Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Why Flourishing Should Be The Goal Over Happiness, And How To Get There, With Dr Tim Sharp

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Why Flourishing Should Be The Goal Over Happiness, And How To Get There, With Dr Tim Sharp · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Dr Tim Sharp, Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: I should say the Australian version of Professor Richard Laird,
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: which you will know, is a compliment, and many of
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: our listeners will not know that right.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Maybe a compliment, maybe be dounrealistic. I'm not sure if
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm quite at that level, but thanks anyway.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: So, look, you have a very long history in psychology
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: and then have focused more and more on happiness. You've
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: done TV shows only, You've got the Happiness Institute, You've
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: been all over the media on it. Tell it gives
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: you our listeners a little bit of sense of your
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: background just in terms of general psychology. And then why
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: did you choose to focus on happiness as a psychologist.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Sure, well, I'll give I was trying to give it
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: a shorter version, and then if you helped me to
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: elaborate on anhing, feel free to ask away. But my
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: background started out in what most people would consider a
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: fairly traditional psychology path. So I started studying what what's
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: known is clinical well, I did an initial psychology degree,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: then clinical psychology, which is what most people think of.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: So that's therapy essentially learning how to understand and treat
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: diagnosable disorders like depression and anxiety, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: But fairly soon on I realized I wanted to be
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: an academic, so on top of my clinical masters to
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: go to a PhD. And was sailing along very nicely
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: in what at the time was my dream job. I
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: was what's known as a clinical academic, so I was
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: both a therapist working as a therapist treating people with
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: arrange of conditions, but I was also lecturing and doing research,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: and at the time that really was my dream. I
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: was working with a fantastic team in a highly regarded clinic,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: academic clinic. And then I guess I surprised everyone, including myself,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: when I left all of that for a variety of
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: both personal and professional reasons, and I went into private practice,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: which is not something I'd ever considered at the time,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: and I didn't really think it would be a long
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: term option. But it turned out I had a bit
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: of an entrepreneurial gene I didn't realize I had at
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: the time, and that practice grew into a sizeable business,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: and before I knew it, I was not just a
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: clinical academic, but I guess a businessman, and that wasn't
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: really what I ever intended to be. I mean, I
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: set out to help people, and I was doing that
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: in a way. But I distinctly remember coming home one
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: day and my wife was said, you know, you're not
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: doing what you enjoy anymore. Because I was spending all
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: my time running the business and had forty or fifty
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: staff and multiple officers. I was talking to lawyers and accountants,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: and although I mean, I don't regret it at all,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: it was incredibly successful and incredibly satisfying him. Anyways, I
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: did take a step back at that point and say, oh,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: what am I actually doing here? And it was around
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: that time, very close to that time, that the very early,
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: very very early sort of seedley or sprouts of what's
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: known as positive psychology started to pop up. Many people
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: would know Martin Selgman, and he was just starting to
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: write some of his early stuff then. So as I
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: was reviewing my professional life and my business life, I
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: suppose I started to see these signs of positive psychology,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: which I just it was immediate you it was love
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: at first sight, I suppose, because that's what I always
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: wanted to do. I mean, I went into psychology thinking
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I wanted to make people happy, but what I was
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: really doing was making them less unhappy, which is exactly
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: the same thing. So anyway, at that time, no one
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: in Australia was really had really picked up on positive psychology,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: which is a bit of a surprise. And so that's
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: when I established the Happiness Institute in a way, I
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: guess starting to wanted to draw attention to this new
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: field that I was really excited about. And that's when
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I started to focus more on positive psychology and happiness
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: and started to talk more and help people more work
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: towards thriving and flourishing as opposed to just overcoming stress
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: and depression. And I guess again this is the short version.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: They made lots of other sideways along the way, but
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: that's been the main focus of my life, or my
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: professional life, my career, you know, for the last or
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: two decades or so.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Now, okay, cool, and I'm going to start then with
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: a pretty slippery question. So let's define happiness, right, and
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: you know, give some different options, and what is the
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: difference between what the average person on the street would
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: think of as happiness and some of the stuff that
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: you talked about, like flourishing, subjective well being. You know,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: the Stoic philosophers and the into Greeks talked about you
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: de Munia. So give us a bit of a sense
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: of what happiness means to just normal lay people, and
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: then a more academic version of it.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: It's a great question because I think if you were
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: to ask that of most people, you say, you know,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: what is happenings? Most people would think it's a fairly
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: simple question, and yeah, I guess it Isn't it isn't
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: It is in a way. But then again, as you
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: quite rightly pointed out, if you ask academics, there's a
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of related but slightly different constructs that are
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: often confused. Again, so those happiness, there's well being as well.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: And as there's unimonia, there's thriving, there's flourishing, et cetera,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: et cetera, in a quality of life, life satisfaction, all
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: of which are similar in many many ways, but also different.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: So let me go back to the beginning of your question.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: If you ask the average person on the street, you know,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: what does happiness mean? They'll probably answer, more often than not,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: they answer that by thinking about how they're feeling at
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: that point in time. Which is a perfectly valid answer.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: So happiness that probably the simplest way to think about
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: happiness is one form of positive emotion. Now, what we
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: know is there's a whole range of positive emotions. Happiness
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: is just one, but there's also joy and love and
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: gratitude and satisfaction and calm and contentment, et cetera, et cetera. Again,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: all of which are related but slightly different. So I
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: guess that's the simplest way to think about it, that
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: happiness is one form of positive emotion. But what we
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: know about emotions, not just positive ones, but negative ones too,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: things like stress and anxiety and depression, is that by definition,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: they're kind of fleeting. They come and go, they don't
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: really last that long, and I'm talking about minutes maybe
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: hours at the most of these sorts of things that
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: they know, they're always fluctuating. So in some ways that's
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: not really what positive psychologists are interested Well, it is.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: It is a very interesting and very important construct. But
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: if you talk to positive psychologists or people that study
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: the science of well being, what they're more interested in,
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: and this is part of it, is again what we
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: call thriving and flourishing or what as you refer to
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: might refer to as you'd ammonia, and that's a deeper
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: sense of life satisfaction, something that's I guess, longer lasting
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: and more meaningful in a way, something that doesn't vary
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: from minute to minute. So what we're talking more about
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: they is again quality of life things that I guess
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: a construct that does involve positive emotions, so that's a
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: part of it, but it also involves again deeper and
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: longer lasting constructs life meaning and purpose, like physical health
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: and well being, like very much about the quality of
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: our relationships is very very important, So you know, so
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: that's really I guess what I've focused on and what
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: many academics would have focused on, more than just positive emotions,
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: although they are still important.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: And so when when you're talking about happiness within the
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: Happiness Institute and when you generally talk about it.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Are you are you aligned to some.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Of the models that are out there, whether it's flourishing
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: from Cory Keys, or the perma model from Martin Seligman,
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: or or any any particular ones. Because there's you know,
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: there's lots of different ones out there. What are the
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: ones that you align with most in terms of your
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: own view of that general happiness.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Well, all of the above, I suppose. I mean, as
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I said, my backgrounds in academia, so I'm very much
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: focused on what's with what the evidence supports, and I suppose,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: or to begin with, there's no doubt that Martin's Elegment's
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: work influenced me like I did most people in this field.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: So that perma model that you referred to, well that
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: was actually not even his first version. There was a
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: version before that, but that was very influential in my
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: early cret and still is. You know, that still holds
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: a lot of credibility. I think there's you know, there's
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: a bit of debate about where it should be tweaked
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: or could be tweaked, But there's no doubt that perme
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: you know that those fire.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: We actually go through paramoun for people and then we
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: can dive into other rabbit holes.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: So, for those who aren't familiar, premers an acronym the
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: stands for positive emotions engagement relationships, meaning an achievement or accomplishment. Now,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: there's no doubt that those things are important, and I
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: don't think anyone in the field would dispute that those
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: are you know, key pillars of thriving and flourishing. Again,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: there are many people who would add to that or
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: modify it. So, for example, one of the criticisms, I
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: suppose has been that it doesn't really address physical health
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: and well being.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because a hitchin a letter didn't he Yeah.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Was such evolved into permit plus or permit age. It's
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: been you know, again, there's been multiple variations. Well, the
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: film's been around for twenty or thirty years or twenty
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: plus years now, so of course it's it has evolved.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: That's what science does. So yeah, so that's certainly one,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: you know, variations of that that have been very influential
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: in my career, in my life, and that's what I've
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: certainly taught. Corey Keyes has been very influential and one
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: that I think is very underestimated. So he's very highly
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: regarded amongst academics, I would say, but definitely not as
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: well known in the general public as Salman or some
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: of the others. So I guess to.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Be temp just to John be.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: You know what I really like Corey keyes research, because
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: I dug into that a number of years ago, is
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: the link between his flourishing model and lots of real
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: world outcomes such as medical issues as well as both
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: psychological and medically shoes as well. So whenever I ran it,
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: and this was years ago, when I went into it,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: I thought there's a fur bit more substance around this
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: than some of the earlier things, which would you be
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: aligned with that sort of thinking.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. Look again, I think his work's been fantastic,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: been a fantastic researcher and has said he hasn't been
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: well for whatever reason. His work hasn't caught the popular
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: attention as well as Segment of Seglements and some of
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: the others. And you know, some people have criticized Seglement
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: for being sort of maybe too popular or whatever, but
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's I wouldn't see that as a criticism.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I think that's an important skill and I suppose that's
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: what I've one of the things I've tried to do
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: is take the science and translated and communicate it in
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: a way that's easy to understand. And you know, Marti
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Seligman's been fantastic at that, as some others. And I
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: don't know if Corey Keys, I'm not sure if he's
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: tried or not. But for whatever reason, his reason hasn't
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: been quite as popular, but it's incredibly important. It's incredibly valuable.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: And what I've particularly enjoyed. One of the things that
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I've really taken out of his work particularly is this
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: this quadrant that he works on between sort of psychological
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: well being. Sorry that so that the difference between mental
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: ill health and happiness. So, for example, you can still
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: you know, people who have higher levels of mental ill
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: health can still be happy and vice versa, et cetera.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: And that's something you know, that's sort of a complex,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: subtlety that not everyone has understood as well. But yeah,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: there's no doubt that his work has been super important
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: to many people who work in this area.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: And let's just dive into that a little bit around languishing.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know if he still uses that terminology, but
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: but give us the difference between between those are some
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: of the things that you would see in the different
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: quadrants and why languishing is particularly bad.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: So language, Actually, I think it's fantastic word well, because
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I think it's very descriptive.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: And it's quite descriptive.
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: Right, it's almost like on a matter of payers, like
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: you're saying, it's like it's a bit like right.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I agree, and I think if there's people out
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: there who have never heard it before, I reckon they
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: can probably work out what it means straight away. It's
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: very discoct and that's I mean, it's almost made maybe
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: by accent, but it's a fantastic essentially it means. So
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: it's put up as the opposite almost that from thriving
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: and flourishing. So thriving and flourishing are words that are
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: as I referred to earlier, kind of the bigger picture
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: versions of happiness, so that it's not just about feeling good,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: it's about doing good and just living a good life
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: for what I guess maybe in some of the pop
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: psychology the would call living your best life. That's essentially
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: what thriving and flourishing is about, and that's what I guess,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: that's what most of us have. All of us want
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: a way in towards in some way. Languishing is the
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: opposite or end of that. For example, it's about not
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: feeling good, it's about feeling depressed and anxious and just
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: about not having energy and not having motivation and really
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: not succeeding in life. However you define that. So you know, again,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I think that's something that many of us can relate to.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I think most of us the experienced even a little
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: bit of it at some point in time. Some people
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: experienced a lot of it. But yeah, it's a very
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: important construct which again probably hasn't caught the popular attention
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: as much as some other descriptors or words, but it's
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: again a very important one within the field.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: So let's not talk about the role of money because
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: in the West, particularly, I think a lot of people
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: tend to be focused.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: On money, and as you will well know more than others.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Ten, there's all of this advertising around us telling us
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: that the secret to happiness, whether whether they do it
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: overtly or covertly, that that the secret to happiness is
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: around materialism. What does the science actually say about that
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: and the contribution of money to overall subjective wellbeing, thriving, flourishing, Like,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: how important is it? And what are the limitations? I
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: guess is another way of asking.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to answer that. I'll start answering that
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: by assuming that I think that most of our listeners
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: probably will live in what we would call the Western world,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: but I guess Australia the UK, maybe America, so because
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: there are some cultural differences, but if I'm talking mostly
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: to people certainly here in Australia where I am, but again,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: it's pretty much the same in the UK and North America.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: To go back to a point you make, it's pretty bloody, Averts.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: It's not subtle at all. We are bombarded every minute
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: of every day by messages, advertising marketing messages that tell us, essentially,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: you won't be happy unless you have these things, and
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: to get these things you need money. So material possessions
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: and consumerism. Isn't it a sent It seemed to be
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: an essential part of living a good life in the
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: cultures and the societies in which we live. So which
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: relates to us? Suppose that question has been asked millions
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: of times. I suppose does money by happiness? Can you
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: buy happiness? The answer from psychologists and the loos it's
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: often no. But that's not entirely correct. Nouns is really
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: yes and though, and I'll try to explain that a
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: bit further So, when people say no, money doesn't buy happiness,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: that's a little bit misleading because the extent to which
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: the answer is yes, I know, varies depending on where
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: you are on the economic spectrum us abit so to
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: give you, and I'll oversimplify this a bit, but I
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: think we have to oversimplify it because it does get
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: very complicated. If you're at the very low levels, the
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: very low socoquinement levels, it's so poorly paid. I'm struggling
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: to pay the rent, struggling to put food on the table,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: you know, struggling to pay your bills, et cetera. Then
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: more money will actually make you happier, there's no doubt
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: about it. Well, at the very least it will remove
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: a significant stress or because struggling to pay the bills,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: et cetera is very stressful, creates anxiety and ect et cetera.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: So the very least it will remove significant stresses, but
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: it will actually improve the quality of your life because
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: you can start to actually not just go from week
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: to week and pay the bills, but maybe enjoy a
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: few creature comforts. However, this is where it gets a
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: bit more complicated once you get above. And the big
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: question here, I suppose is how much is enough? Yes,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: and there's a lot of debate about this, but once
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: you get above, what most economists or psychologists awake in
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: this area, consider an average salary or income or house
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: and this again where it gets complicated because some of
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: the studies look at household.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Income and some looks at individuals.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Right, but let's not worry about that for now. Once
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: you get above whatever we define is enough, and there
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: is some question about that, then what we see is
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: that more and more money doesn't necessarily lead to more
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: and more happiness. It only leads to a tiny bit.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: So it's effectively a law of diminishing. So you get
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you do get more happiness from more money up to
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: a certain point, and then it effectively tailors off, doesn't
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: completely flatten, because if we look at the research, the
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: wealthy people are happier, but not by a lot. And
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: the other thing, though, factor into there, is that there
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: are other variables that contribute more significantly to our happiness
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: and health and well being. So money isn't the only thing,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: of course, So it is one thing, and it does
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: play a role, there's no doubt about it. But when
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: we look at the most important contributing factors, it's things
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: like the quality of our relationships, the sense to which
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: we feel connected or belonging, our physical health and wellbeing,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: and these are things that don't necessarily require money. So
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: that's why we get the answer. Yes and no. I
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: suppose it is important, but probably not as important as
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: most people think.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that is really important for people
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: to understand.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: And so I just said, there's another part of that too,
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: which is that how you spend your money can affect
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: the extent to which it.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which I do want to get into because I
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: think that's a pretty good topic to do a dive into.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: But I remember reading so there's a number of peopers
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: there down Air's done a lot of research in that
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: area in terms of the money, which you'll be aware of.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: And then Sonia libermis.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Key is it I think yes, And then I read
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: I can't remember who had written the paper, but it
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: was Sonia Libermisky or somebody else, but it was it
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: was more about money in the bank that it was
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: really Yes, money can all those things that you said
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: that if you're lower, it has a bigger impact on you,
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: and as you rightly pointed out, because it just makes
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: your life easier and you're not worried and stressed so much.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: But then it was when it gets above a certain level,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: it's the money in the bank. The savings tends to
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: have a better impact than your income alone, because you
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: can have a high income but still have a lot
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: of debt because you're overspending.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: So that's I think a little nuance that a lot
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: of people don't realize is.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: That just earning more money, it's not the big thing.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: It's whether or not you actually have some squirreled away,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: which then you can.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Spend on the things that are more important, which we
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: will get into. But that is that your understanding of
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: it as well.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Oh sure, And even just Danik natally so quite it
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: was quite a few years ago now, but I did
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: a big project a while ago with a financial advisory
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: firm basically, so a big firm of financial advisors who's
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: their job was helping people manage their money. And it
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: was fascinating. And this also, you know, a while ago,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I used to do a lot of executive coaching as well. Yes,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: you know, there's are by definition, those are pretty sen
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: you're pretty successful people, you know, C level executives, et cetera.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: And the one example I often reverard to you because
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's just one example, but it's a
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: it's a good example of the point you're trying to
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: make was a senior partner of a professional service firm.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So literally, and this is years ago now, it was
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: literally whose income was at least a million dollars a year. Now,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: for most people, that would seem like a hell of
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of money, and it is. It is a
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: hell of a lot of money. But as he quite
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: rightly pointed out, his expenses, his costs were more than that,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: so he didn't feel wealthy, and in fact, he frequently
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: felt under financial strain. You say that someone earning a
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: million dollars a year not feel wealthy, feel under financial
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: stain because he's spending more. So it's pretty simple formula. Really,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: if your expense is outweigh her income, you're not wealthy.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: So you know that's that's another factor of that. But
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: the key thing I suppose is that when you got
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: that money in the bank type question is that I
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: guess what it does is buy freedom by it's not
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: the money, you know, set what it is the money,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: But it's not the money, but it's what doesn't mean
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: it does?
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well the opportunities is what does it allow you
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: to do it?
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So let's not talk about some of the other
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: things that contribute to that. So we've we've established that
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: that happiness is basically a positive emotion that can be fleeting,
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: and there's lots of other things. But when we want
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: to get into that deeper life satisfaction flourishing, what are
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: some of the big things that pop up? So let's
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: sort of take them one by one. You mentioned earlier
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: on relationships, let's talk about that.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Well, look, you know i'd have to say and not
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: just what i'd say, because what I say doesn't really
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: mean anything. What the research says is that that's almost
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: certainly the most significant factor if you look at all
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: the research well in psychology, in positive psychology, in health
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: and will being, in longevity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: et cetera. The number one factor that stands out time
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: and time again is the quality of our relationships or
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: versions of that, which is a sense of connectedness or
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: a sense of belonging. We referred to a couple of
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: the big names in positive psychology in Martin st. Mardi Selgman,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: and Corey Keys, et cetera. But one of the other founders,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I suppose was Professor Christopher Peterson, and Chris Pederson was
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: a legend of the area. Unfortunately he died a few
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: years ago now, but at the time, you know, a
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: few years ago now, Chris, he spent literally decades of
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: his life before positive psychology was officially a thing, researching
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: living a good life? What does it mean to live
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: a good life? And at a conference once he was asked,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: after twenty thirty years, however long it's been, you know,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: what have you learned? What's the most important things you've
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: learned about living a good life? He famously has become
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: quite a famous story now famously responded by said, I
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: can sum that up in three words. This is an
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: academic who's written multiple books, hundreds of research articles, dedicated
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: twenty thirty years of his life, and he's summing all
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of us up in three words. He said, other people matter,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: so to hear after all of his research and all
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: of his work. And another famous example of that was
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: so Professor George Valence, who was one of the one
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: of many leaders in what's been known as the Harvard
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Adult Men's Study of a famous study in longevity that
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: it's been going for like seventy or eighty years now.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: So there's been multiple leads on that, and he was
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: one of the leads for quite a long time. He
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: was asked a similar question a few years I said,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: what have you learned or what have we learned from
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: this seventy years of research into longevity? And he actually
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: did better than Chris Betterson. He sums it up in
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: one word. He said love. He didn't mean sort of
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: intimate love or romantic love, although that's a part of it,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: but essentially what he's saying is love for rather than
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: being love. So and we say this time and time again. Yes,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: there are other variables that are important, and I'm sure
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: we'll come to them in a minute. But if I
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: had to, if I was forced to name the most
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: significant contributing fact to the health and wellbeing and thriving
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: and flourishing, whatever you want to call it, I would
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: almost certainly say relationships or connectedness.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: There you go, and then think, I guess we only
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: need to look at the opposite of that, which is loneliness,
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: and the impact that loneliness has not only on well
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: being but on longevity. And it's actually as bad for
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: you as smoking twenty second hour today, I think that
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: the stats are our own loneliness.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Right, Really, it's quite shocking. And so there are many
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: public health expects, So people that study health on a
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: sort of global level, not just in most of my works.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I suppose it kind of on an individual or a
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: small level in a way, but people who look at
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: these things at a global level or really are saying
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: that it's probably, if not now, will soon become the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: biggest health factor, you know, killing more people than cardiovascud is,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: these depression, et cetera. So leneliness, as you said, the
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: kind of the opposite end of connecteds is a massive,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: massive problem in something which unfortunately seems to be increasing.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: We really need to address it.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And dare I say unfortunately more in men? M M.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Now that's that's really interesting.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Is there is there a particular edge group in Man
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: that loneliness becomes more of an.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Issue of.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Uh, it's been I'll just qualify this for saying it's
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: been a while since I've looked at their research. But
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: from what I remember, there's sort of fluctuations or there's
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: the different periods of life. So I think if I'm
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: just going to be a bit careful here, because it
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: has been a while since I've looked at a From
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: what I remember, it was worse in younger men and
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: then what you might call middle aged or middle aged
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: or older men. So when you know, when when children
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: have left home, that's sort of forty five fifteen plus
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: age groups. So yeah, but it's it's a significant problem
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: well for all, I mean not just for men, but
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: for many many people. Older people particularly is becoming an
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: issue now as we're living older, you know, so life
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: expectancing is increasing, which you'd say is a good thing,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: but not necessarily if we're lonely and sick and miserable.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, And look, I think that's what the health bit
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: comes into it as well. And tim right, so when
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: when people get older, if they're not particularly healthy, they
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: end up spending a lot more time indoors and on
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: their own, which is really not good for the human
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: brain in general and particularly your well being overall. See,
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: just as you were talking about older man, I remember
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: my dad talking to me, so a little anecdote and
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: I'll get your opinion on this.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I went back.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: It was a number of years ago and my dad
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: had said that something had really started happening in Ireland
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: with middle aged men and particularly farmers a massive spike
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: in suicide whenever Island firmly enacted drink driving laws, and
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: it was the last country in Western Europe to firmly
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: put those laws into place. And he said the problem
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: was that these older men, and particularly a lot of
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: them farmers, would live very lonely existences out working in
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: the field and the church their church was the pub,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: and they would come into the pub a couple of
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: times a week and they would sit around and chat
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: to the other blokes and have three or four pints
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: and then they drive home. Right, that's the reality of
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: what happened. And then when they broad in those laws,
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: they realized and they started enforcing it. If I lose
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: my license, I lose my entire livelihood. So they stopped
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: going to the pub and then suicide rates went through
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: the roof.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Comment on that, yeah, yeah, well, I haven't heard of
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: that specific story in Ireland, but certainly so in Australia.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: We've certainly got very higher rates of suicide, particularly in men,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: and particularly in rural and regional areas. So I'm wonderful
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I suspect there's some similarities there. Let me before I
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: go on, I definitely I think drink driving laws are
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: very important.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, so I suggested bad thing, right, but no, no,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: just consequences right exactly.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: So I think, but I think that is inportant to know.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: But what you said is, you know, there are often
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: consequences to the rules you make or the laws you make,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: and unfortunately, what seems to have happened then is that
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: that particular law, which I think we agree is a
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: good thing, inadvertently led to isolate and loneliness, which is
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: not a good thing obviously. So you know, and again
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: I think we see that in rural and regional areas
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: in Australia particularly as well, where not just because of
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the drink driving, but just because of distance. And we've
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: got such huge to be connected, to stay connected with
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: other people, with other men. So I mean, one of
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: the solutions to that that's been quite successful is men's sheds. Yes,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: you're probably familiar with them, which is fantastic initiative, which
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: is essentially recreating that in a in a workshop. So
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't necessarily I guess need the alcohol there.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: But but i'll cut to the chase. I guess you
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: know what that does highlight is it is obviously important
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: to be connected and as soon as we start or
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: anything that contributes to loneliness or isolation is going to
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: have a significant impact on people's mental health and physical
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: health and well being as well.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, Let's like talk about the big curly one, meaning
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: and purpose, Right, So firstly, what impact, Like, why is
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: it important? And how important is it to have a
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: sense of meaning and purpose in your life?
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, looks it's super important. And I said, that's one
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: of the big pillars or big guns, whatever you're want
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: to court it. It's definitely Again when you look at
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: the research that comes up time and time again, and
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I suppose the way I think about it in some
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: ways I guess is that that's what takes the positive
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: emotion part of happiness to the thriving and flourishing part
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: of happiness. You know, that's why meaning and purpose adds
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: that deeper level, because if you have that meaning and purpose,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: that's what you know that gets you through those day
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: to day there fluctuations. We're all going to have good
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: and bad days. We're going to have shitty days. You know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: stuff's going to go wrong. You know, technology is going
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: to fail, someone's going to let us down. That's that's life,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: you know. So there will be times in our life,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: some more than others, I suppose, and some more significant
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: than others. But there will always be times when shitty
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: stuff happens, we get frustrated and whatever. But the meaning
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: and purpose is a big part of what helps you
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: get through that, because that provides is a bigger perspective,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: something beyond beyond me as an individual. So if I
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: know you know that, I guess it puts my personal
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: problems into perspective. That's a big part of what it
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: does perspective. So you know, without that, we can really
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: get tossed backwards and forwards by the day to day
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: whatever is. Whereas if we have that, that's the rudder
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: that steers the ship. I suppose I'm using a whole
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: lot of metaphors here, but yeah, it's important for that reason,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: and you know, it gives us a reason to keep
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: going through hard times and a sense of satisfaction beyond
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: that sort of superficial pleasure that we get from from
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: lesser things.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: I think that it's really important that you mired that distinguished.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: I show you distinguished between those two points.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I think you know.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I'm doing a lot of research and my PSC into
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: the concept the psychological constructive heartiness, which is, you know, control,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: orientational challenge and the commitment or orientation, and from commitment
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: to orientation. A massive part of it is meaning and purpose.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: And they've shown over and over again in the research
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: that when you believe that you're doing something meaningful or
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: when you're going through difficulties, I mean, Victor Frankl talked
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: about this Man's search for meaning that when you can
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: create or ascribe meaning to your situation, if it feels meaningful,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: then it helps to buffer stress.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: And I think that that is massive, right.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: I think there was a famous buses study where some
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: of the people just thought they were driving a bus,
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: and then other people thought that there was meaning behind it,
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: and some of the drivers that they were doing meaningful
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: work and they had a lot less cardiovascular disease and
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: other stuff.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: So I think that stress buffering is one thing, but then.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: There's the other side of it, where you feel like
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: you have a sense of meaning in life and you
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: are then more in geared in life.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: They are just stink Dante the.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Distinct but complimentary you know, it's almost like, I guess,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin. And and yeah, there's
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: there's a you know, there's another metaphor along with that
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: bus driver one, I suppose, which is the you know,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: the bricklayer. He thought there's three bricklayers, one who thought
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: he was just laying bricks, one who thought he was
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: building a wall, the other one who realized that it
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: was going to become a church or something. Yeah, it's
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: kind of like what so, you know for those who
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: aren't familiar with because it's a hardiness, for example, the
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: fairly specific construct within psychology, but for most people it's
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: probably similar to what they call resilience or GrITT get
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: they're all related constructs. And this sort of sense of
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: meaning and purpose is what it's what can provide that
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: light at the end of the tunnel. So it's things
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: things seemed dark as this cloud over me, I just
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: can't see my way through well, but I can see
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: that glimmer that meaning and purpose is what allows me
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: to keep going because I know things will get better.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I know there's a bigger picture there. And yeah, I
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: think we all need version of that.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: And how do you in your work, whether you're coaching
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: one on one or or or or mass stuff, or
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: in your.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Books or whatever.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: How do you help people to here's the million dollar question,
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: how you help or steer people towards finding a sense
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: of meaning and purpose in life?
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Any little tips and tricks.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, for those who are maybe a bit more
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: academically minded. Michael Steiger is an American. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: it's a fantastic work in this area. It was a
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: lovely guy as well. But if you can look up
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: his work, I mean most is fairly academic. He has
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: written a bit of stuff a bit more popular, but
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: he writes a lot about this is again it's probably
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: one of the world's ladies in this area. And I
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: guess there's a couple of ways to do it. So
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: one one of the things we can do is look
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: to people we admire, you know, look to our heroes
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: or look to role models or that don't necessarily to
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: be famous. It could be your father or an uncle
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: or another or whoever could be. But and then ask ourselves,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: you know, what is it about them we admire or
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: how are they living their life? And how might I
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: be able to We'll not copy it exactly because we
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: need to do it in our own way, but what
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: might be my version of that? Because more often than not,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: if we admire someone, if we look up to them,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: they've probably got some at least a bit of this
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: meaning and purpose that we're talking about here. So that's
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: one thing. A similar version to that is reading. You know,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: there's lots of great self help books out there that
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: inspirational you refer to man Search for Meaning, et cetera.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Obviously one of the big classics, but there's lots out there,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: and obviously audio books as well. Look online, try a
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: few and start just to get ideas, because again, there's
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: no one way to do it, and my answer to
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: this question will probably be different to yours, and then
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: also they'll be different again, so we do need to
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: find our own path, our own version to that meaning
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: and purpose. So we can, you know, we can look
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: at the research, we can look at role models. We
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: can also just engage in trial and error, just try
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: things out, try different meaningful progress projects or bigger projects
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: and see what works. In particularly if there are younger
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: listeners out there. I think one of the things we
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: need to recognize is that most people won't know the
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: answer to this in their teens or in their twenties.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: But that's okay. That's fine. We shouldn't even expect it.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you do, good luck to you. But
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: for many of us, you know, that's what our younger years,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: I suppose should be about. Trying things out, making mistakes,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: learning what works, and being I suppose, at the risk
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: of blatant self promotion, that's kind of what Lost and
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Founds about. That's about accepting those wanderings and failures as
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: part of the process, part of the journey. We can't
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: ever really find our way if we don't get lost
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: every now and then. And then one of the other ones,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, one of the I suppose, in some ways
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: simplest but also most effective ways to add being in
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: purpose to our lives is through volunteering. Just a very
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: practical suggestion. This is something I've done a lot of,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: particularly in recent years of the last decod or so,
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: volunteering to a cause that's meaningful to you. Again, there's
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: all sorts of colt So for me, a lot of
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: it's been around mental health and mental ill health. That's
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: obviously meaningful for me in all sorts of ways. But
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: it could be animals, it could be the environment. Whatever. Again,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: there's no right or wrong answers, but being part of
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: something bigger than you, contributing to some cause that means
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: something to you is a great way to add many
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: and well there's all sorts of other benefits to volunteering
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: as well, and so again a relatively simple but incredibly
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: powerful way to add to add to our thriving and flourish.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: Just on that, you just mentioned something though, that made
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: me think of a quote that I absolutely love that
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: I generally steer people too. And it's from Seneca, the
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Stoic philosopher. And I'm trying to remember this quote computer brope,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: so that I may get slightly off track, but he said,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: every individual burst of responsibility to be of value to humanity,
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: if possible to benefit a large number, if not to
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: benefit a smaller group, if that too seems unattainable, then
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: to benefit their immediate community, which I.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Think is awesome.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: But he finishes it by saying, however, above all, they
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: must prioritize self growth and personal well being. And I
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: think that the thinking on that is that if you
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: prioritize your self growth and particularly a personal well being,
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: then you're in a better state to be of value
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: to humanity, and and and as I will say to people.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: You know, if you think about that quote, this is
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: this meaning, sense of meaning in purpose in life. It's
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: not about creating a massively successful startup and running an
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: orphanage in Nepal at the same time. Right, it's just
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: about as you said that that contributing to something that's
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: that's bigger than yourself, which often involves other people, right,
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: which then brings us back to the relationship thing.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Right, couldn't agreement? I mean, that's that's as versions of that,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: but fantastic give that big thumbs up all around. And
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: it's similar to it, I guess in a very simplified
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: version that I've been saying for many, many years. Is it?
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And it goes back to this idea between I guess
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: happiness first thriving, I suppose. But happiness isn't just feeling good,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: it's also doing good. Yes, And that's something that's often
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: miss well underappreciated, I suppose, because if we do. And
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: it also another thing I talk a lot about, which
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: is really important, is that a lot of people see
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: a dichotomy between selfishness and selflessness, or they see self
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: help or self care as being selfish, but it's not
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: if we look at it in the context of that
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: fantastic quote, you guy. So for example, if I want
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: to do good in the world, which I do, I
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: can't do that if I'm sick and tired and miserable.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: So if I don't take care of myself and I've
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: got no energy and no motivation, then how can I
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: do the good things? Whereas if I do take care
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: of myself, not in a selfish way, but with the
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: view that I'm going to look after myself so I
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: can look after others, that's what we need to So
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: when we look at it, that selfishness and selflessness kind
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: of work together.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And it's the whole put your own oxygen
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: mask on first, right and and you know, so if
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: you do look after yourself, you're going to be a
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: much better human to be better than others. And the
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: only caveat that I put on the self care thing,
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: you know, my cris, I'd just say self care is
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: not sitting with your feed up with a bottle of
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: wine watching Netflix. That's that's self indugence and relaxation, which
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: is different to self care. What else are the kind
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: of significant contributors. So we've we've talked about that sense
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: of meaning and purpose. We talked about relationships as well
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: as the positive emotions.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Any other big.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Ticket items for for for people for enhancing their flourishing
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: and thriving.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Well, there's quite a few others, I suppose, but the
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: two other big ones that there's probably three other three
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: other big ones that we haven't touched a lot on
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: with We touched b but I guess just really quickly
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and then let me know which we're no elaborator on one.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: You know, we do know that setting and working towards
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: meaningful goals is really important. We also know and I
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: suspect that this will be important, is well physical health
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: and well being is important. So we know, for example,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: that exercise is fantastic in many many ways, but not
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: just in the way people think about it. So it's
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: not just about building muscular strength or cutting a vascular
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: aerobic fitness, or even flexibility. Those things are really important.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: They allow us to do what we want to do
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: to live life. But we also know that exercise, for example,
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: is one of the most effective antidepressants, one of the
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: best stressbusters. It helps us slip better. So you know
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: again that I mean, most people would think exercise is
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: a good thing, but I don't think many people appreciate
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: the real benefits, the psychological benefits that come from exercise.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: So sorry, setting and work and do as many for
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: goals physical health and well being, including sleep, which is
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: often in court. And then the other one. I guess
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: there's a whole group of stuff that again there's slightly different,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: but they're all related that I guess you could put
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: under the heading of mindset or ergy. These things optimism, hope, gratitude,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: which are again undoubtedly very very important contributors.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I'd like to dive into that, but
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: just before we do, and the physical health and wellbeing,
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's kind of my wheelhouses and neuroscientists and physiologists,
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: and I always say to people there's a brilliant quote
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: from Professor Frank Booth who over a decade ago said
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: the human genome hasn't changed in over forty five thousand years,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: and the current human genome requires and expects us to
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: be highly physically active for normal functioning. And I say,
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: I always say, nowhere's that statement more true than any
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: human brain. Because most people get that exercise boost your mood,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: and people will talk about endorphins, which are important, but
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: every time you exercise, you get increases in dopamine, in serotonin,
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: in nowhe adrenaline, as well as in doorphins, as well
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: as endocannabinoids. And I'd say to people there's like an orchestra.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: There's a symphony in your brain of neurotransmitters when you're
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: being active, but it's when you're sedentary you deprive your
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: brain of those neurotransmitters that it needs to function normally.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: And I think that's a really important part that people
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: don't get is.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: That, yes, they get that exercise boos.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Your mood, but if you're not highly active, you actually
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: deprive your brain of those chemicals that it needs to
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: function normally. And then you get BDNTH and all sorts
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: of growth factors that are released in the brain when
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: we exercise as well.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, well it's totally fully agreat totally great. But
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I would actually add to that that, in addition to
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: all those biological physiological what if you want to call
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: them in factors, there's also again, when we exercise, we
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: tend to get a sense of satisfaction. Yes, I've achieved there,
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: or I've lifted a heavy weight, and not always but
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: more often than not. A lot of the time, we're
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: also often interacting with other people if you're in the gym,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: if you're in a group, or if you're you're exercise buddy.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: I mean I do exercise quite a bit on my own,
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: but a lot of the time people are exercising with
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: other people, so you also get that connection. So on
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: top of all those and again I totally agree with you,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: but there's a biological physiological benefits are very real. There
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: are psychological and social factors that are you know that
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be under a say and you know, we do
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: know that actually exercising with others provides benefit. And then
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: the other part actually, which if you want to add
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: another layer to it, is if you exercise outdoors. Yes,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: in some researcher says the even more benefits to get
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: that fresh air, sunlight, et cetera, et cetera.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: So we need a new word because because as you
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: were talking, I'm going biocycle social, but we need to
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: add in environmental, right, bios by psychle social environmental benefits
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: of exercise, which is that might be for the longer word, right, yeah,
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: let's do it. But I do want to come back
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: and talk about those last two things. I'm aware of
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: your time, but I did actually wanted to ask your
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: opinion on something professional opinion. You mentioned achievement, right, there's
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: lots of talk about self esteem, and you know, we
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: know the Limitations of the Whole Booster is a movement
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: that came out of the United States. How important is
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: achievement and accomplishment in your view in a building people's
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: self worth and self esteem? But then be how that
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: plays into flourishing.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Well, it's very important for a number of reasons, I think.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: So let me I'll just go back a step. And
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: so this has often talked about in the context, and
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: I think you might have mentioned this a bit earlier.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: You know, isn't the journey or the destination? That's kind
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: of that philosophical you know, which is an interesting question,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: I suppose, and again one that I talked about in
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: my book quite a for obvious reasons. But a lot
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: of people will say, you know, you've got to enjoy
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: the journey, it's not about the destination. But I don't
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: entirely agree with that. I think they're both important. Destinations
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: are important if you've trained really hard and you've run
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: that mouth on when you cross that line, and I'm
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: saying this sort of literally and metaphorically, it feels bloody great.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: And when I finish my PhD, I'm sure when when
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: you finish your VHD, when I finish the Yes, it
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: does feel and it should feel good. There's nothing wrong
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: with feeling good. However, I guess this, and this is
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: where you know, the other argument comes in. If that's
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: the only satisfaction you get, then you could be waiting
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: a long time. Yeah, you know, and and and you're
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: missing out on a lot in between. So again, so
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: my answer to that is, it really is both. There's
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: nothing wrong with destinations. But if we can enjoy the
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: journey in all of its messiness sometimes and ugliness along
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: the way, then that's even better. So we get, you know,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: we get the best of both worlds, I suppose. But
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: coming back to your question, I would argue more so,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: I've really tried to avoid I think that the concept
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: of self esteem, as you've hinted, that is a very
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: complex and problematic one, and I've tended to I guess
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: I focus a bit more and have done for quiet.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Now now on some related but slightly different concepts. One
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: is something we call self efficacy, which I'm sure you're
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: familiar with it. Yes, So that's I guess it's it's
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: like a sense of control at the risk of oversimplifying,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: and that's really important. If we feel we've got to
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: sense a bit of control over ourselves, over our lives,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: over our outcomes, you know that we can influence and
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: make our world better. That's really important. It's not just
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: about feeling good for the sake of feeling good. It's
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: about having this again, so it relates to lockers of control.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: This, yeah, but can you can you talk about that? Tim? Sorry?
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: Sorry, just you finish what you're saying. And then just
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: distinguished for our guess about internal versus external lookers of control,
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: because I actually think that's really really important.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: So I would argue, so self efficacy and lockers of control,
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: I would say, much more important self esteem. And then
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: the other part, which again I focus a lot more
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: on recent is is self compassion, which is again slightly
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: very different, but I would say much better construct to
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: and towards lockers of control. For the Again, these things
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: overlap a bit, but that it's an idea again that
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: we have some control or we that we focus on
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: those things. Let me start that again. There are many
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: many things in the world over which we have no control.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: That's just life.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: You know. I can't control all the things that I
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: would like to control or that are you know, I
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: can't change everything that I would like to change in
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: the world. If I try to change those things that
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: are beyond my control, I'm just going to feel frustrated, disappointed, angry, whatever,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: which doesn't really help anyone. So what we know about
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: the happiest people, those people the most satisfied in effects
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: that they tend to focus more on those things that
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: are within their lockers of control or some people say
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: circle of influence. There's related constructs here, and they're more
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: accepting of those other things. So it's part of this
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: is actually acceptance of imperfection, except that the world isn't
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: always and won't always be the way we like it.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: So it's so internal lock control is focusing on what
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: things that I can do to make the world or
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: make my world better place in various ways, and it
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: relates to the more we do that, the more we
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: have a significant influence in those areas anyway, then that
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: also sort of builds up self efficacy, so they kind
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: of relate to each other in a way. But throughout
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: all of that, no matter what we you know, what
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: constructs we refer to, or how we talk about those things,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: We're not going to get it right all the time.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to better control everything or changing everything
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: all the time. And again that's where this idea of
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: acceptance is really important, or the construct of self compassion.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: So increasingly this is something I found to be more
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: and more important in my personal life and in my
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: work I do, which is the idea that no matter
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: how good you are, no matter how hard you work,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: no matter what you do, you well fail at times. Why,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: because you're a human, and because we're imperfect, because we're available,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: will all fuck up, We will all step off and
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: get things wrong. Now, what's important, though, is not whether
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: you fail or not, but how you then respond to yourself.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: And so I've been guilty in the past of being
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: very critical of my and a lot of us are
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: highly critical. Why did I get that wrong? Why didn't
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I get it right? Why did I stuff that up?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: I should have known better, I should have done better,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. People that do that tend to
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: be unhappier. It's really that quite simple, whereas people who
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: are able to show. And it's also something we would
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: never say those sorts of things to other people. You know,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: I'm far more critical of myself than I'd ever been
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: my wife, to my kids, to my friends. I say
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: things to myself I would never say to anyone else,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't help. In fact, it's distinctly unhelpful. So
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: self compassion is about recognizing that. It's about recognizing that
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: we're imperfect, accepting that, but treating ourselves with the same kindness,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: being gentle with ourselves in the same way we probably
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: would be with a loved one, with a best friend,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: with a colleague. You know, even in the workplace, we're
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: often much nicer to other people than we add to ourself.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: So even if we focus on the self advocacy and
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: the self control lockers of control, it's again the idea
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: is we won't get it right all the time. But
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: that's okay, no one does. Yeah, I mean who out
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: there gets everything right all the time?
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely?
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: A couple of things that I'd just like to comment
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: and just to reinforce what you just said, I'm a
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: big fan of the Stoic.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Philosophers and empties.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: The very first line of the entredy on is of
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: things some are up to us and others are not.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: And the Stoics talk about these two zones, that the
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: stuff that's within your control and the stuff that's not.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: And the key is to focus on that which you
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: can control and refuse to invest your energy and the
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: stuff you can control. So that's exactly what you said,
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: but in different terms.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: But there's this other.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: There's a beautiful world from Japanese psychology called arugamama, which
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: means with things as they are, what needs to be done.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: So it's an acceptance, but it's not a passive acceptance.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: It's one that then leads into action. And I think
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: you kind of talked about that, you know, it's like
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: it's not what happens about how we respond that really
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: is the key thing. So yeah, I just wanted to
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: throw that in there to kind of back up what
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: you just said. But just Kiven, we've only got a
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: few minutes left. Can you talk a little bit about optimism, hope.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: And gratitude. I just read a research.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: I'm a massive fan of gratitude since I thirty years
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: ago when I met somebody in India who had elephant
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: titus and leprosy, and every single day since then, I've
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: done a gratitude richal but I know that it is connected.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: Gratitude is connected to hope and to optimism. So just
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: quickly go over those three concepts and why they're important,
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: and any big takeouts for people.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to do in a couple of minutes
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: because there's a lot to say there, but in short,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: if I had to, So, my background in clinical psychology
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: was most most of my training was in what's called
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: cognitive behavior therapy or compuent theraptist, and many people would
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: have heard of that because it's been I guess it's
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: been the most dominant form of therapy for the last
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: all of my lifetime as well, So you fifty sixty,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: seventy years whatever, It's evolved slightly so now it now
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: includes acceptance, commitment therapy and markets. But anyway, the core,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: the heart and soul of all of those contemporary approaches
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: is essentially that the way we think about things is important.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: So what happens to us is important, but the way
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: we think about what happens is more important. And that's
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: you know, what sometimes called mindset or attitude. Our beliefs
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: are expectations. In short, we can think about things in
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: different ways. Some ways more of what we might call pessimistic,
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: where we see the worst than everything we see everything
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: is wrong. Other ways might be more we call optimistic,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: which is looking for the good and looking for hope.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: And that's why again, these things, hope and optimism and
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: gratitude are all kind of related concept. It's not most
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: of us aren't sort of black and white about it.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: So all of us will sort of do all of that.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we'll have days when we feel a bit down
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: and we'll see things a bit more pessimistically, and other
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: days when we're more able to see hope and optimism. However,
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: some people will tend more to the extremes and others.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: And there's no doubt that those people who are more optimistic,
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: more grateful, more hopeful, are happier and more successful in life.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Now the really important thing, So there's two most If
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: I go back to my studies, I guess the two
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: most important things I learned in this area is one,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: the way we think about things is important, as I've
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: just said, But two and this is really important. We
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: can change the way we think about which is super
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: super important because some of us might be born with
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: the predisposition to like a tendency to go a certain way,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: so you might be more some of us might tend
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: more towards pessimism. But it doesn't mean that's how you
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: have to think, I have to be for the rest
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: of your life. Because we can change the way we
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: think about things with practice. I guess, you know, like
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: the metaphy sometimes easy. You know, you can go to
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: the gym and exercise and build up your biceps or
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: build up your cords or whatever. If you exercise that
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: muscle enough. Well, if we exercise our optimism muscle or
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: our gratitude muscle, we can literally build it up. We
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: can become stronger metaphorically in that area. And that's what
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: a gratitude practice does. For example, like you, I do
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: that every day. I actually just write a blog about
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: that this morning. There are simple ways we can practice gratitude.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: You know, the three good things, exercise, what what's going well? Exercised,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: but writing down, just setting aside, and you only need
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: a couple of minutes. I mean I only been probably three,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: four or five minutes to day, I don't how in
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: your state, but doesn't take a lot of time. It
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: doesn't have to take a lot of time. But writing
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: down what's going well, directing your attention to the good
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: things in your life and any more and more generally
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: is undoubtedly helpful. And the more you do it, the
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: better you get.
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: I suppose your one thing, because I've been such a
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: big fan of gratitude and have been doubling down on it.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: And my my wife, she she did, she'd a blog
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: about awe and I actually thought I started to combine
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: the two of them right, and and just would have
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: little moments where sometimes I'd just turn the tap on
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: and then step back and go, how cool is that ship?
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: Like running water? How awesome is running one? And then
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: just think about all the things that need to happen, right,
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: And sometimes I'll turn the light on and go Jesus electricity, like.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: How amazing is that?
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: And even on the week on the weekend i'd started yesterday,
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: I was weeding and rather than just waiting, I started
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: like really thinking about weeds, and I freaking resilient and
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: awesomely are because they keep coming back. But I actually think,
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: if you start to look for awe in the world
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: and then combine it with gratitude. I actually think it's
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: a real accelerated it's just a little an equals one experiment,
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: but I'm actually finding it really quite fascinating.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Gravely, I'd love to said that actually, and again I
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: hope I'm not, you know, plugging it too much. But
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: I wrote quite a bit this in my book actually
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: because I thinks, all it's a psychological construct that's kind
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: of been overlooked. There's some fascinating research into it, and
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: fascinating research is showing how beneficial it is, but it
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem to have gained the attention that gratitude not.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: I mean again, they're all related, yes, but it hasn't
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: got quite the attention the public that gratitude and optimism
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: and hope of doing or as you quite rightly said,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: is inspiring and it's something that we can look for
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: and can find in our daily lives. For me and
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: you kind of ender this it often comes from nature,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: so historically it was often seen, it was often part
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: of many of the major religions, you know, so all
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: sort of part of spirituality, and it can still be
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: for many many people but for those of us, for
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: people who don't necessarily have a strong religious bent, nature
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: is another area where or in trees and mountains and lakes,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: beaches or whatever are great opportunities for ll and for
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: the positive emotion that's center positivemtion that comes from that.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it does relective gratitude of you said, and
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: linking those two together, it's fantastic idea.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very cool. This has been bloody awesome so for people.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: So your new book is called Lost and Fined by
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: doctor Tim Sharp, and you also have the Happiness Institute.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: What other resources because I know you've got some courses
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: on Happiness Institute that people can take, But what's the
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: where can people go?
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: Blog? Website, books? Because I'm sure people will want to
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: know more from this conversation.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Well, thanks for giving the opportunity. Probably the simplest one
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: is to go to my website, which is doctor Heppy
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: dot com dot you, so d R H A P
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: b Y dot com dot you and from there you
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: can get well it's links to my books. I've got
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of audiobooks as well. If anyone's into audible,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: there's ten or eleven audiobooks now, but also that will
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: take you to if social media, so on Facebook and Instagram,
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: it's the Happiness Institute doctor Heppy on Twitter x as
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: anyone that didn't get a touch for the website. And
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: also there's a blog there, a weekly news there, all
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: sorts of stuff for different people depending on how you
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: want to consume your news as well.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: Cool and importantly as well, I would imagine you're still
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: doing corporate talks because there's there's lots of corporates who
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: listen to this podcast because they've they've heard me speak.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: So if they if they want to book you to
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: come in and talk about a deeper level of enduring happiness,
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: presumably they can get in touch through your website as well.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, to be honest, that's most of what I
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: do now. Well, speaking and writing is most of what
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: I do. So yep, get to host to the website
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: for sure. Thanks for the opportunity to give it a plug.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: Awesome, not a problem.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: And I'm sure Tim that you were very happy when
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: you managed to get the u ur l doctor Happy
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: dot com.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: That are you? That's a cracker.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Gosh it, I haven't thought about it for a long time,
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: and I've heard it for probably twenty years and said now, so, yeah,
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: I guess I guess it was a bit luck. Yeah,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I hadn't really thought about that for a long time.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: It's a good point. I'll be grateful that I did.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, excellent. Okay, it's been awesome.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, thanks for having me. Good luck
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: with ak.