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Matt Seddon - Everything I've Learned From Interviewing The Best Athletes In The World · Total Barnage

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Matt Sedden, professional running coach, podcaster, broadcaster, race director, and Premier League promotion hopeful.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how I should refer to you today?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Have you got any other cards up your sleeve?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Which one means the most to you?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Premier League Hopeful.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, we would joke that one comes in.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: We were joking off air.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: We were joking off air, actually.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really enjoying watching West Ham of the Championship purely because you know we're we're battering the likes of Wrexham 6-0.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: I I watched the Wolves game where we won, battered them.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think it's going to be quite a fun season.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: I could get used to it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, have you ever thought, you know, obviously as a as a podcaster and interviewer, have you ever thought about going into switching sports?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Who would you like to interview on the on the football side of things?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: He's on the top of my head mind at the moment because I'm watching his documentary, but Jose Mourinho.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: What would you ask him?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: That is, yeah, what what would I ask Mourinho?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think he's he's a bit of a he's a bit of a killer, he's a bit of a winner.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, some people don't like the way he wins, um, some people definitely don't like the way that he he speaks about players, about other teams, but I you know it's he's he's an antagonist at the end of the day, and I think he loves to create a a you uh a me versus you narrative and I I do kind of respect that in sport.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: I've always been drawn to just those big those big matchups, you know.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: I I want people to really have a real fire against one another when they compete, and so I've as Mourinho as a manager, I have always enjoyed that side to him, and so I I would probably just ask him, you know, why you know something around that, you know, what why he does sort of antagonize the oppositions, why he acts the way he does on the touchline, and yeah, love or hate him, I think he's definitely been an influential figure in the sport of football.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think he, you know, he he is.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think when someone's at the seat of so many memes, then they're obviously doing something right, you know.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly, and also I I actually really enjoy what his career has stood for because he was never a professional football player, and sport in general is filled with people who have been professionals, and it's an easy pathway for them to step into coaching, or an easier pathway for them to step into coaching, punditry, broadcast, you know, the jobs are kind of there, ready and waiting for them.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think Mourinho's career is something that I can definitely relate to, um, having been a very average runner and seeking you know a career in broadcast and coaching, two careers that are very difficult to sort of really step into and excel and reach the highest level.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Probably if you haven't been there and done it as a professional, because I think it's tough to buy respect, you really have to go out and earn it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's something you know, the likes of Mourinho was able to do, and hopefully, give me another 30 years, maybe maybe I can go and do that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mate, I don't I don't doubt it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't doubt it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's tough.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you've got armchair experts everywhere now, and everyone can give their two cents on on social media without without having gone through at least a bit of doing the sport yourself.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um when you're interviewing, you've interviewed so many world-class, especially like middle distance, long distance runners and athletes.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: What have you found as you've gone through that you know maybe has surprised you or something that you didn't learn, you know, haven't learned as a as a runner yourself?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's an interesting one, you know, from from athletes, from coaches, and I guess I don't know if it sort of surprised me, but it just hits home, is this utter belief in what they're doing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: And what I've learned about people who excel at something is once they find a formula, you know, they they they spend a period of time in their career finding a formula.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, of course, you know, going through going through the age groups, developing into a good senior.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Once they find a formula, they are okay at sticking to it and not drifting too far away from it, and trusting that you know this formula is going to get them in shape every single year.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, maybe they tweak it a little bit, but the chances are it's just rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think the big thing that hits home is like one, they trust in what they're doing, um, two, they're experienced and intelligent enough to figure out that formula in the first place.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: But three, they have the ability to not get bored.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that is something I think a lot of people struggle with.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: How many times have even just an ordinary you know, people in the workplace or or people who have had success doing their first you know, 5k or 10k, you know, how many times have you achieved a goal and then you've gone, okay, how do I get better?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: And immediately your first thought to getting better is what do I change?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I almost feel like the elites have a slightly different mindset, is actually when they've just achieved something incredible, they go, Okay, how much of this do I keep in?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it how much if I just keep everything in, will I continue to get better?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Versus like how much do I need to change?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's definitely something that I'm slowly learning and coming to terms with, is like actually, if you've done something right, chances are just keep doing it and it will pay off.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, it's such a and this is the case with a lot of the like secrets or the common traits between high performers is it always seems it's so simple when you put it like that, but in terms of the psychology and in practice, the urge to tw switch something up or the amount of things that come about that cause maybe doubt on the process, or even just like I think our relationship with um you can't really see the results of something that happens over a long time until you do it over a long time.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think trusting that compounding effect that it is gonna continue to work, and it's all well and good saying if it's not broke, don't fix it.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um but of course, you know, in on the on the other side, there are certain things that people will need to change, or let's say personally from an injury perspective, have been forced to change, and then they've been better off because they've been forced into those those different avenues and having to adapt to it.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's interesting what people always opt to change.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: Often, the one thing in my career working with working with runners, the one thing that they think they need to change is perhaps the hardest thing.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: And what you know, what I mean by that is they'll they'll look at their training and go, okay, well, I probably need to run more, or I probably need to you know do much harder sessions, you know, bump the volume off of my sessions, run harder, run faster, all of this.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: When when actually I think sometimes change can be, it's the probably the easy things that if they're not there that you should be changing, and it's like, you know, can you just get a tiny bit more sleep?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what impact will that have?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: And because it's not flashy, and because you can't really quantify and see the impact that it's having, and like until, like you said, over a long period of time, you know, just each session is a little bit better.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: They almost don't want to buy into it, they want to see that change in front of them straight away, hence why they just go to numbers, you know, they go to the numbers.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Can I bump the volume up?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: Can I see that change?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay, that's that's satisfying because actually I can see that I'm working harder.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas working harder doesn't always have to be just improving some numbers on a on a page.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Does that do you think that applies to two different types of athletes and to different you know people in different levels of the sport?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I guess that idea of less is more or you know, not training, you probably have the athlete, like the elite performers are at risk of training too hard.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Your more recreational runner, someone that's starting out, the advice probably is to do is to do more.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um how do you see when people you know are kind of taking the wrong advice, maybe on a social media space, like what would you want to say to those people that might be getting the wrong end of the step?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's funny, there's just so many fundamentals to the sport that if you're a late starter, if you're you know, I work with a lot of people who might start running a they've just got into it into their late 20s or or mid-30s or even later than that.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: And depending on what they've done, you know, some some people I work with, they may have they may have played rugby when they were younger, and you know, if they if they have, then the chances are they're quite versatile, they're quite agile, you know, they probably have a decent top speed, you know, they have an element of of conditioning, they can probably handle impact a little better uh than others, and so they might not need as much conditioning, but if you're someone who's starting late and you haven't had, you know, like for you, Charlie, if even if you had 10 years out of this sport, you would be very confident in your ability to go and run a 5k just straight off the couch, or even a 10k, or even a half marathon, just because you've been there, you've done it, muscle memory, it will come back to you, um, and your body, you've conditioned it over the first 15-20 years of your life, you know, it will handle it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think those who are starting out under underappreciate actually how much you do just need that level of conditioning, and it you know, I'm not talking about just having to go into the gym and you know do gym sessions every single day of the week, but it is a case of chances are a lot of people their calves have next to no capacity.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, when was the last time people did a calf race?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: So the minute they run for more than about 10-20 minutes, they're probably gonna incur problems, and until they improve the endurance in their calves and their hamstrings and their glutes, and whether it's hill running, um, you know, whether it's you know repeated lightweights in the gym, that sort of thing, or just long, slow hikes, you know, which is gonna improve their leg conditioning, um, then they're not gonna be ready to attack training in the same way.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: But the mistake people make is they think they won't get the same return off of conditioning their body as they will if they run 20, 30, 40 miles a week, when they will, you know, just because they're starting out.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's looking the biggest thing for me is with with most runners and and and the elites is, and again, you take that to a higher level, is you've got to look at the background you've had.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, people, Almgrin's in the press at the moment because of what he achieved this summer, and I'm sure he'll do amazing things at the world half championships this weekend, and everyone will then just obsess over Algrin's training and what he's done, but you know, he rightly identifies at 16 years of age he was running 48 seconds for a 400.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, how many world-class 10K half marathon runners have been able to do that?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Very, very few.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: So the way that he is going to design his training can afford to be very different to someone who might get the same outcome, and I think so.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's acknowledging people don't realise actually how those early years, you know, from the age of even younger than 10, you know, to your 20s, how that impacts what sort of training you should do and what you're going to be able to handle.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's it's so it's such an interesting point.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I always think I guess for me, for me, selfishly, it's coming back from from injury and trusting that you can get back to the level with you know, I don't need to have years of build-up like I did before.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can pick up where you take off, but not exactly like you've got to be doing stuff in the in between.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you know, you do absolutely nothing and then you come back and it's it's clicked.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I mean it's the same way, especially with people that I'm coaching down at the gym, is they might be worried about oh what happens if I, you know, I I'm going on holiday for two weeks, will I lose all of my gains?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it is almost that the the nervous system just needs to adapt and recognize it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've built the foundation before, it's a lot easier to get back to the level rather than to push to a to a new one.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that that's the trust, that's more of the conversation that I have, but it's the same, yeah, on that on that elite side is you know, why would you it's like looking at any sort of health check, it's you don't look at the last you know, six weeks or six hours or even six months, have a look at the last six years and see what people are going through on a mental and a like a physical side.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: W 100%.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think you summarise that really well.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, those depending on what that last six to ten years looks like is is gonna be uh is is gonna shape your your future and what the the capacity and the level you're gonna be able to train at and and operate at.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: What do um what are the concepts about running that that that beginners kind of struggle to to grasp?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've mentioned the the importance of just having a base level of of fitness.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen in the because the recreational space is becoming very very popular, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'd love to get on to you know your your views about how we can maybe transfer that onto the professional viewing as well, maybe the the dream as well.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um where do you think people go on go wrong when they're starting out running?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly, I think it's a little bit what we're just starting to talk about now, is they they're not very good at recognising their strengths um and their weaknesses.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think a lot of the information out there is very generalized, uh, you know, and this is where like runner and stuff are amazing, and they they they have uh a very comprehensive half-marathon plan or a 5k plan or a 10k plan, but it's it's very, very generalized.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's not able to assess the athlete and what the athlete's working with.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the power of the coach, and it's like it's exactly the same when you're working with people in the gym, you're able to assess that actually this person does have a background in the gym, you know, and they can squat with good form and all that thing, so we can push them a bit further and we your shape training accordingly.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: And in running, people struggle to identify what their strength and what their weaknesses is because they obsess over the time.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, like my my girlfriend is uh if she's really fit and she's done a good bit of running, maybe she's running 25 minutes for 5k.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: She'll probably hate the fact that you said that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but um she's a very uh you know, she she came from a very sporty background, you know, she was one of these girls in school, she would be playing netboard, doing all these uh you know, all these sports or running, whatever.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: And and so she's really powerful and and quite explosive.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: And for example, she gets way more of it, you know, when she does, you know, try to get fit.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: If she was there was a period where and it was quite a fun experiment actually because she wanted to like actually run more, she wanted to test herself how much volume could she do in a week, and she ended up running more and you know, just long, slow, easy miles, and she got absolutely nowhere because her body just didn't respond to that, it didn't adapt to it.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and Bois Batal, you know, she did a few hill sprints, a hard two-mile effort once a week, um, and a little fart leg, and she got way fitter because she was anaerobically inclined and she needed her strength, it was going to be her speed endurance, it was always gonna be her speed endurance, um, and she started to really enjoy it, and again, it was what what she enjoyed doing and what her body adapted to very quickly.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, you know, if she came to me and she said she wants to run 16 minutes for 5k, then obviously there would be an element of okay, we really do have to build up your endurance um and conditioning and and all of that side of things, but actually, just to feel good and feel fit, first play to your strengths and then worry about your weaknesses after.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of people starting out in the sport or in the gym need to just acknowledge okay, what's gonna make me enjoy this?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Do that, and once you've then hit your next flat line, you know, once you've then stagnated for a period, then it's time to okay, how can I then stress my body in a new way to adapt if we need to hopefully then push on again?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I think people are just trying to, you know, just fall into the trap of just going down, you know, volume route or just going down very generic training route.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, it works, but why don't you just do what you enjoy until you hit a bit of a until you stagnate and then look to take that next step?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's because if you're not enjoying it, it's gonna be very, very tough to stay consistent.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and even more so if you despise running but feel like it's noble to drag yourself out and run for the sake of it, because if someone said it's good for you, then you probably probably won't get too far.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I think there's also that uh the the emphasis on building up enough experience um to then earn the right to know what your strengths are.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not really gonna know what your strengths are, but even if especially if you're someone in their um in their 30s, 40s that maybe played a bit of sport as a kid but hadn't done anything really post-school and post-uni, let's say.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's probably one thing that is that is tricky with these 16 or 20 week plans online is people then think, well, I only need 16 to 20 weeks to complete the race.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, to sign up for a marathon.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, right, give yourself six months.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, it's all been blown a little bit out of proportion and um you know, hopping into it is really not as easy as it as people, you know, or you might see or you might think it is.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I mean it's the same thing in this in this space with this podcast is I the aim at the start of the year was to just do as many podcast episodes as possible for the first year, and as I go through, maybe see what stuff I liked, maybe not, but at least by the end of it I might have 75 to 100 episodes that I can draw upon, you know, some like the these more these newer um fresher episodes with guests like yourself and and then at the end I can we can look at it with the gym, we can chat about with with some of the members and say what did you really enjoy?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then go from there.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: But that I wouldn't have been able to do that in January at all.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Even if even if I could buy a for the 99 quid, even I could buy a a podcasting masterclass, you know, it's it's not something that you get with it.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you've done so much volume of uh interviews, but what has what has been the thing that you've learned from just doing something so much?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's it's interesting because I think when you when you like you said, that's a really good approach to to the podcasting world, but then also just to the training world.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the biggest thing that for me that's starting to hit home is I'm actually in control now.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, that at the start you're like, you're you're doing it and you're like, oh, maybe people are gonna enjoy this, and then there's definitely a period where all you care about is people's enjoyment, you know, you're you're hyper-fixated on numbers and how many listens are we getting.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we definitely went through that phase, and and now we're actually stepping into a phase of it's like, well, we're giving up a lot of time to do this, um, you know, we're working way at it, and actually, I we've started to perhaps be a little bit selfish with you know, guests we're getting on or topics we're talking about because we're doing stuff that we enjoy, you know, and and and it's like, well, why not?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's the same in training that once you've once you've sort of tried a few different ways to train, the chances are the one that is is going to keep you consistent is perhaps the stuff that you enjoy the most as well.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and if you enjoy it, the chances are you're probably pretty good at it too.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so why not get quite good at something?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think I hate the the way the sport is at the moment, especially at a recreational level where everybody feels like more is better and you have to do a half marathon or you have to have a do a 10k or or even a full marathon, you know, you look at the numbers doing that, and I've got so many mates who are in their early 30s, and I've said to them so many times, you know, they've signed up for half marathons and they've stomped rounds and they've hated every bit of it and said running's not for me.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, I saw you all through school, you were one of the most explosive athletes I've ever seen.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you were played centre forward for the school football team, you know, and I was like, I bet you would get much more enjoyment just going down the track, go down your local track, just do 6200s and tell me that wasn't fun.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: And they absolutely loved it.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: And and I said to them, just because you know, running is not just doing a half marathon, you know, actually you can do stuff that you enjoy in this sport, and it will be just as good for you.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, they they can still run a great 5k off of just doing uh you know, they they enjoy doing 6200s every week, and and they're fit and they're healthy, and you know, and because if I looked at them as a coach, I would be like, you are probably gonna be an 800-meter runner or a miner, and that's you know, they're in their early 30s, they're in good shape, they go to the gym, they're powerful.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's what their physique allows, and probably by the time they're 40-50, they're gonna start to enjoy going a bit longer.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: But I think for me, you know, going through all those volume of podcasts is actually if you do something you enjoy, chances are you'll put more time into it, you'll work harder at it, and you'll probably be better at you know, the podcast works, better at presenting it, better at sort of conversing with guests, and you'll be able to get more out of them as well.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: So, whereas if you're forcing yourself to do something, if I was forcing myself to sit with guests that I'm not that interested in their career or what they've done or who they are, it would I probably wouldn't come across as well on a podcast, and it will probably wouldn't make for a very good podcast.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: How do you I think I I completely agree?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I completely agree.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's yeah, for unfortunately, um the stuff that you know I personally enjoy is also kind of good for me.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um despite not being able to run for ages and it's you know, it's it's okay.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: But like it's it's naturally it's like a decent way of life, I would say.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then there is the side the and I mean there's lots of things that kind of pop into my head that would relate to it, that you know, how do you uh get yourself to enjoy things when um either you might have those dips where you don't want to do it or let's say um that you are thinking of getting a guest on because they know you know that they'd be really good for the podcast or they've got a bit a lot of following or they've done something amazing but they're not necessarily the athlete that you'd love to interview where do you see the trade-off there and how do you get yourself to interview them and have a good quality conversation in that instance definitely a part you've got to you've got to do things that you don't enjoy sometimes right and it's that it's so cliche but yeah I'll read a or at one point I was reading a lot of books in my early 20s on sort of career and how to be a good leader and all this sort of stuff and yeah you know all the all the cliche books and it's kind of it is that 8020 rule they say the same about diet as well right you know you 80% of the time you eat well 20% of the time it doesn't matter and and the same with I I try to take the same approach with work.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's like 80% of my work I really love I'm very invested in and I appreciate 20% yeah you probably 20% sometimes you've got to pay the bills you've definitely got to do something that you don't really want to do but also it's taking the that there's always there's always got to be something like so if you're looking at something you're like okay I don't enjoy it but what is the return and you even said it yourself like let's say you get a a make by the way I I love all the guests I get on my podcast um yeah no but I don't want to manage it yeah but like let's say there was a scenario where we were like right we we yeah we're gonna get a guest on that we that we're not that interested in but we know that they they bring high value then the return is obvious they bring high value it's gonna be it's gonna be a success and it's the same with training there's things that you won't enjoy but the chances are they will still bring high value now if they don't if you don't enjoy it and it doesn't bring high you know high reward good return then you know when you draw that um table you know with those four you know two lines across and you have those four squares and if it's in the bottom right you don't enjoy it and there's no return then the chances are you can probably drop it out your life and yeah so whenever I do something like that where I'm like this is going to be tough or I'm gonna be putting myself in a very uncomfortable place challenging myself might not be as comfortable as usually am then there's there's always got to be a return and and you sort of if you show that to yourself present that to yourself chances are you you you crack through it and you then you do a good job at least you hope anyway yeah or you delegate it to someone else and you know if you get the benefit from it.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's pivot on to another another thing that you've been you know that you that you do with your life and something that I saw in on Friday night which is the commentary side of things.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: How important is commentary in athletics and in sport in terms of the kind of viewers experience well we've yeah both of us have grown up watching athletics probably since the age of I mean I remember watching it on TV literally five six years old um and and actually being engrossed and gripped and even now when I go back and I watch those those races that just stick so vividly in my memory you know bikili I remember we were on holiday and I really wasn't following the sport at this time it was like 2000 and it was either two yeah 2003 or 2000 2004 Olympics so it might have been yeah 2004 Olympics um in in Athens and you know we were on holiday at the time I remember just watching Bikili just lap the track and just absolutely beast the 10k and then I remember watching that 5k matchup with Elgarouge and me and my brother were it bunk beds in you know um squished into some little bedroom and we we we were just engrossed and I remember my dad and uh sister and mum and younger brother they were going out for a hike and me and my older brother were like no we're gonna stay in and watch this 10k and we absolutely loved it and one of the reasons we loved it was because the commentary just absolutely gripped us you know and and I think ever you know when I've always been growing up I'm like the commentary makes a race you know if if you're watching something and the commentary's not there and it's the same in football you know you can tell straight away like I love West Ham but watching West Ham play in the EFL with second rate commentators is not as fun as watching West Ham play Arsenal with Gary Neville and Peter Jury on comps.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's just not the game doesn't pop as much and maybe there's more at stake but and so it for the viewer it's everything and I wish that it was I mean it is definitely taken the broadcast is taken very very seriously in a in a lot of sports and I feel like athletics lets itself down a little bit I'm not I'm not saying I'm I'm an expert by any means but I hope that events I commentate on become a little more a little bit more interesting at least or at least I hold the viewer for for a little bit longer.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: Perhaps I don't but I think that's why I am passionate about commentary because I know from my own experiences the effect it can have on the viewer.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: And in a sport where we do struggle for eyeballs we do struggle to convert people who are who participate into fans who actually follow the sport I think the presentation in the media needs to be really really good.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because look at what we're up against we're up against we're up against we're up against sports that are incredibly polished right now.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know when you turn on the Premier League on Sky it is incredibly polished US Open cycling on TNT F1 on Sky you know these sports that we are hoping to challenge the way they present themselves on TV is unbelievable and that's you know the world ultimates on the weekend while athletics are making a big push to try and improve the TV experience and it's still when you watch it it's still miles off of the presentation of any any of those other sports I've just mentioned and I guess that that starts with the production but I think also just as importantly commentary is is a massive part of it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah I agree I think what makes what makes a great commentator what separates the the great from the good is it is it the voice is it the enthusiasm is it the knowledge you know you must you must have commentators that you look up to and you take bits from them what what is it that makes a commentator so good well I'd have to be great to answer that one mate I don't think I'm there yet so I'm sure there's a book on it we can read um yeah I mean definit definitely something that I I think it's the ability to actually commentate you know someone once said to me commentate what's in front of you I think there's that you can definitely go into races and I've done it myself you've gone into races and you've got almost like pre-rehearsed maybe lines or stats and stuff that you're gonna say you might have all the stats in your world up in your head but then what happens if you're commentating on a race and that person you were just going to wax lyrical about they don't even feature you know they're out the back door they're having a bad day then there's no point telling the viewers oh by the way you know they're they're PBs XYZ they're not even in picture you know focus on those people who are at the fore of that race um and so I think good commentators are really really you know one you need the the background knowledge on everyone in the field but the best commentators really focus on what is happening um directly in front of them and they elaborate you know they they they go into detail on that um and I think that's I see it a lot in our sport and I think it's very easy to just fixate on the overall field and less so about like the you know the the the the pinnacle um and how that race is playing out at the front end.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that and I guess that is why it becomes so difficult when you're trying to go from someone that is just gaining knowledge and being like okay you know the test is if someone would ask me a question about another race that someone in the field has done this season can I give them a stat?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Or can I identify without you know sifting through my notes from their race number who that athlete is or their vest like you know the so that's like that's the knowledge first of all that would the strike you know would would stand out to especially that um comment section on YouTube from the Friday night under the lights of your commentary on Friday is apart from the uh the fact that you're on we need to go into it as well but the fact that you're on you're on a bike and you're cycling alongside them you know they were applauding your aerobic capacity of the commentator.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know you're cycling alongside a a group of lads running well I w I won't say how many kilometres an hour because I know you don't like that.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But 1350 for you know for for 5k.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you can and you you fill it if you need to throughout the whole 13 minutes who these athletes are uh what they've been doing in the season you know even in the last couple of years um so much so that they can they can hear you alongside them kind of talking about what they've what they've been doing.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: But then you get to that final bit where the race starts to hot up and I guess you know in the moment it's almost like you you want to forget about who is racing and you just want to be in the moment and talk about you're just there and you're just enthusiastically just describing what you're what you're seeing.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: Is that kind of how it is that how it goes yeah and I guess when you ask me what makes a good commentator versus a great commentator it is that ability to call arguably the most important part of the race which is the last hundred the last 400 of any race you know it's coming to its climax it's the same in football how Peter Dury reacts to a goal going in and the way that that that it just rolls off the tongue for him you know there's nothing pre-rehearsed about it and he can he can just produce lines on exactly what's happened and he could do a hundred different scenarios and come out with you know with different lines different levels of excitement depending on you know what the what the goal means at the time and I think that's what the best commentators do in in track and field distance running as well and it's definitely something that I always reflect you know I won't watch a whole race back but I'll just pick I'll just watch my it's tough to watch yourself and listen to yourself but if I do want to be critical and and try and move on in this world I have to and I'll watch back the last 200 or the last 400 of a race and I'll just be like oh man I you know I made a hash of that and again at front on the lights on the bike I I tend to peel off early on the home streak because I can't go through the finish line and then I'm sort of avoiding people it's dark and then I'm rattling away on a mountain bike over some bumpy grass and I'm trying to call the last hundred and and look over at the same time to see if James West or Kavanaugh got it on the line and yeah I always I'm always like oh that just wasn't as as smooth as I wanted to do it to be but you know I look at those races and it's a great opportunity for me to learn you know in I'm under pressure in a different way like I'm not under pressure because 20 million people are tuning in I'm under pressure because I'm on a bike and I'm trying to avoid people as I peel off and try and think and yeah and try and think about what I'm gonna say and how I'm gonna call the last 50 hundred meters of this race and yeah that's something which the best the best commentators in the world can do and I think they're actually few and far between um and you look in this day and age where things get clipped up it's becoming a super important skill if you're gonna capture that audience and it's definitely something that I I need to work on but um we'll we'll get there we hope.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Hey honestly well I I know I know you're your biggest critic but I it's something that I've showed my friends and people that I work with down at the gym is people say oh what did you do with your Friday night and I will say look at the quality of this and I'm not even like you know you you know if you don't want to be flattered you don't yeah you don't have to be but I'll say like in in with athletics especially people that you know it's so popular now recreationally it's not as popular you know by comparison into the professional level and they say you know what what is the reason for it and I do think that the commentary is a massive is a massive part of it and innovative things like you know having having a bloke on it even if it's just funny and novel is just having a top one on the on the bike next to them.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess it's tough because commentary it might it might be a thought that kind of comes to me is that it might be a similar thing than a similar thing to being a referee where you're only really noticed if you're if you make mistakes maybe you know if you're not up to it or you're a bit flat like you know the um or people start notice that you're a bit flat like the N N CAA commentators there's just no you know you really notice when it's off.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily because in that final hundred metres like as a spectator as long as the energy's there and you know you're they're getting amped up for the race as well and as long as you can provide the energy that matches it from a b from a spectator's point of view then that is that that is good enough.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: But if the energy is off in those final stages not necessarily the the knowledge but if the energy's off then you can you can tell yeah I agree with that you're probably it's probably a fair comment to say that you know commentators are only picked up when when they make an error, make a mistake bit flat definitely um it's funny I I think our sport needs to get a little bit more creative.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: To be a good commentator I do truly believe that you need to be a part of the action and it's one thing sometimes I look back and I'm like actually finding it under lights although I'm on a bike and I'm puffing I've probably produced some of my best commentary because I'm right there with them and I look at major city marathons right and you've got major city marathons and even if you watch the Great North run on the weekend Steve Crown Paula Ratcliffe are amazing commentators but they are in a studio somewhere and if they are they are in a box somewhere they are not picking up on you know they they're they're looking at the same screen we're all looking at on the sofa perhaps they can't see body language as much perhaps they can't hear athletes breathing perhaps they're not picking up on small surges with in the in in the race and I think in a sport like distance running where actually the details are quite hard to spot.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's a bit like cycling I'm a novice I've started watching cycling over the last few years after you know Unchained classic but I'm a I'm a novice and I can't pick up yeah really good and I can't pick up and tell when someone's about to make a move or you know how how many watts they're pushing out.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: But the the commentators can and they've got amazing knowledge and of course they're not quite alongside the cyclist but um but I feel like marathon running it would be very easy to do.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know often in the American marathons they'll throw down to an expert they've done Gail Rupp sometimes has been in the lead car or even Clayton Young I think was in the lead car for Conormancer's American record last year but why not put both commentators in the lead car and so they are picking up on everything and that would come across to the audience and in in in football if you took Peter Drew and Gary Neville out of a stadium where fans are getting on players backs you know they can feel the tension the commentary would be nowhere near as energetic it wouldn't match the play anywhere near as much and I do think they need to think about ways to to put commentators in the heart of the action as much as possible and definitely on road running I think that's could be a key area and it's pretty simple to do.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah is this the uh the rise of drones and virtual reality headsets for commentators you know you see a commentator in a studio just wearing a VR headset and they're right there by the athletes if they're on the track.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think it's because athlete you know what what you really want is you want to feel like I say you want to feel a part of it and the best way to to communicate that you're a part of it is if you are yourself.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you're saying and part of the commentary is saying wow these guys are moving fast.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: These girls are moving fast like you can you can you don't even need to try and find words to describe how fast it is it's just communicating you go oh and they've taken off and oh and you know the rest is the rest is we don't with uh going along with whatever the action is I'm trying to imagine something in my head but you know it's uh do my do my best it do my best at it um but it really is yeah I think it's a massive it's a massive part of the of the sport um what sort of preparation do you do going into uh races like that?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say you know uh Bath um 5k Friday night under the lights last last race of the season kind of going into um you know there's another another race in in November right um what's your preparation look like going into that as a from commentator's perspective well I guess I'm fortunate enough to have done quite a few of them but in that sort of scenario I know I'm not gonna have access to I mean I do print off a start list just in case there's a name that I haven't you know someone turns up that I don't recognise or they're an international and I need to just identify you know what number they're wearing but again it's difficult because you're riding a bike and I acknowledge that it's near impossible to check notes and especially because it's dark for one as well so um but you you you tend you tend to look at the field and you go okay well this is I guess you need a bit of background knowledge but you know who the top five or the top six to you know a bit further back maybe ten sometimes it's been a pack of ten if there's a really deep field and you kind of acknowledge okay these guys or these girls are going to be the ones who are going to be in contention up at the front I just need to make sure I know enough about them and in a battery it's just kind of like I want immediate recent results I want to know what form they've been in in the last couple months and then I also want to know where perhaps they've been at their very very best and if you've got those you know those for most people if you've got those two checkpoints those markers you're in a good place and then if you have any extra layers to it who their coaches who they train with potentially what aspirations they've got this season any you know might be coming back from injury just any extra layers of information always do just really really well when you think a 5k is 13 to 15 16 minutes long there are going to be points where people want more information on that athlete and so the the prep is just kind of they're the two main checkpoints and then thankfully if you're involved in the sport and you you talk to people as much as I do you do understand and you know a lot about what's going on with about a lot of people but otherwise social media especially these days is a great tool you can kind of tell how people's journey over the last six months have been if you if you go on their social media if they're awfully quiet maybe they just don't post that often but the chances are they probably haven't raced much chances are they're not training that well when people are going well they want to tell the world and when they're not going well they tend to stay quiet.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it often gives you gives you a good indication of of of how people are doing in life and um in sport yeah and I guess even commenting on someone not not posting their stuff you know and being was it like Paddy Dever you mentioned in the in the pod that you know I say I listened to today about the um about the race at the weekend he you know he doesn't doesn't post anything um and so you don't really know and that and that's part of it you know sometimes you sometimes you do know you can say exactly what it is other it's the omission of what's what's the unknown like this person's an unknown quantity um what's what's next for you in the on the commentary side of things how do you feel you know but you kind of mentioned that um you've got that critical kind of uh part of your brain um what do you feel like you can develop on them how how are you gonna do that in the next few months yeah it's a tough I I guess I'm in a stage in in my career at the moment where I've got two professions running alongside each other and almost competing for each other in terms of the commentary and and the coaching and I guess you know I need I need one to prop up the other and vice versa.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm at that stage in the commentary and it's just it's kind of the same stage I'm at in coaching where I'm just like I want to gain as much experience as possible.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: I want to put myself in as many new scenarios as possible I'm only 30 years of age and you know can I can I learn to commentate on shot put a lot better can I learn to commentate on a marathon a lot better as well so how many how many times can I practice that through the year and there's you know there's nothing you've really got to do it live you've you've really got to do a proper event to practice it um you know you can't rehearse you can't predict the action and it's that ability to to think fast and and act fast which I think makes a good commentator.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_03: So kind of with both I'm just I feel like I'm at a bit of a grind stage in my life where I'm just like okay I've kind of had I've had the initial few years of of sort of just understanding and and learning what works and and maybe just creating a bit of an identity for myself and now I'm like okay now I need to just put myself in as many new experiences as possible really just grind through the next couple years until like you said it's that volume right you then you then do your hundred podcasts and you're like okay this is what I'm really good at this is what I enjoy um and this is the gap in the market and I think that's kind of hopefully that that that will be the the next step for me and and who knows when that will be.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, is it I I guess it's the same with it's the same with most things really is that you I guess it's like breakout breakthrough season.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is it similar in in the world of in the world of broadcasting?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great analogy.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's you know it's a great analogy you you have you have someone like Other Ludwig for example or the Higgins boys the Higgins boys you know great breakout season yeah announce themselves to the world great podcast by the way with them announce themselves to the world and then it's and then it's a case of backing up and actually sometimes consolidating what you've just done is the biggest success you could ask for.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: Back it up keep your name relevant you know keep putting yourself in front of people and then you know potentially that next break comes and so yeah that probably is a good good analogy and a good assessment of of where I am at both in coaching and uh and broadcasting.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I think it's an exciting it's an exciting place to be because you you know I assume you got incredible confidence.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean do you take when you have these conversations with all these athletes and you talk about that unwavering belief and confidence does that do you absorb that or do you do you have that with with the stuff that you're doing with coaching with commentary with broadcasting?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely definitely try to and I think I've I've been fortunate enough in my life to grow up around or I I've never had I've always had successful people quite close to me and so I've been able to sort of see how they operate or at least have conversations with them whether it be people in business or people in sport and and so I have sort of seen that trait first hand and you do have to remind yourself and and yeah I you know I'd be lying if I don't sit here and and really believe okay yeah but at some point you know the life ambition is you know maybe I'll sound stupid but the life ambition would to do the biggest gigs in the world right it'd be it'd be to be cool in the Olympic Games one day or to be you know definitely from a coaching perspective is like can I take someone to Olympic Games?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's almost the ultimate achievement and beyond that is Olympic medal which is few and far between but um and yeah do I you know I sort of look at my career and I go I'm 30 years of age I keep grinding maybe by the time I'm old and grey I might have had one success but might not have done and I think that's why it's important to really you know I at the moment I'm like this is this is everything you know me in my early 20s this is probably everything I could have asked for so just keep enjoying it and my life might take a different turn and if it does I'll I'll be okay with that.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah I think in such a you know such a fast moving sport so many variables the introduction last few years of like virality things just going going to the moon going nuclear for you know overnight you never really know what's gonna what's gonna happen yeah um how do you keep up with with the acceleration of well the I guess the the the the dispersion of media outlets I guess the yeah the volume of media outlets the just ever changing kind of sport people trying new stuff how do you keep up with everything because I I find it difficult it's getting harder and harder and I think everyone's looking to create something new and exciting as well and so yeah like you look at running now and it's not it's not running anymore it's you you know you've got one spectrum to another you've got like hardcore track and field sprint throws mid distance and then you go all the way through you know up up the distances all the way through to ultra trail running and then you go you know the next extreme for that is crazy challenges people do where they run across the Sahara Desert a million times and and stuff like that and and it seems like it's all just it's all out there and it's very difficult and I think what's what the challenge is at the moment is on social media the way that algorithms can be impacted and influenced is actually you know it used to be that oh how have you missed this like what do you do live under a rock but then it's like actually now your algorithms are becoming so tailored to literally what you viewed yesterday and you might have you might have sort of gone down a little bit of a rabbit hole and then you know it could change the next day so it's actually become quite easy to to miss things because you just there's so much out there now and so yeah when you ask how do I keep up I mean I try and just rely on actually stuff that one I'm interested in and two that is credible and you know I've I've started to make much more of an effort to go to the source.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know you know in the running world I'll yeah I I will go to the let's run website just that they are journalists that I think are are very credible and you know they report fairly and and Sidious Mag or Athletics Weekly or you know or even just straight straight to the athletes you know direct themselves on on their accounts you know that that sort of thing to see what what they've been up to or you know whether it's results you know go to the source look at the splits let that tell the story of the race rather than just seeing a flashy you know someone around the last 200 in 25 seconds okay how's the rest of the race run?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: Is it as good as people are making out but it's I do worry for anyone who follows this sport because it's becoming harder and harder.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's I think it's with any information really online um I had a really fascinating uh part of the conversation with one of my clients Sarah who we had on had on the podcast and talking to her you know she's in her 60s she's just started strength training she's had a fantastic first year and and she loves podcasts she's probably listening to to this one um hopefully um and and you know she'll she'll be so on it with probably listen to podcasts most most hours of the day and most of her free time and but as someone that you know for you it it's it's difficult even when you know something about the sport you know where to look and you've got that um that almost the the radar of is this misinformation has this been blown out of proportion is this something to s to stay or is it just a trend?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um have you got I guess you know it might be just an impossible question to answer but have you got any advice to someone who doesn't hasn't built in the the reps to then be able to sift through the information where are the where should they be if they wanted to let's maybe switch it slightly because there's probably that's it's tough.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's if they were going to get into track and field and they just wanted to consume maybe content for 30 minutes, 45 minutes a week apart from going to Sunday podcast.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know do you think that's you know where where where should where should they go?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: Where should they go?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well that that is what's very that is what's very difficult.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_03: I I think you've you've got to when you're looking at where to consume your content you've just got to question the motive of the account that you are maybe the account you're engaging with that you're following or the website that you're on or whatever and I think in this day and age where you can get rich quick by getting getting views getting hits and and so there's a lot of sources out there where it's like okay what's their motive and a nine times out of ten the motive is just they just want this this clip or this image they just want this image to be seen and engaged with and so just where wherever you are looking is just make sure that you understand that okay yeah this motive is doing it for the right reasons.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know this this source is putting this information out for for the right reasons it's not just there to antagonize or as much as that's good again quite funny content to consume I think and it's a it's the same in the news world isn't it you know it's the same in the news world you try to go to a news outlet that you believe is credible and fair and unbiased.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: Try your best but I mean to actually you know I don't think I've answered the question but to answer your question I'm not sure anything exists like that and and that's that's the problem that where can you get like a quick 30 minute summary of of of what's going on on this sport and maybe we've just identified a gap in the market but the sport is too it's too broad the chances are if you're interested in running you might be only interested in the 5k storyline of Jakob Ingebridge and Karl Hokker Josh Kurt those guys it's then quite difficult to step into the half marathon storyline where people only run twice a year there's a lot more sort of East Africans involved in it okay what's going on in the half marathon world oh Kajopcha just ran 5650 oh that's old news you know he ran that on the same weekend of the Diamond League final unfortunately or the Zurich Diamond League it was you know it just completely glossed over incredible result and I think that's the problem with the you know one of the problems with the sport is there's just it's just too much going on on the same weekends it's I don't I don't know where people would start to be honest.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry yeah I mean and yeah and and I and I get it because I like as I I mentioned to you on on Friday night I can come home on a Thursday or Friday and I might be if you know God forbid I haven't gone into overdrive and kept working and kept you know trying to train and do whatever I can is I'll sit down and I'll think something like what do I do with the next hour of my day what I do before bed and then I realise I look at my phone and then I'll see oh there's a diamond league going on.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's another one and you know and and that's as someone that and and I do say and I said it in message to you before before you came on it is thanks to podcasts like yours that keep athletes like me interested in the sport even when I can't do it.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're when you're injured you either do you know one of two things really is you either stay away from it completely and you go in your own lane or you try and stay connected to it in in some way.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and it is nice to have you know as much as you can but you guys just focus on middle distance running.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm okay with not knowing much about the sprinters and I might be able to see the sprinters if I do watch the actual you know the actual events.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm okay with not knowing that um there's a road running championships and there was the mile in New York at the weekend.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's just that's just kind of like you just got to pick and choose I guess and it was what you alluded to um a few days ago on you know how do you then create your content and can you please everyone there's always going to be something that's left out right and I guess the people that are going to follow are the people that are going to want to follow at at some level what can you do to you know to to attract everyone or to have a whole source.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's just going back to I guess it's going back to mainstream media and being like well that's just that's the solution um which it's probably very abusive.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: It is and you know when you look at the when you look at the media in other sports it's it's almost 247 they're driving a constant narrative and and I I would always do comparisons to football because I think that is it's the biggest sport in the world it's definitely the biggest sport in our country and why wouldn't we want our sport to be on that level like I absolutely would so you know you do have to look at what they're doing and unfortunately in our sport it we it might be a good thing that we've got constant headlights you know we've got constant like we said we have Fifth Avenue clashing with the World Ultimates this weekend we've got the World Roadrunning Champs which is across two days Saturday Sunday really to do those championships justice and to do all these events justice we probably do need some form you know my dream would be to have a radio show which just covers distance running 20 you know not maybe not quite 247 but we are covering distance running comprehensively you know it's not it's not one hour where people are on a you know someone's on a podcast it's not a couple of hours when you watch a diamond league because there's far more to it and there are so many athletes who are competing at incredibly high level and they all deserve uh the sort of the the credit and the exposure to match up with their level and so I I do think we we need to do more but it's again it it is financially and and who would listen but you know if there was if there was a radio show on your way to work which was focused on you know distance running and what was going on and you knew you were going to hear from Kig Julchra at 10 o'clock and then you were going to hear from Gemuriki who just won the Fifth Avenue mile at 1030 for five or ten minutes and then you were going to have a couple pundits discuss you know they were live on the ground at Fifth Ave you would probably really start to engage it.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_03: Then then the next hour you've got um you know a a sports scientist on like it would it it would probably be and there's always a story um but you know at the moment it's tiring because all of these stories are just shared on social media with minimal context um and just you're just bombarding.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and I think you you guys do a a great job like you know you call your um roundups like radio roundup and it does have that feel of like you have the callers coming in I assume that's that's the the angle that you want to go is to try and replicate what you say would be an ideal yes yeah we've we've we we've tried to we haven't we haven't quite excelled at it's it's not it's not polished um I think a lot of people are scared to you know I you could probably go down to a long run on Sunday Charlie and you could be running with 10 guys and they would all have a massive opinion on what's just happened at the world ultimates they'd all be talking about Jacob and Kerr and you know the women's 800 that sort of thing but then you you give those people a platform to talk about it and they go quiet.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the nature of our sport it's the same with athletes and look I mean Jesus Jacob has hardly um you know sort of come out and and been horrendous in the press you know he's he's said a few things you know he's caught you know he he called a few people cowards for not going with the pace I mean woo Jesus you know that's hard to be going to upset anyone is it but look at the look at the backlash that's had you know look at the you know the meeting that's about Goldhawker's being questioned every post race interview going and that's just from a small you know small tongue-in-cheek comment from from Jakob there and so look at the power and I'm not saying people need to talk smack 24-7 but you look at Josh Kerr and you look at Jakob in a rich and you look at the way those two guys have talked about over the last couple of years are they probably the wealthiest two guys in track and field you know in distance running right now probably I don't know their finances maybe that's me being awfully presumptuous um someone will correct us otherwise I think at least Josh Kerr's doing alright with what with what he wears and his fashion and the rest of it exactly yeah exact exactly and so we need a we need a few more people in our sport to be to to be comfortable talking about our sport and I guess that's why I love doing the podcast is because I I do like talking about um our sport and I've got over the fact that people listen and maybe they'll judge me and disagree with things that I say but people need to talk more about our sport and I think people are very very quiet and it's getting better it's getting better.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think the good I think the test of it is a lot of the time you know it's like everyone gets outraged at pretty much everything now like like you mentioned you know uh Cole Hawker has it's now a good time to segue into Sydney Sweeney It's on the tip of my tongue it's on the tip of my tongue best not to best not to absolutely not we'll go go over half an hour about um but it but it is you know there's there are reactions there are reactions super quick like it's so instant that was what came up in my head when you talk about algorithms is that that's you know the Sydney Sweeney stuff has been all over my algorithms you know for the last which feels like week but it's just a day um but then I can also you go into the comment section you get a whole new feel for it you get a different angle you get something and then you get I know Amy Hunt did a I think she was on the BBC she was doing an interview on on mainstream television.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: But again which algorithm are you going to be on and then you're gonna find something that's gonna disagree with it.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you you do need the disagreements and you are going to have those contentious topics that can be seen from some angles some things you may see as more right and than others.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's this is this is the most like impartial without going into anything about it.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's you do want some people talking about it.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah the the rivalries have only really been a thing in athletics over the last couple of years.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: And some some people like it but some people just say you know just let the let the running do the talking but I don't know how do you find the balance between keeping the sport sports pure but then having this magnified more interesting theatrical conversation talking lens or can you have a mix of both?
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: You can definitely have a mix of both and I think it's the role of the mainstream media to spark conversation to you know they did they did a great job.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_03: By the way Flowtrack which we're talking about presentations online probably very few people out there have because we're based in the UK have seen the presentation of the diamond league that Flowtrack offer and it's really good and you know they were the ones who clipped up and got that interview off Jakob instantly they asked the question they had him hot headed live off the track perfect time and it's the role of the mainstream media to to not pick sides to just probe and spark conversation and then I guess you're going to get passion you're going to get people who will who will pick a side further down the sort of following the you know the fan base and the wider audience and and that's what's good for the sport and so and again the I guess Keeley's had a tough year this year from a from a narrative perspective from you know the way she's been scrutinized and her performance have been analysed you've got Werra you've got Femke and that whole storyline I imagine as an athlete in the dead centre of all of that it must be very tough mentally to sieve out that noise and focus on the task at hand which is putting out the best performances on the track but by God is that narrative good for the sport you know there were so many eyeballs on that European championships everyone wanted to know who was going to win and even the rest of the season whenever they tow the line and it's fantastic and sometimes it will be a detriment to a certain athlete caught up in it in that moment and that is a shame yes but there is an element of our sport which is constantly seeking perfection you've got athletes who are constantly seeking perfection hence why they're not competing as frequently as we would like as fans and you've got you know governing bodies and organizations who are constantly sort of seeking perfection they only want to put on sort of the best of the best I think sometimes you have got to you know put these races on bring athletes together when they might not be at their very best um perhaps it's a slightly lower key meet and just celebrate the the performances and just the racing and that's why I still sort of heavily enjoy the the grassroots stuff because you do you do just get yeah Friend's perfect example you just get these great races these great matchups we've just had a little bit of a technical issue but we're we'll get back in and um I think one of the key things Matt is talking about is talking about getting the answers from the athletes and driving a little bit more of an interesting narrative and partly it is that fear from maybe a a media source to ask questions that put athletes in tough like tough uncomfortable um positions.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are the questions that we should be asking athletes then what are the things that people are shying away from yeah that's that's an interesting topic.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I remember I one of my lecturers worked for he did loads of years at the PVC did several Olympic games and um then did basically health channel prime developed that um into what it is today for it.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: And who said would we would we know Joe County I mean yeah Joe County amazing guy and I remember I had a lengthy conversation with him once and and he said you know people don't necessarily like the media but they do nothing without the media and the media need the athletes but at the same time the media also have control because they know that they are they are giving the athletes money.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: They're giving the athletes exposure.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's it's chicken and the egg and they both need each other to succeed and if there is no storylines coming out the media want to say the athletes lose You know, they might be doing amazing performances on the track and it might be comfortable for them.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_03: No one's questioning what they're doing, who they are, where they're going.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and yeah, maybe they're loving that side of it, but actually financially they're turning around and going, Well, I've got nothing.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then you know, the media, the media obviously need need to engage with athletes, they need the performances um and they need the characters, and that sells for the media, so it works, it works both ways in that regard.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the at the the sooner the athletes realise that the better.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think people like Jakob and Kerr, they have realized it very, very quickly.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think when you look I'm I remember do you remember the whole Mo Farah saga?
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_03: Now there was a period you remember Mo Farah was an amazing character, um, an amazing athlete, and then you know the saga with him taking Angelo and injecting stuff into his body and the drugs, and and it was very uncomfortable.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, it felt like the media had a go, they probed, and then it felt like they couldn't it they then didn't go any further and it kind of got forgotten about, and maybe the storyline ended there, but you think if that was any other sport, there would have been far more digging into that set, and of course, you know, that the behind the scenes there must have been because you know, then it later comes out, Salazar's banned.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it didn't be.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's conversations that are happening, right?
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_03: There's it's a couple years later, Salazar's banned, and the media and and what it boiled down to is I think the media just didn't quite care enough to just continue probing, continue digging, maybe the stoiler wasn't there, and and all of this stuff kind of happens behind closed doors, and and yeah, I guess if if the athletes don't want to be analyzed and they don't want to be talked about, then they're simply not going to earn as much.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and when you when you pull it back to you know what questions do you ask athletes, and I think for me it's it's the hard questions, and we're starting to see it more and more.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um definitely, you know, we are starting to ask athletes the hard questions, and some of them aren't enjoying it, but I think that's probably what the sport needs more of.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I also think it's too much to constantly go at the athletes, and in any other sport, athletes are protected a lot more because the media are a lot, they're they're they're vicious, you know, they're out there for blood and they're protected.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so why aren't we why aren't we talking to coaches more?
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, all of these athletes behind them is an amazing, broader team.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Jacob's amazing, but I would love to hear what Elizabeth had to say.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to hear what his and we saw it a little bit at the World Ultimates.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_03: One of my favourite interviews was with Henry Kingbritson.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_03: That was the most insightful interview I took.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't see that.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't see that.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was fantastic.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he was talking about Jacob's Jakob's recovery.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, he the the the sort of clip farmed comment was him saying what's better than going after a uh an ancient world record, going after a new world record, basically he's going after Kellasma world record in the next in the next 12 months.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, and he was able to give a lot more detail and context to how Jacob's been training and the races um that that he was going to do.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that gave another angle, another perspective to our sport.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, it is very difficult.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the athletes can only say so much.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there I've I've hosted a podcast where we've spoken to athletes, you know, hundreds of them now, and it's amazing, but sometimes it's really nice to have a break and hear what a coach has got to say, or hear what a sports scientist has got to say, or a psychologist, or you know, someone like or a CEO or a brand a brand partner or an activator, whatever it may be.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think when you talk about the the questions they ask in mix zones and stuff, I also think they need to have a chance to talk to other people, you know, whether it's talk to Seb Co more, get him in front of a camera more, whether it's talk to coaches more, family, friends.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_03: That would be a lot that would be very interesting.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean it's so normal in all other sports.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: The the athletes, like the sports people, they don't get the the stick.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like in a football match, they're not they're kind they kind of get the stick in a post-match interview, but it's always the manager, it's always the person that manages them.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe it's maybe there's something to be said it's different in a team environment than an individual.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_00: How much is down to um the the blame and the responsibility you put on a team rather than an individual person, but it does shift that criticism, and it does mean that you can ask because you're not peppering it at one person, right?
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't always have to be criticism though, yeah.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_03: You can have an amazing performance, and sometimes I find when an athlete has run an amazing race, you get you get nothing out of them.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what what can they what can an athlete say on an Jesus?
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_03: That all that all worked out perfectly, you know, did did the tactic, I'm in shape.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas if you spoke to their wider team about that amazing performance, then you would probably get a lot more context and understanding of how they were able to achieve it, and that would be really valuable for for fans.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so but yeah, you're you're right, you know, you it's in other sports athletes are protected, and I feel like you know, they're all human beings, coaches are human beings, CEOs are human beings, and so I'm not saying we need to, you know, we need to roll back and go to the early 2000s when media were you know an angry mob outside people's houses, but um I think get a few different opinions on different conversations, I think that's always exciting.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I guess you want to give the athletes the opportunity to speak about something that they maybe haven't been asked about.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think especially you go onto YouTube channels you that are vlog-based, like Amy Hunt's got a I think on her one of her recent vlogs, it's 42 minutes long.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, going through it and 25 minutes in, she's talking about how um talking about the response online and how she can see everything.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can you do what you you want to get to that bit within 15 seconds of an interview.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are the things that you want to ask.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember, you know, when um I mean it's kind of the first first time that we'd met, which was at the Keeley Classic, and we were thinking Sam and I were thinking of questions to ask in the in the mix zone.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, well, why don't we just have a hat of random questions, some surface level, some probably quite deep, and the athlete picks out a question and we just see where the response is.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like we kind of put it to put it to a bit of luck and just see see what happens.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we had Amy as um in we interviewed Amy and I think one of the questions was about what her younger self would think of her and would they be would they be proud?
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the it's almost the the permission that we gave ourselves to ask the difficult questions to get over that maybe awkwardness, or you know, but you're in the heat of the battle like after the race, do these athletes really want to want to get asked those questions?
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they do, but we haven't given ourselves and the media maybe hasn't given themselves the opportunity because they don't they're scared of that potentially.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I be not being being someone that's not in the space.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've got no idea, I'm just a spectator.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the questions, a lot of the times the the responses that are the best ones are the the really tough questions to to ask.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I there's definitely probably an element of what you're alluding to there is those behind the camera also fear upset, our sport is so small.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_03: And if you if you were if you're someone who's in those mixed zones regularly and you happen to potentially up ask a difficult question and maybe that riles the athlete up the wrong way, or maybe it upsets them, you might not have access to that athlete ever again.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas in other sports, the media is uh a duty that athletes need to fill.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I think Fergie, to be fair, did he boycott the BBC did he boycott the BBC or was it Sky for a period in in his career?
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he boycotted talking to the BBC, it was always the assistant manager, wasn't it?
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess there are scenarios where that can happen.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I think there's probably a large element of that, and sometimes, yeah, an athlete no answer is an answer in itself, yeah, as well.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, they they have they they they have the freedom to say I'm not gonna answer that.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a BBC interview um of any of the diamond leagues or anything where the athlete has actually said I'm not gonna answer that.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Which is interesting.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean maybe maybe you need more of that.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I know that you know Jo Josh Kerr asked if it was live, and then I don't know if he gave a different answer afterwards about what he actually thought about the world ultimates.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um but hey, you know, you know.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the athletes are they they haven't quite got the freedom to to form their own opinion yet either.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know why, but I think it's because perhaps they haven't got as much protection.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I definitely feel athletes are on their own in this sport, and you know, dare they say anything, there is scrutiny, and it's they they are just one, you know, they are seen to be fair.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, we know there's a support team behind them, but they are one person, and it's probably very easy to for trolls to sort of attack athletes.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I think athletes are very careful what they say as well, whereas in other sports perhaps they they they they do come out and perhaps they talk a little bit more freely because they they have that protection and the media can only access them at certain times.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think something almost I see it as similar, but maybe completely unrelated, and it goes back to what you know what we're talking about at the start and what you mentioned about having belief in yourself is that there's a certain element that I feel, and maybe it's maybe it's in British culture, maybe it's just my personal experience of how I've gone through things, but there's an element of um having to grant yourself permission to to do something.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, and posting online is a great thing.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're giving yourself the permission to then be scrutinised and and seen by by other people.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's a similar thing that you know, with that belief that we need to first give ourselves permission to fail in that sense and in another sense within the media and coming across as a certain type of type of person.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it might open doors more than more than we think, but yeah, there's obviously a a trade-off uh and you know, there might be uh sponsorships at at stake potentially, or as you say, it's not a it's not the biggest sport in the world, so there's a little bit more riding on the on the individual.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that last sentence, I think that definitely drives home.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there a lot of people, a lot of athletes in our sport, let's be honest, they rely on governing body funding.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_03: So if they were to ever say something, step out of line and that governing body funding could get axed overnight, or they were perceived badly by a sponsor, that's their whole livelihood gone.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, which is maybe it's a risk, yeah.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_03: It it it is a massive risk, and this is what I mean by there's very little protection for them.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, and whereas if you look at football, I mean Jesus, these guys can get caught up in all sorts of scandals.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_03: And ah, well, at the end of the day, the performance on the pitch talks the most, and another club will have them.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then it and then it gets forgotten about, you know, rather quickly.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, yeah, like look at like like you know, Jamie Carragher, like he literally spat in someone's face and like he's all over, he's all over Sky Sports, you know, and they what do they fire him for a period and then it's like actually the guy's go to this job.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: They need him, we need him, get him back, yeah.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And people do forget, and there's a massive recency bias, and I think you know it's the it's the it's the tough thing about about sport, and I mean it's just it's just a life thing, is that you you get sucked in, you zoom in loads, and then zoom back out.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_00: On on that topic of of maybe comparison or being being able to um I remember seeing a video on your Instagram, I scrolled down, and it was about a simple thing like posting on Strava and taking control of your own training with journaling and uh going through this uh experience of mastery being kind of do the best for yourself and then performance, which is comparing yourself to others.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Matt, with the people with your athletes that you coach, what are the conversations and what are the tips that you'd give them to stay in their own lane and stick true to kind of what works for them?
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think we were talking about this really early on in the podcast about figuring out the formula, and if you want to get better at something, you need to identify what's working, how am I adapting as quickly as possible to training, all of those things, and you can only do that from good journaling and reflection?
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's one of my pet peeves, especially in this day and age, is people are quicker to reflect on what others are doing than they are what themselves.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it is if I said if I phrase that the right way, so that they will No, no, yeah, just yeah, could you explain that?
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Explain that a little bit more in depth, how how that happens.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think the whole the you know the whole um USP of Strava is like you've got everyone's session run, whatever activity they've done during the day, right in front of you.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_03: So when you get back from a run, instead of just pausing for 10 minutes and just processing or a session, pausing for 10 minutes session and being like, okay, how did I feel?
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what was what was that run like?
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_03: What am I what am I reflecting on?
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, how could I do that better?
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, what what really worked today?
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever, right?
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Taking that just 10-15 minutes, just pausing and digesting what you've just done, what you've accomplished in that hour of your time.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of that, you get back, your watch is already synced before you've walked even in the door.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you load up Strava, and in fact, it's not your activity that you care about.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_03: You automatically find yourself looking at everyone else's activity.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so, what do you end up doing?
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_03: You end up analysing their bloody activity before your own.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's and it's and it's often the same actually, and you often sometimes find it in a group scenario, and and that's one of the dangers of it's one of the beauties of training in a group is everyone drives each other on, but also training in a group scenario, you also get people who are overanalyzed what others are doing and they're not focused on what they're doing.
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that's what I try to say to my athletes is look, first make sure you prioritize reflecting on what you have just accomplished and what you're doing and where you're heading, and then by all means you can share that reflection to the world if you're comfortable doing that, or you know, keep it, keep it to yourself.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, don't get sidetracked, and I think that's definitely one of the one of the drawbacks to social media, it's one of the drawbacks to Strava, is actually you lose the ability to analyse what you've just done, and instead you start analyzing what everyone else is doing.
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems attractive as well because you feel like you're maybe it's maybe it's not, maybe it's too maybe it's too kind to say you even feel like you're you're learning.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're probably not doing it to learn, it's more of a to see how you see how you're stacking up against them.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it comes, you know, it comes down to measures of success.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And even having a measure of success like a quantifiable one, such as uh, you know, minutes per mile or however fast you're running those K reps um compared to whoever else, is that their measure, even if it is time per rep, is not the same as your measure.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, even if it is the numbers and it's the same numbers game in a race, uh it's not the same measure, even though it's measuring the same thing, because it really is down to how you engage with it.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Without a doubt.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's just you just it's it's context to everything, isn't it?
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you have you you have and again, this is why social media perhaps is a negative, and again, Strava's a negative, because there's no context to what someone's just done on Strava.
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um and the only context you have is what you've just done.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_03: You can put that into context um and you can reflect on that, and and that's important to do so because if you're trying to find that formula with what works, you need to have the ability to track.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where sort of I think the power of pen to paper and journaling comes in.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_03: It is it's so much more freeing to offload your thoughts onto a piece of paper than in a caption.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_03: And even if you know, some people are some people are really honest on Strava and they will sort of offload and you get a lot of insight and a lot of detail, but they know who they're sharing it with, you know, they know the audience, so they're they're going to shape what they're putting out for a bit of extra kudos or to come across in a certain way, for sure.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's human nature to do that.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, yeah, it's it's the it's the positive side that I've seen about um setbacks and injuries in in the sport is it rips it rips you apart from that comparison game.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's the time far removed.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can't well you can't you don't have anything to compare against.
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um you really don't, and and and then it gives you you know that ability to to reflect, to to zoom out and zoom back in.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think anything which and you know I've I bang on about it, probably not people don't listen to it enough on this podcast to be like, oh I bang out, bang on, bang on about this all the time.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_00: But things that I feel like I frequently mention is is the journaling and the reflecting and how it can it's not a it's not a tool to accelerate progress, but it allows you to stay so much more where your feet are with your training and to help that direction and to it is that it's a faster process to to find out what works for you, yeah.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it it it takes you away from from the numbers and gets you connected back to the back to the pursuit because it is simple, like yeah running is pretty pretty simple.
• 1:24:21
  SPEAKER_03: It is you can get caught up in the complex, you can, and you know it's a faster process to figure out what works, but also you can see where you're heading a lot clearer, and and I think on on Strava, unless your graph is going up every week, it's difficult to see oh actually I am making progress, or you know, I'm I'm I'm heading in a certain way because again, you just haven't got that extra layer of context.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you might do one session which is great one day and then the next not so great, and you struggle to put that into context.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas you know, journaling you can really see you know, I often I often I remember my best seasons were when I was when I was doing it, that's why I'm quite passionate about it, and I think the the successful people I've been around are very t on it when it comes to journaling and reflecting um on what they're doing.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_03: And often when you write something down, you're you might just write, had a good day felt amazing.
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_03: But if you write that down, chances are when you're running well, you're feeling good pretty much six days a week.
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_03: You're acknowledging that you're feeling good six days a week, and you're just writing it down, you're just confirming it, confirming it, confirming it.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what that does to your confidence?
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_03: Turns you into a beast, you know, whereas on Strava, you're gonna come across as an arrogant so-and-so if you just put felt a million dollars every you know, who's ever done that on their captioned every single day?
• 1:25:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they don't, but they might have feeling amazing, yeah.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, in fact, I see more negative Stravas than than positive Stravas.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, I've got a lot of you know, I there's a lot of people I coach, and nine times out of ten, their comments will probably be more negative than positive.
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_03: And what is that?
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_00: What does that do to your confidence?
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a good point, you know, and it's like you know, let's say that we do have the permission to be really positive as as Brits, and you know, let's just say that we can do that.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I will probably as as I'm hopefully getting back to running soon, is yeah, every post on my Strava, if you ever see it, has to be positive.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can't have even if it's terrible, you know.
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'll from from my from my one minute walk run to anything else that I'd be able to do.
• 1:26:38
  SPEAKER_03: You sometimes you've got to trick your mind, and I I I love that because I remember I spent uh I was on a training camp with Jack Rowe once, and and we were in Flagstaff, it's going back a few years, and he was running, he'd run 13-20 already the year prior or whatever.
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_03: So he was in good shape, had a good breakthrough, and yeah, he was training very hard.
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_03: And there were times where he'd be, he would have done his morning session, he'd be on the sofa, he'd be absolutely conked out.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I was living with him, so I could see this guy was exhausted.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_03: I could, and there would be easy runs where I'm running alongside him, I'm thinking, You are absolutely knackered, bud.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd be like, How are you feeling?
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_03: He'd be like, Yeah, I feel good, yeah, felt really good.
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, and I and I was you know, and I used to joke with him around the house, dude, you you look exhausted, you're tired, you know.
• 1:27:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd be trying to convince him he was tired, and he he would never let that thought creep in.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought it was interesting, and sometimes maybe there's an element of you know, you need to be honest with yourself, how you're feeling, but you know, I think he he was wired to not even let the thought creep in that he was tired, that he wasn't feel you know, that he wasn't feeling great, and you know, he would come out the other side of that fatigue.
• 1:27:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think sometimes how you speak to yourself is very, very important, and we are quick to humble ourselves.
• 1:27:52
  SPEAKER_03: And because our sport is so our sport is so objective, though, it is black and white, you've either run X time or you've finished X play X place, and unless
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_00: you run a PB and win there's work to do right and so it the sport kind of lends itself to staying humble yeah yeah and and it's also like what got you to what got you to a certain level of success is probably by being more critical than being praiseworthy of yourself um but I d I complete I completely agree that it is tricking it is tricking your mind it is I see it sometimes as calling calling bullshit out on your thoughts in in sessions when it's super hard and and and that journaling practice is the the practice of detaching yourself from your thoughts and saying well whatever the thought that comes in you're it's that kind of Buddhist and stoic idea of like you are not your thoughts and you can you can have that mindfulness gap in between in between the two and then you know and then you can say to yourself like yeah there's a difference probably from being really tired and then being burnt out but for the most part you could probably err on the side of you've got a bit more to give and you are probably doing a little bit better than how you think think you are yeah because a lot of how we feel is to do with expectation if we feel if if if we step into a session or a workout or a race and we think I should I should feel good today.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_03: This should be quite comfortable I should win or I should run I'm expected to run X time and then we get a quarter of the way through or halfway through and we're like this is hurting more than I expect it to hurt then the negative thoughts come hard.
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know they come hammering at you.
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_03: But if you go into something and and you're like this is going to be really hard um you know this is going to test me today and you're feeling good in the first half then Jesus you know you're being flooded with positive thoughts and it's that you know it's it's I guess performers those who realize that like you said the the thoughts don't necessarily match up to to what your body can do then you can unlock another gear.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I think I think the 800 meters as a race is a perfect example of having a measure telling determining whether you're being reactive being told how you're supposed to feel or you're in control of how you're feeling because you get on most tracks you get one look at that clock which is at the bell and that determines the second lap like if you've gone through quick you could either have the clock you could either have the clock telling you that oh gosh like I'm off the pace and I feel average that means that I'm cooked.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah you could go through too quick and you could actually feel all right you could be feeling good but it's like oh I've gone through in let's say fifty 51 instead of 53 and you're like well now I'm just waiting for the lactic to hit and it's such an interesting relationship that you've got with yourself but then also with what a a digital few pixels on a screen says and then there's other people that is a great example yeah well Matt said and thank you thank you for coming on and the podcast yeah I've massively enjoyed this this chat I think we covered covered a lot and um yeah we'd love to have you back on um back on at some time we didn't even go into a lot of the stuff that you're you're doing at the moment we can touch touch on it now and things that you're developing in the um in the future which is the the Ekaden uh so you get you know with with that that's the race director side of things um the exciting relay university relay 112k bang on bang on yeah 112k near enough along the Thames path five men five women ten per team and I guess why I'm excited about that is because yes it's a relay yes it's something unique which is exciting but actually it's potentially what it could bring to university sport and I do feel like that is a level which is being slept on in our country obviously I'm involved in it from coaching at Oxford so I'm gonna be very passionate about it but it's it's long been overlooked the power of university sport especially that at that age and what that can do to athletes careers I mean you know everyone who goes to to the NCA some people have bad experiences some people have amazing experiences but the fact that it is it is a platform um and it is a stepping stone for a lot of athletes and we need to utilize that more in this country and putting well putting a team event first but then also connecting universities with the kind of sponsors that are on board um the Financial Times ASICs um some of the corporate businesses as well you know it could be insurance brokers big Japanese banks etc um is a great platform um for students to engage with as well and so from a business area but then also just showing that the two can the two can sit alongside each other you know sport and business need to work together and they need to mix and I think that's something our sport has long struggled with is the fact that it's often been run by sporting people.
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_03: You look at world athletics right now it's it's run by people who have been there and done it as athletes.
• 1:33:25
  SPEAKER_03: How many business people do we have involved in our sport how many people are looking at our sport going how do we generate generate a revenue out of this probably not many.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that's probably why we find ourselves where we are um and so I was just gonna say yeah so that's it's it's one of the reasons why I'm I'm enjoying being a part of it and you know giving students another another platform to really step onto um and and work as a team yeah it's fantastic I think yeah the you the without going into it too much the gulf between Bucks and the NCAA I know that there is there is a trickle down the whole the whole system is very different.
• 1:34:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a trickle down financially from from these massive colleges out in the States and until you're out there you don't realize the the enormity of it and the popularity of it but I think it is it it's really important and to have something that has the just being just being a bit different and being a little bit away from just the standard receding of things and to have something with the the culture that that that Japanese relay has as well.
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a really nice fresh idea yeah it is it's it's and it and it's entertaining you know it there's there's a lot of storylines that can come out of it and I think that's something which again uh we we probably need to do a better job at sharing um and there's a lot of details to it and intricacies but uh it's it's going into it's 40 in out which is just brilliant and you can think of the storyline yeah building up qualification um and everything like that but um yeah the the quicker that sort of businesses engage in our sport outside of the you know the powerful brands the better absolutely well matt thank you very much for coming on um where should people go to find what you're doing the podcast and all the rest of it I guess head to my Instagram coach sedin and one of my one of my flaws my partner will always remind me is I I tend to talk too much.
• 1:35:28
  SPEAKER_03: I can never pull away from a conversation so um but that means it's it it's good for anyone who wants to talk to me.
• 1:35:35
  SPEAKER_01: But not if too many people want to talk to you.
• 1:35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh brilliant Matt thank you