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Resilience Trap: How Perfectionism Anxiety Becomes Burnout · Work Stress Anxiety | Burnout Prevention & Work Anxiety Help

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Work Stress Anxiety.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Cheryl Paris and I've got a wonderful guest, Dr.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Vanessa Laveau-Richmond, a clinical neuropsychologist who can help us better understand what's going on in our heads and the emotional costs of hard things.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get to it.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, it's Cheryl here and you're listening to Work, Stress, Anxiety.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hope you're having a really good day.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I am very privileged to have an amazing guest with me today, someone I know you're going to love.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Vanessa.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Vanessa.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, thank you so much.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to be here again.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining me.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Vanessa, I wanted to start and ask you what is the, if you can, uh, do your best to explain, what's the difference between genuine uh resilience and simply tolerating something that we shouldn't be tolerating at work?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So resilience is our ability to adapt and manage difficult things, trauma, adversity, um, while also exhibiting strength and um being able to kind of make it through those things without losing yourself.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we want to be able to manage really hard times and still demonstrate strength and our individual self through that.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: But pushing through something that is hard can be a form of resilience.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: What I find often is that even though sometimes it can be resilience, sometimes it's the absence of making a really hard decision.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so we find ourselves just pushing through because the alternative seems like it would be harder, but it's not actually choosing to push through something that is worth being pushed through.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's just stuck, right?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: It, you know, there's pushing through because there's a goal and we're gonna push through and be strong.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, there's gonna be a good reason that we got through it.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then there are the things that we just tolerate because the idea of changing it is too overwhelming.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think in the workplace, the way we would see this is you know, you sign into a new position or a new job, and you realize immediately it's not the right fit.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's either not the skill set you thought you'd be utilizing all the time, or your boss is a psycho and wants you to work 120 hours a week, or the team that you're being put within is very toxic and the culture is like very depleting.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: I am an I understand that I have um a career and a position of privilege in that I can work for myself and I can make a lot of decisions.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm recognizing that many people cannot have that much say in their job, in their career as I might.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: That being said, the overwhelming majority of people that I work with that are badasses at work, that, you know, could leave, a lot of them will say to me, I just don't have the energy to find another job right now.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so they end up tolerating this very unhealthy workplace because they imagine it's gonna be harder to find another job without even trying.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And what ends up happening, I think, is that they stay in that position far too long until something breaks.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Either they're let go or they're literally, I've had so many patients that end up taking like a medical leave.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, once they're a little bit better, they find a new job.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it can be it can be incredibly hard to figure out the difference.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm hoping to be able to help your listeners, you know, do that today.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, um a few years ago, I would say I was burnt out.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I literally um was in an environment where I was just constantly fighting fires, or it felt like that all day, every day.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and even though I enjoy, even though I enjoyed the job, I remember I think it was like a Wednesday afternoon, and um it was just like one person, one more person was just rude to me, and I just went, I can't do this anymore.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um I was sorry, I was signed off by my doctor.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was off work for about maybe seven, eight months, and um I'll be honest with you, Vanessa, I I don't for the about the first two months, I didn't move off the sofa, I didn't wash.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um this is you know, this is a person who showers at least twice a day.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I I didn't I didn't I literally I can't even tell you when the beginning or the end of the day was because it was just it was just all of it was one big blur.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I probably did wash, I'm probably exaggerating, but do you know what I mean?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was like I was not interested in anything or anyone, and I felt I felt suicidal a lot of a lot of the time, and luckily for me, my daughter, she's she's grown up now, but she was very young, and she her her excitement for life kept me going.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Seeing her wanting and wanting, playing and constantly asking me why mummy this and why mummy that, and do you know what I mean?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Even though I was in that state of just not interested in myself, um seeing how bright and beautiful she was um kind of got me to a state where I thought, okay, I need to I need to sort my sort myself out.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that there are a lot of people who I think I think of myself as a capable person.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I'd like to think I'm a capable person, um who for whatever reason get close, I would say get close to I'll call it bur burnout.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's the technical name for what I experience, but they um they've invested so much to be where they are that they the thought of not being there seems worse than the alternative.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: What what can we say?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: What can you um suggest?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because um I don't like giving people advice.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things I I try not to do because the way that I see it, advice is coming from my experience, not their experience, but I like to give people suggestions, and I'm hoping that you can give my listeners suggestions, maybe one or two suggestions that they can think about that will help them create the kind of um the kind of environment around themselves where they can start moving towards the things that they want.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I I agree.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um what's interesting is at least um here in the States, there's always this kind of myth that therapists are giving their patients advice.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually not what we do at all.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: We're actually very highly discouraged from telling people how they should be making decisions.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I align with you there 100%.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm happy to give recommendations.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to that, I also want to give you some of the science behind why that is how everyone feels, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: The people that make those changes that don't get as stuck, they still have the experience.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're just managing it a little bit differently.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: In these moments where we are hating a job that we won't leave, or we're in a situation that it's almost easier just to keep doing those the tough situation than to change it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: The reason for that is our mind likes what it knows.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: So even if there is an alternative that is more optimistic, the brain and the mind still wants what it knows because it's predictable.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's no uh gamble, it just is what it is, even if it's rough.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so, in those moments when it's really hard to make a different decision, I would encourage people to take a minute and to just acknowledge, like, holy shit, this is really, this is I don't feel like I can leave.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that going to do this other thing would be worse, it would be harder, it would be whatever.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I'm gonna remind myself that it's gonna feel like this no matter what.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: There is not gonna be a better time or a different time where that's not the feeling.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really important to recognize for anyone where change always feels overwhelming.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter, even if you know it's gonna work out.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Change is always anxiety provoking.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if we are not letting that anxiety tell you a story that you can't, you're gonna be more likely to just consider it, right?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that's maybe that's part of it.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: What you're describing with your little girl at the time, your daughter, is really beautiful.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it highlights.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I came up with this, uh, with this framework called the forward method that we'll be going through in our next episode together.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but one of the steps in it is to try and understand life and your understanding from an outside perspective.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what your daughter gave you.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: She gave you what your life in that moment was outside of what you were experiencing.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why it gave you the capacity to experience life almost the way she was a little bit more, which pulled you out of whether it was burnout or maybe even some depression.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it sounds like it was a really, really, really hard time.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think it's really important for people to acknowledge any change at any time is going to be overwhelming.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's not going to be a better time for that.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's one.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Two, every single person is built to struggle.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: All of us.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: No one is supposed to be on this earth not struggling.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Our minds, our bodies, our brains are designed to be able to tolerate struggle because struggle is an absolute certainty.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so I want people to feel like they're capable of making it through hard things, not be positive, not you can do it.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's no.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Your body and your brain are equipped to do it.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Whether you feel like you can or not, maybe that's another conversation.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: But you can absolutely please say that again.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Please say that again.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Your mind, your brain, your body is equipped to get through hard things.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't feel like you can do it, that's separate.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's a different conversation.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's something else we can talk about and work through.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea that you can't, not true.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel like you can't, that's a different thing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just hearing you say that is um it is such a profound thing.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we we uh we almost uh are brought up in this uh almost fairy tale myth that life is supposed to be easy and straightforward and we're not supposed to have adversity and all the rest of it.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I mean we both know that's not true from our own personal experiences, but I all it one of the things that I always encourage people to do is do things that they feel that they can't do or they wouldn't even have thought about trying.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And um it's really interesting what you what you you you you said about um how that experience that my daughter gave me.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sort of looking at a picture of her now as a baby and just thinking about um how you know other people can can try and experience that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know you also have a a concept called uh brain dollars.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can you it briefly explain uh what that is?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it especially in the context of um the workplace.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: So brain dollars is based on the idea that everything our brain does costs it money.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: It costs some sort of investment.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if we are not making regular deposits, you are going to run out.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when things like burnout, exhaustion, mental health issues, even um, that's when these things start to arise.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so, in the workplace, if you have a very, very taxing job, it's critical that you are making regular investments throughout your day, deposits.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, the abilities that your mind is in charge of, that your brain is in charge of, are going to not be running as efficiently.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um people often compare our brains to muscles, and in some ways it is.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you practice certain skills, they get stronger, much the same as a muscle does.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: What's different though is that if you have a muscle that's fatiguing with extra effort, you can often make up the difference, or at least part of it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what happens with the brain.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: With the brain, when your brain starts to fatigue, it's going to fatigue.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And pushing is only going to be ineffective.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: But also, you know, something I this is maybe a little bit separate, but when we are pushing, pushing, pushing, we are also carrying more stress.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a lot of discomfort in that push.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Stress is not a bad thing, right?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: You just mentioned, like, you know, unfortunately, a lot of people go through life these days feeling like there should be no adversity, everything should be easy.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if anything's a little bit hard, it's wrong.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, like life is hard, life is complicated, it's messy.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Stress is fine as long as it's short-lived, or at least there's breaks in the amount of stress that you're feeling.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: The reason for that is that when we are feeling stress, the brain and the body has the stress response and we get cortisol that goes to our system.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Cortisol, when it's short-lived, will help you perform better.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: It'll help you focus better.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good, right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: You want cortisol if you're being chased by a bear.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: You want to be able to just run and just go as fast as your body can physically take you, and you want your reaction time to be very high.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a double-edged sword.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you are carrying stress for a very long time, that cortisol, that hormone, actually starts to affect the brain because your brain shouldn't actually be sitting in that stuff for that long.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: So when it does, all of a sudden your hippocampus, which is like the part of the brain that stores and um consolidates memory, that starts to actually um become a little bit more problematic and doesn't work as well.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Your concentration actually goes down, your body can actually start to like become more and more inflamed.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: So people start to experience pain, they start to feel like there's a lot more GI distress because that stress response is actually changing the physiology of their whole body, right?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so at work, if you are living just withdrawing all these brain dollars, one, it's gonna burn you out.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: But the other thing it's doing is it's changing the juice that your body is made up of.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: And because of that, you're not gonna be functioning long term as well as you think.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: But that happens very, very gradually.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so oftentimes we don't even notice until we've been doing it for quite some time, and then it takes a little bit of time to repair it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to listeners who are terrified of stopping or changing strategy that that would mean failure to them?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think when I when I think about your whole question and I'm and I'm imagining a person coming in with that whole picture, I think, I mean, this is maybe outside the scope of why I'm here, but the therapist in me is my first thought is why is change failure?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's the biggest problem with everything you described.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: The idea that this position or this job or this role specifically has to exist for you not to have failed, that's really tricky.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: That feels like that needs probably to be looked at.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because why is your success or why is failure being measured by this kind of this part of you that is not all of you?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think I think part of my brain is like, okay, there needs to be some work there.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of the person who is having a hard time considering change, I mentioned the forward method earlier.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know we'll be talking about that at another point.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things that's really applicable here, the first component of that, of that, um that method is we want to frame the problem.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: And you have three options when you do that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're either gonna fix it, you're gonna face it, or you're gonna forget it.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Every problem falls into one of those categories.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: We fix the things that have an easy solution.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's an action.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, if all of a sudden we lost Wi-Fi connection or the internet goes down, we have to figure out how to fix the internet.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: We restart the modem, we make sure the computer's plugged in, whatever it is.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: It fixes the problem.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're done.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to think about it anymore once it restarts.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna fix or we're gonna face.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Facing the things means that we are going to choose to tolerate discomfort for a very good goal.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't have a good goal, we don't push.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, if you have a uh a meeting with your boss and you want to ask for a raise because you've had a very productive year and um you feel like you deserve compensation for it, and you're very nervous about it.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it would be easier not to have the meeting.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: It would be easier to not even face the potential disappointment.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a really good goal.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because progress at work is very motivating.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: You deserve to be compensated for your time and your talent.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: We face that anxiety, we face that moment, we face that meeting.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: You push yourself to do it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: You push.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because the goal is really good.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: The last category is forget.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: You have to forget about the stressors or the problems that are unhealthy to accept.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have a job that you've had for a long time that's never gonna get better, that is making it hard for you to enjoy your daughter, that's making it hard for you to shower every day, that is waking you up at three o'clock in the morning because you're so nervous to go to work the next day.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: It might be hard to find another job, but it's going to be worth putting in the energy to look for it because it's unhealthy to accept that circumstance for the rest of your life if you don't have to.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I think for people that are really struggling, I would ask them, which category does your problem or does your stressor fall into?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Is it something you can fix?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: If it is, cool, fix it.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Don't wait anymore.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Fix it because those brain dollars are being depleted because you haven't fixed it yet.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: If it's something you need to face, go ahead, face it, push it.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: But once you meet your goal, you're not tolerating that discomfort anymore because then you're just hemorrhaging brain dollars for no reason.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that means if you go in and you ask for the raise and your boss is like, who do you think you are?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: If it feels like you're never gonna get promoted and you're never gonna be compensated fairly, is that a position we have to think about leaving?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a pivot in your career that we should continue, you know, to pursue?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we fix if we can, we face when we do, and then we forget the things that are unhealthy to accept.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And this would be asking for a different team to work under, if you need to switch managers, do we need to switch jobs?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a total career shift?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: There have been moments in my life where I have truly pivoted out of a career trajectory because it was killing my mental health.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: That happened with my um, after I graduated with my PhD, I got a very, very prestigious um fellowship.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: I knew within two weeks it was not the right fit.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, on paper, it was perfect.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then I got there and I was like, oh my God.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it took a lot.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, this could be something that maybe we talk about next time, but um, that was a time of my life where I thought I was throwing my whole career away if I left that fellowship.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I talked to someone who was very smart who helped me figure out what to do, and I ended up leaving.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the rest of my life has been hard and better because I made that decision.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: That job would have depleted me of everything I am if I had stayed, even though it was an amazing opportunity.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I knew myself and it wasn't for me.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so these are the moments where I think we just have to dig deep and just be honest with ourselves about what we can tolerate and what's maybe not the best to keep holding on to.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Vanessa, I would like to thank you for sharing that with us today.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the fact that you have given people something to think about.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: As we finish this episode, I want to thank you.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Vanessa.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: One small step you can take today is to ask yourself what is costing me brain dollars every day?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, the guest um details are always in the show notes.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Bye for now.