Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / The 98% Success Method to Go Alcohol-Free and Get Lean (James Swanwick) | Ep 325

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The 98% Success Method to Go Alcohol-Free and Get Lean (James Swanwick) | Ep 325 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:01
  Philip Pape: You want to cut back on alcohol.
• 0:03
  Philip Pape: You've even tried a few times, yet somehow Friday night rolls around there you are, glass in hand, making the same old excuse about just want to relax, or I just enjoy the beer or the wine.
• 0:14
  Philip Pape: What if I told you alcohol isn't actually helping you unwind at all?
• 0:18
  Philip Pape: Today, my guest is a former ESPN anchor and the founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and he's revealing the neuroscience behind why smart, successful people continue drinking, despite often knowing better.
• 0:30
  Philip Pape: You'll discover why willpower fails, how alcohol sabotages your fitness goals, even a little bit of drinking, and a practical approach to breaking free without depriving yourself.
• 0:40
  Philip Pape: If you want to stop letting alcohol rob you of mental clarity and physical results, this conversation is for you.
• 0:53
  Philip Pape: Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.
• 1:00
  Philip Pape: I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing a topic that affects nearly everyone pursuing better health and fitness, and that is our relationship with alcohol, with drinking.
• 1:10
  Philip Pape: We all know that alcohol isn't great for our health goals, but many of us, especially high achievers, continue drinking regularly despite knowing better.
• 1:18
  Philip Pape: And why is that?
• 1:20
  Philip Pape: And can we approach this in a way that doesn't feel like deprivation?
• 1:23
  Philip Pape: To answer these questions.
• 1:24
  Philip Pape: I'm joined by James Swanick, a former SportsCenter anchor on ESPN, host of the Alcohol Free Lifestyle podcast and author of a new book, clear, which gives you a neuroscience-based method to quit drinking, based on root causes and not on brute force or willpower.
• 1:39
  Philip Pape: Today, you'll learn why smart people keep drinking even when they want to stop, the false beliefs we construct around alcohol, how drinking affects your fitness goals and, of course, some tips to break free from alcohol without feeling deprived.
• 1:51
  Philip Pape: James, thank you so much and welcome to the show.
• 1:54
  James Swanwick: Thank you very much.
• 1:55
  James Swanwick: Great to be here, Philip.
• 1:56
  Philip Pape: So, rather than jump into the topic of why people drink, I'm curious about when alcohol became so normal, like, why and when did it become so normal in society?
• 2:07
  James Swanwick: It starts when we are little kids and our parents say to us or the adult figures in our life say to us oh no, no, little Philip or James, you can't drink now.
• 2:16
  James Swanwick: You can drink when you're older.
• 2:17
  James Swanwick: And so our parents or the adult figures in our life implant this idea that drinking alcohol is something to aspire to, it's a rite of passage, you get to do it, it's something to savor.
• 2:29
  James Swanwick: I would submit that is a nonsense.
• 2:31
  James Swanwick: It's just attractively packaged poison, but that's where it starts.
• 2:34
  James Swanwick: Also, there's this conditioning that in order to create romance, in order to create camaraderie, in order to create celebration, we must have attractively packaged poison present, which, of course, is a ridiculous notion.
• 2:48
  James Swanwick: However, that has been passed forward through generations after generation, and now we're in this.
• 2:56
  James Swanwick: What I submit is this ridiculous cultural society where we have just normalized drinking, this poison which, as you reference, can be so damaging.
• 3:08
  James Swanwick: And I don't mean so damaging because you're waking up in a ditch or you're drinking excessively.
• 3:14
  James Swanwick: I mean so damaging that you only have one or two seemingly innocent drinks per day.
• 3:19
  James Swanwick: That can still be damaging, and I call that death by a thousand cuts.
• 3:22
  James Swanwick: It's not the waking up in a ditch, getting arrested, doing anything too crazy, but over many years and decades it catches up with you.
• 3:33
  Philip Pape: Attractively packaged poison.
• 3:34
  Philip Pape: I like it.
• 3:34
  Philip Pape: Okay, so we know where we're going with this show.
• 3:36
  Philip Pape: You know I want to pull on a thread there.
• 3:39
  Philip Pape: When you talk about conditioning from a young age, I definitely see that my dad drank beer pretty much regularly, like all his friends and all his peers, and I drank quite a bit most of my adult life.
• 3:51
  Philip Pape: What about cultures where it is not as aspirational and I don't know if those exist, like people think of France, kids start drinking from a young age, or whatever age, and it's not as taboo.
• 4:02
  Philip Pape: Are there any differences there that we see, or is it pretty much the same thing, just at different ages?
• 4:07
  James Swanwick: I would submit it's the same thing.
• 4:08
  James Swanwick: Different ages.
• 4:09
  James Swanwick: I mean, there are some cultural differences where, like you referenced, in France, people kind of build this idea of connection and family we must drink this poison.
• 4:19
  James Swanwick: But I'm saying you can build connection and family without drinking the poison.
• 4:22
  James Swanwick: And you know, the French may feel like, oh, this is a great way to create family ties, et cetera, but at what cost?
• 4:30
  James Swanwick: And that's what I really try to do in my book, clear, and what I try to do with my work, which is we're so focused on normalizing this alcohol and we justify it.
• 4:41
  James Swanwick: Oh yeah, it's fine to give kids 15, 14, 15, 16 alcohol in France.
• 4:46
  James Swanwick: You know, as long as they're not getting drunk, it's just a little thing, it's fine.
• 4:48
  James Swanwick: But what we're doing is we're setting them up for a lifetime of drinking habits.
• 4:52
  James Swanwick: And again in 2022, there was a study out of the UK of 35,000 middle-aged adults which showed that even one seemingly innocent drink per night was enough to cause some level of gray and white matter destruction in the brain, in other words, some level of brain degeneration.
• 5:07
  James Swanwick: And yet, culturally, we hang on to this idea that drinking is fine.
• 5:10
  James Swanwick: It's fine, it's fine, it's no big deal.
• 5:12
  James Swanwick: I'm not an alcoholic.
• 5:13
  James Swanwick: I'm not getting arrested, it's fine.
• 5:15
  James Swanwick: It's not fine and all of the new studies are showing that like the, the strain it puts on our heart, on our our liver, on our sleep, on our gains that we want in the gym, the additional calories we're consuming that we ordinarily would not if we weren't drinking, which can lead to a loss of confidence, which can lead to craving more sugary foods, which can lead to overeating, which can lead to obesity, which can lead to irritation and stress and frustration.
• 5:45
  James Swanwick: I'm trying to really articulate to people that the death by a thousand cuts are often silent cuts, invisible.
• 5:56
  James Swanwick: You don't see them.
• 5:57
  James Swanwick: But if we trace it all back, we can trace it back to starting drinking at age 14 or 15.
• 6:05
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and I would love the listener to come out of this episode even if they're skeptical or objective in terms of the cost benefit.
• 6:12
  Philip Pape: A lot of people do the cost benefit trade-offs of any of this stuff.
• 6:15
  Philip Pape: I mean, obviously nobody says here's a little Oxy, it's okay, here's a little heroin, it's okay.
• 6:20
  Philip Pape: And there's a cultural difference in how we treat alcohol as a premise.
• 6:24
  Philip Pape: Right, that we have to break through.
• 6:26
  Philip Pape: But then if we could get to the point where someone says, look, even one drink a month is a problem and or here's the trade-off I'm making, that would be helpful.
• 6:36
  Philip Pape: You mentioned gains.
• 6:36
  Philip Pape: That's like the key word, man, for everybody listening.
• 6:38
  Philip Pape: They're like, okay, you got my attention.
• 6:39
  Philip Pape: Now, james, let's talk about how it hurts my gains.
• 6:41
  Philip Pape: But really I want to go back to why people then defend it, besides the generalities that we talked about, why specific people rationalize it even when they know that it's bad, and we're going to get into why it's not great and why it's death by a thousand cuts.
• 6:57
  Philip Pape: But most people know let's be honest, right, and those in my community who listen to this podcast we definitely have talked about the hormonal impacts, the fat loss impacts, excessive consumption, sleep impacts, all of that.
• 7:09
  Philip Pape: We'll get into that, but why do people defend it in your practice?
• 7:14
  James Swanwick: People have been using it to relieve themselves of stress and anxiety, and they become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety.
• 7:24
  James Swanwick: They become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety.
• 7:29
  James Swanwick: The irony is is that we're drinking it to relieve ourselves of the very stress and anxiety that drinking itself is creating in the first place, and then we get stuck on this vicious stop-start cycle.
• 7:36
  James Swanwick: This vicious cycle we're also in our reptilian brain, if we go back hundreds of thousands of years and if you understand the concept of Dunbar's tribe.
• 7:48
  James Swanwick: Dunbar suggested that we used to be in tribes of about 160 people when we roamed.
• 7:53
  James Swanwick: The earth happened that meant almost certain death, because a rival tribe would kill you, or the saber-toothed tiger would chase you and eat you, or the bear would get you, or the wolf would get you, or you'd die of isolation somehow.
• 8:12
  James Swanwick: Now the reality is in the modern world, we're not going to die from being kicked out of a tribe, but nevertheless, that reptilian fear that we have still exists, and so that shows up with oh, if I'm not drinking, my friends will kick me out of the tribe, society will kick me out of the tribe.
• 8:32
  James Swanwick: It's this irrational fear in the modern world, a rational fear in the you know, years and years and years and years ago, centuries ago, but an irrational fear in today's world.
• 8:44
  James Swanwick: So we keep justifying it because it makes us feel safe.
• 8:49
  James Swanwick: We keep justifying it because it temporarily numbs us from the pain of being ourselves, because reaching for a drink is really only reaching for the pursuit of feeling something different in the moment.
• 9:04
  James Swanwick: In most cases, people with a drinking problem, let's say, are drinking to relieve themselves of an uncomfortable feeling.
• 9:11
  James Swanwick: And so if you then remove this thing that they've been trained to go to when they feel discomfort of any kind, well what are they left with?
• 9:24
  James Swanwick: Discomfort, discomfort, and that feels awful and unsettling, which is why people defend it so much because it does give them that temporarily, because it does numb themselves from the pain, because it does allow them to procrastinate on key strategic decisions in their life.
• 9:41
  James Swanwick: And also, addition, there are smiling assassins all over the world, and a smiling assassin is someone who's smiling as they offer you a drink or as they're drinking with you.
• 9:52
  James Swanwick: It's the waiter or the waitress who says hello, mr Pape, can I get you started with a glass of 10 pounds of unwanted body weight?
• 9:59
  James Swanwick: Hello, mr Swanwick, can I get you started with a bad night's sleep and some shame and regret in the morning.
• 10:06
  James Swanwick: That's essentially what they're saying when they show up and they're like oh, hello sir, hello ma'am, I'll be your waiter tonight.
• 10:12
  James Swanwick: I'll be your server.
• 10:12
  James Swanwick: Can I get you started from the drinks menu.
• 10:14
  James Swanwick: And then our friends are smiling hey, phil, can I get you a drink?
• 10:19
  James Swanwick: James, can I get you a?
• 10:20
  Philip Pape: drink.
• 10:20
  James Swanwick: And they try to be hospitable hosts.
• 10:22
  James Swanwick: That's very nice of them offering me a drink, but they're offering me attractively packaged poison, and so if everyone, as they're consuming this alcohol, is smiling and portraying this image of camaraderie, then the idea that you would stop drinking, unconsciously or consciously, means you are now rejecting the camaraderie, you're rejecting the tribe, You're rejecting culture, yeah, fear of getting kicked out of the tribe, hence commercials that portray huge parties and a grand old time when drinking.
• 11:00
  Philip Pape: It's interesting because, philosophically I don't know if you found this to be true in your life, not even with alcohol, but with anything it seems like the thing everyone doing, often not the, not the thing we want to be doing.
• 11:10
  Philip Pape: Do you notice that?
• 11:11
  Philip Pape: Okay, so there's a little carve out in there.
• 11:13
  Philip Pape: I want to address, because people are going to say well, what if I'm the type of person who I drink one beer every three weeks and it's at home, by myself or with my family because I like the taste of beer, right, those kinds of?
• 11:25
  Philip Pape: I'm trying to dig into some of the rationales people have and I'm curious about those.
• 11:29
  James Swanwick: If they're drinking one beer every three weeks, you know, candidly, I don't see there's any real issue with that.
• 11:34
  James Swanwick: If you generally like the taste and you're drinking a beer or two every three weeks, that's not going to cause too many problems, from my research and from what I have read.
• 11:43
  James Swanwick: But then the question really is are you sure that it's only three weeks?
• 11:48
  James Swanwick: Are you sure it's every three weeks?
• 11:51
  James Swanwick: And most people, if they're honest when they dig into it, maybe it's not, maybe I'm drinking a little bit more consistently than I would like to admit.
• 12:00
  James Swanwick: In that scenario, philip, there's no real challenge, no real problem.
• 12:03
  James Swanwick: Long-term health consequences?
• 12:05
  James Swanwick: Short-term, sure, because if you're drinking beer anywhere close to bedtime, that's going to compromise your sleep.
• 12:10
  James Swanwick: And when you have a compromised sleep you wake up just a little bit irritable, just a little bit more fatigued, a little bit more tired.
• 12:16
  James Swanwick: Your body stores a little bit more fat.
• 12:18
  James Swanwick: You don't lift as heavy in the gym, you're not as motivated to go to the gym in the first place Because you're tired.
• 12:23
  James Swanwick: You might then reach for a sugary food to give you a little bit of an energy boost.
• 12:26
  James Swanwick: So ordinarily you wouldn't eat the chocolate bar or the muffin, but now you reach for the chocolate bar and the muffin, or the Gatorade instead of a soda water, and now you're drinking some more sugar and you know what I mean Like.
• 12:37
  James Swanwick: So these kind of things can really happen, and most people are drinking close to bedtime.
• 12:42
  James Swanwick: That destroys your sleep.
• 12:44
  James Swanwick: What you're essentially doing when you drink close to bedtime is clocking in for a night's work at a time when you are supposed to be clocking out from the day's work.
• 12:54
  James Swanwick: Your body wants to be resting, it doesn't want to be working.
• 12:58
  James Swanwick: So again, coming back to it, look, a drink on occasion here and there, as long as you don't feel like it's compromising your life, no problems.
• 13:07
  James Swanwick: But be aware even that is going to compromise your sleep, which is going to compromise the following day.
• 13:14
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and I think people will compare.
• 13:16
  Philip Pape: Sometimes they'll compare alcohol to say poor food choices.
• 13:21
  Philip Pape: And I'm all about flexible dieting, right, like if you're eating 80%, 90% whole nutritious foods, then indulge in the rest, you're probably in the top 95% as far as diets go.
• 13:32
  Philip Pape: But what are your thoughts about that when people compare the allowances they give themselves for that flexibility on the food side versus the alcohol side?
• 13:42
  Philip Pape: Because I feel like there's zero benefit to alcohol, whereas the food at least has contextual benefit.
• 13:48
  James Swanwick: I mean, why are we negotiating with ourselves over this?
• 13:52
  James Swanwick: Like, why are we still clamoring on how can I have a drink?
• 13:56
  James Swanwick: Can I have a drink?
• 13:56
  James Swanwick: I'll just drink on weekends.
• 13:57
  James Swanwick: I'll just drink on special occasions.
• 13:59
  James Swanwick: What is it about it that's so special?
• 14:02
  James Swanwick: It's piss in an attractive bottle, like.
• 14:06
  James Swanwick: I really challenged this.
• 14:07
  James Swanwick: The first time anyone had a drink probably you were 12, 13, 14, you had a sip or something.
• 14:12
  James Swanwick: Did it taste nice?
• 14:13
  James Swanwick: Nope, of course it didn't.
• 14:16
  James Swanwick: I remember my dad gave me brandy and I spat it out.
• 14:19
  James Swanwick: I went ugh.
• 14:19
  James Swanwick: So it naturally doesn't taste good.
• 14:23
  James Swanwick: We've acquired the taste as we've gone along again.
• 14:26
  James Swanwick: Why are we just so in love with this damn thing?
• 14:30
  James Swanwick: Do you remember the movie raiders of the lost ark with, yeah, of course, indiana jones?
• 14:34
  James Swanwick: You know in that in the first scene where he's got the idol and he's running away from the, the, the boulder, and then he kind of escapes the boulder but then the nazi is there with the tribes and then the tribes andmen are all got their bows and arrows pointed at him and he has to hand over, reluctantly, the idol to the nazi sympathizer and the nazi sympathizer holds up the idol and all the tribesmen quickly stop pointing the bow and arrow at indiana jones and start bowing down and saluting this idol, this golden, golden idol, and that enables Indiana Jones to make his escape.
• 15:07
  James Swanwick: That's what we're doing with alcohol.
• 15:10
  James Swanwick: We're bowing down and worshiping the idol of alcohol.
• 15:15
  James Swanwick: And I say why?
• 15:17
  James Swanwick: I say why are we worshiping this false god?
• 15:22
  James Swanwick: Because it's like a toxic friend.
• 15:26
  James Swanwick: It doesn't want you to leave it, it doesn't want you to break up with it, it doesn't do anything good for you, it doesn't serve you.
• 15:32
  James Swanwick: And yet you're staying in this toxic relationship.
• 15:35
  James Swanwick: You're choosing to stay in this toxic relationship while simultaneously bowing down and saluting it.
• 15:44
  James Swanwick: So we're frustrated by the consequences of the relationship, yet we're still, like in the raiders of the lost ark movie, bowing down and worshiping it.
• 15:52
  James Swanwick: So just stop worshiping it, stop clinging to this idea like oh, but I can just drink on a special occasion.
• 15:59
  James Swanwick: Why is drinking worthy of being referred to as a special occasion?
• 16:05
  James Swanwick: The special occasion is health, joy, clarity, focus, a good night's sleep, great connection, fun, laughter, movement, connection, gratitude.
• 16:15
  James Swanwick: That is the special occasion.
• 16:17
  James Swanwick: And you can have a special occasion every damn day of your life, living alcohol free.
• 16:23
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I love it and I think, at least in my personal experience, the relationship with alcohol for me and I've seen this for a lot of people evolved as I embraced a healthy lifestyle elsewhere.
• 16:34
  Philip Pape: Right, and I think that's at least those listening to this show.
• 16:36
  Philip Pape: I'm hoping that you know this, this episode I can share with them to say, look, you care so much about lifting, moving, eating right, mental health, walking, sleeping.
• 16:48
  Philip Pape: Why is this special, is what you're saying, and so maybe we hit on the top couple reasons, one you already mentioned, which is that we think it relieves stress and we think it's going to help us unwind, and it's even worse when we do it at night.
• 17:00
  Philip Pape: But why isn't that the case?
• 17:01
  Philip Pape: Why does it not actually relieve stress and what's happening physiologically?
• 17:04
  Philip Pape: Yeah, well, it actually creates more stress.
• 17:06
  James Swanwick: And what's happening physiologically?
• 17:06
  James Swanwick: Yeah well, it actually creates more stress Temporarily.
• 17:10
  James Swanwick: When we drink it, it gives us this temporary, illusionary sense of relief Right, so it does provide this feeling of relief for a little while 20 minutes, 45 minutes an hour but then the consequences of that relief then create more stress and anxiety.
• 17:27
  James Swanwick: That leaves you craving, wanting to then create more stress and anxiety.
• 17:29
  James Swanwick: That leaves you craving, wanting to relieve yourself of stress and anxiety.
• 17:31
  James Swanwick: And it's this perpetual vicious cycle.
• 17:34
  James Swanwick: It's this merry-go-round that you just are unable to get off.
• 17:39
  James Swanwick: When we drink, the body straight away recognizes it as a foreign poison and the body then goes to work to try to rid itself of the poison.
• 17:50
  James Swanwick: We're consuming toxins.
• 17:52
  James Swanwick: The body doesn't like these toxins.
• 17:54
  James Swanwick: The body's then saying how do I get rid of these toxins?
• 17:57
  James Swanwick: So you're now putting undue strain, unwanted, undesirable strain on the body.
• 18:02
  James Swanwick: The liver goes to work, the heart rate increases.
• 18:06
  James Swanwick: That puts pressure on the heart.
• 18:07
  James Swanwick: The enzymes liver enzymes go up.
• 18:10
  James Swanwick: It also has us increasing our appetite.
• 18:18
  James Swanwick: So we end up eating more food than we might ordinarily eat just because we've drunk a glass of red wine or a beer or a scotch or whatever.
• 18:27
  James Swanwick: All of a sudden, because it's turning into sugar.
• 18:28
  James Swanwick: It leaves our body going oh okay, I want more of this.
• 18:30
  James Swanwick: Let me get more of this.
• 18:31
  James Swanwick: You know, you haven't eaten carbs for a while and then you start eating carbs and then you just really desire more carbs.
• 18:37
  James Swanwick: That's what happens.
• 18:39
  Philip Pape: Deprivation amplifies desire.
• 18:40
  Philip Pape: Yep.
• 18:41
  James Swanwick: Yeah, and think about it Like you go to a restaurant and you sit down and you're trying to do a cut and you're trying to watch your calories, you're trying to lose some weight, and you say I'm not having the dessert tonight, no way.
• 18:52
  James Swanwick: And the smiling assassin comes over and says oh, can I get you a glass of wine?
• 18:56
  James Swanwick: Oh, just have a glass of Riesling or one glass of white wine.
• 19:00
  James Swanwick: Okay, you're just drinking 300 calories in that white wine, same amount of calories as a donut or a packet of crisps, but more than that, because the drink now increases your appetite.
• 19:11
  James Swanwick: Now, when the dessert menu comes over, the smiling assassin goes oh, can I get you some desserts, some cake?
• 19:17
  James Swanwick: Would you like the cookie?
• 19:17
  James Swanwick: And you're like all right, okay, who do you want to split it with me?
• 19:21
  James Swanwick: All right, all right, okay, we'll have it after all.
• 19:23
  James Swanwick: And then you have that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing.
• 19:25
  James Swanwick: And then you get that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing.
• 19:28
  James Swanwick: And then you get in the taxi or the Uber and you go home and you go to sleep.
• 19:33
  James Swanwick: And then you wake up in the morning and you go oh man, I wish I didn't have that glass of wine and that piece of cheesecake last night, right, and now you've undone all the good work that you had.
• 19:43
  James Swanwick: So, look, it causes the body to go to to work.
• 19:49
  James Swanwick: But you don't want the body to go to work, at least not in that way.
• 19:53
  James Swanwick: You want the body to go to work when you're in the gym and you're looking for gains.
• 19:56
  James Swanwick: You want to build some muscle, you're looking to burn so bad, that's when you want the body to work.
• 19:59
  James Swanwick: But guess what a great night's sleep is where the repair from that work happens.
• 20:06
  James Swanwick: But when you are looking to rest to grow the muscle, to get the gains, you're now saying oh no, we're not going to rest, I'm putting you to work again.
• 20:16
  James Swanwick: The body's unable to do what you want it to do from the intention that you have from going to the gym in the first place so does it also impact hormones?
• 20:29
  Philip Pape: my understanding is that moderate, almost daily drinking does have a really insidious impact on hormones lowers libido in men, raises the risk of breast cancer in women, slows down the metabolism.
• 20:48
  James Swanwick: So if you're looking to burn unwanted body weight, for example, it's not going to happen if you're drinking, or it's not going to happen as effectively if you are drinking.
• 20:57
  James Swanwick: You're just literally pouring more calories in and also slowing down the process.
• 21:02
  James Swanwick: There's a couple of studies out.
• 21:03
  James Swanwick: I'll have to dig in a little bit more into those studies but they found that one or two drinks the night before is enough to slow down your metabolism to the point of a few pounds a week.
• 21:12
  James Swanwick: I'd have to dig into that a little bit more, but I know that your listeners here are particularly interested in lifting weights and gains and losing weight, muscle and things like that.
• 21:22
  James Swanwick: So if, if you're if, let's just say, fat loss is your goal, that can slow down your metabolism enough to have you leaving.
• 21:33
  James Swanwick: Have you feeling frustrated that you're not losing as much weight?
• 21:35
  James Swanwick: I'm actually on a cut at the moment.
• 21:37
  James Swanwick: I'm tracking all of my food with MyFitnessPal and I'm walking 16, 17,000 steps a day at the moment and I'm trying to do like under 1650 calories a day and I've been tracking it.
• 21:51
  James Swanwick: In the first seven days I lost a lot of money, not a lot of money, I'm sorry, a lot of pounds.
• 21:58
  James Swanwick: Six pounds in in a week and then it kind of stalled and I got a bit frustrated.
• 22:03
  James Swanwick: What's going on?
• 22:04
  James Swanwick: And then when I kind of dug it, I realized I wasn't entering a couple of drinks, not alcoholic drinks, but I wasn't adding electrolyte drinks and some coffee into the app.
• 22:15
  James Swanwick: I was just putting the food, not the liquids.
• 22:17
  James Swanwick: And when I looked at like the electrolytes how many calories and stuff were in the electrolytes, I was like, oh my God, there's like 100 there.
• 22:24
  James Swanwick: And oh my God, the coffee there.
• 22:25
  James Swanwick: There's like a 50 or 100 there, depending if it's a latte or not.
• 22:28
  James Swanwick: And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that's two, that's 200, maybe 300 calories a day over seven days.
• 22:33
  James Swanwick: That's 2100 calories.
• 22:35
  James Swanwick: Like to have that?
• 22:35
  James Swanwick: Yeah, yeah, at least that's enough for you not to lose that weight.
• 22:39
  James Swanwick: So the same thing with the alcohol, right, not only is it additional calories, but it's the slowing down of the metabolism, it's's the disruption of the hormones your melatonin release.
• 22:48
  James Swanwick: Melatonin is an important hormone for sleep that doesn't release in the way that nature intended it to release when you drink destroys sleep.
• 22:57
  James Swanwick: So, yes, there's massive hormonal effects if you drink even innocent amounts of drink, of alcohol.
• 23:04
  Philip Pape: Yeah, people need to understand this because there's cascading effects.
• 23:07
  Philip Pape: There's the stoppage of fat oxidation because the toxins have to be metabolized first.
• 23:13
  Philip Pape: There's all of that and the last question I guess I have before we get into the neuroscience and then how we break this habit, because ultimately people are like, okay, now what do we do?
• 23:22
  Philip Pape: Is there anything else you would put at the same level as alcohol, assuming someone is not smoking or taking drugs?
• 23:28
  Philip Pape: Is there anything else you would put equivalent to alcohol or near it, or is it in a class of its own?
• 23:34
  James Swanwick: That's a great question.
• 23:35
  James Swanwick: There's a couple of studies that have come out over the past five or six years, so just before the pandemic hit.
• 23:41
  James Swanwick: There was a study that I referenced in my book, clear, which showed the damage and harm to individuals and the damage and harm to society and listed the whole lot of drugs.
• 23:54
  James Swanwick: Would you be shocked to learn that alcohol is actually more damaging to society than cocaine?
• 24:00
  James Swanwick: Like that's extraordinary.
• 24:03
  James Swanwick: It's something like I have to reference the book a little bit better here.
• 24:07
  James Swanwick: But there's like heroin, crack, crack, cocaine, meth, alcohol, and then there's like cocaine and things and it goes down from there Right and ketamine and things like that society either slightly above or slightly under consequence significance than meth and crack and heroin.
• 24:34
  James Swanwick: Like crazy in terms of the damage to society.
• 24:39
  James Swanwick: The fact that alcohol would even be close to heroin and the impact on society is astounding.
• 24:48
  James Swanwick: And yet it's legal, it's on every corner.
• 24:51
  James Swanwick: We smile when we consume it.
• 24:53
  Philip Pape: It's just because it's death by a thousand cuts and we don't see it so obviously in front of our eyes until years, decades have passed yeah, many people are opting into this and, like you said, even as a society we've opted in and I'm sure it's a function of scale too right, just the fact that that's the case, it means it's just pervasive everywhere.
• 25:15
  Philip Pape: Okay.
• 25:16
  Philip Pape: So if someone says, all right, I get it.
• 25:18
  Philip Pape: It's not great, there's no benefits, it's a poison death by a thousand cuts.
• 25:22
  Philip Pape: What do I do about this?
• 25:24
  Philip Pape: I know you, you know in your book, which when we were, when we scheduled this, I don't even think it was out yet, and it came out pretty recently.
• 25:29
  Philip Pape: I believe.
• 25:30
  James Swanwick: Yeah, it did.
• 25:31
  James Swanwick: Yeah Came out in March of 2025.
• 25:33
  Philip Pape: Yeah, yeah, exactly Just a couple of months ago.
• 25:35
  Philip Pape: So you definitely talk about the neuroscience there, dopamine and the reward centers and all of that.
• 25:42
  Philip Pape: Where's the best place to start so that someone understands, like, how they're altering their brain and how they can then use that information to change their behavior?
• 25:50
  James Swanwick: Stop saying to yourself you need to stop, I have to quit, don't drink.
• 25:54
  James Swanwick: Because the mind doesn't understand the negative command.
• 25:58
  James Swanwick: It just hears the word alcohol.
• 26:00
  James Swanwick: So a lot of us are walking around saying, geez, I need to quit, I hope I don't drink.
• 26:13
  James Swanwick: Don't drink tonight.
• 26:14
  James Swanwick: And there's a bundle of nerves in the brain called the RAS, which stands for reticular activating system, and those bundle of nerves are like a laser seeking missile, which is it will focus on whatever it is that you are repeatedly thinking about.
• 26:21
  James Swanwick: So if you are repeatedly thinking about alcohol, even if you're saying don't drink, need to quit, you're thinking about alcohol, alcohol, alcohol.
• 26:28
  James Swanwick: So it's a lot easier for you to drink alcohol.
• 26:31
  James Swanwick: It's harder for you to stop right.
• 26:33
  James Swanwick: On the flip side of that, if you say to yourself what you will do, I'm easily going to drink soda water, ice and a piece of lime tonight.
• 26:42
  James Swanwick: I'm easily going to walk up to the barman and say you know what?
• 26:44
  James Swanwick: Give me a soda water, ice and a splash of cranberry.
• 26:46
  James Swanwick: Now, that's very easy.
• 26:48
  James Swanwick: The mind and the reticular activating system understands that positive command.
• 26:52
  James Swanwick: We're telling ourselves what to do as opposed to telling ourselves what not to do.
• 26:56
  James Swanwick: And when we tell ourselves what to do.
• 26:59
  James Swanwick: It's a lot simpler and a lot easier for us to achieve and accomplish that very thing.
• 27:04
  Philip Pape: You know, I was thinking about how we're titling this episode and when I look at your content and everything, I think we start from the quit and the stop and the have to not drink alcohol, right, because that's how we reach someone who's thinking that way.
• 27:16
  Philip Pape: I don't know if you agree with that, but like you see it in the marketing side, and then I imagine you have to then do the switch and say let's.
• 27:23
  Philip Pape: It's kind of like I talk to people and they're like I've got to lose weight and I say, well, really we're not trying to lose weight, we're trying to build muscle and we're trying to add in nutritious foods and we're trying to add in protein and we want to.
• 27:33
  Philip Pape: So I love, that it's directly tied to our brain in that way.
• 27:38
  Philip Pape: So what are your thoughts on that then?
• 27:39
  Philip Pape: The language we use, the marketing, the whole kind of journey that people go through from the initial recognition to the switch.
• 27:48
  James Swanwick: People are always saying sober, sobriety, recovery, clean.
• 27:52
  James Swanwick: We don't use any of that language.
• 27:53
  James Swanwick: In our organization, at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, we use the phrase alcohol-free, we're choosing an alcohol-free lifestyle.
• 27:59
  James Swanwick: The name of my coaching organization is called Alcohol-Free Lifestyle and the key word there is lifestyle.
• 28:06
  James Swanwick: It's the style of life, life.
• 28:08
  James Swanwick: It's not needing to be sober and white, knuckling it and trying to be like sober, sobriety, recovery, clean, surrender to a higher power.
• 28:18
  James Swanwick: We dismiss all of that verbiage.
• 28:19
  James Swanwick: It's been used for 75, 80 years and that's why aa, who really uses that language, has a seven percent success rate and a 93% failure rate if you judge success over long term.
• 28:32
  James Swanwick: So we instead say we get to be alcohol free, we choose to be alcohol free as opposed to I need to be sober, I'm sobriety, I'm three years sober, I'm like three years sober means that you've probably been white knuckling it for three years, whereas we get to be alcohol free, I get to choose this lifestyle.
• 28:51
  James Swanwick: That's the kind of verbiage difference and instead of using phrases like I need to, I have to, which feels very draining and heavy and tough and implies friction, we say I choose to, I get to, I want to, and it might seem you know, minor, a minor thing, but we arise in language, we are language, and so the subtle changes there can have profound generational impact.
• 29:18
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 29:19
  Philip Pape: I think there's parallels with positive psychology.
• 29:22
  Philip Pape: Not sure how familiar you are with that field, but it's only about 20 years old, right, where traditional psychology focused on the negative of the syndromes, of the disorders of our brain, and then positive psychology came along and said well, positive isn't the opposite of negative, positive is its own, it's its own thing, it's independent of negative.
• 29:41
  Philip Pape: The more positivity we add in, you know, to simplify it, it crowds.
• 29:45
  Philip Pape: It can crowd out the negative, I guess, is one way to put it.
• 29:48
  Philip Pape: I see the same thing with nutrition or a fitness lifestyle.
• 29:51
  Philip Pape: Right, we choose to train three days a week because X?
• 29:55
  Philip Pape: Right, Because it supports our goals, and you then find out how you're going to change your schedule around that which then ends up getting rid of your Netflix binging here or your unproductive activity over here, whatever.
• 30:08
  Philip Pape: So I think that is powerful, james, I'm glad you brought that up because there's a lot to be said for language.
• 30:13
  Philip Pape: So if someone's listening and saying, okay, I'm a casual drinker, right, I'm not speaking necessarily to alcoholics here, but I'm a casual drinker, I still think I want to drink because of the social experience.
• 30:26
  Philip Pape: But now I understand why that's just a false belief.
• 30:29
  Philip Pape: Let's say uh, I still love the taste of beer, or I still love the taste of wine or whatever.
• 30:33
  Philip Pape: Again, rationale.
• 30:34
  Philip Pape: What's the first step?
• 30:36
  Philip Pape: Is it what they tell themselves, or is it coming up with a behavior that replaces it?
• 30:42
  James Swanwick: Well, first step is is identifying that you can have a better and more fun and a preferable lifestyle being alcohol-free and choosing alcohol-free.
• 30:50
  James Swanwick: Once you believe that, then it becomes very easy to live an alcohol-free lifestyle.
• 30:56
  James Swanwick: But while you are maintaining this, what I would submit mistaken belief that alcohol equals fun and not drinking alcohol equals deprivation and pain it's going to be very, very challenging, which is why these 30-day challenges are mostly ineffective over the long term, because people are going in there trying to get to 30 days, white-knuckling it, depriving themselves, and what do they do on day 30, philip?
• 31:19
  James Swanwick: They celebrate with the drink and they return to the same level of drinking that inspired them to want to stop in the first place.
• 31:27
  James Swanwick: So the first thing is trying to rewire the mindset, and this is what we do in our 90-day stop drinking process, which is called Project 90, in which we outline in the book Clear, which is we try to rewire your mindset, and that is taking it from drinking equals fun and pleasure and connection and romance, and not drinking equals pain and suffering and deprivation, to drinking equals pain and suffering and not drinking equals joy and ease and calm and relationship and romance and fun and celebration.
• 31:58
  James Swanwick: So that's the first step.
• 32:00
  James Swanwick: It's that mindset and that's why people come to us.
• 32:02
  James Swanwick: We try to help them rewire their mindset around that.
• 32:06
  James Swanwick: And the second thing is kind of what james, who wrote the book Atomic Habits, talks about, which is setting yourself up to win with your environment.
• 32:13
  James Swanwick: So that is removing the cues that gets you to drink in the first place in your home.
• 32:18
  James Swanwick: So, for example, a lot of people have bottles of wine and a liquor cabinet and wine glasses and corkscrews and posters with beer things on it and all these kind of shrines to alcohol.
• 32:29
  James Swanwick: My invitation is remove that, because all of those cues those visible cues are making you think about alcohol and so then you're more likely to go and drink alcohol.
• 32:38
  James Swanwick: In other words, just get it out of the home.
• 32:40
  James Swanwick: Now, this is not about trying to remove yourself from all circumstances in life where alcohol is present, because that's unrealistic.
• 32:47
  James Swanwick: Alcohol will always be there, it will always be flowing, it will always be colleagues, always be friends, families, parties, bars, restaurants.
• 32:53
  James Swanwick: But in your own home you can remove it right, get it out of the home and then replace it with visible cues of health and vitality.
• 33:02
  James Swanwick: I suggest to our clients you buy yourself a bouquet of flowers, whether you're a man or a woman, you put, you get glass mason jars and you strategically leave them around the house.
• 33:11
  James Swanwick: So when you see the glass mason jars, you think about drinking water.
• 33:14
  James Swanwick: You go and you fill up water with some purified water.
• 33:17
  James Swanwick: You drink the water.
• 33:18
  James Swanwick: The flowers are a visible representation of health and vitality and color and scent.
• 33:23
  James Swanwick: Think of those flowers as your own body.
• 33:25
  James Swanwick: The flowers need sunlight.
• 33:28
  James Swanwick: The flowers need water, needs water replacing.
• 33:31
  James Swanwick: Look at those flowers each day and go, oh, I need sunlight, I need water replacing.
• 33:35
  James Swanwick: Let me go outside, let me go for a walk.
• 33:38
  James Swanwick: The other thing is there's a lot of studies that suggest that you can reduce cravings for any drug, including alcohol, by just having a daily gratitude practice.
• 33:45
  James Swanwick: So a lot of the things that we do with our clients in our Project 90 Stop Drinking process is we have them for 90 straight days, write down 20 things that they are grateful for.
• 33:56
  James Swanwick: We call it the Daily 20.
• 33:57
  James Swanwick: And just that exercise alone living a life of appreciation instead of expectation, is enough to reduce cravings by an incredible 30% plus.
• 34:07
  James Swanwick: In addition to that, the way in which you share with friends and family and colleagues that you're not drinking is more important than what you actually say.
• 34:17
  James Swanwick: A lot of people mistakenly think they've got to come up with some logical reason as to why they're not drinking.
• 34:22
  James Swanwick: But there's a lot of studies of human behavior and psychology and influence that shows that to influence anyone, it's only 7% what you say and 93% how you say it.
• 34:33
  James Swanwick: And how you say it is body language, tonality, pacing, facial gestures.
• 34:38
  James Swanwick: So instead of going into a situation where someone's going why aren't you drinking?
• 34:42
  James Swanwick: Instead of oh, I wish I could.
• 34:44
  James Swanwick: No, I'm doing this 30-day challenge, I'm sober and you're implying that not drinking is boring and dull, instead you go oh no, I'm alcohol-free at the moment.
• 34:54
  James Swanwick: I'm like 90 days.
• 34:55
  James Swanwick: I've been six months.
• 34:56
  James Swanwick: I'm feeling pretty good.
• 34:57
  James Swanwick: I lost a bit of weight, I'm sleeping better, I'm owning it and we can just relax and have a good time.
• 35:11
  James Swanwick: You drink your drinks.
• 35:12
  James Swanwick: I'll drink my alcohol-free drinks.
• 35:13
  James Swanwick: Now, everyone can have a good time.
• 35:16
  James Swanwick: So they would be some of the things that I would get people started with.
• 35:19
  James Swanwick: And most importantly, I think, is just own the fact that you love being alcohol-free.
• 35:25
  James Swanwick: Love it, feel good about it and people will relax and they won't judge you.
• 35:29
  Philip Pape: This is so good, this is gold.
• 35:30
  Philip Pape: It's funny you were saying that because it works with other things.
• 35:34
  Philip Pape: We homeschool our kids and sometimes you'll get a lot of cynicism from people like, oh, what are you going to do about high school?
• 35:40
  Philip Pape: Oh, how are they going to get this and that?
• 35:41
  Philip Pape: And some people try to defend themselves and we're like yeah, thanks for asking, like we love it because of this.
• 35:48
  Philip Pape: So almost like toxically positive, but not really.
• 35:51
  Philip Pape: I mean people will say I'm a positivity bully.
• 35:53
  Philip Pape: I'm a big fan of reframing, like you just suggested.
• 35:55
  Philip Pape: You also mentioned the cues, which works well for food as well.
• 35:58
  Philip Pape: We talked about your food environment.
• 36:00
  Philip Pape: We just went to Disney World and there's a lot of opportunities to see alcohol at different bars and restaurants and one of my kids said well, isn't that pretty?
• 36:09
  Philip Pape: And I said what are you talking about?
• 36:11
  Philip Pape: She said all the bottles up behind the bar.
• 36:18
  Philip Pape: I'm like we do glamorize the beauty of it through the packaging, through the liquor bottles, the vodka right, you know what I'm saying when even my little 11-year-old thinks it's pretty.
• 36:25
  Jerry: I just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.
• 36:33
  Jerry: I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.
• 36:37
  Jerry: Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth.
• 36:47
  Jerry: If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level.
• 36:59
  Jerry: Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have.
• 37:07
  Jerry: And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use.
• 37:27
  Jerry: If all that sounds interesting to you.
• 37:29
  Jerry: Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out.
• 37:35
  Jerry: So thanks again, Philip.
• 37:38
  Philip Pape: All of this is great.
• 37:39
  Philip Pape: So, anyway, I'm just sharing some personal anecdotes Just to recap for the listener.
• 37:43
  Philip Pape: The first thing you said was embracing this as a lifestyle, as a positive.
• 37:47
  Philip Pape: Being proud, being positive, saying like being alcohol-free, is the thing I want to be.
• 37:52
  Philip Pape: It's aligned with my goals.
• 37:53
  Philip Pape: Of course I'm not ashamed of it.
• 37:55
  Philip Pape: Of course I'm going after it.
• 37:56
  Philip Pape: The second thing you mentioned was removing the cues.
• 37:59
  Philip Pape: We just touched on that a little bit.
• 38:01
  Philip Pape: And then the third thing being the gratitude Does that work for emotional eating as well?
• 38:06
  Philip Pape: And the third thing being the gratitude, does that work for emotional eating as well?
• 38:08
  Philip Pape: Because you said it in a study it reduced cravings.
• 38:10
  James Swanwick: So yeah, I would think.
• 38:11
  James Swanwick: So yeah, cravings.
• 38:11
  James Swanwick: Yeah, for any vice, but I mean, I'm specifically talking about drugs, including alcohol, but it can be for any vice, yeah.
• 38:17
  Philip Pape: What are your thoughts on non-alcoholic options?
• 38:19
  Philip Pape: Because part of my brain says well, they're mimicking alcoholic beverages, with all the packaging and marketing to go with it, but they don't have alcohol.
• 38:27
  Philip Pape: So what are your thoughts on those?
• 38:29
  James Swanwick: I think when someone's trying to rewire their mindset, initially in the first 90 days, three months, and trying to create a long-term mind rewiring, I would invite people to refrain from even drinking alcohol-free alternatives.
• 38:42
  James Swanwick: But once you've got to at least 90 consecutive days alcohol-free and you've successfully rewired your mindset and now you get to have power over alcohol alcohol no longer has power over you that would be the stage where you could start introducing some alcohol-free alternatives.
• 38:56
  James Swanwick: The challenge with drinking alcohol-free alternatives as a direct and immediate substitute for alcohol is that the correlation is still there.
• 39:06
  James Swanwick: And so you know.
• 39:08
  James Swanwick: You go there, say hey, can I get a heineken zero?
• 39:09
  James Swanwick: Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have any.
• 39:10
  James Swanwick: Any heineken zero?
• 39:12
  James Swanwick: Oh, okay, let me have a heineken.
• 39:14
  James Swanwick: And so that association and that correlation is still there again after 90 days, assuming that you have gone through our process, you've rewired your mindset, you now realize that you get to be alcohol-free and that a special occasion is every day that you're alcohol-free.
• 39:30
  James Swanwick: Then you can.
• 39:31
  James Swanwick: I'm okay with that, I'm comfortable with that.
• 39:33
  James Swanwick: But again, I know I'm repeating myself.
• 39:36
  James Swanwick: People can convince themselves oh yeah, I'm just going to drink 0% beers.
• 39:40
  James Swanwick: Well, what happens if there's no 0% beers?
• 39:42
  James Swanwick: What are you going to do.
• 39:44
  Philip Pape: Chances are you're probably going to order a beer and then the slippery slope is very slippery I understand yep, because you're still seeking out something about that experience or taste or flavor that was associated with the alcoholic version of it?
• 39:55
  Philip Pape: yeah, that makes sense, I guess what you know.
• 39:58
  Philip Pape: You work with a lot of people, so what would you say is the biggest in that first phase, that 90-day phase, the biggest thing that people do still struggle with?
• 40:05
  Philip Pape: Maybe it's with the people around them.
• 40:07
  Philip Pape: That's.
• 40:08
  Philip Pape: One thing that comes to mind is just how you deal with your friends and your family, but what do you see?
• 40:14
  James Swanwick: What is the biggest struggle that people have when they're trying to quit?
• 40:18
  James Swanwick: Yes, yeah, it's cultural conditioning.
• 40:20
  James Swanwick: It's not a physical withdrawal.
• 40:24
  James Swanwick: I mean, I know that that's a real thing for a small percentage of the population, like a chemical dependency, but for most people, who might consider themselves a gray area drinker, where they're not deemed bad enough to be an alcoholic uh, but it's bad enough that it's causing consequences, there's no real physical withdrawal.
• 40:43
  James Swanwick: I mean, look again, I'm I'm not a doctor, but it's very much a psychological and habitual challenge that someone has.
• 40:50
  James Swanwick: It's just they're so used to drinking this poison for years and decades and because they're unaware or uneducated or haven't tried an alternative lifestyle, it just seems so challenging and so tough.
• 41:03
  James Swanwick: And again, smiling assassins are everywhere friends, colleagues, staff, everyone.
• 41:07
  James Swanwick: They're all smiling're all smiling.
• 41:08
  James Swanwick: Hey, have a drink.
• 41:08
  James Swanwick: That's never going to stop.
• 41:09
  James Swanwick: It's going to continue for years and decades and even though there is a cultural change happening right now and people are increasingly turning their back on alcohol, it's not going to stop.
• 41:18
  James Swanwick: People still smoke cigarettes today, even though we've known for three decades.
• 41:21
  James Swanwick: That is not good for us, so it's never going to change.
• 41:25
  James Swanwick: So you know, you, we really got to get comfortable being alcohol free not comfortable, but like euphoric, that we're alcohol free and once we are, other people see that and more people get on board.
• 41:36
  James Swanwick: Then our social circle becomes smiling not assassins, but like smiling givers, like that.
• 41:44
  James Swanwick: They're giving joy, they're giving pleasure, they're giving experiences.
• 41:47
  James Swanwick: And we're seeing that so much now, like there's a tidal wave of change happening across the world.
• 41:53
  James Swanwick: Alcohol-free drinks have exploded.
• 41:56
  James Swanwick: In australia, my native country, they have these like sunrise raves now, where there's no alcohol present.
• 42:02
  James Swanwick: People show up an hour before the sun gets up and they have a dj and they start dancing, going crazy, and then they celebrate the sun rising or drug and alcohol free, and then they're going for a swim and a run and they're healthy and they're connecting on a health level and a human level, not on a drug-fueled level.
• 42:20
  James Swanwick: So you know, once people can get over that kind of social kind of obstacle that they're fearing and break through that, wow, then life gets to be just glorious.
• 42:33
  Philip Pape: Do you find that people who then go through that?
• 42:35
  Philip Pape: Is there a correlation with that and a health and fitness lifestyle, or a cause and effect, even?
• 42:42
  James Swanwick: Yeah, I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010 and I spend time with a lot of very healthy people and most of them either don't drink at all or drink sparingly.
• 42:55
  James Swanwick: And, most importantly, alcohol isn't a necessity for social lubricant, you know, or for connection or fun.
• 43:04
  James Swanwick: For example, a staff member of mine who works with me at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, it's his 41st birthday on Monday and we're going out to a Japanese restaurant on Saturday night.
• 43:13
  James Swanwick: I asked him who's coming.
• 43:15
  James Swanwick: He told me and I thought about it.
• 43:16
  James Swanwick: I went okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:18
  James Swanwick: I think there's maybe two out of 12 people who I know will drink and when they drink they won't be drinking excessively.
• 43:24
  James Swanwick: They'll have like a drink or two.
• 43:25
  James Swanwick: But the other 10, 10 out of 12 people don't drink alcohol-free.
• 43:30
  James Swanwick: And I look at them and I go.
• 43:32
  James Swanwick: They're measured, they've got good conscious communication at least they appear to.
• 43:36
  James Swanwick: I mean, who knows what goes on behind closed doors, but they seem like good people.
• 43:40
  James Swanwick: They're good morals, they're not prone to irritability, they're not prone to reacting.
• 43:44
  James Swanwick: They respond versus react.
• 43:48
  James Swanwick: They look good, they're in the gym.
• 43:49
  James Swanwick: I see them working out, they go for walks, they get sunlight.
• 43:52
  James Swanwick: The conversations that I have with them is about nutrition and weight loss and weights and mindset and conscious communication and trying to be the best father or mother and trying to be the best leader and trying to be a great colleague, like that's the kind of conversations that you have, and I always, you know, I often say that how you look on the outside is often a reflection of how you feel about yourself on the inside.
• 44:17
  James Swanwick: And so just a warning you do get better looking when you stop drinking alcohol.
• 44:23
  Philip Pape: That's the selling point, man.
• 44:24
  Philip Pape: That's so good.
• 44:25
  Philip Pape: I mean.
• 44:26
  Philip Pape: This is why I love talking to you guys on, you guys like you on the show, because it is infectious to be around folks like that who share those goals.
• 44:32
  Philip Pape: It made me think, though, because you mentioned you mentioned cigarettes and I I was thinking about, like, the deal makers and people in sales and a lot of the high achievers you probably deal with, who do dinners, lots of dinners, or they go on the golf course or whatever.
• 44:44
  Philip Pape: Is that culture any more challenging, because of just how competitive it is and the deal making and kind of all of that, or is this just a madman fantasy that I have?
• 44:56
  James Swanwick: I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010.
• 44:58
  James Swanwick: I would consider myself a pretty successful businessman.
• 45:01
  James Swanwick: I've done deals, hired people, done joint venture deals, generated millions of dollars in sales across two different businesses.
• 45:11
  James Swanwick: I guess society might say, oh geez, that would be tough for you to do business because you can't entertain clients or you can't do deals, you can't soften people up with a few drinks.
• 45:23
  James Swanwick: I've been doing it 15 years.
• 45:26
  James Swanwick: Things have worked out okay for me.
• 45:28
  James Swanwick: And then this whole idea about the golf buddies and stuff and going to the clubhouse of the 19th hole I get it Like the culture's drinking.
• 45:35
  James Swanwick: Let's go back to the clubhouse, have a couple of beers.
• 45:37
  James Swanwick: Ho, ho, ho, how about that?
• 45:39
  James Swanwick: Like eagle, you shot.
• 45:40
  James Swanwick: Oh geez, that double bogey was a nasty one.
• 45:42
  James Swanwick: Great, have one.
• 45:47
  James Swanwick: Great, have all that friendly banter, but do it while drinking a soda water, ice and a piece of lime doesn't make you any less manly.
• 45:50
  James Swanwick: In fact, it makes you more manly.
• 45:51
  James Swanwick: Because, I'll tell you, drinking alcohol destroys your testosterone levels, especially beer.
• 45:57
  James Swanwick: Beer's got so much estrogen producing crap in it.
• 45:59
  James Swanwick: Men are like oh, beer, the irony, right?
• 46:03
  James Swanwick: The irony is that beer is associated with masculinity and testosterone and yet it's a product that destroys your masculinity and testosterone.
• 46:12
  Philip Pape: And it gives you a big gut to boot over time it gives you a big gut.
• 46:16
  James Swanwick: yeah, a lot of calories.
• 46:18
  James Swanwick: In fact, just on that, can you have a guess on which two alcoholic drinks generally have the most toxins in it in them?
• 46:25
  James Swanwick: Drinks generally have the most toxins in it.
• 46:28
  Philip Pape: In them the most toxins, Mm-hmm, Is it?
• 46:29
  Philip Pape: It's not mixed, some sort of mixed drink?
• 46:32
  Philip Pape: It's?
• 46:33
  James Swanwick: red wine and beer.
• 46:34
  Philip Pape: Okay.
• 46:35
  James Swanwick: Most toxins.
• 46:36
  James Swanwick: The least toxins is tequila.
• 46:40
  Philip Pape: It's also gluten-free.
• 46:40
  Philip Pape: That used to be its selling point, yeah.
• 46:45
  James Swanwick: If you're going to drink tequila and if you're, you know if you're gonna drink that crazy dealer.
• 46:48
  James Swanwick: And if you're, you know if you're gonna drink, drink tequila, that's the least bad for you, right?
• 46:52
  James Swanwick: But worst in terms of toxins.
• 46:54
  James Swanwick: If you measure toxins, red wine and beer yeah, no, because you mentioned the cigarettes.
• 46:59
  Philip Pape: And I know guys who everything they do is health focused, except they'll pull out a cigar, you know, every now and then to celebrate.
• 47:06
  Philip Pape: Right, it's just celebrate, it's just the thing.
• 47:07
  Philip Pape: It's just like with alcohol and the culture, all right, well, is there anything?
• 47:11
  Philip Pape: I know there's a lot we could have covered.
• 47:12
  Philip Pape: I wanted to touch on the main points of why we do this.
• 47:15
  Philip Pape: You gave us a great framework for that initial transformation away, not away from alcohol, but embracing an alcohol-free lifestyle, embracing what it is to be a healthy person.
• 47:26
  Philip Pape: Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish?
• 47:29
  Philip Pape: You want to get out there for the listener.
• 47:31
  James Swanwick: No, I don't think so, other than just a call to arms, so to speak, which is, you know, like culture is going to want to keep you stuck in mediocrity.
• 47:40
  James Swanwick: And in my view and this is my life's work the mediocrity is created through the drift, and the drift is created through consistent, socially acceptable drinking Socially acceptable drinking, but drinking nonetheless and I would just invite you to re-explore your relationship with alcohol.
• 48:00
  James Swanwick: I write about this in my book, which is called Clear.
• 48:02
  James Swanwick: It's available online wherever any books are sold.
• 48:05
  James Swanwick: There's an audible version as well, where you can put me on two speed if you like and get through the book in four hours instead of eight hours at normal speed.
• 48:15
  James Swanwick: And, you know, start to embrace this new identity.
• 48:18
  James Swanwick: Look, I get that.
• 48:19
  James Swanwick: Not drinking is a threat to your current reality and your current identity, and the fear is that who will I be if I'm not a drinker?
• 48:27
  James Swanwick: Who will I be?
• 48:28
  James Swanwick: I won't be the fun guy, I won't be the romantic guy or the girl, I won't be the cool host anymore.
• 48:34
  James Swanwick: This is such an identity threat and I get that.
• 48:37
  James Swanwick: But really, if you explore, what's it giving you, if it's giving you mediocrity, and you're stuck in the drift of life and you're meandering and you're floating and you don't like it and you've got less time on this planet than you've already lived.
• 48:51
  James Swanwick: It's time for a change, and change can feel scary I get that.
• 48:55
  James Swanwick: So I really acknowledge those who take the leap and take the plunge.
• 48:59
  James Swanwick: And if you'd like more details, you can go to alcoholfreelifestylecom slash clear and that'll give you details about the book.
• 49:04
  James Swanwick: Or just go to alcoholfreelifestylecom and there's some details there about our 90 day and year long stop drinking processes.
• 49:10
  James Swanwick: And I'm on Instagram at at James Swanwick lots of free tips and tricks.
• 49:14
  James Swanwick: And we've got a podcast as well Alcohol-Free Lifestyle.
• 49:16
  James Swanwick: You can dig into that a lot deeper as well.
• 49:19
  Philip Pape: All right, so I'm definitely going to include all of those in.
• 49:21
  Philip Pape: By the way, if you're Amazon Unlimited which I am you can get the book for free.
• 49:25
  Philip Pape: Um, hopefully you get a cut of that, even those.
• 49:27
  Philip Pape: I don't know how that works, but, uh, the the book clear your Instagram and also the podcast.
• 49:34
  Philip Pape: We'll include all those in the show notes.
• 49:35
  Philip Pape: And if you are looking to take the leap and get out of the mediocrity and the drifting through life, uh, this is the way to do it.
• 49:41
  Philip Pape: Thank you so much, james, for coming on the show.
• 49:43
  James Swanwick: Philip, thank you so much for having me.
• 49:45
  James Swanwick: I appreciate it.