Latest / Founder Talk with Alex Sheridan / The Unwritten Rules That Will Get Your Product Into Walmart: A Board-Game Publisher’s Playbook (ft. Joe Barron)

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The Unwritten Rules That Will Get Your Product Into Walmart: A Board-Game Publisher’s Playbook (ft. Joe Barron) · Founder Talk with Alex Sheridan

• 0:00
  Joe Baron, founder of Gray Matters Games.
• 0:02
  Welcome to the founder Talk podcast, man Cheers.
• 0:04
  Cheers, buddy. I'm this is a different one.
• 0:07
  I'm not going to lie, and I'm excited about this.
• 0:09
  It's very your business is very unconventional compared to what
• 0:11
  we've had in the past and and unique and so excited to dive
• 0:15
  in. Would you mind just giving the
• 0:17
  audience a little bit of context in terms of what you actually
• 0:20
  do, what your company does? Yeah, we design and publish
• 0:24
  family and adult party games. We're on our 13th game called
• 0:28
  Cross the Line and we've made it into over 10,000 stores
• 0:32
  worldwide. Wow.
• 0:34
  OK, so let's maybe break a couple of these down.
• 0:36
  Give me the high level of like here.
• 0:38
  We got a few of them in front. If you're watching on video, you
• 0:39
  can see these. We've got the game of Wolf.
• 0:43
  Choose your pack wisely. Give me a quick rundown on what
• 0:45
  this one is. So this was inspired by my
• 0:47
  favorite golf game, the Game of Wolf, where you pick your
• 0:51
  partner based on their tee shot. If everyone hits a bad tee shot,
• 0:55
  you can go lone wolf and try to get double the points.
• 0:58
  Usually you're betting money in golf.
• 1:00
  So I put that to trivia. So you see the subject of the
• 1:04
  trivia and if you know you're the wolf and you get NFL
• 1:08
  quarterbacks, maybe you pick me 'cause you know I like sports.
• 1:11
  Or you could go lone wolf against everybody at the table
• 1:14
  and try to get double the points in the game.
• 1:17
  So it's it's really a fun like multi generational trivia game
• 1:21
  because maybe grandpa gets Disney princesses and he picks
• 1:25
  his granddaughter as his teammate.
• 1:26
  So and and the team's always changed.
• 1:28
  So it's a really fun spin on trivia.
• 1:31
  That's cool. Yeah.
• 1:32
  This has four to 12/4 to 12 players and then 14 and up.
• 1:35
  Yeah. So it's 14 and up because
• 1:37
  there's some no nothing. Inappropriate just you know, a
• 1:44
  lot of common knowledge kind of things, but you know you do need
• 1:47
  a little bit more life experience to answer them
• 1:49
  they're. Getting their old friends, Yeah,
• 1:52
  unless they get the Disney princesses or something, the
• 1:53
  Disney movies or something like that.
• 1:55
  But yeah. OK.
• 1:56
  And then what about the donut challenge?
• 1:57
  That reminds me of the K cups. Yeah, Donut challenge is over
• 2:02
  100 different minute to win it challenges using all these
• 2:06
  components that come in that donut box.
• 2:09
  So there's a giant inflatable donut, there's two coffee cups,
• 2:12
  there's ping pong balls or the donut balls and then these
• 2:15
  squishy little toy Donuts. And you do all these fun like
• 2:20
  Bennett to win it challenges. So you know, you might have to
• 2:22
  hold the inflatable donut and someone has to throw the ping
• 2:26
  pong ball through the hole and then you score.
• 2:28
  So nice. It's all fun and silly
• 2:30
  challenges. Very cool and then cross the
• 2:32
  line is the newest 1? Is that out yet or no?
• 2:34
  No, that one comes out in May. We got to keep it a little under
• 2:37
  wraps, but it's going into two major retailers, one in May and
• 2:41
  then one this fall. And that is our most unique game
• 2:45
  we've ever made. It's a very like getting to know
• 2:48
  each other type game, but in a very creative and visual way.
• 2:53
  Your games are really well designed too, like the just the
• 2:56
  look of them kind of pops and it tells a little bit of a story.
• 2:59
  Do you design those two? We work with some very talented
• 3:02
  designers. The game of Wolf came from a
• 3:08
  person in Schaumburg named Idea Monster.
• 3:11
  Donut Challenge was mostly done by one of our graphic designers
• 3:14
  Elena Lyons and then Cross the Line was done completely by our
• 3:19
  now full time designer Sofia Riccardi.
• 3:23
  And how did you get into all this?
• 3:24
  Because I was reading before you, you know, you basically
• 3:27
  left corporate M and a strategy to build a gaming company.
• 3:31
  How does? How does that even happen?
• 3:33
  I came up with my first idea for a game on a family road trip
• 3:37
  through the Arizona desert with my my mom and my wife are very
• 3:41
  competitive and they're like come up with a game.
• 3:44
  And that set the premise for our first game called You Betcha.
• 3:48
  And we ended up kick starting that game and that was
• 3:51
  successful and gave me enough confidence to go out and give it
• 3:55
  a run. But had there had to be a
• 3:58
  process to this, right? Because like you have one game,
• 4:01
  you start it and then you decide I'm going to bring this to
• 4:04
  market because we're having fun playing it.
• 4:05
  Like how does that go from the idea creating the game to then
• 4:09
  we're going to start a business out of this?
• 4:11
  Yes, So what? We got very lucky.
• 4:14
  A Google search brought me to Luis Diaz, who did the design
• 4:19
  for Wolf and you betcha. And he was connected with a
• 4:23
  group. There was a store in the Chicago
• 4:27
  area called Marbles of the Brain store around the time when we
• 4:30
  were starting Gray Matters Games and actually went bankrupt and
• 4:34
  sold the spin master. And then we took some of the
• 4:37
  talent from from them, like their head of production, their
• 4:40
  head of marketing, and they sort of help us launch Gray Matters
• 4:44
  Games without them. We I didn't know what I was
• 4:48
  doing so. I was going to say, it's like a
• 4:50
  completely different business. Totally different.
• 4:53
  Especially from the M&A world, I mean, I guess, yeah, because
• 4:55
  you're dealing with more because you're selling this straight to
• 4:57
  consumers, you know, it's completely different.
• 5:00
  What? Wow.
• 5:02
  So did you have, did you use money that you guys had to fund
• 5:05
  the business? Did you have to raise money?
• 5:06
  Like how did you hire these people and come up with the
• 5:08
  money? Yeah, it's been mostly self
• 5:11
  funded. We did a small family and
• 5:12
  friends, but yeah, we've mostly bootstrapped.
• 5:18
  And then as you grow now we have, you know, a line of credit
• 5:21
  in place and things like that because, you know, it's a heavy
• 5:24
  inventory business. So the more you grow, you know,
• 5:27
  the, the more cash it takes. When you lend money or when you
• 5:30
  have family that are investors, does that tarnish the
• 5:34
  relationship at all or is there any friction there?
• 5:37
  I'm curious, no? OK, not not in our case.
• 5:40
  I'm sure it has another. Case well, I bring it up until I
• 5:43
  was doing dinner with another founder and, and I think it
• 5:46
  just, it just depends on the it's case by case and it's
• 5:48
  family member by family member, I'm sure.
• 5:51
  But he had mentioned that he lent it out.
• 5:52
  So I think it was an aunt and uncle and he was like 6 months
• 5:54
  down the road. They were asking where's the
• 5:56
  return on investment when we get, you know, maybe not the
• 5:59
  right investor, but I'm curious if that just causes any like
• 6:03
  friction between you guys. We haven't had any friction.
• 6:06
  I think we're very good at setting expectations and we
• 6:09
  communicate really well. And you know, for us, we've been
• 6:13
  saying the payoff is when we sell.
• 6:15
  Right, like. Because the more that we grow,
• 6:19
  the more cash it takes as we're growing.
• 6:22
  We don't want to be like paying, paying out dividends and then Oh
• 6:27
  no, now we need to borrow more money 8%.
• 6:29
  So I think we set that expectation up front and that we
• 6:35
  continue to grow and do well so. I think that's important to
• 6:39
  expect a clear expectations and, and, and getting people that are
• 6:43
  going to be along for the ride long term.
• 6:44
  I think if someone's like, I want to invest and then a year
• 6:46
  later get my money is like then just go invest in the S&P 500 or
• 6:49
  something or crypto or something else, because it's probably not
• 6:52
  going to be that type of thing. You're investing in a, you know,
• 6:54
  a start up at that point when you first started.
• 6:57
  And So what happened then? Let's let's play this out.
• 6:59
  I'm getting the next the first couple years.
• 7:00
  What were they like? You bring people over, you've
• 7:02
  got this new team. It's a brand new business.
• 7:04
  How are you coming up with the like the ideas for the games?
• 7:07
  Because you have the one, how do you get inspiration for the
• 7:09
  other ones? Yeah.
• 7:10
  So the first few were my own ideas and then we started
• 7:15
  reaching out into the inventor community.
• 7:17
  So, you know, probably four or five of our titles now have been
• 7:22
  from outside inventors. And actually the largest
• 7:27
  inventor conference every year is in Rosemont.
• 7:32
  Really. Yeah, so inventors from all over
• 7:34
  the world, publishers from all over the world come to the
• 7:38
  Embassy Suites in Rosemont, and it's literally like, you know,
• 7:41
  speed pitching. Yeah, wow, what?
• 7:45
  When you look at games like board games and any type of
• 7:47
  games like this, is there one that's in your mind, iconic?
• 7:50
  Is there one in your mind that you're like, man, this is like
• 7:53
  the Holy Grail of games? Or maybe a couple that you look
• 7:55
  for to inspiration where you're like, they just nailed
• 7:58
  everything about it? And then my second question will
• 7:59
  be what makes a great game? Yeah, growing up, mine was, I
• 8:03
  had two, Cranium was one and then the other one was
• 8:06
  categories. Both very simple to learn, but
• 8:10
  you can kind of show your different skills, especially
• 8:13
  Cranium there's you know, there's drawing, there's
• 8:17
  sculpting, there's impersonating things.
• 8:21
  So it's almost like you getting to to show off a little bit of
• 8:26
  your skills or your knowledge and.
• 8:29
  What makes a great game in your mind?
• 8:32
  I think it's creating memories that you'll you'll remember
• 8:35
  forever with your family. That's a good one.
• 8:39
  There's always, you know, there's got to be a little bit
• 8:43
  of fight, like a little bit of tension with your family too.
• 8:46
  Like, you always love those words.
• 8:48
  Like yeah, it's competitive, but it's also just like fun and
• 8:51
  light hearted. I agree.
• 8:53
  So it's either bringing out laughs or some really
• 8:55
  competitive thing where it came down to the very last turn or
• 8:59
  something like that that you're going to remember.
• 9:01
  Yeah, and how did these things get built?
• 9:04
  Like you have the idea you have a designer, but like the the
• 9:07
  what's in the actual box? Like where does that get made?
• 9:10
  Just get manufactured somewhere? Is it overseas?
• 9:12
  Like how does that whole process work?
• 9:14
  Yeah, every single piece, everything is designed the the
• 9:18
  bill of material. What what you know, the
• 9:21
  thickness of the card is what exact color that you're using.
• 9:26
  And we work with two manufacturers over in China and
• 9:31
  they're just outstanding. I just had dinner with them in
• 9:34
  in Nuremberg and they're everything is really good
• 9:38
  quality and they're just fantastic to work with.
• 9:41
  I feel like they just have that down there.
• 9:43
  They do the. Whole manufacturing, I mean,
• 9:45
  it's just unbelievable. Almost everything we touched
• 9:48
  came from China or was made or touched somewhere partly of
• 9:52
  China, right? So they seem like they've got it
• 9:55
  down What And then so, so design you guys come up with it
• 9:59
  manufacturer in China, ship it over here.
• 10:01
  Is there a certain like bulk, the volume that you have to buy?
• 10:04
  And especially when you first got started, was there a certain
• 10:07
  limits where you had to, hey, you got to buy a thousand of
• 10:09
  these, Otherwise it's just not even worth it?
• 10:10
  Yep, the word is Moq minimum order quantity.
• 10:15
  You know, ranges usually 1500 to 3000 units and.
• 10:19
  It's a lot of units when you're starting.
• 10:21
  Yeah. Fortunately we're to the point
• 10:23
  now where we have built out enough of our sales channels
• 10:28
  that I'm comfortable ordering like an entire 40 foot container
• 10:31
  of games, which is you know for across the line is like 13,000
• 10:35
  units. And it just helps you scale in
• 10:39
  the cost per game goes down as you can, you know, fill up a
• 10:44
  whole container. Yeah, right.
• 10:45
  Oh, for sure. Just driving your supply cost
• 10:47
  down and yeah, yeah, wow, is it pretty good profit margins.
• 10:51
  Yeah, the gross margins can be very good.
• 10:54
  You know, you can get 50% plus gross margins usually.
• 10:59
  My rule of thumb is if you want to you want to be at like 5,
• 11:03
  your MSRP should be at 5X your cost of goods.
• 11:07
  So if I'm selling this game for $25, I want to make it for five
• 11:12
  or under. Do you think there's a bigger
• 11:14
  reason that you got into games? Like does it mean something?
• 11:19
  Yeah, I loved playing games growing up.
• 11:22
  I mean, I grew up in the Upper Peninsula, Michigan, where
• 11:24
  there's long winters and there's a lot of family memories of
• 11:29
  going to my aunt and uncle's house.
• 11:31
  And they had this huge game cabinet, and we'd always go, you
• 11:35
  know, raid the cabinet and play together.
• 11:37
  And so there's a lot of good family memories.
• 11:40
  And yeah, I grew up playing a lot of chess, so.
• 11:46
  Do you think in a lot of cases adults sometimes forget to be
• 11:50
  forget to let their inner child play and to be playful, that
• 11:54
  sometimes this can bring it out? Yeah, that's the way we look at
• 11:57
  games is this is the medium for you to to play, right.
• 12:02
  So, but you got to you got to want to do you got to make time
• 12:06
  for it to go and and explore. And now there's, you know,
• 12:12
  there's there were so many of those like classic games from
• 12:14
  Hasbro that have come out that, you know, everybody knows it's a
• 12:17
  Jenga's trivial pursuits. But now there are so many
• 12:21
  options out there that you can get really specific on what you
• 12:26
  want to do and and how you want to play so.
• 12:30
  That's true. You know, I've noticed like when
• 12:31
  I go to the, you know, if I'm in Meijer, Walmart, wherever we go,
• 12:34
  you know, we're picking out a new game.
• 12:35
  Let's say it used to be like kind of the staples were there.
• 12:38
  You'd have like Monopoly and chess and all that.
• 12:40
  Like the, you know, the ones that you'd know category
• 12:42
  wherever, but now I you go and there's just like there's a lot
• 12:45
  more and there's unique ones. There's stuff like the game
• 12:48
  Wolf, you know, it's like, oh, I haven't heard of that.
• 12:50
  Who makes that? You know, like it seems like it
• 12:52
  has. Is that what you've seen too?
• 12:54
  It's just just the whole categories kind of expanded a
• 12:56
  little bit. Yeah, there's two sides that
• 12:59
  have grown a lot, the party game side.
• 13:01
  So, you know, if you look at the party game section, a lot of
• 13:04
  those companies are 15 years or younger, like Cards Against
• 13:08
  Humanity, Exploding Kittens, Relatable.
• 13:11
  They dominate that party game section.
• 13:14
  And then the hobby game area has grown a lot because because of
• 13:20
  COVID, a lot of people had to stay home.
• 13:22
  They look for other ways to entertain themselves, which is
• 13:25
  board games. And then there's conventions and
• 13:30
  there's more hobby game stores. So that that has exploded, you
• 13:36
  know, there's I think there's like 2000 games that are coming
• 13:39
  out a year now. So wow, you can get really neat
• 13:43
  into what you like. Yeah, I guess that's good,
• 13:45
  right? Everyone can find a game for
• 13:46
  them, You know, is there certain people that you found that just
• 13:49
  like just naturally prefer games over some people that don't?
• 13:52
  Cause I've, that's kind of been my experience.
• 13:54
  You get some people are like, let's play a game and other
• 13:55
  people are like, I don't play games.
• 13:56
  Yeah, I think you had to grow up with it.
• 13:58
  It was like something you just did with your family or your
• 14:01
  parents, and now you want to pass that on to your kids or the
• 14:06
  next generation? Yeah.
• 14:07
  It's like a cultural thing or traditions type thing, right?
• 14:11
  Yeah. What did you learn about
• 14:13
  consumer behavior building, you know, games like this?
• 14:17
  Like there had to been things that you noticed that you say
• 14:19
  people tend to like this or not like this or the way they think
• 14:22
  about entering into a game or instructions or any interesting
• 14:26
  takeaways there? I'm curious.
• 14:28
  Yeah, you be you have to be able to describe the game in like 10
• 14:32
  seconds. Why why would I like this?
• 14:35
  Why is this for me? And then even beyond the the
• 14:39
  consumer side, every retailer that looks at this game looks at
• 14:44
  it at a different way, right. So a hobby game store, they look
• 14:48
  at that they're like, and you tell them it's 2499.
• 14:51
  Wow, that's, that's a great price for 2499.
• 14:55
  You showed the Walmart buyer they're like, that's a little
• 14:56
  high. You showed the TJ Maxx buyer and
• 14:59
  they're like weighs about 2 lbs. That's about 1499, right?
• 15:04
  So. Dang.
• 15:05
  So there's like the consumer side and then like the B to B
• 15:09
  side that everyone looks at the same box in a very different
• 15:13
  way. Yeah.
• 15:15
  That's a good one on the I think, you know, I said the same
• 15:17
  thing in marketing. If you want to do good content
• 15:19
  marketing, you've got to be simple and you've got to
• 15:21
  intrigue the audience. Yes, people try to get too
• 15:24
  complex, they get too confusing. They just try to do too many,
• 15:27
  you know, they try to sound sophisticated and we're the most
• 15:30
  pioneering or engineering rather.
• 15:31
  And it's just like people don't know what the hell you do.
• 15:33
  They end up going, I read the whole damn page.
• 15:35
  I still don't know what you do, you know what I mean?
• 15:37
  So it's like if you get too cute in marketing, you can actually
• 15:39
  market yourself out of the industry.
• 15:42
  But then you also got to have something that does have
• 15:44
  intrigue in that little bit of cuteness to bring people in.
• 15:47
  You know, you got to have the wolf on there or the doughnut
• 15:49
  that people recognize from K cups or the cross the line, you
• 15:52
  know, So it's a little bit of a balance of being a little bit
• 15:55
  cute and and out-of-the-box, but then also making sure that it is
• 15:59
  very clear as to what it is in the gaming world.
• 16:02
  You know, sounds like just making sure people can
• 16:04
  understand what it is, because I think it's part of the the
• 16:07
  purchasing philosophy as they go.
• 16:09
  Do I get this game? And if I don't get this game,
• 16:11
  I'm not putting in my cart. And even if I get it, do I get
• 16:14
  it home? And then it's all of a sudden
• 16:16
  it's complex. I I thought it was more, I
• 16:18
  thought it was easier. It's difficult than we thought.
• 16:20
  We're not. We're spending 1520 minutes
• 16:22
  trying to understand what the damn thing is, and then it just
• 16:25
  gets thrown in the shelf and you never play.
• 16:27
  Yep. Is that right?
• 16:28
  Yeah, so many inventors and sales people focus on the
• 16:33
  gameplay instead of focusing on features and benefits of the
• 16:36
  game, right? So when you get into the weeds
• 16:40
  on the gameplay, right, people's eyes start to glaze over versus
• 16:44
  like, hey, you're going to have a ton of laughs, you're going to
• 16:46
  get to know each other, and you'll learn it in under 5
• 16:48
  minutes, OK? That's great marketing, right?
• 16:52
  Yeah, yeah, the same thing. If you're selling, you know, a
• 16:54
  different B to B service or a product, what is it going to do?
• 16:58
  What is it going to do for the actual customer and what's the
• 17:00
  experience that you're creating? What's the emotional type take
• 17:03
  away they're going to have? That's really what you're
• 17:05
  selling. You're not.
• 17:06
  Like you said earlier, you're not necessarily selling the
• 17:08
  game. You're selling an experience and
• 17:10
  memory that people can share with their families.
• 17:12
  That's ultimately what you're doing.
• 17:13
  Right. Yeah, yeah.
• 17:15
  And when I work with inventors, you know, they want to get
• 17:19
  directly into the gameplay. And I want to start with like,
• 17:21
  why is this? Why is someone going to buy this
• 17:23
  game? Yeah.
• 17:25
  Think about that first, and the gameplay kind of almost comes
• 17:29
  second. I mean, it's the gameplay's
• 17:31
  important, but at the end of the day, you got to sell the game,
• 17:34
  right? Exactly.
• 17:36
  Yeah. So you mentioned getting it into
• 17:38
  stores. How do you, what's the key to
• 17:39
  getting into these retail stores?
• 17:41
  Like, yeah, you mentioned TJ Maxx, Meyer, you know, these
• 17:44
  types of things. You're in thousands of stores.
• 17:47
  What was that process like and what are some of the things that
• 17:49
  helped you get in? Yeah.
• 17:51
  So all of the bigger stores have a buyer for that game section.
• 17:57
  So you really got to get to the buyer.
• 18:00
  You know, early days it was LinkedIn stocking, trying to get
• 18:04
  to the buyer or being at the trade shows and trying to get in
• 18:07
  front of the buyer mostly. Now we do that through our
• 18:11
  distributor, Asthma Day, which is the largest board game
• 18:15
  company in the world. So now my job is more setting
• 18:18
  them up for success when they get in front of the buyer.
• 18:21
  Interesting. Or, you know, if I'm at a show,
• 18:24
  maybe we'll do a joint pitch together.
• 18:26
  How did you develop that relationship?
• 18:28
  Because I think there's a lot of crossovers entrepreneurs
• 18:31
  listening to that now or it's not just like go try to get the
• 18:33
  next customer. Some of it is just strategic
• 18:35
  relationships. How did you how did you build
• 18:37
  that one? So the head of Asthma Day North
• 18:41
  America's name, Julian Sharp, we shared a beer garden together at
• 18:47
  the Chicago Toyne Game Fair probably 7 or 8 years ago and
• 18:52
  kept the relationship ever since.
• 18:53
  And then when she moved over to Asthma Day, we started talking
• 18:56
  about how we could work together.
• 18:58
  And now we're we've think we've been together over 2 years now
• 19:03
  with Asthma Day. So just get in front of people,
• 19:06
  you know? Getting in front of people,
• 19:07
  keeping good relationships, you know, I'd never look at a
• 19:12
  competitor is like this fierce rivalry.
• 19:15
  It's like, hey, we, how could we work together at some point,
• 19:18
  right? So always keeping those doors
• 19:20
  open right has been really helpful.
• 19:22
  Yeah, it's one of the reasons we do this podcast in person.
• 19:24
  It's just a different experience when you're sitting across from
• 19:27
  someone versus being on a screen.
• 19:29
  I was going to ask you that how do you feel about, you know,
• 19:32
  screen games like your, you know, the game on your
• 19:34
  smartphone, Xbox, PlayStation compared to these in person
• 19:38
  games that you guys create? You know, part of our mission is
• 19:43
  to get folks off of screens and. Is it that's part of your
• 19:48
  mission? Yeah, and it's cool and really
• 19:50
  interacting with each other in a different way.
• 19:54
  You know, I, I can see where maybe someone's across the
• 19:59
  country or, you know, we can't be together in person.
• 20:02
  So let's play a game interactively or on a screen.
• 20:06
  But you know, we, we've got, we both have kids, right?
• 20:10
  You know how often they're on screens and this is just another
• 20:14
  way to get them back and socializing.
• 20:16
  And you build so much, so many things you don't even think
• 20:21
  about when you're playing a game.
• 20:22
  Strategic thinking, spell, spell.
• 20:25
  It could be spelling reading. How to follow directions.
• 20:30
  So in the social aspect is just there's so many benefits that
• 20:35
  people don't even think about when they're playing a board
• 20:37
  game because they're just having fun.
• 20:38
  Yeah. So do you think too much screen
• 20:41
  time is harming us? Yes.
• 20:43
  I do too. Yeah.
• 20:45
  What you just said is spot on. Because I remember like when I
• 20:47
  look at my kids and they're on a screen or TV or whatever it is,
• 20:51
  it's almost like, and even myself or anybody, even adults,
• 20:54
  it's like we're zombies. Like we're just kind of just
• 20:56
  watch some of those kind of like, you know what I mean?
• 20:59
  Like they're just not even if they're playing a game, it's
• 21:01
  just kind of like, it's just like, they're almost like, it
• 21:04
  reminds me of what's the Matrix? We're like, they're plugged into
• 21:08
  the Matrix and it's just like, they're not even there, you
• 21:10
  know? And you're like, hey, and
• 21:11
  they're like, you know, like they're just completely out of
• 21:14
  it. Whereas if you play an actual
• 21:16
  game, like one of these that you guys build, you see people open
• 21:20
  up, you see them laugh, they're engaging, they're aware, they're
• 21:24
  thinking, they're smiling, they're they're just present.
• 21:28
  It's a completely different experience.
• 21:30
  Yeah. So do you have like game or
• 21:33
  screen time limits and that kind of stuff at your house?
• 21:35
  Are you pretty? What about yourself?
• 21:36
  Are you, Do you, are you conscious of it too?
• 21:37
  Do you pull out your phone and check stuff?
• 21:39
  Yeah, and I'd still need to get better, but I always just try to
• 21:43
  leave it out of the room, you know, when I'm, when I'm trying
• 21:46
  to focus and do focused work, just put it somewhere where you
• 21:49
  can't even pick it up because you know, when you hear the
• 21:51
  buzzer, right, you're, you know, you want to get that, that hit.
• 21:57
  That's what it is too. It's like I find sometimes I
• 21:59
  find myself and I'm trying to get better at it too.
• 22:02
  The out of the putting the smartphone out of your room I
• 22:04
  think is a great hack because if it's out of sight, it's a little
• 22:07
  bit harder to get to your and it kind of reminds you all right,
• 22:10
  it's out of the room for a reason.
• 22:11
  Like don't go to the other room and go get it, you know, leave
• 22:13
  it on the charge or whatever it is.
• 22:14
  But it is a challenge because there's you're kind of like
• 22:18
  picking up your smartphone and you're like, oh, what's the
• 22:20
  little next gem that I get? Is it a good e-mail?
• 22:23
  Is it social media, you know, posted well, is it my stocks are
• 22:27
  up? Is it, you know, you're just, I
• 22:28
  find myself just checking for that stuff.
• 22:30
  And then I have to remind myself, like, dude, what are you
• 22:32
  doing? Like go live life, enjoy your
• 22:35
  day, spend time with your loved ones or your clients or whoever,
• 22:38
  but just be present. And I think, man, that's like a
• 22:41
  superpower for entrepreneurs. I think it's focus is discipline
• 22:46
  and focus if you can true, because I think it like, you
• 22:48
  know, everyone has their same 24 hours in the day, as they say,
• 22:51
  and everyone you know, if you're if you're good, you get 678
• 22:54
  hours of sleep. You take care of your body,
• 22:56
  obviously, but then we all have that pocket of window to work,
• 22:59
  whatever that looks like for people.
• 23:01
  And my thought is you don't always need to work more.
• 23:03
  It's just are you squeezing every oz you can out of the
• 23:06
  time? And it doesn't mean working
• 23:08
  24/7. It means even with you, you're
• 23:10
  working your ass off and focus during the day.
• 23:12
  So when four or five o'clock hits, you can actually be
• 23:14
  present with your kids because you've been so focused and
• 23:17
  lasered in that you've knocked that shit out versus going into
• 23:21
  one thing and then you check LinkedIn, you're out now, you're
• 23:24
  doing that. Then you get an e-mail, you pop
• 23:26
  into there. That is something I'm really,
• 23:29
  really focused on for 2026 because I think that makes a
• 23:33
  massive difference. Yeah.
• 23:34
  And it's also just having that plan, right?
• 23:38
  So we do a strategic plan every year to start the year, so we
• 23:41
  know exactly what our goals are and then boom, we're hitting the
• 23:47
  ground running. I have it in front of me every
• 23:49
  day, so I'm staying focused on what's important.
• 23:53
  What about social media? Do you think social media has
• 23:55
  ruined society or do you think it's been a net positive?
• 23:59
  I wouldn't say a net positive. I think if you use it in the
• 24:02
  right way, it's OK. But if you're just like doom
• 24:06
  scrolling at night, it's like, you know, especially like the
• 24:10
  political environment, you can get so fired up and there's,
• 24:13
  there's not really much you can do about it, right?
• 24:16
  Like it's just getting you fired up and it's just wasting energy.
• 24:22
  That's it, man, I, I have a loved one.
• 24:25
  I won't say who they are 'cause they're the only one that in my
• 24:29
  life that are under this name. But she, she spends too much
• 24:34
  time, I think on Facebook getting fired up over political
• 24:37
  stuff. And I, and I say the same thing.
• 24:38
  I'm like, just just don't even do it.
• 24:41
  Like, what's the point? You know, like there's no, to
• 24:44
  your point, there's no, you're not going to convince people
• 24:45
  that are complete opposite viewpoints of view.
• 24:48
  And, and what's the point of even trying to online Like it
• 24:51
  just, it's just a drain. It's just an energy drain.
• 24:53
  You walk away and you feel like I that sucked the energy out of
• 24:56
  me. It was a waste of time.
• 24:58
  I could have done something way more productive or positive and
• 25:00
  there's no, absolutely no benefit.
• 25:03
  Yeah, but people go back to it. It's.
• 25:05
  Yeah, I think, I think if you bring it to like you're focused
• 25:08
  on building a community that can be beneficial.
• 25:13
  So to give you an example, we work with a ton of different
• 25:16
  influencers in the game industry.
• 25:18
  And I've now built out like great relationships, like where
• 25:21
  I even would call them friends, right.
• 25:23
  So when I was in Germany last week, I went out to dinner with
• 25:26
  Danielle Standring, who's an influencer that, you know, her
• 25:31
  first video is her chug chugging milk and playing games.
• 25:35
  And I was like, this is hilarious.
• 25:36
  Like I got to got to meet her. And so we've done so many things
• 25:40
  together now. So finding those relationships
• 25:45
  and cultivating community on social media is a great way to
• 25:49
  do it. Going and doom scrolling and
• 25:51
  just getting yourself fired up over, you know, political
• 25:56
  controversies is a waste of time.
• 25:59
  I agree, man. I agree.
• 26:01
  So many better uses of your time.
• 26:02
  So let's talk a little bit about marketing and sales, you know,
• 26:05
  because again, a lot of entrepreneurs, founders
• 26:06
  listening to the show, I always try to get insights from what
• 26:09
  are people doing from a marketing standpoint, from a
• 26:10
  sales standpoint that's helping them grow their company.
• 26:13
  You mentioned influencers. Is it worth it to work with
• 26:16
  influencers? Absolutely yes.
• 26:18
  And if so, what's the right approach there?
• 26:20
  So we like to have a base of influencers that we just have a
• 26:26
  great relationship with and we're going to work with them on
• 26:30
  every game because we just like their content, we like their, we
• 26:36
  like them as a person. And so we've built out, I would
• 26:41
  say, so, a few really core ones that we'll always work with.
• 26:45
  But we've got a list of maybe 20 to 30 that will, you know, kind
• 26:49
  of swap in and out. And you got to cast a wide net
• 26:54
  because you never know what the algorithm's going to do, right?
• 26:56
  This person's video could have 10,000 views this time, and next
• 27:00
  time it's 3,000,000. So when we go out with a game,
• 27:03
  we want to hit it hard right out of the gates with influencer
• 27:07
  marketing and try to get, you know, 20 to 30 videos out there
• 27:12
  and hope that like two or three hit really, really well.
• 27:16
  And what does success look like when you're working with the
• 27:18
  social media influencer? Like, how do you track?
• 27:21
  What do you track and how? Yeah, we're tracking, you know,
• 27:24
  views and comments, shares, all that good stuff.
• 27:28
  But then the easiest way to see it is in your sales reports on
• 27:33
  Amazon and then Target, right? Did it actually have like a
• 27:36
  sales impact? A lot of times then we take
• 27:40
  those influencer videos and then we'll convert them over to
• 27:44
  social media ads and Meta, like Meta ads.
• 27:47
  So then you're looking at click through rate.
• 27:49
  The, the difficult part is on the conversion when you're, when
• 27:52
  you're selling like through Target and Amazon, you can't get
• 27:56
  to the end conversion, right because Amazon and Target
• 27:59
  doesn't share that data. So you have to go more to like
• 28:02
  the click through and cost per click and stuff.
• 28:05
  So that's the one difficulty when you're not direct to
• 28:07
  consumer, you're not getting like the full, you know, funnel
• 28:13
  data. So how does that work as a
• 28:14
  vendor on Amazon? I'm curious about that.
• 28:16
  Like 'cause you, you don't get to really control, they kind of
• 28:18
  have control the ultimate back end, it sounds like.
• 28:21
  So what do you do? They just, you just put your QR,
• 28:24
  your barcode, whatever it is your product and they say, we're
• 28:27
  going, we're going to list it and if it sells, you got to send
• 28:29
  it to us. Or how does that whole process
• 28:30
  work? Yeah, they they have a whole
• 28:32
  back end where you basically set up your product and then you
• 28:36
  either have the option of being of fulfilling it, you send it in
• 28:40
  and Amazon fulfills it for you. You can fulfill it yourself
• 28:44
  through your own warehouse. What do you guys do?
• 28:47
  We typically send it into Amazon, so then it's FBA and
• 28:51
  then you know, that way it can be for Prime members too.
• 28:56
  But then the the third option is actually you can wholesale it to
• 29:02
  Amazon and then they sell it on your behalf.
• 29:06
  But you can you have no control over your pricing anymore.
• 29:09
  Oh. Geez.
• 29:09
  So that that's where we wanted to keep that control because all
• 29:14
  of a sudden they discount something and you upset the
• 29:18
  target buyer, right? Because they.
• 29:21
  Undercut the target. Price.
• 29:23
  Right. Yeah.
• 29:25
  So you're not able to track if what the videos that they did
• 29:29
  led to sales if you go through some of those big purchasers.
• 29:33
  Is that right? Because I'm mostly like the
• 29:35
  engagement, the click through rate, there's a lot of good
• 29:36
  signs like, you know, if a video blows up and then you have a
• 29:39
  bunch of sales like obviously could put two to two together.
• 29:41
  But is there, I was always curious, is there a direct
• 29:44
  attribution model where you can say, you know, 72 sales this
• 29:48
  week came from Michelle who's one of our influencers.
• 29:51
  Is that possible or no? Not if you're using meta ads
• 29:57
  that are directing it to like Target or Amazon.
• 29:59
  Now Amazon has their own. You can do Amazon ads and you
• 30:02
  can get all that data but leading it back to the
• 30:10
  influencer or no? The only one you could really do
• 30:13
  that on is like TikTok shop. OK.
• 30:15
  Do you guys sell in there too? We do.
• 30:17
  And you can really correlate if someone came because it's on the
• 30:20
  TikTok app. Yeah, but they're getting
• 30:22
  Commission, so you can, you know exactly how many they're right
• 30:25
  selling. Yeah.
• 30:27
  What's been your best channel for sales in terms of social
• 30:30
  media or even Amazon included? Like what's the number one if
• 30:34
  you had to rank the top 1-2 or three?
• 30:37
  Social media, I'd say Instagram. Yeah, interesting.
• 30:41
  For organic. For organic or or ads or both.
• 30:46
  For both. OK, yeah, when I say organic,
• 30:48
  just so the audience knows, I mean just posting it with no ad
• 30:51
  spend or anything like that. Just you have an account, the
• 30:53
  influencer post it on their normal page and you just see
• 30:56
  what happens. And it sounds like for you,
• 30:58
  which I think is a really good strategy, that the social media
• 31:01
  ads strategy is let's post organically first.
• 31:04
  Let's see if it does well with the audience.
• 31:06
  If it does, we do get a big hitter.
• 31:08
  What we know it works. That's our validation right
• 31:11
  there. So now we don't have to waste
• 31:12
  money, put it into something and hope it works, which is how kind
• 31:15
  of people ran ads like 10 plus years ago.
• 31:17
  It's just you put something together, a good creative, good
• 31:19
  copy, you put it out there, you spent money and you hope it
• 31:21
  works. Now we can see what works first,
• 31:24
  and then we just take whatever works and we put some gasoline
• 31:26
  behind it. Exactly right.
• 31:29
  So Instagram's number one, what would be #2 you'd say?
• 31:32
  I would say Tiktok in terms of the impressions that you're
• 31:35
  getting, 'cause they you can have a small following with an
• 31:38
  influencer, but they can have some big hits on videos.
• 31:42
  But you I think the conversion isn't as high on Tiktok as it is
• 31:46
  on Instagram. I think the Instagram father's
• 31:49
  been more trained to like, OK, I'm going to buy based on this
• 31:53
  versus the TikTok viewers more like I'm here for entertainment
• 31:57
  or for for news. But I see that starting to
• 32:00
  change a little bit now that TikTok shop is starting to grow.
• 32:04
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had dude, the founder of Dude
• 32:08
  Wipes, Sean Riley, on the show, and I know they're big into this
• 32:11
  is last year and they do a good amount of business on TikTok.
• 32:15
  TikTok and Amazon are the two big headers I'm sure the TikTok
• 32:18
  shop does quite well. Yeah.
• 32:21
  Is are social media influencers A potentially good option for
• 32:26
  any type of business? Like, if I wanted to bring
• 32:28
  people and obviously consumer goods it's great for and things
• 32:31
  like that, there are certain, like, niches where like, this
• 32:32
  makes sense. What about if I wanted to bring
• 32:36
  out an influencer to promote this podcast and if I was going
• 32:40
  to do that? What do you look for in a social
• 32:41
  media influencer? How do you know if they're good
• 32:43
  or not? Because maybe they have 100,000
• 32:44
  followers but they don't sell shit.
• 32:47
  Or maybe they have 50 or 20,000 followers and they sell to the
• 32:51
  roof because they actually have a bought in audience.
• 32:54
  How do you know? I think you have to find just
• 32:58
  content that really resonates, resonates with you and your
• 33:02
  business. There's some game influencers
• 33:06
  that might have a, you know, a huge following, but they just
• 33:09
  don't resonate with our brand or our business.
• 33:12
  And then it's just building that, building really a more
• 33:15
  long term relationship with that person.
• 33:17
  If you're looking at it as like a transactional thing, like, oh,
• 33:21
  I hope I get this ROI on this one video.
• 33:24
  That's not going to happen, right?
• 33:26
  You have to build something real that's going to sustain over
• 33:30
  time. So if I was in your shoes, I
• 33:32
  would say, hey, you know what, here's two or three people I'd
• 33:34
  really like to work with and I'm going to put the time in with
• 33:37
  them and let's build something together versus like, hey,
• 33:40
  here's here's, here's a script and $500.00 with this video.
• 33:45
  That's terrible. It's just not.
• 33:46
  Going to work. I 100% agree.
• 33:48
  I think the biggest mistake that companies make too with social
• 33:50
  media influencers is they try to have them do things that don't
• 33:53
  align with their values and their brand.
• 33:55
  And to what you just said, if you can find someone that really
• 33:58
  aligns where it seems like a natural fit.
• 34:00
  And I get hit up all the time for people like if you do the
• 34:02
  TikTok, are you and LinkedIn poster.
• 34:04
  And I'm like, I, I don't resonate with that.
• 34:06
  First of all, I don't, I'm not like an influencer.
• 34:08
  Secondly, I don't resonate with a lot of those products and
• 34:10
  services. But if there is something that
• 34:12
  I'm really, I use a lot and it's exciting to me and I believe in,
• 34:16
  well, then it's easier to do because it just fits my brand.
• 34:18
  It's not I'm Alex here and then I'm doing this with left field
• 34:21
  or right field product. That doesn't really make sense
• 34:23
  for what I normally talk about. I think the forced influencer
• 34:27
  videos is kind of what you're talking about that just don't
• 34:29
  really land. Yeah, yeah.
• 34:31
  I think a lot of the big brands will be like, here's this script
• 34:35
  and here's all like the exact talking points, and there's all
• 34:38
  these guardrails and it just takes away their creativity.
• 34:42
  Yeah, I'm like, here's our brand book.
• 34:44
  Here's the game. Go, go do your thing like I'm
• 34:48
  bringing you on because I trust what you do and I know that you
• 34:51
  know your audience better than I do.
• 34:53
  That's so brilliant, man. I really think so.
• 34:54
  Because yeah, you, you. What businesses have to remember
• 34:58
  is these are creators, like they're creative human beings.
• 35:01
  They're a painter, a musician, a social, that's all the same,
• 35:04
  just different mediums and formats.
• 35:07
  They want to be able to express themselves and the product and
• 35:09
  their the service, whatever it is, the way that they want to do
• 35:12
  it, whether that's a skit video or they're unboxing it or
• 35:15
  they're demonstrating it, drinking milk, you got to let
• 35:18
  them do them. And you're going to get the
• 35:19
  best, you're going to get the best content that way.
• 35:22
  Because if you're, I hate the four script stuff, dude, it's
• 35:24
  just, oh, nobody wants to read off that stuff.
• 35:28
  And usually the script sucks anyways, you know?
• 35:31
  Our our largest video, the person had 1200 followers maybe,
• 35:36
  and they ended up playing our game called Slip it In and they
• 35:39
  just played it in line at Disneyland.
• 35:41
  With Wow, that would have. Never said like yeah, that's a
• 35:44
  good idea and it had like 7 million views or something.
• 35:47
  Wow. When it comes to like how you
• 35:50
  format the pay structure and that type of stuff, do you look
• 35:54
  at like their reach, their follower count, that type of
• 35:57
  stuff? Is that kind of where they fit
• 35:58
  in, in terms of how much you would pay somebody?
• 36:00
  Yeah, usually I ask for like their stats and then their rate
• 36:04
  sheet. And if they're a seasoned
• 36:07
  influencer, they already have that stuff and they just send it
• 36:10
  over. And if we can find something
• 36:15
  reasonable, like where we can work together, then we'll do it.
• 36:18
  If, if it they want something astronomical, I won't even go
• 36:21
  back to, you know, they want 10 grand.
• 36:23
  I'm not going to go back and be like, hey, will you do this for
• 36:25
  1000 bucks? Right, right, right.
• 36:29
  I think when you work with enough, you just know, you know
• 36:32
  what the prices should be, what's reasonable, what happens
• 36:37
  with a lot of some of the larger influencers as they get in with
• 36:40
  these agencies and then their their prices go to, you know,
• 36:45
  10s of thousands of dollars for a video and there's just no way
• 36:48
  you're ever going to make your any ROI.
• 36:50
  Yeah. So.
• 36:52
  Yeah, I think it's like finding the the balance of like they've
• 36:55
  got enough of an engaged following where they can reach
• 36:58
  people and make an impact. But it's not not too big to
• 37:00
  where it's like, yeah, it'll cost you 10 grand for a video.
• 37:02
  It's like, Jesus, right. You know, I didn't think we'd
• 37:04
  ever can make that one. It's like almost impossible.
• 37:08
  Impossible. Wow.
• 37:09
  So you would say that social media influencers have been a
• 37:12
  they've been made a pretty big impact on your brand and product
• 37:15
  and sales and things like that. Do you guys do your own content
• 37:17
  and stuff like that? Do you try to kind of mimic what
• 37:19
  the influencers do internally? We've.
• 37:20
  Tried a little bit but it's it takes up a lot of time.
• 37:26
  It does, yeah. We're not good at it, so we
• 37:29
  leave it to the pros and focus on what we're good at.
• 37:32
  Yeah, Yeah. So going back to the last couple
• 37:35
  of years, I'm going to kind of go back now to a little bit more
• 37:37
  about your journey. I was just genuinely curious
• 37:39
  about 01 more thing I want to ask you about because this is
• 37:41
  all just like me being curious, honestly just being interested
• 37:44
  what from a sales perspective perspective, we talked about
• 37:47
  marketing. What have you learned from a
• 37:49
  sales perspective coming into these boardrooms and meeting
• 37:52
  with, you know, companies or buyers, distributors, whatever
• 37:54
  it is? What are kind of some of the
• 37:56
  sales? I know you probably did some of
• 37:58
  it in the M and a strategy that kind of stuff.
• 37:59
  But is there any like one or two things that stick out that you
• 38:02
  think entrepreneurs can learn from from how you approach
• 38:05
  sales? Well, first of all, it's it's
• 38:09
  not going in and saying here's my stuff, here's what I got.
• 38:12
  It's hey, what's working for you?
• 38:13
  What's not understanding what, what are what, what are their
• 38:17
  needs, right? And then I can cater that pitch
• 38:20
  to, hey, I think this game is a fit for you based on what you're
• 38:24
  looking for. So I was going the approach of
• 38:26
  being myself, being curious and asking questions before I just
• 38:31
  jump into a pitch. But then it's understanding from
• 38:38
  the buyer, from the sales team at Asthma Day.
• 38:41
  What are they looking for? And making sure that that is
• 38:44
  what is driving our product development.
• 38:47
  So I won't even start developing a game until I've gotten the
• 38:52
  Asthma Day sales team to be like, yeah, that's something we
• 38:54
  could bring to Walmart or Target.
• 38:57
  It starts at the product development.
• 38:59
  Side and. Then when you're going in to a
• 39:01
  pitch, then it's just let's have fun with it and show them the
• 39:06
  magic of the game. Yeah, as I said, you kind of
• 39:08
  demo it and try to get them involved and.
• 39:10
  So you you want to hear a good story?
• 39:12
  Absolutely. That's what I'm here for, yeah.
• 39:13
  So we have our first ever pitch with the Walmart buyers at this
• 39:18
  big show called Gen. Con.
• 39:21
  And so the Asthma Day sales person's like they're going to
• 39:24
  be there at 3:00 at your booth. Be ready to show them cross the
• 39:27
  line. It's like, all right, so it's
• 39:30
  like 259 and we, we had inventors from some of our other
• 39:34
  games in the booth signing autographs.
• 39:35
  I'm like, this is perfect. We got some like live energy at
• 39:38
  the booth. So one of the inventors has like
• 39:41
  a liter of like root beer or something, opens it up, explodes
• 39:45
  all over the booth. Like literally like a fountain
• 39:49
  of pop just exploding everywhere.
• 39:51
  So I'm like running to get paper towel cleaning up.
• 39:55
  Our designer's like Joe. The Walmart buyers are at the
• 39:57
  booth like I'm like sweating. And they just, they thought it
• 40:04
  was hilarious. Like they're that's funny.
• 40:06
  The buyers are real people, Like they're they're they're just
• 40:08
  like being you, like just having fun.
• 40:11
  So then, you know, it was we got a laugh out of that.
• 40:13
  And then we played cross the line, showed them, demoed the
• 40:16
  game for them. Like, next thing you know, we're
• 40:19
  gonna be on the shelf. Wow of Walmart, Yeah.
• 40:23
  Wow. Is that currently or happening
• 40:24
  soon? That's cross the line.
• 40:27
  Oh, that's the May one. Wow, that's huge, man.
• 40:30
  That's a big time deal. What about what's, what's one
• 40:33
  that went terribly wrong? Like what's a sales conversation
• 40:36
  or a deal that just went horribly wrong?
• 40:38
  Maybe early on even too. I don't know if it was sales,
• 40:41
  but in terms of we had one of our early games go into Target
• 40:47
  and we just didn't really know what we're doing in terms of
• 40:50
  packaging and the pricing and everything.
• 40:52
  Like it just wasn't a fit. It was doomed from the beginning
• 40:56
  and I just didn't have enough industry knowledge to like know
• 41:02
  what's a reasonable forecast. And you know, you're just
• 41:05
  getting, you're just trusting in the retailer, you're trusting in
• 41:08
  your distributor. And we way, way over order the
• 41:11
  games we got in cash trouble. The game like went in and out
• 41:16
  within a few months. And that was, you know, 2018
• 41:21
  and, you know, once you have a really bad experience with that
• 41:26
  target or with that buyer and it no matter where it is, they
• 41:29
  don't want your next game, right?
• 41:31
  So once you get a game in, you have to perform well or they're
• 41:39
  they don't want your next one. The opposite.
• 41:41
  If it does really well. OK, what what's next?
• 41:43
  Right. So totally it's yeah, it can go.
• 41:46
  Yeah, yeah, I can see if it flops.
• 41:49
  One way or the? Other it flops and then you're
• 41:51
  like, I got another idea. They're like, no thanks.
• 41:53
  Yeah, exactly. So once it is actually in store
• 41:56
  and you get you get it in the actual shelves, how much of the
• 42:00
  sales is depending on you and maybe the influencers and
• 42:03
  bringing awareness to, you know, to tell people to go buy it
• 42:05
  versus what what's just like putting it on the shelf and
• 42:09
  hoping people buy because that seems like it'd be tough.
• 42:11
  Like in the in the wall full of games, I put a new one.
• 42:13
  I'm like, do people even notice that shit?
• 42:15
  So what I've learned it when you get on the shelf at Walmart or
• 42:21
  Target, you're not winning by two touchdowns.
• 42:23
  You're down by 5 touchdowns already, right?
• 42:26
  Like you're now up on a shelf with 50 other games and you're,
• 42:31
  you know, Monopoly's three feet away, scrabbles 2 feet away,
• 42:34
  these games that have been known for generations.
• 42:38
  So how do you get people to go there and pick up your game?
• 42:43
  So big thing is the packaging, right?
• 42:46
  It's got to be interesting. It's got to get them, want them
• 42:51
  to pick up the game and then the back of it's got to tell a story
• 42:55
  in 30 seconds and sell it. So how did you think about cross
• 42:58
  the line that that front of the box being interesting enough for
• 43:02
  people to see and go? What is this?
• 43:05
  Yeah, I think both with the packaging very bright colors,
• 43:09
  the the title stands out and then like a cool line of like,
• 43:14
  oh, some lines are meant to be crossed like, oh, what's that?
• 43:17
  What's that about? Right, little edge to it and
• 43:20
  then you pick up the back of the game and it's just very, very
• 43:23
  simple description of why is this fun?
• 43:26
  And then how you know 4 steps? How do you play?
• 43:30
  So going back to simplicity, but but still intriguing enough to
• 43:35
  get someone to want to watch it. So it says here, how good of a
• 43:39
  dancer are you? How bad is your road rage?
• 43:42
  What did your report card look like as a kid?
• 43:44
  And Cross the Line? You'll answer boldly, honest,
• 43:46
  occasionally awkward, and always entertaining questions by
• 43:49
  secretly choosing your answer on a sliding scale.
• 43:52
  Think they know? Think again.
• 43:54
  If they can cross your line, they score.
• 43:55
  The broader they bet, the more they start to gain or lose.
• 43:58
  Whether you're calling out your roommates pizza preferences or
• 44:01
  discovering your cousin's karaoke competence, Cross the
• 44:04
  Line is the ultimate game for getting to know each other and
• 44:06
  laugh while doing it. Very cool.
• 44:10
  And then, yeah, you're right. The other, the the flip side or
• 44:12
  the the other side of the back of the box is just how to play.
• 44:16
  I don't know if you know, I haven't looked at games, I guess
• 44:19
  closely enough, but I don't remember them laying it out this
• 44:22
  clearly. I think a lot of them are like,
• 44:24
  how does it work? And you're just like step 1234.
• 44:27
  You probably learned that that's the most helpful way to do it.
• 44:33
  Yeah, that's really cool. And I do agree.
• 44:34
  I think the colors pop across the line.
• 44:38
  You get a little bit of, you know, again, edginess to it, you
• 44:41
  know, what is this? Yeah.
• 44:45
  And you know, I can show you afterwards, but the game is very
• 44:47
  visual. So when it's going to, when it's
• 44:50
  on social media, there's like this visual, like reveal at the
• 44:52
  end. Now, have you guys ever thought
• 44:56
  about doing like putting AQR code and like scanned it to
• 45:00
  watch you know, a 15 second video of how it's played or
• 45:02
  something? I don't know if that's a bad
• 45:03
  idea or a good idea. I'm curious.
• 45:05
  Yeah, we have in the past. Yeah, you find it works or.
• 45:08
  Not as much as you'd think. I'm not surprised by that.
• 45:10
  Yeah. Why is that, you think?
• 45:14
  I, I don't know, I, I feel like people make that decision just
• 45:17
  on like looking at the back of the.
• 45:18
  Box yeah, I also think it's probably hard to tell like what
• 45:22
  do you put in the video, you know, because it can't be like
• 45:25
  67 people are going to watch it. It'd have to be a quick video
• 45:27
  and then what do you I don't know.
• 45:30
  I think it probably is better just to stick with in this case,
• 45:32
  what it looks like on the box and explaining it.
• 45:34
  Let them experience the box. Now, is it helpful to put like a
• 45:39
  a see through box on there or something if you guys tried that
• 45:43
  stuff where they can see all the stuff or is that not really?
• 45:45
  Yeah, our last game rhymes with Duck, actually has a a
• 45:49
  transparent screen where you can see the, like, rubber duck.
• 45:53
  Yeah, his name's Chuck. There's like a prop or something
• 45:55
  to kind of show it. Yeah, interesting.
• 45:58
  And so, OK, so going back to you guys in the first couple years,
• 46:03
  I'm curious your mindset as a founder when when you're
• 46:06
  building this business, it kind of started off, did it start off
• 46:08
  as a little bit of a side hustle hobby, kind of like, let's see
• 46:11
  what we can do with it? And then at some point it got
• 46:13
  serious. Was there a point?
• 46:14
  Was there a specific moment that you remember where you're like,
• 46:17
  this is going to be a legit business and I'll be able to,
• 46:20
  you know, quit my job because assuming you're working your
• 46:22
  full time job at the time and you're building this on the side
• 46:25
  or no or did you quit your job to do this full time?
• 46:27
  I was creating our first game you betcha while working so then
• 46:34
  after we kick started it and had a successful launch, then I left
• 46:40
  my job. But then I still took on like
• 46:42
  consulting roles and found other ways to.
• 46:44
  Make money, Yeah. The the way I describe it is,
• 46:49
  you know, I get married and two years later I leave my job.
• 46:55
  So we cut our income in half, basically, right.
• 46:58
  Then two years later we have kids, then another kid.
• 47:02
  So then we doubled our expenses, right.
• 47:05
  So, right. So if you can get through that
• 47:08
  with your spouse, yeah, you can get through anything.
• 47:11
  There are some challenges, you know, now that's that's gotten
• 47:14
  better. But so we've gone through those
• 47:17
  sacrifices and done all that so. Did you guys have to make
• 47:21
  lifestyle changes like real big ones?
• 47:23
  You know, nothing major. It helped a little bit that
• 47:27
  COVID, you couldn't really do anything anyway, like go on
• 47:29
  vacation or no shit, things like that.
• 47:33
  But things were tight. You were, you were, you know,
• 47:38
  finding ways to find money that typically, you know, you can
• 47:42
  borrow from your 4-O1K for 60 days as long as you pay it back
• 47:46
  then you don't have to pay the taxes on it.
• 47:48
  Like like things like that of like getting getting tricky of,
• 47:52
  you know, finding ways to finance your business.
• 47:56
  Now, did you or your wife ever think of like, consider you
• 47:58
  going back to work, leaving entrepreneurship, going back to
• 48:01
  the W2 world? Oh, yeah, Really.
• 48:04
  Yeah. And did it ever get how close
• 48:06
  did it get? Pretty close.
• 48:07
  Really. Yeah.
• 48:08
  Like resumes out there You're interviewing.
• 48:10
  Yeah. Really.
• 48:11
  Oh, for sure. What pulled you back?
• 48:12
  We, we grew pretty well in 2023. We had a big customer that we
• 48:21
  got in with. And I think from basically from
• 48:25
  2020 to to last year, we doubled our sales every year for about 5
• 48:32
  years. So we're now in a in a good
• 48:34
  spot. And so it's not a concern.
• 48:38
  Yeah. So now there's no going back
• 48:40
  now, no going back to W2 world. Not for now, no.
• 48:44
  You. Never know, not for now.
• 48:46
  What's your biggest selling game?
• 48:47
  Our largest selling game is called Slip It In.
• 48:50
  That's an interesting name. Yeah.
• 48:52
  So it's a, it's a game. That's the Disney World line
• 48:55
  where they're in line playing it.
• 48:57
  OK, so. It's a game you can play
• 48:58
  anywhere, anytime. So you hand everyone 5 slips and
• 49:02
  they have the most random phrases you could ever think of
• 49:04
  on them, like pocket jerky. Has anyone told you you have
• 49:08
  nice calves? And then throughout the day you
• 49:10
  have to try to slip these into your conversation without
• 49:14
  getting busted. I love that and they don't know
• 49:17
  what the word or phrase. Is they don't know what they
• 49:18
  are, Yeah. But it's going to be kind of
• 49:20
  weird, right? So they they're going to be
• 49:21
  looking for it. So you got to get really clever
• 49:23
  about it. Wow.
• 49:24
  That's good. Yeah.
• 49:26
  I would. I'm going to get that where.
• 49:27
  Do you buy that target Amazon? OK, cool, slip it in.
• 49:32
  I should have brought you one. No, that's fine.
• 49:34
  There's so many to choose from you can't possibly have known
• 49:36
  which way. And I'm sure these are amazing
• 49:38
  too. We'll play all of them, but that
• 49:40
  just seems kind of like creative and fun.
• 49:42
  Yeah, 'cause you can, you can play, you know, anytime,
• 49:45
  anywhere. It's just take on a road trip to
• 49:48
  the bar. Right.
• 49:49
  Yeah. And you just hope you don't.
• 49:51
  I mean, it's kind of fun if you do, but if you get a really out
• 49:53
  there one that's harder to obviously slip it in, then you
• 49:57
  have nice calves. You might be able to pull that
• 49:59
  off. You know, just anyone ever told
• 50:01
  you you have really nice calves? We had someone do so when we
• 50:05
  were at a convention called Gamma, and we had 200 people
• 50:09
  playing the game at the same time.
• 50:11
  And this guy went up to another another guy in line.
• 50:15
  He's like, has anyone ever told you really nice calves?
• 50:19
  And the guy just kind of like looked back in and he's like,
• 50:22
  how can you tell I'm wearing jeans like he.
• 50:25
  Wasn't like, that's not the best one.
• 50:28
  Yeah. So what if you what if someone
• 50:32
  says some a phrase but it's not their thing and you guess and
• 50:36
  you say is because you just say like, hey, is that your phrase?
• 50:38
  Is that what you do during the game?
• 50:40
  If if you say you have really nice calves and I go is that
• 50:42
  your phrase? But what if I'm wrong?
• 50:44
  What if you just said it that? Do I lose for guessing if you're
• 50:48
  I'm not correct? So, So if you call call me out
• 50:51
  and I wasn't trying to slip it in, yeah, then you have to draw
• 50:54
  another card. Oh so now I got to do 2 slip
• 50:56
  insurance. Now you get well now 6 if you
• 50:59
  have all 5 cards. Oh, OK.
• 51:00
  Oh, you draw. I got it.
• 51:01
  OK. Yeah.
• 51:02
  Wow. But but, yeah, so when I say my
• 51:05
  phrase, I have to wait 30 seconds for someone to call me
• 51:09
  out and bust me, OK, before I can say, hey, I slipped it in,
• 51:13
  OK? So you could also throw out
• 51:16
  wacky ones to try and trick people though, right?
• 51:18
  You can so. If you want to be that guy, you
• 51:20
  know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, I'd almost go into
• 51:23
  it being like, let's not like you can't throw out like weird
• 51:26
  shit all throughout the day. Like you really can't.
• 51:29
  Otherwise you could just constantly be like the it's
• 51:32
  really the sun is shining today and then are your calves are
• 51:34
  nice. You could just throw in a bunch
• 51:35
  of stuff, make people guess and then they never know which one
• 51:38
  is trying to hack the game. But I think that takes the fun
• 51:41
  out of it, right? Yeah.
• 51:42
  You got to go into it being like just your be your normal self
• 51:45
  and you got to slip these phrases in.
• 51:47
  Yeah, that's fun. Wow, such A and again, such a
• 51:50
  simple game. Yeah, my favorite story so far
• 51:53
  of the game is someone sent me this Reddit post that like blew
• 51:58
  up on Reddit. Their entire family did speeches
• 52:02
  at their wedding and they all drew a slip it in card that they
• 52:06
  had to slip into their speech. That's awesome.
• 52:09
  Yeah, nice. And like, the groom was pretty
• 52:12
  pissed off about it because he knew what they were doing as he
• 52:15
  was doing because he knew some of the phrases, right?
• 52:17
  And it was like, should I be mad at my family?
• 52:19
  And everyone was like, weighing in, like, oh, like, cut him some
• 52:22
  slack, you know? That's awesome.
• 52:24
  They're just making a game out of it.
• 52:25
  Wow. So what is what's the dream
• 52:29
  store or are there any more? Are there any dream stores that
• 52:32
  you still want to get into or any like dream, you know,
• 52:34
  opportunities to get your games in front of?
• 52:37
  I think the dream right now is to do some international
• 52:41
  expansion. So that show that I was at in
• 52:45
  Germany last week was really to just get it out into some other
• 52:48
  countries and start to localize some of our games.
• 52:52
  We've hit most of the major stores in the United States and
• 52:58
  Canada, so now it's just looking for where else we can put it.
• 53:02
  Expansion, yeah, and and obviously doing more.
• 53:06
  If you're in a Walmart for let's say cross the line, are you in
• 53:09
  every single store? It depends.
• 53:10
  Sometimes they'll do test stores and then if it does well, it
• 53:15
  goes to full chain. That's how that one is starting.
• 53:19
  It's also going earlier, so, so every major retailer has set
• 53:26
  dates. So typically it's in January
• 53:28
  where they reset the whole store and then sometime in the fall,
• 53:32
  August, September, they reset for the holiday.
• 53:35
  So this one's actually going early before a set date.
• 53:39
  So they couldn't fully do every store.
• 53:44
  Now what you know in the first couple weeks of sales how well
• 53:47
  it's doing or is there some that don't do anything the first
• 53:49
  couple weeks then blow up, you know, two months later?
• 53:51
  You get a pretty good read early on how it's performing, but you
• 53:58
  really want to be strong right out of the gate, especially if
• 54:02
  if you're in, let's say August on the shelf, that buyer is
• 54:08
  making a determination whether you're going to be on for next
• 54:10
  year in like December or January.
• 54:13
  So you have like 4 or five months to prove out the sales.
• 54:17
  Well, it's it's a lot of pressure.
• 54:19
  Like I said, you're you're down 5 touchdowns.
• 54:21
  Yeah. Right out of the gate, I've
• 54:23
  heard that with big box retail, it's like it's it's tough to get
• 54:25
  in. And then even if you get in, you
• 54:27
  really got to prove yourself. Yeah.
• 54:29
  What's that? Shelf space is valuable, Yeah.
• 54:34
  And the goal with the business is to one day sell it.
• 54:37
  Sell it or give it to my girls, yeah?
• 54:41
  It would be kind of a fun business for them to, if one of
• 54:43
  them is interested to take over. At least you know, maybe both of
• 54:45
  them, who knows? They love board games and
• 54:47
  they're always coming up with ideas and so it could be fun.
• 54:51
  Yeah, it's a fun industry to be in too.
• 54:54
  Yeah, seems like it. Yeah.
• 54:55
  And what's, what's the game of life for you?
• 54:58
  The game of Life. Yeah, like what's the if you're
• 55:01
  playing the if life is a game, yeah, what would it be for you?
• 55:04
  Like what's it all about? Just enjoying every day and
• 55:07
  making the best out of out of every day with whoever you're in
• 55:10
  front of right with us right here.
• 55:12
  Like let's make the best out of it.
• 55:13
  Let's have fun. And you know, my pack is my is
• 55:20
  my 3 girls at home, my wife and my 2 girls.
• 55:23
  So trying to make the best for them every day.
• 55:28
  I guess it's not that different than the actual game.
• 55:31
  Have some fun, have some laughs, think a little bit, test your
• 55:35
  creativity. Enjoy every second.
• 55:37
  Yeah, and and you know, I, I think with the business, it's
• 55:43
  it's all been about relationships, our Rep groups,
• 55:46
  our our distributor, our marketing, it's, it's all people
• 55:52
  I love to work with and we enjoy each other's company like we're
• 55:56
  each other's favorites. You know, when I go to New York
• 56:00
  Toy Fair, it's let's go out to dinner, let's go out to lunch,
• 56:02
  let's go have fun together. We're always working our butts
• 56:07
  off otherwise. So I'm, I'm just a relationship
• 56:12
  person, never been transactional.
• 56:14
  And I think that might be difficult early on in a
• 56:18
  business, but when you want to have longevity and staying power
• 56:23
  and a brand like I Am, the brand of Gray Matters games, you got
• 56:30
  to be building relationships from day one.
• 56:34
  Love that Joe, I appreciate you coming on the show man.
• 56:36
  Where can people learn more about what you guys do?
• 56:39
  Snatch the games? What do you want to plug here?
• 56:41
  Yeah, you can find all our games on greymattersgames.com and it
• 56:46
  shows all the retailers that we work with.
• 56:48
  I always encouraged, go, go to your local game store too.
• 56:53
  There's they work so hard and they know the games really well.
• 56:56
  Yeah, they'll learn. You can learn a little bit more
• 56:58
  about us and our team on there too.
• 57:00
  And. I think some people don't even
• 57:01
  know there is a local game store.
• 57:02
  They got to Google that and find them.
• 57:04
  Yeah, they're out there, aren't they?
• 57:05
  Yeah, there's some great ones in the Chicago area.
• 57:07
  Yeah, I saw on your guys's map where you have the games at and
• 57:10
  I was like, oh, I don't even recognize this place, but yeah,
• 57:13
  there's lots of them. And and like you said, they
• 57:15
  they're passionate about it, so they're going to help you.
• 57:17
  Yeah, very cool, man. We'll link everything in the
• 57:19
  description. And again, I appreciate you
• 57:21
  coming on the show. Thanks everyone for watching.
• 57:23
  Hope you guys enjoyed this one. Thanks, Alex.
• 57:25
  Thanks. Cheers bud.