: So I think, and even now, when I go away for weekends without him, he's very, he's very cool with that.
• 42:59
  Mary: But I know there have been people along the way that are like you're not going together, it's like, well, no, because when I come back I'm ready to engage Like I'm in my best self and you're at your best self when you can do that, and then parent right, cause you, just you need that.
• 43:21
  Suzanne: Yeah, and I think it's knowing your nature.
• 43:22
  Suzanne: Like my husband, my daughter and I are all very introverted by nature.
• 43:24
  Suzanne: We like to be quiet.
• 43:24
  Suzanne: Like my husband can play the Xbox, I can sit with his headphones in because I'll sit next to him and read a book and it's like that's together time, but technically we're alone.
• 43:30
  Suzanne: But you know, we like that.
• 43:31
  Suzanne: My son is very extroverted, he's the opposite of us.
• 43:34
  Suzanne: So it's funny.
• 43:36
  Suzanne: Sometimes in school holidays we call it taking our extrovert out to recharge.
• 43:40
  Suzanne: Like it's like we're mindful, make sure we go to the park at least once a day or every second day, or go to places where he can.
• 43:45
  Suzanne: Like he'll be in a park five minutes, he will know everyone's name, everyone will know his name and he would have organized a group activity, whereas I'll be like I would rather die.
• 43:52
  Suzanne: But it's like there's no judgment or shade.
• 43:56
  Suzanne: We are different and I think some families, like the family I grew up in, was very extroverted and I was not.
• 44:01
  Suzanne: They just never understood I'm not quiet, I'm not shy, I'm not rude, I just like to be alone, not always, but when I'm alone then, as you said, you take that time.
• 44:10
  Suzanne: Then you can engage more rather than forcing yourself into a mold that doesn't fit you.
• 44:20
  Mary: And I think you feel that in your body.
• 44:21
  Mary: I know for me, if I have too much time with other people, I literally feel pressure in my chest.
• 44:23
  Mary: It's like I can't get a deep breath.
• 44:25
  Mary: And when I I just tolerated that when I was younger and then, as I learned and put aside the guilt of you know like it's okay to have the needs that don't because we're supposed to be extroverted At least that's the United States thing.
• 44:37
  Mary: So when we would have international students that came from very different cultures and they would not do well in the classroom, because the louder you are in an American classroom, the more quote points you get, and that's really hard for somebody who that's not their culture.
• 44:56
  Mary: So I think that we're just appreciating that sense of like what do I really need?
• 45:02
  Mary: And then not not like dragging the guilt around with you, yeah Well recently I volunteered at my son's school.
• 45:12
  Suzanne: I will own.
• 45:12
  Suzanne: I didn't read the fine print.
• 45:14
  Suzanne: I thought I was there for an hour and thankfully I worked for myself because it turned out I'd actually volunteered for the whole day.
• 45:20
  Suzanne: And when I found that out I was like, oh, anyway, it was fun, it was a great day.
• 45:25
  Suzanne: They catered, they provided lunch.
• 45:26
  Suzanne: Thank goodness I didn't take anything with me.
• 45:28
  Suzanne: Anyway, all this to say, when I got home I was so exhausted I was like, oh my gosh, how do teachers do this all day, every day?
• 45:36
  Suzanne: Like, the kids were lovely, the event was great, it was so well run, but it was like there's way too much peopling for me.
• 45:42
  Suzanne: But you know, it was kind of like cause normally I like, when the school asks for things, I don't volunteer for the in-person things.
• 45:49
  Suzanne: I'll be the one who does the spreadsheet thing behind the scenes, or I'll be the one who does this, but not the one who, like, turns up and does it.
• 45:58
  Suzanne: But it's like knowing your strengths, because I remember one year I was invited to be like on the parents and friends, like on the committee.
• 46:04
  Suzanne: I was like I'm not a good person for this, like it's not saying I don't care about the school.
• 46:08
  Suzanne: I care about the school enough to know that you don't want me organizing the things like this.
• 46:12
  Suzanne: But if you need someone to rally donations or something like very small interactions and I think, as you said, as a society we've been taught to ignore our natural state or when we see somebody fully embodying it, we make up stories.
• 46:26
  Suzanne: But we're going to make up stories about them anyway, because had I done that role, oh she's terrible, what'd she do this for?
• 46:31
  Suzanne: So, either way, people are going to say stuff.
• 46:34
  Suzanne: So you might as well be who you are, cause when I meet someone with good boundaries, I love them, because I know what flies and what doesn't fly.
• 46:43
  Suzanne: There's no underspoken seething resentment.
• 46:45
  Suzanne: It's just like cool, don't call them after eight.
• 46:48
  Suzanne: So you just know.
• 46:51
  Mary: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:53
  Mary: And things that aren't, you know, not your responsibility are like somebody's feelings when you set the boundary, if somebody gets pissed off because you made a boundary, that's giving you information about that person yeah, not your boundary.
• 47:05
  Suzanne: And if somebody doesn't respect your boundary, like there's a difference between somebody has forgotten all they need reminding because that happens or somebody who flies in the face of it Like an innate.
• 47:16
  Suzanne: Example my sister runs a craft shop.
• 47:18
  Suzanne: She has a website and she has a phone number and she didn't have clear hours of when she can be called.
• 47:24
  Suzanne: So somebody rang her at 2am.
• 47:27
  Suzanne: I don't know why she answered her phone, like mine's on airplane mode.
• 47:30
  Suzanne: But each time she answered the phone and she says to the person oh yeah, like cause.
• 47:34
  Suzanne: The person said well, your website doesn't stay down, I can call you, you know.
• 47:38
  Suzanne: And she's like oh yeah, no, it's like nine till five, whatever, and she had this conversation.
• 47:42
  Suzanne: So then she hangs up.
• 47:44
  Suzanne: The person immediately rings back Like you know, someone's having a land of you here, anyway.
• 47:50
  Suzanne: So she's like no, no, I'm like, why did you answer the phone again?
• 47:51
  Suzanne: So she's like no, no, I'm like, why did you answer the phone again?
• 47:53
  Suzanne: Anyway, then she hung up and the person rang back again.
• 47:56
  Suzanne: So then my sister blocked her number.
• 47:57
  Suzanne: But it's just kind of like you if someone is going to keep pushing, like that they don't actually want to hire you or work with you or be a friend with you.
• 48:06
  Suzanne: They've just got their own stuff going on.
• 48:08
  Suzanne: Let them unpack that.
• 48:09
  Suzanne: And that's why, with the internet, the block feature, lesson block.
• 48:13
  Suzanne: Wish you all the best.
• 48:14
  Suzanne: Don't want to interact with you anymore.
• 48:17
  Mary: For sure, yeah, so if people are listening to this and they they yearn to do this or they've, as we've talked about, they've tried and failed.
• 48:26
  Mary: We talked about a lot of different ways to do this.
• 48:29
  Mary: But if somebody said, suzanne, how do I give me the first three steps?
• 48:34
  Mary: How would you start?
• 48:36
  Mary: How would you suggest somebody starts to get some boundaries in place First?
• 48:42
  Suzanne: step, journal, pen and paper, diary, notes on your phone, voice message, whatever works for you.
• 48:47
  Suzanne: Get really clear on what's happening now, as much as you can, without judgment, like, where are you?
• 48:54
  Suzanne: Because, say, we were like, as I said, what I've used all through this, we're moving house.
• 48:58
  Suzanne: In order for me to get to the new house, I need to plot where is it versus where I am.
• 49:05
  Suzanne: So Google maps shows me how to get there, cause I don't know.
• 49:08
  Suzanne: I've never been there before.
• 49:09
  Suzanne: Do you know what I mean?
• 49:10
  Suzanne: So I think sometimes people are like I want this, but that's only half of the GPS.
• 49:15
  Suzanne: You need to be where you are now because for everyone listening to this, your current situation, it might be similar.
• 49:22
  Suzanne: There might be threads you might be nodding along, going oh, I do this, but it's not going to be exactly the same.
• 49:26
  Suzanne: So what is happening currently and this is often the step people miss or they don't like, because you don't like where you are now and we get that like.
• 49:33
  Suzanne: Because you don't like where you are now and we get that.
• 49:35
  Suzanne: That's why you want to move, that's why you want to change.
• 49:40
  Suzanne: But we can't plot a course if you don't know where you are.
• 49:41
  Suzanne: So, as much as you can, without judgment or shade.
• 49:42
  Suzanne: It's just kind of like if we were going to clean up a room.
• 49:43
  Suzanne: You need to turn on the light and go.
• 49:45
  Suzanne: What are we working with?
• 49:46
  Suzanne: So it's like what's happening in your life right now.
• 49:51
  Suzanne: Then step number two would be would I like and even if it feels like a stretch, and this is where sometimes people go completely the other way I want to live in the Maldives in that room it's ten thousand dollars a night and have a way to feed me grapes.
• 50:02
  Suzanne: And no, no, no.
• 50:03
  Suzanne: Like if you waved a realistic magic wand.
• 50:08
  Suzanne: Like not something that's beyond, but you know, I would like my children to do their own homework.
• 50:13
  Suzanne: I would like my husband to carry his plate to the sink.
• 50:14
  Suzanne: I would like, you know, I would like my children to do their own homework.
• 50:15
  Suzanne: I would like my husband to carry his plate to the sink.
• 50:16
  Suzanne: I would like.
• 50:16
  Suzanne: You know I only cook three nights a week and other people like whatever it is.
• 50:20
  Suzanne: But like what would you desire?
• 50:23
  Suzanne: Even if you've got no idea how it's going to be now, because I can tell you so many things that I just did.
• 50:28
  Suzanne: Like my husband in this role not in his new role, but he actually ends up working fully from home role not in his new role, but he actually ends up working fully from home.
• 50:37
  Suzanne: And I was like why am I always the one dropping the kids up and picking them up from school?
• 50:39
  Suzanne: He's home too, so we had to do a really bit of negotiating to get there.
• 50:42
  Suzanne: But now he does the mornings, which allows me to do podcasts and stuff with you guys in the US, because he's taking care of the kids now, and then I do the afternoons.
• 50:50
  Suzanne: But you know, there's sometimes so many things you've just fallen into the habit and you've just done this.
• 50:54
  Suzanne: Or society says the woman does this and the man does this, and you know in general.
• 50:58
  Suzanne: So it's kind of like what would you like?
• 51:00
  Suzanne: Is the next step, even if it feels like a stretch, even if you don't know how, even if the thought of it is daunting, as I said, but not moving to the Maldives and living in a $10,000 a day house.
• 51:09
  Suzanne: And then the third step is to look at how you can start.
• 51:20
  Suzanne: I recommend, if you're really got terrible boundaries and I know, with people who don't even know you yet, so I used to if I went to a supermarket.
• 51:27
  Suzanne: Would you like fries with that?
• 51:28
  Suzanne: Would you like a corn cob?
• 51:28
  Suzanne: Would you like this?
• 51:29
  Suzanne: I go out for one thing and I come home.
• 51:31
  Suzanne: You know I was an easy sell, like I must have had a sign that said, like suck off.
• 51:36
  Suzanne: It was like in the beginning no, thank you.
• 51:39
  Suzanne: Because people are going to ask that's their job, they get extra permission or they get this.
• 51:47
  Suzanne: So you know, I was so bad about saying no.
• 51:48
  Suzanne: I was like, oh my gosh, what happens if I don't buy the corn cob?
• 51:49
  Suzanne: Like nothing happens.
• 51:50
  Suzanne: You know, now I'm kind of at the point I wouldn't quite say this, but in my head it's like if I wanted a corncob, I would audit it Like do you know?
• 51:55
  Suzanne: But it's just like, start in those places If people say, you know, start with the furthest out and then, as you start to bring it in and you have to have conversations, always the three magic words up until now, because you're acknowledging this is how it's been and from here forward, and make sure the person is paying attention.
• 52:17
  Suzanne: They're not playing their xbox, they're not looking at their kids running around the park.
• 52:20
  Suzanne: They have you, have their attention and then be open to negotiate like, does that work for you because it's amazing.
• 52:26
  Suzanne: People often said to me how did you get this stuff?
• 52:29
  Suzanne: How did you do this?
• 52:30
  Suzanne: I'm like I asked like because the nope coach is not just about me saying no, it's about me being okay with other people saying no to me.
• 52:36
  Suzanne: It's amazing what you get when you make a genuine kind ask, not an assumption or not a weird kind of like.
• 52:43
  Suzanne: I left you a five-star review on your podcast, so now you'll come on mine, right, no?
• 52:47
  Suzanne: So start to ask and be open to be surprised.
• 52:53
  Suzanne: You'll be amazed at how many things that you think, oh my gosh, seem impossible.
• 52:56
  Suzanne: Most people are pretty good with.
• 52:59
  Mary: Yeah, you just reminded me of something that I do, which I can't stand, but it's so hard for me to get past it.
• 53:06
  Mary: When I go into a little shop that I know is like you know, like a small business and I don't buy anything, I feel so guilty and I'm like what is wrong with you and I don't buy anything.
• 53:14
  Mary: I feel so guilty and I'm like what is wrong with you, like you can't go in and just buy something just because you love that.
• 53:19
  Mary: It's a small business.
• 53:23
  Suzanne: That's one of my things that, I think, is just, I get stuck on that.
• 53:25
  Suzanne: But what you could do, a suggestion, mary, if you're open to it, yeah, if you're like that, because I'm like that too it's like, okay, what are other ways I could support this business?
• 53:31
  Suzanne: Could I leave them a Google review?
• 53:33
  Suzanne: Could I tell a friend about it?
• 53:34
  Suzanne: Could I share one of their posts?
• 53:35
  Suzanne: I think sometimes our heart is like I want to support this place.
• 53:39
  Suzanne: There's so many ways you can support people without spending a dime and that support might help them anymore.
• 53:45
  Suzanne: Because, say, I went to a little shop and I was going to buy something and maybe it was $5.
• 53:49
  Suzanne: But if I leave them a Google review, I left a Google review for this shop once.
• 53:54
  Suzanne: I don't know if anyone ever leaves them, but Google will sometimes randomly email you how many people have viewed your review?
• 54:00
  Suzanne: This review has been viewed over 10,000 times.
• 54:04
  Suzanne: I got the email from Google the other day and I was like so 10,000 people have seen that, as opposed to me giving them five bucks on the day.
• 54:11
  Suzanne: Like, how can you support people in ways that you know probably would go beyond you rather than, oh well, I've got to give them money and even a kind word, like there are people who have never bought anything from me who send me the most lovely messages and I love that and that keeps it going on a hard day.
• 54:28
  Suzanne: Because I could tell you there's sure as shit a lot of people who tell you exactly what they think about you and it makes you think why do I even want to do this anymore?
• 54:35
  Mary: Oh my God, I totally hear that.
• 54:38
  Mary: I totally hear that.
• 54:40
  Mary: Well, and you know, I think it's really cool when you say you might be surprised because you know one thing personally you mentioned sort of what I call invisible labor, these things that women are socialized to do, that we don't realize we're doing.
• 54:53
  Mary: And shortly after I got married I realized I felt a sense of, I felt pressure to plan dinner all the time, and so I just I love how you say up until now I didn't have those words at the time but I said you know, I feel like there's an expectation that I'm supposed to plan dinner.
• 55:11
  Mary: He goes oh my God, I don't expect that.
• 55:13
  Mary: And I had been worried like how is he going to receive this?
• 55:17
  Mary: And I should know, because my husband is just such a kind person.
• 55:20
  Mary: But I was like, oh, you don't expect that.
• 55:24
  Mary: So there's so much we put on us.
• 55:26
  Mary: And also, in the situation to kind of come full circle to my intro, I was very nervous to email you but I thought you know what, I'm just going to be myself and I'm going to tell her where I'm coming from and see if you know I can host her and whatever's going to happen, what's going to is going to happen and you know it's like been wow, this is really cool, and those.
• 55:49
  Mary: So sometimes those connections come because you just you know you sort of resonate with someone and it's kind of like, just go for it and then you see what happens.
• 56:00
  Suzanne: So I have an excellent example that might help people listening.
• 56:03
  Suzanne: And you know, as we're wrapping up, I went to the client once and she had young children and her parents lived nearby.
• 56:10
  Suzanne: My family's always lived interstate, so I was like it'd be'd be nice and anyway she was happy to pay for a babysitter, like to hire someone.
• 56:18
  Suzanne: But her mum was always like I'll take him, I'll take him, I'll take him, I'll take him.
• 56:22
  Suzanne: And one day her mum kind of like blew up.
• 56:25
  Suzanne: You're always dropping the kids here.
• 56:27
  Suzanne: Like I'm not saying she doesn't love her grandchildren, please don't hear that.
• 56:29
  Suzanne: But it was just kind of funny because my client was like I would have been happy to hire someone and I think sometimes we don't say the thing and had the mum actually said like do you mind?
• 56:44
  Suzanne: Or like another innate example, my husband and I we both wanted to watch the new Batman movie it's not new now the Robert Pattinson one.
• 56:50
  Suzanne: But anyway we couldn't get to the cinema, we didn't have a babysitter.
• 56:53
  Suzanne: Long story, story short.
• 56:54
  Suzanne: It came out on a streaming service and we're like, yeah, put the kids to bed, sitting down, made popcorn, we're five minutes in like this movie's the dumbest thing I've ever seen, do you mean?
• 57:01
  Suzanne: Anyway I said to my husband I hit pause, I'm like I can't.
• 57:05
  Suzanne: This is so dumb.
• 57:05
  Suzanne: He's like oh, thank goodness, I didn't want to watch it either, but I didn't want to say anything because we've both been waiting for this for so long.
• 57:10
  Suzanne: So be open to when you have the conversation.
• 57:13
  Suzanne: Hey, I don't really want to plan dinner.
• 57:14
  Suzanne: Oh, I don't mind doing it.
• 57:16
  Suzanne: The other person they might think that you love it, like your ex-partner or, if it's a current partner, might just assume because you've always done it, you want to do it.
• 57:24
  Suzanne: And when you actually speak up it's amazing and there will be some pushback, like my husband primarily, is the cook in our house now and it's funny when people find out there's always a that must be nice or nice for some.
• 57:40
  Suzanne: And sometimes, like in past I used to always backpedal oh well, I do this and like, try and justify it.
• 57:44
  Suzanne: Now I just like it is, it is.
• 57:48
  Suzanne: And then people like, how did you do?
• 57:50
  Suzanne: And then it opens up, like sometimes I assume they're being sarcastic and taking a job, but it's just they're like oh, that must be nice.
• 57:56
  Suzanne: So tonality is everything.
• 57:58
  Suzanne: That's why I don't like text as much, because must be nice could be.
• 58:01
  Suzanne: I hear it in my head as nice for some, but sometimes it is like nice for some, like it's open, so it's like I just own it.
• 58:10
  Suzanne: It is I don't like cooking, he doesn't love it, but he tolerates it.
• 58:14
  Suzanne: And then we found our system.
• 58:16
  Suzanne: Our marriage is very opposite of what you expect, like when the things come for school and my son takes in the cookies and the teacher goes oh, you're a mom.
• 58:25
  Suzanne: He's like my mom can't bake, it's my dad.
• 58:27
  Suzanne: But it's funny how society accepts.
• 58:29
  Suzanne: And then there are other ways you get to do you in a way that's like yeah, this is what works for us, doesn't need to work for everyone.
• 58:36
  Mary: Yeah, and having the conversation is the beginning.
• 58:39
  Mary: Just allowing it doesn't matter if it's been that way for 15 years, just those powerful words you said.
• 58:45
  Mary: Up until now we've done it this way.
• 58:49
  Suzanne: I've seen couples where the woman has been like, actually I want to go back to work, like I miss this, and the dude's like, yeah, I'll be the house husband or the house person or whatever you want to call it.
• 58:58
  Suzanne: And it's like, yeah, it's not typically that way, but why not?
• 59:02
  Suzanne: And sometimes we just put up because we've always done it.
• 59:05
  Suzanne: But if you don't voice and, as I said up until now, softens it.
• 59:08
  Suzanne: But what tends to happen is we put up, put up, put up, put up and explode.
• 59:12
  Suzanne: People pleasers are exploding doormats and then the relationship is.
• 59:16
  Suzanne: But if you start to voice, not in a sneaky hinty kind of way, but in a this is how it's been and I desire change.
• 59:23
  Suzanne: From that point you'll find almost everyone is on board and there will be some people who push back, but it will be a lot less than you think.
• 59:31
  Suzanne: In all the times I've had a boundary conversation, I can think of only two that really exploded.
• 59:37
  Suzanne: And then to me, honestly, if I was only keeping those people in my life because I was placating them, is that the kind of friendships that I want to be part of?
• 59:44
  Suzanne: And honestly, no, I value myself more enough that if the only thing we're getting out of this is you getting something and I'm not at the expense of.
• 59:51
  Suzanne: I don't desire that anymore.
• 59:55
  Mary: Wow, that was a beautiful concluding sentence.
• 59:57
  Mary: So I know that we can find all of your stuff at SuzanneKohlbergcom forward slash everything right, which I love, your everything page.
• 1:00:09
  Mary: Is there anything you want to recap for what I mean?
• 1:00:12
  Mary: You have your, you have a podcast, the Nope Coach.
• 1:00:15
  Suzanne: So I have a podcast, I have the I know things readings and I don't coach anymore.
• 1:00:20
  Suzanne: But if you do have, if you want to book a session, I have a session called the wallop and if you, it's just one hour, it's not a package, it's not an underhanded single thing trying to get you into something bigger.
• 1:00:31
  Suzanne: Like if you're like, okay, I've set this boundary or I'm nervous about setting this boundary or whatever, book one of those sessions.
• 1:00:37
  Suzanne: And honestly I'm a straight shooter, sharp talker, like this is how it is.
• 1:00:41
  Suzanne: I can't stand like I think the online business world is having a reckoning right now in terms of you think you've bought something and actually it's.
• 1:00:48
  Suzanne: I remember signing up for something once.
• 1:00:50
  Suzanne: That was six months and the very first call they're like you're here for three years.
• 1:00:53
  Suzanne: I was like wait, what?
• 1:00:54
  Suzanne: So it's like, seriously, it was.
• 1:00:56
  Suzanne: So it's like that's.
• 1:00:58
  Suzanne: I'm fully transparent.
• 1:01:00
  Suzanne: But you know I've got like nearly 500 episodes of my podcast.
• 1:01:04
  Suzanne: Chances are you'll find something related to the boundary thing that you have.
• 1:01:07
  Suzanne: Or just send me a message.
• 1:01:08
  Suzanne: I've got on my contact page, my website.
• 1:01:10
  Suzanne: I don't do DMs, but I do love email.
• 1:01:12
  Mary: Yeah, no, you're right, we are.
• 1:01:14
  Mary: There's a lot of mistrust now and I think we are unfortunately caught up in that, but you found a refreshing way to address it by just being straight.
• 1:01:24
  Mary: So thank you so much for being here.
• 1:01:25
  Mary: You totally made my week and this was a very fun conversation, thank you.
• 1:01:30
  Mary: Thank you everyone for listening.
• 1:01:32
  Mary: I will put a link in the show notes so you can find Suzanne and explore everything she offers.
• 1:01:37
  Mary: Please take a second to forward this episode to someone you know who would benefit from hearing our conversation today.
• 1:01:44
  Mary: When friends have sent me links, it always makes me smile to know they were thinking of me.
• 1:01:48
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant Violet that you are.