Latest / The Other 22 Hours / Medium Build on shadow work, hedges of protection, and fearing your barista.

Transcript

Medium Build on shadow work, hedges of protection, and fearing your barista. · The Other 22 Hours

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm an avoidant person, I'm pretty anti-conflict growing up in that kind of stuff it down household.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't like conflict.
0:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think this job historically was really great because all I had to do was just play music and if people didn't like me they didn't have to come.
0:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But now we're in a world where there's money and there's managers, there's label, there's bandmates, there's unfeeding people, you know, I'm paying people to leave their house for months at a time and join my little circus.
0:35
[SPEAKER_02]: We often define artists by their output, their records, books, movies, and the times they're on stage.
0:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But the art is made in a quiet, the struggle and the mundane, the hours that no one sees.
0:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm McKayla Ann.
0:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Aaron Kray for his.
0:50
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the other 22 hours.
0:52
[SPEAKER_02]: The next exploration of the creative life lived in between.
1:09
[SPEAKER_02]: This week we're featuring our conversation with Nick Carpenter, who is more widely known by his moniker, medium build, who Nick took on his moniker in 2015 after other projects, after trying his hand at the National Music Row, publishing writing room, co-writes, hustle, moving to Alaska where he really got medium build off the ground.
1:30
[SPEAKER_02]: and moving back to Nashville.
1:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody knows that you are some of the community that you keep and some of the community that Nick and Medium built can consider fans are the likes of John Mayer, Sir, Elton, John, Boyd Genius, Zach Bryan.
1:45
[SPEAKER_02]: He has, toward with such a wide variety of people, including role model, Tyler, Chilters, Phineas, Holly Humberstone, it's all over the map.
1:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And if your algorithm is anything like mine, you know that he recently just released a new record that has pulled off the algorithm, trifect of making him seem omnipresent.
2:06
[SPEAKER_02]: But as has become our calling card on the show to the joy of the artists and the sugar in of many publicists, we don't really touch on that new record here.
2:15
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we talk about the things that we love talking about and that we find most artists really love talking about, which is about his heart.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was so generous and we really got to go deep about how to navigate the ups and downs, even sometimes the ups are even harder to navigate than the downs professionally, I would say.
2:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a hilarious and also really beautiful tender conversation with Nick Carpenter,
2:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being here and we like to start every hour the same way with the same question, how are you?
2:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a how are you really and where are you physically and creatively?
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I love when I read this sheet it just seemed like such a lovely conversation that we're gonna have.
3:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for inviting me and then thank you for what I believe is a very
3:14
[SPEAKER_01]: real.
3:14
[SPEAKER_01]: My mom is one of a bunch of Midwestern kids, and they were all good at really stuffing their feelings down.
3:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think as my mom and all our sisters like loosened up throughout life, we'd have these like Thanksgiving's where it's like, all right, go.
3:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to actually be real.
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Say your feelings.
3:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm saying Thanksgiving table right now.
3:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, no, how are you?
3:34
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you, really?
3:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's how I grew up too.
3:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like my aunt well,
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I'm good.
4:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm tired, I'm physically in Los Angeles right now.
4:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm mentally just sort of run out of been an album promo.
4:09
[SPEAKER_01]: The album came out a week ago today.
4:12
[SPEAKER_01]: My band is mostly all live in Nashville, but we did Jimmy Kimmel this week.
4:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So the band's all here.
4:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We're all crashing on the floor at my girlfriend's house.
4:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
4:23
[SPEAKER_01]: just a lot of chaos, a lot of good chaos, you know, but still chaos, right?
4:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like running a marathon is fun and rewarding, but it still requires like shooting your pants and needing to refuel and then you're really tired after.
4:38
[SPEAKER_01]: There's all these beautiful things of finishing a project, but then as soon as you put something out, there's just this spiritual vulnerability that grows in the side of your gut that all of a sudden you're like, oh no, what if someone hurts me now that I've been vulnerable with the world?
4:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And then all the work, so I'm tired and just sort of a little beat up, but I was just making bacon for the voice, so I feel like I'm in a good way.
5:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a good place already.
5:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, usually we say that we like to talk to people in their off-cycle times and we're catching you in the midst of it all.
5:14
[SPEAKER_00]: We hope sometimes it can provide the moment of, don't just talk about like how to promote your record for an hour, but a moment of reprieve for yourself of, wait, how do I pause and reflect on this hamster wheel that I'm currently on,
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: the vulnerability fear and just like you said the chaos next thing next thing next thing next thing and then in my experience the dopamine hits of like oh if things are going well and this is good and attention and go and that almost starts to feel like a sugar high and my younger days I got really high off of it and would crash and now I'm so much quicker to be like this makes me feel tired.
5:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's a drug checking the Instagram, checking the Spotify stream, seeing if people shared it.
6:01
[SPEAKER_01]: All the attention is beautiful, but it's really dangerous.
6:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember why I quit social media before, you know, I just like can't handle the access.
6:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, touching on that.
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like in complete honesty, I've heard some of your songs and I'd love everything that I've heard.
6:19
[SPEAKER_02]: It feels really good.
6:21
[SPEAKER_02]: It hooks me at all.
6:22
[SPEAKER_02]: But I was generally on a aware of you before we set up this conversation.
6:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I produced an artist from Alaska that toured with you a few years ago named Rosie Rush.
6:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was the first time that your name came on my radar.
6:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But all that to say, the speaking of social media and being on there,
6:42
[SPEAKER_02]: and everything that you're doing.
6:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's working.
6:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's working, I have seen you in multiple other conversations in person in a lot of different places, talking about a lot of different things, and I have this opportunity to talk to you in Los Angeles, just having done him all like in the thick of the release sprint.
7:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Now when we release records, it's a sprint because everybody's attention is so short.
7:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you have an effective team, like yours, apparently,
7:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be a lot.
7:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you with yourself?
7:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess is what I want to ask?
7:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like you're with Nick right now?
7:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Or do you feel like you're just lost in medium-built in that machine?
7:23
[SPEAKER_01]: That's such a good question hilarious about the omnipresence.
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: My dad texted me and was like, my feed is just all you.
7:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I don't even really, I'm not even a fan.
7:34
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes, I bet your big fans are just getting so much fun stuff.
7:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in between his.
7:41
[SPEAKER_01]: He's working well.
7:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Beams.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that.
7:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's like Charlie Kirkshitt is being distracted with my album promo.
7:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the best.
7:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my girlfriend yesterday was like medium build is so loud in our life right now and I think that's the Canary in the coal mine, right?
8:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like in my with me.
8:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I have been this week I mean there's been days right like on Sunday I went on the long run Tuesday I went on a really good hike and like I think that's where we're gonna get to talking about the ways that I stay sane But if I'm not outside literally off my phone
8:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm responding to stuff.
8:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm checking the data.
8:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on my way to a podcast, I'm on my way to a record store to play a show.
8:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on my way to a radio station.
8:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm this week has really been that sprint.
8:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm better at being in my body than I ever have been sober and dedicated and a little bit more aware, but it's still such a finesse that I don't think I
8:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I can manage given the option you have to be on your phone.
8:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a feel like a battle I'll be fighting my whole life.
9:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was reading the material that and you were words.
9:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know what it was, but that sac sent me a lot of information and interviews of you talking about your experience last few years and correct me if I'm wrong.
9:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But you've gone through this where you felt the in my words, like the high of things going well
9:20
[SPEAKER_00]: coping with that in unhealthier ways and if you feel comfortable with I'd love to hear about what that's been like and to now be back in it but with different tools and obviously you're at the beginning of it because now you have tour ahead of you and the release date is just the very beginning but what it feels like to look back on how things went for you last record
9:46
[SPEAKER_00]: release time when the career started going well, but the person started struggling and to me here again, but with more tools.
9:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It's scary.
9:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's scary to turn the machine back on when you know that that's the same machine that maybe you got burnt on.
10:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously part of that destruction was me and self-imposed.
10:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to avoid it, person.
10:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty anti-conflict growing up in that kind of stuff it down household.
10:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't like conflict.
10:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think this job historically was really great because all I had to do was just play music and the people that liked me, they didn't have to come.
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: but now we're in a world where there's money and there's managers, there's label, there's bandmates, there's I'm feeding people, you know, I'm paying people to leave their house for months at a time and join my little circus.
10:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And so turning it all back on, I had a beautiful year off.
10:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It was incredible.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, that's my girlfriend.
10:44
[SPEAKER_01]: She said, that was terrible.
10:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It
10:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's just my brain.
10:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think I want to tour this record.
10:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I did put the booze away.
10:57
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no booze on the bus.
10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no booze in the venue.
11:00
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of framework for me to be healthy.
11:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm the most exposed of ever been, right?
11:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm all over Aaron's feet.
11:08
[SPEAKER_01]: He can't stop.
11:09
[SPEAKER_01]: He can't even even if he wanted to be.
11:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And that means there's more room for people to shit on me.
11:16
[SPEAKER_01]: There's more people in the comments being like,
11:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Not for me, bro.
11:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like I do that stuff.
11:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I really should.
11:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I should not read it.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, one of my first ever friends that got famous, her advice to me was don't ever read the comments.
11:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes I don't take that advice.
11:34
[SPEAKER_01]: but I know that I want to do this and so I just need better guards.
11:39
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have to make big hedges of protection.
11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: As my mom would pray for me to pray a blessing of hedge of protection around me every day and I was like, I'm gonna be like, what the f*** is the edge of me protection?
11:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, there I do that.
11:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I need some hedges.
12:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We had a guest on the podcast that I remember they were saying, they were at the beginning of an album release and they were like, I feel so different going into this album release because I feel so much healthier and nothing's going to shake me because I feel so strong and everything and I was like, I love that for you.
12:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I also am so curious to talk to you in a year and not because I think you're going to get knocked down, but because I went through an album cycle where I felt that way at the beginning and the same old
12:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I had thought I had conquered them, because we all have this endless need to be loved and Approved of and even like when things go well, it doesn't actually say she that need it.
12:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Just Expans it.
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a lifelong journey of Okay, maybe this doesn't actually ever go away, but like my ability or capacity to hold it and to work with it and my ability to build my hedges of protection
12:58
[SPEAKER_00]: those are increasing, right?
13:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned sobriety and running, but what are some of those actual hedges of protection that you've actually loved that phrase now?
13:09
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
13:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important, you know, I'm so metaphorical when I speak in it, also a noise the piss out of people sometimes on a call, be like, what does that even mean?
13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But like because I'll talk about bumpers or like any bumpers like when you're in a bowling lane for children, you know?
13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like any horse blinders, but horse blinders imply there's something you don't want to see I don't want to blind myself.
13:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to see the pit.
13:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to see the gutters.
13:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like Maybe there it is more hedges of protection or maybe it's the bumpers for bowling, right?
13:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like you can see the gutter But I know I'm getting blocked by it You're metaphors are important, but yeah
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I love running, being outside, walking the dog, running the dog, going to the disk off course.
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Just walking my neighborhood, I'll put like a weighted backpack on and just walk six miles just to go get a quartato.
14:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Being outside seems to be just one of the only simple fixes it immediately just makes
14:14
[SPEAKER_01]: my heart and my mind calm down one foot in front of the other jogging or walking, literally just to be in a place where I can't be on my phone, right?
14:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So go to the woods and go for runs like you can't scroll, right?
14:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You're busy, you gotta watch.
14:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've definitely walked probably six miles looking down at my foot, so it's impossible to fuck that up, but I
14:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I really would love to be away from it.
14:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes it's even the act of just leaving it at home and going for a long drive, tuning into the radio.
14:48
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, what's on the radio?
14:50
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on in another place of the world?
14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is all physical for me, because I'm superheaddy, and I need to get out of my head.
14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So stretching, walking, running, playing, maybe eating half an edible and sitting at the piano,
15:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But then you want your phones so you can get that genius voice from them, right?
15:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's such a dangerous thing.
15:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, I need the tool in case I'm a genius.
15:18
[SPEAKER_02]: This could be it.
15:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I totally synthesize with that.
15:21
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so much that's useful about your phone.
15:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't say it's quite 50-50, but there are some essential tools that I need in my day that exist only on my phone.
15:29
[SPEAKER_02]: There's this other whole other door that you can open up that it feels like the universe is just screaming at me as soon as I open that door.
15:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I don't need that closet, but this room over here is super helpful.
15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the only thing that's helped me because I also feel like I can never leave my phone because we have two young children is the brick.
15:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You know about the brick?
15:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not sponsored.
15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the brick needs to sponsor this podcast because like that is the only thing that I'm like, especially like if I'm in bed and scrolling, I have a schedule from the brick and it just always unlocks my phone on social media.
16:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, thank you.
16:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
16:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not gonna go tap that.
16:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so, if you need help, the break is really helpful.
16:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I heard it's really good, I should do it.
16:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, just a quick pause from this conversation.
16:13
[SPEAKER_02]: The other 22 hours is an independent production built entirely on the idea that he's quiet on his conversation's matter.
16:20
[SPEAKER_02]: The best way to support our work is simply to share.
16:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you can think of one person who would appreciate this show, please pass it along.
16:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't yet, please follow our show in your listening platform of choice or subscribe to our channel on YouTube.
16:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a small action that we say massive difference for us.
16:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being here.
16:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's get back to our conversation.
16:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to touch on something before we got into like physicality in the getting out in the sunshine, which, yes, an instant bomb for myself too.
16:47
[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned talking about like the gutters and bowling and wanting to see where the gutter is and keep that in front of you.
16:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to hear more of your take on that in the work that
16:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I've done on myself and all of that.
16:58
[SPEAKER_02]: There's been a lot of talk about that and like the whole union psychology kind of thing of having a shadow self and acting out of shadows or through shadows and all that and the idea of keeping that in front of you.
17:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Not letting it be in the back, even the shadow in front of you and the sailing that's really resonating with me from that is that mold grows in the darkness.
17:16
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, in my struggles and things that I've done, it's like,
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: this mold that festers inside that just creates this feedback loop.
17:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I stuff it and put it away, you know, it sounds like we kind of grow up the same way.
17:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, nothing's wrong.
17:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Just stuff that over there.
17:28
[SPEAKER_02]: It just grows and it ends up coming out sideways in some form or the other side.
17:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Just wonder if you could expand more on that.
17:35
[SPEAKER_02]: What keeping the gutters in view for you means I love that.
17:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much.
17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: rooted in, I think, this sort of religious conservative Reagan era, just be presentable, be polite, be good.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, quote unquote, like societal good, right?
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But it usually leads to, don't be the squeaky wheel, right?
18:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Go along, get along.
18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Be seen, not heard, right?
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Firm handshake, smiles.
18:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all this politeness, which I'm really good at, performing politeness,
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: but I've noticed that I started to use politeness to buy time and space out of view in partnership, for example.
18:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm making the bed, I'm getting the chores done so that when she fucks off, I get to go be my little self.
18:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm going to go watch my show.
18:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go get drunk with my
18:39
[SPEAKER_01]: The only place I ever learned to exhaust was a loan or in vices, right?
18:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to get as high as humanly possible and it's not always self-destructive sometimes it's literally just I'm finally going to go watch my show where I'm going to listen to that album.
18:56
[SPEAKER_01]: but I've found that a lot of my growth was in solitude and that is sort of a scary place because you have to grow with people.
19:06
[SPEAKER_01]: If I grow all alone, then I'm not growing towards anyone.
19:10
[SPEAKER_01]: If I want to have a family, I can't just be like, cool, dad needs some buy.
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen people do that and parent like that and I notice it in myself this desire to be like, I need 48 hours away from
19:24
[SPEAKER_01]: When I realize that that's the shadow, that's the guy that's pulling me is like, hey, come to the dark bar.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't talk.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Be in yourself.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: There is this beautiful part to it.
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I think is running in the woods where I get to be with my mind.
19:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I get to be with my physicality.
19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's that darkness that is, you know, you just get off stage.
19:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You're overstimulated.
19:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like half a pint of whiskey would be incredible right now.
19:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Just to kind of be a person again
19:52
[SPEAKER_01]: the attention and all this stuff and like, I need to breathe, right?
19:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to do some yoga, I need to like go for a jog, I need to call someone that knows me, but this tendency is to just isolate.
20:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what does it look like to be able to see the gutter?
20:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I just can't close it out.
20:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't pretend that liquor doesn't exist.
20:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Can't pretend that the phone doesn't exist, right?
20:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Every green remeer in or every per time I go to a meeting, there's a whiskey car, you know, there's a liquor cart and it's like, oh, yeah.
20:19
[SPEAKER_01]: What message do you miss?
20:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I have to keep eyes on it because it's like the how we grew up, right?
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: If you pretend that divorce and porn and money and overeat, if you pretend all this stuff doesn't exist, then you're just unprepared for when it comes for you, right?
20:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I need anti bodies.
20:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I need someone to be like, hey, great show.
20:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I buy you a drink?
20:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like,
20:41
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I know what happens, but I'm happy to have you here and have a shelter with you and we can talk shop and whatever, like, hey, do you need a bump of something?
20:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, nah, brother, like, I know where that's going to go.
20:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good, but like, I'll hang out with you and smoke a cigarette while you do drugs.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mind.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to pretend that world doesn't exist.
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to socialize.
21:00
[SPEAKER_01]: need to connect with people even if they're fucked up and I'm not.
21:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just so important to stay close by.
21:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Same way with society as much as I want to get rich and move to the woods.
21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I should stay in my neighborhood.
21:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I should be a part of the civil discourse.
21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I should run for assembly, right?
21:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Or whatever, like, be involved, be involved, eat where you live, work where you raise your kids, be a part of something.
21:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not my nature.
21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: My nature is to run away and to do it all in secret.
21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm really forcing myself to think in this variety to try to be a part of the things that maybe I hate sometimes.
21:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Be a part of the things that even maybe I that hurt me.
21:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I see myself in a lot of those same decisions.
21:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me retreat and work on it in secret, not even telling anybody that I'm working on it, so that I can show up perfect, which is such a fallacy.
21:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm never going to show up perfectly.
21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's inherently shame there so that I retreat more.
21:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And then as I retreat, it's like this feedback loop of shame that just gets where the feeds, you know, all these choices of escaping, whether it's like, I'm going to see how many duties I can smoke in a day or just like, you know, before that kids and McKaylow's on tours, like, I'm just going to spend a few days eating mushrooms, like days, like, one out like, this is what I'm going to do.
22:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, let's see what happens.
22:14
[SPEAKER_02]: On the other end of that, I'm sober as well, is like being around the same thing.
22:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody offers me a drink.
22:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, oh, I'm good.
22:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm so sorry.
22:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, don't be.
22:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm choosing not to.
22:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And I like being around it.
22:24
[SPEAKER_02]: This kind of subliminal choosing not to, because it doesn't work for me.
22:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't put me in a place that I want to be in.
22:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm aware of that now.
22:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, this is a choice.
22:32
[SPEAKER_02]: As I make that choice in community.
22:35
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the presence of it, it actually is a feedback loop of
22:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Empowerments, the only word that comes to mind, but the anti-shame.
22:41
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh no, there was a good bit of time that I had lost some air quotes, friends.
22:46
[SPEAKER_02]: They were just bar friends.
22:47
[SPEAKER_02]: They were two A.M. bar friends that I thought were best friends, but they weren't.
22:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh man, I'm never going to be able to hang out with anybody again, because I don't have.
22:54
[SPEAKER_02]: and was tequila to make me talk.
22:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And now it's now I can fully like fully sit with a soda water with a lime in it and just be like cool.
23:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk.
23:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be out till three.
23:06
[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.
23:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I definitely needed sandwich from Duke's at 2 a.m. Let's go.
23:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But completely sober, you know.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And you realize like some of those conversations aren't that great.
23:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, showing up in those sober and you're like, I can't believe I thought we were fixing the whole entire planet.
23:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Every problem.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
23:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think what you were saying, even to take it a step further, you want to be able to see it.
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to pretend it doesn't exist.
23:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think even a step further of shadow work and shame and becoming whole as a person is
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only not pretending it doesn't exist, but not pretending that there isn't a part of you that has or does at times still want those things.
23:48
[SPEAKER_00]: The human part of us that like, yeah, sometimes I really do want to just get wasted.
23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Or yeah, even though I'm in a loving relationship, I want to feel wanted by somebody else sometimes or have a traction to somebody or
24:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel jealous.
24:03
[SPEAKER_00]: All these things that we deem bad, the power in admitting them to ourselves because they are essential human emotions, desires, qualities, and not thinking that then it determines our quality of being, but that our choice and what we do with those feelings and how we behave and whether we act on things, that's where the work is.
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: power and almost this cleansing of being like, yeah, I feel like this sometimes, which I think Nick, that's what you do in your songwriting and the way that you deliver it and the way that you sing it, even on an algorithm on a square in my phone, I remember the first time I saw a video of you singing like it stopped me because it emotionally pulled me in because of your emotional intensity.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that only comes from the willingness of letting yourself see your whole self or at least trying to and then sharing that with others.
25:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And in the writing that I was reading in your words, you said, I learned how to be good and how to perform my existence.
25:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And in my music, I wanted a place where I could be ugly.
25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes me so emotional to say that.
25:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh my god, I like tried it on and I was like, wow, how freeing is that to like let yourself be ugly?
25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: People are so scared of having fucked up thoughts and anyone knowing their misbehavior.
25:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's so natural, I guess, in how we've built society,
25:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the highlight real, you know.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the best photo of you.
25:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the moment where your kids are smiling not the moments where they're throwing a tantrum.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: We only show the best.
25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes sense because we've made everything a product and you don't want to show them messed up product, but it's so antithetical to community.
25:59
[SPEAKER_01]: How could I know anything about you if I don't know your flaws?
26:03
[SPEAKER_01]: How could we live in community together?
26:05
[SPEAKER_01]: How can you be my neighbor?
26:06
[SPEAKER_01]: If I don't know your shit, I see that's the biggest problem that the church has gone for it is that nobody talks about.
26:15
[SPEAKER_01]: How can you sell the God of redemption story and not have?
26:19
[SPEAKER_01]: anything to redeem.
26:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they love to wear the robe of like we're all original sin.
26:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We're also rotten, but I don't see it played out in anybody's life.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was the big thing for me when I left the church was like, I'm going to make a show out of being rotten, but not in like a self-flagellation way, just in like, hey, this thought, right?
26:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And everyone's like,
26:48
[SPEAKER_01]: the clown.
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mind having the role as the silly clown that no one takes serious and I can just scream my terrible thoughts and some people will be like that's really cringey and some people will be like oh you're so good and so talented like I think my role is just to yell the interests of thought and people that need it will point to it and people that don't need it don't need it.
27:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, to me.
27:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's being human.
27:12
[SPEAKER_02]: The larger name of it is human being.
27:14
[SPEAKER_02]: The second word is being in presence in the golden in the dark.
27:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Here are my brightest parts here in my darkest parts, but I'm being that holy that is seeming so easy to say, but so hard to do in practice, especially when you have a public career like YouTube front people do.
27:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Like he said, there's people in the comment section.
27:36
[SPEAKER_02]: People are seeing that, you know, and I think that just takes bravery, a lot of foundation to take that step openly.
27:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I always relate social media.
27:44
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like they call them followers.
27:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a strong poll as a human, like a breath of fresh air to see somebody show up in themselves, in integrity, in authenticity, just being a human being.
27:56
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a really strong poll to that.
27:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like my Kayla was saying about yeah, there's still days where you want to get fucked up where you do think someone is attractive or you want that sort of bad stuff, you know, like even by like eating journey, you know, there's days where like eat all the right eggs and avocado and kale and I'm on my good shit and I'm like,
28:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna fuck up some French toast.
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna eat an entire plate till I'm sick.
28:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's our nature.
28:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We are being right.
28:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We are flawed and we are beautiful and it's just so much life.
28:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Life is so fun and diverse and you can go get wrecked by the ocean or you can go get high in the mountains or you can go to the desert.
28:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get on a plane and go to the fucking Arctic and be frozen.
28:43
[SPEAKER_01]: diversity in our physical world, and then it's just a mirror of our internal world.
28:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Our internal world is in saying, and then I think meds obviously even just to kind of punch that down.
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I still would say, so it has to be met with curiosity.
29:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, you're going to have such a bad time.
29:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Going back to kind of shadow stuff, Jungian psychology is the belief that the more that we repress these things that we feel shameful about, the more they actually take control of our psyche.
29:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But true path to wholeness is to see them and hold them and be like, yeah, I have these tendencies and that's not because something's wrong with me.
29:24
[SPEAKER_00]: we all have these tendencies to different degrees and different degrees of willingness to admit them because we don't know what other people are thinking of.
29:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We only know what people are willing to share.
29:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm such a huge fan of people who are willing to share the breath of their human experience and their internal world which is probably why I'm a songwriter and why I love writers.
29:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so curious like as far as what I've learned about you from the internet
29:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Your path and my correct that you moved to Nashville and then you left and you went to Alaska and then came back Yes Can you talk about what role that time and life and that change of scenery and also Talk about vastly different environments industry versus not industry how that kind of Played any sort of role in your Development as a songwriter and person and performer
30:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have the antibodies for professionalism in passion.
30:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So I grew up north of Atlanta, big evangelical worship, rock band, church world.
30:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like a church, a type shit, everyone's got, they're like green, mine six, delay a puddle, and everyone's professional, and like it's like serious.
30:40
[SPEAKER_01]: People, friends of mine were making serious bag, playing three services a week on Sunday, and I just didn't have the chops,
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't technically good enough to really get those gigs, but I remember just being like, I'm leaving worship three days a week for nothing because I just loved it.
30:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was my trade, you know, it was like my exchange with God or whatever.
31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I found out it was like pro, I hated that, but then I eventually write at least.
31:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave a church, go to Alaska for winter with my brother when I was 18, kind of got the bug of like, I can be crazy, but then I was like, no, I need to go be a real person.
31:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went back, I went to Nashville, went to college, for songwriting, had a band, we were not very professional, but we played fun gigs, and that band fizzled out, and I had somebody setting me up with co-rides.
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was now doing music road, type writing, and trying to get a project off the ground.
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Right every day with somebody, go to the bar, network, have a good Instagram, get a picture, get your electronic press kit together, meet people, take meetings, stuff that I just hated every part of it.
31:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And it started to remind me of church.
31:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, you got to grease all these palms to get to the next level like I hate this.
31:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I didn't have it.
31:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went to Alaska again.
32:01
[SPEAKER_01]: My brother was still there.
32:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's no professionalism.
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some cats that are constantly gigging and paying rent like that, but it was all passion.
32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all open, Mike.
32:11
[SPEAKER_01]: All covered barband.
32:14
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no blue check next to anyone's Instagram handle in Alaska.
32:17
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no one, no one's gotten a cloud, no one wrote a big song 20 years ago, and they're still caching in on it.
32:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a single lick of
32:25
[SPEAKER_01]: any of the shit that we've been poisoned with being near the Nashville machine.
32:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's done anything cool.
32:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.
32:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible.
32:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like showing up at a place where no one's heard of anything you've heard of.
32:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure some people would be repulsed by that, but for me it was so intoxicating and healing and sweet to be somewhere where nobody was like, who wrote that?
32:49
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no credits.
32:50
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's curious about any aspect of anything beyond oh my god This is your song that's so cool.
32:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, play it again.
33:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You know like the just true like child like love of creativity And it just healed me I spent eight years in it
33:08
[SPEAKER_01]: growing medium-build in this fertile soil and not judging it, not thinking is this going to chart?
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this hold up against the new Nile Horan song?
33:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
33:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I just didn't have to play that game.
33:22
[SPEAKER_01]: The competition was with myself.
33:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Is like can I write a better song than I did yesterday to speak metaphorically?
33:28
[SPEAKER_02]: How is that little fertile creative garden holding up now that you're back to hunt in the Tennessee sun?
33:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been tough.
33:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I definitely have my antibodies now coming back.
33:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I sort of say I like Gandalf.
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I left as Gandalf the grain.
33:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I came back as Gandalf the White.
33:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And so now like the barista's in Nashville, Naomi, and fear me.
33:50
[SPEAKER_01]: and then the suit that rejected me 10 years ago fuck with me like it's changed.
33:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm more powerful and so I'm not as scared of the comparison stuff.
34:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel more attached to who I am and I kind of know what I do well.
34:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not as vulnerable but Aaron if I'm being completely honest.
34:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love living in industry.
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really love
34:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I go in the coffee and seeing like your publishers, you're like, so proud.
34:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I hate that shit.
34:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same for us too.
34:27
[SPEAKER_02]: We were out on Percy Priest Lake one day and it was sunny and it was before it was like too hot.
34:32
[SPEAKER_02]: It was before like Percy Priest turns into bathwater.
34:34
[SPEAKER_02]: It was still refreshing.
34:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It was nice.
34:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:36
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're sitting there.
34:36
[SPEAKER_02]: We have floats and I slowly realized that like everybody in their little float pillow party each group around us everybody was talking about the BMI check they got that day.
34:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like, oh my god.
34:48
[SPEAKER_02]: No, this is too much.
34:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We lived in New York City for 11 years, which is a different type of music city for sure.
34:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It is not the same vibe.
34:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we lived in Nashville for 12 years.
35:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, we're in this interim, but we're committed to being a Michigan for a year.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And we have two little kids.
35:08
[SPEAKER_00]: They started school.
35:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel this beginning.
35:11
[SPEAKER_00]: healing of like all I've known for the last decade is Nashville world where it just it's hard because it feels like a betrayal.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not like talking shit about Nashville.
35:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I love our friends, but everyone around us is also a musician.
35:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So conversations are often about not even music, but about careers, about numbers and strife over numbers or gigs or tours and
35:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been already like so interesting looking at myself of the way that I'm still holding on to that and we who am I if I'm not in that and Also how incredible it is to like go to our kids school picnic and like meet all these people with vastly different careers like I met in or an Aphologist last night and a biologist who studies animal movement and a professor of agriculture and I'm just like what is it so cool?
36:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my whole friend group in Alaska was like, eyelets, nurses, teachers, engineers, lawyers, and they were like, how'd your little music thing go in?
36:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's nice to be the weirdo.
36:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is.
36:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting, like navigating, talking to other people and they're like, oh, you're a musician, cool.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, you're like, yeah, I'm a professional musician, but like, not trying to be like, no, this is actually what I do for my job.
36:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it came in a conversation after like several minutes where I'm like, yeah, I've played Bonario and I'm like, wait, you've played Bonario?
36:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so interesting because you're like, my slot at Bonario was not good.
36:49
[SPEAKER_02]: in my community, this isn't a flex of me saying that, like, yeah, I kind of heard you say it about Alaska, though, we feel that being up here temporarily.
36:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just in Nashville last week working on a record.
37:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And everybody's like, so how is it?
37:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, is there anything going on?
37:04
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the scene like, I'm like, there is none, and it is just gloriously uncool, and I love every bit of it.
37:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what, I bet the open mic where you're out and Michigan, I bet it fucking slaps.
37:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet there's some genuine people going and just pouring their heart out.
37:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Just absolute open heart because there's no lens of will-like it's science from this performance.
37:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
37:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Who's in the room?
37:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
37:32
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's just the end of a thousand.
37:34
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I went to an open mic a couple weeks ago, like my first one in decades, and it was an enlightening experience, because it was also compared to Nashville's, not everybody was like an Americana country singer.
37:45
[SPEAKER_00]: There was like a glam rock, queer band.
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a rapper, there was a folk singer.
37:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just so diverse and so loving and so hyped and the place was packed.
37:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, this is probably some medicine.
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like you're also taking in the music, not, okay, how good of a guitar player are they?
38:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Or how good is their song?
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Or it felt much more... All right, I rank.
38:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
38:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt much more emotional than just what's our level of playing essentially.
38:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we're nearing the end of our time and we know that you have a very busy week.
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But we always end the conversation with the same question and I'm going to always let Aaron say it because I can never remember what it is.
38:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a bit of a, uh, choose your own adventure.
38:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be either or or both of it strikes your fancy.
38:34
[SPEAKER_02]: The first one being if there's something that someone has said to you or something that you've read or something you've picked up along your journey that continues to resonate and keep your cup full and keep you inspired or conversely something that you wish you knew at 18 when you were first, you know, you had that band a national in your first trying to make a career out of your creativity.
38:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, I'll do both because I just love to get up, but the first one, I recently became friends with Ben Queller, and he's just one of the most gracious people I've ever met with his time with his heart, who share an agent, and so we have, like, a really good friend in common.
39:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But Ben is just one of the most inspiring cats who've ever met.
39:19
[SPEAKER_01]: He lost his teenage son in a car accident a couple years ago.
39:23
[SPEAKER_01]: and you think that I would put someone into a place of never creating, you know, or just to deal with the emotional baggage, but him and his wife and his other boy, they just are more alive.
39:34
[SPEAKER_01]: To honor the missing family member, you know, and Ben told me this, in the back of his bus parked on a street in Atlanta, he was like, if you don't connect to the muse, it'll go somewhere else.
39:47
[SPEAKER_01]: if you don't get on your knees and try to connect and find it or them whatever, if you don't open your heart up through the song, it'll go find another someone who's ready to connect.
40:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was incredibly inspiring and also like, convicting.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, okay, I can't just expect that because I've written a great song that I'm gonna get a great song every day.
40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to sit down, I need to get on the mat.
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to go to the dojo and just start stretching these muscles out.
40:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to show up and ask the thing outside of me, right?
40:20
[SPEAKER_01]: The game, I need to be able to be like, okay, what is not me here?
40:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Please meet me.
40:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get this conversation going.
40:27
[SPEAKER_01]: They hear a guy who's written a million tenants and he's still hungry like he's 20 still wants to prove something he still wants to connect thousand incredibly good for me to hear and then your other question remind me what the other question I was not that I'd be happy
40:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It was what you wish that 18 year old you knew I wouldn't have listened even if I called him right now And I was like it's 35 year old you and I'd love to tell you something you'd be like okay And he'd be right one year up the other
40:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think I wish I had documented more.
41:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I had recorded more.
41:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish I had spent more time.
41:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so busy writing and playing live and obviously that's paying dividends now.
41:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just wish I had taken more pictures and recorded more voicemails and
41:15
[SPEAKER_01]: put the mics at the band practice.
41:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's maybe that's just the old geaser and me starting to come up.
41:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had so many ideas that have forgotten.
41:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I feel like prolific now, but I knew I was on some shit then and I was so scared.
41:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I gotta get it perfect before I show anybody.
41:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wish I had just released with a band, you know, just fucking, yeah.
41:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was just screaming everything into the mic and publicly put it out.
41:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'd be cringing at myself or I'd be canceled for some bad songs or something, but I think how freeing it is to just do the dance and let it all go.
41:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
41:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Man, Nick, we often say we're only able to go as deep in these conversations as I guess they're willing.
41:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And thank you so much for being so open and real with us here.
42:03
[SPEAKER_02]: We really appreciate it.
42:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been such an enjoyable
42:05
[SPEAKER_01]: This is such a great format.
42:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys are incredible.
42:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's cool to talk with people who are in it, you know, or know the real bits of it and really appreciate.
42:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Not asking me about what the album means.
42:17
[SPEAKER_01]: We're giving you talking about our artists.
42:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, thank you.
42:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Good luck with the rest of your sprint here.
42:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope it's fulfilling and exciting.
42:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, y'all.
42:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Appreciate it.
42:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk soon.
42:31
[SPEAKER_02]: We know your time is valuable and we're grateful you chose to spend this hour with us.
42:35
[SPEAKER_00]: If this conversation resonated with you, know that it is just one of many.
42:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We have an archive of over 140 conversations, so if you're looking for a where to go to next, you can find curated playlists by topic on our YouTube channel or simply scroll back in the speed to find our conversations with Rosencash, New York Times by selling author Maggie Smith, Lucius, J.D.
42:54
[SPEAKER_00]: McPherson, and many others.
42:56
[SPEAKER_02]: This shows produced by me, Mary Chaffer-based, with help from Michaela and all the music he hears written, performed and produced by me as well.
43:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Our show is edited and mixed by Leland Holden at Pod Punch, and we are proud members of the Bluegrass situation podcast network.
43:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being here.
43:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you next time.