Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / The Thrive Framework: 8 Pillars of a Flourishing Life, with Dr Pam King

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The Thrive Framework: 8 Pillars of a Flourishing Life, with Dr Pam King · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

0:10
Speaker 1: Pob King. Welcome to the podcast.
0:12
Speaker 2: Oh thank you, Paul, thrilled to be here.
0:15
Speaker 1: Now you've got an interesting background, right, you are a
0:18
Speaker 1: professor of applied developmental science, and you're also the executive
0:25
Speaker 1: director of the Thrive Center, and you're also an ordained minister.
0:30
Speaker 1: So tell me how do you know all that come about?
0:34
Speaker 1: I can see the connections for sure, But what came first?
0:40
Speaker 2: What came first? That's a great question. I thought I
0:43
Speaker 2: was going to go to business school and go into marketing,
0:45
Speaker 2: so it all was a huge surprise to me. But
0:49
Speaker 2: in looking back, it is all connected. It makes great sense.
0:52
Speaker 2: I grew up in the Chicago area in the US,
0:57
Speaker 2: and so I think faith came first for me. I
1:01
Speaker 2: found myself profoundly at home in a Presbyterian church as
1:06
Speaker 2: a younger kid, and I think I was really interested
1:09
Speaker 2: in questions of like meaning in purpose and why we're
1:12
Speaker 2: here as humans, probably an unusual age, and found a
1:16
Speaker 2: lot of answers in my experience of religion and experiencing
1:22
Speaker 2: a God who I thought was loving. As I went
1:26
Speaker 2: through college, I was pursuing psychology. I think I was
1:29
Speaker 2: asking questions of like, Okay, why are people the way
1:32
Speaker 2: they are and how do they become more fully who
1:35
Speaker 2: they should be? And that's where my interests really started
1:39
Speaker 2: to evolve. And I actually ended up in graduate school
1:43
Speaker 2: first for theology. But I got frustrated because, like, as
1:47
Speaker 2: much as I'm interested in sacred texts actually from various traditions,
1:51
Speaker 2: though my expertise is in Christian the Christian Protestant tradition,
1:56
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, there's not as much insight into
1:58
Speaker 2: what brings about change. And I might guess from your background,
2:02
Speaker 2: you know, religion can do a really hell of a
2:05
Speaker 2: job shaming people and not always bringing up the best
2:10
Speaker 2: in people. But I saw a potential in my faith
2:13
Speaker 2: tradition like this should be loving and should bring life
2:18
Speaker 2: out of people in why doesn't it more often? And
2:22
Speaker 2: then I got more serious about psychology to understand that.
2:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, cool, I will jump into the Thrive center. And
2:29
Speaker 1: my experience growing up with religion is a little bit
2:31
Speaker 1: different than yours because I grew up in Northern Ireland.
2:36
Speaker 1: I mean you said Presbyterian Church. I felt some sales
2:40
Speaker 1: in my body tighten up. Not the reason being and
2:46
Speaker 1: I the reson being. I was born and reised as
2:50
Speaker 1: a Catholic in Northern Ireland right and the Presbyterians or
2:54
Speaker 1: the other side of the fence. But I was born
2:57
Speaker 1: actually from a mixed marriage, which has a different comedy
3:00
Speaker 1: in Northern Ireland and everywhere else. And I remember, yeah,
3:04
Speaker 1: I used to go to Mass with my mum, who
3:06
Speaker 1: had to she had to convert from being a Protestant
3:09
Speaker 1: to being a Catholic for my parents to get married, right,
3:12
Speaker 1: you couldn't, they wouldn't marry them. But anyway, I, you know,
3:17
Speaker 1: I was going to church and all of that, and
3:20
Speaker 1: you mentioned she and I think you know that turned
3:24
Speaker 1: me off the Catholic religion, the whole ship, the idea
3:28
Speaker 1: that the Catholics have of original sing. When I started
3:33
Speaker 1: to really think about that and then all the other
3:36
Speaker 1: stuff of the Catholic Church, I really got turned off religion.
3:39
Speaker 1: But I am very interested in spirituality, in flourishing meaning purpose.
3:45
Speaker 1: But the Greeks referred to as telling us or tell us,
3:50
Speaker 1: and so we'd love to do a deeper dive into
3:54
Speaker 1: all of this. Now, talk to me about what you
3:57
Speaker 1: guys do at the Thrive Center.
4:00
Speaker 2: Sure. So the Thrive Center is technically what I would
4:04
Speaker 2: call a translational research center, which means we do research
4:09
Speaker 2: as in psychological empirical research, and we translate that into
4:16
Speaker 2: resources that can help people thrive in our case. So
4:20
Speaker 2: I have this crazy title of being an applied developmental psychologist,
4:25
Speaker 2: and applied psychology is just research that happens in real life,
4:30
Speaker 2: as opposed to like bringing people in a lab and
4:32
Speaker 2: a sterile controlled situation. We say, heckno, people live in
4:37
Speaker 2: really messy context whether it's Northern Ireland with mixed marriages
4:40
Speaker 2: and different religious beliefs or mad cow disease or whatever's happening.
4:44
Speaker 2: But people live in really complex worlds like today twenty
4:48
Speaker 2: twenty six is pretty dwn and complex. So what does
4:51
Speaker 2: it mean? I'm really interested in what does it mean
4:53
Speaker 2: to thrive in the messiness and the nuanced places of life?
4:59
Speaker 2: And how do we that uniquely as individuals, regardless of
5:03
Speaker 2: our spiritual religious beliefs, but that can come into it.
5:08
Speaker 1: I love the applied psychology. I got a PhD in
5:11
Speaker 1: applied psychology and it's like that's where psychology meets the
5:15
Speaker 1: real world. Right now. That's let's first of all talk
5:20
Speaker 1: about So when you were talking about developmental psychology, we
5:24
Speaker 1: know there's an there's an existential crisis going on. In
5:29
Speaker 1: many parts of the world, which you know I did
5:33
Speaker 1: say earlier on I'm a religious but I actually think
5:38
Speaker 1: a big chunk of that existential crisis is the breakdown
5:43
Speaker 1: of religion. Even though I'm not a fan of it,
5:45
Speaker 1: I think what it does very well all religions, and
5:50
Speaker 1: they give people a moral code, a set of values,
5:54
Speaker 1: a tribe of people who are like minded, right, and
5:59
Speaker 1: that whole idea of being part of something that is
6:02
Speaker 1: bigger than yourself. So talk to just about the difference
6:10
Speaker 1: in the overlap between spirituality and religion, and as an
6:16
Speaker 1: extension of that question, what does functional spirituality look like?
6:22
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I love that functional spirituality super
6:27
Speaker 2: interesting because there's a turn at least in the US
6:29
Speaker 2: like functional medicine. Not just medicine for like curing pathology
6:34
Speaker 2: or disease, but what's functional medicine? So I'd love to
6:36
Speaker 2: talk about functional spirituality. But first because I am a
6:41
Speaker 2: twenty five year NERD geek in the Academy that actually
6:44
Speaker 2: studies these things theoretically in people's lives. So it's really important,
6:48
Speaker 2: I think and helpful to distinguish between religion and spirituality.
6:52
Speaker 2: And first I would say they're not two isolated things.
6:54
Speaker 2: There's lots of overing. I think spirituality is the way
6:59
Speaker 2: people are in the world, in the ways that they
7:02
Speaker 2: make meaning, and that they seek and search for something
7:06
Speaker 2: that's sacred, that's something that has meaning beyond the mundane
7:11
Speaker 2: in ordinary of life. For some people, that it's a
7:13
Speaker 2: metaphysical other like a god. For other people it can
7:17
Speaker 2: be nature. I interviewed someone who was really able to
7:22
Speaker 2: explain how mathematics brought order in beauty and a sense
7:26
Speaker 2: of love to their life. The spectrum for others, it
7:31
Speaker 2: can be found in art, even people. And so we
7:34
Speaker 2: talk about finding transcendence. So people transcend this world, this
7:40
Speaker 2: mundane world, in many ways and they make meaning through
7:43
Speaker 2: it and it does.
7:45
Speaker 1: Sorry Pat Pam, can I just say what transcendence? Does
7:49
Speaker 1: that have to be transcend transcending the world or is
7:54
Speaker 1: that transcending me as an individuals separate from everything else?
8:00
Speaker 2: Both? And I would I like to describe like almost
8:03
Speaker 2: a spectrum of transcendence. So the first the first is
8:06
Speaker 2: beyond the self, and sometimes we call that psychologists will
8:10
Speaker 2: call that self transcendence. So just getting beyond the self,
8:14
Speaker 2: realizing like, oh, there's a community around me, there's an environment,
8:18
Speaker 2: there's a political cause, like there are many things that
8:21
Speaker 2: can enable us psychedelics to move beyond ourselves. And then
8:26
Speaker 2: there might be you know, I don't I don't know
8:28
Speaker 2: that the spectrum is linear, But then you could go
8:30
Speaker 2: to a metaphysical other in somewhere along the way might
8:35
Speaker 2: be your ethnicity, your country, a sense of nationalism or patriotism.
8:41
Speaker 2: My husband is a huge sports fan.
8:44
Speaker 1: I was to say, I was fout to say a
8:46
Speaker 1: sports tape.
8:48
Speaker 2: Absolutely I live. I don't know if you're familiar with
8:50
Speaker 2: the Rose Bowl, it's one of us.
8:53
Speaker 1: A Pasadena rose you know what. I saw the Rolling
8:58
Speaker 1: Stones capacity in the Rose Bowl in nineteen ninety five
9:03
Speaker 1: or something like that.
9:05
Speaker 2: I lived here then. I had just come to gradate
9:07
Speaker 2: school and the president of my seminary went he's a
9:12
Speaker 2: PhD in philosophy from University of Chicago, and I can
9:15
Speaker 2: remember him in chapel talking about the transcendence at the
9:19
Speaker 2: road in the voodoo how the mystery the voodoo lounge
9:23
Speaker 2: of the Rose Bowl. But yes, so concerts, beauty, there's
9:29
Speaker 2: lots of ways that we can become elevated or have
9:33
Speaker 2: that sense of self transcendence.
9:35
Speaker 1: And so where is there a difference in your mind
9:40
Speaker 1: or are we losing something with the move away? And
9:45
Speaker 1: mostly in developed nations, I think it's it's more common
9:50
Speaker 1: there the move away from religion to I think there's
9:55
Speaker 1: there's two things here. There's a move away from religion
9:58
Speaker 1: and the vacuum that's not But then there's the move
10:02
Speaker 1: away from religion to spirituality. So do you think being
10:06
Speaker 1: spiritual but not religious, are we missing anything as secular beings?
10:13
Speaker 1: Is there anything that we're missing?
10:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would like to say there is, But I
10:18
Speaker 2: like so we can go back to that question about
10:19
Speaker 2: functional spirituality, So and I might go back to the
10:23
Speaker 2: first first question about the distinction. So spirituality is how
10:27
Speaker 2: we transcend ourselves, make meaning more mature. Spirituality actually informs
10:33
Speaker 2: your sense of identity and how you live like it
10:35
Speaker 2: gives you meaning and actually can provide coherence and actually
10:40
Speaker 2: direct your behavior. So often people just think of like
10:43
Speaker 2: a spiritual experiences like awe and wonder or psychedelics, but
10:47
Speaker 2: real spirituality actually has transformative impact on your life. So
10:52
Speaker 2: then religious traditions tend to be more codified communities that
10:57
Speaker 2: have doctrines and beliefs and ritual and practices and community
11:02
Speaker 2: that help people pursue those ends and in your best.
11:07
Speaker 2: So then when we look at functional spirituality, and this
11:10
Speaker 2: is a lot of what I do is not just
11:12
Speaker 2: understanding what is the psychology of spiritual development, but how
11:16
Speaker 2: can spirituality benefit us? And when does it go wrong,
11:20
Speaker 2: whether inside religion or not. So functional spirituality or spirituality
11:25
Speaker 2: that's good, Yes, has this transcendence, whether it's secular or not.
11:29
Speaker 2: But it also has relationships in community. And so often
11:34
Speaker 2: when we pursue individual spirituality, we are bereft of that
11:39
Speaker 2: tribe that you mentioned towards the beginning of the people
11:42
Speaker 2: who allow you and support you living out your convictions,
11:48
Speaker 2: affirm you for who you are and your individuality and
11:51
Speaker 2: your strengths and your sense of meaning and purpose. I
11:55
Speaker 2: actually have a thrive acronym because I study thriving, so
11:59
Speaker 2: that T starts stands for transcendence, finding a source of awe,
12:05
Speaker 2: a source of cosmic love, ultimate source of love. H
12:10
Speaker 2: actually is for habits and rhythms. So whereas religion offers
12:15
Speaker 2: us various practices and rhythms of rest, of celebration, of connection,
12:21
Speaker 2: of work, healthy functional forms of spirituality also offer healthy practices,
12:27
Speaker 2: whether mindfulness, whether you know reflection, journaling, walks. There's lots
12:35
Speaker 2: of different spiritual practices and also incorporates rhythms. And the
12:40
Speaker 2: R and thrive is that relationships and community. So he's
12:43
Speaker 2: encourage people like, if you're pursuing your own sort of spirituality,
12:48
Speaker 2: if you're kind of renegotiating the religion you were brought
12:51
Speaker 2: up with and trying to figure out where you are,
12:54
Speaker 2: bring others alongside you, or find a community that you
12:57
Speaker 2: can share that wrestling with. And then the I is
13:02
Speaker 2: for identity and personal narrative, Like healthy functional spirituality offers
13:09
Speaker 2: you a healthy sense of identity that affirms who you are, Paul,
13:13
Speaker 2: for all your uniqueness, your varied experiences, the communities that
13:19
Speaker 2: you belong to, your heritage you've got You've already mentioned
13:23
Speaker 2: you're Irish, you've got Protestant blood, Catholic blood, You're you're
13:27
Speaker 2: figuring out what that mix means. You live in Australia.
13:31
Speaker 2: So our spirituality affirms our own unique narrative, but it
13:35
Speaker 2: offers a bigger narrative to be a part of. And
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Speaker 2: I think in this existential crisis, as people are leaving religion,
13:43
Speaker 2: it's like who do I belong to? Like cosmically, or
13:46
Speaker 2: even like from a communal and so good spirituality helps
13:51
Speaker 2: people weave themselves into a bigger narrative to make sense
13:55
Speaker 2: of their life.
13:57
Speaker 1: That's that's pretty to be get to the a sorry, would.
14:00
Speaker 2: No, no no. And then the stands for vocation and purpose. Yeah,
14:05
Speaker 2: vocation and purpose. So I often feel like spirituality has
14:10
Speaker 2: to do with like experiencing transcendent love, love beyond ourselves.
14:14
Speaker 2: And then purpose is how we live that love out
14:17
Speaker 2: as ourselves. So we all need a purpose where we
14:21
Speaker 2: are contributing beyond the self. And religions like will give
14:26
Speaker 2: you a telos to use that word be used at
14:28
Speaker 2: the beginning, like it's prescribed. Sometimes it's less obvious than others.
14:34
Speaker 2: And so functional spiritualities provided tellos like this is purpose
14:39
Speaker 2: capital P for human life. And then your job in
14:44
Speaker 2: your own spirituality is to work out your own sense
14:47
Speaker 2: of purpose. So how do you show up as an
14:50
Speaker 2: academic who's really great at engaging public, who cares about
14:54
Speaker 2: transformation and making a difference, Like how do you do that?
14:58
Speaker 2: How do you find your purpose? And then the last
15:00
Speaker 2: e is you also mentioned at the beginning, it's the
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Speaker 2: ethics and the virtues and so many Western prescriptions around
15:09
Speaker 2: thriving or flourishing have to do with individual success and
15:13
Speaker 2: completely overlook like as humans we are ethical beings, like
15:18
Speaker 2: we live with one another, and when we have a
15:21
Speaker 2: sense of right and wrong, that just helps us behave
15:25
Speaker 2: in ways that make our lives more meaningful and relate
15:29
Speaker 2: better to people. And we often overlook that. And that's
15:32
Speaker 2: psychology has been really helpful to understand, Like, hmm, being
15:36
Speaker 2: a moral person is actually really important to your long
15:39
Speaker 2: term well being.
15:41
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean sorry, no, no, you finish.
15:45
Speaker 2: Oh, it doesn't mean like a codified like rules that
15:48
Speaker 2: never change like you might have experienced in religion. But
15:52
Speaker 2: it's really an evolving set of ethics and a sense
15:56
Speaker 2: of virtue that allows you to work and.
16:01
Speaker 1: That and I love that, I really really really like that.
16:06
Speaker 1: That that whole thrive that transcendence, habits and rhythms, relationships
16:09
Speaker 1: to community identity, personal narrative, vocational purpose, ethics and virtues
16:14
Speaker 1: and really interesting to just explore a little bit of that.
16:19
Speaker 1: So if we take the US in particular, and that
16:25
Speaker 1: whole idea of the identity of being part of a tribe, right,
16:30
Speaker 1: and the US historically was you know, quite a religious country.
16:35
Speaker 1: I don't think there's been a single US president who
16:39
Speaker 1: has not talked a lot about God. And I don't
16:42
Speaker 1: think you can become a US president unless you're talking
16:45
Speaker 1: about God. I don't think they're ready for that right now.
16:48
Speaker 1: But there is a real breakdown of religion as well
16:53
Speaker 1: happening in the country and the rise of the individual,
16:57
Speaker 1: and particularly I think I think where there's that two
17:01
Speaker 1: things happening in the States. There's the breakdown of the individual,
17:04
Speaker 1: and then there's that whole American ethos, which is great,
17:07
Speaker 1: which is about me getting ahead and how I can
17:11
Speaker 1: develop and all of that. But but when I believe
17:16
Speaker 1: that when you take away that whole tribe, that connection,
17:22
Speaker 1: that then there becomes this vacuum that currently in the
17:27
Speaker 1: United States I see being filled back to the true
17:29
Speaker 1: sides of politics and how it is just becoming. And
17:35
Speaker 1: we won't get into a conversation about about what side,
17:37
Speaker 1: but high just divisive the country is becoming because it's
17:43
Speaker 1: now this tribe versus that tribe, right, So I mean,
17:50
Speaker 1: I do think that that that being connected to a
17:55
Speaker 1: bigger tribe. I mean that that's pretty critical, isn't it.
17:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I don't say I think I'll
18:02
Speaker 2: confidently say I know as humans we are fundamentally relational creatures.
18:07
Speaker 2: We cannot resist that. Like our brains as babies don't
18:11
Speaker 2: develop it. I'm like, we don't thrive physically, our bodies
18:15
Speaker 2: don't thrive if we're not in relationship. We need others.
18:18
Speaker 2: Our brains don't function. It's hard to emotionally regulate without
18:22
Speaker 2: being in relationship with others. It's hard to know yourself
18:26
Speaker 2: without relationship with others. So there is this primal need
18:30
Speaker 2: woven into who we are as humans to need otherness
18:34
Speaker 2: and to be a part of something. We're also meaning makers.
18:39
Speaker 2: We need meaning. And I have written a bit in
18:42
Speaker 2: like evolutionary psychology, and I really have come to understand
18:47
Speaker 2: like our brains where they are physiologically from an evolutionary perspective,
18:53
Speaker 2: we're really they're built for defense, for surviving. So we
18:59
Speaker 2: have a lot of fantastic instincts around protection of fear
19:03
Speaker 2: of fight or flight, getting out of the way, and
19:06
Speaker 2: that was fantastic. But now we're in a world where
19:09
Speaker 2: we're not under physical threat all the time, but we
19:13
Speaker 2: have this brain his program for threat. And so one
19:16
Speaker 2: of the ways we need to not genetically adapt, but
19:20
Speaker 2: cognitively adapt is to make meaning because when we have
19:23
Speaker 2: a sense of meaning, we can make decisions that are cohesive, coherent,
19:28
Speaker 2: and create a meaningful life. But we need a belief
19:31
Speaker 2: system and we need a tribe to do that effectively.
19:34
Speaker 2: And so I do think with people fleeing these traditional
19:38
Speaker 2: sources of meaning like religion or even like in the US,
19:41
Speaker 2: there's such a breakdown of like civic communities like the YMCA,
19:45
Speaker 2: there's lots y yeah boy Scouts or girl Scouts. It's
19:48
Speaker 2: like nobody's got a system to be a part of
19:51
Speaker 2: that helps guide them. So rise to political parties and
19:56
Speaker 2: people need to affiliate. And I think that by default
20:00
Speaker 2: people are finding more of a sense of meaning in
20:03
Speaker 2: fervor and identity in politics.
20:07
Speaker 1: And also as well, I think it more lately is
20:11
Speaker 1: in tribes on the internet, on Instagram, on TikTok, which
20:17
Speaker 1: can become super, super toxic. That that's see, this is
20:23
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I kind of moved away
20:28
Speaker 1: personally from religion. I mean, I read when I started
20:31
Speaker 1: questioning things, I remember reading a lot about different had
20:35
Speaker 1: a book on all these different religions, right, and I
20:38
Speaker 1: was fascinated by quite a lot of them, and then
20:42
Speaker 1: started then along your lines of that we need this
20:46
Speaker 1: sense of meaning, we need to be connected to something
20:49
Speaker 1: that's bigger than itself. Do you know my kind of
20:52
Speaker 1: a deep and dislike or one of the criticisms that
20:58
Speaker 1: I have of or organized religion is from the car
21:03
Speaker 1: Marxist perspective the opiate of the masses, and I actually
21:08
Speaker 1: think that it just makes people lazy when it comes
21:12
Speaker 1: to this whole tell us idea, that it's just like, hey,
21:15
Speaker 1: you don't need to think about this ship. Here you go, bomp,
21:17
Speaker 1: there's there's your whole set of thinking and believing and
21:21
Speaker 1: all of that sort of stuff. What would you what
21:22
Speaker 1: would you say about that?
21:24
Speaker 2: So I think that's a great point. And so we've
21:30
Speaker 2: been talking about functional spirituality. Functional religion does not hand
21:35
Speaker 2: out cookie cutter talloi and say you all need to
21:39
Speaker 2: be like this, like.
21:41
Speaker 1: But I love But so many of them do or
21:43
Speaker 1: have done historically right and that's.
21:45
Speaker 2: Why you're leaving them. But right places where religion is
21:49
Speaker 2: vital and growing, I think those congregations are excellent at
21:54
Speaker 2: activating the people in their congregations for who they are uniquely,
21:59
Speaker 2: not just like oh, in a uniform way. I mean,
22:02
Speaker 2: like in Christianity, there's in colloutions that's talking about becoming
22:07
Speaker 2: like the perfect image of God in Christ. So we
22:10
Speaker 2: will say, oh, part of our telos is to become
22:12
Speaker 2: more like Jesus, which if you follow his moral life
22:16
Speaker 2: in the way he healed and helped and had compassion,
22:18
Speaker 2: that's not so bad.
22:19
Speaker 1: No, no, great, a great, yeah.
22:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, But this mistake is when conformity means uniformity and
22:25
Speaker 2: everybody has to do this the same way, or it's
22:28
Speaker 2: used to oppress or repress people. So this is how
22:32
Speaker 2: women should do it, yes, you know, this is how
22:35
Speaker 2: the clergy do it and everyone else. So I think
22:38
Speaker 2: a lot. I don't know if you ever read the
22:40
Speaker 2: philosopher Charles Taylor, but he does a really neat kind
22:45
Speaker 2: of historical perspective of like where religion in many ways
22:52
Speaker 2: didn't necessarily adapt well from like the Middle Ages through
22:55
Speaker 2: the Enlightenment and onward, and so like the Catholic Church,
22:59
Speaker 2: which is so old, there were these very rigid forms
23:02
Speaker 2: that were actually I think great for people thriving in
23:05
Speaker 2: the Middle Ages, like because not a lot of people
23:08
Speaker 2: had education, people were sick a lot, and the church
23:12
Speaker 2: did a lot of good things, but the form has
23:14
Speaker 2: it necessarily adapted to keep up with the needs of humankind.
23:19
Speaker 2: And I joke in my Protestant tradition, like you know,
23:22
Speaker 2: probably around the time of the Reformation, like sitting in
23:26
Speaker 2: pews and having order and clean spaces was really healthy
23:29
Speaker 2: and helpful for people. But making people sit in pews
23:34
Speaker 2: in lines right now may may be really important in
23:38
Speaker 2: some ways to come together. And I think like worship
23:42
Speaker 2: and taking time to acknowledge something bigger than yourself is
23:46
Speaker 2: really important because if our lives end with us, if
23:49
Speaker 2: there's nothing bigger, yeah, to acknowledge that's but we need
23:54
Speaker 2: more than just sitting in pews and listen.
23:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. I mean, for Victor Frankel,
24:01
Speaker 1: you know, he talked a lot about purpose and meaning
24:06
Speaker 1: and that I think it was Frankel who said life
24:08
Speaker 1: has no meaning other than what you give it. Right,
24:12
Speaker 1: So for somebody who might be listening here, look after them.
24:15
Speaker 1: When I do workshops, I will ask, you know, who
24:18
Speaker 1: in the audience has a clear sense of meaning and
24:21
Speaker 1: purpose in their life, And Pam, you would be shocked
24:24
Speaker 1: about how few people actually stick their hand up to
24:27
Speaker 1: have that. It is clear, definitely less than ten percent
24:34
Speaker 1: in the all the audience that I've done, and I
24:36
Speaker 1: I sort of guide people around creating a purpose statement,
24:40
Speaker 1: right or a tombstone statement to start them to think
24:44
Speaker 1: about these sorts of things. But what would you say
24:48
Speaker 1: for somebody who is, in my words, waiting for the
24:53
Speaker 1: purpose fairy to come along and give them a big
24:56
Speaker 1: doll of purpose and say here's your partner. What would
24:59
Speaker 1: you say to them? Like, what are some of the
25:01
Speaker 1: some real functional, concrete steps that we can take to
25:05
Speaker 1: bring a bit of meaning and purpose and spirituality into
25:09
Speaker 1: our lives?
25:10
Speaker 2: Super question. So one practical way that I guide people
25:14
Speaker 2: in this is actually a tuning to joy. And so
25:20
Speaker 2: I mean, like in psychology there's such a strong emphasis
25:23
Speaker 2: on embodiment right now, so like again this like there's
25:28
Speaker 2: heart religious traditions of like at the end of the day,
25:32
Speaker 2: take a moment of reflection to like just walk the
25:36
Speaker 2: paces of your day and become mindful and aware of
25:39
Speaker 2: where you felt light, joy, love, when you felt fully alive,
25:45
Speaker 2: and just become mindful and start recognizing that. And then
25:48
Speaker 2: conversely where moments you maybe felt regret or thwarted or
25:53
Speaker 2: stock or like you wrong someone or just felt bad,
25:57
Speaker 2: and honestly, the practice over time of doing that starts
26:01
Speaker 2: to accumulate and you become aware of like, oh, when
26:04
Speaker 2: I'm with this person or with these kind of people,
26:09
Speaker 2: or when I do this activity, I'm feeling more animated
26:14
Speaker 2: than typical. And so when I have quite a thick
26:19
Speaker 2: understanding of joy that I think centers on three pillars
26:23
Speaker 2: of like when you experience things about yourself like so
26:27
Speaker 2: your your gifts, or like loves like for me, I'm
26:31
Speaker 2: gonna love this conversation at the end of the day.
26:32
Speaker 2: I love talking to people about things that matter and
26:35
Speaker 2: things that light me up. And that's I'm a nerd.
26:37
Speaker 2: My nieces call me a nerd with lip closs, so
26:41
Speaker 2: you know that's me. I do a lot of research,
26:48
Speaker 2: I read a lot of books, you know, like and
26:49
Speaker 2: I put on lip gloss and like to talk about it.
26:52
Speaker 2: So but so, yeah, what are the things that are
26:55
Speaker 2: unique to us, whether it's like I like, you know, movement,
26:59
Speaker 2: or what other you like? And then who are the people,
27:03
Speaker 2: Like relationships as we talked about, matter, So who are
27:06
Speaker 2: the people that bring you life, that support you? But
27:09
Speaker 2: also who are the people you give to Because if
27:13
Speaker 2: your life is just about who gives to you dead
27:15
Speaker 2: end Street? So yeah, yeah, yeah, you know is it?
27:19
Speaker 2: I mean some people love, you know, animals, caring for animals,
27:23
Speaker 2: or some people love caring for leaders and get great
27:27
Speaker 2: joy out of empowering people in certain categories or working
27:31
Speaker 2: with athletes. And then the third pillar is really more
27:35
Speaker 2: around those like moral values, like start noticing the values
27:41
Speaker 2: that give meaning to your life. And that can be
27:44
Speaker 2: like kind of virtues like compassion, generosity, perseverance, or it
27:50
Speaker 2: could be values like I value my family or I
27:55
Speaker 2: value novelty or learning. So like what are those core
28:00
Speaker 2: things that really bring value to your life? And it's
28:03
Speaker 2: a life's work and they change slightly, but after a
28:06
Speaker 2: while you start to get really clear on like your
28:09
Speaker 2: gifts and skills and passions, the people and these values
28:13
Speaker 2: and sometimes I talk about them. Is your your goals,
28:17
Speaker 2: like your personal goals that you're really excited about, your roles,
28:21
Speaker 2: the people in your life, and kind of your your soul,
28:23
Speaker 2: like what are those things that feed that deep part
28:26
Speaker 2: of yourself and getting clear on joy where it brings
28:29
Speaker 2: you joy can help point to what are the sources
28:33
Speaker 2: of meaning in life?
28:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cool, there is there's so much Socrates, Aristotle
28:40
Speaker 1: and Stoicism in this, that, and the ancient Greek philosophy
28:45
Speaker 1: in all of the stuff that you're saying, and that
28:47
Speaker 1: that whole flourishing the good life, virtues aarity, all of
28:51
Speaker 1: this I kind of like to package to guide people
28:58
Speaker 1: the words of Synec a nice a bit of a
29:00
Speaker 1: free as of Seneca. Right, But every individual burst of
29:03
Speaker 1: responsibility to be of value to humanity if possible to
29:07
Speaker 1: benefit a large number, if not a smaller group, and
29:10
Speaker 1: if that too seems unattainable, then to benefit their immediate community.
29:15
Speaker 1: Now it goes on to say, but above all else,
29:17
Speaker 1: they must prioritize self growth and personal well being. And
29:21
Speaker 1: the whole idea that is, if you're going to be
29:24
Speaker 1: a good, effective human and have a positive impact in
29:28
Speaker 1: your little corner of the universe, you will be much
29:31
Speaker 1: more effective if you look after yourself, right, Right, So
29:35
Speaker 1: I kind of like that as a starter for ten
29:39
Speaker 1: for people, and and also in workships nudge them to
29:42
Speaker 1: get clear on their values that their character strengths. The
29:48
Speaker 1: whole idea that the Stoics talked about you you dame
29:51
Speaker 1: on your best inner spirit, right, And so it's you know,
29:56
Speaker 1: it's very very aligned. But then to take that because
30:03
Speaker 1: I think that is really really useful. Having that sense
30:06
Speaker 1: of purpose in life and moral character, virtue, ethics, all
30:12
Speaker 1: of that really helps whenever we get into hardship. So
30:19
Speaker 1: let's talk about hardship and let's talk about Yeah exactly,
30:25
Speaker 1: but having that sense of meaning and purpose in life
30:31
Speaker 1: can can really help you with hardship, whether and again,
30:34
Speaker 1: whether it's religion or whether it's spirituality. Like I mean,
30:38
Speaker 1: I have seen relatives of mine get through really tough
30:42
Speaker 1: times because of their relationship with God. Right, so talk
30:46
Speaker 1: us through that.
30:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, not that we know each other well,
30:52
Speaker 2: but I think we're both probably pretty optimistic. People have strengths.
30:56
Speaker 2: You know how to rally strengths. But guess what, being
31:00
Speaker 2: human is hard. No matter who you are, none of
31:05
Speaker 2: us are immune to hardship, whether we were born with
31:09
Speaker 2: individual factors that might make life a little harder for us,
31:12
Speaker 2: whether it's a physical or a psychological difference. Adversity happens,
31:20
Speaker 2: shit happens, life.
31:21
Speaker 1: Happens, and shit. I like to talk about shit sandwiches
31:24
Speaker 1: from the universe. We're all going to get them death
31:27
Speaker 1: taxes and shit sandwiches from the universe.
31:30
Speaker 2: I've not heard shit sandwiches, but I like that. But yeah,
31:32
Speaker 2: there's chatastrophes everywhere, right, it just happens. So and yeah, sorry,
31:40
Speaker 2: I just had a reflection, like my kids. I have
31:42
Speaker 2: three kids hit COVID at pretty sensitive times like middle
31:46
Speaker 2: school and high school, and they learned early, Like, yeah,
31:50
Speaker 2: shit does happen, and part of me can celebrate that,
31:53
Speaker 2: Oh you're learning heartiness early. And also I'm sad that
31:58
Speaker 2: you didn't get high school prom or get to go
32:00
Speaker 2: through a lot of these things. But yeah, so life
32:02
Speaker 2: is hard and humans are so resilient, and I really
32:08
Speaker 2: think like this brain and I've written on this, like
32:11
Speaker 2: it's adaptive, like we can make meaning, we can grow
32:17
Speaker 2: through hardship, and our brain can physically grow at all
32:20
Speaker 2: stages of our life, though easier when younger. So I
32:26
Speaker 2: talked about joy, like understanding how to make meaning. I
32:29
Speaker 2: want to say also when we're reflecting or contemplating or
32:33
Speaker 2: feeling joy, we need to also be aware of when
32:36
Speaker 2: we're not feeling joy, when we're feeling hardship, suffering, sorrow,
32:42
Speaker 2: and those low points are also huge indicators of what
32:46
Speaker 2: matters in life. Yeah, and so that's a great discernment
32:50
Speaker 2: tool still to be just aware of the daily hardships.
32:54
Speaker 2: But then there's the really big hardships. And I don't
33:00
Speaker 2: like to romanticize our gloss over how hard life can be,
33:04
Speaker 2: but I do know through time and healing, like there
33:08
Speaker 2: are silver linings and there are strengths. We can take
33:11
Speaker 2: over of them. But one of my dear friends and
33:15
Speaker 2: colleagues is a trauma specialist, and she talks about the
33:19
Speaker 2: three rs of resilience, and I'm sorry, the five hours
33:24
Speaker 2: of resilience, and they're really helpful. So the first is
33:26
Speaker 2: like in a hard moment and I being in Pasadena,
33:30
Speaker 2: Like we just went through those LA fires in the
33:33
Speaker 2: last year, so lots of literal hardship in my neighborhood.
33:38
Speaker 2: And just to regulate, so to attune like body scans,
33:43
Speaker 2: be attuned to how my body feels, whether it's stress
33:46
Speaker 2: in my back or a clenched stomach or a wonky
33:50
Speaker 2: shoulder or whatever. You know that And what is that
33:52
Speaker 2: saying about life right now? Like just to become mindful
33:56
Speaker 2: of what our body is communicating to us, regulating our emotions,
34:00
Speaker 2: how are our feelings. We've had a stressful family experience
34:05
Speaker 2: lately and I was less patient with the rest of
34:09
Speaker 2: my family than normal, and I just had to ask
34:11
Speaker 2: for forgiveness and grace. Like there's a lot of pressure
34:13
Speaker 2: going on, So like I'm sure, but to be aware
34:16
Speaker 2: that I'm less regulated than normal, and that means I
34:20
Speaker 2: need a little extra downtime. In my case, that means
34:24
Speaker 2: I can't skip running because I regulate through working out.
34:27
Speaker 2: Often we need to know like what are those places
34:31
Speaker 2: that can bring us home to ourselves and comes down,
34:34
Speaker 2: So we regulate. We also need to like reflect and
34:37
Speaker 2: have right thinking. And often when people are under hardships,
34:42
Speaker 2: we have this tendency to like catastrophize be right, so
34:47
Speaker 2: like we need to like calm it down and be like, wait,
34:50
Speaker 2: is this really the end of the world? Is this
34:53
Speaker 2: really like whether you know you might have lost a
34:58
Speaker 2: job opportunity which you know in the age of AI
35:01
Speaker 2: feels more threatening than it maybe did a decade ago,
35:04
Speaker 2: because well, I find another job. So how do we
35:09
Speaker 2: really get oriented to like the present moment not go
35:12
Speaker 2: way off into the future and have that kind of
35:16
Speaker 2: right thinking. So we've regulated our bodies, our motions, and
35:19
Speaker 2: then we got to like get the mind and check
35:22
Speaker 2: and we need relationships. You don't go through hardships alone.
35:28
Speaker 2: You need to be with people who love you and
35:31
Speaker 2: know you, who can bring you dinner, who can drive
35:33
Speaker 2: you somewhere, who can make sure you got out of bed.
35:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, can give you a cuddle.
35:39
Speaker 2: Give you a cuddle. How you need to be loved
35:43
Speaker 2: and cared for so important and.
35:45
Speaker 1: Sometimes give you a kick up of the RS too.
35:48
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. One of my friends says, who's a psychologist,
35:53
Speaker 2: the colleague friend? You always need one blunt friend like
36:01
Speaker 2: that idea or or get out of bed. Yeah, And
36:05
Speaker 2: when you're going through extreme hardship, I think this is
36:08
Speaker 2: really important, and this is very counter us. You need
36:12
Speaker 2: rest and rest it you need your body to not
36:16
Speaker 2: feel always on, You need to feel safe, and you
36:20
Speaker 2: need to take a break. And I know, like one
36:23
Speaker 2: of my copes when things get hard, I get hard,
36:25
Speaker 2: get working harder, and that's that. That can work well
36:29
Speaker 2: for a while, but that leads to burnout and not
36:33
Speaker 2: attuning to yourself. So like, we just need rest and
36:37
Speaker 2: that can be counterintuitive. And then last oh go ahead.
36:42
Speaker 1: No no, I was just about to say we because
36:45
Speaker 1: when we are in that situation, our nervous system is
36:49
Speaker 1: completely heightened, right, and it just changes your physiology completely,
36:55
Speaker 1: and and the sometimes we just do need to calm
36:59
Speaker 1: the farm, all right.
37:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, or as some of my friends say, calm the
37:03
Speaker 2: fuck down.
37:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, said the minister.
37:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, said reverend occasionally. But no, like it's just a
37:15
Speaker 2: really practical example. When I started doing yoga, I came
37:20
Speaker 2: I was doing yoga to gym, so I came from
37:21
Speaker 2: like workout mentality. I'm not like a yogi Yeah, I'm
37:25
Speaker 2: not very zen. Zen's not my em generally, but I
37:28
Speaker 2: would like love to cut out a class for that
37:30
Speaker 2: savasana when you're supposed to lie dead in corpse post
37:33
Speaker 2: at the end, like oh no, I can you know,
37:34
Speaker 2: go run for fifteen more minutes or something. And I
37:37
Speaker 2: know I'm exaggerating my neuroticisms for effect, but but I've
37:42
Speaker 2: come to realize, like, no, that's chavasana. That just physically
37:46
Speaker 2: being still, whether it's thirty seconds a minute or five minutes,
37:52
Speaker 2: just giving your nervous system a break of like relaxing
37:55
Speaker 2: all your muscles. Is I need that physiological reset for
38:01
Speaker 2: the psychological reset.
38:03
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:03
Speaker 2: And so when we've come through trauma, like I mean,
38:07
Speaker 2: the fire was so real and terrifying, and everyone was
38:10
Speaker 2: like on edge for so long. I mean, so we
38:13
Speaker 2: had windstorms like a few weeks ago, and everyone's like,
38:16
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, are the fire is going to come back?
38:20
Speaker 2: But how do you give your body a break so
38:22
Speaker 2: you can give your mind your anxiety a break? Is
38:25
Speaker 2: really important?
38:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is where I think things like
38:29
Speaker 1: breath work are hugely, hugely important. I think that probably
38:35
Speaker 1: that prayer does similar things. I think prayer is a
38:38
Speaker 1: meditative state, So I would put prayer in the same
38:41
Speaker 1: bracket as meditation and breath work because you know, sometimes
38:46
Speaker 1: you need to go through the body to get to
38:48
Speaker 1: the mind, right through the nervous system. And I think
38:53
Speaker 1: there was one more. There was regular reflect relationships, rest,
38:56
Speaker 1: and respite.
38:58
Speaker 2: And the last one is reason. And this is not
39:01
Speaker 2: cognitive reason, but this is like looking for the reason,
39:04
Speaker 2: the purpose, or the meaning behind it. And often we
39:07
Speaker 2: find in hardships not the first day, yeah yeah, but
39:12
Speaker 2: you know, meaning unfolds. And I think when we really
39:16
Speaker 2: attune to things why they're hard, whether it's a disability
39:21
Speaker 2: you have or a disease you have contracted or something
39:26
Speaker 2: that's occurred to you, that when we attune to that
39:29
Speaker 2: we learn a lot about ourselves and we eventually are
39:34
Speaker 2: able to make meaning from that, and that's really important
39:37
Speaker 2: to understand how it works into our sense of purpose
39:41
Speaker 2: and sometimes go ahead.
39:43
Speaker 1: Now, I was going to say, I think something that
39:46
Speaker 1: plays in here is something you mentioned earlier on which
39:48
Speaker 1: I wrote down because I'm a big fan of it,
39:50
Speaker 1: which is silver linings. Because particularly when you're in the
39:54
Speaker 1: in the ship or something like really traumatic is happening,
39:58
Speaker 1: death of a loved one, those sorts of things, you know,
40:00
Speaker 1: it can be really hard for people to find meaning
40:04
Speaker 1: in that, right, And I think that the whole silver
40:10
Speaker 1: linings thing. So I know Professor Richard, or sorry, Professor
40:15
Speaker 1: James Gross, he has done a lot of work on
40:19
Speaker 1: silver linings and the difference between acceptance and reappraisal. So acceptances,
40:26
Speaker 1: you will know, is pretty important in psychology, just to
40:29
Speaker 1: accept that you've had a shit sandwich that you know,
40:32
Speaker 1: by the way, it's not your universe, it's not oriented
40:34
Speaker 1: around you. But while acceptance can be very useful, that
40:40
Speaker 1: reappear a praisal that actually looking back on that bad
40:43
Speaker 1: event and going, yes, that was shit, but what was
40:47
Speaker 1: the silver lining that came from it? Right? And if
40:49
Speaker 1: we take something extreme like the death of a loved one,
40:52
Speaker 1: often you will hear people say, well, you know, I
40:56
Speaker 1: was having a ongoing battle or war with one of
41:00
Speaker 1: my siblings and we realized because when my parents died,
41:03
Speaker 1: life too short and we made it up. Or I
41:07
Speaker 1: leaned into somebody and developed a deeper relationship, or I
41:12
Speaker 1: realized myself that life is short, too short, and that's
41:16
Speaker 1: stuff that I always wanted to do but didn't think
41:18
Speaker 1: I deserved. I went and did it right. And I
41:22
Speaker 1: think James Gours has also shown that you can, and
41:25
Speaker 1: I find this very helpful, is that when you're in
41:28
Speaker 1: the shit storm, you can actually have a bit of
41:31
Speaker 1: metacognition and sit back and observe the situation and there
41:34
Speaker 1: and go what might the silver lining be from this
41:38
Speaker 1: situation six months or twelve months down the track. It's
41:42
Speaker 1: kind of just it's just looking at it from a
41:44
Speaker 1: different perspective, isn't.
41:46
Speaker 2: It one perred percent? And when it isn't clear, because
41:52
Speaker 2: it's not clear immediately to have to when you sit back,
41:57
Speaker 2: I kind of thought of a snow globe like sometimes
41:59
Speaker 2: there is is some waiting and letting to settle for
42:03
Speaker 2: the clarity to come, but to have hope, the clarity
42:06
Speaker 2: will come like not to despair. But and then this
42:09
Speaker 2: other thing in reason or purpose is like if this
42:12
Speaker 2: is where if you have a sense of purpose, when
42:16
Speaker 2: tragedy strikes, you still have that purpose that that might
42:21
Speaker 2: have derailed you from it, but you can go back
42:25
Speaker 2: to it and you're going to come at it from
42:27
Speaker 2: a deeper, newer angle. So like I'm thinking of like
42:32
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know of a worse strategy tragedy.
42:35
Speaker 2: Neighbors of ours their kid, in celebrating college graduation got
42:42
Speaker 2: some fentanyl unexpectedly and and died just right after college graduation.
42:50
Speaker 2: How this family rebounded like is beyond me. They are
42:54
Speaker 2: actually a very devout Catholic family ironically, but they overtime
43:01
Speaker 2: have like loving their kid, loving kids. They have adapted
43:06
Speaker 2: that purpose and they've started a foundation around Sentanel awareness
43:11
Speaker 2: and are quite impactful in the Los Angeles area. And
43:15
Speaker 2: so you know that's super dramatic. Like for me, a
43:19
Speaker 2: moment purpose helped Like in COVID, since I brought it up,
43:22
Speaker 2: I had written most of a manuscript on a book
43:26
Speaker 2: on joy. Suddenly I found myself found myself at home
43:30
Speaker 2: with three younger kids, a large dog, and a husband,
43:33
Speaker 2: and I was like, there's no way I'm going to
43:34
Speaker 2: write a.
43:35
Speaker 1: Book a joyless environment.
43:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's just too disruptive. So I started blogging,
43:42
Speaker 2: which became really fun for me, which turned into a podcast.
43:46
Speaker 2: But like I was like, okay, my purpose is to
43:48
Speaker 2: help people thrive. I thought I was going to write
43:50
Speaker 2: this book, but how else can I get this information
43:53
Speaker 2: out there? So I, you know, took that hardship and
43:56
Speaker 2: somewhat repurposed it around what my sense of Teloso purpose was.
44:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, very cool, and what I think is also helpful here,
44:07
Speaker 1: particularly when the ship hits the fan, right, is the
44:10
Speaker 1: again coming back to the ancient Greeks and their whole
44:14
Speaker 1: concept of arity or character, and that all you need
44:18
Speaker 1: for the good life is arity and to do well
44:22
Speaker 1: and be well or be your best self when you
44:24
Speaker 1: possibly can. But but the Greeks also they had an
44:27
Speaker 1: interesting take on this. They said that when you are
44:30
Speaker 1: fasts with with huge challenges, things like disasters, they just
44:34
Speaker 1: become an opportunity to practice a virtue or to shop
44:37
Speaker 1: in your character. And isn't this why we need to
44:42
Speaker 1: get clear on our virtues and our values, Because because
44:47
Speaker 1: they become your your guiding star, right, that's the key thing.
44:52
Speaker 2: Yes, And I love that you said this because in
44:55
Speaker 2: my thrive acronym it's ethics and virtues as well.
44:59
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I am.
45:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone in like pr in my life for marketing
45:03
Speaker 2: is like, why do you need virtues? You know, like
45:05
Speaker 2: I get you need ethics or moral something, But I'm
45:08
Speaker 2: like no, because virtues are the habits that we can
45:12
Speaker 2: cultivate and practice and it enables that aspect of our
45:16
Speaker 2: moral life to become automatic. But yes, when the shit
45:20
Speaker 2: sandwich happens, they can become that I'm trying to think
45:24
Speaker 2: of a food metaphor and I can't, you know, but
45:26
Speaker 2: they can become guarding guiding stars. So if you're not
45:29
Speaker 2: a theistic person and you don't have some sense of
45:33
Speaker 2: God out there, you could be like no, But I
45:36
Speaker 2: know compassion, I know hope. I know these things are
45:42
Speaker 2: part of the good life and they will help me flourish.
45:46
Speaker 2: So how can I stay generous? How can I have temperance?
45:51
Speaker 2: How can I practice fidelity in this moment? Like what
45:55
Speaker 2: does temperance look like now that the sand, like the
45:58
Speaker 2: ground under me is shifted?
46:00
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, one hundred percent and what we haven't what
46:03
Speaker 1: we haven't discussed, And I'm sure it's in your locker,
46:07
Speaker 1: is is gratitude and the role of of gratitude in
46:13
Speaker 1: all of this, because I'm you know, I've done a
46:16
Speaker 1: gratitude richel for thirty years since I saw a guy,
46:19
Speaker 1: a beggar in India with leprosy and elephantiitis, right and
46:24
Speaker 1: and and that I think this guy, that guy gave
46:26
Speaker 1: me the greatest gift, the gift of gratitude. But lately,
46:30
Speaker 1: at my at why my wife's nudging, I started combining
46:34
Speaker 1: gratitude with awe and and I think, you know, sometimes
46:39
Speaker 1: I'll just turn the tap on and go, how fucking
46:42
Speaker 1: awesome is running water? Right? Right? Yeah? And you know
46:47
Speaker 1: I'll sit out in my balcony at night and just
46:49
Speaker 1: look at the stars and go, fucking how awesome is that?
46:53
Speaker 1: And think of the vastness and the fact that you know,
46:57
Speaker 1: scientists estimate we've got a one in three hundred trillion
47:01
Speaker 1: chances of ever having been born. Like, when you start
47:05
Speaker 1: to mix those things, it's hard not to be just
47:10
Speaker 1: extremely grateful every single day, right, Yeah, I'm sure you've
47:16
Speaker 1: dug into the role of gratitude what's your take on it?
47:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I've got questions for you. So I'll say so,
47:23
Speaker 2: there's a really wonderful psychologist at the University of North
47:27
Speaker 2: Carolina named Barbara Fredrickson who's senior pioneer in like positive psychology.
47:34
Speaker 2: But she's done so much great science on the impact
47:37
Speaker 2: of positive emotions, like in gratitude and how they literally
47:42
Speaker 2: like help relax our brain. So, like, if you're feeling
47:45
Speaker 2: anxious or like stock like, go channel, go find some awe,
47:49
Speaker 2: look at something gorgeous, conjure up the gifts of your
47:54
Speaker 2: life and be mindful of the gratitude. Go write a letter,
47:59
Speaker 2: call someone, text someone, you say thank you, because those
48:04
Speaker 2: hits of positive emotions just do glorious things for our
48:08
Speaker 2: brains and help us move forward. I've actually I did.
48:12
Speaker 2: I had a large grant on cosmic gratitude. So this
48:17
Speaker 2: is the one when I ask you a question, So,
48:19
Speaker 2: who do people think for things that are not attributed
48:24
Speaker 2: to humans, like the glorious stars above you? So we
48:29
Speaker 2: understand in gratitude there's a few cognitive appraisals. There's the
48:34
Speaker 2: acknowledging the gift that you're receiving, the glorious stars and
48:38
Speaker 2: then there's the appraisal of the giver. And so when
48:41
Speaker 2: you have things like the gift of life or stars
48:44
Speaker 2: like who people gives. So gratitude is so powerful because
48:48
Speaker 2: you get two hits. You not only get the positive
48:51
Speaker 2: hit for the gift, you get the positive gift of
48:53
Speaker 2: connection to the giver. So this is great at Christmas,
48:56
Speaker 2: you know, like thank your spouse, your partner, your friends
48:58
Speaker 2: for the gift. So when you're outside looking at the starters,
49:02
Speaker 2: who are you thinking? What?
49:04
Speaker 1: See? This is the thing. And this is why I
49:07
Speaker 1: don't like religion right because for me it's the religion
49:14
Speaker 1: just kills the curiosity, you know. For for me, it's
49:18
Speaker 1: it's that whole Wow, how the fuck does this ship happen?
49:24
Speaker 1: How did it come to be? Right? And and and
49:27
Speaker 1: and you know this is why. And I don't want
49:29
Speaker 1: to offend anybody, but but I think that this idea
49:31
Speaker 1: of this, this sentiment being who created all of this?
49:35
Speaker 1: I'm just like, nah, it's so fucking complex, Like even
49:39
Speaker 1: when you look at the body and you go down
49:42
Speaker 1: into the deep biochemistry, like if I was this old,
49:45
Speaker 1: I just make it happen. Why would you make it
49:47
Speaker 1: so freaking complex? So so for me, that that that unknown,
49:52
Speaker 1: that that that going into the curiosity, starting to yeah,
49:57
Speaker 1: the mystery, and then starting to develop your own thinking.
50:02
Speaker 1: So for me, for me, it's all about energy and
50:05
Speaker 1: it's into sub atomic stuff. So what took me away
50:08
Speaker 1: from religion was quantit physics and then reading by feature
50:13
Speaker 1: of Kappra the doll of the physics and how that
50:17
Speaker 1: really went into the ancient Chinese philosophy the stoics, very
50:21
Speaker 1: very similar, and thinking around that, and then what really
50:26
Speaker 1: concreted it was an ecstatic experience on ayahuasca in the
50:31
Speaker 1: Amazon jungle where I saw atoms and I saw the
50:36
Speaker 1: connection between everything. So for me, that's it. For me
50:40
Speaker 1: is it's about energy and the fabric and how we're
50:44
Speaker 1: not having an energetic interaction and that we're all just
50:49
Speaker 1: little balls of energy in this whole universe of little
50:52
Speaker 1: balls of energy that just bounce off each other and
50:55
Speaker 1: exchange energy. So my whole thing is, well, why wouldn't
50:58
Speaker 1: you be a positive influence in the web of energy? Right?
51:03
Speaker 2: Yeah? And my offering I was gonna say pushback, but offering.
51:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I like that.
51:08
Speaker 2: So functional religion might provide beliefs around that wonder and
51:14
Speaker 2: that mystery of like if you're gonna go with theistic language,
51:18
Speaker 2: like what kind of God would create something with such
51:25
Speaker 2: complexity and awe and wonder and invite us into that
51:29
Speaker 2: and be a part of it and give us intelligence
51:32
Speaker 2: to try and understand it and participate in that energy.
51:38
Speaker 1: See this is where this is where, this is where
51:40
Speaker 1: smart theologists piss me off, right, because they've always kind
51:44
Speaker 1: of question no, but I like, I'm joking, I'm joking, no, No,
51:49
Speaker 1: but you.
51:50
Speaker 2: Know, I think I think religion. I mean, this is
51:53
Speaker 2: like a little epiphany for me in my critique of
51:56
Speaker 2: like unhealthy forms of religion, the posture was giving answers.
52:03
Speaker 2: We're in a world today where like, no, we need
52:07
Speaker 2: good questions. Yeah, and that's what I think, like functional spirituality,
52:13
Speaker 2: functional religion invites us into asking those questions. It's not
52:19
Speaker 2: afraid of I don't know, or of not clean answers,
52:23
Speaker 2: and invites us into those questions, into the universe deeper
52:26
Speaker 2: into the depths of the atoms of the soil or
52:29
Speaker 2: the cosmos, and into relationship with one another and into
52:34
Speaker 2: the hardship like life is complicated and the notion of
52:42
Speaker 2: not being alone, whether it's God or like, no, I
52:45
Speaker 2: have a tribe or I have people who are going
52:48
Speaker 2: to go with me through whether it's my depression or
52:51
Speaker 2: my anxious or whatever moments that to be known. Like,
52:56
Speaker 2: I just think the the intricacies of life and our
53:00
Speaker 2: universe to me are fascinating. But more of I think
53:03
Speaker 2: we both see them as invitations.
53:04
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, look one hundred percent and and and I
53:07
Speaker 1: get the For me, the biggest strength of religion is
53:12
Speaker 1: is the tribe and that that that hold togetherness and
53:17
Speaker 1: just the the the giving people who either haven't done
53:22
Speaker 1: the work or don't know how to do the work,
53:25
Speaker 1: are too lazy to do the work, to give them
53:27
Speaker 1: a set of values and virtues a guide to live
53:29
Speaker 1: back because as you said, you know, if you live
53:31
Speaker 1: like Jesus or any of the other whether it's Bud
53:35
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you generally are a good
53:40
Speaker 1: human being, right, And and I think that's the key
53:43
Speaker 1: thing that whether it's religion, virtues, ethics, it's all guiding
53:48
Speaker 1: us to be a good human My we we do
53:52
Speaker 1: have to wrap this up. But my question to you,
53:55
Speaker 1: just coming back to the developmental psychology, where does this start?
54:02
Speaker 1: Where are we starting to go wrong? And in today's world,
54:05
Speaker 1: where are the waves starting to come off?
54:09
Speaker 2: So this is such a and we could have a
54:11
Speaker 2: whole other episode on this. I'll bow it down to
54:15
Speaker 2: something love. We need love. Like I know I sound
54:19
Speaker 2: like the Beatles or something silly, but from the I
54:23
Speaker 2: don't sing either, so I won't bring into something I
54:25
Speaker 2: don't worry, but no, like I mean just honestly, like infants,
54:29
Speaker 2: babies need love, like for their brains to develop. To
54:32
Speaker 2: Eric Erkson, one of the goats, the greatest of all time,
54:36
Speaker 2: developmental original psychologists, talked about humans first developmental goal is
54:42
Speaker 2: like to establish trust, to experience the world as a
54:45
Speaker 2: trusting place. And that doesn't stop at infancy. We carry
54:48
Speaker 2: that through our whole life. I mean, that's like why
54:51
Speaker 2: trauma and things that violate our sense of existential physical
54:55
Speaker 2: safety and trust are so so detrimental to us. But yeah,
55:00
Speaker 2: we need love. And like, so how you know where
55:04
Speaker 2: whoever I'm speaking to in religion, outside of religion, students,
55:08
Speaker 2: people in a workplace, Like how do you find love
55:11
Speaker 2: in your life? Like, whether it's in your friendships, in.
55:15
Speaker 1: Your I was about to say, it doesn't have to
55:17
Speaker 1: be You're not just referring to romantic life.
55:19
Speaker 2: I'm not just referring to romantic love and that's so
55:21
Speaker 2: complicated that that's not always a source of love, but
55:25
Speaker 2: it would be lovely and wonderful if people get it there.
55:30
Speaker 2: But like, yeah, loving our parents are being loved by
55:32
Speaker 2: our parents. And we can spend a lot of time
55:35
Speaker 2: in therapy talking about how you weren't loved well, well, yeah, okay,
55:38
Speaker 2: go back to your exceptions thing, like let's work through
55:41
Speaker 2: that and say, okay, this being so, how am I
55:43
Speaker 2: now going to go a get love and be give
55:47
Speaker 2: love to others? Because we always receive love when we
55:51
Speaker 2: give love. And I didn't say it and should have.
55:54
Speaker 2: We need to love ourselves and that's honestly one of
55:56
Speaker 2: our biggest obstacles. But it's hard to know how to
56:00
Speaker 2: love yourself if you weren't loved well when you're young.
56:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is where I think all the psychologists
56:06
Speaker 1: will be nodding frantically. And because you know that those
56:11
Speaker 1: adverse childhood experiences, you know they shape your brain in
56:15
Speaker 1: fundamental ways. And I always say to people, and we
56:18
Speaker 1: are all living a personalized hallucination of reality because you know,
56:24
Speaker 1: our brains are massively shaped by our experience, and it
56:29
Speaker 1: is our brain that perceives reality. So that I think
56:32
Speaker 1: particularly for that those adverse childhood experiences, like they just
56:38
Speaker 1: make life so much freaking harder because of just it
56:43
Speaker 1: changes the interpretation of lots of things for a lot
56:46
Speaker 1: of people. That puts up barriers to the things that
56:49
Speaker 1: they really need as they need right and they don't
56:53
Speaker 1: know why those barriers are there. It's their nervous system
56:57
Speaker 1: just going potential threat.
56:59
Speaker 2: Here exactly, and it's not a threat, but it's perceived
57:02
Speaker 2: and it's so I really invite people to become mindful
57:08
Speaker 2: of patterns in their life, like in relationships, because often
57:12
Speaker 2: people don't even recog like they you know, especially if
57:15
Speaker 2: it's like an adverse early childhood experience, like it's just
57:18
Speaker 2: who they are. It's like who they, how they how
57:21
Speaker 2: we know to be in the world. But start looking
57:23
Speaker 2: at patterns of places where especially relationships because you need
57:26
Speaker 2: love might go wrong, and be open to how you
57:30
Speaker 2: might be a part of that because yes, you know,
57:33
Speaker 2: like and being open and humble and saying like, oh
57:36
Speaker 2: my gosh, I might repetively screw things up though I'm
57:41
Speaker 2: trying so hard to be good, but it's something's getting
57:45
Speaker 2: in the way, like to be open with that and
57:47
Speaker 2: and find a trusted, really wise friend or a therapist
57:52
Speaker 2: that you know can help you think through that. And
57:55
Speaker 2: and honestly, I think those vulnerabilities are excruciatingly beautiful opportunities
58:06
Speaker 2: to be loved and to love others. And so often
58:09
Speaker 2: we want to hide those, you know, like particular things
58:14
Speaker 2: about us that are difficult or might feel crazy at
58:16
Speaker 2: times or but ultimately in those vulnerabilities, that's when we
58:21
Speaker 2: can be known in those and what we can know
58:24
Speaker 2: others out of the depth of the pain or the
58:26
Speaker 2: hurt that we've suffered. Out of those, that's when we're
58:29
Speaker 2: really entering real relationships and when you can really thrive
58:34
Speaker 2: and come alive.
58:35
Speaker 1: That's very cool. Palm. This this has been This has
58:39
Speaker 1: been awesome. I've really thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, the mix
58:44
Speaker 1: of philosophy, spirituality, and religion, but I think has been
58:48
Speaker 1: very helpful for people. Now where can people go to
58:52
Speaker 1: find out more? I know you've got a podcast within
58:55
Speaker 1: four podcasts, and what else? Blog resources? Where where are
59:00
Speaker 1: we saying people if they'd like this conversation, Because if
59:03
Speaker 1: I'm sure you have a shipload of these conversations on
59:06
Speaker 1: your podcast.
59:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I do. And the Thrivecenter dot org is
59:14
Speaker 2: the website of our center. That spiritual health framework is
59:18
Speaker 2: on that framework. On that website there are resources and
59:22
Speaker 2: practices and blogs that synthesize research around that that offer
59:28
Speaker 2: spiritual practices aligned with each facet. The withan for podcasts
59:32
Speaker 2: hosted by doctor Pam King, is a place where I
59:35
Speaker 2: love to have conversations like this. So hope you check
59:39
Speaker 2: that out wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if
59:43
Speaker 2: you're really interested in the research behind it, I have
59:45
Speaker 2: a slew of academic papers also available through the website
59:49
Speaker 2: or if you have insomnia you can read them. But
59:56
Speaker 2: I have a couple of recent ones out on all
59:59
Speaker 2: the research not just mind but other peoples on that
1:00:02
Speaker 2: back up those facets like the importance of transcendence and
1:00:05
Speaker 2: relationships for spiritual health.
1:00:08
Speaker 1: So I love, I absolutely love your Thrive acronym. I'm
1:00:11
Speaker 1: going to go on and explore that a little bit
1:00:13
Speaker 1: misty too, But thank you for this really cool, I
1:00:18
Speaker 1: will say, enlightening conversation and and thank you for doing
1:00:23
Speaker 1: what you do and for being of service for others.
1:00:25
Speaker 1: It is a noble purpose. We carry on on your question.
1:00:30
Speaker 2: Well you do, Paul, thank you for being with and
1:00:33
Speaker 2: for others in all you do. Like what a great
1:00:37
Speaker 2: steward you are of all your knowledge, wisdom and experience
1:00:41
Speaker 2: and impacting people. It was really intrigued by your website
1:00:44
Speaker 2: and all the places that you are showing up for
1:00:46
Speaker 2: people in transformative ways.
1:00:48
Speaker 1: Well, I think I think we have a very similar purpose.
1:00:50
Speaker 1: I call mine a tombstone statement, right, which is military
1:00:54
Speaker 1: man turned educator to help others be better versions of themselves.
1:00:57
Speaker 1: And it's very you kind of let your sneak out
1:01:00
Speaker 1: a little bit. What what would yours be? If I
1:01:02
Speaker 1: was to ask you if you could put it into
1:01:05
Speaker 1: a set of words or sentence or a couple of words.
1:01:08
Speaker 2: M Yes, I would say I'm very similar to yours.
1:01:12
Speaker 2: I would say, using my life and my voice to
1:01:16
Speaker 2: help transform others to thrive.
1:01:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, very cool, and you are certainly doing that, Palm.
1:01:22
Speaker 1: So thanks very much. This had been awesome, Thank.
1:01:25
Speaker 2: You, super fun. Wish I would see you next week
1:01:27
Speaker 2: in Australia.
1:01:28
Speaker 1: Indeed that he'll be up to coast.
1:01:31
Speaker 2: Take good care. Thank you so much, Paul.
1:01:33
Speaker 1: Thank you