Latest / Scalability School / How to Use Category Entry Points to Scale Your Meta Ads | Tyson Drake

Transcript

How to Use Category Entry Points to Scale Your Meta Ads | Tyson Drake · Scalability School

• 0:00
  so when you enter the category,
• 0:01
  hence like the category entry
• 0:03
  like what situation
• 0:05
  prompted you to think of the category?
• 0:06
  and this is
• 0:07
  actually how people
• 0:08
  really buy in real life.
• 0:09
  You don't wake up
• 0:10
  and from your sleep and be like, oh,
• 0:12
  I need testosterone, Like,
• 0:14
  you probably look in the mirror
• 0:15
  and you're
• 0:16
  maybe like I'm getting some mad boobs,
• 0:19
  or maybe like my feelings sleepy or
• 0:21
  like whatever.
• 0:22
  Like that situation is at the gym.
• 0:23
  I don't feel like lifting as much.
• 0:26
  some examples
• 0:27
  that got me thinking about this was like
• 0:28
  first reading that book
• 0:29
  in that framework of like,
• 0:30
  I'm better brand
• 0:31
  which goes through the CategoryTroyes
• 0:33
  framework, which we can get into.
• 0:34
  this is loft year.
• 0:36
  And I'm Like this pairs really well with
• 0:39
  how we like we do
• 0:40
  creative testing around personas.
• 0:41
  But actually you can go deeper.
• 0:42
  this pairs really well
• 0:43
  with like how meta targets individual.
• 0:46
  You know
• 0:47
  now Andromeda a better individual.
• 0:48
  Pockets of like that
• 0:49
  demand all other segments.
• 0:51
  And so I'm just like, oh,
• 0:52
  this is interesting.
• 1:00
  And now
• 1:01
  let's take a
• 1:01
  listen to the Scalability School podcast.
• 1:04
  Welcome back to another episode
• 1:06
  of the Scalability School podcast.
• 1:08
  No Andrew, no Zach today.
• 1:10
  But that's fine
• 1:11
  because we are being joined
• 1:12
  by Tyson, who's
• 1:13
  going to tell us all
• 1:15
  about category entry points
• 1:16
  and how you can use them
• 1:17
  to scale your brand from 7
• 1:19
  to 8, maybe even nine figures.
• 1:20
  It's going to be
• 1:21
  the most tactical playbook
• 1:22
  on category entry points
• 1:24
  and how you can apply them
• 1:24
  to your business.
• 1:25
  Before we get into that,
• 1:27
  and I have tons of questions
• 1:28
  that I'm desperately curious
• 1:29
  about to ask you, Tyson,
• 1:30
  you've done a lot of things,
• 1:32
  but I think
• 1:32
  one of the things that comes up
• 1:33
  most commonly is your time at at UT,
• 1:36
  where you helped
• 1:38
  scale that
• 1:38
  from eight
• 1:39
  into nine figures
• 1:40
  and took it
• 1:41
  across a bunch of different new countries
• 1:42
  and all kinds of things.
• 1:43
  Would you say that that's like,
• 1:46
  is that where you cut your teeth
• 1:47
  the most and learn the most,
• 1:48
  or did you have any other experience
• 1:49
  where you feel like
• 1:50
  you dove into the marketing and DDC land
• 1:52
  and really learned a ton?
• 1:54
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:55
  So I've been doing this,
• 1:56
  I guess
• 1:56
  e-commerce to see thing for 15 years.
• 1:59
  It feels like a lot longer, but
• 2:00
  I started off
• 2:03
  early, a bit of a
• 2:04
  background, started off at first
• 2:06
  higher self taught like affiliate market.
• 2:08
  Actually,
• 2:08
  I actually started off promoting
• 2:10
  like slinging ebooks, Clickbank products.
• 2:12
  So kind I tell my self, Google ads
• 2:15
  ended up getting hired
• 2:16
  for a gym equipment retailer.
• 2:19
  So we that was my first foray
• 2:20
  into e-commerce.
• 2:22
  So like China
• 2:23
  for the equipment brought it.
• 2:24
  Here in Australia we grew the largest
• 2:26
  online fitness retail in Australia.
• 2:28
  We rolled out showrooms nationwide and we
• 2:31
  that was for years.
• 2:31
  We did pretty well
• 2:32
  and I was like, hey, you know,
• 2:34
  I was general manager
• 2:35
  now of the entire business.
• 2:36
  I was like, hey,
• 2:36
  can I just go
• 2:36
  travel Europe for six months?
• 2:38
  So go travel you up for six months.
• 2:40
  Ended up just backpacking and couch
• 2:42
  surfing anywhere I could
• 2:43
  for six months
• 2:43
  straight and met my now fiancé in Geneva
• 2:47
  in Switzerland.
• 2:48
  When I was passing through that.
• 2:49
  Moved to Berlin, worked
• 2:50
  for a venture capital firm
• 2:52
  for three years.
• 2:53
  We're like an operational venture
• 2:54
  capital firm,
• 2:55
  so that's like
• 2:56
  100% team,
• 2:57
  more like an agency
• 2:58
  in-house that also invested.
• 3:00
  And I was part of the operational team
• 3:02
  running Google Ads.
• 3:03
  So I'd go into our portfolio companies
• 3:05
  to help them grow and scale.
• 3:06
  And Facebook was just taken off.
• 3:07
  There's like 2014 to 2016,
• 3:08
  so it was just taken off.
• 3:10
  But Google was kind of the main channel
• 3:12
  for these consumer
• 3:14
  brands and finish up there
• 3:15
  after three years,
• 3:17
  moved back to Australia,
• 3:18
  worked for a whole bunch of DDC bears.
• 3:19
  But audio
• 3:20
  is definitely the most well-known one.
• 3:22
  I'd probably say, like,
• 3:23
  I know
• 3:24
  60% of my foundational knowledge came
• 3:27
  when I was in Berlin
• 3:28
  working with this VC firm.
• 3:31
  I mean, they were using contribution
• 3:33
  dollars back in like 2014
• 3:34
  even before then, right?
• 3:35
  So I said they were like really,
• 3:37
  like really sophisticated in the way
• 3:40
  that I think about measurement
• 3:41
  and doing incrementally
• 3:42
  testing back then.
• 3:43
  And then I kind of took those learnings,
• 3:46
  brought them to different
• 3:47
  brands in Australia
• 3:49
  that I worked for here,
• 3:50
  but they were global brands,
• 3:52
  and then
• 3:52
  ODI is
• 3:53
  where I got to really apply
• 3:55
  the most of those learnings
• 3:56
  and then like kind of test out
• 3:58
  some of my friend works
• 3:59
  I like
• 4:00
  had brought from there,
• 4:01
  but also like further developed
• 4:02
  for working with other brands.
• 4:04
  And so yeah, I'd say like 60%
• 4:07
  like Berlin or Europe,
• 4:09
  European knowledge.
• 4:10
  And then the application
• 4:12
  across the ODI
• 4:13
  to to really go deep
• 4:15
  and the depth of knowledge application
• 4:17
  and it's just a beast.
• 4:18
  Right.
• 4:18
  Like,
• 4:19
  like when you're,
• 4:20
  when you're scaling really aggressively
• 4:22
  across like eight markets
• 4:23
  as we were in like,
• 4:25
  like a such short period of time.
• 4:27
  You can
• 4:28
  you can just like test a lot of things.
• 4:30
  And like Davies,
• 4:31
  a great founder,
• 4:33
  and he gave me the confidence
• 4:36
  to be able to like go like,
• 4:37
  hey David, this is what we need to do.
• 4:39
  Well, this is what I believe
• 4:40
  we need to do.
• 4:41
  You like understand it.
• 4:42
  And he had a marketing background,
• 4:44
  so he was really good to
• 4:46
  like relate to in that regard.
• 4:47
  And he'd be like, yeah, that sounds good.
• 4:49
  Go do it.
• 4:49
  I was like, all right, cool.
• 4:51
  It's going to go hire 20 people.
• 4:52
  No, not right away, you know what I mean?
• 4:54
  Like he just got things really like,
• 4:57
  so so that was one of the good things
• 4:58
  about working for
• 4:59
  he is like, he understood things.
• 5:01
  And I got to roll out a lot of,
• 5:04
  scaling issues as well.
• 5:05
  Yeah. Incredible.
• 5:06
  And so you've put out
• 5:08
  a lot of great content,
• 5:09
  and you do a lot of great work
• 5:10
  as kind of a fractional CMO role.
• 5:12
  And so your website, Draco's,
• 5:14
  and your Twitter is
• 5:15
  where I spend a lot of my time,
• 5:17
  like consuming the content
• 5:17
  that you put out.
• 5:18
  But specifically
• 5:19
  what I want to spend time
• 5:20
  today on is just going through this,
• 5:22
  this idea of category
• 5:23
  edge route points,
• 5:24
  which I'll leave you to define
• 5:25
  because I think you're
• 5:26
  gonna do a much better job
• 5:26
  than I will in a second.
• 5:28
  But what what like brought category.
• 5:32
  Like,
• 5:32
  can you give me a little bit
• 5:33
  like how did you arrive
• 5:34
  to a category entry points
• 5:35
  in the first place?
• 5:35
  Like was it out of necessity of like,
• 5:37
  Holy shit, we're hitting
• 5:38
  we're hitting a ceiling
• 5:39
  and I can't figure out
• 5:39
  how to break through.
• 5:40
  Like,
• 5:40
  how did you even stumble on this
• 5:42
  in the first It's
• 5:42
  kind of my attention
• 5:43
  that maybe you are
• 5:44
  listening to this podcast
• 5:45
  and you've never heard of
• 5:46
  our new podcast, AI to see
• 5:49
  if you're dealing with
• 5:50
  AI stuff, you're not sure where to go,
• 5:52
  you're not sure how people are using it.
• 5:54
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• 5:56
  It's with two friends of mine
• 5:57
  that's actually genuinely useful.
• 5:59
  There are things that we go through.
• 6:01
  We talk about how we're using AI.
• 6:03
  It's a really great podcast.
• 6:04
  If you want to figure
• 6:05
  out what's happening right now
• 6:07
  in DC with AI.
• 6:09
  So AI, DDC, W2, check it out on YouTube,
• 6:12
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• 6:14
  you get your podcasts.
• 6:15
  Look forward to having you as a listener.
• 6:17
  Yeah.
• 6:17
  So it was a combination
• 6:19
  of things, really.
• 6:20
  I like to keep a bit of a
• 6:22
  like I think as marketers,
• 6:25
  as like operators. Right.
• 6:26
  This is a clear, clear differentiation.
• 6:28
  So as like marketing operators
• 6:30
  we are like really in the trenches and
• 6:34
  doing a lot of things
• 6:35
  testing, experimenting.
• 6:36
  And we're kind of like learning
• 6:38
  from like a bottom up perspective.
• 6:39
  Right? It's like, oh look what I learned.
• 6:41
  It's like these ads are working
• 6:42
  and there's
• 6:43
  a whole creative strategy thing.
• 6:44
  And like
• 6:45
  maybe previously meta
• 6:46
  had to do a lot of the interest targeting
• 6:48
  and now kind of had to learn
• 6:50
  how to become marketers. Right.
• 6:52
  So I've just had to learn how to,
• 6:55
  I mean,
• 6:56
  back in the day when I was slinging
• 6:57
  ebooks, it's a lot easier to just capture
• 6:58
  just in demand by keyword
• 7:00
  targeting, right?
• 7:00
  Versus like,
• 7:01
  now I'm going to think about like
• 7:02
  how to how to like
• 7:03
  the consumer psychology
• 7:05
  and how to like
• 7:05
  what ads
• 7:07
  kind of target different personas. Right.
• 7:09
  So so
• 7:10
  as a result of that,
• 7:11
  my thinking is like,
• 7:12
  I like to have a bit of a finger
• 7:14
  on the pulse
• 7:14
  as like what's like the marketing world
• 7:17
  saying like,
• 7:18
  like the academically
• 7:19
  trained marketing world
• 7:20
  and what and then like,
• 7:22
  what are we kind of like,
• 7:24
  what are we learning from
• 7:25
  like a month perspective. Right.
• 7:27
  And so there's some great book
• 7:28
  I just had to teach myself marketing to,
• 7:30
  to be, to be blunt,
• 7:31
  is like,
• 7:33
  yeah, I help scout like a brand
• 7:34
  to over 100 million.
• 7:35
  But like, I had to
• 7:36
  I had to teach myself marketing
• 7:37
  from like a foundational perspective.
• 7:40
  And so some great books is
• 7:42
  I just like,
• 7:43
  well, what can I where
• 7:43
  can I learn something?
• 7:44
  Because I didn't go to university
• 7:46
  for marketing.
• 7:46
  I'm a guitarist.
• 7:48
  I went to uni to study music,
• 7:50
  and I'm a metal head,
• 7:51
  so I just wanted to play in a Swedish
• 7:52
  heavy metal band for the rest of my life.
• 7:54
  And and so I had to learn marketing,
• 7:56
  much like yourself, I'm sure.
• 7:58
  And I'm like, well,
• 7:59
  what are some great books? Right.
• 8:00
  So there's like the Edinburgh
• 8:02
  based Institute of Marketing Science,
• 8:04
  which is putting out
• 8:05
  a lot of really, really solid papers.
• 8:08
  I don't read the papers.
• 8:09
  They just kind of dumb it down
• 8:10
  for people like me.
• 8:11
  And I just read the book.
• 8:12
  So that's some great books
• 8:13
  where this is where
• 8:14
  I went to learn marketing
• 8:15
  and they've got like the better,
• 8:18
  How Brands
• 8:18
  Grow Part one,
• 8:19
  which is released in
• 8:20
  maybe 2008, 2009, maybe
• 8:23
  have Brands grow part two,
• 8:25
  there is better
• 8:26
  brand health,
• 8:27
  which is where the CP framework came
• 8:28
  in, and I distinctly brand assets.
• 8:30
  But like they're a research institute
• 8:32
  and they're based in my hometown
• 8:33
  of Adelaide.
• 8:34
  Actually,
• 8:34
  it was ironically, I'm like, oh,
• 8:35
  these are good books.
• 8:36
  Oh, they're actually where I live.
• 8:38
  And why haven't I ever heard of them?
• 8:39
  So there are a research institute
• 8:42
  that gets like
• 8:43
  lots of investment
• 8:44
  from all the multinationals
• 8:46
  that I'm sure you've all heard of
• 8:48
  from your country
• 8:49
  McDonald's, Pepsi, Coca Cola,
• 8:51
  you know, like
• 8:52
  they're the big most
• 8:54
  that like invest in
• 8:55
  in the their research.
• 8:56
  And so they have to go out and like pitch
• 8:58
  and raise money.
• 8:59
  Not from a profit perspective
• 9:00
  but from like a, like
• 9:02
  a research graph perspective.
• 9:04
  And it just turns out they're like,
• 9:06
  well, the best research
• 9:06
  marketing institutes in the world.
• 9:08
  And so they focus on
• 9:10
  putting out all these papers
• 9:11
  and with the underlying
• 9:13
  how does marketing work, like
• 9:15
  what are the fundamentals of marketing.
• 9:17
  And one of those fundamentals
• 9:19
  that they kind of stumbled across.
• 9:20
  And they
• 9:20
  they talk about mental availability,
• 9:22
  which is like
• 9:23
  how like how
• 9:26
  what does a lot of
• 9:26
  who do you thought of in
• 9:27
  like buying situation
• 9:28
  that was kind of stumbled
• 9:29
  upon in like the early 2000
• 9:31
  and they go to
• 9:32
  like,
• 9:34
  more like
• 9:34
  refining this framework of like,
• 9:36
  like people
• 9:38
  think of brands in buying situations.
• 9:41
  So that's the core
• 9:41
  premise of like a category entry
• 9:43
  point is, is what are you thought of?
• 9:46
  How many times are
• 9:47
  you thought of in by situations?
• 9:49
  And sorry that the main book
• 9:50
  was written by like Better Brand
• 9:52
  Health was written by Jenny
• 9:53
  Romanek from the Institute
• 9:54
  is when I shout that out.
• 9:56
  But yeah, the core
• 9:57
  premise of like category
• 9:59
  entry points
• 9:59
  is buying situations, right?
• 10:03
  So so
• 10:04
  when you enter the category, hence
• 10:06
  like the category entry point,
• 10:07
  when you enter the category, like,
• 10:10
  like what
• 10:11
  situation prompted you
• 10:12
  to think of the category?
• 10:14
  And, and this is
• 10:15
  actually how people
• 10:16
  really buy in real life.
• 10:17
  You don't wake up
• 10:18
  and like from your sleep
• 10:20
  and be like, oh,
• 10:21
  I need testosterone, right?
• 10:22
  Like,
• 10:23
  you probably look in the mirror
• 10:24
  and you're like,
• 10:26
  maybe like I'm getting some mad boobs,
• 10:29
  or maybe like my feelings sleepy or
• 10:31
  like whatever.
• 10:32
  Like that situation is at the gym.
• 10:33
  I don't feel like I'm lifting as much.
• 10:36
  like some examples
• 10:37
  that got me thinking about this was like
• 10:39
  first reading that book
• 10:40
  in that framework of like,
• 10:41
  I'm better brand Health,
• 10:43
  which goes through the CategoryTroyes
• 10:44
  framework, which we can get into.
• 10:46
  And then I was like, so this is like,
• 10:47
  this is like loft year.
• 10:49
  And I'm like,
• 10:50
  Like this pairs
• 10:51
  really well with like how we
• 10:54
  how like we do
• 10:55
  creative testing around personas.
• 10:56
  But actually you can go deeper.
• 10:58
  And this pairs really well
• 10:59
  with like how meta targets individual.
• 11:02
  You know
• 11:03
  now Andromeda can target like
• 11:06
  a better individual.
• 11:06
  Pockets of like that
• 11:08
  demand all other segments. Right.
• 11:09
  And so I'm just like, oh,
• 11:10
  this is interesting.
• 11:11
  And it just got me thinking about like,
• 11:13
  so that's the
• 11:14
  that's like the academic side
• 11:16
  of like the category entry
• 11:17
  points buying situations.
• 11:19
  Some examples of that to be
• 11:20
  to be more clear
• 11:21
  the head like the
• 11:22
  the earphones
• 11:23
  the noise cancellation device category.
• 11:25
  Right.
• 11:25
  So maybe your front row
• 11:28
  at a concert, right.
• 11:29
  You're at a festival.
• 11:30
  So this is actually how
• 11:31
  I entered the category
• 11:32
  and prompted me to
• 11:32
  think of like how to approach this.
• 11:35
  And so I'm a big metal head.
• 11:36
  All the metal concerts
• 11:38
  I go to, I'm always front row,
• 11:40
  always right.
• 11:41
  I get there early, I'm front row.
• 11:43
  And what that means is
• 11:45
  I have a little
• 11:46
  bit of ringing in my ears.
• 11:47
  Also from playing
• 11:48
  loud music as well in a lot of bands,
• 11:51
  but like, like, I'm
• 11:52
  going to need earplugs, right?
• 11:53
  I took my fiance.
• 11:54
  She's like,
• 11:55
  I'm like, come to attack with me.
• 11:56
  Like the last time
• 11:58
  I was seeing so big, good experience
• 12:00
  and she's like, oh,
• 12:00
  probably need some earplugs.
• 12:01
  But it's so situation, right?
• 12:03
  No example.
• 12:04
  Crying baby on a flight. You're flying.
• 12:07
  Maybe flying.
• 12:08
  You know,
• 12:08
  my partner just went to,
• 12:10
  she went to Rome, Perth to Rome.
• 12:13
  17 hour flight, one way.
• 12:15
  No. Yeah.
• 12:16
  Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
• 12:18
  So like,
• 12:19
  if you're sitting next to,
• 12:20
  you know, some noisy people or like,
• 12:23
  you know, baby, that might,
• 12:25
  you know, not, not deal with a flight so.
• 12:26
  Well, like.
• 12:26
  Yeah, you probably want to me
• 12:27
  if you're so open office plan.
• 12:30
  Right.
• 12:31
  Super noisy
• 12:32
  snoring partner
• 12:33
  like annoying
• 12:34
  can't get to sleep public transport
• 12:36
  like so you get the idea.
• 12:37
  These are like the actual situations
• 12:39
  that trigger people to be like, oh,
• 12:41
  I wish I had some.
• 12:43
  And we've done our jobs right.
• 12:45
  As marketers, people would go,
• 12:46
  oh, I need some loot earplugs. Right.
• 12:49
  And so so that's actually that's like
• 12:51
  the exact situation
• 12:53
  that led me to buy a loop earplugs was
• 12:55
  I am going to be front Metallica.
• 12:58
  My partner is
• 12:58
  and we have no earplugs
• 13:00
  and we need earplugs
• 13:02
  and we need loop airbags
• 13:04
  because I was just aware of them. Right.
• 13:06
  I wasn't actually
• 13:07
  wearing any other earplugs.
• 13:08
  And so so we we then call that.
• 13:10
  So that's the key category entry point.
• 13:13
  And then from that is the like
• 13:17
  like
• 13:18
  how do you like think of them.
• 13:21
  So that's called
• 13:22
  what's called the academic terminology.
• 13:24
  That's called mental availability.
• 13:25
  So as a brand like
• 13:26
  brands want
• 13:27
  to become mentally available
• 13:29
  in buying situations.
• 13:31
  So that's like the whole spiel
• 13:34
  about what a category entry point is.
• 13:36
  Yeah it's funny.
• 13:37
  Loop loop is a great example of this.
• 13:40
  The Alex who runs
• 13:42
  I think he's head of growth
• 13:43
  that at loop right now he's
• 13:45
  he watches the bot
• 13:46
  and he's a great friend.
• 13:47
  We DM a little bit over over Twitter.
• 13:49
  So he's a he's a great guy.
• 13:50
  But I think this is
• 13:52
  this is the Drake photo
• 13:53
  that I gave out of Metallica.
• 13:54
  So they gave.
• 13:55
  So you walk into the
• 13:56
  and I was like, oh yeah, access VIP.
• 13:58
  You walk out
• 13:59
  and you just hand your drink bottles
• 14:01
  and you know,
• 14:02
  I'm like,
• 14:02
  everyone's like in the crowd
• 14:03
  with these big drink bowls.
• 14:04
  And you've been be in the front row
• 14:06
  like I have.
• 14:07
  You always get smacked in the back
• 14:08
  by water bottles
• 14:08
  and people throwing things.
• 14:09
  So like, this is this is a leader.
• 14:11
  This and this water bottle is like
• 14:13
  not light.
• 14:14
  So this is probably one
• 14:16
  and a half kilo tequila.
• 14:17
  And I'm just like,
• 14:18
  they're hoping someone doesn't throw
• 14:19
  one of these bottles
• 14:20
  at the back of my head.
• 14:20
  So it looks like a weapon.
• 14:22
  Yeah, it's a brick.
• 14:24
  Uses a door stopper.
• 14:26
  Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
• 14:29
  So what's great about the
• 14:30
  so category entry points.
• 14:31
  Like if I mean at this point
• 14:32
  like people should be convinced that
• 14:33
  like it's it's a useful mechanism.
• 14:35
  I have a bunch of different questions.
• 14:36
  But like if you needed any more evidence
• 14:38
  for like the value of this,
• 14:40
  I think in your piece
• 14:40
  you kind of
• 14:41
  you gave some context
• 14:42
  on loops, trajectory
• 14:43
  where they went
• 14:44
  from like 40 million
• 14:45
  to 110 million, 280 million
• 14:46
  over the course of three years.
• 14:48
  And a lot of
• 14:49
  there are people
• 14:50
  who were buying from them
• 14:51
  had actually never even
• 14:52
  been in the category like before that.
• 14:55
  Had you ever before you considered it?
• 14:57
  Had you ever worn
• 14:57
  your plugs in your life,
• 14:58
  like to sleep or anything?
• 14:59
  Yeah.
• 14:59
  So I think the important thing
• 15:01
  to think about is
• 15:03
  although 60 people had 60% or whatever,
• 15:05
  the reference hadn't plugs,
• 15:07
  which is a phenomenal effort
• 15:08
  by them to be able to, you know, scale.
• 15:11
  And how many people were quiet.
• 15:12
  There's many
• 15:13
  customers, the job to be done
• 15:17
  so, so using like the clay Christians
• 15:19
  and like
• 15:19
  what does the job to be done framework.
• 15:20
  The job to be done is noise cancellation.
• 15:24
  Right.
• 15:24
  And so how did I previously
• 15:26
  treat noise cancellation.
• 15:28
  So I've thought of that.
• 15:30
  So at concerts
• 15:30
  what I actually used to do is
• 15:31
  I took my earbuds, I just
• 15:33
  I just didn't have anything plan. Right.
• 15:35
  So geography down noise
• 15:36
  cancellation issue
• 15:37
  something else
• 15:38
  I'm open office
• 15:39
  like when I was working in Berlin.
• 15:41
  Open up
• 15:42
  even though the open office,
• 15:43
  just like headphones on,
• 15:46
  are quite silent, no music.
• 15:48
  And so you just kind of use
• 15:49
  that as noise cancellation bus.
• 15:51
  You can play music.
• 15:52
  But yeah,
• 15:53
  I mean,
• 15:53
  the point is, is like
• 15:54
  the job to be done is like,
• 15:55
  like quietness.
• 15:56
  And I think just
• 15:57
  other products
• 15:58
  may have been taking up that space
• 16:00
  inadvertently without
• 16:01
  without the intent of it.
• 16:02
  And actually the concerts that I go
• 16:04
  to, they have,
• 16:06
  you can just buy disposable
• 16:07
  plugs sometimes about sometimes,
• 16:09
  like the security guards at the front row
• 16:10
  will give you if you ask them.
• 16:12
  Otherwise you'd go to the bar
• 16:13
  and ask for them and then you buy them.
• 16:15
  So I was buying them,
• 16:16
  but I didn't have any reusable ones
• 16:18
  like like look.
• 16:19
  And so I think,
• 16:20
  I think maybe like a lot of
• 16:21
  that might have been happening as well.
• 16:23
  So people are already
• 16:24
  solving the problem.
• 16:25
  But but then you have
• 16:26
  like the adoption curve,
• 16:27
  like the classic like book of
• 16:32
  like you got entrepreneurs
• 16:34
  or early doctors like majority laggards.
• 16:37
  I think it's just more like that.
• 16:39
  Like I go out of context
• 16:40
  and I see people wearing
• 16:41
  loopy plugs and I'm like, oh,
• 16:43
  like, you've got this too.
• 16:44
  So maybe,
• 16:45
  maybe the made it
• 16:46
  more socially acceptable to
• 16:47
  to wear
• 16:48
  as far as like clunky as a big headphone.
• 16:51
  Like all like a, like the
• 16:52
  the like
• 16:53
  the fluoride earplugs
• 16:54
  that you might see on worksites
• 16:55
  or something like that. Yeah.
• 16:57
  So you said
• 16:57
  you said something interesting
• 16:58
  interesting in there,
• 17:00
  which I think is just kind of
• 17:01
  like the discovery piece.
• 17:03
  How how how you.
• 17:05
  So when, when Zach is on Zach and I,
• 17:07
  we kind of have this like
• 17:08
  shared framework
• 17:09
  around something similar to SEPs,
• 17:11
  which is
• 17:11
  like pillars, angles, personas,
• 17:13
  which is kind of three different things.
• 17:15
  Do you do
• 17:16
  you have outside of SIPs
• 17:18
  or they're different buckets
• 17:19
  that you are grouping these things into?
• 17:21
  The job to be done
• 17:22
  is something that you said.
• 17:23
  It's like, well,
• 17:23
  noise canceling is the job to be done.
• 17:25
  And then there's
• 17:26
  a bunch of different people
• 17:26
  that want that job to be done
• 17:28
  or the, the,
• 17:29
  the example you gave earlier.
• 17:31
  It's like some people,
• 17:32
  it's related to sleep,
• 17:32
  some people it's weight loss.
• 17:34
  So are there any other kind of like
• 17:35
  categorical things
• 17:36
  that you use to help define this
• 17:38
  or is like Sep
• 17:39
  the core thing that you focus on? Yeah.
• 17:41
  So I think
• 17:43
  I think
• 17:43
  personas are important
• 17:45
  and this is probably more
• 17:46
  of a semantic discussion.
• 17:48
  I like personas.
• 17:50
  If what you're saying a persona is,
• 17:53
  is the aggregate bundle
• 17:55
  of different category entry points.
• 17:57
  Right.
• 17:57
  And so I'll give like the plug example.
• 18:01
  So if like the like festival
• 18:04
  it's like I'm front row.
• 18:05
  It's noisy
• 18:08
  I want some quiet time
• 18:10
  while I like not near the music or sleep
• 18:13
  and snoring.
• 18:13
  It's like storing partner
• 18:14
  snoring on a flight.
• 18:16
  So so like that would be like
• 18:19
  CPS would be the situations.
• 18:20
  But like the, the persona would be like,
• 18:24
  sleep relaxed.
• 18:25
  Right? Relaxation.
• 18:26
  Can we trying to wind down
• 18:27
  before we go to sleep as well.
• 18:28
  So so if the persona is like
• 18:31
  the grouped category of the CPS
• 18:33
  and that's how you define
• 18:34
  the persona then.
• 18:35
  Yet I think that's perfectly fine.
• 18:37
  Where I have a problem with
• 18:38
  is I've seen the sun
• 18:40
  as being defined
• 18:40
  before as like like
• 18:42
  like the brand sweatshirt,
• 18:44
  you know,
• 18:45
  they're just like they're switching
• 18:46
  brands all the time, like just here
• 18:48
  and they're buying in this
• 18:49
  and yeah, like
• 18:50
  of course people travel to from brands.
• 18:52
  But like I don't think
• 18:52
  that's a good persona.
• 18:53
  So where I like the thing up.
• 18:55
  So it was like the aggregate
• 18:57
  of lots
• 18:57
  of different category
• 18:58
  entry points that are clearly different
• 19:00
  from other categories.
• 19:01
  So if you might do like hunting,
• 19:05
  like the socks, like compression like,
• 19:07
  like etc.. Yeah. Yeah.
• 19:10
  And then so
• 19:12
  I think it'd be good
• 19:13
  to start to pivot into like,
• 19:14
  how can we curious like
• 19:15
  first like
• 19:16
  how you actually start
• 19:17
  to build these, like
• 19:18
  how do you actually go
• 19:19
  and do the research, research
• 19:20
  to find them
• 19:21
  if you have any like
• 19:22
  process that you build,
• 19:23
  maybe you have a little bit of AI
• 19:24
  that you've mixed into that process
• 19:26
  and then prioritizing them.
• 19:27
  Like, I'm super curious
• 19:28
  about the prioritization
• 19:29
  point in particular,
• 19:30
  just because like,
• 19:31
  you might be able to come up
• 19:32
  with 50 different category entry points,
• 19:34
  but that doesn't mean
• 19:35
  that they're all worth pursuing today.
• 19:36
  And there's a prioritization
• 19:37
  that probably needs to occur.
• 19:39
  Although tools like tribe and TikTok shop
• 19:41
  have probably made it
• 19:42
  a little bit easier
• 19:42
  to do a little bit of spray
• 19:44
  and pray with that.
• 19:45
  So maybe we start by actually
• 19:47
  finding them
• 19:47
  and then we can move into prioritizing.
• 19:49
  friends, quick break.
• 19:50
  This episode is brought to you
• 19:51
  by North Beam,
• 19:52
  the marketing attribution platform
• 19:54
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• 19:55
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  is slow and error prone.
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  How are you supposed to know
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  what to test in the first place?
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  Incrementally. Was broken.
• 20:58
  North beam fixed Yeah.
• 21:00
  So I mean how do we
• 21:01
  how do we find
• 21:01
  I think there's like
• 21:02
  I'm always like quantum quo. Right.
• 21:04
  And so sort of the so the,
• 21:07
  the research part,
• 21:08
  I mean there's just a lot of tools
• 21:10
  that can,
• 21:11
  you can lean on to, to help do this.
• 21:12
  I mean, so I mean,
• 21:16
  the easiest one would be like
• 21:18
  if you have like a standard AI tool,
• 21:21
  you know, Claude or whatever, and like
• 21:24
  just prompt it to like,
• 21:26
  do the research of the category.
• 21:29
  I think it's most important point is
• 21:31
  you want to start with a category,
• 21:33
  because if you
• 21:34
  if you just use something like
• 21:36
  your own data,
• 21:37
  if you just use surveys,
• 21:38
  if you use comments, if you use maybe
• 21:41
  like email,
• 21:42
  like your email email survey,
• 21:44
  it would just use post-purchase survey
• 21:47
  and just use.
• 21:48
  So if you're just using your own data,
• 21:51
  that will potentially limit your scope
• 21:53
  onto which category
• 21:54
  entry points you uncover. Right.
• 21:56
  And the best thing today.
• 21:58
  Right.
• 21:58
  Like the people
• 21:59
  that are already buying from you.
• 22:00
  Exactly right.
• 22:01
  So if you're loop plugs
• 22:02
  and I think they started with
• 22:03
  like a festival
• 22:04
  as a festival product,
• 22:05
  and then we add to festival products
• 22:07
  like like all your perspective
• 22:09
  survey comments
• 22:09
  are probably gonna be festival
• 22:11
  like people.
• 22:11
  Why'd you buy festival
• 22:13
  and so so like so the your ads
• 22:17
  kind of bias
• 22:18
  the SEPs research you could say.
• 22:21
  But it's important to do.
• 22:22
  But but
• 22:23
  it just biases a little bit as well.
• 22:25
  And you actually see this
• 22:26
  I've just seen this a lot in
• 22:27
  like perspective survey research
• 22:29
  that like ads are only about this like
• 22:32
  like poster paper
• 22:34
  survey data is this matches.
• 22:36
  And so that's why it's important
• 22:37
  to look at your competitors
• 22:39
  might be reviews on Amazon
• 22:41
  or their own website or just
• 22:43
  you know
• 22:44
  it could be prompting the,
• 22:45
  you know, an AI
• 22:46
  to think about the category.
• 22:48
  So for loop
• 22:48
  that would be like the noise
• 22:49
  cancellation category.
• 22:51
  So you got noise
• 22:52
  cancellation category in general and
• 22:55
  like forums like like Reddit or whatever.
• 22:59
  Maybe there's like a specialized noise
• 23:00
  forum that you could look up.
• 23:02
  But I think the majority of
• 23:03
  that discussion would happen on Reddit.
• 23:05
  But it might be like these niches.
• 23:07
  So the research might be all right,
• 23:08
  what are the niches within the category.
• 23:11
  And then you can go
• 23:12
  like look further in detail
• 23:13
  but actually uncover.
• 23:15
  So so that's like
• 23:16
  a little bit of a high level
• 23:17
  as to how to do that.
• 23:18
  I'm sure I'm
• 23:18
  sure there's lots of other methodologies
• 23:20
  like like get park
• 23:21
  AI like maybe
• 23:22
  another tool that can help do that.
• 23:24
  Maybe,
• 23:24
  you know,
• 23:25
  you can do competitor research in motion
• 23:26
  that shows you know
• 23:28
  who the personas
• 23:29
  and like like
• 23:30
  there's lots of ways
• 23:31
  to kind of approach this.
• 23:32
  But but like to the problem
• 23:35
  with like the,
• 23:36
  like the motions of the world
• 23:39
  that have like these AI segments in place
• 23:41
  is I don't think they haven't uncovered
• 23:44
  SEPs.
• 23:44
  Well,
• 23:45
  I don't think they do a job
• 23:46
  of uncovering situations.
• 23:48
  I think they do a good job
• 23:49
  of like aggregating personas
• 23:50
  for the most part.
• 23:51
  So, so I can go inside the like how so?
• 23:55
  So how to uncover this, right.
• 23:57
  So how yarn cover is, is the
• 24:00
  the seven W's. Right.
• 24:01
  So this is originally
• 24:02
  taken from philosophy
• 24:04
  of like the five W's.
• 24:06
  What when where why how.
• 24:08
  And it's just like a discovery process
• 24:10
  that the philosophers used in the book
• 24:12
  that a bit of brain health.
• 24:13
  Jenny kind of adapts this from like a,
• 24:18
  sorry
• 24:19
  adapts from like
• 24:20
  a, a non philosophical perspective.
• 24:23
  So it's like,
• 24:25
  why what problems needs or desires
• 24:27
  like trigger the purchase.
• 24:28
  Like that's the situation
• 24:30
  when like what
• 24:31
  time seasons or life events
• 24:33
  where, where does the
• 24:35
  the consumption happen.
• 24:36
  So like where's the product in use
• 24:39
  with whom what influences or
• 24:41
  like what is the shared experience
• 24:43
  he might be sharing this with.
• 24:44
  With what with like
• 24:46
  what is it consumed with.
• 24:47
  So supplement
• 24:48
  may water or like
• 24:49
  is it with the protein shake.
• 24:51
  There's a while.
• 24:52
  What activities at the gym, in the train
• 24:56
  and the festival.
• 24:58
  And then
• 24:59
  the W does a load, the heavy lifting
• 25:01
  and how how
• 25:02
  so the W how like how you feel like
• 25:04
  what is the emotional state
• 25:06
  that triggers this need. Right.
• 25:07
  And so from here you can
• 25:11
  use those seven prompts to either
• 25:14
  if you,
• 25:14
  if you're very well
• 25:16
  versed in your categories, a brand owner,
• 25:18
  you could probably just write these down.
• 25:19
  Oh yeah, I experience this
• 25:20
  I know customers right.
• 25:22
  And so that would be like part one.
• 25:24
  Like just just write this down.
• 25:25
  But like it's a very structured approach
• 25:28
  to surface these situations. Right.
• 25:30
  And so like you can ask your favorite
• 25:33
  lm to, to like uncover these.
• 25:37
  Right.
• 25:37
  And then like I'm sure
• 25:38
  it will come up with a list and go, okay,
• 25:40
  there's another list.
• 25:41
  And then you could like
• 25:42
  take to a survey data
• 25:43
  and like like reviewer,
• 25:45
  you should read it.
• 25:46
  He should get a feel
• 25:47
  for like the situations
• 25:48
  and like try and pattern
• 25:49
  match yourself and understand
• 25:50
  like like take the survey data. Right.
• 25:53
  So you just like take all the,
• 25:55
  the aggregate of these
• 25:56
  like places where you can get data from.
• 25:58
  And you should
• 25:59
  of course
• 26:00
  consume it yourself to,
• 26:00
  to really understand
• 26:01
  the category and the situations and then
• 26:05
  using your like,
• 26:07
  you can just uncover them. Right.
• 26:09
  It's like it's not a very sophisticated
• 26:11
  research mechanism.
• 26:12
  It's just like understanding,
• 26:13
  like your own brand
• 26:14
  is going to have a bias
• 26:15
  to uncover certain seeps.
• 26:17
  You want to look outside that
• 26:18
  where you do that, the whole category
• 26:20
  competitors, Reddit, you know, etc.
• 26:25
  and they are
• 26:26
  just really good at doing that.
• 26:27
  So, so
• 26:28
  then it will give you a big list of like,
• 26:30
  okay, well,
• 26:31
  you know, for loop
• 26:31
  that might be you know,
• 26:33
  I worried about this in articles.
• 26:34
  I felt that might be like,
• 26:35
  why are people buying. Right.
• 26:37
  And so that would be
• 26:38
  protected is not environments. Right.
• 26:40
  So that's like the core purpose
• 26:41
  of the category sensory deprivation.
• 26:43
  You know better sleep.
• 26:44
  Like when do they buy
• 26:46
  or use
• 26:46
  like at concerts, festivals, night
• 26:49
  trying to sleep during flights.
• 26:50
  The train example
• 26:52
  where are those at home
• 26:54
  trying to relax at work.
• 26:56
  You know,
• 26:57
  transit planes, riding a motorcycle.
• 27:00
  With whom?
• 27:01
  So friends focusing, trying to sleep.
• 27:03
  Social setting.
• 27:04
  You know colleagues at work
• 27:06
  with with like what are they doing.
• 27:08
  So like what are they
• 27:10
  doing it
• 27:12
  so like the concert sleeping meditation.
• 27:14
  So these are overlap
• 27:16
  but it's just different ways
• 27:16
  to prompt prompt the situation
• 27:19
  while wearing.
• 27:20
  So the example
• 27:21
  the loop has in one of the ads
• 27:23
  actually is a motorcycle rider.
• 27:25
  So helmet.
• 27:26
  And of course you've got the
• 27:27
  we have had some we've got help
• 27:29
  you get that idea.
• 27:30
  But it can be quite noisy
• 27:31
  with a helmet right eye
• 27:33
  mask and earplugs. Right.
• 27:34
  So while wearing sunglasses
• 27:37
  and while feeling right.
• 27:39
  So that's like
• 27:40
  maybe my feeling anxiety or tired or,
• 27:43
  you know, focus will lock in on
• 27:45
  decent time effects. Right.
• 27:46
  And so
• 27:47
  so this is like just some great examples
• 27:49
  like those are all right.
• 27:51
  That's like a list of CP.
• 27:52
  So you then take that
• 27:54
  breadth of the list.
• 27:55
  You kind of narrow it down
• 27:57
  so you wouldn't be like
• 27:57
  oh concert wouldn't be like
• 27:59
  heavy metal concert festival.
• 28:01
  You know,
• 28:03
  country music, it just be like concerts.
• 28:06
  Right.
• 28:06
  And so you kind of like aggregate
• 28:08
  those down, narrow those down.
• 28:10
  And then what you do is you look for,
• 28:14
  ways you can bucket the CPS.
• 28:17
  Right.
• 28:17
  And so you go
• 28:18
  so loop has a core one called sleep.
• 28:20
  And maybe that's their
• 28:21
  they call it the sonar.
• 28:22
  I sometimes refer to it
• 28:23
  as like a CP grouping what they call CP.
• 28:27
  But it's just semantics. Right.
• 28:28
  It's just it's
• 28:29
  just like a grouping of CPS and
• 28:31
  and and so they sleep in focus for loop.
• 28:34
  That's what they call it.
• 28:35
  And then the focus
• 28:36
  is like all the other
• 28:38
  examples of the situations.
• 28:39
  And then they have like travel on transit
• 28:41
  and all the examples
• 28:43
  of where you might need it.
• 28:43
  And so they just
• 28:44
  they just bucket these
• 28:45
  into different, groups of CPS.
• 28:49
  And then of course you have.
• 28:51
  So that's like how you do the research.
• 28:53
  And then of course
• 28:54
  you have a massive list. Right.
• 28:56
  And you're just like,
• 28:57
  well like how the do I start?
• 29:01
  Like where do I start?
• 29:02
  How do I size the opportunity?
• 29:04
  And so I like to use the Ice
• 29:07
  framework for this.
• 29:08
  Like,
• 29:09
  like any like opportunity
• 29:10
  sizing,
• 29:12
  Ice frameworks, impact conferences.
• 29:14
  So how impactful is like the CP
• 29:16
  going to be or even the bucket.
• 29:18
  And you just score it from 1 to 5
• 29:21
  five being it's going to be
• 29:22
  like the most impactful one,
• 29:23
  being like it's
• 29:23
  not going to have much impact at all.
• 29:26
  Impact, confidence
• 29:28
  or how confident are
• 29:28
  whether this is going to be tactful.
• 29:29
  You probably need to bring some data
• 29:31
  to that
• 29:32
  recommended
• 29:33
  and and then bring some evidence
• 29:35
  that should help inform impact.
• 29:36
  And then of course
• 29:37
  ease of implementation are like is
• 29:40
  like is a need to find some influencer
• 29:43
  that can really help specialize.
• 29:44
  All I can do we have existing
• 29:46
  is it can be roll
• 29:47
  that we can roll this out with like
• 29:48
  like what is the speed
• 29:50
  to kind of think of it as speed. Right.
• 29:52
  And I kind of
• 29:53
  want to have a bias
• 29:53
  towards implementation
• 29:54
  because you just want to have faster
• 29:56
  feedback loops.
• 29:57
  And so then you score it up,
• 29:59
  the Italian army
• 30:00
  is going to list of all CPS,
• 30:01
  and you just tell it upfront
• 30:03
  and then you just execute based upon
• 30:05
  the talent.
• 30:06
  And so depending on
• 30:08
  so that's like one element.
• 30:10
  The other element would be so.
• 30:13
  So how do we quantify some of these five
• 30:16
  like ice. Right.
• 30:17
  So how do we quantify impact.
• 30:18
  The category point I would say
• 30:21
  impact is like how much can
• 30:24
  how much do we think we can spend.
• 30:26
  Like what is the Sep ten.
• 30:28
  Basically what is the category
• 30:30
  point title addressable market.
• 30:32
  It's like, okay, well that's a good way.
• 30:33
  Think about it.
• 30:34
  But like how do we quantify that.
• 30:35
  And so there's a few ways.
• 30:38
  One way is you can like go
• 30:41
  you can try and get some Google
• 30:43
  search data to support this.
• 30:44
  So that might be using
• 30:45
  Google Trends or Google Ads
• 30:46
  and search data.
• 30:48
  And you can get like
• 30:49
  okay well we see that like noisy
• 30:54
  like noisy kids on a flight or like, like
• 30:57
  or how like the different variations
• 30:59
  of like noisy children on flights
• 31:01
  stop noisy children on flight.
• 31:02
  Maybe there's like a lot of people
• 31:03
  searching that at any moment
• 31:06
  in time went on a flight.
• 31:08
  And so that would
• 31:09
  be one like one approach is like quantify
• 31:12
  search data.
• 31:13
  Another approach is like, well,
• 31:15
  maybe there's like a massive
• 31:18
  Reddit subreddit, unlike, like
• 31:22
  how to like snoring partners. Right.
• 31:23
  And so that's like
• 31:24
  like subscribers might be another data
• 31:26
  pretty loose,
• 31:27
  but like another data point,
• 31:28
  the Google trends
• 31:30
  like just just like what
• 31:31
  what is like the size of these.
• 31:33
  You know,
• 31:33
  maybe you could do the same for YouTube.
• 31:35
  You know,
• 31:36
  just like trying to find any data point.
• 31:38
  It could be like type of CP in the Google
• 31:40
  and like
• 31:40
  look how many pages appear for it, right?
• 31:42
  If there's like 5 billion versus
• 31:44
  like 100 billion like okay,
• 31:45
  maybe that's like another data point.
• 31:47
  And so you just like bring together
• 31:49
  like any data point
• 31:51
  you can without spending money first.
• 31:53
  If you can just spend money, great.
• 31:55
  Just like launch a bunch of static ads
• 31:57
  across different groups of CPS
• 31:58
  and just see
• 31:59
  like which one spans
• 32:00
  pretty pretty quickly or like what?
• 32:02
  Like can spend pretty quickly
• 32:04
  or pretty aggressively and then like,
• 32:06
  okay, that's it.
• 32:06
  Let's just double down on that
• 32:08
  to begin with.
• 32:09
  But like just try and bring some evidence
• 32:11
  and you know,
• 32:12
  that could be survey results as well.
• 32:14
  Just try and bring something. Right.
• 32:15
  There's kind of a lot of approaches
• 32:16
  that you can make.
• 32:17
  And so that would be like
• 32:18
  how like trying to size up the CP
• 32:20
  and like the sub CPS.
• 32:22
  It doesn't mean you have to like
• 32:23
  say let's say you got 50 CPS
• 32:25
  have to do this for everyone.
• 32:26
  But like maybe intuitively
• 32:28
  you might know that like, like one
• 32:32
  like festival is massive
• 32:33
  and like being anxious in
• 32:37
  nightclubs is not so massive.
• 32:40
  Right.
• 32:41
  And so maybe just kind of
• 32:43
  know that about your category.
• 32:44
  And so that's like part
• 32:45
  one sizing the town.
• 32:47
  And then part two is
• 32:48
  like how frequently do these occur
• 32:51
  as well.
• 32:51
  Should be another consideration.
• 32:52
  So like
• 32:53
  is this maybe the CP is once again right.
• 32:56
  So seasonality involve that.
• 32:58
  And it's like okay well they just
• 33:00
  they just buy it at Christmas
• 33:02
  or they just buy it for Valentine's Day.
• 33:03
  Like I don't buy roses.
• 33:05
  I should I should probably buy more.
• 33:07
  You should yes I should.
• 33:08
  Sure. Yeah.
• 33:09
  No great advice. Great, great.
• 33:11
  Buy more roses.
• 33:13
  That's a great point, right?
• 33:14
  That's like you should buy more roses.
• 33:18
  But like I by Reuters once a year.
• 33:20
  Right. That's it.
• 33:21
  And so that's a good example like well
• 33:25
  it's not free.
• 33:26
  Super frequent
• 33:26
  but Valentine's Day massive.
• 33:28
  So so you know the other
• 33:31
  so things that are frequently
• 33:32
  because one of the most important points
• 33:34
  upon like frequency of
• 33:36
  like how often is a frequency,
• 33:37
  how often is a CP encountered,
• 33:39
  how frequently is that?
• 33:41
  One thing I didn't mention before
• 33:43
  is that the more CPS
• 33:46
  that your brand is associated with,
• 33:49
  the higher your mental market share.
• 33:52
  So so so what I mean by that
• 33:53
  is, is say your brand is thought of in
• 33:56
  like 20 different.
• 33:57
  So say there's like 50 different CPS
• 34:00
  within the category.
• 34:00
  Right. And you've done some survey.
• 34:03
  You've done
• 34:03
  there's lots of surveys
• 34:04
  that you can do to like
• 34:05
  kind of get this data and
• 34:09
  there's like like a
• 34:10
  so this is one of the most
• 34:13
  this is one of
• 34:14
  the most like replicated studies
• 34:16
  in all of marketing science.
• 34:18
  Is that the, the
• 34:20
  the more mental market share
• 34:21
  that your brand has within the category.
• 34:23
  So the more times you're thought
• 34:25
  of in buying situations
• 34:28
  to hire your sales market share,
• 34:30
  there's like a direct
• 34:31
  like linear regression
• 34:33
  of like sales market share on the y axis
• 34:36
  and on the x axis,
• 34:37
  you have mental market share.
• 34:39
  And it's just like,
• 34:40
  so you're not thought of very much,
• 34:42
  then you don't have very much
• 34:43
  like sales much
• 34:44
  you're thought of like a lot.
• 34:46
  Well guess what.
• 34:46
  You like make a lot of sales.
• 34:48
  And so, there are
• 34:50
  there are no big brands
• 34:51
  that are not thought of a lot.
• 34:52
  There are no small brands
• 34:53
  that are, are like,
• 34:57
  not sort of
• 34:58
  what I think
• 34:58
  I might have messed it up,
• 34:59
  but you get the idea. Right?
• 35:00
  And so the playbook is pretty clear.
• 35:02
  It's like, well,
• 35:03
  if you want to be a big brand,
• 35:05
  like you just have to
• 35:06
  be thought of
• 35:07
  and lots of different buying situations.
• 35:09
  And then the obvious extension of that
• 35:11
  is, well,
• 35:12
  you're creative, has to be talking
• 35:13
  to a lot of different personas
• 35:15
  and has to be
• 35:16
  deep in those personas
• 35:18
  of all the different situations.
• 35:19
  It's not the only creative
• 35:20
  you should do, but it should be.
• 35:21
  It should.
• 35:22
  So to be clear,
• 35:23
  CPS are a framework to approach
• 35:27
  creative strategy.
• 35:28
  They're not the only like you need,
• 35:30
  you know, like what's a founder
• 35:32
  that's not a CP,
• 35:33
  that's like probably like a
• 35:34
  like a trust building exercise. Right.
• 35:36
  So you you typically need
• 35:39
  you need in your creative,
• 35:41
  you need attributes
• 35:43
  that are associated with the category.
• 35:44
  You might be quality lifetime
• 35:46
  like warranty might be
• 35:48
  like trust, it might be,
• 35:51
  taste or something like that.
• 35:52
  Like these attributes are just associated
• 35:54
  with the category.
• 35:56
  You need those as ads as well.
• 35:58
  You need salads, right.
• 35:59
  You need other ads.
• 36:00
  But CPS should, in my view,
• 36:02
  make up the majority of an ad account
• 36:05
  greater than 50%, maybe closer to 6070,
• 36:09
  80% of the total, total
• 36:11
  total ad account in spend.
• 36:13
  So to get back to the original point.
• 36:16
  So there's there's size up the CP
• 36:19
  with the various data points on Tam,
• 36:21
  size up the frequency,
• 36:22
  how often that is used,
• 36:23
  is it just seasonal once a year
• 36:25
  or is it like every week, every like
• 36:27
  maybe every month or something.
• 36:29
  And then like,
• 36:30
  how suitable is your brand
• 36:32
  to approach that?
• 36:34
  CP what like how
• 36:37
  how well fit is your brand
• 36:38
  to like fit in with
• 36:40
  within the context of those category
• 36:42
  entry points?
• 36:43
  So, you know, maybe like Mount
• 36:46
  Franklin water
• 36:48
  or like whatever,
• 36:49
  like water brand
• 36:51
  that you might be familiar with.
• 36:52
  I can't think of any others
• 36:53
  besides Liquid Death, Mount Franklin,
• 36:55
  maybe 3G water.
• 36:56
  I don't know what water brands you have.
• 36:57
  Besides liquid death,
• 36:59
  liquid death is, like,
• 37:01
  suitable for, like,
• 37:01
  heavy metal concerts and like, like,
• 37:04
  like kind of extreme.
• 37:05
  It's kind of position of self,
• 37:06
  like I'm extreme.
• 37:07
  And of course you need
• 37:08
  more knowledge situations, but maybe,
• 37:10
  maybe other brands are more suitable
• 37:11
  to be go
• 37:13
  after those like generic situations.
• 37:15
  Although I think loops done
• 37:16
  a pretty good job
• 37:17
  going off after this too.
• 37:18
  So they're the main ones.
• 37:19
  It's like size, the CP in terms of CPM,
• 37:22
  how frequency is it used
• 37:24
  and like
• 37:24
  what is your brand fit for that CP
• 37:26
  and that that's
• 37:28
  a really good mental model for life.
• 37:30
  Yeah.
• 37:31
  So it gives you a perspective on
• 37:32
  if you can't start everywhere,
• 37:33
  if you can't just go
• 37:34
  YOLO product
• 37:35
  to a bunch of creators
• 37:35
  because maybe your product is expensive,
• 37:37
  it gives you a starting point
• 37:38
  to say, okay,
• 37:39
  it was like something
• 37:40
  interesting in there
• 37:41
  about like the frequency
• 37:41
  point is,
• 37:42
  well, people sleep every single night
• 37:44
  and a lot of people
• 37:45
  sleep every single night.
• 37:46
  That doesn't mean
• 37:46
  everybody needs earplugs
• 37:47
  every single night.
• 37:47
  But there's a lot of people.
• 37:49
  100% of human beings need to sleep.
• 37:51
  There's a subset of those people
• 37:52
  that there's loud noises, you know,
• 37:54
  whatever that they want to control for.
• 37:56
  Whereas like concerts, they happen a lot.
• 37:59
  And a lot of people go to concerts,
• 38:00
  but they don't.
• 38:01
  Maybe they only individually
• 38:02
  go to concerts one a year.
• 38:03
  So that gives you some, you know,
• 38:04
  you can ask your
• 38:05
  you can ask the LM to your point.
• 38:07
  Well, how many concerts
• 38:08
  are there year in the US okay.
• 38:09
  And then yeah, exactly
• 38:11
  what types of concerts
• 38:11
  are people going into.
• 38:12
  And that's where, you know,
• 38:13
  individual creative can start to speak
• 38:14
  to individual types of people.
• 38:15
  And you can
• 38:16
  you can go through that, that web.
• 38:18
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 38:19
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 38:20
  There's a lot of ways
• 38:21
  to kind of approach this.
• 38:23
  But but the point.
• 38:24
  The point is, is just start
• 38:26
  like just start,
• 38:27
  get some data
• 38:28
  and use that to help inform
• 38:29
  what you do next.
• 38:31
  Yeah.
• 38:31
  And so okay, so you
• 38:32
  you mentioned like statics
• 38:34
  I have a couple of questions
• 38:35
  that are all maybe all interconnected.
• 38:37
  It's all dumped them all at once.
• 38:38
  And we need to tackle them one at a time.
• 38:39
  We can.
• 38:40
  But it's kind of like okay,
• 38:42
  if you're rolling it out,
• 38:43
  you know, a lot of brands
• 38:44
  that are listening to this are seven
• 38:45
  trying to push to eight figures.
• 38:46
  And so, you know,
• 38:47
  maybe they already have
• 38:48
  something in their account,
• 38:49
  but they're trying to unlock more stuff.
• 38:50
  So your point was
• 38:52
  maybe
• 38:52
  statics is a really good starting point,
• 38:53
  because you can be clear
• 38:54
  about the message
• 38:54
  that you're trying to communicate
• 38:56
  your forces
• 38:57
  you to be really good at understanding
• 38:58
  the category entry point
• 38:59
  and who you're speaking to
• 39:00
  so you can communicate to them clearly.
• 39:02
  So statics is a
• 39:03
  really good starting point.
• 39:04
  So I'm curious about like
• 39:06
  is that is that the playbook
• 39:06
  is the start with that.
• 39:07
  Then go to content creators and do this.
• 39:09
  That's that's kind of the first piece.
• 39:10
  The second piece is
• 39:12
  tracking it in general.
• 39:13
  Like how does it show up
• 39:14
  in the attic counts.
• 39:15
  Do you,
• 39:15
  do you throw a naming convention
• 39:16
  for SEPs.
• 39:17
  You let motions
• 39:18
  AI tag it and just like roll
• 39:19
  with what it does.
• 39:21
  And then the final thing is like
• 39:22
  and this is a little bit out there,
• 39:24
  but the frequency of it, it's like
• 39:25
  when do you come back and revisit,
• 39:26
  say shit, do I need more of these?
• 39:28
  Like,
• 39:28
  how far can one individual and take me?
• 39:30
  So there's a lot in there,
• 39:31
  but maybe we start with the statics
• 39:33
  and yeah,
• 39:34
  because we have a notebook
• 39:35
  to write the questions.
• 39:36
  And so let's stop.
• 39:38
  Please, please do that. It's fine.
• 39:39
  Just get it
• 39:39
  like off roader
• 39:40
  and let's just tackle them one by one.
• 39:42
  So let's start with the statics.
• 39:45
  I think that if it depends on it
• 39:49
  always depends on on
• 39:50
  in this case resources. Right.
• 39:52
  And so
• 39:53
  if you are like a seven in
• 39:55
  every brand is constrained.
• 39:56
  You know, UDI
• 39:57
  was going to train with resources.
• 39:58
  We don't know like you know 100mg.
• 40:01
  Every brand has constraints
• 40:02
  and constraints are different.
• 40:05
  So if you're just starting out
• 40:06
  I think the practical view
• 40:07
  is start with statics from your CP,
• 40:11
  research that call out the situation
• 40:13
  and then show show the situation.
• 40:16
  So to make make sure the ad is like
• 40:18
  that in that regard.
• 40:19
  And it is obvious what the CP is. Right.
• 40:22
  And so so start there.
• 40:24
  And it's more costly to start there.
• 40:27
  There's tools that can help you generate
• 40:29
  these ads as well
• 40:31
  in like a very cost effective manner.
• 40:34
  And I think I think you can just
• 40:37
  you can get some feedback quicker.
• 40:41
  Maybe it takes you a day or two
• 40:44
  to like kind of
• 40:44
  get these ads up and running.
• 40:45
  So get them up running,
• 40:47
  get some feedback.
• 40:48
  And then
• 40:49
  so that is like
• 40:50
  if you're trying to be
• 40:51
  a bit more conservative
• 40:52
  on this approach,
• 40:53
  and then use that feedback to either
• 40:57
  like make
• 40:58
  spending or scaling decisions based upon
• 41:01
  like what you see in a either at the
• 41:04
  ad account,
• 41:04
  if you don't have
• 41:06
  the creative analytics tool,
• 41:07
  or would you have a creative analytics
• 41:08
  to make sure you have,
• 41:10
  like the appropriate naming conventions?
• 41:11
  And I'll go over that in a second.
• 41:13
  But that's like part one, part two.
• 41:15
  And of course, you don't have to do this.
• 41:16
  Like if you just have the resources
• 41:18
  and the creative team in place,
• 41:19
  like, yes,
• 41:21
  that is a good launch statics,
• 41:22
  but like launch video as well.
• 41:24
  Right?
• 41:25
  Thing video is always going to probably
• 41:28
  perform better with these problem
• 41:31
  kind of solutions
• 41:32
  because you just had more time
• 41:33
  to like educate and like,
• 41:37
  like demonstrate the problem
• 41:39
  and show the solution.
• 41:41
  You just have more time.
• 41:43
  I would go
• 41:43
  like if
• 41:44
  you can really get statics to scale,
• 41:46
  like it's
• 41:46
  pretty impressive
• 41:47
  because you just have like such
• 41:49
  a, you know, you have a square,
• 41:53
  you know, it's a really communicate.
• 41:55
  You have a very, very limited space.
• 41:57
  But but but you can scout.
• 41:58
  So start there.
• 41:59
  You can
• 42:00
  if you have a creative team
• 42:01
  just like
• 42:01
  go through the approach
• 42:02
  of creating videos, bro.
• 42:04
  Or like source creatives, creators,
• 42:08
  if you need to get additional content
• 42:11
  that you don't have already.
• 42:12
  But but the point is,
• 42:13
  is like
• 42:14
  start with something,
• 42:15
  get some feedback
• 42:16
  loop in place and make sure you have,
• 42:20
  I guess, appropriate
• 42:21
  underlying infrastructure.
• 42:23
  And this is actually where
• 42:24
  I like to start.
• 42:24
  So what I mean by that is a
• 42:29
  part of what I do in my like,
• 42:31
  role as a fractional team.
• 42:33
  I have this product
• 42:34
  service called Draco's cool name.
• 42:37
  My last name
• 42:38
  plus operating system
• 42:39
  is my operating system.
• 42:40
  It's beautiful.
• 42:41
  It's my brain system over the years,
• 42:42
  and part of that operating system
• 42:44
  is how I approach creative strategy.
• 42:47
  And I'm definitely
• 42:48
  not a creative strategist.
• 42:50
  I've never been a creative strategist.
• 42:52
  I don't think I've ever, ever,
• 42:54
  you know,
• 42:54
  written a brief,
• 42:55
  but but I know how brief is written.
• 42:58
  I've helped
• 42:59
  train people in this CP framework.
• 43:01
  Right.
• 43:01
  How how do I approach creative strategy?
• 43:04
  And the best place to start is having a
• 43:08
  the right analytics
• 43:09
  infrastructure to understand
• 43:11
  how these graves are performing. Right.
• 43:12
  So start with like like defining
• 43:17
  what are the naming convention,
• 43:18
  what is the data points that we need
• 43:20
  to be able to extract?
• 43:23
  In our creative analytics
• 43:24
  tool to help us make decisions.
• 43:25
  And so for me
• 43:26
  that is just some examples of someone's
• 43:30
  the ability
• 43:31
  people's have is like,
• 43:32
  what is like the the product?
• 43:35
  What is the awareness stage
• 43:36
  like problem
• 43:37
  where solution aware and aware.
• 43:39
  Brand aware unaware.
• 43:42
  What is like the persona
• 43:44
  if you want to start there.
• 43:45
  Like what is the persona retargeting?
• 43:47
  What is the category entry point
• 43:49
  within the persona that we're targeting?
• 43:50
  So if the persona slate,
• 43:52
  the category
• 43:53
  two point would be story partner
• 43:55
  and and then you'd have
• 43:56
  like the the angle.
• 43:58
  So how would you approach
• 43:59
  a story partner ad.
• 44:00
  And of course there's lots of ways
• 44:01
  to approach story partner
• 44:03
  ad it can be lying awake,
• 44:04
  not being out of sleep.
• 44:05
  It might be tossing and turning.
• 44:07
  It might be like throwing items at you.
• 44:09
  You know what?
• 44:10
  Like elbows. Yeah.
• 44:12
  Yeah, there's lots of.
• 44:13
  So there's lots of angles.
• 44:14
  You can do a story, partner. Right.
• 44:17
  You know,
• 44:17
  you know,
• 44:18
  there's a lot more creative people
• 44:20
  than me that could approach a lot better.
• 44:22
  So there's lots of action either angle.
• 44:24
  And then of course you need like,
• 44:26
  what format is that? Like an AI.
• 44:28
  Like an AI type as it has it like
• 44:31
  or like you just UGC or is like,
• 44:34
  you know,
• 44:35
  all the different formats
• 44:36
  that everyone's kind of
• 44:36
  seen and what type of, you know, like
• 44:39
  is it like problem
• 44:40
  solution, is it like educational?
• 44:43
  Like is it the five reasons.
• 44:45
  Like what's the type of
• 44:46
  ad in that regard?
• 44:48
  And then the type of talent
• 44:49
  is, is a like an actor is a high
• 44:53
  five that you just see what editor
• 44:56
  you get.
• 44:57
  What's the offer?
• 44:58
  What is you know,
• 44:59
  you get you get the idea.
• 45:00
  So you can just keep going quiet.
• 45:02
  You know, into detail.
• 45:04
  But I guess the main ones
• 45:05
  are like persona CP when a stage format.
• 45:08
  And from there you can probably,
• 45:12
  you know, from the CP perspective.
• 45:13
  Anyway, I think that's mostly important.
• 45:16
  And then from there,
• 45:18
  so you so you then like tag,
• 45:20
  make sure the naming
• 45:20
  conventions are set up.
• 45:21
  You define like these are
• 45:23
  these are the signs, these are seps.
• 45:25
  And this is how we define that.
• 45:27
  And make sure the team understands that.
• 45:28
  And then of course you
• 45:30
  then roll out across any new ads
• 45:31
  that are uploaded with meta.
• 45:33
  And you just make sure this communicates
• 45:35
  the media by, hey,
• 45:36
  like use
• 45:36
  these naming conventions and,
• 45:38
  and of course you have
• 45:39
  like a period of time where
• 45:40
  maybe you implement this framework.
• 45:42
  We have a combination of old ads
• 45:44
  that don't have these conventions,
• 45:45
  and you have new ads
• 45:46
  that do have these names.
• 45:47
  Of course,
• 45:48
  you can just go
• 45:48
  and like retroactively tag
• 45:50
  some of these in the tools to,
• 45:52
  to kind of massive assignments.
• 45:54
  But what you'll see very quickly is
• 45:56
  so you have your creative analytics tool,
• 45:58
  you can now set up
• 45:59
  custom reports
• 45:59
  in the creative analytics tool
• 46:01
  like okay let's look at awareness stage.
• 46:02
  All right.
• 46:03
  And then look at how they perform
• 46:05
  over time
• 46:05
  I like to look at like the over time
• 46:07
  charts of how things perform.
• 46:09
  Because
• 46:10
  because the averages are just misleading.
• 46:11
  So you're like let's look at 90 days
• 46:13
  worth of data.
• 46:14
  It's just like biased towards,
• 46:16
  you know, the, the maybe,
• 46:19
  maybe this worst performance
• 46:20
  past seven days and you really want
• 46:22
  so or bottom of
• 46:23
  because you just had a problem
• 46:24
  or something.
• 46:25
  Yeah. Exactly.
• 46:26
  So you want to look at over time
• 46:27
  you will look at the changes in the data
• 46:30
  over time.
• 46:30
  So so spans or like frequency
• 46:33
  like CPM, like CPM or like you know,
• 46:37
  new new visitors like like whatever.
• 46:40
  Like there's
• 46:41
  there's a few metrics that could mean
• 46:43
  I should be looking at to help
• 46:44
  make them decisions with a scanner.
• 46:46
  But like,
• 46:47
  like the most important part is
• 46:49
  you have the ability
• 46:49
  to aggregate
• 46:50
  this data and filter this data
• 46:52
  in your analytics tool.
• 46:53
  And so that would be like
• 46:54
  what the owners are doing that
• 46:56
  you can click click the breakdown.
• 46:57
  What are the different sets
• 46:58
  associated with those personas.
• 47:00
  And you just like get some feedback.
• 47:02
  You have a structured way to
• 47:03
  go in there and get some feedback.
• 47:05
  It's like,
• 47:06
  oh well, we see this CP for the past
• 47:09
  like 30 days has been spending
• 47:12
  like 60% of the ad account.
• 47:14
  Right. And it's been scaling out.
• 47:16
  That's great.
• 47:16
  Like like we're going
• 47:18
  to put some disproportionate
• 47:19
  focus on that
• 47:19
  because we know we've practice now.
• 47:22
  Like we're going to
• 47:23
  like like I like to explore exploit
• 47:25
  like 80%.
• 47:26
  Like 20% explore
• 47:28
  like what are these different CPC
• 47:30
  and exploit.
• 47:30
  Like I go deep. We've got one.
• 47:32
  Let's let's go.
• 47:32
  Let's roll
• 47:33
  out of different formats,
• 47:34
  different angles, etc..
• 47:36
  And I do all the different pieces
• 47:38
  associated with
• 47:39
  like that persona as well.
• 47:40
  And, and
• 47:41
  I think that's a good way to think about
• 47:42
  it is
• 47:43
  like you should always try to be
• 47:44
  crack new designers and new SEPs,
• 47:47
  but there's always a
• 47:48
  limited number of resources you can,
• 47:50
  and you should always be
• 47:51
  trying to protect your existing category.
• 47:54
  Entry points
• 47:55
  to a like reinforce
• 47:57
  those to like customers.
• 47:59
  Potential customers
• 48:01
  who haven't purchased yet
• 48:02
  and be like people
• 48:04
  come like in and out of the category
• 48:05
  all the time.
• 48:06
  So it's not like a static
• 48:07
  like you're in the category now
• 48:08
  and that's it.
• 48:09
  Like you buy a car
• 48:10
  once you leave off, like,
• 48:12
  you know, five years, maybe, maybe
• 48:14
  come back again.
• 48:15
  So, so yeah.
• 48:16
  So that was like,
• 48:18
  you need the data infrastructure.
• 48:19
  You need the
• 48:22
  what was some of the other things
• 48:24
  you talked about, like the,
• 48:25
  the cadence piece was kind of like
• 48:27
  that's actually what you started
• 48:28
  to, to go towards
• 48:29
  from a cadence
• 48:30
  perspective is my two follow up
• 48:32
  pieces was was kind of like the cadence
• 48:34
  for revisiting these things.
• 48:35
  And you kind of
• 48:36
  said the 8020 of explorer and Exploit.
• 48:39
  Yeah.
• 48:39
  Because I think the
• 48:40
  problem that I see at tone is like
• 48:42
  brands will have somebody
• 48:43
  that works really well
• 48:44
  and then they're like,
• 48:45
  cool, I need something again like that.
• 48:46
  It's like, well, no,
• 48:47
  you should just make 90 more ads
• 48:48
  that say the same thing,
• 48:49
  basically just in slightly different ways
• 48:51
  with different creators
• 48:52
  and different types of things.
• 48:53
  Yeah.
• 48:53
  So I think that's
• 48:54
  but on the flip side of
• 48:55
  that is people
• 48:56
  make the mistake of
• 48:57
  they get obsessive over
• 48:58
  just the one thing.
• 48:59
  You can take one thing very far. Right?
• 49:01
  We talk about this all the time
• 49:03
  and how it's like hunters
• 49:04
  worked for a very long time
• 49:06
  until he needed to open up his his cep
• 49:08
  tam that, you got to call it earlier.
• 49:11
  And so, you know,
• 49:12
  I think there's on both ends.
• 49:13
  That problem kind of exists.
• 49:14
  I think knowing how to to to balance
• 49:17
  that is tricky. But yeah.
• 49:19
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 49:20
  Because it's like the sorry,
• 49:23
  the framework should always be like
• 49:27
  to become a big brand.
• 49:28
  You just need to own as many categories
• 49:30
  as possible, not own them.
• 49:31
  You just
• 49:32
  you just need to be thought of
• 49:34
  in those situations. Right.
• 49:35
  And and so that's the important part.
• 49:37
  So so like you just have to do it.
• 49:39
  The question is like how you approach it.
• 49:41
  And so I just like
• 49:43
  like you do a bunch of stuff
• 49:45
  across all these personas
• 49:47
  and you're like,
• 49:47
  oh this one's like really scaling, right?
• 49:49
  Let's just like
• 49:50
  put some disproportionate effort there.
• 49:53
  This one is like showing some promise.
• 49:55
  Let's put some effort there.
• 49:57
  This one is like not working or
• 49:59
  all right, let's pop that.
• 50:00
  Let's just focus on these two from now.
• 50:03
  Right.
• 50:03
  And it's just it's just like the like
• 50:05
  always like e-commerce.
• 50:06
  Just like this game where you're like,
• 50:08
  you know,
• 50:08
  you go to the circus
• 50:09
  and there's like the guy
• 50:10
  who spins the plates, right?
• 50:12
  And he's like, he spins the place.
• 50:13
  And he's like, over here.
• 50:15
  He's like, over there.
• 50:16
  He's like, oh.
• 50:17
  And like,
• 50:17
  that's you just gotta
• 50:18
  like the multi-armed bandit, right?
• 50:20
  You just gotta, like,
• 50:21
  you just gotta find an approach
• 50:23
  that works where you do that.
• 50:24
  And for me, that's kind of the,
• 50:26
  you know, 20% explore, 80% exploit.
• 50:29
  Maybe it's like changes to 60, 40
• 50:31
  or like whatever.
• 50:33
  But, yeah, there's no like actual,
• 50:35
  I don't know what is the best approach,
• 50:38
  but but 8020
• 50:39
  seems like an appropriate way
• 50:41
  to think about it. Yeah.
• 50:42
  I think picking something
• 50:43
  and then
• 50:44
  actually tracking your effort against
• 50:45
  it is probably more valuable
• 50:47
  than getting stuck
• 50:47
  on the actual specific percentages.
• 50:49
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 50:49
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 50:50
  Is what you're doing
• 50:51
  a good point is what you're doing
• 50:54
  scaling spend
• 50:55
  and bringing like new contribution
• 50:57
  dollars to your business.
• 50:58
  If so like keep keep doing that.
• 51:01
  Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
• 51:02
  And then and then there's more ways
• 51:03
  to continue to push into it from there.
• 51:05
  It's like okay great.
• 51:05
  You've got a category
• 51:06
  entry point working.
• 51:07
  Can you build a landing page
• 51:09
  that's consistent with that.
• 51:10
  Can you actually make a product
• 51:11
  that is better like,
• 51:12
  you know, for this category
• 51:13
  and there's a bunch of different
• 51:14
  depth pieces
• 51:15
  and maybe we'll have to have a part
• 51:16
  two where we talk
• 51:16
  about all those different depth pieces
• 51:17
  that you can do.
• 51:18
  Because we could talk
• 51:19
  probably talk about that endlessly.
• 51:20
  And I know back to loop.
• 51:22
  If we round this out with loop
• 51:23
  Alex is doing that right now.
• 51:24
  He's taking
• 51:25
  and I think they historically
• 51:26
  they've built,
• 51:27
  you know, products for customers
• 51:29
  and they've had pages for customers.
• 51:31
  But really
• 51:31
  it sounds like
• 51:32
  they're really getting back
• 51:32
  into actually building landing pages
• 51:34
  that line up with their top
• 51:35
  performing ads.
• 51:36
  And you also kind of said
• 51:37
  it's the beginning.
• 51:38
  Like it's just getting back
• 51:39
  to actually like doing marketing.
• 51:40
  It's like, oh yeah, it
• 51:41
  turns out
• 51:42
  actually just
• 51:42
  like talking to your customer
• 51:43
  consistently throughout the funnel works.
• 51:45
  So yeah, great crazy idea.
• 51:47
  It's
• 51:48
  so I learned this about loop
• 51:49
  actually, is that they start off
• 51:51
  as a festival brand
• 51:52
  and like crazy thought,
• 51:55
  you know, through talking to customers.
• 51:57
  Right.
• 51:57
  And through like researching
• 51:59
  and reading comments,
• 52:00
  they found out that people were using
• 52:03
  that product natively
• 52:04
  across these other situations.
• 52:05
  And then they're like,
• 52:06
  oh, well, we probably need to like,
• 52:09
  you know, I'm not sure if they launched
• 52:10
  like a specific product for like,
• 52:12
  like quiet and whatever straight away.
• 52:14
  Maybe like it was just like,
• 52:15
  let's position
• 52:16
  this existing product to do that.
• 52:18
  And then the extension of that is,
• 52:20
  well, let's have
• 52:21
  a dedicated product to that.
• 52:22
  And that's like the natural extension.
• 52:24
  It's like
• 52:25
  product solves problem
• 52:27
  in like a JSON category.
• 52:29
  Maybe there's like no
• 52:31
  within the category that requires
• 52:33
  some special features,
• 52:34
  attributes to the product, modify
• 52:36
  the product,
• 52:37
  or maybe launch a new product and
• 52:39
  and and there's okay.
• 52:41
  Well how does that help inform
• 52:42
  other things like media buying.
• 52:44
  So I guess,
• 52:45
  you know,
• 52:45
  we mostly talk about meta
• 52:47
  in that context.
• 52:48
  But like you can buy media,
• 52:52
  you can put a big, big banner up
• 52:54
  on a buildable border like a concert.
• 52:56
  Right?
• 52:56
  You can buy, you can,
• 52:58
  you can buy TV,
• 52:59
  you can buy radio to do announcements.
• 53:02
  So, so like,
• 53:03
  you know, it like extends like a no loop.
• 53:05
  Just did like
• 53:06
  a Tomorrowland partnership. Right.
• 53:08
  And so like
• 53:08
  great example of category expansion.
• 53:11
  You extend your media buying
• 53:15
  or your
• 53:16
  partnerships with
• 53:17
  within the context
• 53:18
  of the category of your point as well.
• 53:19
  So that's like how you kind of expand it.
• 53:21
  Yeah.
• 53:22
  There's like unending depth
• 53:23
  to what you can do now.
• 53:25
  Does it always work is the
• 53:26
  you know, that's up for debate.
• 53:27
  But there's, there's there's always
• 53:28
  there's always places that you can go
• 53:30
  and direction that you can take.
• 53:31
  Sweet I want to confirm.
• 53:33
  So your time and now it's
• 53:34
  we're on very different
• 53:35
  sides of the world.
• 53:36
  This was incredible.
• 53:37
  And I know there's a lot of other things
• 53:38
  that that you do like
• 53:40
  this is just a small piece of,
• 53:41
  of of the Draco's I'm sure.
• 53:43
  So is there anything, you know curious.
• 53:46
  Like what brands do you, you know,
• 53:47
  do you do your best work with?
• 53:48
  Where can people find you?
• 53:49
  Is there anything else
• 53:50
  that you want to leave people
• 53:51
  with before we sign out?
• 53:53
  Yeah, I work with eight figure brands.
• 53:57
  I know figure brands.
• 53:59
  I this Draco's system, it is basically
• 54:03
  a framework
• 54:03
  of how
• 54:04
  I think about marketing operations.
• 54:07
  So so creating a strategy,
• 54:08
  being marketing operations
• 54:10
  like 12 month financial forecast
• 54:12
  or marketing forecasts,
• 54:14
  like how much
• 54:14
  can you spend
• 54:15
  your forecast like merchandizing,
• 54:18
  marketing,
• 54:19
  calendar planning and planning
• 54:21
  and like how do you like create
• 54:22
  a feedback loop across all of that?
• 54:23
  And that's essentially Draco's.
• 54:26
  I talk about this
• 54:27
  and a lot more on my Twitter.
• 54:28
  Tyson Drake, please follow me there.
• 54:32
  Yeah.
• 54:33
  Contribute to my comments that be great.
• 54:36
  Get some more reach on
• 54:37
  CategoryCategory points.
• 54:39
  But yeah, that's where you can find
• 54:41
  I don't go on LinkedIn at all, really.
• 54:42
  I just find the terrible mistake.
• 54:45
  Yeah, I find the conversation,
• 54:48
  more sophisticated
• 54:49
  and more fun on Twitter.
• 54:51
  So that's where I like to hang out.
• 54:52
  Yeah, I completely agree.
• 54:54
  Well, we really appreciate your time.
• 54:55
  If you're listening to this,
• 54:56
  please drop us a subscription.
• 54:58
  Would appreciate that as well.
• 54:59
  And thanks for joining us.
• 55:01
  Appreciate your time. Awesome.
• 55:02
  Thanks, Brad. Take care.
• 55:07
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• 55:07
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• 55:10
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• 55:30
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• 55:31
  Yeah, please go check us out on YouTube.
• 55:33
  Rack up those views for us.
• 55:34
  We'd love to see it and then subscribe.
• 55:36
  Make sure to subscribe on YouTube
• 55:37
  as well.
• 55:37
  And I relentlessly
• 55:38
  refresh the YouTube comments
• 55:39
  because it dictates
• 55:40
  my mental health for the day.
• 55:41
  So please say something
• 55:42
  nice about all of us.
• 55:44
  Thank you everyone.
• 55:45
  Thanks for listening. Honestly.