Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Times of High Risk: The Most Dangerous Times with HCPs
Transcript
- Speaker 1 (00:04): Welcome to, it's All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie. Speaker 2 (00:22): Hi everybody. Speaker 1 (00:23): We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. We focus on training, consulting, and educational programs and methods, all to do with high conflict. In this episode, we're discussing risk and the concerns surrounding times of high risk or times of risk with people with high conflict personalities. As of this recording, we've just completed the Christmas holiday and we're close to New Year's. The holidays can trigger a lot of upsets, which creates some times of high risk. We're gonna talk about that today. First, a couple of notes. If you have a question about a high conflict situation, send it to podcast high conflict institute.com or through our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find all the show notes and links. Please give us a rate of review and tell your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We're very grateful. Speaker 1 (01:25): All right, so let's talk about times of high risk with high conflict people. Bill, you've written and talked about this, um, a lot in the past and, uh, you know, seems like conflict over the past two to three years, as we've seen across the news and with people who call us and, and contact, come to our trainings even. Um, and we, we pull the audience and say, you know, what's your experience with conflict the last two or three years? Has it increased? Has it stayed the same? And very few say it's stayed the same or decreased, but generally it's increased. Um, so, you know, maybe times of of risk are even higher now than in the past. But let's, let's talk about it. Um, why is this a greater concern with high conflict people than with the average person? Speaker 2 (02:11): Well, high conflict people lead kind of rollercoaster lives, and so they're very reactive to what happens in their environment, especially around relationships. And that can be re family relationships, close friend relationships, uh, living relationships like neighborhoods, uh, homeowners association, condominiums, um, just all levels of relationships. And as we talked earlier, I'll, I'll be specific about some different personalities. So we talk about high conflict people as having targets of blame, all or nothing thinking unmanaged emotions and extreme behaviors. So what are the triggers for those? Well, if they also have borderline personality traits, then abandonment is a big trigger for them, and they're gonna take it out on their target of flame, which may be a partner or someone else close. Then you have people with narcissistic, uh, high conflict personalities, and they're very susceptible to narcissistic injuries. You know, the setback cuz they see themselves as superior and so something goes wrong. Speaker 2 (03:28): They have to blame somebody cuz it can't be about them. Um, antisocial high conflict, people like to dominate people, and if they lose a person to dominate, like say someone divorces them who they were used to dominating, then that's a, that's a difficult thing for them to cope with. Histrionic personalities want to be center of attention. If you're not, they may cause a crisis to get more attention. And people with paranoid personalities really fear people are out to get them. And it's very easy for a very minor thing to trigger that fear and their way over reaction to that. So these unconscious fears, and they're all unconscious. So it's important you don't say to somebody, oh, you're a narcissist, you're afraid of a narcissistic injury. That must be what's happening. No, no, no, you don't say that. You protect yourself. You think, what do I need to do to be safe during this time of high risk with this person because they're about to get fired or have some kind of public humiliation. So it's that sensitivity to any relationship, uh, changes that often triggers a time of high risk with high conflict people. Speaker 1 (04:48): Hmm. I just this week, the young lady fixing my hair, uh, my hairdresser came out of the bathroom when I arrived and she was in tears and I, uh, gave her a hug and what's going on, I figured it had to do with a boyfriend. And she immediately said, oh, my boyfriend's such a jerk. He's just a narcissist. And I told him he was and he said, no, you're a narcissist. So just as, as as we predict, if you tell someone they are, they're gonna tell you that no, you are. Um, and it usually won't go well. Um, so I'm, I'm kind of interested around this, this topic of, um, or the, you know, the concept of it being unconscious. And I think, you know what, a lot of people will ask what that means, and it's really that, you know, they, they don't know that, uh, you know, this, this reaction they're having where they just can't tolerate that loss. Like that abandonment or what that narcissistic injury, right? This is all just happening behind the scenes in the brain. They have no idea, and you probably don't either, right? The person opposite them, Speaker 2 (05:48): The more you're educated on this subject, you might go, oh, this might be a difficult time. The news I'm about to give this person is gonna be particularly difficult for them, so I need to be prepared for their reaction. And so, so I think that we're not totally, uh, oblivious, especially if you've gotten to know somebody. There's become, you know, high conflict people are more predictable than the average person. They can repeat a narrow pattern of behavior. So let's say they're somebody who just ghosts you or disappears and you're gonna give them bad news, and then you have to work out a contract with them for some business deal. Well, you give them bad news and they're gone. And it's like, you should have predicted that and got your contract done before you gave the bad news things, things like that. So I think seeing patterns, and mostly it's really repeating the patterns you've seen before, but it may be that it stays the same or that it escalates. And that's the thing to watch out. If someone physically reacts, punches, holes in walls, um, throws things, then when they're really getting bad news, they may strike out and be hitting somebody, hurting somebody. So it's that idea they have an aggressive pattern of behavior and what would the next couple steps be if they escalate? And so, so I think it's, it's predicting that is, is what we're hoping to teach people because you can have some idea, not exact, but some idea that you're going to get a difficult time with this person, Speaker 1 (07:37): Right? Yeah. I don't think anyone would really be taken by surprise because when you're around someone with a high conflict personality, you, you know, it, it's always, it, it's typically miserable , right? And, um, you know, there are a lot of highs and lows and confusing times and, um, you may have felt under attack or felt uneasy or you're just crying a lot. So I, I think those are, are, are signs that we should all pay attention to. And if you are giving that piece of bad news or you have to leave or you know, have that difficult meeting, yeah, you, you, you have to be aware of those things. Um, one more thought on the conscious part, and then we'll move on conscious versus unconscious is even though we're aware maybe that this person we, um, have to, you know, interact with or give bad news to, uh, I think behind the scenes what's happening in that unconscious part is because they fear they have that fear level of, of abandonment. Speaker 1 (08:33): And when that abandonment gets triggered, it's just they don't stop and think, right? They're not going to, they're going to immediately, uh, go into the, the right brain, just get trapped in those right brain emotions. And that's where this extreme behavior comes from. As, as you and I were talking, uh, and kind of planning this episode bill, it kind of came from a, a news article out of Canada where in a, a man, um, I think he went into a, uh, homeowner's association board meeting and, and killed people, like shot six people or something. And so let's talk about that. Speaker 2 (09:12): Yeah. Well, I, I can actually, I've been studying that it's, it was a condominium situation and he kept picking fights with people, especially on the board, the condominium board. And because he'd had years of conflicts, uh, high conflicts that they were getting ready to, to, uh, request a court order, uh, requiring him to leave to basically to sell his condo and leave the, the community. And, and I believe he was aware of that. And what happened is, uh, they had a Christmas party and everybody came and he was there and he was apparently having a good time. And then a week or a week and a half later, um, he went and knocked on the doors of the different condominium board members and he, he killed a board member and their spouse, another board member and their spouse, and then the spouse of the chair of the board. So five people he shot and killed, Speaker 1 (10:24): Not in the same room. They were in different, like in their own individual condos. Speaker 2 (10:28): Yeah. He, he knocked on their doors. And so who, who can expect to knock on the doors gonna be somebody with a gun that's gonna kill you? I mean, that's pretty frightening. But in terms of predictability, you can't predict exact things that are gonna happen. But in my mind, this is an example of where if he's very aggressive and, and moody mood swings and seem to have a pleasant time at the party, so mood swings, including pleasant moods, that some of these personalities really swing back and forth. And so when you see extreme aggressive unmanaged rage on the one hand, and then pleasant behavior, like nothing happened, on the other hand, that's someone that may have abandonment fears. That's, that's somewhat part of the borderline pattern. The mood swings sudden intense rage out of proportion. And so if you recognize that pattern, with that comes a fear of abandonment. Speaker 2 (11:35): So now we're going to evict you from our community that just had you at their nice party. And no matter how much this person says they hate you, and they never want to see you again, and they're gonna threaten to move, they don't want to, those are threats. And so when they threatened to kick him out is when it reached, it escalated to this point. So I think the point of this story is if you're going to be evicting somebody who's got a high conflict personality, you need to do it carefully and also know that, that you may be in danger from this person and think of, you know, you may need to have some kind of, uh, security, some kind of protections and some way to avoid this person. And now we know, don't answer the door if you're on the board of a condo association that's about to evict a high conflict person. Sad to say. Speaker 1 (12:36): Yeah, very sad to say. And it's, it's, and we're not saying that, you know, someone with, you know, a borderline personality or narcissistic or you know, bad people, um, it's just, this is risk. They're in ti that's just like the title of this, this episode. This is times of high risk. These are the highest risk situations as you, and as you said, bill, these are, these can be very predictable and not everyone's going to take a gun and shoot someone, but they do. So it's just good to be aware, um, not to label or denigrate, but just to be aware of, of what's happening, of, of what could potentially happen so you can protect yourself. Speaker 2 (13:11): A lot of people with borderline personality disorder aren't high conflict people because they don't have targets of blame. And I've worked with many as a therapist in psychiatric hospitals, in outpatient clinics. It's the combination of this pattern with targets of blame where they become fixated on somebody that they have all or nothing thinking about. And if you are that somebody and you have bad news to deliver, that's, that's times of high risk, Speaker 1 (13:45): Right? Right. And they're just, they're, they're people who, uh, particularly with borderline are people in a lot of pain. And that that separation, that abandonment is so intensely powerful for them, um, that it feels very life or death, literally life or death for them. So that's why the extreme behaviors can happen. Um, so let's move along, uh, you know, bill, what kind of settings need to be concerned about times of high risk, uh, you know, like divorce, workplace, neighborhood? Speaker 2 (14:16): Well, the answer of course is all of the above Speaker 1 (14:19): Speaker 2 (14:19): Check since we started with a condo board association board. That's, that's the kind of place you don't think about something like this happening. This people think about this with high conflict divorces that end up with murder suicides in the news or workplace where people come back and they're angry because they were fired or people were, were negative towards them. Um, but it really can be anywhere. And, and that's the thing, I think part of why this is this segment is so important is that you may have a friend who suddenly you're on the outs with, we're not gonna say that you're gonna be shot and killed, but they're gonna do what they do when they're real upset. And maybe they'll, your friend will spread rumors on the internet because they wanna show how terrible you are. And that's one of the things that happens with high conflict people is they switch so that they may be wonderful and friendly. Speaker 2 (15:25): And now you say, you know, I I really want us to back off. I don't really have time for our friendship anymore. That, that's when you get the other side. And now they may hate you, especially if they've got those mood swings. And so it could be anybody anywhere, not that you're physically in danger necessarily, although sometimes you might be, if that's their pattern, but you just, you know, it could be socially endangered. They may hurt your reputation, they may, you know, in the workplace, take money, still break things. So it's, it's the idea that it goes with this high conflict personality pattern and that that's more predictable than the average personality. So just have your eyes open, especially during, you know, like holiday season. Everybody thinks this is the happiest times of the year. Well, this is also some of the, the most high risk times of the year, so pay attention. Speaker 1 (16:28): Hmm, absolutely. Uh, you know, this is brought to mind a, uh, divorce related situation that, uh, I unfortunately was, was sort of witness to, I dunno, 25 years ago or, or more working at the front desk of a hotel. The, the hotel had a restaurant associated with it. And one of the, the chefs in the kitchen was, um, this, this kind of dorky guy. And so he was just very sweet and he'd come and clock in and clock out by, you know, where my, where I worked. And so I kind of got to know him and he was just, he was just so dorky, but he was always joking around and, and super sweet. So, uh, one night he came into the hotel while he was, he wasn't on duty, but I was working. And, uh, he stopped by the, the front desk and asked for some change. Speaker 1 (17:16): So he, and he didn't, he wasn't his usual jokey self at all. It was, you know, very remarkably different from his norm. Um, but he wanted some, some coins, some change so he could go play video games in the, the hotel's video game area. So he went off and did that and then, you know, for about an hour, and then he came back by the front desk and just said bye, and walked out the door. So fast forward about 18 hours, I am now back at work on the following day, and the phone rang, I answered it, and it was a journalist who said, uh, you know, this is so-and-so from the, you know, newspaper, um, on the other side of the state, I don't know, 8, 6, 7, 8 hour drive away. And she said, uh, I would like to know if you, you know, if the hotel has a comment, uh, anything to say about the, the shooting, uh, what, what are you talking about? I don't know what what you're talking about. She said, yeah, this, this person shot his, his wife and, and three children and, and then killed himself, uh, last night. And it was this individual. Speaker 2 (18:19): Oh my Speaker 1 (18:20): Goodness. Uh, yeah, you can imagine how shocking that was, you know, to be kind of, I suppose that was the last person before he took off in his car and drove o across the state, and he is parked outside. She, so the, the, the story, the backstory was she had just left him, um, and he'd probably stewed for a few days over that. And, um, he drove across the state that night and waited till they're leaving for school. And, you know, that was, that was a hu Yeah, exactly what we're talking about here. Times of high risk. He was feeling that loss and he could not tolerate it. And so he took extreme, extreme action. And, you know, that marks your life forever. No, regarding, regardless of how much or how well you knew someone or not. Speaker 2 (19:02): Yeah. It's, it's the timing. And I think that's what's so important. And around those times when people say goodbye, you want to get divorced, something like that. I've had many consultation clients, I've said, do you need to get to a safe unknown place before that message is delivered, whether it's by you over the phone, by, you know, special delivery mail or by, by a lawyer, because this is a time of high risk. And in all these cases, things calm down within a few days. They may be able to meet in a mediation office or a lawyer's office. But it's, it's so important to think ahead. And one of the, the, the sad things about this is people think, now I'm done, now I'm free, I'm going to get divorced, and then I won't ever have to deal with this person again. Well, it's in many ways the opposite for them. That's the time that they are going to be most escalated and more people get abused or killed at the time of separation than at other times during a, a relationship. So the time of separation is probably the highest time of high risk. Speaker 1 (20:26): Mm-hmm. Yeah, Speaker 2 (20:28): That's a good example. Speaker 1 (20:30): Mm-hmm. And the, and, and that's that example I just shared, you know, the, the woman had had left, uh, and driven across the, you know, taken her children to her parents' house, and I bet she did feel safe, you know, and she just enrolled the kids in school the day before, and she probably was feeling like, wow, I, I, I have some relief here. And I imagine wasn't even thinking that, you know, he would've driven across the state and was sitting outside our door. So very, very tragic. And I, you know, for our listeners, I'm sorry to share such, you know, really troubling stories, but I, I think it just demonstrates what, what bill's talking about here. That these, that you have to be aware. You just have to be Speaker 2 (21:09): Aware. Let me add in here that most people aren't going to be shooting people, but that they're gonna do something else they've done before. So I wanted to mention another divorce example where there was a woman who I asked her a move away, and she was going to take their three year old boy and move to Washington from San Diego. And so she went to court and got her move away approved, but she was very deceptive person. She didn't actually move. She had a sister there, and she would meet my client in Washington once a month for his two day weekend with his three-year-old son. And so, you know, it was very inconvenient in the set. Anyway, he tells me, you know what, she hasn't moved. I see her driving around town. She's still in San Diego. She did not move. She did this to restrict my parenting. Speaker 2 (22:09): And so we went to court and because of various things we did, she did, we, the case was built for a change of custody that there was just no way she was gonna share the child. And the law says the parent who is most likely to share the child would be primary custodian anyway, so we had a court hearing where that change was very likely to be won. Well, guess who didn't show up? She again, disappeared and she actually disappeared for the next 15 years. And it wasn't till the boy was 18 that on the internet he found his father and they were reconciled. Then he eventually moved to be with his father, but she had a pattern of deception and disappearing and moving away. So she repeated that pattern, and if we had really thought it through and knew what I know now, we would've handled that transition differently. We would've had the child somewhere safe before that decision was made. Speaker 1 (23:16): Yeah. And, and it's always that if, if only we'd known like that night with, at, at the hotel, you know, if I'd have picked up maybe a little bit more on why his attitude that night was so different from his norm, you know, could I have said something to, I have no idea. But it, it, that's why we do these, these podcasts. That's why we do the work we do, is to help, um, everyone else learn what we've learned. And I mean, there are a lot of others in the world that, uh, understand this too. But, um, just to, you know, increase your awareness and, and protect yourself. Speaker 2 (23:46): Let me, let me add a little bit about divorce situation. So I have a list in the splitting book on page 44, and let me just read some of these examples that these are all times of high risk people don't even think of. So when you say you wanna separate, when you actually separate, when you make court requests that represent a loss to your partner, like parenting time when you serve papers on your partner requesting court orders, they're not gonna, like when you have a court hearing and get orders that the other parent's not gonna like, when they lose more time with the child than they expected when you, they have less contact with you than they expected when your legal case ends. And I know of terrible cases when the case ended, that's when it was the most dangerous time. When you start a new relationship, when you get married, when you have a child with someone else, when your former partner has a setback in their life, maybe they lose a job or they get a divorce after their divorce from you, they sometimes come back and want to have conflict with you. Speaker 2 (25:07): So all of these kinds of things, modifying parenting plans, uh, can be times of high risk. So you just have to think through what's gonna be likely and how you can be safe, how your child can be safe, and how to protect from someone taking off with a child, like the example I gave. Speaker 1 (25:29): And, and to not discount what your internal , uh, voice is, is saying, or you know, that you might have that, that gut fear. And we don't, you know, you don't want to overdo it, but you don't want to underdo it either. You need to pay attention and, and always tie back. If you, if you have a question about, oh, that, you know, they'd never do that, well go back to that fear. Is this person, do they fear abandonment? Do they fear being dominated? Do they fear of being, uh, feeling inferior? If if they do, it's really easy then to understand that, you know, that's where we get into the predictable parts is they could feel such a loss that they can't tolerate it. Uh, this thing that's coming up, this news i, that I have to give them, or, you know, now I've got this new partner, , uh, new romantic partner, and they're going to see us at the choir concert for the first time. You, you, you just tie it back to that fear and you protect yourself around those times. Speaker 2 (26:26): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (26:27): What about in Workplace Bill? Speaker 2 (26:29): Well, similar, maybe not as often, maybe not as intense, but this is a situation. And so let me give an example. Some this, it's one thing to be careful of is some people become two close friends. As someone new comes into the workplace and you kind of get along and you say, Hey, you know, why don't we have lunch together on the weekend? Or go to a movie or something and it seems like, hey, great, this is such a friendly person, they're so outgoing and all that. But then it starts like, like you were saying, Megan, you start having a gut feeling this is a little too intense, this is a little too fast just for a friendship. Um, and you may just, you know, be unromantic friends, but someone that you know, you kind of enjoy hanging out with. Cuz work is where we meet so many people. Speaker 2 (27:24): And so you start going, well hey, you know, I, I don't want to get together next weekend. Um, it's getting a little intense for me. I think we need to back off a little bit. First of all, I don't suggest you say it that way. I suggest that you've got other things in your life that are gonna be taking your time. Cuz that's a direct hit. You know that you're being too intense and let's back off. That triggers abandonment right there. If you're busy, you wanna back off gently. But let's suppose you, you do say things like I did and they get really upset and so they send an email to everybody in your work group. I found out that that so-and-so is really a jerk. And you know what they said and they might even spread rumors that aren't true, but they're trying to punish you for having backed off from them. Speaker 2 (28:16): So what's the solution here is take your time, getting to know people, building workplace friendships can be a great thing, but take your time so you get to know this person. Get a sense of how close do you want to get. Now I wanna mention, I think a success story around workplace is the post office, the postal service and transformative mediation. They instituted that years ago when there was some, uh, terrible examples of violence in the workplace. And this is really calm things and it's a way of having a mediation where people are having a conflict, they can talk in a structured setting with a mediator. And this, I think has preempted a lot of potential, uh, workplace, uh, danger, et cetera. But keep in mind, if you're a supervisor or, or the head of an organization that when you terminate people, you really need to use a lot of what we call ear statements. Speaker 2 (29:23): There's a lot of empathy, uh, attention, respect, letting people know that they've been appreciated. So it isn't an all or nothing thing and that it's policies that are making this happen. It's not personal. And, you know, this is is a hard time and I think, and there may be other experts that disagree, but I think it's helpful to have a connection that still lasts after that someone they can communicate with, like by email, you know, to get information for job planning, job search, uh, some companies, you know, really offer services around applying for your next job, all of that. I think that that way you avoid the abandonment feeling, the disrespect and inferiority like you were mentioning Megan. So I think just planning ahead and being realistic, not everybody is, is self-managed real well. There are people, maybe 10% of people are high conflict people who can get triggered by any relationship threat. And that that's certainly one when someone's terminated or they get bad news. Speaker 1 (30:42): So any last last thoughts on this before we wrap up, bill? Speaker 2 (30:46): I think we've covered it pretty well. I don't want people to walk away feeling really heavy and scared. It to me it's not to, to be scared, it's to educate people. Be realistic. Have your eyes open, be cautious. Get close to people slowly and back away from them slowly, um, at least with some precautions in place. And of course, you know, consult with therapists, lawyers, figure out a plan if you are going to give b bad news and get consultation on support so you're not alone. This is, these are problems that we're all facing these days. So pat yourself on the back and, and find things that make you feel good. The world does not have to be that frightening, the more educated you are about it. That's part of what we're trying to do. Speaker 1 (31:40): Ah, I love that. And I liked what you said, the get to know people slowly and back away slowly. Very, very important, um, to manage risk. Speaker 1 (31:55): Well, I hope that's been helpful to, uh, to all of you, our listeners and, and we're grateful as always that you, you know, take time to listen to us next week. We'll talk about confirmation bias in high conflict situations and how to avoid being fooled by high conflict people. So that'll be pretty fascinating. Um, send your questions to podcast high conflict institute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. You'll find the show notes and links there as well. And, uh, you know, we wish you a very happy New Year and, uh, you know, it's been a great year. It's our first year doing a podcast and it's been pretty successful. We're very happy about it and just so grateful to all of you for listening. And, uh, we hope you'll keep listening next year. Let us know your questions or give us feedback. We'd love to, to hear from you. So keep learning and practicing these skills. Be kind to yourself and, uh, we'll all try to find the missing piece together. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast at the Laos ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.