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Alex Carter: The Bold Negotiation Begins with You · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Fold On Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Fortress and I will be your host video.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you like me, love you and inspire the people.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Get ready.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bull Lounge.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have Alexandra Carter.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She is a professor at Columbia Law School.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: She teaches conflict resolution and is a best-selling author of Ask for More.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to that, she is a frequent advisor for women and organizations who are really taking equity to the next level.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Alex.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Lee.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a pleasure to be with you.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so excited for those uh that don't know you to get to know you through the podcast and lots of the things that we'll talk about today.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I know I I skimmed a few things.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any things that you would add into kind of who you are and how you would introduce yourself?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, great question.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I would also say I was born in Brooklyn.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in New York, spent some time living abroad in Asia after I graduated college.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm settled in New Jersey.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I live in Maplewood, and I'm the wife to Greg, and I have a really feisty 12-year-old red-headed daughter named Caroline.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so my life outside of work is also really full and rich.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And she is an excellent swimmer too.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's fun to see that come into play.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can't miss that content if you're following me on any platform.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: I just love, love the cheering uh from the stands and the things that you talk through with that.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, you're a cook too.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like you are like, I you forgot to mention that part because I'm always like, oh wow, like how is she making that and where does she go?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so we'll we'll jump into some of those things.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Just a multifaceted Alex for sure.
• 2:34
  unknown: Thanks.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So my first question, uh, really, uh as I ask every guest is what is your definition of bold and what does bold look like to Alex?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Bold to me means what would I do?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: What would I think?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: What would I say?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Who would I be if I dropped the weight of other people's opinions and expectations?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: So bold for me, you know, Lee, I teach all the time about asking for more.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're listening to this podcast and you want to be paid more, that would be my love language.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love helping you get paid.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love helping you get promoted, I love helping you get that board seat, that role that you really want to get.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But boldness for me doesn't always equate to more, right?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or at least not more, always more money, more prestige, more responsibility, more title.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes being bold means dropping the weight of those expectations and taking rest.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it means stepping out of the workforce and into something else that's going to nourish you for that particular time of your life.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, boldness means stepping into the fullness of everything you are and just you without being focused on other people.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love that definition.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes bold could mean less of something.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because isn't it truly that less of something means more of something else?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right now I'm on sabbatical from Colombia.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: That means less teaching.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: It means then, therefore, that there's more I can do in other areas.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I can be more mindful of intentional rest.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I can be more present for some of those everyday moments with my daughter to continue to build our connection as she reaches her teenage years.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: It means sometimes more time for reading fiction.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, it may also mean more time for writing another book or advancing my career.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: But every time we say no or we say we want less of something, it's just the opportunity to be bold in a different area of our lives.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was really important to point out because your book, obviously, a very, very, and if you don't have this book, you should get it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very in, I think, insightful book to asking for more, to negotiating.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: But you could ask for more life, more time, more alignment.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are things that you can negotiate.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked a little bit about this before we got on the call, but in the sense of sometimes the negotiation that you need to do or the mediation that you need to do is actually between your ears sometimes, you know, in that sense.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Lee, the I say this in the book, but I say it from a deep place of knowing and experience in my own life.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: The first negotiation you have in every circumstance is the one you're having with yourself.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is really negotiation, it is about steering relationships.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I teach.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the first and most important relationship I'm ever going to have is that relationship with myself.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so to catch our listeners up, Lee and I were talking before we started recording about my sabbatical and about how I came into this.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder how many people can relate.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: You get the tiniest bit of time to rest, and you think, okay, I'm going to be the best mom in the world.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to plug in on the PTA.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to write another book.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also going to get in great shape.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to think deeply about what I'm going to do when I return to my everyday life.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's going to be my time, quote unquote, time off.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I went into it like that.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I quickly realized that I needed to renegotiate with myself.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I need to, I needed to sit down and think about, again, being bold.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's drop the weight and expectations and think about what is actually going to nourish and serve me and bring joy during this period of my life that I'm never going to get back.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so whether you are trying to negotiate more salary or get a promotion, or whether you're simply thinking about how do I want to spend the next six months of my life, that first negotiation is all about tuning in to be asking yourself some good questions so that you're negotiating successfully with yourself before you then go to talk to anybody else.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes you actually lowball, I was going to say lowball yourself, like of what life could be.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't always mean pay, like here, but I mean I know that's a big focus and should be of what we do.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes you just lowball your life of what your life could be.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just this last weekend we did the bold retreat, and some of the folks were throwing out the what ifs, if I could, the some days.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, well, someday is today.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's like dig into that a bit.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why does that feel so big?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not even willing to try for it, but you're willing to articulate something you want.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, that that that to me is like a negotiation that's happening with themselves about it's too big, or it's there's no way I could.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they already talked themselves out of their dream of all the like tips and tricks for negotiation.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: What are a few that we could use with ourselves?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So here's what I would say, and I again I come to this from so deeply understanding that it's somewhat ironic that I'm gonna quote to you from a book that I didn't think I was ever gonna be able to write.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Before I actually sat down to write, asked for more, I spent years telling myself, you'll never be able to do this.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: You are too young in your field.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're a woman, and men write negotiation books.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you haven't presented at enough conferences yet.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: And also, you're a mom of a young daughter.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: How are you gonna do that and and also you know invest in your family?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until I finally got to a place where I said, I've been longing for this forever.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's felt like this deep, deep longing to do this.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's clear that I have a calling to do it.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna try.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I will fail, but I'm just gonna try.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was an unbelievable success.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: It almost like once I got over that hump, it was like the C's parted and the book was born into the world.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you do that?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: How do you negotiate with yourself?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times, Lee, it's about the questions we're asking ourselves.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to right now give your listeners a tip for a tweak they can make that was transformational for me.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I realized that I was asking myself a really unhelpful question.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the question was, why?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't I do what other people do?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't I just sit down and write this book?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Why is it taking me so long?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Why does it feel so hard?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: We ask ourselves why questions all the time.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And all they do is they keep us stuck in blame and inaction.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: It looks backward and it's about really making yourself feel bad.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that in my conflict resolution work, I would never ask somebody why.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you do that?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you make that decision?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Why didn't you do that?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I wouldn't do that is because I know that's an unhelpful blaming question.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I shifted my mindset and instead of asking myself why, I asked myself, what?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: What makes this feel hard?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: What support might I need to be able to have time to write on top of my busy schedule?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: What help could I ask for to get there?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And when I moved from why to what, all of a sudden things shifted.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm feeling it inside me.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And what I really need from you is one weekend day every weekend where you're with our daughter, and I get four to five hours to really think and put pen to paper.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wrote the book proposal for Ask for More basically on Sundays.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I gave myself Saturday off and Sunday morning, my daughter and husband would have an adventure together, and I wrote, and that's how it got done, right?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Modern woman style.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: We fit it in among everything else going on.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it really started internally with me ceasing the blaming and instead thinking about what I could do to support myself and be supported by the people around me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of the times when you ask the question that sort of what versus why is it's a response of because.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost like a maybe internal defensive mechanism too.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, it's because I don't have time, it's because I need to spend more time on this, or it's because I I need to be whatever, insert the, you know, whatever the thing we need to be that we feel we're not being enough of, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's a list on certain days, and so I think that is a great tip for folks because I think sometimes we get in our own way of thinking of our possibilities, right?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: It it's really true.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know in the work you do, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of saying, like, why did this innovation attempt go awry, or why was this last thing not successful, talking about what was happening for us at this time, what worked, what didn't work, what might we take from this and apply to the next situation?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a subtle shift, but you could imagine how your clients all of a sudden would then be thinking about, yeah, let's look to the future.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we're diagnosing, but it's not about blame, it's simply about information.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Every time something is hard, that gives us information about how we can structure things for it to feel easier the next time.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, love that.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think too, I think people's habits around that.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you have a habit of talking yourself out of something, or you have a habit of thinking that a failure equals you're not good enough, or like things, you know, you could never do it again instead of learning from it, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: That growth mindset piece, I think it really does limit you to what's possible.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the saddest thing for me whenever I'm talking with someone is when I feel like I can't make inroads into them even seeing the possibilities that a total stranger can see.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's I I just want people to live the most and the best of their life that they can.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And to do that, you sometimes have to have that conversation with yourself about you know, you know, what is happening and why is it happening?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why does it feel so tough?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that information, like you know, my daughter always says that's just more data, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're just collecting data.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, and now let's look at the trends, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if every time I do this, I get this result.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why is that?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and what is that bringing up for me in the sense of like the feelings and the things that happened?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's usually something to unpack for sure.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, when was the first time you remember being bold?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Were you let the weight of the world's thoughts, judgments, decisions kind of not even get in the way?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Such an interesting question, and I'm I'm thinking back and I'm thinking of a story, and almost immediately I censored myself because I thought, I don't know how the story makes me look, but I'm just gonna go ahead and take it anyway.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was young, I I want to say I was six or seven, and I really wanted to learn to play the piano.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I asked my parents to get a piano, and that would have been a big investment for us at the time, and they said no.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the reason they said no was that I had taken violin when I was even younger, and I didn't like it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so they said, Well, we're gonna buy you this piano and you're not gonna use it, right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So expensive, they're still expensive.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're still very expensive, and and and now as a parent, I get it, I completely get it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: But at the time, you know, my keen senses of fairness or unfairness were just you know overwhelming.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I'm I'm gonna have to make a move here.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to a friend's house every day after school for a while, and I taught myself how to play chariots of fire, like by ear, actually.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: I had kind of an ear for music.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the next time we went to my grandparents' house, they had a piano.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I sat down and I played chariots of fire.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And my grandparents said, How marvelous! Your parents must have gotten you lessons.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I looked them dead in their eyes and I said, No, they won't buy me a piano.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when I tell you, Lee, within a couple of weeks, I had a piano and I took lessons, and actually, I went on to play really seriously for almost 10 years.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Loved it, absolutely loved it.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: But that was the first time I thought, I gotta, you know, I really want this and I gotta find a way to make it happen.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So being bold is kind of like laying your own path of how to get there.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you took an, I would say unstructured, maybe not the way that everyone learns it, right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: You did it on your own by ear and you did it at someone else's house, and you ended up actually getting to the same place that you would have, maybe not.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you got the piano, but you've got it in a way, like maybe if you've got the piano, you wouldn't have practiced or you wouldn't have fought for it in a way.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is that does that make sense?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: It in a way, I tested out their theory, and I also tested out do I really have this interest that I think I do?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it was in the process of teaching myself to do this that I thought I really, really love this.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yes, right, in a way, this taught me more, perhaps, than just them buying me the piano in the first place because it forced me to really convince myself that I wanted this.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And by the time I ended up taking piano lessons for real, I knew I had it.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that this would be something that I could do and that was going to be really fulfilling.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want to extrapolate this out into kind of like someone in their 40s and 50s having that piano moment.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I want a better job, I want a better relationship with my spouse, I want to spend more time with my kids, and then it stops there, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, it doesn't usually get handed to you.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here's your plan of how to do all those things at the same time.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what happens, at least what I see sometimes, is that people just say it, but they don't really take action, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you said it, you took action, you found a way, even though maybe someone didn't hand it to you, right?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Someone didn't give you the instrument, but you figured out how to play, right?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, someone I think when lots of people have their to-dos of what they want to do, and sometimes, like your look, your, you know, while I'm on sabbatical list is like 20 things long, maybe it just needs to be one thing long, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: How would you guide individuals in the sense of when they say they want something?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this probably goes also to negotiation and mediation, they say they want something, but it's a little harder to get there, or takes more time or takes more effort because one thing I know about negotiation and mediation is it doesn't happen overnight.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: They don't say yes, or of course, on the first one.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, what can we extrapolate from that in the sense of we want to we want to see a change or something more in our life, but we also have to realize that it might take time or effort or action or maybe inconvenience or uneasiness, yeah, and all of that's part of it, right?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I think going back to using the piano for this example, I wanted something that was of great value.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that would have been it was a major investment for my family.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And chances are it, if you've got a dream that that feels like it might take a while or might be difficult to achieve, that's because it's of great value.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so recognizing that in the first place, like almost the greater the value, the more you're gonna have to do to get there.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what a rich reward is gonna be waiting for you on the other side.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget that feeling of sitting down to my own piano and thinking, wow, I did this, you know, and now I get I get to do this for myself every day.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing I counsel people to do is to, again, we start with questions and it's to focus on this question.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: What's the problem I want to solve?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So often we just will press ahead with something, or maybe we don't, because we haven't connected it to a deeper meaning.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll give you an example.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I might have said, you know, the problem I want to solve is that I need a piano because I want to take lessons.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the ordinary way that we approach wanting to do something bold or wanting to get something for ourselves that's of great value.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: We focus in on kind of like the obvious physical thing itself in front of us.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I want this promotion, I want this raise.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: But what I want to teach people to do and what I talk about and ask for more is then following up with yourself.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So what?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what's the problem I want to solve?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I want this piano so I can take lessons.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then the follow-up question I would ask is what would happen if you achieved that?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean for you?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I think music meant something at that particular time in my life.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was a kid who I didn't always feel like I fit in in school.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was somebody who had really different interests than kids my age.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was, I always had my nose in a book.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: I did like crossword puzzles for fun.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was not a big hit at parties, Lee.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just tell you that.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, all right.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, now I feel like it's this is the magic of being an adult, is that you get to be who you are, and people will either like you or not.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I found a wonderful community of people who are into me in all my geekdom.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: But at the time, I think I wanted an outlet for expression.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to have a place, not just the act of you know, sitting down to the piano, but what that represented for me.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted a place to work out my feelings.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to Feel like I was in that state of flow.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: When I played music, it connected me to something larger in my life.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of those things were what motivated me to go and practice every day at my friend's house.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just I want a piano so I can take lessons.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was I need this outlet in my life.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I need this feeling of connection to something greater than myself.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I need a space where I can be unapologetically myself.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's who I felt I was when I sat down in the piano.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So thinking to you, right?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: If if one of your listeners was saying, Well, I really want that dream job, I want that promotion, that's the problem I want to solve, I would ask them what would happen if you achieved that?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want them to picture in vivid detail what life looks like on the other side of that and what it would mean for them specifically.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because that promotion lead means different things to everybody, right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: For one person, it might mean I'm able to provide for my family in a different way.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to be able to do this specific thing for my son that he needs, and I'm going to feel so proud for having done that, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: For another person, you know, I'm thinking of somebody in specific, getting that promotion means more learning.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: It would mean that I'm immersing myself in something new, and that's what makes me feel alive in this world.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you delve into what that deeper meaning is for you, that's often then the catalyst that shows you how very much you want that thing.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's often the first step then from contemplation to action.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that's happening, I think, in your aware of this and kind of just our environment right now is there's a lot of people who I think are either on by choice in transition or unexpectedly in transition.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the unexpected one is a different environment than the I chose it, but they probably, you know, have similarities of uneasiness and not knowing, and probably on certain days, like this is great, to like this is the worst thing.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if I don't get another job quicker, you know, like I don't know what's gonna happen.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there's probably a little bit of, I would say, back and forth in your head of like this is great and this is not great.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for folks who are, you know, working through this time period, I encourage them to think about it and pause, like you just said.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Think about like you now have an opportunity you never would have had before to think about what you want next without someone telling you what's next.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know, like myself in the corporate environment, it was like, okay, VP, senior VP, chief, and then chief to CEO is just like I know where I need to go and how I need to get there, but it was this constant, constant marathon of getting there.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if I wasn't getting there fast enough, I'd be like looking at my watch, like, okay, I should be at the next level by now.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of that, I think innately, that in the corporate world, sometimes you just it's not a bad thing, but it's like you're on this path.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you get off the path, you're like, okay, what am I supposed to do next?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: What when we think about negotiating or thinking about ourselves, you know, to move forward, are there some things that you're seeing in the world around transition that would be helpful for us to be negotiating with ourselves if we're in transition or thinking about being in it?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I would even say whether you chose it or it was unexpected, you know, sometimes even if you choose a transition, you say, I'm, I'm this is not for me, I'm gonna be looking for something else.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: You choose it because of dynamics that are present in that environment.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be uncomfortable anyway.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I see is often people, you know, may go into a particular environment with great hopes, and then it's really not what they thought.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of folks, I've I can't tell you, Lee, how many people I've spoken to over the last just this month.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, high-powered women at various stages in their career.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: One of them uh chose a transition, the other did not, but in both cases, they left what they felt like was a really toxic environment where people were characterizing them in a certain way.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're this or you're that or you're too much this, or you're not enough of that.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: How many of us have heard this, by the way?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: So many.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Raising my hands.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: We I mean, yes.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's this is, you know, perennially the problem of being a woman in the workplace.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're either too much or not enough.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll, you know, I don't know if this is a family-friendly podcast, but I'll refrain from the way we in Brooklyn would characterize that situation.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: But in both of these cases, I was talking to these women about taking time to return to themselves and who they know themselves to be first, to take time and sit down.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I'm going to give a couple of questions.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I like to ask them not even what do you want, but what do you need?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Our needs, our deep needs, drive every feeling we have in the workplace or beyond.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you've ever been in a job or in a personal relationship where it ticked all the boxes you thought on paper, but you had this deep-seated feeling in your gut that something wasn't right and you were feeling all sorts of ways about it, that's because there's a need of yours that you're not aware of that's not being met.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like to encourage people.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: I actually call this the mirror section of negotiation because it's about you looking in the metaphorical mirror to say, what are all the different things I need, right?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not Lee, not Alex, but me that I need in order to have a rich, fulfilling, and sustainable life, whether that's in the office or outside of the office.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: For some women, that's gonna look like compensation.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: For others, this could look like institutional support, seeing more people who look like me in leadership, having a place that's got a great culture and where I feel like I don't have to be some version of myself, but the fullness of who I am is enough.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yet another person might say, I want to be in a place that's gonna pay for me to be supported, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: To go to conferences, to learn, to have coaching so that I can reach my fullest potential.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really about drilling down on your needs.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to encourage people to get pretty specific.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes folks will say to me, Lee, you know, what I really need is opportunities for advancement, or what I really need is to be respected.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I like to ask people, what does advancement look like for you?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: What does respect look like for you?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want us to take these big intangibles that are so important and make them concrete.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's hard for us then to go into the next situation and say, are you gonna respect me?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's too amorphous.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But if respect to you looks like I want to be in a place where as an SVP, I'm gonna be included in the management committee conversation so that I can lead effectively.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's what respect looks like for me.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's something we can negotiate from.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to really drill down on the needs.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: The one other thing I would mention, Lee, is I like for people to ask themselves also, what am I feeling at this moment?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: What am I feeling about this situation?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is so important, especially if you're in transition, to process what came before and what it is that's going on in your mind and in your emotions around that.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is it's it's two reasons.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: One, when you think about and write down your emotions, they lose some of their hold over you.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: You might look at the paper, realize you've written something down, and say, well, everybody's gonna know I'm a joke in my next job.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've written stuff down like that before.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I look at the paper and I think, how likely is it, Alex, that your next job or whoever it is is gonna look at you and say, what a fraud.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it releases some of that power.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the other reason to write down your emotions is that emotions are, gonna quote your daughter, they're data.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Emotions tell us perhaps what we need to do about a situation, how strongly we feel about it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great way to plug into our priorities.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to transition and negotiating with yourself, I would have whether I'm, you know, coaching you personally or whether you're reading through Ask for More, which is meant to be like a coaching session for you, it's gonna have you focusing on what you need and what you feel.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And from that, you'll arrive at your next interview or whatever it is with a lot more clarity and confidence.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things that happens in transition, you know, because I quit my job without having a job.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I chose it.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I wouldn't have probably thrown until I got to that point.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I kind of like felt forced to make that choice for my health, number one.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's a process, and I think that's what I realized.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: I had to return to neutral because I was so like this is the middle of 2020 in healthcare, like just fried, you know, and I couldn't make good decisions, and I recognize that, and I had to intentionally get back to neutral, take care of myself, take a deep breath, step back.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, I wanted to like I need to get going, I need to make money, I need to like get a job, I need to like, but it's that back and forth that happens.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it was it wasn't easy to do that, and so but I knew I needed to because otherwise, my personality, and maybe this is just in general, people shouldn't do this.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't make a decision in your highest high or lowest low, you know, like but sometimes, like you know, my highest high, like I'm like, Oh yeah, let's do it, let's do it.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Then I'm like, Oh man, why did I do that?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or my lowest low is like, oh, I could have asked for more, I could have done more for myself or done better, but I was in such a low space I didn't.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes it's just letting yourself like get a little bit back to neutral to be able to then go, okay, this is what I want to do, this is what respected means to me, this is what advancement because sometimes it may not be like I want to make a half a million dollars, and maybe I just want to make a wage and that I have some alignment and I feel whole with my family, my friends, my relationships, that kind of stuff.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know that might sound woo to people, but for me, like it's it's not all about a dollar amount.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: When you say ask for more, I think it's not only around that, but it's like ask for more of having the life that you want to live.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of your book relates and can be like related to that as much as it can to helping us negotiate, which it is very, very helpful for.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Would you agree with that?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: I would agree with all of that.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're woo, then I'm right in the woo with you.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny because we're two, I think, relatively left-brained women who I think over the course of a couple decades of professional experience and experience out there in the world have realized that it's not all about grabbing the next brass ring.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a relentless, try-hard striver.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: For the first half of my life, all I was doing was looking for the next biggest, shiniest brass ring, the one that I thought would bring me the most prestige or the most wealth or whatever it was that was going to get me kudos in the eyes of other people.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I grabbed for that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't until I said no to a brass ring that I stepped into actually the calling for my life.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I was supposed to write a textbook, Lee.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: I got approached by a really prestigious legal publishing company to say, we would like you to write a textbook in your area of law.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, wow, what an honor.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is what a law professor should do, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Should, this is what I should do.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I woke up every morning getting ready to write, and I felt dead inside.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized it was because I'm not called to write a textbook.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that what I really felt called to write was a popular press book, was a book that regular, everyday people, not law professors, not people just studying in the academy, but regular, everyday people could pick up to read to make their lives better.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And when I started working on that, it was like falling in love.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the birds were singing.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: I would be somewhere and I'd be dreaming of the moment that I could sit down to write.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that book, not the textbook I was supposed to write, the book I was meant to write, ended up becoming a bestseller, right?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved not quite every minute because there were parts that were really difficult, but I loved that process.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: I knew there was nowhere else I was meant to be.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I truly believe that in the long run, when you're doing what makes you happy and where you are called to be, whatever that is, you're gonna feel the fullest version of success.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the last thing I would say is that your note that this is a process is so right.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to be real and tell the listening audience, I am still going through all the same feelings of imposter syndrome about the second book that I'm working to write now.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: You'd think you write one book, it's a bestseller, it does really well, you get a bunch of opportunities.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: You think, oh, I'm done with that now.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now I know better.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know, Lee, that every time I do something bold and I take a step up, that old imposter syndrome is gonna come back.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like welcoming an old friend.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, here you are again, you've shown up right on time, and we're gonna have a conversation, but then I'm gonna ask you to get on your way.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's also being gentle with yourself, knowing that boldness is a lifelong journey.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: If I go on and write a third book Lee, I'm gonna have this same conversation with you, right?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I'll know this is not a fault or a failing of mine.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is just that my self-esteem or self-worth hasn't caught up yet to my accomplishments.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if somebody out there is listening and you're feeling some imposter syndrome, chances are your own self-esteem hasn't caught up with how awesome you are, and you're just gonna be gonna be an ongoing dialogue about that for the rest of your life.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the club.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, welcome to the club.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're officially a member.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a great club to be in because I think what one important thing you said is like you make a bold move, and then there may be another one and another one, and you may have to repeat some of the things that you went through to get through the first one, whether you're leaning into fear or you're doing the back and forth around I don't belong here, or you're like, I just don't think that's what I should do.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes being bold is doing what everyone thinks you shouldn't, which is really where you began with your your you know, your definition.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's really, really good nuggets for people to take away.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: My last question really is around sometimes people feel that they're the only one that experiences it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm alone in this situation, no one else has ever gone through this.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you're now speaking like internationally to different groups, and and you've been doing that for a while now.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing as kind of the common thread when it comes to you know being bold or negotiating that to the next level?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing as the common thread where we're not alone?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what comes to mind when you ask that question is I used to think in order to have authority, Lee, when I was on stages where I knew I was the first woman that was ever speaking to that group, or you know, I'm I'm looking out at a sea of people and I'm feeling intimidated.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: I used to think that the only way to have authority was to pretend to be bulletproof and to pretend as though I'd never had a struggle, to only quote from research, to tell other people's stories on stage.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I got to the point where I thought, no, that's not how I lead.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: I struggle just like everybody else.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna get up from a place of authenticity and I'm gonna present that side of myself.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna talk about what I struggle with.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if people don't want to have me on their stages after that, that's on them.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to tell you, Lee, that when I got up and started opening up, and I'm talking like serious, left-brained pinstripe suit audiences, okay, I got vulnerable.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've never seen anything like it.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: The number of people of all genders who would come up to me afterward and say, thank you for giving voice to something that I have been going through, I've experienced that as well.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: I too have really struggled in this area.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think the more we um do what my friend Heather Monahan calls shining a light on shame, the more we open up space for us to be true, full, authentic leaders.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think in this respect, Brene Brown and others are folks who've really had an impact on me because I've come to think that leadership and boldness is around bringing more of yourself to that conversation.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And over the course of now speaking to audiences all over the world, I've seen what I know.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've proved out in the mediation room when people are working out an issue.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us want the same things.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be respected, we want to be seen for who we are, we want to have a voice in what happens to us and in what happens to the world.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter whether that person is my 12-year-old daughter, whether it's diplomats at the UN, whether it's Fortune 500 executives, it could be or the two of us sitting here today.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us want the same thing.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I've continued to see how when I bring more of myself as a person to my leadership, the more I've been able to connect with other people and the more people have respected my authority and not the reverse.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: So being vulnerable is a bold move.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And being able to share what I'll call my mess with everybody is valuable.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'll tell you, once you start doing that and you start like layer by layer, like letting it out and going, it's almost like you hold your breath.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Each time you do it, you're like, okay, like, is anyone gonna like me anymore?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know, you know, like how will that be seen or how will someone spend that?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: It just becomes a lot less energy.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: You have to focus on something like that, and then your energy can be in the right space and place that you want it to be.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I also I just feel like you help more people that way because they realize they aren't a lot.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I I just I can't tell you the number of times, even in my own workplace, that I've started to say things like, you know, this is bringing something up for me, or I'm really struggling with this particular thing.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I've almost immediately gotten texts from people sitting around that table saying, Thank you for doing that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: So truly, I love that.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Being vulnerable is a bold move.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we've had a pretty vulnerable conversation here today.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So aren't we both living out the mission?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, limit it, limit it live.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, thank you so much for being on the bold lounge.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Below everyone in the episode notes, you can see how to pick up, ask for more, how to connect with Alex and her work and how to keep following her.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for being on the bold lounge, Alex.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Lee, I'll come back anytime.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact on others through their unique and important stories.
• 42:21
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