Latest / Mortgage Marketing Radio / How to Recession Proof Your Business As A Divorce Mortgage Specialist

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How to Recession Proof Your Business As A Divorce Mortgage Specialist · Mortgage Marketing Radio

0:00
In today's highly competitive mortgage industry, building profitable relationships with
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1:03
So this niche matters even more now.
1:06
Divorce is evergreen in the sense that every year there are 40% to 50% of marriages that
1:11
are not going to continue someone's filing for divorce.
1:15
But given the current challenges, the one difference between 2008-2009 and now, people
1:21
have equity according to Harvard and CoreLogic.
1:24
They've been confirming America is four times more likely to be equity-positive if not
1:29
equity-rich.
1:31
What does that mean?
1:32
When they divorce, they can afford new loan origination.
1:36
When they divorce, they can pay their lawyer out of house equity and they can afford to
1:40
write size.
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They may not be able to afford the marital house.
1:45
And that's why we've always taught in the order of due diligence when you're going
1:51
through divorce and you have real property with secured debt.
1:55
The first step always is mortgage.
1:58
Hey, it's Jeff Zinfur, of course, you already knew that, I think, unless it's your first
2:16
time here.
2:17
Welcome to the mortgage marketing radio podcast.
2:20
So thrilled you have chosen to give us a little bit of your time today and tune in.
2:23
And I think you're going to be excited in just a moment when you hear from our special
2:28
guests today.
2:29
But before we get into that, a quick note from our sponsor and this episode is brought
2:33
to you by me.
2:35
That's right, yours truly.
2:37
And look, in the market situation we're in right now, one thing that's important for
2:41
your survivability and for minimizing the ups and downs and flattening out the rollercoaster
2:46
ride of income is your sources of business, your team, right?
2:52
And if there's anything that helps you weather the storm and get through the storm, it's
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who you've got around you, right?
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Who you've got on your team in a fox hole with you.
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And that's where it comes to down to referral partners.
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I can tell you that as people come into my community and they go to our Facebook group,
3:05
right at mortgage marketing radio and they answer the questions to come in and ask them,
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what's their biggest challenge right now?
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I will tell you that at least seven or eight out of every 10, it deals with more real
3:16
to referrals, right?
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And say what you want about real to referrals, you know, every source of business has
3:22
the challenges and issues.
3:24
But let's just face it, real to referrals, when you do it right, when you work with the
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right partners, when you have the right dynamics of the relationship, they're highly profitable
3:31
low maintenance.
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So it's high return low effort.
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And today is the perfect opportunity now in this market for you to build your team of
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real to referral partners.
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The better question is how do you do it?
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How do you get real to referrals?
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There's lots of different ways, call call, door knocking, open houses, broker previews,
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pay for leads, all that truth is, none of that stuff works very well.
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And what works better and works consistently over time is when you help people solve problems.
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You lead with education.
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And so you've probably by now been hearing me tell you about my agent classes in the mortgage
4:03
marketing, throw platform.
4:06
And I'm just reading through a list of testimonials that I put up, which I'm going to give you
4:10
the web page in a moment, you could go check that out.
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So you can go check this out.
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So here's my latest one from Kenny, did a planning your best year ever class today, 14
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agents.
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Every agent opened up.
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Did the camera have the first lead from one of the agents before I even got back to
4:24
the house?
4:25
Here's Glenda celebrating a victory 30 qualified agent conversations, 10 new leads all from
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classes.
4:30
Let's see here, a couple of scrolling scrolling.
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Here's Melissa held my first class today on social media trends for 2022.
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We had 12 agents in person and another six on zoom, the agents love the content.
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Where else can I go?
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Jeremy had my third agent class in two months.
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Every agent there wants to follow up meeting.
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I don't know why it took me so long to get signed up.
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I could go on and on.
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Here's Kenny again, the other class in the books.
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He just booked another class, two new appointments set.
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One Realtor pulls me aside and says, I'm your new lender, right?
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So guys, how do you get the attention of realtors?
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How do you get referrals, engagement conversations, right?
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You do that by building a pre-eminent brand, a pre-eminent business, and one that is superior
5:12
and rises above all else.
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It's not that hard.
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One simple way to do it is tell a different story.
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One simple way to do it is actually show up differently and help solve problems, and
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that's what we help our members do, like you just heard about over at the mortgage marketing
5:25
pro. membership.
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I've put up a brief video.
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If you want to go check that out and learn more to walk you through exactly what's involved,
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what you get and who's this for and again, who it's not for.
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But if you believe in agents as one of the pillars of your business and you want to leave
5:38
with an educational platform, you want to attract instead of chase realtors and get referrals
5:42
on demand, go to mortgagemarketing.pro to check it out.
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Walk you.
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All right, this week I'm bringing back for a third time by very special guests.
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And it's not often that I bring people back on the show for a third time, but I feel
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that it's appropriate and right to do that considering the situation we're in on the
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market.
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At the moment ago I talked about your team and building your team around you.
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Well, if you guys have heard me, you've heard me say that if I was to get back into origination
6:09
I would focus on a niche, one or two niches, probably at most, and you've heard me mention
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those niches in the past.
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I've said reverse as a niche.
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I've said self-employed, right?
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DSCR loans, other types of niches, specialties, right, where it requires a certain amount
6:24
of education or knowledge that allows me to position myself differently than the average
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every day, same as lane, plain vanilla, mortgage originator in the country.
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And one of those niches is divorce.
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And in this market, well, first of all, divorce is what's called an evergreen niche, which means
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divorce happens in any market during any interest rate environment.
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And interestingly enough, it's even more difficult in this market with rising interest rates.
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And back in 2008, as you'll hear our guests explain, it was a different situation with
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divorce because people didn't have equity in their homes.
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Now they do.
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And now, real estate is a centerpiece of the divorce.
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And they're looking for knowledgeable providers that can help guide them along the way.
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So who am I talking about?
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I am talking about Professor Leslie Murray, who is faculty and co-founder for DivorceThisHouse.com.
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She has two law degrees, one from Stanford, one from Harvard Law.
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She's also a teaching professor at Vanderbilt University.
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So one, listen to this episode, you're going to get incredibly educated.
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Two, her co-host and my guest, once again, is Wendy Whistle, co-founder of DivorceThisHouse.com.
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And Wendy is just an amazing woman, a bundle of energy.
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And if you are not impacted by her energy and insights and what she has to say, then you
7:43
can unsubscribe right now.
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How's that?
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So look, the divorce niche is maybe not for everybody because you have to be about solving
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problems and have empathy for people and not have commission breath, right?
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You've got to be focused on, how do I help people navigate this?
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The divorce niche, when you approach it correctly and you get the right information and
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the right guidance can be incredibly profitable for you, not just from a standpoint of understanding
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how to attract and engage and partner with attorneys of all types, right?
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Divorce attorneys, real estate attorneys, mediators and others, financial professionals,
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right?
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But also think about building your team and bringing this value to just a few select
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real estate agencies partners because what happens in a divorce situation, either you
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re-fi the house or you sell the house, right?
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And typically you're going to have a little bit more higher asset value people engaging
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in a divorce, which means there may be multiple properties involved.
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So listen to this episode.
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And if you feel you want to learn more, take the next step.
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We've put a link in the show notes, but here's the website you want to go check out MMI.divorcethishouse.com.
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I went through this training five years ago.
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It's fantastic.
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We've had a number of our listeners go through it.
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It's fantastic.
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And they're now working with attorneys and getting business.
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And they're, you know, having business come to them and they're seeing now as a trusted
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advisor.
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So listen to the episode.
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Link is in the show notes.
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If you want to go check it out and learn more.
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And without further ado, let's get into this week's show.
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Wendy and Professor Murray, welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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Great to be here.
9:12
Great to have you.
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So I like to do this usually when I have more than one guest is give the listeners an auditory
9:17
connection to who's who.
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So Professor Murray, why don't you get started, kick us off.
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Just brief bio, who are you and what do you do?
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I'm Professor Kelly Murray and I'm the co-founder along with Wendy Whistle of divorcethishouse.com.
9:30
And that is a resource for mortgage professionals and real estate licensees on how to work together
9:38
in a very particular niche.
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And we've had that business going since 2008.
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So we're looking at, we've been doing this for quite some time.
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And what's interesting is right now is one of the strongest times to consider the divorce
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mortgage niche.
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Absolutely.
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And my co-founder, I'll briefly introduce her, is Wendy Whistle.
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She has an extensive background in advertising and I'll let her take it from there.
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Go ahead, Wendy.
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Yes.
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Well, it's my pleasure to say hello to all the listeners.
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I am the person that you're probably going to contact first with divorce this house
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to learn more about what we're doing if you're curious.
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I always answer all the questions.
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I'm easy to get a hold of.
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And then I'm your coach after the training because we're going to customize to what it
10:25
is that you want to accomplish.
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And that's my job to get you started and follow your success.
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And she's really good at it.
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I'm a former favorite kindergarten teacher.
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So maybe that matters.
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It does help.
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Well, that is good training ground for coaching and single-own officers.
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All right.
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Now, I should have said welcome back to the show because you are both of you are in an
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elite group.
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You are one of the few that are back for a third time on the podcast.
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So that says a lot.
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Trust me.
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And I bring you back for good reason.
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As you pointed out, a moment ago, Professor Murray in that divorce is a very important conversation
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in regards to real estate at this moment in juncture and time with what's going on in
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the market and housing, et cetera.
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And if those listening who don't know, because since you were last on, and maybe people
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didn't hear the original two episodes is, I went through your training as well.
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That's at least five years ago, I think, while I was still living in California.
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And so I'm thrilled to bring this conversation to our listeners today because some listeners
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have heard me say in the past, if I was to start originating again today, I would become
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a specialist.
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I would focus on a niche.
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And the niches that I would consider would be perhaps reverse and divorce is one of those
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other niches as well because you, Professor Murray, would like to use the term, I believe
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you said, is evergreen niche, right?
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So can you talk about what you mean by that?
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Why is divorce an evergreen niche?
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There are two pieces to that.
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Number one, divorce is evergreen, meaning people are always going to get divorced.
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Andy Wiesel and I have been working in this niche since 2008.
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And as you remember, 2008 was the mortgage meltdown.
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So it was in the most challenging times to start this niche.
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And one of the challenges back then that we're not seeing now was the lack of equity in
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a house.
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The lack of equity in a house meant people could not afford to get divorced because they
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couldn't pay their lawyer.
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And so they delayed getting divorced.
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And even then people were still divorcing.
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It's just others waited fast forward to right now.
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There are definitely challenges in the mortgage market.
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There are challenges from mortgage rates to the real estate market.
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Those do not affect divorce in the sense in the way they affect residential real estate
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generally.
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Because divorce is a legal process where they have to divide the finances.
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They have to, the court is going to require them to take a look at their finances and
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get as much separation as possible.
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And that includes mortgages.
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So this niche matters even more now.
13:02
Divorce is evergreen in the sense that every year there are 40% to 50% of marriages that
13:07
are not going to continue someone's filing for divorce.
13:11
But given the current challenges, the one difference between 2008, 2009 and now people
13:16
have equity, according to Harvard and Core Logic.
13:20
They've been confirming America is four times more likely to be equity positive if not
13:25
equity rich.
13:26
So does that mean when they divorce, they can afford new loan origination.
13:31
When they divorce, they can pay their lawyer out of house equity and they can afford to
13:36
right size.
13:37
They may not be able to afford the marital house.
13:41
And that's why we've always taught in the order of due diligence when you're going through
13:46
a divorce and you have real property with secured debt.
13:51
The first step always is mortgage.
13:53
So the difference between 2007 and 2008 and I should say, and right now, right now,
13:59
the equity positive makes all the difference.
14:02
So this niche always matters.
14:05
It matters even more right now because it's one of the few segments in the real estate market
14:10
that is not reduced by the mortgage rates.
14:15
Well, let's then talk about, I want to take it from the beginning.
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Okay, let's say somebody's decided to get a divorce, right?
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And I don't know if you have any data on this.
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You know, somebody gets online and Googles, right?
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You know, divorce me, whatever.
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There's different options other than attorney for divorce, correct?
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So how you go through the divorce every, but if your marriage is legally recognized
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by the state, the state has to dissolve your marriage.
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And so we've had changes in the United States Supreme Court and it used to be civilly recognized
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relationships that are now actually legal marriages.
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So everyone who has a legally recognized marriage, you have to start in court and end
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in court.
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The difference is what do you do in the middle?
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You have to start in court.
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You have to end in court, but you can resolve all of your issues outside of court.
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And that would be mediation.
15:05
Right.
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Mediation is very common, especially regarding real real estate.
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It's very common.
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You don't have to bring a lawyer.
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So mediation is common and the least expensive option doesn't mean it's protects you.
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You can get divorced, but it doesn't mean you actually have all of your legal and financial
15:24
and tax information before you start to make binding decisions at that mediation, but
15:29
that is common in divorce regarding the house.
15:31
They usually mediate it.
15:33
And so what degree are these mediators educated and understand the nuances of real estate
15:39
and divorce?
15:41
I've taken state mediation training.
15:44
So mediators are not separately licensed.
15:47
You have in order to be court appointed, a court appointed mediator, you have to take
15:51
the state approved class.
15:53
Otherwise, anybody can be a mediator.
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So a husband and wife divorce and can choose any person to be their mediator.
15:59
Most people look at the state list to see who has been trained officially in the state's
16:05
program.
16:06
So I've taken that training.
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I'm an Illinois lawyer, but I teach at a university in Tennessee.
16:11
So I've taken the Tennessee Rule 31 mediator training.
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And so mediation training is 40 hours of negotiation and dispute resolution and six hours of
16:24
family law.
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And it tells you almost nothing about the real estate and even less than that about the mortgage.
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So mediators are absolutely not trained in one of the most significant assets.
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This divorcing family needs to deal with.
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Because if they have an asset, they probably have a house, and that may be the most significant
16:43
asset.
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Hopefully it has equity.
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It probably does have equity, but it may also have significant debt and tax consequences.
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And so it's a very complicated asset that isn't usually handled fully because people want
16:57
to get the process over with.
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And frankly, there are so many other issues in divorce, but we know as real estate related
17:03
professionals and legal professionals, that if you mess up your house and the finances
17:09
and the legal issues surrounding it, it is a significant problem for years, if not a decade
17:14
after your divorce.
17:16
Hmm.
17:17
Okay.
17:18
So starting with where I entered that conversation, you know, we're a couple.
17:21
We want to get a divorce.
17:22
We look at our options.
17:23
Do you have any data or insights on a lot of thoughts thrown through my head is I'm going
17:28
to assume that the more quote well off, you know, affluent higher asset.
17:33
Higher asset.
17:34
Thank you.
17:35
You got it.
17:36
It's an easier way of communicating that concept.
17:40
The ones with a higher assets tend to not go the mediator route and go the attorney route.
17:46
They do both.
17:47
They do both.
17:48
You can bring attorneys to a mediation.
17:50
And that may be a good thing or that may actually somewhat interfere with the negotiation
17:56
portion and mediators have tools to deal with that called shuttle diplomacy.
18:01
When you have a lawyer, you're still going to mediate the house because most people,
18:06
you know, for example, if one spouse has to keep the house for the children, they've
18:09
already decided the house issue.
18:11
She's going to keep it.
18:13
And most people who agreed to keep the house agreed to refinance the house.
18:17
Do we know if she qualifies?
18:19
Do we know what's needed to help her qualify?
18:22
That's where the gaps start.
18:23
There are more than that, but that's the most obvious gap.
18:26
Right.
18:27
And it's a common gap in every state.
18:28
So even a higher asset divorce, how do I know any of this?
18:32
Because I am a research nerd.
18:35
I am a legal scholar.
18:36
And I have researched all of these issues in over 16 states over the past decade plus.
18:44
So I've looked at what people sue about after divorce after it's all gone wrong because
18:49
property division's permanent.
18:51
So then the rivers initiating that post divorce litigation is going to lose.
18:55
Most of the time it's going to lose.
18:57
So they have to be very, very upset to even file this unlikely to succeed post divorce
19:03
action to try and get some financial relief or a mistake that was made usually because
19:08
they didn't have enough information beforehand.
19:11
Well, and another consideration in today's world, as you alluded to in Wendy and you and
19:16
I talked about this the other day on a conversation is you just mentioned Professor Murray, you
19:20
know, if the house spouse, as we like to say, let's assume that's the woman in this
19:24
case, is going to keep the house because of the kids, et cetera.
19:27
You mentioned, you know, can she even qualify?
19:31
That's a bigger hurdle today with the increased interest rates, especially if they like take
19:36
cash out of the house or something like that to do some separation or distribution of assets.
19:41
So that's absolutely the difference.
19:43
So it was always a problem even before rates increased, even before the current rate increase.
19:50
And now that we have higher house valuation, in order to equalize, in order to keep the
19:56
house and pay him his equity, she is cashing out probably because the house is where all
20:02
the equity is.
20:04
So now she's going to pay a higher interest rate and you know, how much more, you know,
20:07
is that 25% more expensive this year than it was last year or more and cashing out.
20:14
So she's increasing the debt on the house that it's a, it's a double whammy.
20:19
It's not just a higher interest rate.
20:21
She's cashing out creating more debt.
20:24
The difficulty not to interrupt, but the difficulty is, is if that spouse hasn't been employed
20:27
or working and now they're trying to qualify for this new loan, that becomes an extra consideration,
20:32
you know, and difficult.
20:34
Many people rely on support as income to refinance as part of a divorce.
20:41
And we know if it took two incomes to purchase the house in the first place, one income alone
20:46
isn't going to work and if it is a stay at home spouse, support alone probably is not
20:51
going to work, which means the only other option is to sell the house.
20:54
And that sounds like that's a bad thing for the lender, but it's not because now you
20:57
have two adults for a right size residents new loan origination.
21:02
And that actually gives us inventory, which is the whole purpose of the economy.
21:07
We need to transact.
21:09
So divorce real estate handle correctly can actually increase inventory the right way so
21:16
that we get things going again, you know, instead of the stagnation of the only houses available
21:21
or the Mac mansions and right, because we know there are houses available in the higher
21:26
price ranges.
21:27
Well, and of course, I know you know this, but for the listeners, don't forget the dotted
21:31
line to if the house must be sold for the reasons we mentioned or otherwise, then that
21:35
creates a referral opportunity for you to your referral partners, your real estate agents.
21:41
And that's what we're going to talk about here too.
21:42
So that's why divorce this house.com when he was selling I have been teaching not just
21:49
real estate licensees, but also mortgage professionals separately, but how to work together, because
21:55
that combination is incredibly powerful.
21:58
So even in the current economic climate, the current mortgage climate, mortgage professionals
22:04
should be thinking about their reverse referrals to high producing successful real estate agents.
22:11
You work well with them now, you're laying the groundwork for continued relationships
22:16
even when interest rates are more favorable.
22:19
Absolutely.
22:20
Well, let's pivot for a moment when we definitely want to hear from you.
22:24
You have a lot to contribute if you want to tackle this question, but this is the one
22:28
that I just thought of is oftentimes when I've discussed divorce specialty within mortgage,
22:34
some people being that they're unfamiliar with it, they have some already existing preconceived
22:40
notions about the term messy, I don't know if I want to get into that.
22:47
Can you speak to any of that perhaps?
22:49
Absolutely.
22:50
Actually, and I agree with them.
22:52
And if you interview lawyers and of course the divorce this house has no trouble getting
22:57
in touch with lawyers and talking to them, the typical mortgage marketing does not connect
23:06
with lawyers because it's very self-serving.
23:09
And a lawyer has a fiduciary duty to put the client first.
23:14
And plus lawyers don't ever want to make a referral that could be a client complaint.
23:21
So they're very, very cautious.
23:22
So how can you as a mortgage lender make yourself so valuable to the lawyer and the lawyer's
23:29
client that they would want to introduce you to their client?
23:33
And this is exactly what divorce this house does.
23:36
We literally teach, Professor Murray, teaches her mortgage lenders exactly how to work at
23:44
the beginning of the divorce with the enhanced house due diligence as part of discovery preparing
23:50
the client for mediation.
23:52
And the best part about this is we don't touch the mortgage process.
23:56
Whatever your mortgage requirements are for refinance and new loan origination, again,
24:03
the clients are not rate sensitive, neither is the lawyer.
24:06
The lawyer wants the best result for their client.
24:10
And when you are taught to assist the lawyer and the lawyer's client as part of discovery
24:18
with something that Professor Murray named divorce mortgage guidance, the lawyer, the mediator,
24:25
if their financial professionals involved, and the paralegals really appreciate the fact
24:32
that the mortgage lender is in a position to streamline all the house information and
24:37
the secured joint debt, and bring this all together for informed decision making.
24:44
At the beginning of the divorce, I call it the horizon market because my husband and
24:48
I were in advertising and there's no better market to be in.
24:51
And the horizon market is when it dawns on the client, they need your services and they
24:57
already know you like you and trust you.
25:00
And if 20% of divorce is rational thinking and 80% is emotional, when do you think the
25:08
rational thinking takes place at the beginning of the divorce?
25:12
They don't even dislike their lawyer yet.
25:14
They've just hired their lawyer, you know, give them time in a couple of weeks.
25:19
But everybody's, you know, calm thinking, okay, I'm going to listen to my lawyer and the
25:25
lawyer starts asking the client for information, it's called discovery.
25:30
And you have to come up with it.
25:32
And this is where the mortgage lenders are trained by divorce this house and professor
25:36
Murray to know exactly what to do.
25:38
It is a system.
25:40
And instead of one and done and starting over and running around and trying to find another
25:44
client, I call it rinse and repeat.
25:47
Because this system is set up and we have divorces with 17 properties, all income producing.
25:55
And so they're being refinanced from two names to single names.
26:00
We had another in, that was in Knoxville, we had another divorce, 12 properties.
26:05
Most of them are refinanced, some were sold.
26:08
The mortgage lender is essential in the decision making process.
26:12
So just imagine, you are helping keep a client calm and organized.
26:18
What is that to the law firm, a huge value.
26:22
And then we also teach our mortgage lenders exactly how to present themselves.
26:27
You know, everyone's always saying, oh, should I create brochures, should I, should I
26:31
cold call, you know, how can I prove my value?
26:35
Well, again, you're not going to be talking about your mortgage process, you're going
26:39
to be talking that you are a divorce mortgage specialist, RCSD designee.
26:46
Professor Murray designates our mortgage lenders.
26:49
You don't need to be certified, a CPA is certified public accountant, right?
26:55
Our training is to designate you with her system.
27:00
And you refer to her that you were trained by Professor Kelly Murray.
27:03
And she has degrees from Stanford University and Harvard Law School.
27:07
And Harvard Law School is the number one law school in the world.
27:11
So any lawyer that you're presenting to is going to be very curious to hear exactly
27:16
what Professor Murray taught you.
27:18
Is that part of the dialogue that you would have within the journey?
27:23
It is.
27:24
We have, you have 15 minutes with a lawyer.
27:28
And I'll just, that's the takeaway.
27:30
So anyone contacting a lawyer, number one, you have to bring value and number two, 15
27:35
minutes or less.
27:36
One of my most successful conversations in chambers with a judge, I asked for 15 minutes,
27:41
I finished in seven minutes, and the judge loved it, that I was early.
27:47
So what are you going to say in your 15 minutes?
27:49
We teach you that or you can fumble around.
27:52
And if you do it wrong, the other thing with lawyers, if you do it wrong, it's next.
27:57
You cannot go back to that lawyer.
27:59
So we have mortgage professionals who contact Wendy Whistle.
28:03
It's on our website if you want a call, a training call or an inquiry call with her.
28:11
It's on her calendar.
28:12
And we've had mortgage professionals trained by others who've said, oh, I, I struck out
28:16
with every lawyer in my town, how can you help me with that?
28:19
And our answer is we can't.
28:21
So my recommendation is don't start calling every lawyer until you know what you're going
28:26
to say and you know it's going to work.
28:28
So 15 minutes, you need to know what to say in the correct order to bring value.
28:34
What value are you bringing?
28:35
Otherwise, don't bother because you're burning bridges, that's an important takeaway.
28:42
People don't realize that.
28:43
So when they read inaccurate advice, go take a lawyer to lunch.
28:46
I saw this recently.
28:47
Go take a lawyer to lunch.
28:49
No, don't do that.
28:50
What?
28:51
Is there going to be no or because why why not?
28:56
All right, how long is this lunch going to be?
28:58
The lawyer's distracted with either it's 15 minutes, you don't bring value.
29:03
I don't think it's just going to be 15 minutes.
29:04
But if you don't bring value, that lawyer thinks she knows everything you have to say
29:09
and she will not meet with you again, and she will not refer you clients.
29:12
So it is a very dangerous thing to do this wrong with a lawyer that really matters to you.
29:19
We teach you who to start practicing with, even on our system, you're not perfect.
29:23
You're first go, but we have a 15 minute presentation.
29:29
We make you memorize it.
29:30
We make you learn it.
29:31
So it sounds like you and not what to Professor Murray tell me to say next.
29:36
And we have you include local information to help make it matter even more to that lawyer.
29:42
And it works.
29:43
And the funny thing is, people title on themselves when they get their coaching with Wendy
29:47
Whistle, they'll tell her what they did wrong and every time they did something wrong
29:52
and it didn't work, it's because they didn't do what we told them to do in the first place.
29:56
So my recommendation is, it's much easier to just do it our way.
30:00
Just do try it our way because our way works.
30:02
And by the way, I can personally vouch for that as I said, I've gone through the training,
30:06
but I also had a number of our listeners go through the trainings over the years and
30:08
they've all reached out back to me and gave positive glowing reviews on your great coaching
30:14
Wendy.
30:15
However, so if you guys may or may not know in my podcast, I'd like to go deeper.
30:19
I'd like to like, you know, so how do they get the call?
30:22
Originally, like, how do I find attorneys, real estate attorneys, whoever?
30:26
And then how do I even get them being willing to a 10 minute conversation?
30:30
All right.
30:31
So this is the part that Wendy developed for us.
30:34
And that's why we've been such a great team for so many years.
30:36
Oh, and by the way, we are related.
30:38
So we are a woman owned business, we are family owned business and we have a lot of fun
30:42
helping a lot of people help a lot more people.
30:46
And so how do you find lawyers?
30:48
You don't co-call.
30:50
Don't do that.
30:51
Don't buy leads either.
30:52
You don't buy leads.
30:53
You don't email them.
30:54
You build your team.
30:56
And so Wendy's coaching teaches you how to build your team the right way.
31:00
And I asked how many lawyers do your team members know?
31:04
Even if your team members only know one lawyer, if you build your team the right way, you
31:08
have access to more than 10 lawyers right out of the gate.
31:12
So it's not a secret, but who is on your team and each of them has to bring value or
31:16
they can drag you down.
31:17
So we teach you how to build your team the right way and how to reach out to their lawyers.
31:23
And so now it's not a co-call because they knew the lawyer somehow.
31:26
Well, one example, I'm just going to continue to play this out for a moment.
31:29
Let's say my team doesn't know any quote, divorce attorneys, right?
31:32
Oh, no, you don't have, you're not limited to divorce attorneys.
31:35
Yeah.
31:36
I mean, real estate attorneys would be an obvious easy, you know, parallels like we're
31:39
all in real estate.
31:40
I'm sure you have access to real estate attorneys locally, your local board of realtors, whatever.
31:44
It shouldn't be too hard to find those people, right?
31:47
They want to work.
31:48
So real estate lawyers want more business, unlike other specializations for lawyers, real estate
31:54
lawyers.
31:55
If you just think about it, how do they make money?
31:58
Sometimes they're only the scrivener, sometimes they're only preparing documents or doing
32:02
something very technical for a title company.
32:06
They need a, they need a lot more at the top of their funnel than a divorce lawyer who gets
32:11
to take a case all, you know, two years of litigation.
32:15
So they're looking for referral relationships, real estate lawyers are looking for referral
32:19
relationships with mortgage professionals and with real estate licensees.
32:23
And we ask every class that we teach, do you already work with real estate lawyers?
32:28
And most say no, and I'm shocked.
32:31
And so that's a takeaway.
32:33
Everyone needs better relationships with real estate lawyers.
32:35
And just as you said, Jeff, a real estate lawyer is a lawyer and is a member of the local
32:41
bar and is networking with divorce lawyers.
32:45
We're bringing them a reason to get back in touch with divorce lawyers.
32:48
They already know like who know them, like them, and trust them.
32:53
And that is a fantastic segue into a lawyer meeting with our 15 minute structure, both
32:59
the structure and the substance.
33:01
I love it.
33:02
I'm the big believer in building the team.
33:06
And Wendy, I mean, that's all from Wendy and what I do is I literally coach you on
33:11
exactly the script that you're going to have with your title closing attorney or the
33:18
title company's recommendation to a real estate lawyer.
33:24
And that real estate lawyer takes the meeting because of the relationship with the title
33:30
company.
33:31
Or again, you already know the real estate attorney and you can't go to the real estate attorney
33:35
just as a mortgage lender.
33:36
In fact, I was just talking to two mortgage lenders in Atlanta, Georgia, and they're an
33:41
attorney closing state.
33:43
So they know closing attorneys.
33:45
And they told me that a closing attorney is working with as many mortgage lenders as
33:49
possible.
33:50
Why would the attorney single out one mortgage company over all the others that they're
33:55
working but to introduce to divorce lawyers?
33:58
But what we do is we have divorce mortgage guidance.
34:02
That is your point of difference that makes a difference.
34:05
And when you present your value to the real estate attorney and the attorney sees that this
34:11
will be incredibly helpful to the divorce process as well as more business.
34:18
That attorneys love to share tools, resources, and education with other attorneys.
34:24
And when you land your first real estate attorney who takes you to your first divorce attorney
34:29
referral, and you ask for one client to test divorce mortgage guidance on, you're only
34:34
going to ask for one client.
34:36
That surprises attorneys because everybody's, oh, when we love referrals, you know how
34:40
realtors have that on all their signage, you don't ask for lots of people.
34:44
You ask for one to test it on because you would want to respect the opinion of the lawyer
34:50
and you welcome the opinion of the client.
34:53
Did this help the client and it always does.
34:56
And then you get the second client and the third client and the fourth client and lawyer
35:00
number one will introduce you to lawyer number two.
35:03
But that this is another important thing Wendy teaches in her coaching.
35:07
Any lawyer you meet with, even a real estate lawyer, it's the same 50 minutes, don't waste
35:12
their time, don't ramble, don't don't troll for transactions as Wendy says, you have
35:16
to bring the value.
35:18
But do not right out of the gate, and this is straight from Wendy's coaching, do not
35:23
right out of the gate, ask to be introduced to other lawyers.
35:26
What does the lawyer you're speaking to think, you're just using me to get to other lawyers.
35:31
So you have to bring value to that lawyer, respect that lawyer as a resource, build that relationship
35:37
and then they will introduce you to other lawyers.
35:40
But we actually had that happen where someone we had trained, everything was going great
35:45
and then instead of following our step five at the end of our 15 minute system, they
35:52
went straight ahead and said, hey, why don't you introduce to other lawyers and crickets,
35:56
they never heard from her again.
35:59
You would be offended too if that happened.
36:01
So they just got caught up in the moment of success and messed it up with the call to action.
36:06
And they said, everything went so well.
36:08
We have the five essential agenda items, one, two, three, four, five, everybody on real
36:12
estate is good at it.
36:13
Fifty minutes, right.
36:14
My kindergartners were great at math because I loved math.
36:17
But I want my mortgage loan originators to understand that if you just take control
36:23
of the meeting and you're concise and you stick with the facts, lawyers and the documents
36:29
Professor Murray gives you two documents that you can share with the lawyer.
36:34
In many cases, they're not familiar with them.
36:36
And I love it.
36:37
Either way, if they're familiar with the documents that puts you at their level, you're coming
36:42
across as a colleague and not a salesperson or a vendor.
36:46
We elevate you by elevating your education with us and paying attention to the coaching
36:52
and being coachable.
36:54
You look like a colleague and the lawyers just like, hey, yeah, let's work together.
36:59
Or if you're surprising the lawyer, most lawyers love a pleasant surprise.
37:04
It's never their fault.
37:05
It's the client's fault.
37:07
And we teach you how to blame it on the client to save the lawyers.
37:11
Technically, though, yes.
37:12
So we teach you how to be tackled, but yes, that's another takeaway.
37:16
Never ever say to a lawyer, hey, lawyer, you're doing it wrong.
37:20
That lawyer will never work with you, even if that's a true statement because you just
37:25
trust us.
37:26
That is true.
37:27
What other tips or advice or coaching, do you think you would give mortgage professionals
37:33
considering this?
37:34
In the context I'm thinking of, like, I was going to ask the question, who is this not
37:37
right for?
37:40
I'm hearing it's like, this can't be just a way to make another commission.
37:43
You think that's going to fail?
37:45
Is that correct or?
37:47
Yes.
37:48
So that's an easier question to answer with real estate licensees.
37:52
Divorce real estate niche is not for brand new real estate licensees.
37:56
It's not the only times it works and when he tells plenty of people, you shouldn't take
38:01
our class because you're a brand new real estate licensee.
38:04
The only time the exception there is someone who's come into real estate or come into mortgage
38:09
with a separate business experience, separate worldliness and knowledge, that works.
38:15
That can work, but they have to build their team as a first step.
38:19
I don't know if we'll have Wendy weigh in on this.
38:22
I don't know if it's the same with a mortgage professional.
38:25
I don't know that we have as many brand new mortgage professionals pursuing the niche.
38:29
Wendy, what do you think?
38:30
Well, I've talked to so many people and the mortgage lenders who are the most successful
38:35
with this want to have a long-term referral relationship.
38:40
They're tired of coal calls running around, buying lunch.
38:45
They always tell me, I want to have purpose.
38:48
I want to stay in this business and I want to have something that is predictable and
38:53
positive and profitable and that is exactly what this niche is.
38:58
If you are looking to invest a little bit of time and a very fair tuition, the price
39:06
is not overwhelming.
39:07
Our training for mortgage professionals is six hours.
39:13
It has been longer in the past.
39:14
It could be longer, but you don't need that to get going.
39:18
That's why we're not a certification.
39:20
You don't need to be certified.
39:22
You need to know, you need to understand what goes wrong in divorce mortgage, why it matters
39:27
and when it matters.
39:28
That's what you need to learn.
39:29
I teach you that in six hours.
39:32
Our training is three consecutive days, two hours each day, usually in the afternoon.
39:37
Once a month, we have a Pacific class.
39:39
We are the mortgage ticket early in the morning.
39:42
If the afternoon doesn't work for you, you would sign up for the morning.
39:45
The other piece is Wendy's coaching.
39:49
Those two and you're often running and you don't have to be certified, you don't have
39:54
to be an expert in those.
39:56
Saying those things to a lawyer can actually work against you and that's why we've structured
40:00
the system the way it is.
40:02
You don't over promise a lawyer because a lawyer is going to say to you, how long was that
40:05
certification?
40:06
Who, who, who certified you?
40:09
Now I have degrees from Stanford and Harvard Law School and I am not certifying you because
40:14
I would make you go through a semester's worth of work with multiple tests and a final
40:17
exam before I would certify you.
40:20
I'm on the faculty of a top 20 law school and I'm not certifying you because you don't
40:24
need to be certified.
40:25
If you say to a lawyer, I'm designated, I took the training with Professor Murray, she's
40:29
degrees from Stanford and Harvard Law School.
40:31
We teach you to say that and guess what happens?
40:33
You have five minutes of the lawyer paying attention, wondering what you're going to say
40:37
next.
40:38
Yeah.
40:39
That's the opener.
40:40
That's the thing right there.
40:41
There's that and their resistance pauses like, okay, tell me more.
40:45
They assume you learned something and that would be a correct assumption.
40:49
You did.
40:51
Something useful and you're not crowding the lawyer.
40:55
Lawyers want to be the only expert.
40:57
If you come across, I'm an expert and then what does the lawyer think?
41:02
They're looking at you like, wait a minute, then what does that make me?
41:06
Also expert is a loaded temporal lawyer.
41:08
An expert is someone who gets on the stand and goes through a voir deer to be confirmed
41:14
as providing information beyond common knowledge of a jury.
41:20
Can you tell yourself an expert to a lawyer is never a good idea?
41:23
Can you take a moment then and just briefly articulate the difference between your designation
41:29
and other certifications that we know that are in the industry?
41:32
Well, I will say this, a certification in general, regardless of who offers it, is not
41:39
needed to work well with lawyers because of what we've, the first part is what we've
41:44
just discussed.
41:45
The lawyer is going to ask you who certified you, who is this certification over here?
41:52
So I actually have the credentials to certify real estate licenses and mortgage and I don't
41:58
for very specific reasons.
42:00
I could make a longer class, I could charge a lot more money and make you certified and
42:05
you wouldn't need it because you still only have 15 minutes with that lawyer.
42:10
We help you not over promise so that you can over deliver in value, you're designated.
42:16
The other thing we do is focus on, with mortgage professionals, we keep you within the scope
42:21
of your license, your NMLS number, which is reflects that you are state licensed.
42:27
We reframe what you are allowed to do to show the value of what you bring to a lawyer.
42:32
We don't give you other things to do.
42:35
We don't teach you how to encroach as when he says, crowd the lawyer.
42:40
You cannot give tax advice.
42:42
You cannot give legal advice.
42:43
I teach you things you need to be aware of but I also teach you not to intervene at those
42:50
levels and so in terms of the other offerings, I don't know and haven't compared substantively
42:56
but I do know that I caution anyone on thinking the word certified or the word expert is somehow
43:04
going to make the lawyer like you more.
43:06
It's actually a negative from the lawyer's perspective because they're going to ask who
43:10
trained you?
43:12
Who is the certification program and if that person doesn't have at least the education
43:17
of the lawyer, what is the lawyer, I'll just leave you to answer that for yourself.
43:21
What do you think the lawyer thinks when you look at the education level of the person
43:25
who purported to certify you?
43:27
I have no lawyer has a law degree better than mine.
43:31
They may have a degree equal to mine but they don't have a law degree better and I'm on
43:35
the faculty of a top 20 law school since 2005.
43:39
So I actually teach people how to be lawyers and give grades and all that.
43:45
So we could certify and we have chosen not to because it's not needed that would take
43:49
longer cost more money.
43:51
We are giving you what you need to get started because that's what you need to do.
43:55
You need to know how to get started and you need to know what to say to a lawyer.
43:59
That all boils down to that 15 minutes.
44:01
Right.
44:02
Exactly.
44:03
Excellent answer.
44:04
Okay.
44:05
Just a couple of minutes left here.
44:07
I'm looking at my notes.
44:08
See if there's a couple other questions I wanted to get out real estate.
44:11
We covered a lot of great ground.
44:12
Any, any, you know, what we're going to talk about for those that are listening.
44:14
If you want to take the next step, you guys do have obviously a website and a course.
44:19
We'll put a link to the show notes.
44:21
The website address though is mmi.divorcethishouse.com, I believe I got that right.
44:27
That's correct.
44:28
Yep.
44:29
MMI.divorcethishouse.com.
44:30
Like I said, guys, I've known, you know, when the professor Murray for five plus years,
44:34
a bunch of loan officers have gone through this and they've been on the podcast.
44:37
Actually, one of the other episodes we did, we had one of our successful students on
44:40
there talking about how great it was going.
44:43
And then Wendy, I love to hear it.
44:45
Maybe let's close out on this.
44:46
I know you've worked closely with a lot of mortgage professionals coaching them.
44:50
Any particular case study, I think of Graham or any other particular case studies that
44:55
come to mind of Rick fast that you want to entice the listener with.
45:00
Well, actually next week, professor Murray is flying to Phoenix, Arizona.
45:06
And we have a mortgage lender who took the training, I think in June of this year.
45:11
And he's working with eight divorce lawyers.
45:15
And he has about 25 realtors in the class that professor Murray will be teaching.
45:20
So let me just interrupt.
45:21
Let me just interrupt on this.
45:22
He was trained just a few months ago.
45:25
He lands divorce lawyers.
45:28
How valuable is he to real estate licensees?
45:31
He all by himself has put together a class of 25 real estate licensees where he'll be the
45:37
only lender in the front of the room there to help them land their divorce lawyers.
45:42
How powerful is that 100% that's why I have you guys here because I'm always talking about
45:48
how do we add value?
45:49
How do we become the pre-eminent lender in our community?
45:51
And now as we kicked off this call with now with the market challenges we have, where's
45:56
the business?
45:57
The business is coming from those that have to sell or re-fi, right?
46:01
That's where it is right now.
46:02
So this is why this makes so much sense.
46:03
Wendy back to you.
46:05
Well, Kelly, tell them about the podcast for lawyers.
46:10
We have one more takeaway.
46:12
And because everybody needs value right now and Jeff, your podcast has been so successful
46:16
because you give content and valuable takeaways just from the podcast episode itself.
46:21
And we've always believed in that as well.
46:24
We are launching November 1st, 2022, a podcast called de-risking mediation.
46:30
And so you can reach that podcast de-riskingmediation.com or de-risk-adr.com.
46:38
That is a resource for any mortgage professional who needs a reason to get in touch with lawyer.
46:44
If one of your takeaways is you should not just contact a lawyer or a mediator.
46:47
You need a reason to bring value.
46:50
This podcast will bring that value.
46:53
So what we're doing is taking, instead of building a full length continuing legal education
46:58
course, we're taking snippets of content that I teach first, CLE hours to lawyers, and
47:05
giving the lawyers the information they need to avoid mistakes that can derail a mediation
47:11
that end up getting litigated after mediation, which is the opposite of what you want.
47:15
So we're going to focus this podcast on conversations about mediation mishaps and then actually
47:22
litigated mediation mistakes.
47:25
That's the new's lawyers need.
47:27
Our episodes are going to be crisp because I remember I told you you need to bring value
47:31
and you need to keep it short for lawyers.
47:33
And so we're so excited to launch this as a resource, but it's also something for you
47:38
to reach out to the lawyers and the mediators that you know and financial professionals
47:42
to say to them, hey, have you checked out de-risking mediation?
47:46
If you give you a substantive reason to reach out to them to be your face awareness and
47:50
your brand awareness to that professional.
47:53
I love that.
47:54
We'll make sure we put the link to that in the show notes as well.
47:57
All right.
47:58
So lastly, I know there's some people listening who want to take the next step as there always
48:02
is.
48:03
But once again, the link will be in the show notes, but it is mmi.devours this house.com.
48:07
Wow.
48:08
This is a lot.
48:10
I feel like every time I talk to you guys, I get educated, but also excited at the opportunity
48:13
I wish I was originating again.
48:14
So I could go do this.
48:17
And you can have a I just want to say you can speak with Wendy before you register for
48:21
the class.
48:22
Absolutely.
48:23
So we'll make sure that when you go to mmi.devours this house.com, we'll have her
48:27
calendar there.
48:28
You can take out, you can look and see what's available and have a 20 minute call with
48:32
Wendy.
48:33
If you have specific questions, we would prefer you do that before just signing up.
48:37
So I recommend everybody.
48:39
You should really take advantage of Wendy's expertise because she really, you know, if it
48:43
takes 10,000 hours to become an expert, she's well over 10,000 hours.
48:48
And I still don't call myself an expert.
48:50
You don't need to just be good at what you do and be sincere.
48:54
There you go.
48:55
Be sincere.
48:56
And want to sincerely solve problems as well.
48:58
Exactly.
48:59
That's what I preach.
49:00
All right, ladies, it's been a pleasure.
49:01
I'm grateful for the opportunity.
49:03
Thank you for bringing your message that everyone needs to hear and take action on today.
49:07
Listeners, you know what to do if you like what you heard.
49:09
Hey, check the link in the show notes mmi.devours this house.com.
49:13
And we'll see you on the next one.
49:14
Thanks for being here.
49:15
Bye.
49:26
Hey, guys, what's up real quick?
49:45
You've heard about the mortgage marketing pro membership before and I just want to quickly
49:49
remind you if that you're in a place in your business where you simply need more purchased
49:53
loans.
49:54
You need to fill your pipeline with purchase business.
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Let's just face it, agents are still a solid pillar of business and sources of purchase
50:01
business for you.
50:02
Well, good news.
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50:07
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50:59
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51:23
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