Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Unmasking the Narcissist: The 5 Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life (Part 5)
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:05): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those involving someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host, bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:23): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:25): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California where we focus on training, consulting, coaching classes, and educational programs and methods all to do with high conflict. So today is episode six of our five types of people who can Ruin Your Life series this time focusing on narcissistic high conflict people and their involvement in domestic violence, if any. But before we start, please send your questions to@highconflictinstitute.com, anytime, or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast. Also anytime where you'll also find all the show notes and links for today's episode and all the episodes. Speaker 1 (01:18): All right, bill, welcome back. We missed You last week when I did an episode of Asked and Answered and tried to answer some listener questions. Hopefully they were okay. But today we're going to talk about narcissistic HCPs and in your book, five types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life. Now, we started in association with this podcast. We started talking about the antisocial high conflict people and borderline high conflict people, and then followed up about those two and their involvement, if any in domestic violence. This week we're focusing on narcissistic personality disorder, high conflict people, and like I said earlier, if they have involvement in domestic violence or not. So Bill, you titled this chapter in the five types book, the I'm Superior, you are Nothing. Type and start the chapter with, do you know someone who thinks they're better than everyone else and seems bent on proving it over and over again and always at other people's expense? Maybe you were termed by them at first, but now find them acting superior to you or entitled to special treatment. Perhaps you feel they've sabotaged you or blamed you for something in their quest to get ahead or gain prestige and attention. These are all hallmarks of a narcissistic, high conflict person. And to have a personality disorder according to the dsm, someone must have significant social impairment and or internal distress. So Bill, break that down for us. What does that mean, social impairment and or internal distress? Speaker 2 (03:05): Well, this is a threshold issue for all personality disorders in the diagnostic manual. And of course, let me just make sure people know we're not teaching you to diagnose anybody and don't tell anybody you think they have a narcissistic personality disorder. Even though nowadays it's very popular to say you're a narcissist. No, you're a narcissist. But that's not usually accurate and it's not helpful. So take this as background information. Social impairment is considered in the workplace, in close relationships in the community that to have a personality disorder, you have social impairment and or internal distress. Now that's real hard to measure, but some people really show it on their face. They're constantly angry, afraid, sad, but other people don't show that. Whereas social impairment is usually more obvious. And the DSM says it's usually in more than one setting. So maybe they have conflicts with neighbors and also conflicts with coworkers. Or it may be they have conflicts with the police and conflicts with supervisors at work. So that's true for all the personality disorders because personality disorder is basically a dysfunctional interpersonal behavior that doesn't change it's, that doesn't change that makes it a disorder. And the interpersonal is the personality part. So that's the threshold question before, is this person meet the criteria specifically for narcissistic personality? Speaker 1 (04:56): So they have to be, have five or more of the nine criteria to be diagnosed, correct for narcissistic personality disorder. But of those three key characteristics of narcissists are particularly present in those who are high conflict. So let's talk about these first. They see themselves as very superior to everyone else, especially those around them. True, Speaker 2 (05:21): Yes. And so this shows up especially in close relationships like dating marriage, but also in the workplace. So this personality is common in the workplace as difficult sometimes as an employee, but often as a supervisor because they're attracted to positions where they can be seen as superior to the people around them. Speaker 1 (05:49): And that's important. I mean, it's how they're seen. I need to be seen and perceived as important or knowing all wise or the best. Speaker 2 (06:00): Yes, the image is very important, and this is one of the things that's special about narcissistic personality compared to the others in that they fairly early in life start developing a false self. And so this false self is supposed to kind of help them through life to feel superior rather than maybe they feel inferior, maybe they're abused, maybe things don't go well for them. So they create the false self and try to fulfill that. But they need the people around them to help fulfill that. So they want admiration, they want status, they want in companies. They'll step on people to go move up like their coworkers. They'll say, I get credit for what that person did instead of that person. And if something goes wrong, it's always somebody else's fault, not their fault. Speaker 1 (07:02): Yeah. It's like they just can't tolerate it's feeling like anything is their fault or that they can take responsibility for it. And it's not a conscious thought, it's just how they are. Right? Speaker 1 (07:16): Yeah. I think of a recent example of this where someone who's been quite successful in life has seen their life crashing around them recently in every way you can imagine, financially, relationally, jobs, everything, and very unrealistic efforts moving to move forward and climb out of a whole. But while doing this just kind of throws out there, oh, I'm going to submit myself for a MENSA test and IQ test soon because I I've really got it here. And what does this have to do with problem solving? But it's that attempt to just constantly not feel inferior. Speaker 2 (07:56): Yes. And the constant that you said is real important because nobody really is superior to everybody else. Some people are better at this, some people are better at that, but as a person, we're pretty equal. And so they have to create kind of a false set of people below them, and no one really likes that, but they're constantly getting knocked down from looking superior. And so their coping mechanism is to be constantly putting themselves back up. And so it's a constant process and frankly, it's irritating to the people around them because they're being used to put this person up by them putting them down. So you get constant stream of insults, constant stream of blame. And actually this is a difference with the narcissistic high conflict person and the narcissistic person who isn't high conflict. The high conflict person blames other people for their setbacks and such. The not high conflict person just tries to say, I'm superior and keeps saying I'm superior. I'm superior. But they're not blaming other people. And maybe I've met a lot of narcissists and worked with some in counseling who aren't high conflict, but they're stuck in life. They have to keep this image, and they know they can't keep the image, and it's hard. Speaker 1 (09:31): That's really interesting. And really it defines, I guess, helps us understand that it's the blame that is a tell, right? It's a tell that perhaps this person has a high conflict personality, so I might have to do something differently. So we can look at, I think it's interesting, we got the blame, and then you add in that constant piece of them is maybe abusing others or using others abuse or use. Is that true? Speaker 2 (10:04): Yes. Yes. Both of those, the using is pretty comprehensive. They're not all abusive. And the research that says in terms of the domestic violence, for example, that borderline and antisocial are the ones that stand out the most. But narcissists, as you'll hear, have traits similar to borderline or traits similar to antisocial. And they do. Some are abusive, but many narcissists aren't abusive, but they're using people to look good. So let's say they marry somebody beautiful and they're putting them in front, oh, look who I married someone. That's perfect, but then you got to be ready for the switcheroo because they're not going to be perfect. And now the narcissist has to show themselves as superior to this person. And so you get people, and I've done divorces like this. I've helped some really beautiful people get divorced from narcissists, and the narcissist totally turns on them and now uses them in public, see what a mess she is or see how stupid she is or see, and you go, well, wait a minute. Speaker 2 (11:20): I thought you were putting them up on a pedestal and they were to make themselves look good, but when something happened and it didn't make them look as good, now they have to put that person down and be superior to that wonderful person. So there's a constant kind of up and down roller coaster for people around narcissists. And this is true in business too. They'll get a job with someone that looks really good and they'll say, how wonderful it is. I work with so-and-So then next thing you know, oh, I quit that place. They were no good jerk. And you find out they were actually fired maybe, Speaker 1 (12:00): Right? Yeah, yeah. Alright, so the second one is feeling entitled to special treatment so that the rules do not apply to them Speaker 2 (12:08): Because they're superior. They shouldn't have rules, there shouldn't be rules. People around them should defer to them that it's fine that you do whatever you want because special. And what's interesting is we've done trainings and consultation in the tech industry and they have people like this who I'm supposed to be above the rule. Why do I have to come in to work at a certain time? Or why can't I park in the special parking place and why don't I get to take time off for whatever I want whenever I want it because I'm brilliant and I've contributed a lot to this company. And the companies often bend over backwards for some of these really brilliant people. It's hard for the other people around. They call them sharp elbows. And I love that phrase because it's kind of make room for me. And that's a narcissistic theme is make room for me. I'm more important than you. Speaker 1 (13:15): I like that. The third one is lacks empathy. So can be very insulting and demanding to others often in public, which I think is very important. So what is it about that public piece that they do? This is it. They need to be seen by others, obviously, right? As special and important. Speaker 2 (13:36): Well, if they're superior people, they have to be superior to a lot of people. So that's why we see them attracted to business. We see them in the workplace trying to look superior to their coworkers, but they also in public, some of them are really wanting to look superior in a bigger way. You may see this in public figures, you may see this in politics, certainly you see this in business, certainly Speaker 1 (14:06): Healthcare, Speaker 2 (14:09): Higher education. Speaker 2 (14:11): They build little kingdoms within healthcare and within higher education. And I know because I've worked for some of these kingdoms in healthcare and higher education, and because those two particular fields are known as helping fields, helping professionals, and they're nice to people. And so they have a higher tolerance for high conflict behavior and a higher tolerance for narcissists. Like they'll say, oh, he's wonderful. And yet the people that work under him say, he's really bossy. He's terrible. Why don't they fire him? But the upper management thinks this person is wonderful. And that can happen with department heads and administrators Speaker 1 (15:02): Kiss up, kick down, Speaker 2 (15:04): Yes, kiss up, kick down. It's very much like that. But I want to emphasize that majority of administrators, the majority of department heads are not high conflict personalities. We're talking about maybe 10% of people. So I don't want to say, but maybe it's 11 or 12% in healthcare and higher education because they attract people that want to be powerful and they tolerate people often too long. They may, I think of examples where there's been a person, pretty likely narcissistic who has been told, you have to improve your behavior or you may be let go. And the person instead of improving their behavior turns around and sues the company and it's like they can't stand. It's a narcissistic injury to be told you have to improve your behavior. So it's not unusual that you see people not agreeing to improve their behavior, but counter attacking the organization or the company or the spouse of the people around them Speaker 1 (16:18): And not caring whatsoever how it impacts people. And that's where the lack empathy piece comes in. And we want to think that everyone has a little empathy for others. And perhaps this person does have empathy in some situations, but not when it's feeling like they are inferior. So in those situations, they're not going to give a damn about how you feel about anything. Speaker 2 (16:43): Exactly. Speaker 1 (16:44): It's all about me. Speaker 2 (16:46): And if they're on the defensive and putting themselves up, it doesn't matter who they step on to get there. And sometimes they'll say later, I remember we were talking about healthcare. So I worked as a clinical social worker in a hospital. And I remember one day there was a doctor who I thought had some of these traits who at a public meeting, he hadn't done something right. And at the public meeting he said that I hadn't provided the information or I hadn't notified him of something or I hadn't done it. And I remember after the meeting, I was walking down the hall and I come up to him, I said, what's that about? And he says, oh, don't take it personally. It's like I did because it was me who he blamed, and it was he who avoided responsibility by blaming me. And so I got to have that experience. Speaker 2 (17:49): I mean, I got that as a clinical social worker. I think nurses get that even more. But also while we're on healthcare very briefly, nurses, women tend to bully the women, and the men tend to bully the men. And in a sense, that's what happened to me. And I didn't know that until I did some research on the healthcare area. But anybody listening in healthcare will probably say, yep, that's what I've experienced, or that's what I've seen. But narcissists, I would suggest more prevalent in healthcare and also more prevalent in higher education. So these are industries, if you want to call them that, that attract this personality because they do get to look superior, and their contributions may be very superior, bringing in millions of dollars in surgeries, bringing in millions of dollars to departments, building new departments in higher education. So these are areas where this seems to be higher incidents, but still the majority of people are not. And I want to make that point clear. Speaker 1 (18:59): And I've worked with some doctors who were identified as high conflict, but with a little bit of coaching, what we uncovered is that they didn't have a high conflict personality. They were just hyperfocused at work and wanted to do the best job, and they were just completely thinking about the task that needed to be done. And so they weren't working on the relationships with those around them, say nurses or techs or whoever else is in the room, and they were coming across as high conflict, but that key was their blame in there where their unmanaged emotions. So we have to kind of look at all those things, and once the doctors understand that, wow, I just need to work a little bit on the relationships with them, ask them how their day was, say, Hey, I like your shoes, or something like that, then you kind of can see that, okay, this person's just really focused and you can have conversations about that. So there is a difference. Speaker 2 (19:58): There really is a range. So some are really unreachable, unchangeable, but some coaching really can bring them around. And they may even just have traits. And I like to give the example, I think briefly of Steve Jobs, who many people said was narcissistic, and yet I don't know that he had a personality disorder. He may have had traits because a disorder really people aren't going to change, or it's very unlikely. But he was able to change. He got fired by Apple in the 1990s, and then he came back a little more able to work with people and more able to listen to his management team. And he was very successful, perhaps because he had this drive and some of these traits that he believed in himself, but he would not have been as successful if he didn't have a good management team, and he didn't have some flexibility. So I like him as an example of someone that could have been worked with and was worked with to some extent. Speaker 1 (21:07): Good. Yes. That's a great one to bring up. So let's talk stats. You state in the book that NPD is the most common of the five high conflict personality disorders, the NA, national Institutes of Health study, which had around 20 million people in it from 2008, indicated that more than 6% of the general population in the United States has the disorder, which is more than 22 million people. Do you think that number is still accurate now that we're several years on? Speaker 2 (21:41): Oh boy, it's probably a little bit higher. Our society is really reinforcing and rewarding people who see themselves as superior. And this may, I don't know if it's fair to say this, but I think things like TikTok attract people that want to show themselves as special and that there's a drive. So I think that's another place that attracts narcissists who put themselves out there, even if they aren't that good. But also my guess is vast majority are not, certainly don't have narcissistic personality disorder, but it's an attractive place because you get to be, and you can say how many million people you have. I mean, there's good people that get a lot of millions of people too. So it's an interest interesting dynamic, but yes. Speaker 1 (22:36): Okay. Did the newer DSM figures align with that number? Speaker 2 (22:41): Well, the DSM says 6.2% from that big study you mentioned, but it also mentions other studies. And so they don't like these high numbers, but yet the DSM, if you went back to the DSM four, they had 1% for narcissistic. And so I think that was way underestimated Speaker 1 (23:08): For sure. Speaker 2 (23:10): But yeah, I think the 6.2 is probably realistic, if not a little higher. Speaker 1 (23:15): And the report also found that 62% with narcissistic personalities or disorder are men, and 38% are women. Is this absolute, Speaker 2 (23:25): Well, I think I read more and more how they think that there's an increase in female narcissists with this, and I think so. And what's interesting is all these personalities seem to be coming closer together gender wise, because our culture really rewards men and women for being narcissistic or being outstanding in public, which is what narcissists want. We want to be outstanding in public. And so these personality disorders are equal opportunity nowadays, it seems. Speaker 1 (24:03): Yeah, the great leveler. Right. Alright, now let's talk about the difference between two types of narcissistic high conflict people. And you tell me it's there are, but the grandiose and the vulnerable narcissists Speaker 2 (24:18): There really, and there's a lot of research that talks about this split. So the, the superiority seems to have two kind of directions to it. So I'll start with the vulnerable narcissist. The vulnerable narcissists is the one that therapists are most familiar with and that we talk about the most. The person that had maybe abuse in a childhood and developed a false stealth to kind of cover the fact that they were really treated badly, have a sense of shame. They have a core of shame. And therapists for decades have talked about that. And so this personality can be, in some ways more similar to borderline. So they have what we call a narcissistic injury, something that makes 'em not look so superior, and then they get angry about that. We think of that as hot anger. They're reactive, they're more vulnerable and more reactive. On the other hand, some narcissists seem to be almost invulnerable, at least on the surface and grandiose, I'm just so superior, I'm not even going to react to you. And so we think of them as more similar to the antisocial personality, and there's some crossover there. So some of the grandiose narcissists also have antisocial traits or personality disorder. They're less vulnerable, but they do want to get revenge. They're going to get it next week, not this week when you're expecting it. And Speaker 1 (26:01): Oh, so it's more planned and calculating? Speaker 2 (26:04): Yes, yes. There's a word instrumental that they're purposeful and such in there. So Speaker 1 (26:11): I'll get even next week. Speaker 2 (26:13): Right. In a sense, I picture it as kind of predatory, like a lion stalking their victim until they're ready to pounce, but their victim doesn't know this is coming. And so they're more predatory. Whereas the vulnerable narcissists are more reactive and obvious, and it's like you can tell right away they're really upset, but the grandiose narcissist keeps it inside. And maybe I'll build a better company. I had a mediation once between people that left one company to build another. The first one, the guy was quite narcissistic. So in that case, they were getting away from the narcissist. But there's also cases where people say, well, I'll get you. I'm going to build a better company. And then they try to put the other first one out of business maybe. So there's a competitive predatory aspect to the grandiose narcissist. Speaker 1 (27:15): Fascinating. So just like we talked about in the other two episodes, borderline and antisocial the questions about lying, will the narcissist lie and is there a difference between the grandiose and vulnerable? Speaker 2 (27:31): Well, I really think that, I mean, all the personality disorders lie more than average based on their personality needs. So borderline lies to keep relationships, anti-social lies to get more money or dominance in power. Narcissists lie to keep their image up, but they don't necessarily lie a lot because they exaggerate and they're more successful because they're not blatantly lying. They're exaggerating. And so it's feasible that this is the best ever at this business. But they'll lie to keep their image up Speaker 1 (28:15): As long as it looks good, as long as they look good to someone else, then the line is justified. Speaker 2 (28:22): So they'll lie early in a relationship to get someone who is probably not going to be happy with them in the long run. But if there was a difference, and I really don't know, and I don't know that there's any research on lying by grandiose narcissists versus vulnerable, but what I would say is vulnerable narcissists are probably less likely to lie because they're so out there, they're out in the open, I'm angry at you because you insulted me and I can't be insulted. I'm a narcissist. They can insult others, but they can't take it very thin skinned. They're more just out there with what's really happening. Grandiose narcissists may be lying in order to promote a scheme, but they certainly don't lie as much as antisocial. And that's the thing I want to say, antisocial. If someone lies a lot, you're probably looking at an antisocial personality disorder because deception, lying and conning is one of the criteria of that personality. Speaker 1 (29:27): Yeah. Yeah. That's part of the job description. I lie because this is my recipe, and they'll lie when they know they can get caught. That's always one for me. That is, I look for that. So then one last one, and then we'll take a break apologizing. Will the narcissistic eye conflict person apologize authentically? Speaker 2 (29:50): Well, that's pretty unlikely because they're superior, so they shouldn't have to be, being a narcissist means never having to say you're sorry. And being high conflict generally means that, so don't expect them to apologize. And they may be insulted if you ask them to apologize, because that's putting themselves down and they can't put themselves down. They're so invested in putting themselves up. Now, I think an exception to that is when they have to look good, and so something happened and I'm sorry, but they're more likely to say, I'm sorry, you feel bad about how important I am, that they kind of reword it. So it's the non-Apology. Apology. Speaker 1 (30:49): Sorry, not sorry. Speaker 2 (30:50): Yeah. Or gritted their teeth. If you don't say you're sorry, you're fired. Alright. I guess I'm sorry. Yeah. But their behavior will show that they're not really sorry, so I wouldn't expect that. And they wouldn't seek that with a narcissist. It's a waste of time. You just get a false apology at best and get an escalation of conflict at worse. Speaker 1 (31:15): Oh gosh. I hear so often people say, I am not moving on in this relationship until I get an apology. Well, guess what? You're not moving on. Speaker 2 (31:24): That's what the narcissist will say. They'll want you to apologize, but you shouldn't. Don't seek an apology and don't give a false apology. Talk about what you want in the future if there's a problem, because you're not going to get an apology about the past. Speaker 1 (31:41): Right. Yeah. Other people will give you that, but not this person. Alright, let's take a quick break and we'll be back to talk about domestic violence and NPD. High conflict people. Alright, we are back. So Bill, is it common for those with narcissistic high conflict personalities to be involved in domestic violence? Speaker 2 (32:11): Well, the answer is they're more involved in domestic violence than the average person. And all the personality disorders apparently are, there's research that shows that now this research shows that borderline and antisocial personalities are the most prevalent in the domestic violence of the 10 personality disorders. But narcissist is more than average. And what we see is similar domestic violence to that of borderline and antisocial. So the vulnerable narcissist that we just talked about have the hot reactive anger. They feel a narcissistic injury, they feel insulted or threatened, and so they strike out more impulsively, reactively. And so that's the kind of domestic violence you see with them. With the grandiose narcissist, you may see the more planned reaction a week later. It's not the hot reactive, it's a cold. I don't know if I want to say predatory because antisocial personalities are more predatory, but a narcissist will kind of store in the back of the mind, okay, I'm going to get them when I get around to it or when I'm in a better position, then I'll show them how inferior they are and superior I am. Speaker 1 (33:45): So Speaker 2 (33:46): They may think of, there may be a public meeting next week, maybe the company, maybe the department's having a meeting next week. It's a great opportunity to humiliate this person who you feel disrespected you if you're a narcissist. Yeah, Speaker 1 (34:03): Ouch. Yeah. Yeah. But it's very normal, a very normal thinking for them. It's just how they think. Speaker 2 (34:09): Yeah. Speaker 1 (34:10): How about stalking? Speaker 2 (34:12): Could be, if there's an incentive for them, they let go of relationships much more easily than say borderline. So they're less likely to stalk than borderline. But I wouldn't rule it out, especially a vulnerable narcissist that's like, you may have to pay for this. You've made me look bad. And so they could engage in stalking. They may feel threatened, certainly by a new relationship. Their partner maybe got divorced from them, and now they may be in a new relationship and they want to check up on them, but it's not as significant, I would say with narcissists as with borderline where there's a lot of stalking. Speaker 1 (34:59): You mentioned that there's a difference between the narcissistic and the borderline and that narcissists are able to let the relationships go much more easily. And why is that? Speaker 2 (35:12): Well, because they're going to move on. They're not dependent in the same way that a borderline would be dependent on a partner, because in a sense, narcissists don't get that close. Borderline can get close and they can care and they have empathy. And so if a relationship blows up, it's a bigger loss to them. For a narcissist, it's like, oh, I'll go somewhere else. Speaker 1 (35:39): Moving Speaker 2 (35:40): On. Yeah, you weren't that important to me anyway, Speaker 1 (35:44): And that's got to be crushing for the partner who's left behind because they thought they had a close relationship and that it was a mutually adoring relationship, I guess. And for the narcissistic brain, it's saying, no, I can just move on. Right? Speaker 2 (36:01): Yeah. So one of the trickiest couples for divorcing is the narcissist and borderline couple, because the narcissist is like, Hey, I'm out of here. And the borderline, no, you're not. And they're kind of this dance back and forth. And when they end up in family court, this is one of the most common combinations in high conflict divorces where the person with borderline traits is really trying to hold on, and the person with narcissist traits is trying to get away. And so in court they can be very demeaning and disdainful and disparaging about their former spouse because they're moving on. Speaker 1 (36:45): That has to be just devastating for the former spouse if they have BPD, right? Speaker 2 (36:49): That's Speaker 1 (36:49): Just got to be soul crushing, Speaker 2 (36:51): Especially because people with BPD are often very attracted to narcissists because they look wonderful and they create an image of themselves that often fulfills the image that the borderline person is looking for in someone that thinks they're really special and borderline people tend to idealize and then devalue, but narcissistic people, that false self can make them look very appealing in getting into a relationship. And then when the narcissist turns on the person with borderline and puts them down or wants to let them go, then you've got borderline rage and you get this push pull effect. And it's sad because I believe this is mostly driven unconsciously, maybe even from birth or early childhood, these patterns. And people just get stuck in these quicksand of high conflict divorces driven by the personalities. Now, I'm not saying everybody in a high conflict divorce has two people with a personality disorder, many cases, maybe half it's one person, but with the narcissist and a borderline, when there's domestic violence, the borderline's pushed away by the violence but wants to hold onto the relationship. Speaker 2 (38:21): And so there's a coming and going see borderline kind of in and out their cycles up and down. Whereas narcissists is more, I'm out of here. It's a little more one way, and they'll do what it takes to get away, including disparaging their former spouse in really mean terms. So it's interesting dynamics, and if people don't understand this stuff, they totally miss the dynamics. And they might go, oh, she's really being a jerk. She's trying to hold onto him when you find out that he was really being a jerk and that she believed in who he was, but now doesn't know what to do. So people get blamed for each other's behavior with high conflict people. So good at that. Speaker 1 (39:11): What are some signs that your partner may have a narcissistic high conflict personality and in a way that should make you concerned about your safety? Perhaps? Speaker 2 (39:23): I wouldn't be as concerned about safety with narcissists as say, borderline or antisocial, but potentially the thing you want to watch out for is their superior attitude, letting you get into situations where you might be harmed, even if not by them. And with the safety stuff, it's often keeping track of times of high risk. So divorcing a narcissist, that's a big, huge narcissistic injury. And I think the statistic is seven times more likely to get murdered at the time of separation than during the relationship. So if you're separating, make sure you're in a safe place when you're sending the message that you no longer want to be with this narcissistic person. And that's true with borderline and antisocial as well. If you know this pattern exists, you want to get to a safe place before you pull the plugin, trigger the narcissistic injury, because that narcissistic injury is when you may get violence with a narcissist, and especially the vulnerable narcissists, so reactive, but a grandiose narcissist may feel like they have to punish someone. And so all of this is kind of patterns. You see the narcissistic pattern of putting you down or putting other people down, that's probably one of the bigger warning signs that they can demean people in this way show disdain and disrespect in this way. Then they may not care if they caused some injury at some point. Speaker 1 (41:14): Yeah, it could turn towards you. And don't be surprised if suddenly that person has a new partner very quickly. Right? Speaker 2 (41:26): Oh yeah. Narcissists are always looking for admiration from other people. And actually what you see, it's not unusual that you have them in a marriage say, but they're also having an affair. I remember working in group therapy and chemical dependency treatment program in psychiatric hospital years and years ago, and there was a guy that said, I have three girlfriends, and they don't understand me. They know about each other. There's no lying. Everything's out in the open, and they just don't understand. I have more needs than the average person, and so I have to have at least three relationships going at any time to fill my needs. So how narcissist can you get to tell people that they need to share you to fill your needs? And that was quite blatant in that case, and the group gave them feedback that you're a narcissist. Speaker 1 (42:36): It brings to mind a certain television show that's been on for many, many years now with this exact scenario. So we don't want to take domestic violence lightly, and we don't want to alarm anyone unnecessarily either, but watch for patterns and think about is this behavior that other people do? Do I see this in relationships with people that I view them as having a solid, good relationship where it's protective, it's safe, it's not abusive, right. There's no put downs. So any last thoughts on that Bill? What would you say to someone if you are listening to this podcast and you think, wow, this sounds really familiar in my life, what should they do? What steps can a person take? Speaker 2 (43:27): Well, I think first of all, they should have the domestic violence hotline number, which will be in the show notes. Secondly, I would say talk to a lawyer and or talk to a therapist so you've got someone to talk to really understand the situation you're in and what your options are for dealing with it. As with all these situations, you want to figure things out before, if you decide, I'm going to give notice to a relationship that you want to get this figured out before that announcement comes. Now, if the other person wants to divorce you and narcissists often initiate the divorce because they're ready to move on, then still go to a lawyer, go to a therapist, get information, understand what you're doing. Also, I might mention read the book Splitting the one I did with Randy Krieger that really talks about before, during, and after a divorce with someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder, because people all the time tell me it predicts what happened in the case, but it also showed what to do when these things happen. So that's real helpful. Speaker 1 (44:47): Good. Well, we'll put that link in the show notes as well. So we've gone a little bit longer than usual today with the Personality Awareness Tools. In this chapter of the Five Types book, it'll get easier for you to spot narcissistic HCPs early on and avoid relationships with them or manage your contact with them with some increased confidence. And if you do let someone like this or more than someone like this into your life, do so with Eyes wide open to the realities you'll face and the work you'll need to do to manage their high conflict tendencies. Speaker 1 (45:30): Thank you for listening today. We hope this has been helpful. We do have two more episodes in our five type series, one on antisocial or on histrionic personalities, and one on paranoid personalities. But we're going to have two other episodes first. The first one will be with our special guest, Rebecca Zung, to also continue this discussion on narcissistic personalities and followed by an asked and answered episode where we answer your questions. In the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Until next time, keep learning and practicing. Be kind to yourself and others while we all try to keep the conflict small and find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show notes and transcripts at True Story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.