Latest / The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten / Isn't It Shallow To Divorce Over Lack Of Sex?

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Isn't It Shallow To Divorce Over Lack Of Sex? · The Dr. Psych Mom Show with clinical psychologist Dr. Samantha Rodman Whiten

0:05
Hi everybody, and welcome to the doctor.
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Psych mom show today, I'm going to be addressing the question is
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Anna Challo to divorce over lack of sex and before?
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And people do ask me this, both men and women ask me this, it's
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not like all people that separate because of intimacy
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issues are like super excited to break up their family because of
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intimacy issues. I mean, you know, that's not a
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thing not to mention that. Most people do not divorce over
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lack of sex alone, it has to have, there have to be many
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others. Issues going on which of course
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I will address before that though, please do subscribe.
0:40
My most recent subscriber. Episode is kids deserve a happy
0:44
parent but do you know what that looks like and frequently we
0:46
don't before not reason happy household.
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So is it shallow to divorce over lack of sex?
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I mean I guess it would be if the person couldn't have sex
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with you because they were sick then definitely it would be or
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because they didn't have genitals anymore and some freak
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accident or I mean I don't really know.
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I mean Is really no situation where one person cutting off.
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Another person from something that they need is not a good
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reason to consider separation whether this is emotional
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closeness or physical closeness. So the reason that people ask
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this is because our culture is like super sex - and especially
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at this point it makes emotional closeness, it puts emotional
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closeness on a pedestal. It'll and physical closeness is
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like way, way less than so it seems.
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So if somebody were to say isn't being incredibly lonely, a
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shallow reason to divorce, everybody would say no way, you
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know, be incredibly lonely is not a shallow reason to divorce.
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And in fact, everybody deserves to feel like, you know, like
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they have somebody who's there for them within a marriage but
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this is in fact exactly what people are saying, when there's
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lack of sex, they're saying I feel incredibly lonely.
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I feel Lonely. Because this is not a marriage
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in any way that I thought of marriage would be and in any way
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that our relationship originally looked like, you know, and so
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this is this tremendous change is, is a source of tremendous
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grief and on ending sadness to me.
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But people don't say it like that because people aren't, you
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know, super articulate all the time about the things that
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matter to that. So when somebody thinks isn't
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it, shallow to divorce overlap. Of sex, it's not lack of sex,
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it's like of intimacy. And also of course it would be
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shallow if you didn't even try or you didn't even say anything
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you didn't even try to work on the issue while then yeah.
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I mean you do you definitely made vows and a marriage to be
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together through thick and thin etcetera.
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But the other person made vows to, you know, to be together
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through thick and thin and to take you seriously and to care
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about you. So, it would be crazy and
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misguided and I've certainly never seen it for somebody to
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just up after, you know, ten years of marriage.
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Get up and say, I am leaving you today because our sex life has
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been inadequate that just does not happen, you know?
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I mean of course like there are true assholes and sociopaths in
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the world, who would do that? But I mean, I've not met them.
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They sort of those certainly aren't the kind of people who
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come in to couples counseling or individual counseling for that
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matter. So what most people mean is, I
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have been trying in some way or another, to bring this up.
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We have gone to therapy, we have talked about it, I I have tried
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to do a lot of changing on my end and somehow we still keep
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getting stuck that you should never have to touch me because
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it's your body and your choice or what have you.
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And now I'm envisioning, the rest of my life.
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Without any physical intimacy. One, that is my primary source
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of love and feeling good, you know, feeling any happiness.
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And should it be somebody source of feeling happiness?
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I mean, I don't know, I just had a podcast on whether sex is a
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need or a want. And it's certainly, a huge
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evolutionary drive to procreate and to be close with a, with a
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romantic partner to pair bond. So if that's not going to
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happen, really for the rest of your life, then it is a source
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of tremendous distress. I mean, I always make the
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analogy with a baby. Like, can you love a baby
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without touching it? No, you know, I mean you really
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can't. There's no way to love a baby
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without touching the baby. I guess, you could love it from
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afar. If you're like a grandparent and
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a didn't neighboring, Country and you can't see the baby.
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Sure, you can love a baby that you don't touch, but you cannot
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care for a baby. You cannot love the verb.
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You cannot the verb love. Take care of, make, feel love.
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You cannot make a baby feel. Loved without touch, right?
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So, then, there are many humans, adults that you also cannot make
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feel loved without touch. And if you are married to one of
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them and you don't touch them, then yes, that would be a reason
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for them to leave and Not saying that people don't have very good
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reasons for not having sex. Like for example, they're in a
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very bad marriage or they have an abuse history or their super
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depressed or whatever. And I talked about a million
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reasons for low libido and we're maybe the guy's terrible in bed.
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I talk about that frequently. You know, there are million
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reasons but if you want to remain married and you want to
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be a loving close partner, then you would work on some of these
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reasons that's kind of the part that needs to be stressed.
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Is that You can't be a loving partner or say that you're
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willing to try if you're not willing to try.
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What? So, what willing to try looks
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like in some people that I work with is women that will show up
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and discuss sex in couples counseling.
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This is a big willing to try from a woman that's like super
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uncomfortable around sex and I have many of them.
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I also work with a lot of people who were raised like Evangelical
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and they were raised super sex - so for those women sitting in a
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session with me where we're talking about Sex and orgasms is
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like horrible. You know I mean especially at
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first you know it's super outside their comfort zone and I
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always encourage the men to say, wow, isn't she doing a really
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good job showing up and talking to me about sex?
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This got a suck for her. It's got to be a worse part of
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her weak, but she's showing up and she's trying.
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So in that situation, the person is trying.
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They're trying to get outside of their comfort zone and when they
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try to do assignments, such as to cuddle, or to touch or, or to
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kiss, or whatever, they're getting super outside.
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Their comfort zone. Everything is subjective, right?
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I mean like sure. Like it would be in fact,
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shallow to say, you know, I want to leave you because I don't get
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for blowjobs a week. That's like what I need to be
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like my best self but nobody does that you know that isn't a
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thing that happens. You know when men leave it's
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more like we haven't had sex in over a year and you have not
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touched me with love outside of wrote sex in like Three years
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and like those are the things that I don't think are bad
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reasons for leaving because I certainly would not think they
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were bad reasons for leaving the inverse situation nor would
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anybody you know, the exact same people that would judge a man
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for leaving in a sexless marriage situation would not
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judge frequently a woman for leaving in the same situation.
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So people have a lot more compassion for a woman that goes
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over and tries to sit on her husband's lap, and he pushes her
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away, or a woman that goes and tries to kiss her husband.
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Hello. Oh, oh and he's and he puts his
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head, the other direction or who begs for him to have sex with
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her. And he says know everybody
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thinks that that guy is an abusive asshole.
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Everybody does. But then in the other, in the
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other situation, people don't say that the woman is being an
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abusive asshole. And I understand that there's
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gender differences. I don't think that in those
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cases, the woman is, in fact as unusual as a man would be in
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that situation because of the differences in testosterone and
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basic sex drive and responsive versus spontaneous desire and Of
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the things that I discuss as major true biological.
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Gender. Differences, evolutionarily
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mediated between, you know, the genders, but there it's not like
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there's no overlap in how those two people feel.
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It's not like there's zero overlap in the woman who gets
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pushed away by her husband, and the man who gets pushed away by
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his wife, they both feel like shit, you know, and over time,
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they both do take on the Persona of an abused person because they
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both are rejected over and over and over.
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So, So, there is a big difference.
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So, people don't generally leave a woman who says, I can't now.
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I don't know why. This has gotten so hard for me.
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My drive is so low. Also like I don't feel close to
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you, I want to go to couples counseling.
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I want to talk to a gynecologist about maybe hormone stuff, I
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don't know. Also like there's this stuff in
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my past as you know we're like it's been very uncomfortable for
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me to talk about sex from How I was raised.
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Maybe I should talk about that in therapy.
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I don't know like a woman who's like willing to pay.
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A ball like that men don't leave those women over sex, seriously,
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like I talked about this a lot and it's probably been a while
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since I talked about it. But I watched this BBC, special
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years ago and it was about these women, who couldn't orgasms.
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They were trying to get this device implanted into their
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spine so that they could potentially have more sensation
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on orgasm and it struck me. Even at the time this was
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before, I was a psychologist. How happy the men were in these
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in these interviews they were loving.
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They were loving happy men there, they were not able to
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give their wives an orgasm and that was like a source of
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sadness to them and source of sadness to the women, too.
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And that key part, that last thing I just said is why they
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seem so happy. I mean, they were like dancing.
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Like, this was like, these women were doing, like, a surgery that
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involve risks, but what I mean by happy, as they seem happily
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married, they were like, not unhappy, and you would think
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they would be because here they are in a situation where the
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woman can't get off, and this is like a problem.
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For both of them, but it was a problem for both of them, the
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woman, endorse, and validated, and shared this feeling of
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sadness that she could not connect to the man in this way
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validated his feelings to, to the point that she was going to
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involve surgery in order to potentially try something that
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might or might not work to remediate this problem.
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But she believed there was a problem.
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So when a woman believes there's a problem in this situation.
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No man is leaving man of Very loyal, if the woman is loving.
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You know, I mean, look some people cheat, some people are
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assholes fine, but the majority of people are good people and
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they don't want to leave their marriages.
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When they leave their marriages, it's gotten to a place where it
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seems unsustainable and it's incredibly lonely.
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And for some people it's so much conflict or unhappiness that
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they feel like they are being a bad parent, so people don't
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leave over nothing. And if anybody has said, Or if
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you're in a situation where you are considering leaving over
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sex, for sure it has gotten very bad.
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This isn't just like oh you got rejected a couple times.
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This is a situation where you feel like there is no love
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forthcoming and it doesn't seem to bother the other person at
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all and your views on marriage or so wildly dissimilar.
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That it makes you feel like you would be sacrificing your entire
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self on the altar of this marriage.
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And at a certain point that does not feel like Tolerable
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situation nor does it seem ethical you know doesn't seem
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like you're treating yourself with respect or compassion if
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you completely repudiate everything that you want in a
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relationship because the other person just doesn't want to deal
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with it and I'm not seeing that person does not have plenty of
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shit. That's blocking them from
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dealing with it. Many of the ship may have been
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created by you. But still, if somebody does want
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to remain married, they owe it to the other person to really
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put themselves out there and talk about and think about and
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try new. Things and new approaches.
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So, if you're partnered with somebody that will not try in a
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regard, that is so cataclysmically important to
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you. Then it's certainly not shallow
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to consider what separation would look like, you know, and
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nobody does this lightly as I say over and over and over,
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Nobody Does this lightly. So, yeah, I think that it is an
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interesting thing to discuss. Like, if a spouse has ever said
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to you, I can't believe that we discussed this all the time.
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Don't you have anything better? Better to think about.
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Don't you have anything better to talk about?
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This is so shallow. This is so stupid and I have
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posts and podcasts on like when women consider physical touch to
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be a less real or an inferior or shallower love language, but you
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got to express yourself better. You may not have been and then
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it's all, you know, it's a, it's a disservice to them, you know,
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because then they can't have any idea about what you really feel.
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And you need to say this isn't about sex for me, what this is
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about is that we don't seem to share a vision of marriage and
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Feel increasingly lonely and disconnected and hopeless and
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stock and depressed. And I don't see you feeling very
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happy either and what we owe it to to the family and to each
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other is to work on understanding each other's
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perspective, which wouldn't mean that.
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Like I just agree with you eventually that sex doesn't
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matter and it certainly wouldn't have to mean that you agree,
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that sex is as important as I think it is, but we need to get
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to a middle ground where we can each understand each other
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Perspectives and try to work together, to create something
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that is sustainable for both of us.
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So that we do not showcase a miserable marriage to our
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children, nor do we have to experience one in the only life
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that we get. So, something like that would be
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something that you ought to say. You know, if you are in the
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situation which so many people are where they feel completely
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stuck and hopeless because the one person that is supposed to
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be a source of comfort and Of has turned their back on you, at
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least that's how it feels and I'm sure they feel the same.
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They, they, well, may feel the same emotionally and then you
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need to work on that too. These things need to be worked
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on at the same time, though. So when you go to couples
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counseling, as I frequently say you got to look for somebody who
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discusses sex, and that's not everybody.
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So you know, there's a lot of couples counselors and I talked
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about this a lot. Couples counselors are just
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people. Plenty of them don't like to
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talk about sex because people don't like to talk about sex
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because it's a taboo. Subject in our culture.
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So you need to find somebody where specifically they talk
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about sex. Obviously, I am such a person
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and I hire such people in my practice best life, which I
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always linked to. But if you're looking for
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somebody, do not just assume that after X amount of time of
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talking about emotions is when we're finally going to talk
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about sex many, many couples counselors believe that after
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you fix the emotional problems and sexual problems, just fix
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themselves. And this is why people end up
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seeing me after years and years of unproductive counseling.
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Other therapists where they really learned how to say there,
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I statements very well and how to fight fair, and how to
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rejigger, all of the domestic labor, and emotional labor, and
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all sorts of fucking labor and the house.
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And meanwhile they are celibate and we're might as well be and
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it's for years and years. You know, with no hope of change
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despite that all these other problems have been superficially
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soft. So anyway that is your your
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Today, she can talk for today to validate anybody who feels shame
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that the idea of even considering leaving over
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something as quote Chalo a sex. And see, this is why it's not
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and it would be just as ridiculous as saying to
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somebody, you want to leave over the fact that he just calls you
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a couple of names. He just calls you stupid,
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sometimes you just calls you fat sometimes.
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Why would you want to leave him over that?
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You want to break up your family over?
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Something like that. Yeah.
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Well because it's not just that it's what it means to be in a
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verbally abusive relationship. That's what it would mean.
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So it's not just that you didn't get a blow job on Tuesday or on,
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you know, any Tuesday in any year that starts with, you know,
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to in it which is more of the normal experience of men that I
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see. But it's that it's what it
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means. It means like a vast Wasteland
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of disconnection and loneliness and Miss Attunement, and lack of
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empathy and that is something that would make somebody
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consider divorce or at the very least, get into couples
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counseling ASAP. All right, guys?
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Hopefully, this was useful to you guys and I will talk to you
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soon. Have a great day.