Latest / The Kink Consultant / What It’s Really Like Working as a Professional Dom: Behind the Scenes with Mistress Verna Part 2

Transcript

What It’s Really Like Working as a Professional Dom: Behind the Scenes with Mistress Verna Part 2 · The Kink Consultant

• 0:08
  It's the King Consultant podcast where we're turning up the heat
• 0:11
  on all things kink and dating, relationships and pop culture.
• 0:14
  So close the door, plug in your headphones, and let's get down
• 0:17
  to it. The thing was, eight years in,
• 0:24
  you've seen all the regulars. You've met all the regulars, the
• 0:27
  people who don't want to see you, don't want to see you, the
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  people who are the guys that only see new girls.
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  Yeah, you know that there's like that type of person, too.
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  You've seen all these people. So you don't get as many
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  sessions, you know, unless you have a client that comes in
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  every single week. I also started sensing that I
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  was aging out of being a Dom. And I'm sure if I had, like,
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  some drive to really be a Dom for the rest of my career, I
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  could have made it work. And like we said, it's not a
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  physical thing, but I went into a session, a meet one time.
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  The guy wanted something like very technical, very specific,
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  like he wanted caning and he wanted something that I was
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  like, this is like not a New Girl that.
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  Session Yeah, you. Know this is like somebody who
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  needs to be skilled enough to know what you need in this hour.
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  And I remember like I thought that I had the session and then
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  he picked a brand new 18 year old and I thought I might be
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  getting I might be aging out of it.
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  You know, like, I might need to move on soon, not because of
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  just that it was a frustrating situation where it's like, I
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  would have done a lot better in that session than this girl.
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  But like, and it's not always about the technicality.
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  It's about, you know, like we said, the feeling of it hit it
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  off with him better. Sometimes what you think it is
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  is like, oh, he feels like he can take advantage of that
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  person. I think it's that a lot of times
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  that's why they want the new girls.
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  They think I can take advantage of them.
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  A. 1000% that happened so many times.
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  And I talked about this in one of my first episodes.
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  The dungeon never made you feel like you needed to do anything.
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  It was like a personal choice with what you wanted to do, so
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  they didn't care if you said no. I just like to point that out
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  because a lot of people think, oh, a dungeon, they're praying
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  on girls and it wasn't like that at all.
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  No, we just talked about this in my personal life.
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  I had met someone who thought that I was being sex trafficked
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  basically. It was a common misconception.
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  Right. And it's like, well, no, I go
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  and sit in a room for 8 hours on my laptop and then like like 4
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  times a day I go and meet, you know, some weirdo.
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  You know, like it's not, not like that at all.
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  It's I say weirdo. But I what I mean is like
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  meeting these people is like you are learning about another piece
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  of humanity that you had no idea existed.
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  Sometimes. Like I learned so much about
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  sexuality being at the dungeon and I brought it into my own
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  life. I kind of knew I was a little
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  kinky, but it was like never a predominant thing in my
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  sexuality, but like getting to explore it in new ways that you
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  never even considered, like a Electro play and you know, like
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  all kinds of stuff. That sounds.
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  Sound. Oh man, like.
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  Needle play. Needles and the vast amount of
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  bodily fluids that you see and witness that people like that
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  you had no idea was even a thing.
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  So true. No you're spot on.
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  I think that that's another thing of working in a dungeon,
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  learning from other girls. Like as much as we joke about
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  the hazing, that was very real and sometimes scary.
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  These same women would be mean to you, but before you went into
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  a session, if you were doing something together, they were
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  going to teach you how to do it. Right.
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  Because we took pride in our work.
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  That was it. Like, yeah, the ones who were
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  there longer. That's why new girls got a lot
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  of Flack, too, because they weren't there to take pride in
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  it. They were there to make money,
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  as I'm sure many of us were when we first started.
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  But you realize, oh, this is an opportunity to learn about new
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  stuff that I didn't know about. Absolutely.
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  And it was not only new stuff, but like new people like
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  learning about how someone ticked in an hour and learning
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  how to make that tick. Go and you would sometimes
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  switch up things in the moment where like they would tell me
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  something and then like we'd be getting into the session and
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  it's like isn't really working and I don't really sense that
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  they're enjoying it as much as they thought they were and you
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  would kind of it's a lot of reading people and.
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  You have to be so intuitive. It's like you have to feel what
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  they're feeling like. It's hard to explain, but you
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  know, when you're around someone and they're not interested in
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  what you're saying or they're not listening, and that was kind
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  of it. And so you realized I have to
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  switch something up here? Totally.
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  A lot of times I would feel would be we'd have a great
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  session. You would learn how to time
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  things out. So it's like, oh, hey, you're
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  like 5 minutes out. OK, we're gonna finish up here.
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  Then I would witness this a lot with our clients, the immense
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  amount of guilt that would come over them.
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  Yeah, as they were done and then as they were leaving.
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  And sometimes like the aftercare of it, of being like, we weren't
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  talking about those things at the time.
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  But I would always feel so bad for them.
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  And I would try to be like, it's OK that you like this, but you
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  know, it's like, yeah, it's fine.
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  It's not a big deal. We're all OK here, you know.
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  This is so normal. Everyone knows this or wants
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  this and it's true. It is true that is what they
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  wanted. But yeah, you would sense.
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  That clients that would get borderline suicidal.
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  I remember being like, I would talk to the manager at the time
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  I'd be like, let's go that guy like he seems to have so much
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  fun in the session. We're having a great time.
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  It's like it's fun and and then once it ends there is a huge
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  switch and he becomes like a depressive person and says stuff
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  like, I don't know why I do this.
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  I really upsets me. I don't ever want to do this
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  again. And you're like, well, OK, but
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  do we not just have a good time? I know that post not clarity as
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  I did. The post not clarity.
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  My favorite was when they would jump up and get dressed as fast
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  as humanly possible and you were like just chill dude, I know we
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  got some time just OK. But like, you know what didn't
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  help? The Applebee's type of buzzer
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  they would give you. So like I would always time it
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  so it wouldn't ever feel rushed. Saying you can't help the ending
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  if they're being slow. Totally, totally.
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  I forgot. This So basically when you went
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  into a session, you didn't really take your phone into
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  sessions because you were there to work.
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  I would have it in my basket. Yeah, we got a little basket
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  going, but like you weren't taking it out and looking at it
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  that often. But God forbid they did not want
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  you to go over and for them to not get paid for the time in the
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  room. So they would give you one of
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  those restaurant buzzers that if you're like waiting for a table,
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  you're handed it so you know when to show up back at the
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  booth. It really.
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  Was well designed. And the manager would like know
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  what buzzer number you have, like #13 and your buzzer would
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  go off in an hour and you knew you had to leave.
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  And you would call the manager and say, I heard the buzzer.
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  We're finishing up, we're getting dressed, we're about to
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  walk. The phone ringing was like the.
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  Yeah, hurrying up. Let's.
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  Get this going. You've got to be done now.
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  Man, how do you not miss it? Very easily.
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  I look back on it at a time that I really enjoyed.
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  I learned a lot. There was, you know, disgruntled
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  employee times too. It was it was monotonous at
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  times and frustrating in many ways.
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  You know, dealing with client who you knew were taking
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  advantage of people or who were taking advantage of.
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  You had to be on the defense. Yeah, and protecting yourself.
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  And, and sometimes protecting other girls, like sometimes I
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  would try to warn people, but it's tough because if they
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  decide that they want to go into the session, there's nothing you
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  can do about it either. And to think, oh, this guy is
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  just going to continue coming here and continue going through
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  the new girls until eternity. It's going to go on forever
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  because people will keep saying yes even if they're warned like.
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  There was a dark underbelly. It's almost like a Black Mirror
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  episode, though there are new girls who will always come in
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  and say yes. But I have to also accept that
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  like, my boundaries are not everybody's boundaries.
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  What I think I would never do, some people would do and you
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  know what some people need money and their limitations for that
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  are were different than mine. And it you know, that takes
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  another piece of the puzzle that you have to just accept that
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  some people do things that maybe I don't do, but they do and
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  that's it. You know it is what it.
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  Is you bridge the gap really well because I remember I was
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  always money hungry even though I had a good job, like I was
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  competitive in that I wanted to get the session.
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  I wanted to do what I could. I remember once you saying to
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  me, because I took less on a a topless session or something and
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  it wasn't a cool thing to do. I was early enough.
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  And your point was, listen, you can do that.
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  But then that lowers the asking rate and the power that we all
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  have to request a specific rate. And I never did it again.
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  And that's why you have to be close enough with some of these
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  women to be able to talk about that.
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  That's why some people get pushed out because they start
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  making the job less than for everybody.
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  It's true, but it's tough because it's competitive, like
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  you said. It's one of those things.
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  It's part of the the wobbly world that you live in there.
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  Because some women would go in and just get undressed for free.
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  That was hard for everyone because it was like.
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  They'd have the picture on the website.
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  That was another thing was like the website pictures.
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  There'd be like a topless or like a see through shirt.
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  The client knows that you're the one and you would see those
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  girls get a ton of sessions. Yeah, because they knew what
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  they could get. Yeah, that's true.
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  OK. I don't want to like have walked
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  away from this point entirely just about how clients would
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  change at the because that was so common.
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  Again, that's just one of those things you weren't
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  psychologically prepared for. No one prepared you for how much
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  of a singer swim moment it was to figure out how to talk to
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  someone who was emotionally vulnerable.
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  There was a lot about that job that was figure it out, you
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  know, and I've always felt like that was a piece of it that I
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  never really got very well, just because everybody's different in
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  that sense. But also, everybody reacts so
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  differently, you know, like the very religious folks would act a
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  very certain way. You know, like we would get the,
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  Oh my gosh. I talk about that, yeah.
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  Their whole demeanor changed. But also, I didn't know anything
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  about the truth before I came to New York, so I was just
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  wrestling with you. We were like almost naked or,
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  you know, whatever. And then it's like, I can't even
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  touch. I like would go to shake their
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  hand and it would be like, no, we don't do.
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  That I know within that community, there's different
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  levels of strictness, too, because some of them had never
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  apparently seen their wives naked, right?
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  One person had said that he was seeing me more naked than he'd
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  ever seen his wife. And I was like, that is scary.
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  But then others were a lot more flexible, I guess.
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  Yeah. And I would always ask them,
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  where does your wife think you are right now?
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  They would answer my questions because I think part of what
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  they enjoyed was the secrecy and getting to tell someone, like,
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  here's the lie I'm telling right now, you know, like, I just
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  wanted a picture of their entire lives.
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  And this was every fucking client.
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  Speaking of one of the wrestling sessions, did you ever get the
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  high school wrestling coach? That's what he said he was.
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  He gave me some advice that I take through life.
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  He would say, you know what, sometimes you need to make an
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  illegal move and you just have to calculate out whether or not
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  it was worth the hit to them. Because if they're in too much
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  pain to come and fight you back properly, one or two points can
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  be lost for you. That makes a lot of sense in all
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  aspects. And I guess I don't know what
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  high school he was coaching out, whether that was a real thing,
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  but he would give some of them, would give us real life advice.
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  I definitely got financial advice from the financial guys.
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  There was only a few of them. There were like things that were
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  built on lies, but there was also a lot of people who were
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  very open with helping you out. You know, there were men who
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  would come two to three times a week, every week, and they'd see
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  different girls. And I remember when I realized,
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  not that I expected my clients to be, like, monogamous with me,
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  but I remember when I realized sometimes you'd be like, oh, you
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  see them on this day. I didn't know they were coming
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  in then. It feels a little weird.
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  But when I calculated out how much they were spending, I was
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  scandalized. I couldn't believe anyone and
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  had that much money. And then I got a little older
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  and I realized how little I was working for.
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  Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally.
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  But yeah, they were pretty nice and they were honest to an
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  extent. They would be real with you,
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  right? And about emotional things as
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  well, I guess one of the things I never realized.
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  And obviously we were seeing a subsect of people like who were
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  interested in this. I was always shocked at how many
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  men would tell me stories about how they lost their virginity
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  and it wasn't within their control at all.
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  There were babysitters and they were really taken advantage of.
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  But the story they were telling themselves a little bit
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  different. So like, again, these are some
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  of those darker stories. Yeah, that they didn't outright
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  say. But once you started to scratch
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  the surface, those existed. But there were also a whole slew
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  of clients who were just there for a good time, who lived good
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  lives. And they were like, take me on a
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  journey and take me on an. Adventure.
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  I definitely had hit a few of those two.
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  The sad stories that come up, you find ways that the kink is
• 12:22
  kind of tied into that, you know, and it's like, it's a sad
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  thing. But those were kind of the ones
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  that would be depressive at the end, you know, like, they would
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  hit that moment. He definitely remember one guy.
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  Well, he didn't tell me a story. The manager did.
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  You know, it tied very closely into his king.
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  I remember after one time I was like, go see somebody, you know,
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  like, yeah, why don't you talk to somebody about this?
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  Because clearly this is really affecting you after you do it,
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  But you feel like you have to do it.
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  So it's like, maybe there's something else to dig here than
• 12:50
  just getting off you. Know honestly, that's part of
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  why I do what I do now because of all those stories.
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  I mean, yes, there were the ones who were like, oh, I wish I'd
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  known that this existed. I would have looked for a
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  partner who was more interested in this and there was that.
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  But then there were the people who really went through
• 13:06
  something, especially as children, and they were working
• 13:09
  it out. Best way they knew to work it
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  out, but there was extra work that could be done, you know?
• 13:14
  Totally. It wouldn't negate the kink.
• 13:16
  It's like what I always say some kink is from trauma and some
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  isn't, you know, and it's sometimes you would know the
• 13:22
  ones where their kink was from trauma.
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  Did you ever feel bad about doing anything in a session?
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  Like, I definitely made a guy cry once and I felt horrendous.
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  He was weeping. I think that was like one of the
• 13:32
  very few verbal humiliation. I wasn't very good at verbal
• 13:35
  humiliation, but I did it one time.
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  It made this guy cry. And I thought like, I can't do
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  that again. That's not for me.
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  And it's also like, I felt so horrible.
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  I basically held that guy for like 20 minutes afterwards.
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  I did make people cry but I didn't feel bad because I also
• 13:50
  pro subbed which I learned people don't realize I was a pro
• 13:53
  sub as well because I guess I don't say that outright.
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  I cried in sessions, and sometimes people did make me cry
• 13:59
  accidentally. Not through degradation, just by
• 14:02
  being a little intense. Yeah.
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  And it's just par for the course.
• 14:05
  We all had safe words, right? We could have stopped it.
• 14:08
  I can count on one hand how many sub sessions I did, some out of
• 14:11
  desperation and some out of like.
• 14:13
  It was like one of the first weeks that I was there and the
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  manager was like, well, you should try to see if you're into
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  like. You should.
• 14:21
  That's bad advice, but. I agreed.
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  You don't know that you can do something or that it's a
• 14:25
  possibility for you. And I went into this session and
• 14:29
  I'll never, never forget, I think I was topless.
• 14:32
  He had a clothespin and he held up the clothespin and I saw he
• 14:37
  was going to go for my nipples. Yes, this is common.
• 14:39
  Yes, OK. And I don't do that.
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  OK, fair. And he went up and slowly let it
• 14:46
  clip on me. And I think I was tied up at the
• 14:48
  time, but not like, really. And I started bawling,
• 14:53
  hysterical. This is like one of my first
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  weeks. The same client who made me cry
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  that I was just referencing. I don't think this is the same
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  session, not together. Could be, the manager had told
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  me he had been around a long time.
• 15:05
  He let the clip glow. Instant hysterical.
• 15:08
  Wait, when you say let the clip go as in he didn't?
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  He's just slowly he like he just let it clip onto my nipple.
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  Even though you said no. I said.
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  I said don't do that. And did it anyway.
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  Did. It like, you know, it was like
• 15:18
  maybe he thought I was teasing or something, but like it was
• 15:21
  like you couldn't have rained me back.
• 15:23
  I was like bawling. I left the session.
• 15:26
  We didn't finish. I left and I went back into the
• 15:29
  room. The girl who'd been there for
• 15:31
  ages and ages, she saw me and the manager saw me, and they're
• 15:35
  like, don't go to another sub session that's not for you.
• 15:38
  Yeah, that's not for me. I think there was like maybe one
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  or two sub sessions I did after that, which were like, I was
• 15:44
  very clear beforehand that I'm not into sub sessions and I
• 15:47
  don't want to be tied up. I remember there was like a
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  handful. You did one sub session and it
• 15:53
  was with another girl that was her regular and you went in not
• 15:56
  as tip but as the full other person.
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  I remember that. Yeah, I was always fine not
• 16:01
  getting sub sessions after that because I just remember the lack
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  of control that you have is substantial.
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  And to put your faith into these people who just walk it off the
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  street. I have no idea how the pro Subs
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  do it, honestly. It just wasn't.
• 16:15
  For me now I'm wondering the reason I'm having such a
• 16:18
  visceral reaction to it is because that is the one session
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  where I cried and I created new boundaries from that session.
• 16:24
  He was a shibari guy and he did beautiful shibari.
• 16:26
  So when you said explained the close pins in the shibari, I was
• 16:29
  like, I think this is the same guy and he had been around a
• 16:32
  while and everyone talked about how beautiful his rope work was.
• 16:34
  And it was he put clothes pins on me, set them on fire and then
• 16:39
  knocked them off with a riding crop before the flames hit my
• 16:43
  skin. And that was really hot.
• 16:45
  But then. In both senses, it's.
• 16:47
  Actually kind of scary, but I remember thinking that was
• 16:49
  really cool. But then he put me in front of a
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  mirror, made me look at myself and told me how beautiful I was.
• 16:55
  And it was the most uncomfortable I had ever been in
• 16:58
  a sense. I started crying.
• 17:01
  I didn't leave the room, but I'm wondering if this guy knew how
• 17:05
  to make people cry. So for years, I wouldn't let
• 17:08
  anyone tell me in session. I wouldn't let them comment on
• 17:11
  my physical appearance, positive or negative, because that was
• 17:14
  traumatic. We had the same session that we
• 17:17
  had the same guy. He made both of us cry years
• 17:19
  apart. We didn't know until this moment
• 17:21
  here. And I think that that is the
• 17:23
  beauty of the dungeon. I remember he had come to the
• 17:26
  end of the rope and that was what he wanted to clip onto my
• 17:29
  nipples. I know listeners are going to be
• 17:31
  like well why didn't you use your safe word in a paid
• 17:33
  environment where you're being paid even if it's a sub session.
• 17:36
  You saying no is the safe word that is commonly accepted like
• 17:40
  you saying no is. It's not a CNC situation where
• 17:44
  you're pretending you're OK with it.
• 17:45
  If you say no, they don't expect you to say red or be like
• 17:49
  Pterodactyl is my same word. It's just it is what it is.
• 17:52
  I remember it was pretty clear he knew that I was a New Girl
• 17:56
  and that I had never done that before.
• 17:58
  I remember there was a client who used to see me regularly and
• 18:01
  one of the things he used to ask me to do was age play.
• 18:04
  He wanted me to play a younger age and that was common.
• 18:07
  I would do that. And I remember saying that was
• 18:09
  my session with him once a week. I remember saying it to another
• 18:12
  woman who worked there. I said, oh, I didn't realize you
• 18:15
  saw so and so too. He does this session with you,
• 18:17
  right? And she looked at me and said,
• 18:19
  he's never asked me to do that once.
• 18:21
  I knew a little bit about her history, but I figured out that
• 18:24
  one of the things is she had gone through some significant
• 18:27
  abuse as a child. And I think that he saw her and
• 18:30
  knew to never bring it up because there were other people
• 18:34
  he had the same session with. So I just assumed we all did.
• 18:36
  And my point mentioning this is I do think that some of these
• 18:39
  men had an innate sense of what they could and couldn't say.
• 18:42
  Just like I think this man might have known how to make you cry
• 18:45
  and make me cry. OK.
• 18:46
  Are you friends with any clients?
• 18:49
  Yeah, yeah, I get texts from some of them.
• 18:52
  They wish me, you know, every every holiday I get like a happy
• 18:55
  whatever, Mary, whatever. Yeah, there was Joe, who I saw
• 18:59
  for years for a few hours every week.
• 19:04
  He ended up getting pretty I'll I'll enough that he couldn't
• 19:08
  walk to the dungeon anymore. Maybe two or three in my 8
• 19:12
  years. And they had to come a couple of
• 19:14
  times before you. Oh my God.
• 19:16
  Almost years for you. It was like I the trust clearly
• 19:20
  was not there for a lot of them. But like, once it got to that
• 19:23
  point where we had been seeing each other for years and
• 19:26
  sometimes they wanted to say, like, Hey, I can't come this
• 19:29
  week or can you come on this day instead?
• 19:32
  Yeah. You know, And it made more sense
• 19:33
  just to contact me directly. But he had contacted me and
• 19:36
  said, like, I can't come anymore.
• 19:38
  Would you be willing to come to my house?
• 19:40
  He was, like, bed bound. And I did for a long time.
• 19:43
  I like, went. And because his session was
• 19:45
  fairly easy, he just wanted me to listen to his stories.
• 19:48
  So I went and saw him for a long time.
• 19:50
  His home health aide would leave for the hour to go get lunch,
• 19:55
  and I would come in. After a while, he started
• 19:58
  offloading kind of his stash of his paraphernalia.
• 20:02
  It's many things that were, I think if anybody found, were he
• 20:06
  to pass away, they would be concerned about what kind of a
• 20:09
  person he was. So he started asking me if I
• 20:12
  would take it from him. And I was like, yeah, sure.
• 20:14
  Or whatever. I mean it took probably weeks of
• 20:17
  backpacks. Duffle bags.
• 20:19
  And he would go every week. And I would go every week and I
• 20:22
  would come back. I would like, I was riding a
• 20:23
  motorcycle at the time, so I would just on my back carry.
• 20:26
  I would have huge stashes of porn.
• 20:29
  What was the most interesting thing you took or had?
• 20:32
  It was mostly porn that he had that was like and he liked a lot
• 20:36
  of images that were like really violent, but he would mix them
• 20:39
  with other stuff too. When I look back, I'm like, it
• 20:41
  wasn't actually that much money, but when I think about what I do
• 20:44
  now and the exposure I got to things, that was another great
• 20:47
  thing. If you were working as a sold
• 20:49
  dominatrix getting your own clients, you are only doing
• 20:51
  sessions you were capable of because you weren't getting
• 20:54
  these internship opportunities to be taught for $20 how to
• 20:58
  extract ball fluids. I never would do that in a
• 21:00
  session outside, it was so outside of my realm.
• 21:04
  Of was it gross? It was just felt so technical,
• 21:07
  like medically sound it is. But to have the confidence to
• 21:11
  Pierce someone's balls straight through, I don't know if it was
• 21:14
  like, I didn't want to hurt somebody permanently.
• 21:17
  So I would never take that session, you know, like, yeah,
• 21:20
  if people wanted something, I, I felt like I had to be at least
• 21:23
  confident enough to not fuck somebody up for the rest of
• 21:27
  their life. I'm just thinking of like, as
• 21:29
  you say that, I'm thinking about the girl who allowed her clit to
• 21:32
  be pierced. Like, I lost a session to her
• 21:35
  because she was like, yeah, you can Pierce my clit.
• 21:38
  I asked her like, why would you do that?
• 21:40
  And she's like, I don't know, just wanted to see what it was
• 21:42
  like. And this woman had a boyfriend
• 21:44
  and everything. I'm like, is he not going to
• 21:46
  wonder why you're coming home with a pierced clit?
• 21:49
  Like these types of things of like, we don't know this guy.
• 21:51
  We don't know that he has any experience piercing Klitz.
• 21:54
  Totally. You know, I often wonder who
• 21:56
  still goes there. I remember one time going in for
• 22:00
  a meet and this guy had this bag of toys and he opened the bag
• 22:03
  and there were cockroaches in the bag.
• 22:05
  Oh God, I remember that guy. They kicked him out.
• 22:07
  They kicked him out because they knew him and he had brought
• 22:09
  cockroaches before. There's a rule there like no
• 22:12
  bugs and that was because of him.
• 22:14
  Like a real 1, not like one of the fake ones.
• 22:16
  Like show up on time. Be clean and sweet smelling.
• 22:20
  I remember sweet smelling. I was plenty of words.
• 22:22
  Owner didn't want people's sweet smelling.
• 22:24
  He was not the type, but he had some amazing equipment at that
• 22:27
  place. Like he had a wheel that would
• 22:29
  turn you upside that you'd strap yourself into.
• 22:31
  Yeah, it was a playground. He built his own playground.
• 22:34
  If I won the Lotto, I would make something exactly like that for
• 22:36
  myself. Like I said, the benefit was
• 22:39
  showing up to a fully stocked dungeon, absolutely no training,
• 22:43
  which was bad and good, but also you didn't have to advertise.
• 22:46
  They advertised for you. They were the safety for
• 22:49
  everyone. Asked me if I would do it
• 22:50
  outside and I always said no, just because it was so much
• 22:54
  work. If you had to do all that other
• 22:55
  stuff, it was worth it to me to take a pay cut.
• 22:58
  You know of $80.00 an hour? And that was criminally low.
• 23:02
  And we found other ways to make money.
• 23:03
  And I know a lot of people, there are a lot of people who
• 23:06
  are like, you did it for that little money, but the safety is
• 23:10
  what mattered so much. Like you couldn't really put a
• 23:12
  price on your own safety to know that you were walking in and
• 23:15
  walking out and you weren't walking out alone.
• 23:17
  Like at the end of the night, everyone left together at the
• 23:19
  end of your shift. You might leave at different
• 23:20
  times, but that was the middle of the day.
• 23:22
  If it was the end of the night, no one left until everyone left.
• 23:25
  So I know you wouldn't know you weren't like leaving at 2:00 AM
• 23:28
  in the morning it. Was too late.
• 23:29
  And sometimes if The only exception is if a client was
• 23:33
  there and staying beyond closing time, you would stay.
• 23:36
  I left that dungeon at 4:00 AM. Sometimes I had a guy who would
• 23:39
  like for me to smoke in front of him and I would smoke.
• 23:43
  You just basically chain smoke cigarettes and that.
• 23:45
  Was I said that session once? Sounds easy when you say it.
• 23:48
  Oh yeah, all you have to do is sit there and smoke, but you
• 23:50
  would be fucked up for the next. Two days.
• 23:52
  It was horrible. And then do you know who else
• 23:54
  was interesting? Twiggy, Tom.
• 23:56
  I never sessioned with him, I thought he got kicked out.
• 23:58
  No he didn't get kicked out. But I do remember the lore.
• 24:02
  We would all talk about it but I remember being told and all the
• 24:05
  session was was you were fully clothed and dancing in front of
• 24:08
  him like it was a strip club. But the reason he would go is
• 24:11
  because you can't openly do coke at a strip club and he would be
• 24:15
  messy with it. Right?
• 24:16
  A girl said he's super paranoid, don't go anywhere near the coke
• 24:20
  on the floor or the table because even though he's
• 24:23
  dropping it, he thinks you're trying to steal his coke.
• 24:26
  And that was a tweaky Tom session.
• 24:28
  You just twirled and danced for him and stayed away from his
• 24:30
  coke. I did not know that was a
• 24:32
  session. I don't think I ever saw him.
• 24:34
  I heard it like you said, the lore.
• 24:36
  I mean, and then there is this person's infamous, I'm using
• 24:38
  their name Mental Dental. I never saw him.
• 24:41
  I never saw him, couldn't get a session with him because my
• 24:45
  teeth weren't good enough. That was the thing.
• 24:47
  He needed real good teeth. He needed to show up.
• 24:49
  He'd look at your smile, you'd just know if you got it or not.
• 24:51
  And I knew I couldn't get it, but he just wanted you to
• 24:53
  pretend you were his dentist, all right?
• 24:55
  Any other weird clients? We could go on for hours.
• 24:58
  We probably could. I would recommend someone
• 25:01
  working at a dungeon like that if they were interested in this.
• 25:04
  Would you? Yeah, that was kind of what
• 25:06
  brought me there. I was interested in it and I
• 25:08
  thought it would be funny. I can't believe it ended up
• 25:10
  working for so long, but it worked for so long because it
• 25:12
  was so flexible. I was able to work around my
• 25:16
  schedule and it didn't matter if I made money or not because it
• 25:20
  was an extra job for me. It was like I had enough options
• 25:24
  to not make desperate decisions. I agree.
• 25:28
  I made certain decisions because I wanted to make more money and
• 25:31
  I did make good money there just by showing up and getting the
• 25:35
  Tippins and doing things like that.
• 25:37
  But also I had just moved to the US from Ireland less than a year
• 25:41
  before, so I didn't have a lot of friends.
• 25:43
  So these girls were my friends. I remember on Saturdays, if you
• 25:46
  came in just for a session you were leaving, I would convince
• 25:48
  you to stay and you would stay hours long.
• 25:50
  You're talking to me and I don't think anyone could understand.
• 25:53
  You never want to stay at your job after your shift is done,
• 25:55
  right? Right.
• 25:56
  But we've made real friendships and it was fun.
• 25:59
  I had fun. I feel like I learned a lot
• 26:01
  about myself and a lot of skills that help me beyond have nothing
• 26:06
  to do with BDSM but have everything to do with.
• 26:09
  Negotiation, relationships. Yeah.
• 26:11
  And I think just understanding, sometimes people aren't telling
• 26:14
  you the whole story and you kind of got to figure it out.
• 26:16
  Definitely, yes. A healthy dose of skepticism
• 26:19
  wherever you go. I feel like it helped me kind of
• 26:22
  not accept things as, as they came, you know, not making a
• 26:26
  snap judgement about something. And I think that helps a lot
• 26:29
  with the BTS subcommittee, you know, figuring out, OK, this
• 26:33
  sounds really taboo, and this sounds like something that
• 26:36
  normal people would scoff or recoil at, but I'm interested in
• 26:40
  why. It started my entire career path
• 26:44
  like that job at the time was just a way to make money and
• 26:47
  have fun. And now it's the foundation of
• 26:50
  my entire career in business is doing that work.
• 26:53
  I feel that it helped me a lot of things, especially in
• 26:55
  stealing myself for in seeing extreme situations.
• 27:00
  That's so true. I am fazed by so little now.
• 27:03
  You just kind of got to roll with it.
• 27:04
  Right. The major reaction usually is
• 27:06
  what is the negative part about it?
• 27:08
  If you can take a step out of it and let it kind of unfold first,
• 27:13
  you have more time to. Process.
• 27:16
  To react? Yeah, to react in a way that's
• 27:18
  not an extreme. I'm having this little montage
• 27:21
  in my head of different things, like it's in a world where
• 27:23
  everything gets normalized. Things you just realize, OK,
• 27:26
  this isn't so extreme, let's process what's happening and
• 27:29
  sort of learn to accept it totally.
• 27:32
  I don't know how you don't miss it.
• 27:33
  I'll tell you why, because once you head into like the seven or
• 27:36
  eight-year mark and the six, yeah, 678 year mark and you
• 27:39
  start seeing the same things happening over and over.
• 27:41
  And like I said, like I was getting passed up for people
• 27:44
  that were younger than me. And it was like, it's not only a
• 27:46
  blow to the ego, but it's also like when you don't make there,
• 27:49
  you're just sitting around. I started having relationships
• 27:53
  and it obviously effects relationships in a way that they
• 27:56
  can be not beneficial. But also like, I had other
• 27:59
  places I wanted to be for 8 hours.
• 28:00
  It's nice hanging out with girls that you like and that are there
• 28:04
  for a while. There are still girls there that
• 28:05
  I really liked, but then there was a bunch of new girls again
• 28:08
  that start a different dynamic. And when you're the only person
• 28:12
  that's been there for eight years and everybody else has
• 28:14
  been there for a week, you're like, yeah, if you were going to
• 28:18
  stick around. Do I want to invest in any
• 28:20
  relationships right now? There were waves even while I
• 28:23
  was there, just like these three month waves of we would get a
• 28:25
  bunch of young girls in who would go to a club after they
• 28:28
  got out and it was like that was that group.
• 28:30
  So, you know, it, it gets a little old and it definitely
• 28:34
  felt like that part of me was retiring and it was it was nice
• 28:37
  to say that I was a retired dog. One of the things I do remember
• 28:41
  sort of to your point of you have other places you want to
• 28:43
  be. The other thing is you also had
• 28:44
  other places you could be. So you started in 2010.
• 28:47
  I started in 2013 but there were girls that had been there from
• 28:51
  before the big financial crisis and they had given up good jobs
• 28:55
  because the money they were making as Dom's was so good that
• 28:58
  there was number other job that they could have gotten at the
• 29:01
  time. And I just remember talking to
• 29:03
  them about it now and they couldn't go back to those jobs
• 29:05
  or careers without starting over.
• 29:07
  And the money wasn't the same either as pre financial crisis.
• 29:11
  That's what scared me and made me really wary.
• 29:14
  And there were many weeks where I made more at the dungeon than
• 29:16
  I made at my actual job. I just remember thinking like,
• 29:19
  do not fall in love with this money, Amanda, because it could
• 29:21
  go away, right? Yeah.
• 29:23
  And to your point, you can age out.
• 29:25
  And I think a lot of women did stay.
• 29:26
  They upskilled to stay in the game, right?
• 29:28
  In ways that, like you kind of said, that was an option too for
• 29:31
  you if you wanted to. If you wanted to, you can start
• 29:34
  marketing yourself and you can go and start doing everything
• 29:37
  you want on your own. That's really the only real
• 29:40
  upscale you can do, unless you want to negotiate with the owner
• 29:43
  making more money. But.
• 29:44
  Which also they did and they had their rights to do it.
• 29:47
  They. Did totally, but if you're
• 29:48
  sitting there for 8 hours you're not guaranteed any work.
• 29:51
  And the probably disappointing thing to a lot of these people
• 29:54
  is we were all Doms, but many of us went out and were Subs to our
• 29:57
  boyfriends. Yeah, if we were dating, that
• 30:00
  was true. Did you date during your time
• 30:02
  working there? I did often.
• 30:04
  It was a a mixed bag of how it worked out.
• 30:07
  I feel like I was always teaching my boyfriends at the
• 30:10
  time things. Yeah, I would always be dating
• 30:13
  vanilla guys who were interested.
• 30:15
  I remember 1. I basically like showed him all
• 30:18
  the ropes. I gave him literally a little
• 30:20
  crash course in everything BDSM, anything you could think of.
• 30:24
  We ended up breaking up at one point.
• 30:26
  I found out he treated Later on I found out that he like goes to
• 30:29
  sex clubs now and specifically like.
• 30:31
  Asks. For what?
• 30:32
  Like so into it like so into it hardcore.
• 30:35
  I remember being like, I guess that's, I don't know, I guess
• 30:39
  that's fine. You just uncovered something.
• 30:41
  I mean, he wouldn't have kept doing it if he wasn't
• 30:43
  interested. There were so many, so many of
• 30:45
  them though, that like I felt like I would teach them
• 30:48
  everything and then they'd be like, all right, well, see you
• 30:50
  later. There were other things going
• 30:51
  on, obviously, but we were just talking about this.
• 30:53
  But one of the things that I really learned early on is that
• 30:57
  you do not say that you're a dominatrix on the 1st state.
• 30:59
  It does not workout that way. Good or bad or both?
• 31:02
  Mostly bad. I mean, for a while it was my
• 31:05
  joke that like, sometimes it'd be good, they'd be into it or
• 31:08
  they'd be into something, but it wouldn't be what I was into, so
• 31:11
  it wouldn't workout that way. But there were many people who
• 31:14
  had very bad reactions and it was like it was the first state
• 31:16
  killer. If I wanted to not see this
• 31:18
  person again, I would tell them that I was dominatrix and it
• 31:21
  would pretty much effectively kill.
• 31:22
  The entire oh, that's really funny.
• 31:24
  If I didn't want to see people again, I just told them that I
• 31:27
  was still married. Legally, I was.
• 31:30
  I wasn't divorced yet. I would never bring this out,
• 31:33
  ever. Like I would go on dates with
• 31:36
  people and just not tell them that this was what I did.
• 31:38
  Really. I was always like, I gotta get
• 31:41
  this out because I feel like it's a thing for people so they
• 31:44
  should know beforehand and that was not the way to go.
• 31:47
  I tell people on my first dates now that I'm kinky.
• 31:49
  I didn't tell people now because I'm so public about what I do.
• 31:52
  Like, what's your job? I'm the kink consultant.
• 31:54
  That's my job. Like I talk about this all the
• 31:56
  time. Does that make dating harder,
• 31:58
  you think? It definitely does because you
• 32:01
  get a split of people who are like, really interested in it.
• 32:03
  And it's like, how did you become that?
• 32:05
  And I'm like, go listen to episode 1 and two of the
• 32:07
  podcast. I don't want to be an asshole,
• 32:09
  but I'm also like, yeah, I can't keep doing this.
• 32:11
  Like, no one asks you how you became a lawyer.
• 32:14
  Do you know what I mean? But then for other people, it's
• 32:17
  like, oh, my God, you're great. This is so interesting.
• 32:19
  I could never date anyone so public about it, which is fair,
• 32:22
  right? But it makes it harder.
• 32:24
  Totally. Like I have this major crush on
• 32:26
  someone who has an issue with my job and it doesn't really affect
• 32:30
  us, but because it's like, OK, I've known that since the
• 32:33
  beginning. We know we're not going
• 32:34
  anywhere. But sometimes I think about it.
• 32:36
  I'm like I would never give up my job for this person but it's
• 32:39
  a constant reminder of my job does block certain things.
• 32:42
  Yeah, for sure. Funny enough, it was probably
• 32:45
  like 8 months to a year in when the conversation came up in the
• 32:49
  dungeon of are we sex workers or not?
• 32:52
  And I didn't even consider it. I like honestly did not even
• 32:55
  think that I was a sex worker. Really.
• 32:57
  At all. I had no constant of that.
• 32:59
  It didn't even occur to me that this was sex work, which is
• 33:02
  stupid. It's naive, but it was like, it
• 33:04
  wasn't until that conversation came up that I really had to
• 33:07
  reconcile, like, oh, I'm a sex worker.
• 33:09
  I'm not a prostitute. That's where the confusion comes
• 33:12
  in. We're not having sex with our
• 33:13
  clients, right? Weren't having sex with our
• 33:15
  clients like we would do cock and ball torture.
• 33:17
  So yeah, there was touching there, but we weren't bringing
• 33:19
  them to orgasm physically, right.
• 33:21
  But yeah, it's sex work. It's.
• 33:23
  Exactly what it is. And then you have to start
• 33:25
  reconciling because the philosophical questions would
• 33:28
  always come up of like, are we selling our bodies?
• 33:32
  And it's like, well, technically, yes.
• 33:34
  It's just sort of like the work we did did make us sex workers.
• 33:37
  I think if you are dominatrix, I think it's listed.
• 33:39
  But now I'm like, why do people not consider strippers sex
• 33:43
  workers? They they do OK, Yeah.
• 33:45
  I think so. I mean that in that conversation
• 33:47
  that came up as well. Well, I've always assumed that
• 33:49
  they were, but when I think about who's listed on coalitions
• 33:53
  of people fighting for sex workers rights, right, I'm like,
• 33:56
  are strippers on that list? I know dominatrix is our but I
• 33:58
  guess I lookout for that and I'm like Oh my.
• 34:00
  Job now, which is like a very public facing government job
• 34:05
  now. I had gotten into a huge
• 34:06
  argument with one of the guys there because they said like
• 34:09
  they were talking shit about strippers basically like that
• 34:12
  they were selling themselves like they were no better than
• 34:14
  prostitutes. I was kind of like, OK, but you
• 34:16
  go see strippers. So like, what's the deal here?
• 34:19
  Like why do you look down on them when you go and pay them
• 34:21
  for their services? He could not understand why I
• 34:24
  was fighting for this, this idea.
• 34:26
  He's like Berna. You've never been stripper,
• 34:30
  you've never been a prostitute, you've never done that.
• 34:32
  I can't out myself, you know, but it's like.
• 34:35
  I can have empathy. Maybe it's rough because it's
• 34:38
  hard. Once people decide about sex
• 34:40
  work, they have decided. And that was like kind of the
• 34:43
  part about the first dates. Once someone thinks that you're
• 34:47
  in this sex work BDSM world, their mind goes to something
• 34:51
  that you don't exactly know what it means because they don't know
• 34:54
  what the whole umbrella of that means.
• 34:57
  And they're going to key in on one specific thing that probably
• 35:00
  matters the most of them, positive or negative.
• 35:03
  Totally, totally. OK.
• 35:04
  I was on a date recently and obviously they know whether I
• 35:06
  do. But I mentioned having been a
• 35:08
  dominatrix and a pro sub and he was fine with the dominatrix
• 35:11
  thing, but he couldn't understand how a sub could be
• 35:14
  that. I explained that was a switch,
• 35:15
  but he also didn't understand how I could be a pro sub and not
• 35:20
  do anything sexual for anyone. And that told me a lot about him
• 35:23
  as a Dom because I was like, you're probably not the Dom for
• 35:26
  me if you can't stretch your imagination far enough to
• 35:30
  understand how we could play in a way that I'm submissive
• 35:32
  without me sucking a Dick or taking cock in any way, shape or
• 35:35
  form. And that was my joke for so long
• 35:38
  was that like, if you want to know what someone's into, tell
• 35:40
  them you're a pro Dom and they'll immediately tell you.
• 35:43
  Don't peg me exactly. That happened on a first date
• 35:46
  once. The guy said I'm not going to
• 35:47
  let you peg me after I said I was a pro Dom.
• 35:49
  It was like, oh, good to know I got a lot of information from
• 35:54
  the dungeon that informed my own personal sexuality.
• 35:57
  Same. There were things that I
• 35:59
  discovered that I really enjoyed.
• 36:00
  There were buttons I enjoyed being pushed and I've been able
• 36:04
  to take that into my own life and also just have these really
• 36:06
  amazing authentic experiences. My philosophy in life, as long
• 36:10
  as I'm having fun, I just want to make sure I'm having fun and
• 36:13
  then good things happen. Like even if it is me being at
• 36:16
  work, how do I make this fun? I was at the dungeon a much
• 36:19
  shorter amount of time than you, but I was again in that weird in
• 36:22
  between stage of all of the young ones would drop off and
• 36:25
  then it was just the ones who had been around 5 plus years.
• 36:28
  There was no in between other than that, except for the three
• 36:31
  years you were there by the time I got there.
• 36:33
  There are definitely good times, there are definitely many good
• 36:36
  relationships with the girls that I would say you're probably
• 36:39
  the only person I still really keep in contact with.
• 36:42
  And we do a good job of maybe one of us falls off because we
• 36:44
  now we live in different. Cities.
• 36:45
  But it's a very good time in my life.
• 36:47
  I don't consider it a bad time. Do I want to go back?
• 36:50
  No. It was the time that I was
• 36:51
  there. And I found a way to make that
• 36:53
  what I loved about that job. I found a way to bring it back
• 36:56
  into my life totally in a way that works for me.
• 36:58
  OK, say someone comes to you and says I want to be a dominatrix.
• 37:02
  What advice would you give them? Would you tell them to go work
• 37:04
  in a dungeon or do it themselves?
• 37:06
  Oh, 1000% go. I mean, if you're living in a
• 37:09
  major city that has a dungeon, if everything's already set up
• 37:12
  for you, it's so much easier to see how it's run.
• 37:16
  I mean. Learn so much.
• 37:17
  You learn so much and we were saying before the owner had a
• 37:20
  really good system set up. I had heard that they were not
• 37:23
  as good as ours. I don't know because I never
• 37:25
  worked there because I was always happy enough to stay
• 37:28
  where I was. We had a bad name that it was a
• 37:30
  tough place to work because we weren't as fancy or upscale as
• 37:34
  Pandora's and Pandora's had a club attached to it.
• 37:38
  The women were probably less caddy and a little less crazy.
• 37:41
  We were fast and loose sometimes with things like coke.
• 37:45
  I mean, I can't count the number of times someone would be like,
• 37:47
  do you want to bump like the girls working there?
• 37:50
  Very generous. That didn't fly at other places.
• 37:52
  And that kind of gave us a bad name.
• 37:54
  Even though I do think we were the most organized.
• 37:57
  I genuinely think we were the most protected group of women
• 38:00
  working. And it was never about that
• 38:02
  because I know that there were women who were not forced to do
• 38:04
  certain sessions, but you had to go nude if you were.
• 38:07
  Oh, yeah, there were dungeons. Awful.
• 38:09
  Yeah, there were dungeons like that.
• 38:10
  And we were really empowered to make our own choices.
• 38:13
  Yeah, thank God. Yeah, I would have been out.
• 38:15
  Would have been out on the nakedness.
• 38:16
  It's too much, too vulnerable, A complete stranger.
• 38:19
  I can't, I would say yes, go to a dungeon.
• 38:22
  I can't imagine someone starting everything from scratch.
• 38:26
  And not being vulnerable in many ways, I mean by the law
• 38:30
  enforcement, by the clients, by everything.
• 38:33
  It's risky. It would be so risky for me to
• 38:36
  say you should be a pro Dom if you're really into it and you
• 38:39
  want it to be fun, like just go to a sex party.
• 38:41
  It's my thought if you want to be a pro Dom, I wouldn't
• 38:44
  recommend it. I mean, I'd say majority of
• 38:47
  people live in a space that doesn't have a good dungeon
• 38:50
  that's a sip. Yeah, if you live in New York
• 38:52
  City and you can vet the dungeon, I know there are
• 38:54
  definitely private dungeons around where pro Doms own, you
• 38:59
  know, either houses or brownstones or whatever.
• 39:02
  And they've set them up like dungeons and they can, they rent
• 39:05
  out to themselves basically. Or they like with Yeah.
• 39:07
  They have their own little coalition.
• 39:08
  They're a group of people. Totally, if that's an option for
• 39:12
  sure, but the rest of it is just so risky to me.
• 39:15
  I think it's also a different landscape now Only fans has.
• 39:19
  Changed the game. It's an interesting thought
• 39:21
  right? Of like a pro Dom in a virtual
• 39:24
  sense. Yeah, that's such a different
• 39:26
  thing. You're safety is there.
• 39:27
  So that's. Yeah, that's easy.
• 39:28
  But I mean, but it's hard to. Get clients.
• 39:31
  I guess if you're motivated and that's like what you're
• 39:33
  interested in, it would workout well.
• 39:35
  The interesting part to me, and the part that was the learning
• 39:38
  experience was interacting with people in a private setting and
• 39:42
  trying to figure out their deepest, darkest desires in an
• 39:46
  hour and to deliver it in a way that was organic.
• 39:50
  And also that was like fun for you too and really hit all of
• 39:54
  their buttons. I can't imagine doing it to a
• 39:57
  screen. When I zoom alone, I like stare
• 39:59
  at my face and it's like, oh God, I can't stand, you know,
• 40:02
  like it's like too much. I'm like staring at myself for
• 40:05
  an hour and it's like, you can't interact with that to be in a
• 40:08
  room with someone. It was an interesting part to me
• 40:10
  it. Was energy exchange.
• 40:12
  Yeah, I agree with that. And I know people who do it
• 40:14
  because there are certain things that you can do from afar, like
• 40:17
  chastity or Yeah, they're verbal humiliation, degradation.
• 40:21
  There was something special about being in the room with
• 40:22
  someone. And impact.
• 40:23
  I think we both enjoy impact play.
• 40:25
  I enjoy giving and receiving in sessions.
• 40:27
  You definitely gave. You can't do that online,
• 40:30
  obviously. Stuff like chassis I can't
• 40:32
  imagine doing something from afar.
• 40:34
  It just doesn't make sense to me.
• 40:36
  I was always a very touchy person in general.
• 40:38
  Like I would still want to interact with a person.
• 40:41
  Same. I can't imagine personally
• 40:43
  making a whole dungeon scenario or a dominatrix hour long zoom
• 40:48
  meeting Basically only fans. Neither but the.
• 40:51
  Being naked part was not interesting to me.
• 40:53
  The being exposed on my end wasn't interesting.
• 40:56
  It was like it was always the psychological of their end was
• 40:59
  what was important to me personally, you know, So it was
• 41:02
  like different, different strokes for different folks for
• 41:04
  sure. For why you want to be a Dom.
• 41:06
  You kind of have to know that to know whether or not.
• 41:09
  That's such a high level thing of post nut clarity.
• 41:13
  When I was 21 I didn't understand any of that.
• 41:16
  I just thought it would be funny and interesting to beat people.
• 41:20
  I know you start off like that same person that we're sort of
• 41:23
  annoyed at when relieved. Very last question, do you have
• 41:28
  a favorite session? One specific session that stands
• 41:31
  out in your mind is. That was the most fun session
• 41:33
  I've ever done. There was way too many to say
• 41:35
  that, but there's always so many realizations that came from so,
• 41:40
  so many different people that I never would have thought I would
• 41:43
  have had fun, you know, like, yeah, I'll never forget walking
• 41:46
  home from work after I pissed in someone's mouth for the first
• 41:50
  time and thinking, I can't believe my excrement just made
• 41:53
  me money. And it was like the funniest,
• 41:55
  like happiest I could have ever been in my life.
• 41:57
  I was always like, how do I do the least for the most amount of
• 42:00
  money? And.
• 42:01
  Being in someone's mouth. Was like, oh, I do that anyway,
• 42:04
  but like the gross out sessions weren't always my favorite, but
• 42:07
  like rest, I always had a good time with people.
• 42:11
  I always thought it was fun and it related to a lot of my like
• 42:15
  other pieces of my life. I just had a lot of fun with a
• 42:18
  lot of people that old dudes that I never would have
• 42:21
  interacted with in the real world.
• 42:23
  The interactions with people who you would never meet anywhere
• 42:25
  else. Yeah, totally.
• 42:27
  Yeah, It was all over the place, but it was always interesting.
• 42:30
  That was the good part. That's like the one good thing I
• 42:32
  can say about it. Never a dull day because even if
• 42:36
  there weren't a lot of clients, some interest, interesting shit
• 42:39
  was going on between at least two of the girls that made it
• 42:42
  interesting. All right, Verna, thank you so
• 42:45
  much for coming on. It was really nice to sort of
• 42:47
  like take this long intricate walk down memory.
• 42:50
  Lane, thanks for having me. If you enjoyed this episode,
• 42:55
  don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with
• 42:58
  anyone who might find it interesting.
• 42:59
  And if you have any questions or topics you'd like me to cover in
• 43:02
  future episodes, feel free to reach out.
• 43:04
  E-mail info@thekingconsultant.com.
• 43:07
  Until next time, keep on kinking on.