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Combating Fraud Attacks In Banking · Leaders in Lending

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You're listening to Leaders and Lending from Upstart, a podcast dedicated to helping consumer
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lenders grow their programs and improve their product offerings. Each week, here decision
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makers in the finance industry offer insights into the future of the lending industry,
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best practices around digital transformation, and more. Let's get into the show.
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Welcome to Leaders and Lending. I'm your host, Jeff Keltner. This week,
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I'm joined by Raksh mirage Car from Capital One and also from the CBA
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Fraud Committee. So we're going to talk about I'm not no bade and switching.
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We're talking about fraud and talking about fraud because I want to start.
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You know, you help lead the CBS Committee on Fraud. What's the topics
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that are top of mind for the committee this year? Imagine it's it's a
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pretty interesting time in the fraud space because there's so much turbulence in the market,
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overall interest times, fils a little thank you fund inviting thank you for
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joining us. So if I think a lot of the most prominent falcakes that
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could we have been discussing in the Fraud Committee. We have seen a very
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big resurgence of our So when we went into the pandemic. The banking industry
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saw substantial death infraduct to me, really, and that was because fraudusters were
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attracted by all the government funds that were available. Their whole focus was on
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PPPE, stimulus checks free and stimulus checks and anything, and then that money
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right up. And we always knew that they're going to come back at every
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financial the stations, and they did, and it was very The pace at
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which they came back was insignificant. The other thing that happened during that transition
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is as an industry, we went and adopted a lot of digital ways of
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contracting, so consumers were transacting more and more, not in person but digital,
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and that's always an area where frousters like because they're not going to be
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required to be in person. So those two things happened that they wanted to
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back and find a new avenue, and we had opened up and created a
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lot of features that are digitally available, and so it created a perfect environment
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for them to come. So we've seen a lot of fraud and lots of
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different ways. Just a heard thing that had happened along these waves. Imagine
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that everybody started to work from Homeziba started doing digital activity. Consumer data was
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more large scale, compromised across lots of different institutions. So now frosters have
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this amazing set of cleaned ristine data that they carried against the financial stations.
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So we saw fraud at scale. We saw a lot of fought activity.
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They saw a lot of week en identities come through the rules. As an
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industry, not a lot of banks have very sophisticated defenses, so they were
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able to recognize it prevented. But it's a nuisance factor constantly getting targeted and
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attacked on lots of different ways, and I know some of the banks had
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to rearly up their game move from badge defenses to real time defenses and all
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those ignorant happen. We saw also activity that we considered as traditional fraud.
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Checks fraud were like the old school the old schools where me saw the check
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fraud because a lot of stolen mail and for us to picking up the check
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from the mail and then making a connossy and then trying to call that at
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scale. And then we saw obviously some interesting fraud in the digital space.
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We opened up digital, consumer started adopting digital and yeah, so that's what
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the fraud isn't going to go because it's real time, it's instant, and
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we did see that. And then the last thing I would say, which
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I think you have hold a lot in the industry is emergence or scams.
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So as as the fraud community realized that banks have built really sophisticated signals and
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defenses, so instead of coming against and trying to find gaps, they still
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do that in the bank's architecture, they started going and compromising the customers.
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So a lot of impersonation, yeah, the weaker, the weaker link in
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the chain, so to speak, and the social engineering. We saw a
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lot of that has come up and they preclanding to be either the banks,
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of government agencies or whatnot. And so scam is through the roof as as
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an industry. Are these like real shifts from what you were seeing pre pandemic
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when you said, it's kind of fascinating me that the fraud kind of dial
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there was easier money to cheat for and so you targets of opportunity, right,
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and then it comes back. But when it came back, are these
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like different trends and you were seeing before it looks similar to what was happening
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in twenty nineteen twenty eighteen. In terms of the kinds of fraud, they
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are most prevalent. I think the difference that we found was it's most automated
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ZACT scale. The piece of the fraud activity is tremendous. So what they're
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trying to do is open act scale thousands and vidions of accounts and financial institutions,
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and then as they open it, they wanted to try and make fud.
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Yeah, they're trying to nink accounts, they're trying to move money.
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So the base at which this is moving has really on a One of the
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trends we noticed in our systems. I'm curious if you've seen this more broadly,
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is a slow kind of I'll call it almost probing, and then there's
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like, okay, we're trying little things, and then when we can figure
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out the playbook, like if I do this and then this and then this
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and then this and then this and this and this very specific to our institution,
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then all of a sudden, band there's like one hundred thousand people.
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It's like we found a little hole and we're a jam as much fraud through
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that hole as we can until that I think the expectations of it will be
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closed relatively rapidly. But it's like, oh, we find a little hole
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we got to then then all of a sudden, just like how are there
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a hundred thousand applications an hour from like des Moine? Like that doesn't it
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doesn't make any sense. And we see a lot of things to National CAFIC
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come so IP addresses that are not US based IPS or the glue outside and
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when the banks amize that and they are putting controls, they picked the switch
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to IP addresses studifferent locations. So yeah, the scale of sophistication has gone
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up. Yeah. The thing that surprised me most when we saw shifting of
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IP addresses was shifting to even residential network blocks where either were talking about you
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know, Comcast households and whatever in midwestern city and you went, oh my
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god, like that's not even like a big server IPEd block or something.
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It's like, it's very very hard to distinguish those kind of IP addresses from
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normal ones. I agree, And then I think the interesting thing that was
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different from bad one was scans as a very different thing. We haven't seen
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the scale all the scams. What kind of scams are you seeing like,
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what's the typical tack look like in that space? Good question. So the
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new ones that we have started seeing is because online marketplaces I've explored, they
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tried to be pretend to be sellers. So more than one puppy scans or
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concert ticket scans. Did your tailor swift tickets over in the swifty shiites again,
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so you think that you're actually paying were to somebody legitimate that you will
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get this really nice cute puppy with all the pictures and everything is very clear,
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and you send three thousand dollars to somebody and Okay, it's no show.
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Yeah, so that has definitely gone up. The concert tickets is the
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same thing. So there is that level of scams that's happening. And then
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the other one that we have seen is typically fraudsters take advantage of the fear
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if consumers have so not of scam that we see is taking advantage of the
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fear. So we see things such as government scams, so they pretend to
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be from IRS or someplace. If conversation goes as, hey, you haven't
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paid access and we're sending FPI, it's going to be at your door in
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two hours, but you have a were like, you can actually send money
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right now, I can take care and prevent from happening. And it's really
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trying to pay the dynamics of whatever is the social situation in any residence that,
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oh my god, my spouse forgot to find the axes. I don't
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want the cops to come over and let me go ahead and make this payment,
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and they take advantage of that. We had a really good conversation yesterday
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around they're targeting vulnerable customers, particularly in the adult population, and there are
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lots of different variations of that that happens as well. Grandparent scamps is a
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classic one. So they pretend to be your grandkids calling in saying that they're
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in trouble and couldn't send some money to get him out of the tuble.
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Yeah, yeah, um. And we have seen versions of I was actually
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visiting this country and they have arrested me for something, and here's a parent
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and taking oh my god, my parents something silly and there's a parents.
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Yeah, it was just something about that, and they have with send money
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and the money's gone. That's interesting, you know, it's this fascinating question
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to me. When the scams shift to the consumer, is the target,
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because there's kind of question of like how responsible is the bank ultimately like attack
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credentials or these are often like real customers doing real activities and you're saying,
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well, you want me to not do what you say with your money,
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and yeah, you don't. You want to be made whole when you're cheating
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a scam like this, and you know, there's I think consumers if we
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had a guest on recently who was talking about how they educated their consumers about
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some fraud and scam attacks because we were walking into the bridge, this is
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what you told me about the scammers on the fund right now trying to give
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my money in the bank. Was very proud they've done that. But do
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you see a role for government or other institutions to help on the consumer education
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side. It doesn't feel like it's entirely the responsibility of the banks to educate
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consumers end up help prevent on that attack factor because it's not in some real
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way attacking the bank. It's a very different kind of thing, and it's
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such a great question. We should all work as a community to help out
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within us. The banks definitely need to play a role, and I'll talk
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about that developments can't very huge role here, so they have clustered, they
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have fun they can reach moscare consumers in affective area and it's not about one
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bank doing it, it's about the entire community getting ready for that. We
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have seen some really effective campaigns, particularly in the European countries. The good
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news is we have seen a lot more awareness and interest on moment. Agency
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particularly CFPP has shown keen interest in how they can leaning and how and they
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have budget as well, so we hope that they actually go in the direction
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of usually effectively effectively if I look on them. Education banks can play a
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lot of all two because consumers trust their banks. So we have been doing
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a bunch of campaigning and consumer education both in person in branches and for Capital
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and its cafes like also emails and reaching consumers where they are and telling them
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about common schemes and what to watch out for. And we see the huge
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impact of those campaigns. The other thing that I feel is important for banks
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to do is just like you're trying to spot fraud even if your consumer is
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making a transaction and you can recognize that in the moment, can you tell
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the consumers that watch out for these camps and the information right there and that
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has been extremely effective. Interesting, he wants a tuning the transaction and then
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they pause and then you pick on it and then you read about, oh
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my god, that's exactly what's happening to me. Maybe I should call my
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grandson before I send the money to get him out of prison and see if
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maybe no, Mom, I'm home, no problems exactly, that's that's so
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what a helpful figure it back way. And then of course law enforcement can
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play usual as well. Um, some of these fraud and scam activity is
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happening internationally. Yeah, and while it's coming from international and they're partnering with
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the law enforcement in those respective comparty setting planning to break that cost for that
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world. But interesting, have you seen anybody I imagine the answer this is
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no, But it comes up like I know, and in many companies you
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get the IT security department sending seemingly like sending the fake scam, and then
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when you click how it, they go just so you know, yeah,
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like you failed the test and then we got at I've always enjoyed because there's
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a little button in our system where I could see, like I think this
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one spam and that they send you the target test and you get it.
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They're like you will, Okay, I call it. You can't fool me
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with this one, guys. But I don't know if it's gone to that
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kind of shaking attacks on their consumer. It maybe too much for the consumer.
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But that maybe I don't know, that maybe going a little too beyond.
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But um, yes'm I also get design from d r T security.
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Yeah, but I think it is more about the education and how you can
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engage with the consumer months. Um, So me do a bunch of campaigns
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in our cafes, um and then we also plot every National Council of Aging
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for creating some virtue and workshops. But chicken in the oulderly populations and they
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understand how they can be impouting them to use tissue technologies. The other thing
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that we have observed we keep looking at what kind of frauds are coming up,
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But this tech support scam is a big thing. What is that?
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So consumers when they're on their computers, they suddenly get or they can get
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a phone call or an email, but they say they give message saying hey
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we detected virus on a computer. Some things around happening. This is Amazon
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all officially what the tech company is callers, and then the consumer calls.
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Of course they're talking to the camera, and then the camera says pretends to
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be doing a service for them and say that I need to get into you
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ntin it? Oh god. So they give live access remote access of their
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computer, so a gains. All the frausters are coming in and they're putting
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all these kind of fake analytics on their computer saying, hey, we detected
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thousands of virus, and then they show a ticker as if it's cleaning up
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those virus. At this point, the emails a completely beaming that oh my
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god, that was in a bad shave tank. God, this listener is
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helping me. And then now they have anymore access and they get into a
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mansion organization. Stop thinking confection, Oh now it's I mean, I just
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spent a lot of time with my kids. If I'm like when you get
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an email, like if I get a call from American Express, when I
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get an email from MX or Capital wants, hey, you've got to confront
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of your card. What do you do? You think I do this?
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You call the number in the back of the car. You don't, yo,
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who respond to the email. You don't call the number of the email.
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You pick up your card and go call on this number. So just
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trying to teach the basics. I loved your point about the real time intervention
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for scams when you can like help someone in the momentum who's maybe about to
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complete the transaction to a scammer, and you say, hey, have you
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thought about this or have you is this what's happening? Um? The thing
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that occurs to me is that kind of real time identifying of that and reacting
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to it requires quite a bit of both data and the intelligence in terms of
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real time systems, an analysis to see it in real time, and then
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the data to actually be able to analyze that and look at it. There's
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a lot of bit investment in that, and I'm curious how you think about
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the investments that are being made and the technology shifting and where the priorities are,
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because it's like that's a very sophisticated thing to be able to do.
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But if you said, hey, we do a batch process every night,
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so tomorrow morning, I'm going to tell fifty people that I felt victim to
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a scam, But it doesn't help me in the moment, how or how
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do you see people investing. What are the recommendations you have for how you
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invest the technology to allow you to move to kind of like that real time
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nature, because that's not that's pretty sophisticated. Batch is completely old school avality.
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It shouldn't think about that. When the world has more prio time,
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payments have more PRIOD time, you have been closed and each media, and
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it's important to even internalize what careod time really means because for some people earlier
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time could be that pretty second and for some people to be affuming itself and
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in the world of prid time, you and seconds matter. Yeah. Oh,
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I was talking to a coodique from one of the banks and they were
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having some fraud issue and I was asking them, but don't you have defenses
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that are in your time? And her response was as reach you. But
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by the time this thing happens and we get it into our defenses, there's
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a sifteen minute gap and then that's a real time in It is a too
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long a time for frances to take advantaitore. Yeah, I think the way
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we want to think about this is just as the technology and data has exploded,
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you can take advantage of that because you get access to thousands of features
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and variables on any given transaction that consumers are trying to do. And if
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you're creating your systems that can listen and consume those signals in real time,
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use them, consume them, create analytics, create models, and then credit
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that is this really something that your consumers are trying to do or is it
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somebody else? The power of that real time detection can be tremend us.
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A lot of technology changes are happening. We can now consume large sets of
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data and the big seconds micro seconds. The computing power has increased, so
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we can crunch the data into your time like I hear it wasn't possible a
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few years ago, and the morning techniques having drammatically gbms and others, it
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can be very surgical. I always get into this conversation. Also, we
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have fraud colleagues from the banks that there is tremendous pressure on cost efficiencies and
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things doing bad. But if you think about what you're doing with fraud risk
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controls, aid's the right thing to do. You're preventing acting the consumers is
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a bottom line impact. You're preventing bank against our losses, But the real
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impact is what you can enable on the other side with their business. Meaning,
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so if your fraud controls are tremendous, you can enable a lot more
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things for consumers to do. You can now allow and open up your time
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activity. It's why a clouds actions can do everything sitting in the living room
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a small device in their hat. The only reason we don't allow them to
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do as much is because we fear that we won't have fraud. The other
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thing I'd love to get your take on is I think when you move to
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the kind of model based world versus kind of an old school rules based approach,
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you end up with this kind of layering of defenses, which is like,
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I don't have to be a one hundred percent sure and the real times
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I wanted to be the guy got a bunch of signals, and each signals
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like pushes me a little bit. This looks more like fraud, a little
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bit more like fraud. And I don't have to say you can't complete the
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transaction, mister Cosmo. I'd like you to talk to an agent first,
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which I may do a little bit, or I need you to do a
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knowledge based authentication, or I need to get a text message, like there's
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all sorts of layering of what is the kind of friction I might put in
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the process. I don't have to be like one percent sure this is fraud,
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I'm stopping now, I'm this looks like a higher risk. What what
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level of friction or additional process can I layer in? And there might be
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multiple of those layers, So talking about how you design that, because I
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think that's so important to say, how do I go from yes, no,
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like this is or isn't fraud, I'm going to stop it or allow
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it to Like, how do I introduce a little friction to try and reduce
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the likelihood that the frauds are can complete a transaction as my risk perception increases.
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So there are some transactions or signals that people think are Bay BAYPO signals
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if you can take a decision, yeah, just and clearly of the m
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customer and customer. Yeah, it's somewhere in the mind that when all this
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complexity comes in and for us, the way we want to think about this
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is we are in this together without consumers. So when you are in that
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kind of uncertain phase, how do you reach out and engage with the consumers
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to confirm Because there's one person who can always tell you if they are making
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the confection or not. It's consumers um. But then you have to create
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systems that you dejected to time. How can you reach the consumer serio time
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in the channels that they prefer, so that it's not just limited to one
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And then when they're responding, how do you consume that response and then let
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them continue with the transactions that I kind of do. So that system that
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requires such an often investment and thinking and design and cladique of messages for the
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consumers, all of that you have to think one. Yeah, I also
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love your point about thinking about the other sides. I feel like this when
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we approach this, it's always this kind of battle between how much can you
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make things instant and immediate? And of course you can do one hundred percent,
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it's really easy. You just have a lot of fraud and you can
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have you know, zero risk of fraud and everything be super painful. In
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the battle is like how far can I push the limit on instant and keep
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the frauds low at the same time. And I do think in the world
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of digital you're in a world where like the instant actually is a pretty tremendous
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differentiator or at least requirement to be competitive in certain environments. So allowing the
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lack of sophistication on your froadside to prevent that is like that's becoming a large
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or larger liability. I think for banks not to be competitive on the consumer
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side, I totally agree on that one, and I think it's a share
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of response. It's not just banks job to do it. I think it's
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consumer's job to prevent and protect them as well, for sure, And it
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is a government's job to actually helpless designer solution or an environment that's going DC
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banks and consumers to welcome this thing together. So collectively, I think you
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can do it. The international countries have made tremendous focus on those events.
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I go to India vacations and I see that in India's completely digital now and
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they have all created really sophisticated ways of banks and consumerusly acting and interact.
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Interesting. I do want to slide back to your comment on the shift to
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digital, because with a lot of what we talk about is digital influenced.
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But I'm curious what are the is more and more transaction are going digital,
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what are the trends and fraud are the investments you see people making that are
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related to the kind of like I think so many of particularly smaller community banks,
23:07
maybe not Capital one, but are you know, have a little more
23:11
just like in the lending space, we bring you in and check your ID
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and like feel pretty good when Jeff comes in with Jeff ID and jeff social
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security number. And there so many of the processes that are kind of the
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fraud mechicines are oriented around in person experiences and as you move digital, you
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got to find a new way to handle that. And I'm curious what you're
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seeing as the trends in that kind of shifting the fraud detection as we move
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and the prevention as we move pure digital, and so many of our transactions
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that used to be face to face mediated and it had very different mechanisms of
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protection that aren't available. I agree with you, but I would also say
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that digital it provides its own unique way of kind of slumming the identity of
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an individual. Your device has so many signals. If you're able to bind
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deer device to your consumers very very cry, then that is actually a tremendous
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way of detecting who is performing the transaction, not frosts are always trying to
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emulate devices and see if they are care or not, but there is I
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actually think that in some regards, the transactions that happen digitally can be safe
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if a bank is able to consume all the information from those adigional transactions.
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And bigger banks have put a tremendous amount of investment to presume those real time.
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But even for smaller community banks, there are lots of players that are
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out there in a fit that can actually make it easy for them so they
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don't have to do it on their own. But there are so many cares,
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Like even in this conference, you're seeing that there are so many players
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out there reading solutions then the banks can plug into. Yeah, maybe the
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advice I would give to the smaller banks and listeners like one of the one
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of the flaws I is trying to when you digitize, I think of digitizing
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the current approaches and to your point, I think it's like you lose a
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few signals I get, but trying to replace those by uploading a driver's license
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and having a video call at the same time saying Hey, I'm trying to
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do the same thing in the digitally, It's like well, no, there
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are now unique signals that were not available to you before, and you should
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be you should be taking advantage of those and rebuilding your approach based on that.
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Otherwise you can, like, I don't think they're trying to make it
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feel like you're in the branch on your photo idea is gonna it's gonna be
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the way to do it and not us. These technologies up getting on and
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more sophisticated. You should an indignation on the apples me. It's so many
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thanks, so much more fluent. Yeah, and as this technology jstaing Bulo
25:44
is, you can wind did entitys and indivisio very clearly and enable that friction
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less in real time transaction capability. So last question for you, what's like
25:57
for people out there listening go, hey, I see these problems to I
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said, what's your advice on how they prepare for the future investments that they
26:03
should be focused on making to be in position to you know, actually defend
26:07
most effectively against these kinds of things moving forward. Yeah, So I would
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say that it's a never ending makes it fun, makes it fun, but
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there is there's so much of advantage that you get when you get it right
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but don't rest on your moils. So you know at sart is always going
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to change. Now we have seen things such as chat, GPT and all
26:33
these artificial intelligence tooths I'm going to come, so we will see a very
26:40
different level of challenge. The moist recognition is going to be difficult. The
26:45
almost late in old school, you would get a spoofed email. It will
26:51
have typo errors and you would know that if least nabled person reads the email
26:56
out that I don't think this is a professional email. But big things like
27:00
chat, GPT, that thing is going to feel more professional. Field war
27:03
yea. The populated setting it so trends will keep changing and you almost have
27:10
to be on front of that trand change and disappeared where it is going and
27:14
start building your solutions right away. It's a race that's going to happen between
27:18
the banks as well as between the front community on how do you left place
27:22
the technology to be ahead of either. So there is no point in relaxing
27:26
and saying, oh I did all this investment, I can relax north like
27:30
them, you would constantly be on your toes, so I think for but
27:36
take advantage of it. So there's a tremendous amount of capability that's coming to
27:40
the banks as well. The second thing I would say is engage with your
27:47
consumers. It's important to educate your consumers. It is important to take them
27:52
into confidence. The more your consumers are digitally savvy and know what to watch
27:56
out for, the better you would be. So it's an alienating important to
28:00
do that. And as a consumer, I would say, just we have
28:04
attension. It's your money. You need to take a look at it.
28:10
I always tell about thanks and family that look at your banking accounts, how
28:15
much habit to look at them almost every other week, even if you're not
28:18
using them. You don't know who else is your So just holding umber statements
28:23
and see how how your transactions are because it's irresponsibility. If you find something
28:29
bad are unexpected, you're the one who need to contact the backs and tell
28:33
them, yeah, I've I've actually pushed myself and my family working more like
28:37
real time alerts, like you know I find looking through my likes a credit
28:41
card. It's a simple example. Looking through the statement once a month takes
28:44
a lot of time. Getting real time alert saying hey you just bought something
28:47
away. I know, no big deal. And real time much says you
28:49
just bought something I did? Yeah? Uh quit Wait, so I'm accusially
28:55
called my wife on I don't recognize this company for this charge this I'm not,
28:59
I'm not. It's not a problem. It's okay to spend the money,
29:00
Like, I just want to make sure that was you and not somebody
29:03
else. But that real time nature, for me is makes it more digestible,
29:06
right, more not so much as saying, hey, what all did
29:08
we spend last month? Did they go to the gas station on the thirty
29:11
first? Yeah, so you've been trying to do that as a consumer cognizant
29:15
is important. And how about the community among banks? It feels like this
29:21
is a bit of a collective problem and a collective sharing of information is Is
29:25
there a good collaboration among peers to help like identify what's coming and see how
29:29
we can all respond effectively. Yeah, is one. We have the banks
29:33
collaborator pretty heavy as we are finding the same game against the bad people.
29:38
So we had all in it together, so we shared. Our best practice
29:44
is connect to you, maybe go off there the fun stars hun good coming
29:48
to you out here. And CBA is a very lidability community. So excellent.
29:52
You share that plan and so what's happin how do we lene from each
29:56
other um to look that we are doing as banks collect you on Zell and
30:02
BNC conversations on fraud and stands on Zell has been tremendous. The performance dad
30:07
has been amazing. Fund industry to FA levels. How tremendously come bound there.
30:12
Now it's showing up in other nadias. I'll flout other B to B
30:18
companies, but Verdio collaborate and you work together. I think you have named
30:23
blond page or the bad case. Excellent. O gosh, thanks so much
30:27
for joining me to this is a fascinating conversation. I appreciate your bag at
30:30
the time. Thank you for inviting me. If that's fun. Upstart partners
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with banks and credit unions to help grow their consumer loan portfolios and deliver a
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modern all digital lending experiments. As the average consumer becomes more digitally savvy,
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