Latest / UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps / How a 20-Year Agency Is Surviving AI | Wes Towers

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How a 20-Year Agency Is Surviving AI | Wes Towers · UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps

• Wes Towers: trust is being eroded massively. you know, we don't trust what we read because we know it's probably AI written half the time, particularly on social media. the photographs we see that are not real photographs, videos are pretty compelling and exciting. They look real and it's fun but it's also terrifying because it can have such an impact Mickey Anderson: AI is changing the face of so many industries at a ridiculous pace. And today we're going to be talking about the impact of AI, how it's commoditizing marketplaces, what it's doing inside and outside of businesses, and how we can approach it with our own style, our own unique flavor, and staying true to our own company and our values as well. Today I am so grateful to have Wes Towers with me, founder of Uplift. 360, who's gonna share the insides of building a marketing agency specifically in websites and what he's building, what he's facing, and what he's predicting in the future. Welcome, Wes. Thank you for joining me. Wes Towers: My pleasure. It's fantastic to be on the show with you today. Mickey Anderson: I wanna kick it off Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: with the kind of the big headline today. We're seeing AI websites, vibe coding The tools are getting better and faster on the day-to-day, and businesses today are really challenged with do I do it myself? Do I hire someone else? Do I find a hybrid? And you're kind of facing this in your own unique way. as a website agency. And I'd Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: love to get a sense of where you stand in this crazy field of AI and what you're doing inside your business to really combat this AI commoditization. Wes Towers: Yeah, it's it's really amazing time to be alive. I mean, it's terrifying and exciting. It's kind of like a roller coaster ride and w we're all getting the exhilaration but all also the terror. And I suppose it depends on who you're listening to at the time. I mean, even last night I was speaking to another agency owner and they s they said that WordPress websites are dead. And that and I thought that was really interesting because that's not been my experience. So I think there's just the all these shifts and they're affecting different people at different times. And part of it might be around your mindset, part of it might be around your niche. There might be just so many different factors at play for any one agency. You know, they they're all nuanced and different and have different flavors and and skill sets and and all all all of that. And it more than one thing can be true at once. I think there's we're living in that time where the tech the tech is so exciting. But also the humanisation of brands is is rising to the top as well. So you've got these polar opposites that are pulling at the truth in is in the tension, I think. The tension between two truths is an exciting tightrope to walk and that's what I'm attempting to do right now. Mickey Anderson: we all are looking for this black or white answer. Yes to AI, no to AI. But I I I really like the idea of there being and of there being more possibilities and more options than just one. So when you're looking at your own business and the implications of AI and like the conversation you had with that other marketing agency owner, what are you really focused on right now in your business? As all of this new technology's coming out so rapidly. Wes Towers: Yeah, so it was very first when the rise of AI maybe four years ago, whenever it w became realized that every it was going to impact everybody and every business and certainly anyone sitting behind a computer screen, that'd be the first people to be impacted. And certainly designing websites and search engine optimization and all of those things were was obvious to that there was gonna be disruptions. So I really leaned upon my team for the very first time, which sounds so foolish, to have brilliant minds around me, but never really drawing upon their insights and so on for standard operating procedures. You know, everything because it started as a micro business, it started as me. And so everything was built around what I thought was the best. And so, you know, the business is over 20 years old. And so what I set up. as the foundations, whilst they were functional and working and everything was flourishing, it became obvious to me that no one person has all the answers because I simply can't keep on top of everything. I mean, today, we've got a a bunch of opportunities and and choices and and, you know, there's that that you know, decision def fatigue that everyone experiences because there's so many great options. How do you s choose the very best option? Well, for me it it meant that I had to lean upon my team. Well I I I felt the best opportunity was to lean upon my team because they're all geeking out on the same stuff as well. And so we re reworked our standard operating procedures quite significantly. Took a fair bit of work. But that work pays off in the long run, you know, there's so much time savings from a technical standpoint. But we'll we've also that's freed me up to do the things that I love, which is the human side, which is kind of the polar opposite of systemizing everything so greatly. So, you know, relying upon the team to bring new insights and ideas because things will shift and change, and even the service offering. So we've done search engine optimization. So for 20 years, you know, to rank websites as highly as we can for as many phrases as we possibly can in Google. But then all of a sudden AI shifts everything. Well not everything, but it it shifts the way in which we research topics. You know, if we're looking for a service or a product, we'll probably research it in different ways. Or at least even if we're still going to Google, we're going to search in different ways. So we're not going to just search service and location like Plumber Melbourne, for example. We work with a lot of trades and construction businesses. So they're the kinds of things typically people would historically search for. People still do that, but now we realize everyone kind of has a sense that AI understands context and language, and they'll so they'll search for sentences, answers. They're looking for answers to questions and conversing backward and forward. So it changes the dynamic and even the way in which we measure the success. We used to be able to measure. know the where you're ranked for a particular phrase and how many clicks you're getting. So the traffic and you could see you could show beautiful reports. Now all of a sudden the answers are on platform. You know, they're in Google, they're on Chat GPT, wherever else brands are being mentioned as well. So a massive shift for us and it's it's something we've got to navigate. So I've really focused in from my perspective within the business is to focus on the human element because it's one key ingredient that only I can bring as the founder. And we're a small business, a founder-led business. and let the technical people have more ability to speak into what we were doing, to adjust, to nav to readjust as as things change. So yeah, it's it's been a a shift in my leadership, I would say. Mickey Anderson: it opens up this monumental shift that many business owners go through, especially founder-led operators who start the business, they're the business, and as they grow, they have to make this transition into new leadership style. And I think there's this beautiful moment that you just talked about where you recognize that, you know what, I'm probably not the one with all the answers. And I think that's an underrated moment. That really showcases you've made a transition in your business and your leadership and your company now is beyond you. It's now the impact Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: and the people within it. Wes Towers: Yeah, that's right. And so I mean, I made horrendous mistakes in the in that field probably historically. I mean, there was one horror story that I can share with you that I had a lead developer. It was I don't know, maybe fifteen years ago, so fairly early on in the business, maybe five or so years in. So I had a small team with me and a lead developer and I could sense he was getting bored with the work we were doing. So but this opportunity came across my desk. I don't know how, but a for a massive project and I had n no understanding how to build it. It was quite technical. It was a dating website and it's nothing we and it needed all these sophisticated ways in which people could c connect. It was before the apps, there was no Tinder and stuff like that. People were jumping on websites and doing these things. And it was something so wasn't something I would ordinarily take on, but I thought it would help engage the my lead developer who is a brilliant mind. And so I ran it past him. He said, yeah, I definitely know how to do it. I said, brilliant, can you do the proposal? Because I've got no idea. We did that. I presented it. We won. And he quit the job in a couple of weeks into the project, which was intended to take months. And all of a sudden I had this massive task of fulfilling what of what I felt was a promise because it's a proposal. And I want to deliver on the promises we make. So we got it done. I mean, it t but it took a lot of late nights and early mornings. And you know, it was a lesson learned the hard way, you know, to take on projects for all the wrong reasons. And I realized only recently, if I had have probably opened up the platform for him to to have more direction in the business and and more saying how we did things, he was probably going to be more engaged in that way. I just choose the I just chose the wrong tool to keep him engaged and it didn't work and it and it was a costly mistake. Mickey Anderson: I've seen it in so many different ways. I've done it as well where it's very similar to relationships. at least for me it was. So I think of the example of like you don't fix a a broken relationship with a proposal, right? Or a puppy or something like that. And oftentimes in business we do that. We'd have this kind of transactional, I'm gonna give you this gift to try and mend the relationship. But usually it backfires. And I I've done it too. It's a It's a hard lesson to learn, but also a really important one that I think everyone needs to learn, hopefully not the hard way like we did. that it it, you know, really engaging your team, getting them more involved, helping them and guide them, be the true leader to them, I think is really important. And it's it's also a big challenge for sure. Wes Towers: And it's it's just the nature of business right now. we've got these speed wobbles, it feels like, in some ways, because we're all trying to accelerate our growth using, you know, new technology and there's new opportunities coming up all the time. So that way in which we make decisions, we need to have the flexibility to make a decision. And maybe it will change in a few years, but we need to make the best decision because no decision is a decision in itself and it's just stay stagnant and it potentially w might wipe out a business like ours. So staying nimble is really important, but also not scrambling for every every shiny object that comes along. And so there's a great philosophy in Taoism which really spoke to me about the muddy waters. So the more busy work and the more churning you you you do, you stir up the water to create the muddy waters. But sometimes it just takes some time to let the the mud settle and to the clarity to emerge. And that's that was certainly a a helpful analogy for me as someone who can tend to be quite driven and and, you know, trying to take things by force almost, it feels like For me, it ne I need that balance in my life to sometimes let things settle and figure out what what the clarity when the clarity emerges, which it will. but other people are different. I mean, so other people are just wired with that clarity in in you know, in their DNA. And so they need a little bit of more of a nudge. So everyone's different in that. Mickey Anderson: I can still relate to that as well. we have a rule really at Loyalty Ops, which is the 24 hour rule. if there's a big decision, if there's a big monumental win or a loss, take the 24 hours to process it, to celebrate, or to cry, or do whatever you gotta do, but get it out of your system. That way you can come back fresh the next day with things kind of let them calm and actually come in with clarity. with speed today being such a focus for so many, that white space, that ability Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: to let things sit for a moment to get clarity instead of being reactive is a really hard thing to do. So when the waters are muddy and you've got all this pressure and all of these expectations in the team, do you have a process? Do you have something that you do personally that helps you kind of sit back and find that clarity. Wes Towers: Yeah, well a few years back I had I was in a bit of a bad state, I suppose you would say, and and so I saw a psychologist who was really helpful in in for me to find some ways to regulate. You know, because as I as I said, I can be quite driven and so, you know, you can push the boundaries and it becomes ineffective eventually. And so business was flourishing at the time, but it was just that I I realized if I kept going on the path, it probably wouldn't be sustainable for for the long term. So she was brilliant. She encouraged me to do a whole bunch of things to regulate myself, you know, breath work. I started doing cold plungers, sauna, all these things, but also going to the gym, just practical things to help. me physically and it was surprising how much impact, beneficial impact it had on the business as well. So as a founder led business, the way you show up has such an impact on every every other aspect of success in, you know, so I wish I've ha I had a focused on these things a little more. I mean a as a younger man I could get away with, you know, late nights and and not eating well and all these things that you can sort of get away with for a for a time, for a season, but eventually it catches up to you and it certainly was catching up to me. You know, my health had deteriorated and I'd become overweight and a whole bunch of things. So got all that back on track. So for me, I mean, yeah, getting myself personally right made a better business as well. Mickey Anderson: the way that I see it as well, just like with a parent and a child, the parent regulates to help co-regulate the child. And I personally have the perspective of it's the same with business. As the owner, founder, CEO, leader, your regulation, your emotional state, your physical state absolutely directly impacts the ability of everyone else to regulate. And you're kind of the guiding force. I love it because It's actionable, it's simple, and often desperately needed in these crazy times where so many people are reactive and burnt out and trying to get on the next thing and do the next and it's just fires and AI and chaos. But being able to focus on what can I control, what can I do personally to regulate and bring myself down, knowing and trusting that that's gonna improve everyone else around you and the organization, I think is key. Wes Towers: As as that's just the nature of entrepreneurial people, you know, we're we're excited by the the challenges that some people would be freaked out by, but also, you know, you've got to find ways to to calm down at the end of the day. You can't stay wired all day and night. Mickey Anderson: Now I wanna come back to something that you mentioned a little bit earlier, which was your focus on kind of trades and construction and how that that kind of outside of the box project landed on your desk looking like a big opportunity, but ultimately didn't end up being a good decision. And I I know that niching is one of those topics that a lot of people love, a lot of people hate and struggle with. And so I I would love to know a little bit more about your journey into niching, your perspective on focusing and targeting on a specific market, whatever your niche might be, and how that Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: looks now compared to maybe what it did when you first niched. Wes Towers: because we kind of un I understand it from a marketing standpoint because that's the world we we live in, but it was still a massive and difficult decision to make because it feels as though you're cutting off so many opportunities. But the reality is the majority of your better clients are probably or customers probably are kind of similar, or at least there's there'll be attributes that aspects of what they do or how they are. that is similar. And so once you can define your ideal client, your ideal customer, everything becomes easier. Your marketing message becomes easier because you po you you're speaking to one specific type of person. and so I knew that from a from a you know marketing standpoint, but to do it myself was difficult. But the the niche found me in a whole lot of ways. So It really was that the majority of our better clients were all kind of in the same same industries. Trades, construct construction and industrial brands. So yeah, just dialed into that a bit more. It's kind of funny because most people when they see that I'm niched in as an agency, they assume that I had some sort of construction background, which is completely not true at all. I'm useless at picking up a hammer or I don't I don't know what end of the screwdriver to hold. But for whatever reason that and there's probably a few that I relate really well to those types of people. They're kind of a certain type of personality and they're you know, they're practical, down to earth, hands-on, you know, people, like getting stuff done. That's kind of how I'm wired too, but I just have a different skill set to them and that's a perfect, perfect match. Mickey Anderson: eating our own dog food is one of the hardest things as a business owner, regardless of what industry you are, right? There's advice that you give to people, but when you have to take it yourself, there's this like almost constricting feeling of like I don't want to do what I've been told, even though I'm the one telling myself and everyone else to do. it's so funny. Wes Towers: Yeah, I know. We're so s so close to our own stuff and that's why having insight from experts in various fields to speak into your your life or your business so important because you're just so close and you might know all the answers. I mean, you know, you might have read all the books and but it's hard to do yourself without the guidance of an ex external perspective sometimes in a in a lot of things. Mickey Anderson: the more outside experience you can learn from, the better. And that's really the I mean, that's what this show is about. And on the the niche topic too, I'm curious because obviously the market's changing and trust is a little bit harder to earn these days with the Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: quantity of options and messages and You know, there's there's just so much going on. Do you think or your experience with niching, do you believe that has led to being more trusted or earning trust faster in your business? Wes Towers: Yeah, certainly. over the course of time you become known as the go-to person for and certainly it's been my experience, the go-to person for the the types of clients we serve. And what it's meant is previously before niching, I would attract mostly local bus businesses because they're part of, you know, you you bump into them at the local chamber and those sorts of things and and that still happens, but these days as well, you know, I I'll have international people re reaching out because they're looking for a very specific outcome and they they want one to find who they perceive to be the best for the for the job that they have at hand. So all of a sudden you're working with people a across the planet, which is cool. Or even, you know, around Australia as well. So not just local businesses. So I think there's only a couple of ways of going about an agency. You can either be the local guy around the corner who h helps the other local businesses. And that's perfectly fine. I suppose maybe the majority do it that way. Certainly in Australia the majority do it that way. but there's those that that target in a different way. So they're not thinking about just the local market. They're thinking about how they can serve people all around the world. Mickey Anderson: this ties to that relationship point you mentioned as you're growing your business, as you've freed up your capacity and time to build relationships and become more of the face of the brand. I wonder, you know, what your focus is when it comes to that, what you believe it's gonna do for your business or what you're seeing inside of your business as you've put yourself out there now and basically become the relationship person Wes Towers: Well I think just even being on podcasts like this, it's I mean, any collaborative process is powerful for marketing because it builds trust and it's leveraging s the the respect someone has in their in their own field. So all of a sudden you're a respected person who's with your audience. So all of a sudden you're speaking to me and so you're leveraging that trust, but you're also amplifying your reach because all of a sudden it's two people like I'll share the show. with my world as well. So you you're amplifying everything. But the other thing too, which is really I think important right now with the rise of AI and the way in which it large language models are pulling information far and wide from all sorts of sources. So previously we could optimize just around the website and do a lot of powerful things there to get your website ranking. But now Because large language models can glean the information from far and wide, it's really powerful and I think important to create a a large footprint. And so to do that, it's it's easier and better if you've got a clear and distinct message that some people will want to have shared. And, you know, some people won't. So pa people will find the information that is right for them at the right time and the tools will help them do that, and they'll only get better to do that. So for me. it's it's about creating a a big footprint so people can find, you know, I I was at the pub with a a mate the other the other week and we we both were a AI searching ourselves to see what would you know, what would come up, see who was the most famous. He he'd he'd he'd had quite a a a successful business and and was quite regarded and well known. so we were asking, hey, who's more famous me or him now, you know. So it's kind of fun. But it it really is interesting to see how it's putting together its thoughts and ideas about who we are. And so to leverage a personal brand into a company brand, I think is one of the quickest shortcuts to to create impact. Mickey Anderson: with so much content with so many options out there, being able to put a face and a name, right? I I think it comes back to and th my prediction, and this is just my hot take, is that in this kind of age of AI, we're gonna have a swing back to nostalgia and to a lot of the things that we used before and kind of forgot. So, you know, relationship Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: building, going out to dinners, meeting people in real life, referrals. True personal connections, face-to-face, voice, video, Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: I think are gonna be a massive part of what make people successful in the future because there's just so much junk out there. And so how do you tell what's true, what's not, what's real, what's not? Well, if a person that I trust is connected to this person, if I've met this person, if I've seen them and heard them speak, I think it's gonna shortcut a lot of things for many business owners. So as Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: you're looking towards the future for your business as well. with AI and personal branding, do you see the relationship building being the most important part, the footprint being the most important? Wes Towers: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm focused on is the human connections and the relationships, building trust and authenticity because it it just feels like trust is being eroded massively. you know, we don't trust what we read because we know it's probably AI written half the time, particularly on social media. and even the comments, you know, the bots and so on, you you know, you don't know what's real. You the photographs we see that are not real photographs, the videos. videos are pretty compelling and exciting. They look real and but it might be someone along past so we know it's not real but it it's it's fun but it's also terrifying ter terrifying because it can have such an impact on lots of things like we've seen videos of political people saying things we they never really said so that can have a massive sway and massive you know political outcomes so there's that l lack of trust and erosion of trust and so from a marketing standpoint I think the goal is to build trust and and the easiest ways to do that is to humanize your brand. So there's an actual person that that people can start to know, like, and trust. There's always been that concept of marketing creates, you know, the a an opportunity for someone to know, like, and trust you. And so we're always going to relate better to a human. and so showing up and and being visible and having a sh a message worthwhile sharing. is going to be powerful play. So that's what I'm really focused in on. The team are making sure we're staying technically relevant as well. So they they can focus on that. The the standard operating procedures have been streamlined to free me up. And so yeah, even though things will likely change and evolve and our service offerings potentially might evolve as well, I'll be setting myself up as a thought leader. That's the goal. Mickey Anderson: I know a lot of people struggle with putting themselves out there, with being the face of the brand. there's the ego side of it where, you know, I don't want people to think I'm egotistical. I don't want people, you know, but there's also the privacy side of I don't necessarily want to be out there on the front. But to your point, I do think there's a need. Did you ever struggle with being the face and putting yourself out there in your business? Wes Towers: yeah. A a lot. So I always you know, a and even listening back to the first couple of guest podcasts, horrendous. I can be I Mickey Anderson: Don't do that. Don't do that. Wes Towers: could barely listen. Yeah, I know. It's but you've gotta be brave enough to be to look foolish. And a anything that you start you you won't feel like well equipped. You n you never and and you could put things off until you're more equipped, but you never become more equipped until you get started. You know, you've got to start small. And it you know, it's like a just a small seed that you want to plant and and see it grow and flourish. And you need to nurture it early on because it's vulnerable and and so on. So you you you need to nurture these things into into existence really. But yeah, we work with a lot of you know companies who don't really want to be on podcasts, let's say, or they they don't want to leverage their personal brands, but there's other ways to build trust in the the company. And and you know, I'm always having conversations with our clients. What are you building? So because they're typically creating something that's tangible. so what are you building and how do we leverage that into the next wave of marketing? Because they can write case studies and stories, examples, get testimonials, all these things that are proof that they actually do the thing that they say they do and it's things that that only they can speak on because we're seeing all this AI slop. People just jump on a tool and create content and they think that's going to be helpful for their marketing, but it's all generic and bland. But as soon as you're talking about the actual projects you're working on, that's genuinely something that only they can share and it will help you stand out in the marketplace. Mickey Anderson: When it comes to being a beginner in something, it's always hard, especially high performers and business owners, because they pride themselves on being exceptional and, you know, Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: showcasing this level of excellence. But I also think there's a there's pros to it. A, the reps, like you mentioned, you have to practice in order to get better. And the only way to do that is put yourself out there. But the other side is to your human point in this age of AI. Imperfect. often builds trust faster than perfect nowadays. And so I do think there's a value of showing up, even if it's not the best, that actually could Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: work in your favor. Wes Towers: Well the way I've always liked to think about it is if if my message is stronger than the messenger, so I I I'll be flawed in my delivery, but if the message is strong enough, then it's worthwhile sharing. I mean, that was something I kind of leaned in on a number of years ago I I had the opportunity to speak. to a the speaking association here in Australia. So speaking to speakers, and I was not a professional speaker by any means, but they wanted the knowledge in which I could share around around search engine optimization at the time. So You know, that was a an experience to realise, hey, this is information they want. The message is stronger than the messenger being me. And my delivery won't be as polished as what they would do. But you know, that's that's an unexpected you know, that's a a a bar too h high to to jump for me at that time. But that's the way I thought about it. It was kind of funny that at the end of that session, the the workshop that I ran, they said, would you like to be a a a part of the what we're doing here. Would you like to join? So well I'm not a speaker. And they said, What are you talking about? You just spoke to the whole room. So it's kind of funny the limitations we put on ourselves sometimes that maybe other people aren't putting those limitations on us. Mickey Anderson: I often will say, you know, you're not holding the spotlight on yourself. You're shining the spotlight on the message. You're just there basically to hold it. And that can sometimes get around it. But I love the idea of honing in on the message. And as long as it's coming across, that's the most important part. Yeah. Wes Towers: Hmm. Yeah, it's like anything. Mickey Anderson: That's huge. Huge. Wes Towers: The the more value you w in business and in no matter what field you're in, if you can find a great need and produce great value to serve to s for that need, then income always follows. So just finding value in the message, what are you gonna what can you give to people that they're going to find valuable? and then business flourishes as a co as a consequence of that. So No, it's that'll always be true. The more value you produce in the world, the more income you'll create as well. And not that income's the only thing that we're chasing, but it's a it's a crude proxy for success, certainly. Mickey Anderson: Now I want to rewind a second because you've been in business for 20 years now and you started off basically as yourself. You know, you are the service. You are the thing. It's me. This is my business. All Wes Towers: Hmm. Yeah. Mickey Anderson: the way to today, 20 years later with a team, and now you're stepping out of the day-to-day. And I want to take a look at maybe a little bit of your journey and the process you went through and how you grew, as well as maybe a few takeaways, wins or losses that have really helped you get to where you are now. if you can rewind us back and give us a little bit on that. Wes Towers: Yeah, I mean the f the first time I hired someone, that's another horror story. you know, and Mickey Anderson: Okay. Wes Towers: you you don't you don't know really what you're doing. I I got no guidance I had no guidance around that. And it's certainly I'd le I've learned that mentoring and and getting experts to help with things that you have no experience in would be helpful, you know, hiring people. So the s the first person I hired didn't work out very well at all and that I have to take ownership of of getting that wrong. the we we were having our a our second child and I was going to take some time off you know a couple of weeks off just to spend time with my son and so and and wife. So the At that time she chose to start her own company and take a whole s chose to want to take a a bunch of our clients. And so I had no safeguards in place around that, you know, and you know, being a I just trusted that she would look after me. She was actually a friend before she was someone I hired. So And I hired her because of that. I thought, well, she'll have my best interest at heart. I'm a bit naive. I don't really know what I'm doing with hiring people and all that stuff. So I thought, if I hire a friend, then that'll take care of that that concern. But it it didn't. So that was a lesson learned the hard way. yeah, so I built out the team. Then I built a team in the Philippines, which is really, really great. Spent a bit of time there getting that right, getting a leader there. who could then do the the hiring and and so on. That was her her expertise. She was brilliant at picking the right people. She just had an intuition, but also a the intuition probably came from years of knowledge and experience doing the things and and having process. So she had a great way of di building out that team, which was really great. and so that was one more thing off my plate that she could focus on doing that. And more recently we took on an a secondary team in the in India as well. So and that's a different model because it's not only that's not a my my own team, it's a it's an outsourced team. So I've got my own team, team, you know, that worked just for me. And then I've got the Indians the Indian team and and so the part of the rationale behind that was the the concept of I don't have all the answers and certainly I I also realized a small team potentially might not all the a have all the answers but of what's changing and evolving. But I felt like someone who's working with a number of other agencies kind of like ours, different niches and different markets and all that kind of stuff, but they're probably seeing other things that could speak into how we we do stuff as well. So I just thought it was another shortcut way. of leaning upon expertise and knowledge of other people. So it's been brilliant, you know, because they're seeing things in other agencies that that we can sort of not that we're stealing anyone's IP, but it's, you know, they've got a a set of knowledge that they can help us with. Mickey Anderson: there's so much value now in this interconnected world, in this digital world where we can leverage people from different countries with different experiences. There's just so much talent out there. And I'm curious for you now in your business with two teams in different countries, you know, Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: how are you managing expectations? How are you keeping things moving in the direction that you want? What are some of the things you're Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: focused on to make sure that Both of those very different structured teams are effective and contributing in the way you need them to in the business. Wes Towers: Yeah, well they've got to follow your process for sure, you know, and that's that's often the danger of bringing anyone into your team because they'll have if they've been in their field for a while, they've got their own ways of doing things. And it's always been the challenge to to make sure everyone's following the same process because you know, people might be away sick or things happen and they they don't show up to work and who's going to pick up the project on that day where something needs to get done. So I'm really diligent at following procedure and process. So e the outcomes are always the same. You know, the sa the designs and so on of a website, they always look different and there's different you know, things that need to be built into the sites, but the the way in which we go about it and the way we follow process and and document and so everyone's on the same software, their project management. everyone's following the same process. And so that was pa that was the key criteria for picking who who comes on board. whether they be my dedicated team or or whether they be an outsourced team, they've got to follow our process. And that was that was a a difficult thing to find actually. So there was people who would say that that's what they would do. But as I dug a dug a bit deeper, they really wanted to follow their own ways of doing things, which wasn't w was a no go for me. Mickey Anderson: in a website, right, there's the technical where you have builders, coders, you know, all those components, especially on the SEO side as well. But then there's also the creative side where you need new fresh ideas, you need creativity, you need, you know, look, style, taste is all very subjective. And so for you when you're looking at process and procedure and kind of balancing, we've got these technical things that need to be done a very specific way. But then there's the creative side. How do you manage that Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: or balance that? Wes Towers: yeah, that's another key thing. So the the creative you've got to assign that to the right people because there is that that flair that you can't it's kind of you've gotta have an eye for it. Yeah. You gotta have that magic, haven't you? and so yeah, you've got to you've gotta assign the right peop things to the right people. For sure from the creative aspect, but from the technical aspect, there's just so many software options. No, even just might have been early this week, might have been Monday, there was a project that had a really complex set of criteria. And I in my limited knowledge thought it needed to be custom created from the ground up because I didn't I didn't know of any software that would do precisely what they needed to. But but because I had the Indian team, I ran it past them and they said, no, there's a there's this one piece of software that does everything you've described, and we can customize the the little bit to to make sure it's aligned precisely to the client. So all of a sudden I was thinking it was going to be like a $30,000 project because it would all need to be customized. But then I could present a solution to the to the client. was probably gonna be, you know, a couple of thousand dollars. So it's a massive, massive saving. If I didn't have that external input, I would have led them down the wrong wrong path. And they would probably would have paid that money because there's certainly the value in it for them. but you know, it's a a a massive saving. They're going to be appreciative of that for sure. Mickey Anderson: like you said, finding the right people and it's gonna be different based off of your business, obviously what you do, who you serve, but also your culture, your values, and then being able to leverage the collective knowledge, right, to support growth. I wonder too, when it comes to because you know, you mentioned everyone follows the same process, are you of the camp where consistency will outpace or beat innovation or newness or is there a balance between the two? Wes Towers: it's it's an interesting space, isn't it? With the you know, thinking through the vibe coding sort of people are are dabbling with that and it's it's nowhere near perfect just yet. There was yeah, the creating a consistent output. We had we had a client who who wanted to make an a chatbot solution to that they do research and so on and that and people buy the research. but it's just been delivered as PDF and and sometimes they would pay for a presentation from the director to to so they could explain it in their context. But he wanted the chatbot to to be another solution. And so I I was just not comfortable that we could deliver it to the standard in h in which he wanted it. Because I just concerned that the vibe coating techniques that he was he was looking to introduce were going to work to the polish and perfection that I know he wants, and so do we. so I just I just said, no, that's not something uncomfortable that we can deliver on. And and so he got it done elsewhere and it wasn't, it wasn't perfect at all. So it's something he had to he he was thinking he would sell that as a a serv an add-on service offering or product. productized our version of what he was doing, but he couldn't. He just had to give it away and it was an expense. And but I don't think it was a bad outcome for him. But it was certainly some of these things that people say they can do aren't aren't producing consistent outputs just yet. And so for us, I need to protect the integrity of our brand and make sure if we say we can do something that it can be done. Because we don't want the We don't want some rogue chat bot tell telling people the wrong things. And so the people are making decisions and you know it's it's a frightening, you know, there's there's terrifying things happening in AI and we've just gotta be really careful of that. Mickey Anderson: It doesn't it it kind of it comes into this next piece which is like what you're avoiding as a business. There are a lot of shiny objects out there, especially in marketing, right? This is Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: it's a wild time. People, there's so much technology, so many options, so many new things coming out every minute of every day. And I think there's there's a lot of things that agency owners in particular are looking for. I need to stand out, I need to keep up, I need to pace up with AI and you know. meet the expectations of my clients, but there's also distractions that are taking away from that consistency you talked about. And so I'm curious for you, what is the thing that you think is a shiny object that you're not chasing, you're actively avoiding because you believe it's not gonna pay off in the end, or at least not now. Wes Towers: Yeah, well there's there's lots of things that I'm avoiding. And so for optimizing websites to to get traffic, either whether that be through Google or or visibility, whether it be through a large language model, there's so many automated tools that it's just a a new level of spam really. and my concern with that is i if everyone starts using these same tools and creating spam. How on earth do we sta stand out? and so we've got to we've got to resist that temptation of taking easy wins because they probably work for the short term, but they will certainly not work for the long term, because this is the this is the game that's been going on for decades now. People find ways historically to to cheat their way to the top in Google, and they work for a time. And so what happens typically? is for some of the agencies that are that are not that ethical is they'll have a sales team and they'll over promise and then all of a sudden the people d trying to deliver on upon the promises of, you know, ranking you h highly on all your phrases and and so on, all your keywords. So the delivery team need to find a way to get that done. So there's the temptation to to do things that are less than ethical. But eventually Google would find out, hey, everyone's cheating. in this way and that would penalize websites. So, you know, clients would be left in the lurch. And that's why search engine optimization as one thing has has got a a bad rap and bad name because all of these temptations t yeah, Mickey Anderson: Black hat. Yeah. Wes Towers: black hat. Yeah, and it's it's horrific. But it's obvious to me that that will become that will become something that's really gonna smash businesses. Those that have blindly outsource some of this stuff, taking some shortcuts naively because they've just delegated it to someone, you know, it's going to come back and penalize them eventually. so, you know, resisting the temptation for short term wins that'll pot will likely come back to bite the the customer and the client. That's that's bad news. It's it's going to d tarnish brands and reputation. So we really want to build authenticity, authority, trust. So really geared in around trust. And so whilst it might take us a little bit longer and our clients a little bit longer, the results should last the test of time. Mickey Anderson: it comes back to, making decisions aligned with your values as an organization and and who Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: you are as an organization and and the promise you you make to clients, I think is is huge in those moments of temptations, being able to sit back and really reflect on, okay, why are we here in the first place? What are we really trying to accomplish? And is it is it really worth the risk? And oftentimes it just isn't, right? There's a Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: it might take you longer, but personally, and I think a lot of the listeners can relate, I would much rather slower sustainable growth that lasts than a blip in the market Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: and then drop. Wes Towers: sometimes we make ourselves vulnerable to one way in which we get leads through as well. And so there was a big company here in Australia, a buyer's agent at C that they help you buy property, investment properties, and they were massive and really successful and and probably the leader in their their field. But it's it seems to me by reading the director's message when they they had to close, they got shut down, no longer viable. his messaging said that all their leads were coming through their Facebook ads and Facebook changed the changed the way in which they were doing things and so all of a sudden they weren't getting the same return on investment and there were other factors at play in their marketplace, what's going on with legislation and so on. So But they only had the one way in which they were growing. And so well, they were incredibly successful whilst it was working. But then once it stopped working, they had no other met methods to to figure out how to how to sustain the growth. So that's a massive risk in any any business when you when you build around only one strategy, and when it's through a tool that you don't control, you know, it there's just massive risk in that. So just try and encourage customers and clients to have more than one way to to grow. Mickey Anderson: it's a apropos message to the listeners, right? So owner to owner, business owners, founders who are, today making decisions in their business, looking at all the opportunities. Obviously, we want to get revenue, we wanna grow, but there's a point at which we lock ourselves in so tight that there's no way to adapt. And so I think really adaptability. Having safeguards and options is key. but at Wes Towers: Mm. Mickey Anderson: the same time, they should all be focused on where you wanna go and aligned with your values as well. Wes Towers: Yeah, hundred percent. Mickey Anderson: So for the listeners who are all, you know, looking to build businesses that actually last through this, this chaotic, crazy Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: decade where everything's changing under our feet every single day, do you have any takeaways or messages or beliefs that you think will help the listeners as we're all trying to weary our way through these muddy waters, as you would say? Wes Towers: the message that you share oftentimes is is really important To really have the clarity of precisely what you want to be known for and and who you want to be as a business. What are your values, your convictions, anything that's distinctly yours. and it it might be polarizing. If it's polarizing, it's probably It's probably a great marketing strategy. If you're doing something or or believe something that's different to all your competitors, that's the one thing you've got to lean in and dial in to. And it will repel potentially the the wrong customers and that's perfectly fine. It but it'll it will attract the right ones and that's really what you've got to find. Those little pieces, it might only be one percent that makes you distinctly different in the marketplace, but that's the one thing that you need to market to. that really drive success forward. Mickey Anderson: I come from a like an abundance mindset of there's there's enough for all of us, right? There's options out there and being uniquely you as a business and as a business owner is a competitive advantage. So how can you leverage that, communicate that, put that out there in a way that's different, that's sticky, and that's gonna build trust as well, I think is key. Wes Towers: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: Wes, this has been so much fun. So for the listeners who are interested in learning more about you, about Uplift 360, where would you like them to come and find you online? Wes Towers: Yeah, uplift360.com.au. You'll find all the socials there as well. But from the website, you can book a strategy call with me as well. So obviously, as we mentioned, we focus mostly on trades, construction, industrial brands. But I'm happy if there's something that resonated in this conversation, happy to have a a conversation with any of the listeners today. Mickey Anderson: Amazing. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. And I know the listeners enjoyed this episode as well. and if you are listening or watching, please be sure to like and subscribe and share with another business owner who is building something they want to last in this crazy decade. Thank you so much.