Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / Why Lawyers Are So Stressed & How Mindfulness Can Change Everything - with Courtney Schulnick

Transcript

Why Lawyers Are So Stressed & How Mindfulness Can Change Everything - with Courtney Schulnick · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Wellness Esquire podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ariella and I am so excited for you to listen to this conversation with Courtney Shulnick.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Courtney is a former litigator who now teaches mindfulness to lawyers, law firms, and organizations.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: She came to the world of mindfulness through her own lived experience of stress, anxiety, grief, and overwhelm that she faced privately while functioning at a high level professionally.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Courtney and I talk about her path into law, how shoulding on herself shaped her early decisions, you know, that I should do this, I should be that, and what it was like to keep pushing through a career that never felt quite like the right fit.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about what led Courtney to realize that her wellness routine of running and yoga had just been a temporary escape, not a true solution for the fight or flight mode she had lived in at the office.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about the moment mindfulness entered her life and why it can be such a powerful tool for lawyers, not just for well-being, but for communication, performance, and responding to stress with clarity rather than reactivity.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about how hard it can be for lawyers to let anyone see that they're struggling, and we dig into what shifts when someone is brave enough to finally say it out loud.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is a conversation about stress, perfectionism, self-compassion, and learning that there is another way to live and work.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: There are about a million ways to bring well-being into your life, and I'm really grateful to Courtney for sharing how power how powerful mindfulness can be as one of those options.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening and enjoy.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I am so excited and thrilled to talk to you and to continue our conversation because of your focus on mindfulness.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll share something that I didn't share when we first met, which was that I tried out, I went once, I think just once, to the Jefferson Mindfulness Center when I was a law student, but had no real awareness at the time of like the actual stress component.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was just really sick, and I don't even know where this recommendation came from.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it might have come through from through my sister, who was a Jefferson med student.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, I had no awareness of actual, like the idea of well-being.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Anything I did to try to care for myself was from a perspective of I'm a person with health challenges.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really interesting for me to think about that now, and in the context of talking to you, and we'll get into your whole mindfulness journey.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um because when I first started, I was not ready to understand the role of stress in anything we do.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm curious in the context of you know, you start practicing law and um and what ultimately led to you becoming so focused in the way you are now in mindfulness, and we'll back up in a minute and get to that journey.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: But at the outset, did you have any awareness of the role of stress and how important it was to manage that at all?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I my body was telling me that what I was doing or what I thought I was doing to manage stress wasn't really doing me all that much good.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think in a lot of ways, what my idea of well-being was was leaving the office or whatever was stressful at the time and going for a run or going to a yoga class.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I very much had like a movement, some type of exercise component that made me feel good, whether it was the endorphins or just getting physically away from the work.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it did help, but in terms of lasting help, like when I would get back to the office and I had to go back to the work, or I had to face the difficult adversary, or I had to deliver challenging information to a client, it all was right back in my face.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was very much in fight or flight.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that I had certain vices or certain practices of wellness, but really it was essentially running away from the stressors in my life, having that time carved out for my schedule to calm myself.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: But when there were those moments where I couldn't get into downward dog and be on a yoga mat in a yoga class, or I couldn't go for a run, I couldn't leave a deposition in a conference room where we're having a deposition or getting up to open for trial, I really didn't have the tools or the resources in that moment to promote better well-being in body and mind.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And something that you said, something that you said before you dove into this question about yourself when you went to Jefferson was something to the effect where you boxed yourself up as this wounded, you didn't say wounded, but you classified yourself as being sick or not well.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of times, whether we're struggling with stress, in my case, it was stress and anxiety, that felt paralyzing in a lot of regards.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: But when we box ourselves up as our condition, as our illness, we become, we become like literally become that condition or that illness, and we can't really recognize that despite what we feel may not be working as well as we'd like for it to be, or the parts of us that we feel make us not as perfect as we'd like to be, that we already are complete and whole.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And until we can really believe that and lean into that, I think we're not able to open up as fully to resources like mindfulness or therapy or the whole gamut that we need to really feel into our wholeness, just as we are, even with you know, the diagnoses, the conditions, the parts of us that we think can be better.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're already complete and whole just as we are.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to give that a voice because that came through right as you were sharing about your introduction or your experience being at Jefferson.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: That comes up for a lot of people, and I think it really can get in the way of us being able to heal and grow and learn a lot about ourselves.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, what was your experience?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you start did you start off as a litigator?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Walk me through your legal career a little bit, both in terms of the work you were doing and also just how that was showing up inside of you and sort of your relationship with yourself through that time.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I will say that law school or being a lawyer was never on even like my top 20 list.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was the furthest thing from what I thought I would be.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the common thread throughout my life was what I should do, or thinking like, you know, if I if it was a lot of shooting on myself, thinking that to be good enough, I should do this, or uh to avoid being a disappointment to my parents or someone I shouldn't do that.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so through really not knowing what it was I wanted to do and thinking that becoming a doctor or a lawyer was prestigious.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I joke around my my brother's a doctor, and and he kind of scared me out of going to medical school.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: I say we flipped a coin and he got the doctor, I got the lawyer end of the stick.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I I had taken some time off.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you were saying that she was at Jefferson for med school.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so we uh I guess we we decided we we flipped a coin and we decided one's going in that direction, the other's going the other.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I I'd never I never had my heart set on it, but I felt like it was the right thing to do because I didn't know what else to do.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to law school and didn't I didn't really feel at home, and in a sense, not at home, like in my physical home, but a lot of it felt forced.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I just kept on thinking that when I get past the first year, it's gonna feel easier.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna become, I'm gonna get through what's known as the hardest year.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And in many aspects, second year was harder than the first year, just based on the classes I took.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, oh, I'll get through it and and and by the third year I'll be coasting.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then the bar exam came up, and and that was you know a huge challenge.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So every I just kept pushing and telling myself I should just keep going.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't really listening to the cues I was getting from my body and really allowing what I wanted to come through more than what I thought everybody else would think was best.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just kept grinding out and fast forward to when I after I passed the bar, I entered the uh, you know, I entered the profession of law and I I clerked for a year.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I was gonna go into family law, so I clerked in family court for a judge and quickly found that it was an area of law that was a little too emotional for me.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I I took whatever I could get.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I already had loans and I I wanted to pivot into something that could help me pay off the loan.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So without really having any sense of what it was I wanted to do or what I could do with my degree, I went and worked at a plaintiff's firm.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: But you'll appreciate this because your sister's a doctor.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: I went into a plaintiff's firm where the focus of the firm was on medical malpractice.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was representing uh plaintiffs who, specifically women who experienced um uh they they had complications with their pregnancies and with delivery.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we were filing lawsuits left and right against midwives, OBs, and my brother disowned me for that year.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I don't know you, you've gone to the dark side.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so it it wasn't the right fit for me, but I just from there I ended up going to the firm where I ended up being for the bulk of my career for close to 17 years, and I did defense litigation.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there really wasn't, I'd say, like a compass or a goal in mind.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just kept kind of saying I should keep at this, and all along with each of the different roles, there were certain aspects of it that I did enjoy, but for the most part it it wasn't it didn't play into the parts of me that I think allowed me to be fully comfortable.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I just I just kept thinking, oh, when I get more experience as a litigator, this will feel right.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: So about the midway, the midpoint of my 20 years as a litigator, I kind of hit a wall in the sense that I was overwhelmed with stress, anxiety.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was really run down.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I had had two sons.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had I had one son when I first began, or sorry, I I had just gotten married when I started working at the the defense firm where I spent the bulk of my career.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then a few years into that position or being with that firm, we had our first son.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I was somewhat able to keep up with the pace.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I did actually really well the first couple of years, but then fast forward we had uh a third, sorry, second son, but in between, and cut me off if I'm I'm a talker.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm if okay.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's anything you want to ask in between, just just say pause.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I we we had had some for fertility issues in between son number one and some son number two, and throughout it all, I didn't miss a beat at work.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just again that that theme of I shouldn't, you know, I shouldn't slow down and I don't want to mess up, and I wanna I want to prove to them that you know I'm I'm I'm the right person for the job.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I just kept pushing through despite a lot of loss in between the our first son and our second.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: When I when I eventually had our second son, did you have colleagues who did you have any colleagues who knew you were going through the infertility and all the challenges and pain and and how much you were pushing through?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, there weren't a lot of there weren't a lot of so uh associates, female associates who were in my position who were who were married and had children.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: There were older partners who were mothers, but they were their their children were long out of the house, they'd been in college or graduated, married with their own children.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there wasn't really anyone who I felt, again, I had I had friendships and and close colleagues, but there wasn't anyone that I felt was would understand.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in many regards, I was afraid to, I think this comes up a lot for people in the legal profession, that if we let our guard down, if we show how anxious we are about uh a discovery motion, we have to argue in court, if we if we feel worried about possibly losing a case, we don't necessarily want our colleagues to see that, and and we surely don't want our clients to know about that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I just pushed through.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and it it came back to bite me in many regards because after we had our our second son and he wasn't sleeping, everything had been building up, but I just kept suppressing it and turning turning away from it.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I I knew I felt it in my body.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't feeling well uh emotionally, I just felt overwhelmed, both on the home front, but the littlest thing, uh a contentious email from an attorney on the other side would just send me from zero to a hundred.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't able to focus as well at work.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And many times, despite how how loving I was to my kids, when I was at work, I was feeling bad about myself as a mom, feeling like I wasn't as present, as fun as I could be, because when I was at home with them, I was worrying about deadlines at work or trying to strategize.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I was at work, I would be thinking, like, oh my gosh, you know, I wasn't really attending to that or attending to them.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: So so it was a vicious cycle, and I eventually realized it was it was another additional loss.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: The the dog that we had gotten before we had our first child, we had a dog who I considered to be our first child, and he got sick suddenly.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was in work and he passed away that night, and it was totally unexpected, but that was the straw that broke the camel's back, and that is when everything that had been sort of tucked away, and I kind of just turned my head away from and I didn't allow myself to feel the the grief, it came to a head with the passing of our dog, and that that was when I realized that I didn't want to, I didn't want to show up for my kids, for my husband, for my clients.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to show up in the way that I was.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I I had been working together with a therapist to better manage stress and anxiety for many years.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and she said, Why don't you look into mindfulness?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't even think I had heard of mindfulness.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just asked her, What's that?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, she explained to me briefly what it what it is and and suggested that I look into what's known as the mindfulness-based stress reduction program, which is an eight-week program that meets once a week for eight consecutive weeks, two and a half hours for each session.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the thought of adding anything else to my plate, I was already like stretched so thin from I was biking.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: I lived in Queen, the people who are listening who know Philadelphia, I was living in one end of the city, Queen Village.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was biking every day up to center city to the law firm, working long hours to get back to care for a toddler and a newborn, and it was the last thing that I wanted to add to my plate.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I put it off and I bought some workbooks.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I went to the bookstore and I was curious enough about what mindfulness is, and I knew that I didn't want to feel the way I was feeling.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: But if there was a deadline at work or something came up in my personal life, I I couldn't hold myself accountable to actually practice, to sit, give myself even five minutes to take time for myself and meditate.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really follow the cadence of the workbook.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so finally the stress levels just took on another, another uh they grew exponentially the stress and anxiety grew exponentially, and that is when I said, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna enroll.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and funny as it is, my my brother, who I'm talking about a lot about my brother, I feel like, but he he wanted to learn it to bring it into his work.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: He he's an ER doctor, and he thought that it would make him more present for his patients.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So he said, he said, I'll take it with you.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we were both living in the city, and uh every Thursday night from I believe it was from 6:30 to 9, we we would go to this the MBSR class.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And a few weeks in, about three weeks in to the eight-week program, there was a little shift where I noticed a smile come over me.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I noticed that when I was walking in to the law firm and stepped foot in the the door to the building and got on the elevator, there wasn't like the drop in my stomach, and I didn't go into fight or flight as I powered on my computer.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Little little ways I started to notice that the stress was melting away.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it really that was the beginning of a really beautiful journey.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was the moment where I realized that taking good care of ourselves isn't about just leaving the office and going to work out, that it takes some work to really understand how our minds work, to notice how we can create a lot of unnecessary suffering by how we label ourselves, what we tell ourselves, and to realize the importance in turning towards what is, even when it can be really challenging emotionally, physically, situationally, is that a word?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Situationally, but experience-wise, and and that there's a way to dip our toes in the water, that we can bring a sense of gentleness and still be really badass in the work that we do as litigators, but more badass towards ourselves.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, we we can still do the great work that we do.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: As litigators, as doctors, as investment bankers, you know, whatever role, whatever professional role, or just being in life, that we we can start to notice how hard we are in ourselves.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that clear seeing is what allows us to relate to ourselves, to notice how we're perceiving people and situations in our life.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that really becomes the gateway to cultivating more wellness in body, in mind.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a long way of of explaining how I came to mindfulness, but it was from that experience, from that initial program of MBSR, that I said, this is something that I need.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is this is a gift that I don't ever want to let go of.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it just continued to grow and to strengthen through a committed and regular practice.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Can you explain what it looks like to practice mindfulness?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And in answering that, um, can you talk about how many ways, how many different kinds of exercises there are to practice?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying it that way because I think a lot of people might just hear about mindfulness and hear about meditation, you know, go to one class or listen to one recording, think, oh, I didn't like that, so this whole thing isn't for me, without realizing that actually there's so many ways.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So go ahead.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is a great question because mindfulness is innate.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's our natural capacity to be aware.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and just for people listening who don't know what a what mindfulness is, in a nutshell, mindfulness is present moment awareness.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: The formal definition that was given by John Kabitson, who created the program that I teach at Jefferson, that the mindfulness-based stress reduction program, is paying attention on purpose in the present moment with an attitude that is non-judging.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so each of us have within us this natural ability to be aware, to be present in our lives.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: But oftentimes we're checked out, we're disconnected because we worry about the future, we rehash the past, give ourselves a hard time for something that we said or feel like we should have done, or we're judging ourselves or others.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're very distracted, we're anything but present.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: So just for people who don't know what mindfulness is, mindfulness is our ability to notice when we're checked out, when we're disconnected, when we're not paying attention.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And with that awareness, we can redirect attention to the here and now.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a number of ways to practice.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: There are formal practices.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So formal practices are the body scan.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we bring attention into the body and we just open to sensations that exist throughout the body as we move our way.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can begin at the top of the head and move down to the feet, or vice versa, from the feet up to the head.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: There is an awareness of breath practice, there's mindful walking, there's mindful eating, but there's also practices where we can informally weave mindfulness into our lives so we can be walking and not walking like informal practice where we say we're gonna walk 10 steps and just go back and forth.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: We can be walking through the airport, getting ready to catch our flight to um, I wish Hawaii.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, we can we can informally weave mindfulness into our daily lives just by paying attention as we're walking, feeling our feet, making contact with the floor in the airport, feeling the body breathing, noticing sounds rather than you know being checked out and just looking at our phones and not even knowing that we're actually walking.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, so there's in terms of practice, formal practice, where we say, okay, I'm going to take even just five minutes to rest attention on the sensation of the breath.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's what strengthens the muscle of our mind so that when we're in the grind of our daily lives, whether it's driving our kids to school, walking our dog, dealing with a difficult attorney, you know, sitting in the office waiting for our doctor to see us for our appointment, we can notice where our attention is.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are we catastrophizing?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are we thinking about something from earlier in the day?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the more we practice formally, we strengthen the muscle of the mind so that we can then notice where attention is and bring it back into the here and now.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So just wanted to explain that there are many ways to practice mindfulness, but there's formal, informal, and and and not to forget that throughout all of practice, whether it's formal or informal, that the attitude that we're cultivating is one that's gentle, curious, kind, and as much as possible non-judging?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when you started bringing mindfulness into your life, it's clear that you started after a few weeks of training noticing changes in yourself and the way you were showing up in your life and your work.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did other people also point anything out about so?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: What did you hear from others, whether it was colleagues or your husband or other people?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there was uh uh a male associate who I was close with at the office, and I had shared with him that I was taking this program.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: We were both pretty stressed out.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: We had started the firm around the same time, and he started to notice a difference.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I would confide in him a bit about what was stressing me out at the office, and I felt like I could share with him about the ways in which the MBSR program was really supporting me.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I caught his attention in many ways because he noticed my demeanor change in the in the office, and and just from what I was telling him about the program, I I think I sparked some curiosity in him.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I really credit him in a lot of ways for deepening my mindfulness journey because he said, you know, there's so many of us who are just really stressed out out of our minds here, and I would like to learn more about it, and I think that there are other people here who who could really benefit from it.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, you know, I I took the eight-week program.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: I had a very uh committed practice, a daily practice, but I didn't think I was good enough to speak about it.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: But he sort of planted a seed and I got excited about it because in in some aspect I I felt a little bit like a cult leader.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I wanted to share, I wanted to a mindfulness cult leader.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to, I just knew all the cult leaders were focused on mindfulness and well-being, right?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: The world, what a place it would be.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I just felt like, you know, let's work towards that.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: See how many I can bring in, but I I just I knew I realized there was another way of being and there was another way of living.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I really did see how much suffering there was.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I amazing talent at the firm.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I said, you know, we we can do better collectively if we all have these tools and we have these resources, and and I wanted to, I wanted to share it.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to share it with my loved ones, I wanted to share it with strangers on the street.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I just really felt compelled to help others in in whatever way I could.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so when he planted that seed, it took me to kind of realize that I was a little intimidated.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what would these people think?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: That I'm gonna go into the boardroom and talk to them about mindfulness and no less like the partners.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it spooked me out, and so it it was it was great insight to see how we can get in our own way by the things we tell ourselves.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got the courage to approach the head of programming at the firm, and he did a lot with CLEs, and I said, you know, what about a lunch and learn where we just we'll weave it into the workday, and what we did was it was an hour.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I created a PowerPoint, and lunch was provided, so there was an incentive with food, and I got in there and I was nervous, I was nervous and but also really excited, and it was it was that day when I was standing in front of a a large group of partners, associates, and I was in, it was it was in the boardroom, and I looked around and I realized I loved standing in front of a room sharing these tools, these practices, talking about mindfulness and explaining to them ways that we could really support ourselves to be in a profession that's as challenging as law, no less being a litigator, and we can actually become stronger for it.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that was when I realized I wanted to take this to another level, to not only deepen my own understanding for my personal benefit, but so I would feel more confident and more capable of helping other lawyers who were very much like me struggling to find balance in their lives, to reduce stress, anxiety, chronic pain, and and and and really live a more fulfilling life, both professionally and personally.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: What was the reaction you got after that luncheon, Larn?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was overwhelmingly positive.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that people, I thought maybe there'd be one or two people who were like, wow, that was helpful.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the outpouring of gratitude from from people I didn't even know that well, and and really um respected partners at the firm and and people who, you know, on the outside you think like they have it all together, but who were really deep down, they they were struggling, and they shared with me that even informal tools by just pausing to take a few relaxing sighs throughout the day, or the the pointers about just slowing down to to notice, you know, um, are we intentionally living our life in the way that we'd like?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just little tidbits.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: People for weeks and weeks and weeks, I'd get emails, or someone would come by my office door and say, hey, you have a moment to talk, and they would just thank me.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it felt it felt really good to uh A, get to talk to people who I had worked with for years, but we never uh we never had a reason necessarily to talk other than to say hi when we passed each other, but to know that in some way I offered them a sense of support and that if they wanted to, they could they could deepen their understanding, their practice, but but planting that seed for them to to nourish and and to to nourish themselves felt like a uh it just felt like a gift to me, but a gift to them.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: This whole story is something I find really interesting because I've heard so many variations of of this from so many lawyers.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and the the gist is, you know, this idea that oh, we all think uh as we know that we're really good at hiding how we're feeling.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: We all most of us have the experience of kind of crumbling on the inside and we can put on a show, and we somehow think that no one else is doing that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And forget that everyone else is actually struggling in some small or gigantic way.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And often, you know, people will put aside, you know, taking the time they need, um, whether it's going on leave or finding practices that help them, because they look around and think, well, everyone's got the same workload as I do, and they seem to be fine, forgetting the fact that, well, you're hiding that you're not fine.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: So why do you think they're okay?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then when people do end up often finding these practices, they're they often go through, okay, it's helping me, this is amazing, but I don't want to be too sort of loud or bold about it because people might think I'm weird.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because no one talks about this stuff.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then, yeah, once people do get the courage to say, I'm doing great and this stuff is helping me, maybe it'll help you.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Then those people who are so brave enough to say it out loud start hearing from everyone else who's raising their hand to say, I'm also crumbling.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: I need tools.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, misery loves company, but it's it's so much more than that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the real learning, growing, and healing that can take place in mindfulness programs isn't as as great as I can be as a teacher.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not necessarily me, but when a group of lawyers or a group of human beings are in a room together and people are willing to get vulnerable and share about what they're struggling with, whether it's the nature of the work, whether it's something that they're experiencing from a medical condition, whatever it is, when someone has the courage to come forward and to share, and someone else in the room, the power of being in community, and when someone has the courage to come forward and share what it is they're being challenged by, whatever it may be, I was saying whether it's the nature of the work, whether it's something in their personal life, uh, something they're grappling with in terms of a medical condition, when someone can come forward and another person in the room can hear them share and know that they're not alone.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: That we're all in this together, that you know, there's there's a sense of connectedness and a sense of togetherness, we all become stronger for that.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really wonderful when mindfulness can be learned together as teams, as colleagues, as as human beings.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I I do think that so much of the growth and the capacity and potential for healing and for uh understanding ourselves comes through by being in community with others and others being willing to share what what is truly coming up for them.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I a thousand percent agree.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: During COVID, I started hosting these um I call them chit chat check-ins for lawyers and law students, and people would just get together virtually and just talk about how they were doing.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it was incredible to watch people even just their eyes change when they would show up from week to week, and even from like the beginning of a call until the end, when they would just start out finding out that it wasn't just them, whatever it was for them, whether they were experiencing anxiety or depression or trauma um or imposter syndrome or you know, not knowing what to do when they made a mistake or a health, whatever it was, they would go in being so, you know, oh my god, it's just me.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I suck kind of a perspective so often.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: And or you know, with embarrassment or shame or just like numbness.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, as someone else would start to share their story, and they just you'd see like them, they would just come to life.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it yeah, when we can, and that's part of what I'm so excited about with building out the wellness esquire community is to put everybody together, all these people who already starting out with the people who already know the value of community and vulnerability and authenticity and these you know, this range of practices, and then bringing on in the pe you know everyone, but especially people who really need that support because they haven't had it before.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it can be game changing.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: It can be, and and you do it, it comes through.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I've I've led hour-long workshops where you walk into a room and and people are so closed off, and and you can tell there's tightness in their body, and they're guarded.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And by the end, there's a certain lightness and openness and easiness, and you see smiles, and you see almost like a light coming through their eyes.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: It it can be really transformational and it doesn't have to be a heavy lift in terms of hours on end of practicing, but being in the community and sharing and and hearing others and what they're going through and how they're feeling and what's challenging in their lives, it really is one of the greatest uh supports and support systems that we as human beings can can cultivate together.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I give you a lot of credit for what you've created and what you're what you're growing, and it it's it's really an honor to be a part from a small a small part to to how we can really um support one another in the legal sector.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk a little bit about the specific impacts you have seen or others that you've worked with have seen or your colleagues on on their work product uh once they started incorporating mindfulness?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm asking specifically because I think there are so many lawyers, and I used to be one of them, who think, oh, all this well-being talk is great, and but like I'll be happy later.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: First, I just need to get through this work now.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've got so much to do, and aren't necessarily aware yet of understanding how much better their work quality will be, how much faster they they'll be able to think um, you know, how much their creativity will boost, all of those sorts of things.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a a lot of different directions I can go with that.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: One that lawyers don't realize because, as lawyers, and especially litigators, where there's very much an outcome that we want, we want to win our cases.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we get so laser beam focused on winning and the outcome we think is best, that oftentimes we miss out on messages and information, really valuable information that we're getting from our clients.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Our clients may not necessarily want to take this to the end of the road and go through litigation.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: They may Have other concerns, they may have obligations in their personal life and in terms of their professional demands, that that's not their idea of a win.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: They may want an alternative to that, or they may want to settle a case early.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we're not practicing mindful listening, that deep level of presence and and and getting cues from our clients, then we're totally missing.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're missing out on how we could do the best job and be the best advocate for our clients.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: So from a mindful communication standpoint, I've worked with teams and organizations to deepen their ability to be present, to truly listen to what it is their clients want.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of performance and attorneys grappling with stress and anxiety, whether it's gearing up for trial or having to get in front of a judge and argue, there are really helpful ways that we can reduce stress and anxiety through formal practices.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I've worked together with a number of attorneys who have noticed that those moments where they would previously go into fight or flight, that they're feeling more at ease.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're more at ease, they can respond in more conscious ways and they can deliver the message that they want in a more effective style.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then in terms of um just overall well-being, I've worked with a number of attorneys who struggle with sleep.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that if we're not feeling rested, if we're not getting a good night's sleep, that that just sets the tone for the rest of our day.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so people who who wanted to find better ways to bring deeper well-being, whether it's sleep, whether it's uh setting healthy boundaries in their lives, so that they're not 24-7 connected to their work, but that they're able when they're when they're deliberately doing work, they can focus clearly on what you know, the task at hand.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're at home and and they want to enjoy time with friends or family or even be by themselves and watch a show, that they can allow themselves to have that time.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we we we work together to it's it's a it's a it's not necessarily any one piece, but the the total um wellness in in both um our personal lives and our professional lives.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you no longer practice and you just you work with you're focused on bringing mindfulness and well-being practices to lawyers, to law firms, to other organizations.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: How does that feel for you now?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: It feels truer to what I really want out of life and what I what really fulfills me in uh a professional sense.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that I'm I'm grateful.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't regret my path with law, going to law school, or practicing as a litigator.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it is the path that brought me to where I am now, and it helps me to really appreciate how inherently stressful it can be to work as a lawyer or a professional in another sector, whether it's finance, tech, medicine, and to be able to support those professionals in their respective roles.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: But to to get to help people like in a different way than handling a case, but to help, you know, that was one type of fulfillment where I could hold people's hands through a sc through a scary process of litigation, but to go beyond that to to help people strengthen these innate inner resources that we all have that they can carry into their everyday life.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: That to me is a real gift.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: I feel really lucky that each day I get to wake up and I get to do something that I love, and in turn, I help people to find more joy and well-being and fulfillment in their lives.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh I just keep coming back to feeling like it's a it's a gift on a lot of levels.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Can you share one simple mindfulness practice that anyone could start today?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you want me to share like a uh I'd be happy to we if if you have the time, we can just do like a a three-minute guided practice if you'd like.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: But if not, I can just I can just share.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's do it.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna I'm just gonna leave a very short practice.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that as long as we're alive, that the the breath is here for us, right?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a a wonderful way to allow attention to come more and more fully into the body.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: The the body is always in the present moment, whereas the mind, as we spoke about, can time travel, it can take us into the past and rumination.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: We can get caught in worry of what's to come.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if we allow attention to come more and more fully into the body, it can help us to ground ourselves, to connect more fully with the present moment.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the breath can be a really wonderful way to feel into the body and to invite a little bit of ease.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just going to take a few moments.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll guide us through an awareness of breath practice, and we can begin by just noticing how we are in the moment.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: So just taking a moment to notice how does it feel in the body, noticing maybe areas of tightness, maybe areas of ease, and as much as possible, not judging your experience, remembering that with mindfulness, there's no right or wrong way to feel, and just noticing how it is in the mind.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very busy mind.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're caught up on your to-do list, maybe you're rehashing something from earlier in the day and not having to change anything, just simply noticing.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Noticing any mood states that are here.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: There might be a sense of sleepiness, wakefulness, joy, sadness, maybe a mixture of emotions.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: And really just allowing yourself to be exactly as you are.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And gently gathering attention, inviting attention to come into the body, maybe beginning by noticing the points of contact that the body's making with the chair, the cushion, maybe noticing the connection between the soles of the feet and the ground, or perhaps where the hands are resting.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And gathering attention a bit more into the body, noticing the sensation of the breath.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: You might be noticing the felt sensation of the breath in the region of the belly, or perhaps the chest, just noticing how the belly, the region of the chest gently rises with each in-breath.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: And sensing the gentle release with each outbreath.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you're noticing the breath more easily in the region of the nostrils, perhaps sensing the subtle movement of air coming and going with each cycle of breath.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing that there's no right or wrong way to breathe when being mindful.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're wondering if you're doing this right or wrong or trying to control or change the breath in any way, just letting the breath breathe at its natural pace.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're working really hard to notice where the breath is most vivid, maybe just sensing the whole body breathing.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: So not having to figure anything out.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not having to work hard at this, but just simply receiving each unfolding breath.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: Letting sounds come and go, letting thoughts, mood states all be as they are.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: So not having to push anything away and for this short period of time not having to engage in thoughts, not having to strategize, fix, or otherwise resolve anything, really just allowing yourself this final few minutes or so of our practice to simply be and to rest in the awareness of simply being.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then with the outbreath, the breath just lets go.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: So for these final few moments, if it feels supportive, maybe allowing each outbreath to carry the most gentle of invitations to relax.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: To let go.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you've been practicing with your eyes closed, as you feel ready, gently inviting your eyes to float open, slowly taking in your visual field, maybe noticing lights, colors, shapes, and opening to receive the sound of the bell.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then just taking a moment to notice how you are, and maybe you'll notice that you're feeling a bit more grounded, a bit more present, and remembering that unlike how some of us attorneys may be in our cases where we need to have a certain outcome, that with mindfulness, it's not about having to feel any particular way, not demanding that we have any particular outcome.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: But what's most important is that we're cultivating a sense of awareness.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when we can be more aware of how we are in body and mind, then we know how to better care for ourselves.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: So just wanted to make sure everyone knows that it's really the awareness piece and being really gentle with ourselves.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was short, great, and and and it was a few minutes of a practice, but even just even just taking a moment when we're like in the midst of our busy days to just slow down and to notice that we're breathing.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that's been really powerful for me to recognize as I've incorporated these sorts of practices is it doesn't have to be 20 minutes.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to do and can do and can carve out the time for 20 minutes, great.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Even 30 seconds can be so impactful.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you know you're starting from a place where you're just so strung out that you can't even fathom five seconds, okay.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you start with three.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get to four, and then you get to five, and then you're like, and it it's you know, understanding how you just can incorporate these really powerful tools in what I think of as the empty moments of your day.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you don't feel like you can truly carve out time, just like while you're, you know, going up the elevator or waiting for food to heat up, there are all these ways that you can just incorporate a version of what we just did, which was fantastic.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can come out of those 30 seconds or three minutes feeling like a fresh person.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, I think when I first tried it, I was in such a different place.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't, you know, I think some people may not even be ready to understand how impactful it can be.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's there's kind of a there's a mind shift to even accepting, oh, I'm gonna try this.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, I believe that this could do something, but if you can just get yourself willing to try and give it a few tries and try out different versions and see what works for you, then you've got this incredible tool.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: I and just that you're reminding me that when I walked into the first when I when I walked into the first MBSR program or first class of the MBSR program, and my teacher guided us in a body scan meditation, and I was just a ball of stress.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I walked out of the class that night feeling even more stressed out.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what I realized in the weeks to come that I was so rigidly holding on, like wanting to get from a certain place of being really anxious and stressed, that I sh was striving so hard to feel more relaxed.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to be able to notice that that when we're trying so hard to get from one place to another or be something other than what we are in the moment, that that actually works against us.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, so just to give yourself time and patience to let things unfold.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if after the first practice, it's just maybe not what you it's not leading to you feeling how you want to feel or how you Yeah, yeah, like it's not the way it should be.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: That that that you just know that small glimpses many times can lead to a profound transformation.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're used to the fast pace of life and and basically what we put our eye on, what we put our minds to, that we make it happen, but it's a different way of being.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're open to it, it it can really show up for us in pretty powerful ways.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: Very, absolutely, very powerful.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Anything else you want to share that we haven't covered?
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would just share that if you're unsure, uh if you know mindfulness isn't for everyone, but if you're unsure of whether or not it's for you and you want to learn more, you can visit my website.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's Courtney Scholnickmindfulness.com.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: And on the website, there is a lot of information about what mindfulness is, why it can be so beneficial in our lives, and there are a lot of articles that specifically speak to the benefits of mindfulness for legal practitioners.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: There are free resources, anything from really short, like three-minute guided meditations, video and audio, to some longer practices, but really just remembering to cut ourselves some slack when possible.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: That as attorneys, we work really hard and we do so much for others and care for others that oftentimes we put ourselves in the back burner.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: So knowing that we can't pour from an empty cup, that we need to put ourselves in the front seat and take good care of ourselves.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what allows us to do the high-level work that's demanded of us in the legal profession.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, so uh, other than that, uh, I'm really active on LinkedIn.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: If people want to learn more about what I have coming up or ways to learn more about mindfulness in general, you can connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I will also share all of your links.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for spending your time with me and giving your energy um to this conversation and for I loved that mindfulness practice.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I while I do incorporate all sorts of these um, you know, kinds of practices into my life, I do have a ton going on.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really benefited from that.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for that.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so thrilled to have you on the world.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for inviting me to be here.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for holding this space for me to share what it is I love teaching and in turn, all the people who can gain these resources and all the work you're putting into supporting the legal sector.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's admirable, and I know it's making a difference in the lives of many.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's made a difference in my life.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really grateful to have met you and whatever I can do to continue to support your work, just let me know.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe right now.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to know you.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time.