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ADHD in Motherhood: The Shame, the Chaos & Finding Your Way Back to Yourself · Dam Parenting

• 0:00
  Welcome back to Dan Parenting and welcome to day six of our 12
• 0:03
  Days of Christmas. By now, expectations are high,
• 0:05
  energy is low, and while the idea of a relaxing family
• 0:08
  holiday might feel optimistic, these episodes are here to
• 0:12
  remind you that it doesn't have to be perfect to be meaningful.
• 0:15
  Day 6 is all about navigating family holidays with honesty,
• 0:18
  realism and a little more self compassion.
• 0:21
  In today's episode, we have Doctor Naomi back on to talk
• 0:25
  about honesty and exectations, emotional load, and how parents
• 0:29
  can navigate holidays without burning out.
• 0:34
  Hi everyone and welcome back to them Parenting, your English
• 0:37
  speaking parenting podcast from Amsterdam and we are your hosts,
• 0:40
  Marvin and Eva. This is also another episode
• 0:44
  with our resident psychologist, Dr. Naomi.
• 0:47
  Hi Naomi. Hello.
• 0:49
  We are talking because it's July.
• 0:51
  So what is right in front of us? Some of our can't see what is
• 0:55
  come what comes with that. No child care, no OP Fung, no
• 0:59
  school, all the responsibility on us.
• 1:02
  If you have base or grade, if you have some Fung days, great.
• 1:05
  However, what is also coming is family vacation, traveling with
• 1:10
  kids, taking a location. The whole organization comes
• 1:14
  with that. And we wanted to talk because
• 1:16
  Naomi had said that in the last couple of weeks, she had heard
• 1:20
  from her sessions from clients just being around other parents,
• 1:24
  that this is a topic that sparks anxiety and insecurities.
• 1:29
  And people are not feeling super confident and even not even
• 1:32
  super excited about planning a family holiday and what it means
• 1:36
  to go into the planning, the choosing, the being there.
• 1:40
  So we wanted to have a conversation with her.
• 1:44
  How can we address things that spark anxiety, a feeling of
• 1:47
  overwhelmness with this whole topic?
• 1:50
  Going on a family vacation, especially if this is your first
• 1:53
  time as a parent going on vacation.
• 1:56
  And even if it's your second, third time you have multiple
• 1:58
  children, it's always, every year is different because it's a
• 2:02
  bag of full wonders with these children traveling and going on
• 2:05
  new places. We wanted to cut this into a
• 2:08
  little chunk. So first we wanted to address
• 2:10
  the whole topic of how do we even sit down and plan this all?
• 2:14
  How can we divide the mental load of planning a holiday?
• 2:17
  What goes into that? And then also giving this
• 2:19
  reality check of we're not going to have the same vacation
• 2:22
  experience as we had when we were just us alone or with our
• 2:26
  partners. Yeah, without kids, basically,
• 2:28
  where we could go in pretty burnt out or like, I need a
• 2:32
  vacation, go into the vacation, rise like a phoenix from the
• 2:35
  ashes afterwards. And often the reality traveling
• 2:39
  with children, going on family vacations is that none of this
• 2:42
  is going to happen. And some of them, Eva found a
• 2:46
  great quote from one of the groups.
• 2:48
  What was it you found? Which one?
• 2:50
  The whole thing of when you return from your holidays, you
• 2:52
  actually need an actual holiday. Exactly you.
• 2:55
  Feel that? I think everyone will feel that
• 2:58
  at one point. Yeah.
• 2:59
  So we wanted to jump right into the topic what comes with plan
• 3:04
  planning a family holiday. So I guess first of all, how can
• 3:07
  we even start start planning this and what are the the things
• 3:11
  that we should be considering when sitting down and planning a
• 3:14
  family vacation? I feel like we're asking Naomi
• 3:16
  now to be a travel advisor. That's fine, yes.
• 3:20
  Travel advisor, no. I suppose I'd be thinking about
• 3:23
  the holiday that you might want to go on with your baby or your
• 3:26
  or your kids. It's possibly a bit different
• 3:28
  from the holidays that you would have taken on your own or as a
• 3:31
  couple or with friends or to music festivals or whatever it
• 3:34
  is you did for for fun before. So it's kind of maybe the first
• 3:38
  step is thinking, what would feel like a holiday nowadays?
• 3:42
  Is it going to visit family somewhere and getting like
• 3:45
  support in a different place? Is it going, yeah, to kind of a
• 3:49
  all inclusive whatever kind of place with kids clubs?
• 3:53
  And you know, of course we're talking about the privilege of
• 3:55
  being able to travel somewhere. Perhaps it means actually for
• 3:58
  you it's taking some days off and staying in Amsterdam and
• 4:01
  doing some of the really cool stuff we've got going on here.
• 4:04
  But yeah, I suppose it's first stop thinking of whoever you're
• 4:07
  wanting to go on holiday with, your family or whoever, what
• 4:11
  would look like a holiday, what would feel like a rest for us.
• 4:14
  And holidays trips generally have quite a good psychological
• 4:18
  function in that you get sort of long term motivation.
• 4:22
  You know, I'm going to go on holiday at the end of August and
• 4:24
  I'm looking forward to that. And that can kind of keep you
• 4:26
  going through the harder moments.
• 4:28
  And then when you are there, you get the gratification of being
• 4:31
  somewhere new and getting new experiences and stuff.
• 4:33
  And then looking back, you can. And also sort of dying out on
• 4:35
  those memories and experiences afterwards.
• 4:37
  So they play quite a good function in sort of, yeah.
• 4:40
  There's a reason why these things, these moments have
• 4:42
  evolved where people go places and be with their families and
• 4:45
  have festivities and stuff. It kind of keeps us going and
• 4:48
  motivated. So I suppose with that in mind,
• 4:50
  like what kind of trip or activities or things would make
• 4:54
  it feel like it was something to look forward to rather than
• 4:56
  dread? And is this something that you
• 4:58
  think should be as parents depending on the child's age, I
• 5:00
  guess should be filling our cups, not just those of the
• 5:03
  child? Totally, Yeah.
• 5:05
  And I think that's the challenge that I see.
• 5:06
  And Marin started by saying lots of having lots of conversations
• 5:09
  in therapy about it because there's a hard kind of balance
• 5:12
  on how do you meet your child's needs and maybe a wish for them
• 5:15
  to have this super lovely holiday and all these, like,
• 5:17
  core memory unlocked kind of situation versus how are you
• 5:22
  going to be on that holiday? Is it that being in a Beachy
• 5:25
  environment with a baby and a toddler would be awful for you,
• 5:28
  Too hot, too unmanageable, too whatever?
• 5:31
  That you wouldn't be able to be the kind of calm and attentive
• 5:33
  parent that you would want to be?
• 5:34
  Actually, that would be really overwhelming.
• 5:36
  And it might be better and more fun to go and on a city break to
• 5:39
  stay with a friend that lives somewhere else or whatever.
• 5:41
  So I'm thinking about what you need as a parent to allow
• 5:44
  yourself to also have those fun memories as well.
• 5:46
  I think one question I think for me was what do you remember as a
• 5:50
  baby? If you're six months old,
• 5:51
  nothing. One year old, nothing. 2 year
• 5:53
  olds, OK, I have a memory of being like just under 2.
• 5:57
  But for the rest of it, yes, I don't have much memories.
• 5:59
  So the reality is we don't have to make these amazing holidays
• 6:02
  for these little human beings right now.
• 6:04
  So it is a case of capitalizing on them right now to be able to
• 6:07
  make it as easy on on it for us I guess.
• 6:09
  Yeah, and they're on a sort of emotional memory kind of way.
• 6:13
  You kids and babies do remember when their parents are feeling
• 6:16
  settled and kind of fun and not too stressed.
• 6:19
  So whatever gives you access to that is probably what you need
• 6:23
  to do with a bit of dose, a dose of kids having a good time too
• 6:27
  as well, because that's also a lot of holidays, lots of ice
• 6:29
  creams and whatever fun. Things ideal to my daughter,
• 6:33
  that's for sure. I screams OK.
• 6:35
  One of the things Marin had actually talked about when we
• 6:37
  were discussing prior to hitting that record button was we were
• 6:40
  talking about the division of Labor, as it were, when it comes
• 6:44
  to planning. Because there is an amazing
• 6:46
  count out there. I think it's called motherly on
• 6:48
  Facebook and on Instagram. And they show these like
• 6:50
  diagrams of like what the mental overloads can look like for for
• 6:54
  many of us. Marin had actually, I think
• 6:56
  shared they've got many, many, many, many.
• 6:58
  But it was a case of like, if you're planning a holiday, it's
• 7:00
  like, well, First off, what's the day?
• 7:02
  Can we both do? Where are we going?
• 7:03
  Who's going the holidays available?
• 7:05
  Like what's the weather going to be like?
• 7:07
  You know, you're, you've got a list of like 2 1/2 thousand
• 7:09
  things in your mind before you can kind of come up with a, oh,
• 7:12
  here it is On this date. This is how we're getting there.
• 7:15
  So there's quite a lot in there. So one of the points Marin was
• 7:18
  making was the division of labour.
• 7:20
  How do you think we can tackle that with our partners?
• 7:22
  Yeah, Division of Labour is a toughie.
• 7:24
  I think there's a part of like, playing to your strengths and
• 7:27
  skills. If there's somebody who really
• 7:29
  likes researching, I don't know, car hire, that's my husband.
• 7:33
  He loves to find find out about car hire, so that is absolutely
• 7:36
  his job. Yeah.
• 7:37
  And then sort of the planning around kind of packing and what
• 7:41
  we need and certain things. That's something I find fairly
• 7:44
  satisfying. Can be a bit of an arduous
• 7:46
  process, but so, yeah. And play, play to your
• 7:48
  strengths. But I suppose it's also about, I
• 7:50
  suppose, any of these things, even if it was household
• 7:52
  division of labour, it's about sort of making the invisible
• 7:54
  visible in a sense. So we're about to go on holiday
• 7:57
  in the next couple of weeks. What kind of things do we need
• 7:59
  to prepare? What sort of food do we need to
• 8:02
  buy, you know, the practical things and just kind of having
• 8:04
  those conversations and seeing where that lands and making a
• 8:06
  bit of a plan. And particularly when it comes
• 8:08
  to kind of baby care and things, thinking how that looks like in
• 8:12
  your family anyway, because that's something that I see as a
• 8:15
  big worry in, in people is OK, Well, how is this going to be a
• 8:19
  holiday for me if I'm having to, I'm exclusively feeding the
• 8:22
  breastfeeding the baby perhaps, or I'm the only one that's
• 8:25
  managing food for weaning. And how are we going to take 15
• 8:29
  different sorts of frozen purees with us?
• 8:32
  And then that perhaps that worry then not being heard by a
• 8:35
  partner of like, actually, that's really important.
• 8:37
  You can't just rock up in wherever and not they might not
• 8:40
  have the kind of baby food that you need.
• 8:42
  You know, just, I suppose it's just being able to talk through
• 8:44
  these worries and have them be heard and made a plan.
• 8:47
  I do have to say that does remind me that there was a
• 8:49
  couple of like WhatsApp chats where people are like, hi, I'm
• 8:52
  in Thailand right now. Can anyone tell me what's the
• 8:54
  brand? I meant to get here back in the
• 8:56
  Netherlands because we've run out of it or we spilled it or
• 8:58
  whatever it was. And you're just reading and
• 9:00
  thinking like, oh, I mean, that thought already probably would
• 9:03
  have given me anxiety and I would not have ever made a trip
• 9:05
  to Asia with a six month old because I would have just been,
• 9:08
  so how could we get this? Where could we get it?
• 9:10
  So kudos to everyone who can do this.
• 9:13
  Yeah, and I suppose it's just speaks to the how hard it is,
• 9:16
  how when you're travelling with with little ones, you know, if
• 9:19
  that were, if that were you as an adult, you would just be
• 9:21
  like, oh whatever, I'll just eat this thing.
• 9:23
  Or maybe it's not my deal, but that works.
• 9:25
  Suppose there feels like you can't do that and it's a lot
• 9:28
  more at stake, which can be a bit stressful.
• 9:30
  One thing that I found also very helpful is really sitting down
• 9:34
  in this. I'm very glad that you address
• 9:36
  this Naomi and have a conversation with your partner.
• 9:39
  What is it that you want part of this vacation?
• 9:43
  Like, how do you, what's the one thing that you, we want to feel
• 9:46
  after? Because when in the past, when
• 9:49
  we went into the vacation was like, yeah, I just want to
• 9:51
  relax. That was like the overlayer of
• 9:54
  everything. So we, we, we made sure we
• 9:56
  relax. But nowadays when I ask myself,
• 9:58
  what do I want out of what's the one thing that would help me
• 10:01
  relax? Like, I don't want to worry
• 10:03
  about cooking. So this was like the one very
• 10:05
  important thing for me because I don't want to worry about
• 10:08
  grocery shopping. I don't want to worry about
• 10:10
  planning the meals. I so this was one very, very big
• 10:14
  chunk of my mental load in my day daily life where I said I
• 10:17
  would feel on vacation if this thing is addressed, the whole
• 10:20
  food situation, I don't want to worry about that.
• 10:23
  So my husband knows we're not going to rent finca in Majorca
• 10:27
  for two weeks of self cooking and planning and all that
• 10:31
  because this is not something that I would consider a vacation
• 10:34
  and he might say for me, it's important that we're at the
• 10:37
  beach. So we already know, OK, we have
• 10:39
  these are the 2 four things let's plan around that.
• 10:42
  So I find it very helpful to sit down and really what would be
• 10:47
  difference that you would feel after this vacation and how can
• 10:50
  we address that need and then take it from there?
• 10:53
  And that was one thing that we found very helpful because it
• 10:57
  yeah, now that you're a parent, your needs have shifted.
• 11:00
  And in the past, I loved cooking.
• 11:02
  I wasn't even paying attention to the like, it wasn't a big
• 11:05
  thing. I could have gone on a self
• 11:06
  sustained vacation for two weeks in the house because I was like,
• 11:09
  yeah, I enjoy this. It's easy breezy.
• 11:11
  I'll try out new ingredients. I'll find whatever is in the
• 11:14
  supermarket. But now it's labor part for me
• 11:17
  and now it's stressful for me. So this is 1 big part that I
• 11:21
  always say I want someone to take care of the food.
• 11:24
  That's that's what I need to feel.
• 11:26
  So we're going to find you on an on a class where you're going to
• 11:29
  be in an all inclusive Corfu Beach Hotel.
• 11:32
  OK, that's it. We know we're in Marin and the
• 11:33
  family, but this is like. Yeah, the one thing.
• 11:38
  So we found and then we, we planned around that.
• 11:41
  And also maybe asking then your child or looking at your child,
• 11:45
  what is the environment that they thrive in?
• 11:48
  SO1 very basic example is if you're a child is young and is
• 11:53
  scared of the beach and is scared of the ocean and gets a
• 11:56
  whole tantrum when you even say the word or you even make one
• 12:00
  step towards the ocean. And then your vacation plan was
• 12:03
  we're at the beach the whole day, then that creates a big
• 12:06
  problem. So maybe also see what's the
• 12:08
  environment that your child thrives and what do they then
• 12:11
  need? And how can we address all these
• 12:13
  these needs? I was thinking of food.
• 12:15
  That is a big sticking point. If you had a kid that for
• 12:17
  whatever reason only ate plain pasta, like that is a reality
• 12:22
  for lots of toddlers and you were having to go to this dining
• 12:26
  room every day where they couldn't get what they needed
• 12:28
  and stuff, actually you'd be better off like camping or yeah,
• 12:32
  self catered. And you can sort of manage the
• 12:35
  the parameters of what feels kind of stress reducing.
• 12:38
  That was actually reminding me of something we spoke about
• 12:41
  prior where when I was looking into this topic, people were
• 12:44
  talking about like if you might have an introvert partner, you
• 12:47
  yourself might be introverted or highly sensitive.
• 12:49
  There's a lot of downtime that requires and you are in a
• 12:52
  routine where you're able to figure it out.
• 12:54
  But once you go on holidays, there is not really a routine.
• 12:56
  And this can cause a lot of stress.
• 12:58
  And exactly like you say is taking everything into account,
• 13:01
  be it your child only eats beige food and it's like, well, that's
• 13:04
  not really going to work out. Like sometimes in an all
• 13:07
  inclusive resort or, you know, if your partner is like really
• 13:10
  needing to be in nature surrounded by green, your beach
• 13:12
  holiday might not be the what's going to be in the head there.
• 13:15
  So it's a case of, yeah, really understanding each other's
• 13:18
  perspective of what you both need, I guess.
• 13:20
  So, yeah, that's a fair enough point.
• 13:22
  But unfortunately it can be hard.
• 13:24
  One point that I found very important, I also asked myself
• 13:28
  how does my child feel that they are on vacation and how can they
• 13:33
  also look forward to it. So one thing that I have
• 13:35
  established in my family is vacation means fun, vacation
• 13:39
  means something different than home.
• 13:41
  So giving the very simple example, ice cream on vacation
• 13:45
  is like unlimited because my child knows and I also know
• 13:49
  we're there for what, 5 days, seven days Max?
• 13:51
  Like it's fine if she eats 3 ice creams a day for these five days
• 13:55
  because then she knows this is vacation and this is what we can
• 13:58
  do or we can eat cake for breakfast.
• 14:00
  Like what are the things that your child would feel like?
• 14:03
  Oh yes, this is something different and it's not the same
• 14:06
  rules. It's not the same stuff.
• 14:08
  It's like I and they're totally overwhelmed with trying the
• 14:11
  whole thing at home but in a different environment.
• 14:13
  But what is their treat? How can they they think back and
• 14:17
  this is what I asked my when when we talk about the vacation,
• 14:20
  this is the one thing that my daughter says.
• 14:22
  And I eat ice cream and all day and I'm like, yes, you can
• 14:24
  because we're on vacation. And it feels really nice to
• 14:28
  offer that treat. And how can you also offer that
• 14:30
  treat to yourself? You know, maybe that is
• 14:33
  something as simple as an ice cream every day.
• 14:34
  But also maybe it's like, yeah, I don't know, reading a book.
• 14:39
  Or maybe there's a bit more down time that you can get a little
• 14:41
  walk on your own whilst your family are doing the things that
• 14:44
  they're doing on holiday. Or, you know, what would feel
• 14:47
  like a treat? Is it staying up late?
• 14:48
  Is it going to bed early? Is it having conversations?
• 14:51
  Is it playing card games? Like all these things that sort
• 14:54
  of you allow yourself when you're outside of the normal
• 14:56
  rhythm of life to have these kind of treat moments.
• 14:59
  So maybe that's something to sort of reflect on before when
• 15:01
  we're thinking about planning like, yeah, what would feel like
• 15:04
  a rest, a relaxation, but would also feel like a bit treaty as
• 15:08
  well. What would your example be,
• 15:09
  Naomi, if we can ask that? Yeah, what do I like?
• 15:12
  I love having permission. I think I would have this anyway
• 15:15
  at home, but I love having permission to read in the
• 15:18
  evenings because normally after dinner or whatever, you
• 15:20
  absolutely poop from the day. Stick the telly on, you know,
• 15:24
  the hours just dwindle away. But we go camping.
• 15:27
  I love camping. And it's, yeah, that's the sort
• 15:29
  of holiday that allows for just sort of sitting and reading
• 15:31
  until it goes dark and not really even talking, just sort
• 15:34
  of just reading your books. And yeah, that feels like such a
• 15:37
  treat because it's just, yeah, just kind of existing without
• 15:40
  any sort of need to be entertained necessarily.
• 15:43
  And with your kids then, so if you're once you've had your
• 15:46
  dinner, is it a case if you're still sharing the load of both
• 15:48
  of you are putting the kids to bed together then.
• 15:50
  And then it's a case of the two, if you're able to, then go.
• 15:52
  Let's now read. Yeah, pretty much.
• 15:55
  But even those bedtime things, there's something very special
• 15:57
  about holiday. They don't.
• 15:58
  It doesn't always feel like a chore on holiday.
• 16:01
  I don't know whether it's because it's a different space
• 16:03
  that you're doing bedtime in or yeah, like when we're camping,
• 16:06
  we you have to like, wander off to the toilet.
• 16:09
  Toilet roll underneath. Yeah, and with your toothbrush
• 16:12
  and stuff. So like the kids even want to
• 16:14
  get their teeth brushed, which is like basically about an
• 16:17
  adventure. Home.
• 16:18
  Yeah, so there are definite. Well, there's I was gonna say
• 16:21
  there's definite perks to being on holiday.
• 16:23
  Of course there are. That's why we do it.
• 16:24
  But there's things about family life that can be a bit easier as
• 16:28
  well, just by being in a different context and
• 16:30
  environment. So one thing I think a lot of
• 16:32
  parents, especially for first time, so if we're looking at
• 16:34
  people, there was conversations about people trying to have a,
• 16:37
  you know, a holiday after like 3 or 4 weeks after giving birth.
• 16:40
  And it was, I was just like, Oh no, no, no.
• 16:43
  You know, there's vaccinations to think of, there's yourself
• 16:45
  and your checkups to think of. But when people are thinking
• 16:47
  about the three months where they're thinking, OK, now's a
• 16:49
  good time to go away with the kid.
• 16:51
  They're a baby. And, you know, there's not much
• 16:53
  that, you know, they have this certain routine.
• 16:55
  But The thing is, I think a lot of people have this.
• 16:57
  I think we spoke about it earlier, but the ideology of
• 17:00
  you've had your holidays before, you've had your child.
• 17:02
  And so you get to go on sushi tours, you get to go to beach,
• 17:05
  you get to do whatever you want. But I think there might be a
• 17:08
  misconnection that when you're bringing a child, oh, well, they
• 17:10
  sleep anyway and they just need to be fed.
• 17:12
  There's not much that needs to be done.
• 17:13
  And I think there is maybe a little bit of a disconnect with
• 17:16
  the reality check of bringing a child because you're still
• 17:20
  parenting, just in a different location.
• 17:22
  And I think there's something, I think, yeah, with what we spoke
• 17:25
  about with the mental loads, trying for parents to understand
• 17:27
  that, yes, you're going to go on this nice holiday with three
• 17:29
  month old and it's going to be nice.
• 17:31
  But it also is a case of, you know, try to take care of
• 17:34
  yourself and be ready for the reality of still having that
• 17:37
  home life, of being awake throughout the night or, you
• 17:40
  know, not being able to go out or your child is having a
• 17:43
  poonami for an entire day because of something in the
• 17:45
  water, whatever it might be. I find a lot of people are able
• 17:48
  to take these holidays no problem, where for me, I can
• 17:50
  never even imagine going anywhere until my baby was a
• 17:53
  year old, for example. And so I think what could we
• 17:55
  talk about for those who have anxiety, who really want to have
• 17:58
  a holiday or especially bring their baby back to their family
• 18:01
  maybe or just take a break out of the city just to be together?
• 18:05
  Is there something you can maybe attest to that?
• 18:06
  As I suppose the first point is, as you've said, kind of
• 18:10
  accepting that anxiety is often around in new parenthood anyway.
• 18:13
  And then if you take yourself out of your environment that
• 18:15
  you've starting to feel kind of safe and at ease in, then that's
• 18:18
  going to be even more anxiety provoking.
• 18:21
  I hear a lot about parents struggling with the thought of
• 18:24
  like, how will my baby be in transport or how will they be on
• 18:26
  a plane or what will they need? Or what if they scream the whole
• 18:29
  time? Or what if we get chucked off
• 18:30
  because they scream so much? And these are really kind of
• 18:33
  stressful, anxious worries, aren't they?
• 18:35
  And yeah, I'll just come back to beating the same drum about self
• 18:40
  compassion. Like, what do you need to feel
• 18:43
  like you're doing a good job? You know, how can you speak
• 18:46
  kindly to yourself? So maybe your baby is absolutely
• 18:48
  screaming the roof there. Maybe they've got sore ears on a
• 18:50
  plane and they're having a terrible time and you're also
• 18:52
  having a terrible time. Like, how can you become and
• 18:55
  kind to yourself that know and know that it's just finite, you
• 18:59
  know, that your baby needs you in this moment and they're
• 19:01
  screaming, but it will end and that you will get somewhere and
• 19:04
  that someone will make you a cup of tea and it will be all right
• 19:06
  and just you're doing a good job and that people on the plane
• 19:09
  probably also think you're doing a great job because they've been
• 19:12
  there or they've been that baby or whatever.
• 19:14
  Yeah. I suppose I think also about the
• 19:16
  fact that for me, holidays always used to be about kind of
• 19:19
  excitement and unpredictability and oh, should we stay out and
• 19:23
  go to this thing or should we go in that, or should, you know,
• 19:25
  these sorts of things? And actually those are the
• 19:27
  ingredients of family life That makes things really stressful if
• 19:30
  things are unpredictable or too kind of exciting.
• 19:33
  So to just think about how you can maybe still have fun and do
• 19:37
  things that feel fun to you, but put in some elements of
• 19:40
  predictability and that will be different person to person,
• 19:42
  family to family. You know, is it that you make
• 19:45
  sure you're in bed at a certain time?
• 19:46
  Is it that you have those snacks that your toddler really likes?
• 19:49
  Is it that you bring the certain toys and books from home?
• 19:52
  Those kind of practical things. Yeah, to kind of reduce
• 19:55
  everything being unpredictable, which you can feel like.
• 19:58
  Absolutely. What I found very why practice
• 20:01
  with starting to go on holidays, starting to go on like these
• 20:04
  little things with my child was that I took very little baby
• 20:08
  steps in expanding my radius. So coming back to what you said,
• 20:12
  Eva traveling with a four week old or whatever the first
• 20:15
  vacation putting this in her quotations we did was we took
• 20:19
  the budget that we would usually have for a week somewhere else
• 20:22
  in another country with flying and all that and we.
• 20:25
  Booked a very super nice hotel in Amsterdam and stayed there
• 20:28
  for the weekend. So I knew and it was literally 5
• 20:31
  minutes driving from our home, the hotel.
• 20:34
  So I was like OK I if anything is I can go home.
• 20:38
  If I need anything my husband can go grab it like I'm in.
• 20:42
  I felt like I'm in a super nice hotel so I am on vacation but
• 20:46
  I'm so close to my home if anything is I can just go there.
• 20:50
  It's a 10 minute walk, 5 minute drive.
• 20:51
  And we did that for one weekend and then a couple months later
• 20:54
  we went. So we within the country.
• 20:58
  So I knew, OK, if there's anything, they have the same
• 21:00
  things in the supermarket, they have the same things at there.
• 21:03
  It's like the same environment, just different, different.
• 21:06
  So this is then and then after this, oh, now we can travel
• 21:09
  outside the country and then we went to Germany.
• 21:12
  So this is really what we did, taking it step by step and
• 21:16
  learning from these things and not changing too much at the
• 21:20
  same time. So that was one thing that
• 21:23
  really worked for us. And then also when we went then
• 21:25
  further away, the trip to Sremmaniko, I know every Dutch
• 21:28
  person now is going to slaughter me how I pronounce it.
• 21:31
  But this island near Croningen, it's usually it's, it's a 1, I
• 21:35
  don't know, half day trip there. If we would just get in the car,
• 21:38
  get there with the ferry, but we made it a 2 day trip.
• 21:40
  We said OK, we'll take the train to Croningen.
• 21:42
  We sleep there one night and the next day we're going to take the
• 21:45
  rest of the trip to go there. So this is how then we broke it
• 21:48
  down we and then we didn't lose a day of travelling, but we had
• 21:51
  a nice night in Croningen, a nice hotel and then we moved on.
• 21:54
  And then we did the vice versa when we went back.
• 21:56
  So really thinking a little bit, how can we break this down into
• 22:00
  baby steps and expanding the radius like little by little,
• 22:05
  what feels comfortable now? What feels doable now?
• 22:08
  What? What's the and how do we want to
• 22:10
  travel? Yeah, I could drive with the car
• 22:12
  to Berlin. It's if I sit, I it's a 8 hour,
• 22:15
  like 7 hour drive with one bathroom stop.
• 22:18
  But with a child it can be a 2 day journey.
• 22:21
  So I'm really taking this into consideration.
• 22:23
  How can we make this fun on the journey, getting there, getting
• 22:27
  back and what is then the actual time we spent there?
• 22:31
  Yeah, and I think you were really in those examples, sort
• 22:33
  of meeting yourself where you were and expecting this non mum
• 22:37
  version of yourself to just be like, right, we're going to go,
• 22:40
  let's do it, don't worry about it.
• 22:41
  Actually you're saying like this is a scary thing to do where it
• 22:43
  does feel like it would be safer if we were closer to home.
• 22:46
  OK, now we've got it a little bit more confident.
• 22:48
  Let's go further away. It's sort of yeah, that's really
• 22:51
  kind to yourself in those moments.
• 22:52
  And it sounds like you also had fun.
• 22:54
  Yeah, it was great. Yeah, it was really great.
• 22:56
  And now and and I hadn't really realized it said it just came up
• 22:59
  when we were talking. I was like, oh, because I was
• 23:01
  thinking like, how did we how did we start traveling?
• 23:03
  Well, first of all, it was also different because it was like in
• 23:06
  the midst of COVID. So putting that also out there,
• 23:09
  but then also putting it out there for parents.
• 23:11
  Now that now the world is back up and now we need to travel.
• 23:14
  Now we need to do all this big, big, big, big stuff like
• 23:17
  Amsterdam. How many millions of people come
• 23:19
  to Amsterdam every year as tourists?
• 23:21
  So the city is decide to explore and even if you're not from
• 23:26
  Amsterdam and listening to this, then maybe a trip to Amsterdam
• 23:28
  or vice versa. For me, a trip to Rotterdam or a
• 23:31
  trip to Utrecht for the weekend is then vacation or even to
• 23:35
  Cologne, Dusseldorf or whatever. So really, what's the radius?
• 23:38
  How can we make it easy? And like you said, I, I wanted
• 23:41
  to do something, but I didn't feel confident.
• 23:44
  And it gave me so much anxiety, like going somewhere very far as
• 23:47
  I thought, OK, this is the hotel.
• 23:49
  I, you know, it's going to be nice.
• 23:50
  And I also know I can be home in 10 minutes.
• 23:53
  Yeah. Point.
• 23:54
  I'm surprised with that. I didn't know about you.
• 23:56
  I know traveling all around the world, this gave me the
• 23:59
  confidence to now travel around the world because I took it step
• 24:03
  by step and I know what I need. I know what my child needs, I
• 24:06
  know what my husband needs more and more.
• 24:08
  So this is how we we learn and grow and also don't be afraid of
• 24:12
  going back to the same old places because that's what we've
• 24:14
  been doing. If something works, then it
• 24:16
  works. And if I never?
• 24:17
  Would have done that, but we have like fourth year on a row
• 24:20
  going back to the same campsite. Exactly.
• 24:22
  Yeah, yeah. It's like it's not broken.
• 24:24
  Let's keep going till it feels not the right place and the kids
• 24:28
  like it and you can, we'll say that's quite handy because you
• 24:31
  can be like, oh, we're going to that place and do you remember
• 24:33
  where we eat this kind of food and you know, you can go and get
• 24:35
  a baguette in the morning and stuff.
• 24:37
  And they're like really excited about that.
• 24:38
  So there's something, there's some benefits in the repetition
• 24:40
  that 25 year old me would be laughing at myself for doing.
• 24:45
  I mean, that was my childhood, going to the same small town for
• 24:49
  I don't know how many years, but yeah.
• 24:50
  And I was so bored with it. But the reality was is, yeah.
• 24:53
  It gives you also stability because you know where you're
• 24:56
  going to, you know what to expect as well, even as a child
• 24:58
  as young as 567. I guess before we wrap it up, I
• 25:02
  think maybe we should kind of give some tips and tricks that
• 25:04
  we've learned along the way ourselves, just for how we
• 25:06
  manage things. So I'll, I'll just knock some
• 25:09
  off here. For example, one of the things I
• 25:11
  had, which I actually borrowed from Marin was, umm, the stocky
• 25:15
  travel box where when you're traveling to America, it's
• 25:18
  really easy for my child to fall asleep.
• 25:20
  I'm super jealous because I have restless leg syndrome, so my
• 25:22
  legs are jumping around and meanwhile she's stretched out
• 25:25
  like luxurious premium economy or business class.
• 25:28
  That for me was always great on little snacks.
• 25:31
  I'm not a real, I don't like her to snack throughout the whole
• 25:33
  day, but I'm like, we're on a whatever 8 hour flight and I'm
• 25:35
  like, girl, you just eat whatever you want as long as you
• 25:37
  want. I really don't mind as long as
• 25:39
  we can get through it. And we got the headphones.
• 25:41
  Uh, what else? So we got books, play DoH.
• 25:44
  I mean, you can see there's piles of like suggestions out
• 25:46
  there. And it was also a case of
• 25:47
  getting her up and walking around.
• 25:49
  That was the other thing was just constantly getting her up
• 25:51
  just to look and explore. And we were very fortunate.
• 25:53
  We got on a flight actually this year and they, we were one of
• 25:56
  the first ones on and they asked us did we want to go into the
• 25:59
  cockpit? And I was so excited and my
• 26:01
  daughter said no thank you and walked off and I was crushed.
• 26:05
  I think, yeah, it's just one of those things.
• 26:06
  Just keep them up and running around.
• 26:08
  But there's certain things that will work for your kid depending
• 26:10
  on their personality. So yeah, it was books and food
• 26:12
  basically is for my daughter, you guys.
• 26:15
  So the the handiest thing also equipment when you think car
• 26:18
  seat when they have outgrown the the baby, the carrier baby, what
• 26:23
  what's it called? The Mexico.
• 26:25
  Mexico. 'S you think?
• 26:25
  Mexico's Yeah, exactly. Yeah, or any other.
• 26:28
  Brand or any other brands? Yeah.
• 26:30
  The Urban conga car seat is amazing for even small toddlers.
• 26:35
  It folds into a backpack. You can pick it on a plane as a
• 26:38
  carry on. So I can highly, highly, highly
• 26:41
  recommend that. It's not meant to be for hour
• 26:44
  long hard drives, but it's exactly what you need for this
• 26:46
  taxi transover, 30 minute maximum an hour, I'd say in that
• 26:51
  seat. But that has really, really
• 26:53
  helped us along with the little stocket travel bed thing.
• 26:57
  And one thing that I also found handy for myself is we travel
• 27:01
  with the iPad with headphones. And then one thing that I try to
• 27:05
  limit is, is it screen time or is it the snacking?
• 27:07
  So I, I want to pay attention to one thing where I'm like, OK, we
• 27:11
  need to contain and one of these factors where it's like, it
• 27:14
  can't be endless screen time and endless snacking all at the same
• 27:18
  time. So I said, all right, this is
• 27:21
  what I'm going to limit it to. This is the area where I'm going
• 27:23
  to limit it to. So this one thing that I try to
• 27:26
  remember, OK, what is the one thing that can float a little
• 27:29
  more freely and make everything easier?
• 27:31
  But then on the other side, what is the one thing that I want to
• 27:35
  pay attention to and contain it a little bit so it's not all
• 27:37
  over the? Place I think a top tip for me
• 27:41
  would be about just that your your child, your family's sort
• 27:44
  of ecosystem. Aren't you So trying to keep
• 27:46
  yourself calm and also snacked and also having appropriate
• 27:50
  adult. I was going to say toys, but
• 27:52
  that's definitely not, I mean, just as an adult, things to look
• 27:56
  at on a on a plane as well. So you got books, All of your
• 27:59
  books. There we go, all the cars things
• 28:03
  are. Not all your favorite podcast?
• 28:04
  Yeah. So just as in like there's so
• 28:07
  much attention on what your kid might need to remain calm and
• 28:10
  regulated. What do you also need?
• 28:11
  Do you need like things that smell nice, that keep you calm?
• 28:14
  Things that keep you grounded? Things that keep you breathing
• 28:17
  exercises? Whatever it is, you'll have
• 28:19
  various tools in your arsenal, but also what do you need?
• 28:22
  Well, I'm just pointing out that like what myself and Myron have
• 28:25
  just done is like, what is it that we could just get by from
• 28:27
  to manage our kids? And you being a, you know, a
• 28:31
  therapist basically who's able to help us manage ourselves, you
• 28:33
  actually just focus on exactly what we should be focusing on is
• 28:37
  how can we take care of ourselves as well?
• 28:40
  All the snacks in the world is not going to help if you're like
• 28:42
  a jittery, anxious shouting version of yourself.
• 28:46
  No, because I'll grab them off her and I'll just eat them.
• 28:48
  So I mean, you know, win, win somewhere.
• 28:50
  Right. Yeah, but this is the one.
• 28:52
  One thing, yeah, that you mentioned is also that I have in
• 28:55
  my little hand purse bag. It's like I have a nice face
• 28:58
  spritz where I'm like, OK, if I really get super overwhelmed,
• 29:01
  first of all, it's this sensory shock, shock in quotations
• 29:04
  because it's not ice cold, but it's a nice sand.
• 29:06
  It's a nice little splash in the face where I'm like, OK, take a
• 29:10
  breath, spritz, take another breath, get fresh into the
• 29:13
  situation. So this is or can be.
• 29:15
  Really. Help roll on like whatever is it
• 29:18
  or like these little massage rings that like one tool, one
• 29:23
  skill that you have that comes you or mint breath hill.
• 29:27
  So like 1 stimulus that can take you out of this anxiety that you
• 29:32
  you might be getting into when thinking or going through the
• 29:34
  whole travelling journey. Yeah, the most powerful thing
• 29:37
  you don't have to buy at all is your.
• 29:39
  Breath. Yes, that.
• 29:40
  You can be like, I'm going to slow down, take a few breaths
• 29:43
  here and that's often the reset you need to then go into the
• 29:47
  next challenge.