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The Physical World Behind Our Digital Lives · Responsibly Different™

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Responsibly Human, a responsibly different podcast from Campfire Consulting.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: We live in a world getting remarkably good at finding patterns in human behavior, but understanding people is something different.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: On this show, we talk with researchers, technologists, marketers, creators, and leaders about what actually moves us, earns our trust, and makes us feel known instead of simply seen.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: And as more of our world becomes automated, one question keeps getting more important.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: What does technology still miss?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Before we get into it, one small way you can support more thoughtful work is by hitting subscribe.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: That simple act helps this show reach more people who are trying to build businesses, communities, and a world that works a little better for all of us.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: If something you hear in these conversations helps someone else think differently or do their work differently, that's the whole point.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Chris Marine, founder and CEO of Campfire Consulting, and this is responsible.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the thing: whether you've ever thought about a data center or not, you depend on them every day.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: That photo you just took on your phone has to be stored somewhere.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: So does this podcast, so do your medical records, the things you save to the cloud, the shows you stream, and so much of the digital infrastructure we've built our everyday lives around.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: None of it actually lives in the clouds.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: It has a physical home.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think any change you want to make in the world starts by being curious enough, and sometimes bold enough to actually have a conversation about the things that are complicated.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I wanted to have this one.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't an episode about deciding whether data centers are good or bad.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's plenty of public debate happening around that already.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to better understand what it actually takes to build the physical infrastructure behind the technology age we're living through, the decisions that go into doing it responsibly, and the humans who ultimately have to make those decisions.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: My guest is JD Lambert, Director of Sustainable Practices at Rowan Digital Infrastructure.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Her path to this work is fascinating in its own right.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: She grew up in South Florida with the Everglades in her backyard and Hurricane Andrew shaping how she thought about the places we inhabit.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: She began her career in design, including time with Walt Disney Imagineering, moved into architecture and sustainability, and today is helping think through how some of the most complex infrastructure projects being built can respond to the environments and communities around them.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about the physical footprint behind our digital lives, embodied carbon, energy and water, the trade-offs that come with trying to build responsibly at incredible speed, and why data alone can't tell us what the right decision is.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: We also get into something I hadn't really considered before this conversation.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe part of why data centers have become so contentious is because they become a physical representation of something much bigger.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Our hopes, questions, and fears about where technology and AI are taking us.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than talking past each other, let's get curious about it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my conversation with JD Lambert.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, JD, before we get into data centers and AI, I want to start with you.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was super interested looking over your background because I'm seeing things like you started your career interning at the Walt Disney Company, you're into architecture and sustainability.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: How do you go from the many different backgrounds that you've had to designing spaces for people that originally drew you into the work?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: One I don't often contemplate.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in prepping for this, you know, trying to figure out like, how did I get here?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I grew up in South Florida.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I at a very early age, I can remember in elementary school, as early as that, um, learning about ecosystems.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we had the Everglades right there.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, you know, right in our backyard.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Hurricane Andrew really affected, you know, building construction in South Florida.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I was influenced really early on about just the space that we inhabit, how space affects us uh and keeps us safe.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and coming from that background, growing up there, uh, you know, I I love the environment.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I loved environmental science.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was also an artist.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I've I you know started to try to figure out how to merge these things, these passions.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I started out my career as a graphic designer.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I ended up at the Walt Disney Imagineering.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned firsthand, you know, how space makes us feel.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like that is like the quintessential place where you go to like feel happy.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um but that ultimately I I you know graduated in a time that was tough 20 years ago, things happening economically.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so like a lot of my peers went to grad school.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I said, okay, I'm gonna merge these things.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna study architecture.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I got my Master of Architecture from RIT with a program, the first program of its kind, uh, with the sustainability um housing the sustainability institute at RIT.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was the first cohort to graduate through that uh program.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So sustainability was like integrated.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: There is no architecture and then sustainability.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: There is or like, you know, um sustainable architecture is is really just architecture, it's just design, designing within a context.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the long story of how I got to where I am.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, was there something that sparked your interest going from thinking about designing places for people versus places like data centers that have a large impact on people, but not necessarily a place that most of us will ever step foot into?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know that's um that's a great question, especially for a lot of folks who, you know, when we spend as humans, 90% of our lives in in a building, you know, they're yeah.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um but for me, um I love the technical aspect.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so in studying architecture and going out into practice, I love working in lab buildings, hospitals.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: These are some of our like highest energy use type building type uh, you know, besides data centers.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there was a criticality to them, you know, as far as infrastructure and just their their end use um and how designing those spaces helped people physically do their jobs.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the same thing from data centers, they're very highly technical buildings.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh a really exciting typology to be involved in.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like you said, they're not something that most folks understand, but it is part of our critical infrastructure.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of, you know, uh you go to if you interact with, you know, your smartphone or social media or hospitals and like, you know, medical you go to the doctor, like a lot of these systems work together, uh like with data.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: We use data centers at least.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that's an interesting part to zoom out and think about and why I'm so excited that you're here talking with us about this from your architectural background, because it's like these places have a have a very physical footprint.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, it's like we were just talking before we hit record here that this recording is going to go live in the cloud.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like those are all going to a place that is getting more traction now in the news of like what where all this lives.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I mean, from where you sit, what do you wish more people understood about that physical infrastructure behind all of our digital lives?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just because everything we do is leaving a digital cookie trail and it's living somewhere.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so what I wish more people understood is these are highly efficient, like some of the most energy efficient, water efficient buildings you will ever encounter.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they are also driving uh some of the technologies to improve efficiencies and include decarbonization.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so for me, for example, because like there's so much attention and so much, um, so many resources at um involved in data centers right now, uh, we're able to drive decarbonization of the things I can control.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I like, I take that ecosystem approach and I apply it to my projects and uh you know, the systems that I'm interacting with.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: So with data centers, and I mentioned they're like, you know, some of the most energy efficient, water efficient projects that are out there, uh building types that are pushing the market because of all of this infrastructure that's going into place, and it's infrastructure that we need as we like continue to digitize, you know, our our our lives, um that there's an opportunity, a huge opportunity uh for decarbonizing a lot of different building parts, different materials, for example.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever we as Rowan go into a community and um we're gonna, you know, we're assessing what's the the low carbon material availability in that market.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: How can we continue to drive that?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: What are ways that what are the some of the decisions we can make and decisions we make really early uh in the design phase so that we can make sure we're bringing like one of the, you know, driving that embodied carbon reduction, all the things that we have control over early on.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I wish people understood.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a there's a lot of things that we're we're taking this opportunity and and um the the funding and the investment um to drive decarbonization as much as possible.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you hit on something interesting there too, uh uh thinking about when is the best time that you are able to think about the influence of the long-term impact.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: You said early on, like how early on between when you guys hear, hey, we're gonna be building something to when it gets developed, is that block number one that you start thinking about?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or where's the most influential place for you to start having those conversations?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: We so uh we're lucky.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I can't say it speak for every developer who does data centers, but Rowan is lucky because we can see the full life cycle, full project lifecycle from site origination all the way through facility operations.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we own um that asset, own and operate um for a long time, for decades.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we have that long-term visibility.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna I'm gonna focus on that aspect.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a different set of you know, rules and controls that you have when you're a developer cell model.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: But for us, we we have a lot of considerations um going into that.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And for us at sighting, right?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: At a at sighting, we're starting to think about um energy use, water use, uh, like how we fit into the broader context of the given site.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're also looking at climate risk assessments and seeing what are some of the things we need to understand about that that site context to inform the design.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um a lot of folks see these buildings as big boxes, and yes, they are boxes, they're big rectangles.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're not like it's not something that you can just like stamp into place.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, every all of this infrastructure still needs to exist in the physical world.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes people navigating those things.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: It takes people going out and drilling and finding out what's going on underneath, understanding, you know, underground utilities that you may have, you know, finding stuff underground that you didn't know was gonna be there.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's why and for me, starting my career out in architecture was incredible, an incredible like education because um architecture gave me a process by which to take big ideas, uh, bring big ideas to life.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um that process orientation, not necessarily like outcome, I mean I think about the outcome as well, but having a process to go by is really helpful in this context because sometimes you don't know what you don't know until you get to a certain point.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: But um architecture has a very clearly defined process for you to be able to intake new information uh and especially at a the speed at which we're we're building and designing these these these uh this infrastructure, being able to rely on that process uh has been really helpful.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So short answer, as early as possible.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and you touched on it a little bit of what goes into deciding where these do get built.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: But is there are there one or a few things in particular that as folks looking at the site are getting there, doing the things like you mentioned, drilling that you're looking specifically at from the architectural and design standpoint of these infrastructures that are key signals of this is or this isn't a good place for this to be?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, by the time it gets to you doing the architecture, do you have much say?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, absolutely.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um Rowan speed uh comes from uh starting with sites that already have power, approvals.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it leaves us a lot of uh a bandwidth to be able to coordinate with those communities at a local level.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's still a lot of analysis that we do as part of those early due diligence, early design phases.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oftentimes we're doing life cycle assessments for every single one of our projects.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not just doing like a design lifecycle assessment and saying check done.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: We do two LCAs at a minimum.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we do them in the uh design phase so that it can inform decisions made uh through through the design process.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then we do them at the end of construction with actual material quantities, actual product-specific EPDs that we obtain through procurement for accountability.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this like design information part of it, and then there's the make sure you do what you say you're gonna do, and like you get that accountability piece.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's just life cycle assessment, embodied carbon, like that's that materials aspect of it, the physical impacts.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And for those who are not familiar with embodied carbon, I want you to think of it as like uh Yeah, I was gonna ask for you to go deeper there.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So embodied carbon uh refers to the emissions associated with the harvesting, uh, transportation, manufacturing of a given material, given product, building product.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you can think of that as like uh from uh some folks call it cradle to gate, uh as in like from like the earth or wherever you get it material uh through when it leaves the gate of the manufacturing plant.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like that that amount of information.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh it's for you know, we'll look at concrete, steel, rigid insulations.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: These are some of our biggest material impact categories when it comes to the embodied carbon.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's the first carbon impacts, the first place we have control over when it comes to any building.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in data centers, that's where I'm trying to focus a lot of our reductions.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm gonna zoom out for a minute and and hope this helps also set into context.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: But buildings, the building design uh buildings and construction um account for almost 40% of global carbon emissions.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: A third of that amount is embodied carbon.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I have kind of set out to say, okay, I'm gonna focus on the thing I can control right now.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um that that third of those emissions, um, about 11%.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you do that?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when you're weighing everything you just mentioned from materials, energy, water, carbon, biodiversity, availability, then you also mentioned speed.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like how do you make decisions when improving one thing could potentially create a trade-off somewhere else?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's challenging at times, especially with the speed component.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because sometimes we uh want to have the information to make the best informed decision uh at speed.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, that's that's one of those uh friction points.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um so because we are doing this a few different times, I try to gleam what what are commonalities like so we know for a fact that concrete, steel, rigid insulation are gonna be my three biggest impact categories.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things I can do there?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Concrete and steel account for usually over 70% of you know of the embodied carbon emissions for these these projects of the of the area that I control.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not talking about the uh interior uh materials or the um like racks and things like that.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of our our tenet.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll make that clear distinction.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: But for the things that from the built, um, from the the building, um, what I'm controlling and within within the US, uh the way that we measure that, uh actually globally, but in the US, is really taken off um environmental product declarations, otherwise known as EPDs.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is kind of like your nutrition label for materials.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh the embodied carbon impacts are measured in by the global warming potential value that you'll see on EPDs.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And manufacturers will have EPDs for their products available on their websites typically.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you just search for X manufacturer and uh you know EPD, chances are you'll find an EPD for that product or their products.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, so I'm we're leveraging our relationships with manufacturers, uh local entities to drive reductions in these in these materials, which if you zoom out a little bit further from just our project, it's actually helping that market, you know, improve the availability of low carbon products.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a I know there's a lot.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot there.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that you touched on though was how much changes based on the locations of these centers.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: How much do you think should change in the designs based on where these are being built?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it there's a a couple things that will come into play.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the availability of low-carbon products in a given market.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So from when I start a project to when we're actually building and pouring and things like that, um, how fast we can get in front of those manufacturers to drive the technologies, um, to you know, drive those reductions or implement new technologies to do that.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're also performing, as I mentioned, I think, uh, energy modeling on all of our projects, uh, all the data centers, so that we can leverage trade-offs between the architecture uh and the mechanical lighting systems.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and your architecture is going to be responsive to a given climate.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you look at your uh building energy codes, um, and you'll see that you know different climate zones across the country are are going to have different requirements for your envelope and and and systems.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh what we'll do is use energy modeling to find the best trade-off between that to have the highest performing product at the end of the day.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so so that's um some so I don't think you can just stamp a building into like a different place, like one building from Ohio won't work in, you know, Texas, you know, that kind of thing.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have there's there's there is a part that uh of an adaptability that needs to occur at each of those those sites for the right.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I would imagine that's the that's the context that when we first spoke, uh ahead of this a couple weeks ago and you're talking about um responsible design as it responsive context.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's the context.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean there's there's di you know you have to be when you're designing within a for a given context, for me it's multidimensional because I'm not just looking at the plan.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at what's happening within the context of the community, within what's required by code, doing better than that wherever we can.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at the availability of those low carbon products.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at what can what matters to the community.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking at uh like how much time we have for construction because there's a friction sometimes when it comes to uh especially for concrete for those who work in concrete or in body carbon will know this um concrete uh is one of those where for the cast in place side of things um you can extend the curing time for concrete you know it's typically 28 days you can extend it to 56 et cetera um but because of speed we don't always have the ability to extend that um and I'll say the reason why we would look at extending the that that time for concrete is because we can uh manipulate more of how much cement content is in concrete cement accounts for 90% of the embodied carbon impacts in concrete which is why we'll see so many um materials that are trying to replace cement so uh you know your slag your fly ash um glass powslins in our case we've also started um testing out a material called Prometheus materials they have a ProZero uh microalgae cement replacement which is pretty neat so we're trying we're trying different things um to be able to continue to drive that uh and it helps that we can do so as part of our investments um in those communities uh pushing those technologies um testing them out because sometimes uh I don't know if you know this about construction but like trying new there's a lot of inertia trying new things that are unproven you know that don't have like a like a known track record there they're very much like tried and true.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well and that's where one of one of the questions that I had was around like is there such a thing as a perfect sustainable solution and understanding like we're B Corp or 1% for the planet so we are a business that's always about it's really about the journey.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: There isn't anything that's perfect.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like that's what your system that you're bringing into your work is about.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's not great.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: There are things we're exploring we're vetting ways to make it better.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd imagine there isn't anything and this is totally a leading question but imagine there isn't anything based on what you're saying in the design process that's like really the perfect sustainable solution right now I think being able to go through a process and uh holistically that's like really key not just taking uh like a myopic view of things, but being able to look at the big picture, think more holistically about how um different decisions interact uh with um other decisions that you're trying to make um and and solve that problem uh again more holistically uh is gonna be part of I mean part of what we're we're doing and and I think the industry at large is also trying to do.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's I think as we kind of that was really interesting on the design side as we kind of not completely leave the design conversation.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: What we're really interested with this series of Responsible Human is around how data and everything that we have today is helping people across their work or or not helping them in some cases.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: So just interested in your work what is data or can data modeling and technology help you understand today that would have been much harder to understand two, three, five, 10 years ago?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well so with regards to our impact on the environment having more information I think you know 10 10 plus years ago um we thought okay let's get more information let's keep trying uh um but the thing is more information date more data doesn't always equate to like oh we have we're gonna be able to solve this problem now that doesn't I mean there's a lot of things already in place for us that we can utilize like and we should be utilizing from low-cost, you know, efficiency measures, long-term thinking, life cycle thinking these are things that have been around for a while.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So but I they're not necessarily as uh flashy I'll say you know I mean that's a thing and that's one of the things I that I was going to ask is I know in our line of work data can sometimes create a false sense when there is an objectively correct answer.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is there it sounds like you're echoing a similar sentiment in your work.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean data is only a step in the process the information gathering uh is only a step in the process um it takes a human uh to interpret create meaning um and ultimately action it you know uh and being in that way thinking holistically thinking in systems uh and having that you know ability to collaborate with other other people and and other perspectives um so yeah I can you contextualize that a little bit for us like what is uh a a story when that experience or context of human judgment comes into place I'm not sure if that's something you're just getting off the plane less than 12 hours ago from a site visit.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it those kind of interactions though where it's like those those human elements really do make the difference when you're in this work?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I think so um especially when it comes to the fact that uh technology will take us so far um being able to work with folks who have been in this industry for a long time leverage expertise and like uh navigating problems um I'll say for example again I was just on site uh so being knowing that this is whatever we create in a in our computer for example uh in our designs and um it needs to make its way into the physical world like it needs to have a a constructability aspect.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to um and so I have found that uh having that experience uh as a as a designer from my my years in architecture uh the first year and some that you're in architecture school at least for me it was we didn't touch the computer because we still think outside of the computer we still think with our hands um we have to be able to get uh information out of the brain into like an action um so I don't know if that answers your question is that still the case today I'm just curious I think so that's I mean it's been like a while but I love that if it is we need to do a full like figure that out like that's you need to talk someone who's going like actually in our sexual school I would I would really hope so.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Actually a funny story so you mentioned you know my early like intern at Walt Disney Imagineering I'm a big Disney fan so obviously just so you have context of why that like lit up for me there's there's context for you.
• 29:53
  unknown: Perfect.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well so you know Walt Disney Imagineering these were Walt Disney's design engineers right so they brought big ideas to life and um I remember so vividly the one like a lot of takeaways but the main takeaways um towards one of the entrances there was this clear box um and inside of it were drafting materials papers you know triangles and like like all rulers uh T-square all this stuff and um above it was a hammer and a sign that read break in case of emergency so like everything's digitized but um that that was always one of those things I was like yeah I guess if like you know I need to be able to think through this right like we need if I don't have my phone in front of me if I don't have my computer like I still need to be able to like interpret, absorb the information, interpret action, you know.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Can you ever imagine I mean that's such a great story.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you shared that hey like as a Disney nerd I'm really glad you shared that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love hearing behind the scenes stories.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean as AI becomes more sophisticated and I feel like at every rollout of a new model of AI, they're always showing like design sketches and things.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine it eventually taking over some of the design or sustainability decisions autonomously?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Don't know and I thought um I'm really glad you asked that because I think I think there's still going to be that that human element that needs to take what's been provided, actually apply it.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now there can be a lot of really amazing I mean there's some AI up there I've seen that can uh contextualize a parking or uh manipulate a design based off of uh how many parking spaces and how much you know orientation things like that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: That saves a lot of time, you know, I don't necessarily need to plan out every single parking space like time investment wise into um and output.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: But as the human I really should be able to understand you know when something is wrong.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it takes the experience of like doing it the hard way, doing it the um analog way to be able to understand what happens after AI's done its thing, um, what information it's giving to you and where something is incorrect.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't think I think there still needs to be that human element because the human is ultimately going to be responsible for whatever gets built.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna be able to say oh AI did XYZ like as as architects, engineers, these are licensed professionals they're gonna want to make sure I think that's important for anyone using AI.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like and that's something everyone has to own.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's always going there's always needs to be accountability.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: So whether or not people can go all gun ho into AI and all this, but my personal opinion is similar.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like at the end of the day, someone is on the other side of that directing it instructing it it has to come back to a person.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're the ones making the decision we're the ones making decisions.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um all right so there's one part that I wanted to touch on because it is kind of an elephant in this uh greater conversation just that there's obviously a lot of public concern around data centers whether that's the energy water land use infrastructure overall environmental footprint when communities raise those concerns are there things that developers can learn from them yes I I I really enjoy I appreciate um hearing from the communities and uh Ro and I mentioned you know we have an entire team that goes into the communities.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: We believe that trust is earned before a project is approved through um commitments that people can hold us to.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why whenever we're we're going out with these big claims for embodied carbon reduction, for um clean energy, um we're we want to be able to follow up with this is what we promised and here's what we did.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I appreciate being able to hear from the local community what matters to them and how are ways that I can I like what are decisions I can make within my control areas, you know sphere of control, um, to to help them uh to help you know solve some of these problems.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm I I think we're at Rowan and and and our team we're all very interested in in that.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And from and I mean I think you just have such an interesting vantage point of this and you've done such a good job of sharing like what's misunderstood about building these but what does meaningful community engagement look like for you sitting from like we're from from your perch of kind of helping architect this whole thing?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I will say that um while my control, my area of control um is within like the project boundary in Word for the most part um I look at it from a few different levels.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh from the biodiversity what I can punch up within my sphere of control within that boundary um that has implications beyond.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: So in some cases for us we're looking at uh improving biodiversity 100% uh native or uh you know planting species um uh little to no irrigation um or you know beyond um the implantation period um or establishment period um and then uh also looking at like bees looking at honey bees and bat boxes and things on our site so that from like an ecosystem perspective um from the community uh things that matter ways that we can bring clean energy to other parts of a of a community um in one case uh we're looking at uh uh a solar array ground mounted for an elementary school so we're working through an MOU right now with that um uh and for us it it it brings um brings a focus to the importance of renewable energy uh and and you know clean energy and and how these systems ultimately work together like these are these would be these are all local uh strategies local um actions uh that we can see we can see at the end of the day is like that's created an impact a positive impact um at the same time I mentioned a lot about the a good design being responsive uh to the context uh for us that means you know when a community is concerned with uh water use uh we take that very seriously we we understand those um impacts as part of our early site due diligence and climate risk assessments um but for example um in our uh Texas projects uh we're not using evaporative cooling so it's it's a very low water use cooling technology um it's a closed loop uh air to air chilled system um it recirculates water for the life of the system which is 10 to 15 years and that that means we're not we're not pulling you know any we're we're we're we're we're making sure that we are using as little water as possible to to use what um to do what we need to do for the you know serve our our customers and and the building but that's responsive because in that context in these parts of Texas water is very water is a stressed resource.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to be responsible with that solution that would be it would be irresponsible to do the opposite.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean in regard in and responsibility is something that I think is a good thread to pull on to this next area that I'm interested in, which is I mean, with demand for AI and digital infrastructure moving so quickly we've talked about hit on speed through the design process part of the conversation do you think that speed of that growth makes responsible development harder or can it actually accelerate better technology and better solutions because of the amount of demand for this technology?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can it be both?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: It makes it harder that's a thing.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it doesn't need to be yeah just because it's like hard doesn't mean I'm not gonna do it.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah just because so it's gonna be hard but I mean it at the end of the day, yes, it's gonna it's we're so when we have these they're large facilities, we're going to leverage our buying power to procure low carbon materials meaning I'm I am a customer requiring low carbon materials disclosures for your products in that market I'm gonna use that buying power to drive the procurement and and and further development of low carbon products in that market.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's there's a you know use your disadvantage to your advantage in a way at that yeah at that scale can something though become more efficient while its footprint continues to grow?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes as we continue to find information uh learn about new technologies um you know our our first couple our first buildings were um delivered this year and the technology is constantly evolving so we're able to take information uh technologies and an assessment and analysis from a few years ago that have improved to find more efficiencies to do more with what we have uh at our projects um you know in some cases uh that leads to uh improved energy efficiencies water efficiencies like utilization um that sort of thing um but yeah there's there's there's ways there's ways as as you continue to develop and because of that the speed um and I mentioned data centers are some of the most energy efficient most most efficient buildings you ever see and there's um huge need and push for the continued uh uh evolution of improved efficiencies so there's a lot of um investment and and capital behind behind that um technology as well what do you think people need to be more comfortable talking about around this it's such this I mean there's so many people for it like there was one that was about to be built in an old paper mill where I'm I'm in Maine and it it got some bad press but there's also a whole side of it so it's like that area needs jobs like that area needs something to since the paper industry is going down it does need something up there.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like so there's so many pros there's so many cons and I it feels like and this is totally a personal thing judgment but it feels like people just talk past each other whenever the topic of data centers come up so it's like is it what is it that we're all missing?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I think a lot of it you're addressing already which is that's like these are some of the most efficient building structures you can make.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what but is there something else that we just have to get comfortable about being uncomfortable about talking through?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think it what's tough sometimes is uh there's a lot of um a lot of fear around AI.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's technology it's um it's uh a lot of other things that I won't I won't get into here but sometimes these data centers can become the um physical manifestation of those fears.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting point.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you're right it's not like these aren't just housing data for AI but you're absolutely right they are 100% in every news clip it's relayed directly to AI.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very good point.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's it will be whatever that's worth we live in the physical world I I will always um uh take the human part of this um it is so important not to lose that aspect um but yeah we it's there's there's that there's that piece um physical manifestation um but I think uh we have because of no understanding that um it is also a I want to be um considerate this is a these are very highly technical buildings like building types um understanding even just at a base level how architecture and design and construction and how all these things work like that's like at a baseline then you get into the fact that these are like these are buildings designed to keep machines happy not necessarily humans machines um and they're beasts you know um how big like how what's the average like project scale um I don't know I a few hundred thousand square feet but I don't know like how we get into that because it just really depend it really depends yeah uh on this on the like um design and but their their footprint is pretty large and they're also they're usually single story buildings it can be two sometimes three but usually single story um uh but yeah it just um their their footprint is is is pretty large but I would say one of the things I would love for folks to get comfortable talking about and understanding is there's a way to do this responsibly.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's um and and looking looking at more of those Uh examples out there from entities like ourselves who are trying to do this in the most responsible way possible.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh appropriate setbacks, shielding from our neighbors.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, we because again, we have that long-term view, long-term perspective, uh we also are gonna be there for a while and we wanna be good neighbors.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: So uh there are there are entities out there that are trying to do this responsibly, uh and sometimes with you know with everything else that you know in the world, um data centers, you can get bucketed in with uh with other folks who may not share those values.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh when you get people from energy, infrastructure, technology design, sustainability um into the same room.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you seeing genuine alignment right now?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: We have all the resources we have so many resources at our disposal to like start to like to do this the right way.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I it and it takes I mean it takes a lot of different folks working from different angles to be able to do this holistically uh uh better, but there's already so many tools at our disposal.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um LCAs, energy modeling, uh climate analysis, uh, you know, um if you're into it, you're you know, building rating systems are a great, you know, framework.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so many frameworks, there's so many tools already at our disposal.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh the triple bottom line is a coin termed um in like the 90s.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like bring that to like your forefront of how you're making decisions.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um can you for people that don't I know the triple bottom line, can you go into triple bottom line for people who might not know?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um uh the triple bottom line is a term uh that came from uh John Elkington, I believe it was '94, 1994.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um that encompasses uh that it's not just about the financial or profit as that like bottom line.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: You for a really complete solution, uh you need to uh consider the environment and people.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: So people, profit, and planet, however you want it's like it's all different frameworks, like however you want to s however you want to slice it.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's really looking at it from it's not just about the profit-driven piece because it's profit's important.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's also looking at the environment impacts or um and and social impacts.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for Claire.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's always uh it's a it's important, I think, for everyone, no matter what industry they're in, to have that framework.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um what gives you as we kind of round out here, what what gives you optimism about where your industry is heading?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Optimism.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of optimism.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I it's so important.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: We all need optimism.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I like to end people on a high here, you know.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: We all need optimism.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I really enjoy the people that I'm working with from not only within Rowan, but our community partners, um, with our consultant teams and design teams.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um sustainability is a one of the big reasons that people come to work at Rowan.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I love that passion.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really great to be able to see that.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I just mentioned I was I came off of a job site.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is a job site where uh we it was a brownfield, um, and um had some remediation.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we had community garden or like a garden on site, and the any excess vegetables and stuff that were like built like taken from that that fetch that garden um was put into a place where the workers could take its stuff home, like food home.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's nice.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're composting on our job sites and we're taking that comp uh, there's a company, local company that takes the compost and gives us uh really healthy, rich soil at the end of it, you know, so that we can use it in our gardens and creating that circularity, you know, on our job sites.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I you know, I'm I'm really stoked about the fact that we already have so many of these tools available to us.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to do it, like action it, get it out there.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's what that's what I get excited about.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's what excites me about the work that I do and um continuing to to put this out there and put that message out there.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it and I particularly loved the the framing of this whole conversation with you, and really because it started with your background and from someone that grew up in Florida, impacted by environmental events like Hurricane Andrew, I I can see connecting the dots better about what brought you to this work.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it's important for people to have a voice, a face to this work to understand that there are humans and people behind this putting a lot of care into a very sensitive topic that will and does have a great impact on people's lives.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you for that.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And before we roll off though, I we always end this series with a question, a similar version of the same question, which is as technology becomes more capable and more embedded in the physical world around us, what's something humans can do that an algorithm uh simply can't?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um an algorithm's gonna give you information, that data piece.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it takes a human to create meaning from that and action it.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Bring it to life.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna always take a human to do that, and so I love that.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for joining us.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was a really interesting, important conversation to have, and just appreciate you.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: We could I have so many more questions, as you know.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: So just appreciate we got through a lot, so appreciate you being so open about everything.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Especially coming off of a field uh site visit.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: So appreciate you waking up with us here.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: This was a really great conversation, and you know, I'm really love the content that you put out there.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for having me.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things JD said in this conversation that has really stuck with me is that data is only one step in the process.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: We can gather more information, we can build better models, AI can help us process things faster than we ever could before.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: But information still needs someone to interpret it, give it meaning, and decide what to actually do with it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, someone has to be accountable for that decision.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's especially important in a conversation like this because data centers can so easily become another issue where we sort ourselves into being either for them or against them.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality, JD describes, is a lot more complicated.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: There are trade-offs, there are communities involved, there are environmental considerations, economic considerations, and technologies that are changing almost as quickly as these facilities can be built.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: That complexity isn't a reason to avoid the conversation, it's the reason to have it.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because the digital world we become dependent on has a physical footprint.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're going to keep asking more of technology, I think it's fair and necessary to keep asking better questions about what it takes to support it, who is making those decisions, and how responsibly we're doing it.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's the most responsibly human idea in this entire conversation.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: The algorithm can give us information.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: Humans still have to decide what we do with it.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: This has been Responsibly Human, a responsibly different podcast from Campfire Consulting.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: At Campfire, we believe data can tell us a lot about people.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: But building brands people actually connect with still takes curiosity, judgment, empathy, and a willingness to see the person behind the pattern.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation gave you something worth thinking about, subscribe and share it with someone else doing the work that could benefit from it.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Every listen, follow, and share helps these ideas reach more people trying to make business, media, and culture a little more human.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Responsibly Human is hosted by me, Chris Maureen, with Pip Colmar and Kaylee Elwell helping shape and produce the series.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, our cover art was made by actual humans, illustrated by our friends and narrative.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep making room for what can't be measured.