Latest / Rev-n-u Unplugged / Title Inflation: The CRO Problem Nobody Wants to Admit

Transcript

Title Inflation: The CRO Problem Nobody Wants to Admit · Rev-n-u Unplugged

• james: Back to Revenue Unplugged. Today's guest has one of the most stacked go-to-market resumes in the game. She spent 11 years at HubSpot joining as an early rep and scaling enterprise sales from zero to fifty million dollars, all while riding the company's journey from 10 million to over a billion in revenue and an IPO. She even founded HubSpot for startups and grew it into a $200 million global business. From there, she went on to 3X revenue as SVP at Apollo, ran a P-backed company as CEO, and most recently leading go-to-market strategy at Lovable. I'm talking about Kim Walsh. We're tackling the question every board, every founder, and every candidate needs to answer right now. What is the real difference between a VP of sales and a true CRO? Why does that title get handed out way too freely at the 200 million ARR stage? And in this new AI native world, have the goalposts for revenue leaders completely shifted? We get into the black box of revenue. Why the average CRO only lasts 18 months? And what AI coaching can and absolutely cannot replace when it comes to building real trust with your team. This is a masterclass. Let's get to it. And if you're getting value from these conversations, please smash the like button and hit subscribe and you'll never miss an episode. Right, let's go. Kim, welcome to Revenue Unplugged. It's a joy to have you on the show. I've been looking forward to this conversation for some time. We've got some really interesting topics that you're going to talk to us about today. the difference between a startup revenue leader and a scale up CRO and why the goalposts have shifted in an AI native world. and there's lots of little nuances that we're going to go into and unpack on that. before we we do that, as always, I ask my guests to just tell our audience a little bit about themselves so they know who you are. Kim: That sounds great. Well, thanks, James. Pleasure to be here. I've loved getting to know you and love the podcast. So thanks. in terms of me, a little bit about me, I always say I'm I'm Canadian. I originally grew up in Canada, came to the US and have been in the US for largely twenty-six, twenty-five years now. And I've been fortunate to work for great companies helping them either at the startup stage or scale up stage. you know, started as an early employee at HubSpot, grew that to, you know. joined I think at under a hundred people, ten million in revenue, left at over a billion. was the head of revenue for a company called Apollo, then was a CEO, and then most recently helping Lovable as a go to market leader largely bring a lot of their talent and go to market motions to the US from Stockholm. So it's been quite fun. james: Awesome. I want to get straight into it with a bit of a reality check. we've spoken about this off-air a few times. The CRO title is given out quite freely, particularly in early stage, seed stage startups. what's your honest difference between someone calling themselves a CRO at let's say a 2 million ARL company and someone who's actually doing a CRO job? Kim: Yeah. And I I love this question. And I think the question and the answer actually really depends on either the founder or the co-founders and the role of w who are you hiring? Who are you looking to hire and why? Right? Like why do you want to hire either a VP of sales or a head of revenue or a CRO? I always love to ask that question largely to the CEO, co-founder. First and foremost. And and at what point and at what stage, right? And then th that's like the first piece to unpack. And then the second piece to unpack is what type of founder or co-founder and CEO are you, right? Many tech CEOs sort of come up in more of this like product engineering background, which is more common. some CEOs and founders in startups come from a go-to-market background. That is arguably a really tough background around Who they're hiring and why, and being a CRO and a true thought partner for that type of CEO, right? It I mean, I think both are kind of challenging, but both have are rewarding too. but just like to break it down, those two pieces are really important to like truly understand, right? Because as we think about the role of the CRO, the role of the CRO, and first and foremost, is that you won't you own all revenue, end to end revenue. And you are largely a thought partner of a CEO that is either a go-to-market type of CEO or a more product and energy, more technical CRO. Either scenario really matters to unpack and like how they see the world and how your role as that CRO is truly a thought partner to them in helping unlock revenue for the entire company and bring those functions together. largely marketing, sales, customer success. You could even put like four deployed engineers in there now in an AI native company. Where do they sit? What is the role in driving revenue? Or a VP of sales and why do you need that person? And what do you need in that true VP of sales? I think if we were to maybe oversimplify or simplify a little bit, I think the clear delineation after unpacking those sequence of questions, which I think are really important to ask if you're thinking about these roles, is james: The BPS sales supporting Kim: A VP of sales is pretty linear focused on driving sales, building that early team, but figuring it out yourself, kind of that player coach role of just sales in general. Like you're not really focusing on CS, you're not focusing, you're just like, how can we bring in new revenue to the business and then make sure that revenue stays? I think the best VPs of sales, james: And then make sure that revenue CD is and if the best movies Kim: you know, think about that a little bit end to end. But a true CRO is you are that. thought partner. You are you have a you have a take on pricing and packaging and you're really thinking about how do we unlock this revenue and thought partnership with the CEO, CFO, co-founders, board, investors. It's quite a strategic role. I I think there's a delineation there. But again, I think and just anchor back on making sure that each CEO or founder or co-founder that you're talking to really understands that delineation. james: Yeah. Kim: Because I I think I'm a But it might probably be for james: how do you think when someone's been called a CRO in a in a early stage Steve Thunder's business, do you think sometimes the board, the investors can view that person in a different light, expectations on them which aren't necessarily what the role is because of the title? Kim: Yeah. I think that's a great question. I think the answer is unequivocally yes, in a way of many CROs are hired today because they want to grow into that more strategic revenue role. And I think that's where, you know, you really need to make s sure that you understand like what is the role in the next thirty, sixty, ninety days, a hundred and twenty days. And if it's to grow into that role in an AI native company, great. How quickly are you growing into that role? But I think many CRO roles when you're first hired, especially if it's a first time CEO co-founder role, your job is to be a th like either a an a highly IC salesperson at that moment to learn it from the bottoms up, or truly be, you know, that head of sales role. And I and I do not think the best sales leaders I don't think they really care about it in a way of like I'm I james: Yeah. Kim: know what I'm getting into because I've asked all the great qualifying questions and I can wear multiple hats and you know, maybe you're checking hopefully you're checking your ego at the door there. But you're doing that DTS sales, you're doing that sales job first and foremost for the first 90 days, regardless. But I think if if if you haven't asked those questions and you don't really know, I I think if you show up in more of a strategic thought partner way and less of a I'm doing the role and I'm getting the wins and you know, here are the first five in the first thirty, sixty, ninety days, and you're able to articulate that to the board or investors, I I I it's a kind of a risky spot to be in. james: So if you're a founder and you're having a conversation with your VCs at the moment, your early stage, and they're saying or either the founder's saying or the the VC saying needs to go hire a CRO. what conversation, discussion point should they be having there to know is are they hiring the right person? Because I sometimes feel that Founders and board will look at we want to go from this revenue to this revenue without looking at what the actual problem is or challenges that needs to happen. So what conversation would you advise that they have removing title before they go out and do that to avoid them making a hiring mistake? Kim: I think the first thing is a little bit of like unpack like leading with curiosity and unpacking that statement, right? Okay, you need a CRO. Okay, good interesting, right? Like I I'm feeling that same way too, right? Let's unpack this together of why what do we need in that role? Let's take let's like to your point, let's take this the role of the CRO off the piece of paper right now or off this working dock and let's say, okay, what do where are we today? Revenue, team size, operational rigor. Where are we today and where do we need to go? And how quickly do we need to get there? And then break that down. Because I james: Yeah. Kim: also think if we you know, many people around the CRO role is how operation you don't want like a super operationally minded CRO, in my opinion. You know, you want a true strategic leader that can solve for the long term. That's quite different. Because if you are if you make that CRO hire too early, you know, and you don't unpack that in that skill set sheet or that document or james: Mm. Kim: like as you unpack this with your board and investors, and you don't unpack that right hand person around what is the go to market ops team look like? What does the system look like? Where are we? And how quickly do we need to get the like the operating backbone set up to match the go to market? You know, there can be some disconnect there. or your CR CRO will start and they will essentially be ahead of the operational layer of the systems and the systems have to be set up in order to truly scale. So I think unpacking those two of like, where are we? What's what person do we need? What skill set do we need? Who is the and like anywhere picking anywhere between like three to five archetypes of like example of LinkedIn profiles that you know, you like their kind of backgrounds, independent of the role. And then on the other side is like, okay, what does this like operating backbone look like? And then I think the other side to that, which has been a really interesting reflection in my career, is like how much in a and more in like software companies, right? But like how much is the product giving us a major tailwind versus how much is the go to market and essentially like sales team giving us a tailwind? I have seen Journeys where you know the product isn't quite where it needs to be. So you need this like really tight and rigorous sales team to build this repeatability and find the repeatability. Or you're like strike lightning in this in this bottle and your sales team needs to catch up and you have zero time right now to focus more on like the operational how to get there. And it's truly just like, you know, no one does forecasting, no one does pipeline reviews. You're building this methodology and the building the plane and flying it at the same time. You know, the operations are pretty chaotic. You just don't have time to set that up and you just have to go. and and close the the revenue where like demand is just totally outpacing what you have set up. I've seen those scenarios too. So I I think it I think this changes and it's moving so quickly that it it really matters. And then I think the other thing that we aren't talking about here that has to go into that little whether it's a document or that conversation that you're having with the board and investors is, you know, how much of this business and this growth is sales led versus self-serving product led. Because sometimes see people get hired where it's like, I'm building on an enterprise sales team and revenue's like two million, where a full serve like product led product is prone to hundreds of million. so I think think so much of it is unpacking, you know, to make sure everyone's on the same page. 'Cause your questions are james: Love it. Kim: like what do you do with the board and investors when they ask you that question or they make that recommendation to you. I think you'd really truly gotta unpack that. because there's something james: Tää meissä. Kim: to the last thing there's something to be said with this role lasting 18 months. You know, james: Yeah. Kim: it's it's it's really, really hard to get right. so I think you just really gotta unpack it. Try and get the right higher. james: it's a super challenge time because also you get candidates pushing for the title as well. So it's not just on the the board making decisions on that part. moving on, you've spoken to me a few times about revenue not being a black box, but in practice a lot of founders treat it exactly like one. In your opinion, what does opening the box actually look like in a year one company? before you have the data and the teams and the properly built systems around it. Kim: Mm-hmm. I think that's a good question because to me, I think it really is about like just focusing on some of the basics of like what are my inputs and what are my outputs? You know, so many leaders today, especially CROs, are talking about, you know, it's like, how AI native are we and how AI native is our sales org? To then truly, you know, three, four months go by and they're like, wait, we actually haven't changed too much and we're going back. basics. So I think as we think about the beginning pieces of this journey is just like what are my inputs? You know, does either like starting with like, am I dealing with inbound demand or are we dealing with target accounts and more of an outbound motion? You know, how many targeted accounts, how many target accounts do we have? What is our true ICP? What is our messaging? How is that messaging landing? You know, what do our what is our like simple activity metrics look like? What is our close rate? You know, how are we doing when we get an at bat? How much are we winning? why and then why are we losing? and you know, truly unpacking some of those like clothes lost reasons to learn from them. And then backing into the metrics of like how much do we need to hit our numbers and go from there? Like I I think the one of the things that I love most about sales is because when it feels chaotic and ambiguous, it really is a mathematical game. so you can james: Yeah. Kim: just on the simple inputs and outputs as an anchor. james: How how do you open up a founder's mind to to to think in that way and not have that black box mentality? It's not easy, is it? Kim: It's not easy. I do feel like many founders love the logic side and the mathematical equation of sales, right? I think I think the like the numbers are hard to argue with and the back in the basic blocking and tackling makes a lot of sense. So I think sometimes where I see more product minded founders get lost in the basic blocking and tackling. You know, just anchoring on the true metrics and North Stars and how we're gonna get there and break it down pretty easily. I feel like everyone gets on the same page pretty quickly. Especially if there's a a person in a role of like a head of finance or a CFO or even a COO. That conversation's pretty easy to have. Because those decisions all around the math, james: Mm. Kim: you know, or the hard ones, that's kind of like never that's like stay tried and true, for sales, james: Yeah. Kim: right? Like I don't know, I'll make a hundred dials, I'll get one meeting and every out of every ten meeting I'll close maybe hopefully three, or if I have three in the late stage of my pipeline, I'll close one, you know. My thirty three percent close rate's pretty good. Like those these this math is you james: Yeah. Kim: know, maybe it changes and maybe I haven't seen it, but like everything I've seen so far, it it stays james: Yeah. Kim: pretty true to the mathematical equation. james: For sure. how would you what advice would you give to a sales leader exploring startups to understand if the founder that they're joining is willing to open the black box rather than staying in the black box? I think that's an important assessment to make. Kim: I think it is too. And I think it starts with the best sales leaders ask the best questions. So, you know, I think I think that's hard. on the other side, when you are the CEO co-founder, is like you are you are meeting people who are asking you amazing questions and unpacking your answers. I james: Yeah. Kim: think just like authenticity around that is like really important because this is like a really hard role to get right. There's a reason why the average CRO lasts 18 months, you know, you you want to get it right and you want it to last hopefully longer. And like this person needs to be able to reinvent themselves as the growth journey happens and really quickly. So I think you need to be able to hire for like where you're going, but not too far out in front of the skis. And I think the other thing is like, I don't know. I think it's like you truly have to kind of see the world the same in a little james: Yeah. Kim: bit of a way. And what I mean by that is kind of like the value equation of how do you see the world and maybe it's a little bit more like culturally like aligned with, you james: Yeah. Kim: know, what type of sellers are you are you bringing in? What type of background do they have? How much experience do they have to make sure that you're just all on the same page when that starts to happen? Because, you know, naturally, especially in the startup role, you know, many founder CEOs have done that founder led sales and they're like letting go of control for the first time. james: Yeah. Kim: So that alignment is like so critical. james: I think being on the same page and having values somewhere is is is is super critical. In a startup, the energy is quite all over the place. Ordinarily the the first sales leader through the door is rewriting the playbook, sometimes monthly, depending on on how early it is and the success that's going on. How do you keep people anchored to the right baseline metrics when the ground keeps moving so quickly? Kim: Yeah. I think this is happening faster than ever. And I think s something that again, going back to kind of the basics or tried and true, is like commit to the day, commit to the week, commit to the month, and commit to the quarter. I think that's all we can really do as like go to market leaders as everything is shifting so quickly. And what does that mean and what does that look like? you know I I kn some companies that you are used to like annual planning now are doing like monthly planning, right? Headcount headcounts are shifting weekly, monthly, quarterly. Like they're shifting faster than ever. So you have to kind of like, you know, just mentally anchor in that, like commit to the day, commit to the week, commit to the month, and commit to the quarter. And if, you know, you can get everyone kind of rallied around that cadence and mindset, I I think it I think it serves the hyper growth. start up and scale ups pretty well. james: So is there anything that you could advise sales leaders for best practice that they can be reviewing, doing each week, which helps them stay on that on that cadence? Kim: I think it kind of goes to the basic blocking and tackling around, okay, and like that whole like building the plane and flying it at the same time is like, all right, well, like what are the components of the plane that we have right now? Where do we stand today? What are our key metrics? What are our inputs? What are the outputs? And then measure those. You know, it's kind of like calming bringing like calm and data to the noise and the chaos of everything that's shifting. And I think You know, there can be a handful of those metrics that you just kind of anchor to and then rally everyone around as you're as you're building it. Whether you're operating off of, you know, Google Sheets or something, or whether you have a CRM in place or whether you've vibe coded your own, you know, example of like what you want that early CRM james: Yeah. Kim: to be. I think that it all I all depends. But I I I guess the true, tried and true type of thing is like You just can't get caught up in the noise and you just have to go back to like what is like what is real? What can I measure here? That's in that's coming in and that's james: Yeah. Kim: going out essentially on the james: And and what would be an indication that you've gone away from it, that you've kind of taken your eye off it? Kim: I think examples are when I've witnessed or seen or myself taking the, you know, eye off the ball is when it feels like you're in a position of you know, maybe like just there's all so much demand coming in where you're like, This is ours to win, and you kind of l lose because you you you don't build that commit to the day, commit to the week, commit to the month, commit to the quarter. You don't build that either oper you don't bring that build that mindset or you don't build that like operational rigor into how the how you're operating and managing both yourself and the company and your teams. I think it's like really critical to do that. and I think if you lose sight of that, I think in a hypergost startup people around you start to feel it. And I think it becomes noisy and chaotic. And I think you know, we talked about like north, south, east and west. I think people are on you start to feel that, you know, maybe you're letting in too much noise. So just calmly that. And even like james: Yeah. I I think I I asked. Kim: I've seen l I've seen some great sales leaders like set a boundary of like during these hours, like I am not going to be on Slack. Because I want to be like present. and that's that's w what you need to do. as your leader in that like that's a bet you're making, right? If the company's running on s on a s system or running on Slack and you're choosing not to. I think that's the decision you're making. But if it helps you as that leader stay present, not h let the noise in and truly make these like key decisions that you're hired to do, I think it great. Like I think it's great, you know, I think it's like you gotta do what works for you because you're taking a bet. on yourself in these roles that are like really high intense, really hard. Not a lot coming at you at all times. Yeah. james: Yeah. I'm gonna put you a bit on the spot with this next question because I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, black or white. but it talks a lot about when does a when should a startup flip from startup mode to scale up mode? In your experience, is there a moment, is there a revenue number, is it a feeling within the business? Is it product market fit? When does it when do you stop being a startup and start being a scalar? Kim: I have no idea right now in the sense of like I feel like that used to be get to one like zero to one. Zero to james: Yeah. Kim: one million is hard. Okay, and then like one to ten. And like once you get from like zero to one and then one to ten and then, you know, ten to twenty, twenty to fifty, fifty to a hundred, that's like, you know, those are that's like the scale up journey. And at twenty million you need more of like a scale up type person. I have no idea. today because you can see companies going from zero to a hundred million as quickly as possible. I think the key thing is what is this sales led? Like where do we need a true sales team, and salespeople? And that is like a true delineation. I think it's less of the overall revenue and I think how much revenue are we are we truly building in this sales led business? Like, you know, I think If I just pull from let's say like lovable, then Apollo, then HubSpot, like it it was a grind for from james: Mm. Kim: HubSpot to get to, you know, zero to ten and then ten to a hundred. you know, Apollo, same thing. Zero to twenty was was pretty hard. I think there were like three james: Mm. Kim: different starts. And then f going from twenty to sixty in a year and truly pulling on the sales led side of that journey to then, you know. when I started it was twenty million Series C to then at the end of that, you know, call it twelve month period of time, sixty million series D, you know, the and and really convincing or turning on that sales led piece of that business, the going up market piece to a like really pretty stealthy product led self served business was was a really hard change, I think james: Mm-hmm. Kim: for the CO co founder to do at that moment in time. I think that that was like about twenty million. But then lovable, you know, growing from zero to a hundred million very fast, or growing from a hundred million to five hundred million very fast. Like I it's a tough question and I think my honest answer is just like I don't I don't necessarily know it's kind of interesting to see james: Yeah. Do do you think there is a difference anymore? everybody seems to be in a hurry because there are Kim: There's no james: now very true businesses that have done things quickly and everybody wants to emulate that. Is everybody now just a scaler? and everybody's like looking to get revenue as quickly as possible, exits are happening quicker. than before for a number of different reasons of business weren't too quite right. So is it fair to say that you're a startup and a scaler because you've just started but you are scaling and now there is no divide, no difference between the two? Kim: I think it's a good I think it's a good kind of good push, good question. I think, yeah, you kinda probably have to wear most like multiple hats, right? And if you are a scale up, you have multiple startups starting within it, right? unless you're in like a massive market. So I would say, yeah, in today's landscape you have to wear both hats and then just as like how quickly you're going to scale up and still kinda having your startup DNA and then creating multiple different startups inside of a scale up. I mean that that's when it gets like pretty fun. I personally think scale up mode I think can be kind of boring and linear if there's like you know, if you're not james: Yeah. Kim: taking multiple swings. But I think it's comes back to two true. Is like how big of a swing are you taking against a market? And I think the bigger question on today like in today's revenue leaders' mind should truly be like, do we have zero churn? james: Yeah. Kim: Is like again, like what what do our retention metrics look like and how you know how quickly are we getting revenue to how quickly hopefully or like yeah are we keeping the revenue and james: Yeah. Kim: that is like so so so critical and ROI and impact and value of that spend, I think everyone needs to rally around it. because I just think as quickly as companies grow, you can see it go out the door as quickly and yeah. james: Makes sense totally. you've spoken about making sure there's a connection between revenue and the the board, particularly when the board are just looking for numbers. What are some of the ways you can say where they can make sure that the narrative lands with the the investors? how often should they be in communication with the board and what should they be telling the board? Kim: I think in any revenue role, your entire being and narrative and talk track is about putting points on the board. I think it is all about revenue and about the numbers. I think everything outside of that is noise and I think communicating early and often and being and offering up you know, weekly, bi weekly, monthly syncs, you know, with active board members. And investors is is really important because it really also is about building that relationship and building trust. But all of that is around making sure that you're putting the points on the board and beating james: Yeah. Kim: the and be beating the number. you know. I think anything outside of that to have a conversation around and to focus on puts you kind of in like danger zone territory. Yeah. james: Yeah, yeah. No, that's a good point there. I I want to talk about coaching now versus managing. if you look up data, it will normally tell you that around about 76% of leaders have never received any training on how to be an effective coach. And if you flip that the other way, a lot of reps will tell you that coaching is pipeline review. Basically. what do you why do you think so many leaders mistake management for leadership? Kim: I love this question. I think there is a very stark difference between management and leadership. I think leadership is everything outside of a pipeline review. I think it is you're being watched as a leader way more, I think, than people realize around how are you making decisions, who's in the decision that you're making, how are you communicating that? How are you showing up? What is what is your vibe? you know, are you are you present? Are you calm? Are you distracted? You know, you have to as a leader, you have to manage yourself first and foremost before you can lead others. And I think how you lead others really matters in the in especially in the critical moments. And I think setting those boundaries that you have as a leader is like really important to communicate. I think that's first and foremost. I think management is the key thing of like Maybe being a little bit prescriptive at times if you need to be, maybe even saying, like, hey, I'm putting on my like management hat right now. I'm giving you this direct feet feedback. I am telling you a little bit more like how to do the job that I'm not seeing, james: Mm. Kim: versus leading and inspiring are are two totally different things. And I think people confuse them all the time. And I think in today's world, as you have broader ratios, have you as you are wearing more player coach hats. in the true like AI native world, like I I think your human connection, your building trust, that leadership hat is more more critical than ever. And the management hat can, you know, if someone's pretty motivated, you know, they can build their own AI coach. They can get that type of like management based on like how did I just that last call? You know, review my pipeline, help me dissect it. You know, those are the things that you can can do. on your own or hopefully you're pretty motivated as an individual contributor to do that. But management and leadership I I think are kind of james: Who's responsible for a leader getting the training on coaching and how to be a great leader? Because I imagine most investors board would say, I'm paying you to be the complete package. Like they're paid in many cases huge amounts of money. where do you think it lands on the individual themselves at that point that they should be going out and and and getting the mentors, the coaching themselves, or does it land on the responsibility of the the employer? Kim: I think that's a good question. I think if you're in a situation where you have investors and you have a board that is sort of saying, you know, we are not going to be investing in coaching of the leaders, then you need to go find leaders who have been at companies that you probably admire in a way, of their ethos, their culture, and these individuals have received coaching. in some way, shape or form from some great leaders along the way. Like I think you have to go find that. I think I think ultimately the paradigm has shifted. I think five years ago the answer would be unequivocally, it's on the company. I think now the answer is more on the div individual now than ever, to to create and find their own paths to receive the help that they need. and you are hired And when you're hired on day one to do the job, you know, you gotta start. The runway is right james: Yeah. Kim: there. You gotta you gotta go. and if you are in a leadership role and then you are flagging you need leadership coaching after you've taken the role, you know, I I I don't think in today's landscape there's really time for it. james: No, I totally agree with you. I think it is something that should be a self-motivation to improve and get better, and you should be out seeking it all the time and and and talking to people. So totally agree with you on that one. want to talk about AI and and training. There's a huge wave of money going into AI sales training, coaching at the moment, role plays, objection handling, instant call feedback. Where do you think it genuinely helps? And where does it give leaders false confidence that the development is happening when it actually isn't? Kim: that's a great that's a great question because I've seen like on the management director level, I've seen their like on AI coaches, I've seen at the individual level like their AI coaches. I've s also seen like reflection weekly on the coaching side of like granola and all the conversations that you're having. I think it falls flat in today's world on making assumptions that it's good enough. james: Yeah. Kim: I think again it gets you eighty percent of the way there. And I think that additional twenty percent is the true role of a human being, you know, understanding, building trust, building connection. you know, maybe you're saving room for like one key like start, stop, continue as opposed to five, but like what your Your judgment, your taste, your agency, like those three areas are around the coaching and the leadership bucket, like they they need to be world class today. and you need to make time for them. And you need to make time for building the building the connection with prospects, with customers, with accounts, with your teams, cross functionally. Like AAI can do so much, but it it cannot build that trust and that human connection. I think that's the most important area. focus on. So I don't I don't think you should think it's I think you should have like a very skeptical lens on it and james: Mm. Kim: always like finish the twenty percent, maybe even fifty percent of of people to make them like great. I think the bo I think like people who want to be great today and do that own like self assessment, the own AI coaching, you know, you can just like help them amplify faster. But yeah. james: Yeah. I guess that leads on to my next question and and and part of that the the answer question might be what you just alluded to there around trust. But if a salesperson's entire coaching is AI role play and automated feedback, which it seems a lot of companies are looking to to go down, what are they not learning that only comes from real human relationships? Kim: Well, especially if you're in like a sales led business or an enterprise sales role or a strategic sales role, you know, anything outside of a transactional sales role, if you are in person today, you know, AI can't read how you were in person. They cannot help you read the room. They cannot help you how did you show up? you know, how are you representing the company you work for? How are you representing yourself? What is your energy level? Like there's so much that AI cannot necessarily read and so much of that I think matters more now than ever. Like people are in person, events are, you know, and community, like in person is v very, very, very much back. And james: Yeah. Kim: out I just I think that all matters, right? It matters for james: Hundred percent. Kim: revenue leaders, it matters for founders. I mean, the fact that there's so much of this like founder etiquette coaching happening. I think that's james: Yeah. Kim: Maybe it's muted now more than ever, right? It's we all sat in front of in tech, we all sat in front of our computers for a really long time. Now we're getting back out with people. Yeah, you can, you know, build a connection with someone over a video, but like how do you show up in person? How do you look someone james: Yeah. Kim: in the eyes? my God, all of that matters so much. Especially around building trust. Yeah. james: Love that. Love that. I've got one more question before I let you get back to the day. I know you've got so much going on. but if you had one piece of advice for a revenue leader who's just walked into their first 90 days at a series B company, someone who knows the numbers but isn't sure how to build the culture and trust at the same time, what would be your advice on that? Kim: What a question. Series B, how do you build the culture and the team? Step one, I think, is honoring the well. Honoring what got the team and the company. The company, the team, the customers. Honor what got everyone to that point. And then think james: Yeah. What does that what does that mean? Kim: it means take what, acknowledge what's good. Acknowledge what acknowledge where the momentum is. Acknowledge what went right. to then amplify. And build the momentum in air in on what's going w right. Like don't don't mess up what's going right. And fill in a couple of the like 10x, 100x swings of and be very clear on what those, let's call them three, you know, hundred X or ten X bets are of like we're gonna take these three bets over this time frame. Let's see how like, you know, chances are one of them is gonna work out really well. but like really build off of that momentum. I think sometimes I've seen leaders come in and have like this skepticism and forget that just because they're hired, like it's just like you gotta james: Yeah. Kim: understand. Some of the early employees, you know, they've done something really well. and they've done they've done something pretty special there. The company, james: Yeah. Kim: what is that? And, you know, I think you've got a short window of time to to codify that, to understand what that is, and then communicate your acknowledgement of that and then build off of that. think the best leaders can do that. Really, really, really james: Yeah. And and how important in that first ninety days is conversations with the team to show vulnerability, to build that trust with the salespeople? Kim: I think it's everything. I think it has to start on day one. Yeah. james: Yeah. And and how important would you say is it for leaders to not to go in there to beat the chest. I'm in charge now and trying to have an immediate impact that I was here brought in to do this and this is what we're going to do. Kim: I think that from day one, I think that's one of the key things at a risk that a leader who's been successful in their past can come in and and try and prove too quickly. I think the vulnerabilities, the acknowledgement of what's gone really well, the momentum, the articulation and communication of that momentum and the building off of that and the humility to know that you've done it with others and getting others wins. I think that's a balance where like you've got to point put points on the board if you're that player coach, but you also have to bring others along. And I think I I think that starts from day one. Yeah. I think yeah, a healthy james: Sure. Kim: skepticism is good, but like a skepticism on the people who've got them there. I just think like if you can hold that back for a little hold that back. I don't think it serves anyone. and I've seen it and it it just doesn't feel right. I think people can smell that. james: Kim, I super appreciate all your time on this. it's a really difficult conversation, really difficult topics there that you've shared your points of view on. that I think will help a huge amount of of people that watch these shows. So thank you so, so much for all your time. Kim: Thanks for having me, James, and thanks for putting me on the spot. I really had to think about some of those, so thank you. james: Awesome. Right, let me