Latest / Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour / The first stage. Recognition

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The first stage. Recognition · Inside The Consulting Room - Understanding the Child Behind the Behaviour

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is Kim Lee, child and adolescent psychotherapist.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this episode is entitled Recognition.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is the first of the remaining three episodes that are concerned with the recovery from abusive relationships in all of their forms.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really want to keep reminding people what that term actually means, but I will dip in and out just to just to clarify things.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is a largely unscripted podcast because this is something that I spend so much time professionally working on and with people who are very often not yet even in recovery, that it's a subject that I have really become extremely familiar with, sadly.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was never my intention to work in this area to such an extent.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose because I come into contact with so many families where there are obvious family difficulties, I do somewhat inevitably come into contact with families where abuse, domestic abuse is a key factor.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the effect upon children is often devastating.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it may very well be that the symptoms that the child is demonstrating are actually as a direct consequence of the domestic abuse, and this is of great concern.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: It takes us into the area of safeguarding and a whole host of other things.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I've developed a model which I suppose is applicable really in not just domestic abuse situations, but in terms of the concept of recovery, which I suppose really suggests that somebody has arrived at a point where they can no longer manage.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: They don't necessarily know how they got there, they don't know what sense to make of it.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: All they know is that they're suffering.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so we walk through different stages, not in a particularly structured way, but in a kind of intentional way that starts with recognition and concludes with recovery.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to focus in this episode on that first stage, but not without saying that having done so many podcasts on this subject, I've now come to realise that perhaps a really good way of helping those people who are really struggling would be to run an online group which people can attend anonymously.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And to run it initially is a four-part, a four-part course followed by the therapeutic work that normally follows on.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: People can be anonymous, they don't have to have their cameras switched on, they can use whichever names they prefer so that they're not identifiable.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this is vitally important.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is for women and and and mothers, and uh the fact that it's being facilitated by a man may be somewhat novel, but a man who is very, very experienced in these things.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Those details are going to be available on my website soon, and I'm looking to start in uh in September.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: My website, the children's consultancy.com, will have all of the downloadable details when they're ready.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I'll be giving updates on my Facebook page, directing people there.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now this is really the course and these podcasts are really for people who are emerging from abusive relationships.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is that when a person is inside a relationship of this kind, they can't they can't see it clearly.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And although people on the outside may very well identify it and comment on it, the person on the inside is in a state where their understanding of relational reality is severely compromised and contaminated.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that word contamination is very, very telling because it is as if something highly toxic and clearly not good for you has been internalized and then starts to completely distort your perceptions, your sense of yourself and your actions.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And quite often you you you may have found yourself asking the question, what is happening?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and is this is this behavior normal?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is this situation normal?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: You may find yourself accept listening to and accepting outrageous and grandiose statements from the person responsible.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: You may hear them being disproportionately critical of others, as well as yourself, and intolerant to anything which questions their perceptions of how things should be.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Such people tend to be rather opinionated.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, they can also present as considerate and thoughtful, and they can be helpful.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: It just tends to be on their terms and it tends to be outside of the relationship.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes these people are really impressive, but that's on the outside.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: But all of these things are really the recognizable strands of the manipulator.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you may have found yourself going to extraordinary lengths to support, help, and please such people, only to receive nothing in return, not even a simple thank you in some instances.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And from the outside, you know, if you were to tell that to people, they would be appalled at that kind of treatment and they would describe it as disgusting, and I mean these are words I've I've heard putrid and diabolical.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And these are terms that I am quoting, and they are they are used to describe the behavior, what the behavior of what I call the other.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I use that term because it's hard to see that these people are individuals who have anything worthwhile to offer to those who are reasonable, healthy human beings.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that probably sounds judgmental.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I suppose that countless cases have brought me to the same conclusion.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose you could say that everybody deserves a second chance, except that the people I'm talking about thrive on second chances.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because rather than taking notice and developing humility and taking responsible, it's more like they're going to experience this as another win.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's all part of the manipulation.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And if you confront them, they will rationalize, villainize, reject, complain, distort what you're describing, because this is part of their narrative.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one that's shaped by whatever, or rather, it's reacted to in that way, because any kind of healthy confrontation is experienced by them as an attack.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: When in fact it probably isn't an attack, it's more likely to be a plea for something healthy.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this very probably has its roots in repeated clinical, sorry, repeated critical parenting when they were children.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is understandable and we can make sense of it, but that was then and this is now, and explanations are not excuses.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And such people tend to be highly articulate, they know the words, it's just that they don't live by the meanings.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And this is repeatedly evident through incongruence between words and actions.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like to use terms like, you know, a person is a lost cause, but unfortunately, with people like this, their relational patterns uh earn that title.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, these are helpful observations because these frequently recognized relational cycles always have a history, and such people will very often leave a trail of victims behind them.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: They will complain that people leave them, abandon them, ignore them, shun them, or that everybody is in some way at odds with them and is critical.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a this is uh the victim uh behavior that becomes uh a usual pattern, and it becomes patently obvious to the observers that this is this is something which indicates that the person who is complaining is actually the common denominator in all of these experiences.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, such people don't change spontaneously if they ever change at all.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I said that these were helpful observations, they're not helpful to the other person because they would just simply activate the sort of truth reframing defenses.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: But this podcast and the others isn't for them, and they probably wouldn't listen to it anyway.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's helpful for the victims because it begins the process of removing the sense of personal responsibility the victims feel.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's in some way ironically comforting to know that it wasn't your fault.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: This was about the other, it was never about you, and this is the beginning of recognition.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when I use this term, I'm describing a process or a stage in the process, which is actually often quite distressing.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: It can be propa profoundly painful, and for some it can be humiliating to recall the events, to remember the fine details, to now see the illusion, the broken promises, the deception, the lies, the concealment, and the manipulation of the truth, the reframing of events, the complete absence of awareness of you, the recognition of you, your worth, your needs.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes these relationships start with dazzling displays of love bombing.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: But as these things surface into consciousness, we realize that we may have lost a significant part of ourselves, a significant amount of time.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: We've allowed ourselves to be deceived.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: We remember how we rationalized the events that took place.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: We say things like, I just I just needed to be more tolerant, I or I just I just need to be reasonable, I need to consider it from their point of view.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're having a hard time and they're facing multiple difficulties.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: You make allowances and you repeatedly make allowances, but you do so at a really heavy cost.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because all the while this is so, you're disappearing.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Your own identity is replaced by theirs, and you begin living their lives, anticipating their needs, avoiding conflict.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you're encouraged to believe that what you're doing is the right thing.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in that situation, not only do you believe that, but you start saying it to yourself.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is very common in families where addiction is present because people buy into the dysfunction accordingly, they maintain it.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Abusive relationships are just the same.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is the case that as you enter this period, fragments come to the surface.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: The thoughts, the feelings, the memories, the reminders, but they start to take on a different quality because there is a charge that runs through them.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you've completely withdrawn from the person who did this, or at least have been able to emotionally separate yourself, you have the benefit of distance from which you can view your experiences more objectively.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy and is often very, very painful.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: But as strange as it sounds, this is healthy pain, and I know that sounds strange, but it is it is that the pain that you you're experiencing now is the pain that was denied whilst you were going through these experiences.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: You suppressed that because that was a coping mechanism, you had to survive it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: But now you're allowing yourself to experience it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, none of us like likes to do that.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the the other option didn't work really, did it?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in truth, if we are hurt, it is right for that hurt to find expression.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, realistically, you can't move on healthily until you do just that, because you'll find it incredibly hard to distinguish between the past and the present if the past hasn't been worked through.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I see this in every patient, regardless of why they've come to therapy.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the unresolved past that finds expression symptomatically in the present.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Recognition, therefore, is about facing the reality of your experiences.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's about realizing that these things really did happen.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: And whatever they were, whatever those events were, you're not making them up.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Someone else defined your reality, manipulating you into their belief system.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there are so many ways in which this is accomplished, all of them highly toxic, and many of them are insidious.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I want to also just remind listeners that we're we're not talking about single episodes.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about patterns.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the most deceptive is, and this is quite remarkable, worthy of an article, but one of the most deceptive of all is when the abuser tells you that they are a victim of having been abused by a former partner or partners.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in some ways it's kind of clever, but it isn't really, it's awful.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and actually, what it does is it conceals the fact that actually they probably were the abuser, and the other person complained, and they became villainized, and the title of abuser was handed to them.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's a particularly toxic dynamic, but it has mileage because the person can retain their victimhood while simultaneously persecuting the person who is being receptive and generous to them.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like you can't you don't realize that you've been sold a crock of something unpleasant until you actually experience them.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: But bit by bit, and again with distance, you start to see, hang on a second, I don't think I can trust a single word this person has told me.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then you may find yourself learning that all of the things that you have been told about the other person were incredibly toxic distortions.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you see the pattern, then you start to see, yeah, okay, this was never about me.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: They've done it before.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we don't we don't have the dubious luxury of learning these things, um for you know all kinds of ordinary reasons, but sometimes we do, but even so it doesn't matter because it is your truth that matters, it is your experience that matters and the sense that you make of it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: These behaviors become normalized.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes what happens is others will say, Well, if it's that bad, why does the person stay in it?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is really simple.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: The person doesn't see and know that the relationship is that bad because it's become normalized, and is it is their reality, it is only when they leave that situation that they can look back and see, and that's when the recognition starts.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it is so very difficult for the people who are observing what is happening but can't persuade the victim to leave because that they can see it clearly because they're not the recipients, and I think this is because you know the victim has become trapped within the illusion, and the driving force to remain is the illusion of hope, hope that things will return back to that beginning where everything seemed okay and everything seemed wonderful.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And very often they're fed scraps, uh scraps of hope, little indicators, little actions which keep the individual on the hook.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a promise to do something together.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: A I mean, there are just all sorts of things, little things that keep the hope of hope alive, and that really is foul.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: But it happens.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And those things are intended really to keep you on the hook.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: You'll be told you are important, you are, you know, and it's a like I said, it's a crock of something horrible.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not allowed to swear, so you can fill in the four-letter word that begins with S and ends with T.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And no, it's not salt.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: But if I continue with that metaphor of the hook, it is the case that the line has to be cut.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: The line between you and the hook that's in your mouth that is being held by the other.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: You have to cut the line, and the hook and the removal of the hook happens afterwards, and it's the recognition that you were hooked, you're free now, but you've still got the hook in your mouth, so to speak, and that's gonna require removal, and it's left a wound, and the recognition of that is the first step in the healing, but it can also be humiliating because you are having to face the painful reality that you've been played, and sometimes this this happens over I think it happens progressively.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think the realization that I just can't do this anymore.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I can't what what what what's what what what am I getting from this?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Pain, disappointment, a general feeling of just being used by someone and it starts to build.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people take quite a while to make that final decision to walk away, and that can be a shock for the person who is being walked away from.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: What did I do?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, where shall we start?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that if we go back to the the if we go back to the line, cutting that line can work really well if you cut all contact, because that sends a very powerful message, and you won't have been the first to do it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: That makes it possible for you to realize I wasn't wrong, I was deceived, I was treated badly, and I can do better than that, much, much better.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: But this is a process that takes its own time, and not without periods of regression, periods of self-doubt, periods where the person goes back into a state of confusion or even self-criticism, embarrassment, and shame.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not linear recovery.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: It really does take its own time.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, and also during that time, sometimes people are tempted to return to the people who did the damage or try and reason with them or try and get some validation, forget about it.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's never gonna happen.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: You made the right decision to walk away, don't undo your good work, stay away.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're looking for something, you won't get it from that person.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because to be honest, you know, if if if they were that receptive, they wouldn't have treated you so badly in the first place.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there are some things to remember.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Some things to remind yourself of.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't do it to myself, it was done to me.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you will be able to think back, remember events.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You will be able to recall situations and you'll look at them differently.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: You'll you'll you'll look through an abnormalized lens rather than a normalized one, and you will recognize it was abnormal.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You would need also to remind yourself I couldn't see what was really happening because I was in it, I was trying to survive it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's okay to say I was exploited and I was manipulated by somebody who really wasn't good for me.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll probably learn that other people have said the same thing about that person.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: You might not, but it doesn't really matter.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: But as I said before, people like this tend to have a pattern.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now there's also something else.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: A question.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: When I think about that person now, what are the immediate feelings I experience?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: When I've asked this question, I've heard people use words like hatred, disgust, contempt, and I can see why.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: But in a way, as unpleasant as these things may sound to experience, they're real.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's what your real felt experience is.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you are right now.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be any place else.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people talk about forgive and forget, and I think that's another crop of nonsense.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can't forgive someone if they haven't atoned, if they haven't tried to rectify, haven't not just explained themselves, but taken responsibility for what they've done.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: How can you forgive someone who does it?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not possible.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't believe that forgiveness is a realistic aim.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think self-reconciliation is the aim.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Self-validation is the aim.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Complete rejection of people like that is the aim, and you will become hypersensitive to those sorts of things.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the recognition is a real facing of your own psychological reality, recognizing what happened.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: And going over it, it's painful.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that that then creates a state of belief and understanding.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: What you're actually doing is you're digesting things, you're digesting the experiences, you're changing your relationship with those experiences, and you will experience a lot.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is painful, but it's necessary, it's healthy.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what you'll find is that when you move on to the next stage, you may say things.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: People won't like what they hear.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Never mind.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: You will hear people's reactions and they will be many and varied.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: What matters is you.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: What matters is your recognition, your facing, your own reality.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now remember that this stage can go backwards.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: You don't do it all in one neat step.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it's facilitated by honesty, your own honesty, the truth, your truth, the rights and wrongs, whether you're being accurate.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the point.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is you write your own script here, and other people's views don't matter.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's nice when people can validate, but on the other hand, there is a point at which that is no longer relevant.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is self-validation that matters, and it's a hard place to get to.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen it so many times.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: But people do get there.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they do so with me and with people like me, they do it with good friends, they do recover.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people get stuck, they don't recover, which is partly why I doing the podcasts, because there is hope, there is recovery, but you have to take the steps.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for listening, and I will be back shortly.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is quite a long episode, but to listen to it in parts if that's helpful.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again.