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Welcome to Field Notes: Meet our hosts · Field Notes: Creator-led Growth Podcast

• speaker-0: Field Notes is an unfiltered real look into influencer and brand marketing. We've got 20 years of combined experience and hundreds of millions of dollars under our belt. There's a lot to say about what's driving performance, where brands and creators are getting it right, and how the best teams are evolving. There's no gatekeeping here, just real life, real examples, all with a touch of spice and maybe some chaos. So let's yap. speaker-1: Well, in this first episode of Field Notes Podcast Edition, we're gonna be introducing you to ourselves. Because who the hell are we? Why why can we have an opinion on things? And why should you trust us? Because there are a lot of voices in this industry and we're a little biased, but we know a thing or two. So welcome. You're gonna meet us for the first time. Or maybe not the first time, maybe the second time, but you're gonna meet us today. speaker-0: Yeah, it feels kind of funny that we get to ask all these questions, but like we have a plethora of background behind the two of us. So I know. speaker-1: Well it's fun. It's fun too because like I know obviously a lot about your experience, but no one I feel like in their career, when they get to the point that we're at in their careers, can really like go back in time and be like, tell me about you know, like the five years that you were at Aloha felt like a decade. Why? You know, it's like those types like those types of stories are so invaluable to people that are just like trying to grow in their careers in general. You don't even have to be trying to be an influencer marketer, but real career stories are rarely told or they're just like way too much fluff. And we're allergic to fluff. So I'm really excited to just grill you. speaker-0: gosh, same, same. I feel like I get like little nuggets here and there every time we're together, but it's speaker-1: And when I was preparing for this too, I was like, ⁓ shit. Like I could totally I should ask Sarah about that. Or I could totally talk about that. And I also think, you know, buckle your seatbelts, because we're gonna end this interview with probably a new series we're gonna create called Hills All Die On. speaker-0: We'll speaker-1: Lot of them. So we got a lot of them. And this is just the first episode. So we're gonna have a lot more. You're in the hot seat, my girl. Tell me about your career. What was the well, let's even go like way back, not even post grad. What was the first working job you ever had? speaker-0: Jama Juice. I made smoothies. I made smoothies. I got hired by the Starbucks next door. So I'd wake up, I'd open Jama Juice, and then I'd have lunch for thirty minutes. And then I'd go work at Starbucks and I'd close Starbucks next door. ⁓ and then I would speaker-1: Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. Wow. What what was that like? speaker-0: Well, I am one of those people. I thought there was nothing I could ever do in my life ⁓ better than making smoothies. And then I started at Starbucks and I was like, whoa, there's no way I'm gonna be better at anything else than making coffee. I'm so good at making being very fast and efficient and making the best Starbucks drinks. And then I went into craft fancy coffee and I was like, this is it for me. Like I've won. I'm a fantastic barisa. ⁓ and so every like move in my career, I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be as good as I was at the other thing because I was so good at it. But I think that's just like my personality to get really, like, really niche invested in the one thing that I'm doing. And even from coffee shop to coffee shop, I was at one that was so initially so focused on making the best coffee, but then we were making our the best homemade syrups and the best gluten-free pastries and the best poached eggs and like On and on and on. And at a certain point when you're making the best everything, everything kind of falls flat. Like not everything can be the best. And so I actually left there to go to a coffee shop that only, only cared about making the best espresso. And that felt like so fulfilling to me. And so I feel like I kind of bring that through like the rest of my career is. speaker-1: I was about to say, like hearing that, it's exactly just like how you operate to this day. Because I obviously only know you for who you've been the last few years. But like this was a decade and a half ago that you were doing these jobs. And like that's like a that's a very defining and core principle of yours is to be really good at the thing that you want to be really good at, which I think a lot of people think that they should be masters of you're a master of everything, you're a master of none. So I very much admire that quality of work. It's like I was like, girl, you apply on your barista skills to the in this day and age. Like that's crazy. ⁓ Okay, so then from Jumba juice to Starbucks to baristaing, like what was your first like corporate e job? ⁓ speaker-0: Well, I studied at the same time. I was studying ⁓ design and advertising, ⁓ at a small private school, ⁓ which ⁓ I feel like I'm like one of the few people I know in this industry that like studied something that like kind of correlates to like what we do. speaker-1: Literally got had a got a degree in English literature, so speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, or communications is another one that I hear a lot. But yeah, so I studied yeah, very specific. ⁓ and I started my career as a graphic designer, ⁓ wanting to do like design and advertising, what I studied. and I was literally working at I had I had a breakdown when I graduated because I was like, ⁓ gosh, like speaker-1: Very specific. speaker-0: I d don't really know what to do. I'll switch coffee shops. And that's when I switched to that really specific coffee shop. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, what am I like literally, what am I gonna do? And fun fact, I actually only graduated with my AA, even though I was in school for six years. And my mom made me sign a contract with her that if I wasn't paying 50% of my salary doing design work within the first year, that I would go back to school. ⁓ so I was very determined to make that work. Two weeks later, after graduating, I was doing dishes in the back of the coffee shop and a woman came in and she was like picking up some of the things in the shop and she was like, Do any of you know a graphic designer? And I was like, Me. And I had all my new business cards, I had my website all updated. and she was the founder of Aloha Collection. And she interviewed me the next day at her house, and I literally got an offer the day after. speaker-1: Wow. And then you proceeded to work there for five half a half a decade, right? Five years. You based on based on my ex I mean that's crazy to say. Based on based on what I've heard from your time at Aloha Collective, like you literally started as a graphic designer but ended as something way differently. So like what was that year? You don't have to walk us through every single year, although I would find that very fascinating. Like what what was what hats did you wear? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: 'Cause it's it was like a true s I mean, it was a true startup. You were traveling the world, like what how did from point A to point Z, like what was that what was that like? speaker-0: Aloha was founded by two women that were roommates, had zero background in what they were doing, like flight attendant and like mortgage loans, basically. And they had hired on their neighbor doing sales, and then they hired me on to do ⁓ all the creative, basically, ⁓ with one of the co-founders. So that was really I started doing bag design. So like a lot of like Aloha's corporates were were mine, which is crazy. ⁓ that feels like a different person did a lot of that. ⁓ and then I was uploading them to Shopify. I was attending the product on white shoots and like cropping the photos to put on Shopify. I definitely have uploaded a product at zero dollars before. ⁓ I feel like it's a route of passive. It's free. And it kind of turned into designing our emails and doing our email marketing and then figuring out subject lines, copy, like ⁓ imagery, all of that stuff. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And at the time one of the girls' friends was doing all their like PR and ⁓ like influencer just kind of like on the side and she was crushing it for like how little we had at back in like 2016, 2017. and then as our team grew, I had to get really and I feel like this is what ⁓ makes a difference of a good like zero to one employee versus someone that's just gonna like stick around like a little bit, like too much in the weeds of everything. I had to get really confident with understanding what I was good at and what I was bad at because we needed to bring people in to do the things that I was not good at. So I think the first ⁓ one of the first few big hires that I remember making is our was our art director. I was like, I can't, I've never done this before. Let's let's bring someone in who has some experience and she was incredible. And then from there it was kind of like, okay. speaker-1: Like. speaker-0: I'm not super good at design. Like, let's bring in a couple other designers and let's start filling that in. And so I kind of like figured out what I was really good at is being in front of people, which graphic designers, you're behind a computer all day, every day. And so I ended up doing a lot of like our trade shows, a lot of our photo shoots, like sourcing our models, bringing on our models. And I loved connecting with our talent. ⁓ and that's kind of what drove me into. Being a really good fit for running our social and influencer, I had the creative and advertising and design background. So could design all the things for our social. And then I was already talking with the influencers. So it all just kind of came to be. And because I was such a part of like the core of Aloha, I was in there to make sure every single part of our 360 campaign all connected. So I had a big like umbrella overview of what was going on at all times. speaker-1: Over the span of five years. Crazy. And I also think it's like when you're young and like early on in your career, like you feel the need to prove everyone that you can do everything. And so I also think it's such an asset to be able to say, like, I don't know how to do that. So we're gonna have to hire for it. And also, like, obviously, you worked hard enough and proved yourself enough that your bosses believed you and like. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Feels like ten. speaker-1: allowed you to hire and allowed you to literally grow their organization. Brick bag brick. ⁓ so then you pivoted a little bit, right? And then you went into the software world. So like what happened? What made you decide to come to pivot a little bit? Obviously it was still like within your world of understanding, but kind of what inspired you to make to leave Aloha and to to take on something new? speaker-0: Yeah, if you had asked me leaving college, like what I wanted to do, I wanted to help small businesses because I wanted to start my own. Being so close to seeing every single thing that happens and like Aloha Collection was bootstrapped that each girl put in $2,500. It's actually the best founder story ever, but they each put in $2,500 only and have been riding off that the whole time, like 50 50 owners till like the day I left. I'm still under the impression that they own a majority stake. ⁓ which is crazy. Usually you have to come from a ton of funding, like a ton of background, or get funding like a couple years down the line. ⁓ but seeing and being so close to all of that, I was like, I just I'm I'm not ready. Like that's like maybe not my journey. I think I'm probably really good at working like with founders. ⁓ but at the time I was you know, I didn't want to start my own thing, but also it felt really weird to go somewhere else. Like Aloha felt like my own. ⁓ and so I didn't really necessarily want to go back into a small business. And I was exhausted. Like I was so exhausted. And I really, like to be honest, I wanted to be a cog in a wheel. Like that's like the real answer. I was I every decision felt so large ⁓ where I came from and I was so young ⁓ that I really just needed like almost like a nervous system reset. speaker-1: You needed a reset almost. speaker-0: ⁓ so I ⁓ was going around and I was like, I heard tech, you make money in tech, and I could kind of just be like a cog there. and I was lucky enough to get a job at one of the softwares that I used, ⁓ which was Grin in the space. and so as an end user there, utilizing them to help ⁓ organize our influencer program. ⁓ I was a CSM. So I was like helping run accounts, all those things. ⁓ Three months in, I got asked to move to the strategy team, which had four other really incredible, incredible ladies on it. So was really excited to join. and strategy, we one-to-one worked with all of our brands at Grin, which ranged, you know, all the way from like Skims and Good American and Fashion Nova all the way down to like mom and pop shop. So it was a really ⁓ a great place to be able to like wedge myself in with a lot of these companies and make a lot of ⁓ connections. and realize like how the other side, I guess, works. speaker-1: That's amazing. ⁓ and so from Grin to then a competing software at the well, maybe not even at the time. ⁓ Superfiliate was like now it's competing, but at the time it was literally just a baby. So what what was that what happened after Grin? Obviously, like you really developed a knack for what speaker-0: Is it baby? speaker-1: what features need to be included in software in order to make an influencer marketers' lives easier. ⁓ and you worked with hundred you've worked with hundreds of brands now at this point and through the through the course of your career. So why then did you make the switch to super affiliate? speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh. The messy answer is I w like in the fifth or sixth layoff of Grin, there was an opt in and I said, Sounds great. speaker-1: I'm out. Thank you, goodbye. speaker-0: But to be honest, what I realized coming from Grin, who is so legacy, to be honest, in this space. They were building so early with some of these like early adopters of influencer marketing is ⁓ they didn't have any operators helping to build. ⁓ and the people speaking about Grin publicly and all these people like didn't they hadn't run programs for the most part. ⁓ and so what I really learned working there is there's a lot of value in being a very ⁓ specific type of end user, because I don't think this is for everybody that's ever been a marketer, 100% working with a product team, an engineering team, like all these different things, your brain has to like almost like reprocess what's happening. And I became really good at working at Grin, taking in a lot of different perspectives and understanding which were the ones to surface. Cause a lot of times when you're running your own program, you feel like what you're asking for is the most important. And how could anyone be asking for something different? Right. And so I ended up becoming really good at understanding, you know, this would be really, really cool, but it would probably only service like the top like 10% of our brands. Is that really like what we want to go after? Do we want to service the 80%? And who's in that 80%? Are they, you know, our core persona or ICP, whoever it is? and you know, met Andy through a rogue LinkedIn post and the rest is honestly history. I came in with no job description and all of the trust in the world from him and Anders to say, like, we know we need expertise happening, like figure out where the expertise is needed most. ⁓ and that's for our users and for our own company. ⁓ and that's kind of what I did. So now I get to work really closely with our head of product and our CPO Anders on ⁓ making sure our product has like the empathy and like the core messaging that a marketer needs behind it. ⁓ then I also get to be a part of like bringing all of that to market on the flip side and making sure we're speaking in the right, you know, the right lingo, the right if you know you know, like kind of terminology for us instead of, you know, a tech marketer speaking to an influencer and brand marketer. speaker-1: Yeah, it's everything you need and nothing you don't. ⁓ but obviously like building brands and building software are two very, very different things, but they're also deeply intertwined. So, you know, how has working in product changed the way that you think about all of this, about like influencer and brand marketing? speaker-0: Yeah. I mean I think I kind of speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: I think I touched on it a little bit. I'll not too I really don't want this to come across as tooting my own horn. I speaker-1: I am ⁓ Do thou or let's hear. speaker-0: I shocked at the amount of people that don't know what they're doing and are admitting to not admitting to not knowing what they're doing, but like not seeking help, not like figuring it out and just like collapsing under that pressure, I guess. ⁓ I can't believe how successful and like thoughtful of a marketing team like program that I led there. And it's so hard to because like one of the things that like I constantly swallow ⁓ in this position as like being head of creator strategy and talking with all these brands is my core at Aloha was not just influencer. That was maybe like twenty-five to like fifty percent of my job at a certain time. But for most of it, I was really managing the brand. Like I was, you know, still really involved with our 360 marketing, our photo shoots, every single other thing that also surrounded influencer, which I think really is what gave me the the unique perspective to come in and really do this. If I didn't have the 360 aspect of how email fits in, how a founder thinks, how a CEO thinks, how like a revenue team thinks, and all these different pieces, I would not be good at my job. Like absolutely not be good at my job. So I think hopefully that answers this question, but I think that's really like the core of what I've learned working in product is ⁓ You can't just come from one point of view and like push it into a product. Like you have to kind of understand the bigger picture. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. And it the best way also to learn what people need is by doing it. Yeah. And you spent years doing it in like various shapes and forms, but and also just like seeking out what you didn't know or hiring for things that you didn't know and learning it through that way. So and now here we are. Here you are, head of strategy, creator strategy, product strategy, whatever yeah, whatever. Head of strategy out there. You're just the strategist. speaker-0: Whatever strategy we want to throw out. speaker-1: Extraordinaire. ⁓ crazy. And then we all and then and then we intersected once you came at Superfilia. Which is so funny because I did not even realize that the first one of obviously like Andy's LinkedIn post, but then before Field Notes was Field Notes, it was Brands in Bloom. And you watched one of those webinars and you're like, this is really I learned about that literally last week. That's crazy. And now you're speaker-0: We have friends in Bloom and it was by far, I didn't know who Superfill it was. I don't even think I really realized that it was connected initially when I saw it. But you had the guests on. Yeah. You had the best guests on and it felt so raw and real. And like I said, I'm talking to I at Gruno's talking to hundreds of brands who like would not admit that they really needed help and could be doing this better or should be doing it differently or you know, whatever it was. speaker-1: Tens million. speaker-0: ⁓ and this was like the first thing that came across my feed, I guess, where I was like, ⁓ my gosh, this is finally people that were really operators talking about the things that we should be knowing. Cause I don't really want to hear from a I don't know, like a CMO or a product expert or anything. out of touch ⁓ and what did wasn't getting their hands dirty initially. speaker-1: Yeah, girl. Well that is so fun. I loved learning that. You have so many like fun different experiences. That's crazy. I don't think I could have ever been a barista or worked at John Juice. I just I don't like people that as ⁓ like I couldn't do that. speaker-0: Well and advice too. speaker-1: Which is super ironic 'cause my career has always been about people p speaker-0: Influencers about people. Influencers about people. One hundred percent. One hundred percent. speaker-1: Service though. It's a job I could never do. Customer service people need more credit because, whoa, how do you keep your cool? speaker-0: I'm glad I did it pre twenty twenty, I'll say that. speaker-1: That's fair. That's fair. My God. That's totally fair. speaker-0: ⁓ boy. ⁓ but also too, I one thing that we share in common, not to go on like a side tangent, is ⁓ being an operator and influencer marketing through twenty twenty. I think we need a lot more recognition. speaker-1: Yes. That could be a whole episode, basically how 2020 changed everything. Because it did. It I mean, it changed everything for everyone in every aspect of life. But like to be an influencer marketer pre 2020 versus post 2020 are two very different people. Ooh, maybe that's a hill I'll die on. Yeah. But we're not there yet. The episode's not there yet. speaking of which. speaker-0: It's my turn. It's my turn to grill you a little bit. So I wanna start way back with you too, not to not to, you know, copycat, but where'd you start? Yeah. speaker-1: Excited. ⁓ let's see. In high school I wasn't allowed to have jobs because my parents very much prioritize prioritized academics ⁓ and sports. So my first job in college, ⁓ but I also in college, like based on the I forget what I even forget like the structure of it, but I was like paying for college by having jobs on campus. So like the money that I made kind of like went towards tuition and then I had some cash in my pocket. And the very first job that I had in college was working out of the admissions office. I was just like an administrative assistant. And you know, this is the first time I realized how important it is to be passionate about your job. Otherwise you're really fucking bad at it. This was the first example and there are many examples of that in my career. Okay, we'll get there. Yeah. ⁓ I was bad at it. I thought I knew the alphabet. I really sucked. I should not have been trusted to touch people's college applications. I was like Filing away the papers. I was like, A B C D E. That was my job. And I did it for I think one semester, maybe two semest 'cause it was a semester system. I think I only did it for two semesters. ⁓ and then the summer after my first year of college though, I worked in ⁓ the college I went to, Scripps College is a beautiful. I mean, you probably know the Scripps family because of like your time in San Diego as well, but ⁓ it's a women's college in Southern California, and it's a beautiful campus. It's like a Mediterranean oasis. And so every summer we would have like weekend after weekend after weekend of wedding plan of weddings. Like our campus would host weddings. And so I don't remember what my title was, but I was like a wedding coordinator where I was helping court, like, you know, making sure the vendors were arriving on time and making sure that the brides and the grooms were in the right rooms on campus and that. Things were getting set up and things run a schedule. So it was it was like a it was like true event planning. And I actually did that ⁓ the summer after my first year and the summer after of my second year in college. And I loved it. I did not like the hours because it those are long days. Like event planners, like, ⁓ man, it's exhausting. I was the first time I was exposed to like really big personalities too, not bridezillas, but mother of the bridezillas. I was like, whoa. Like That's as close as I can get to customer service, I think. speaker-0: Yeah, I'm not built for that. No. Not built for it. speaker-1: I mean it's so it's fun to see a vision come to life though. That's like the biggest thing that I learned is I really loved seeing things come to life, like from paper in reality. What like just having ideas blossom. I freaking loved it. ⁓ and the people I worked with were really cool. So I really enjoyed that. And then but actually like during during the school year, ⁓ I worked in the career planning and resources office for two years, I think. Not three years, but two years. And I loved that. ⁓ the women that the obviously like the real women that I worked with were incredible. The fellow students I worked with were incredible. ⁓ and that the whole point of that job was just to help my fellow peers edit their resumes and write their cover letters and find jobs that they were passionate about. And I loved that area of mentoring people and helping them figure out what it is that they wanted to do and then helping them get there. ⁓ which I didn't realize was a huge seed that had that just like got planted into my heart, like deeply caring about obviously like my career, but like more so caring about the careers of other people. I loved it. ⁓ I had an internship at El Decor magazine my junior year summer in advertising sales. That was like the first time I learned how to connect the dots between like what's El El Decor's brand and this advertiser and like what's the ad that comes to life and the sales pitch. You know, it was like New York City unpaid internship living in NYU housing, barely eating one meal a day, you know, like it was awesome. speaker-0: Yeah. We all have to come from that though. It's important. speaker-1: I it's a lot of s I mean, my God, you just learn how to be really scrappy and you learn how to like literally eat scraps. It's an unpaid intern in New York City, you figure it out. ⁓ but I love that experience. That was like my first test into advertising. ⁓ and then my senior year of college, I had an internship in, you know, I was college was based in LA. I thought I wanted to do entertainment. So I had like a I had an entertainment internship at Lionsgate. My God, we're going way back, hated it. Hated it. ⁓ but the one thing, because I was just reading scripts all day, which was cool, but I was like, snooze fast. But I do remember the one thing that they complimented me on was my attitude. And they were like, never change your attitude. Like you're happy as hell. And I was like, Sometimes I'm masking, but thanks. They're like, Nep don't like the attitude and the zest, like, don't change that. And I was like, Okay, I won't. I don't I don't think I have. I think in fact if anything, I'm weirder than I was back then. speaker-0: And you I don't think speaker-1: my God. So that was like I really jam-packed the professional like a diversity of experience when I was in college. And I was probably more impactful than the actual courses I was taking. Like again, I was an English major. I was reading and writing because that's all I like to do anyway. but then my first job out of college again was really bad at it. So bad. I was at a massive advertising agency and I didn't want to be that millennia. I wanted to leave after like a few months probably, but I didn't want to be the cliche story of a millennial that didn't hold down a job for a year. So I was like, I'll be here for a year. But I was actually really bad at that job because I was really not passionate about it. I thought I wanted to work in big ad big at big ad at a big ad agency, you know, and at a home. So I was doing like billboards and bus shelters and digital, and I it was cool, but I don't think it was challenging enough for me. And I it was also funny. Like I came from a women's college where you're like, you can do anything. Like you're gonna be the CEO the day you graduate. And then I like bottom of the totem pole printing out billboards for my manager to like approve and requesting POPs. Like, and I was mistake making mistakes left and right. And I there would be some weeks where I wouldn't have a single thing to work on. It was just like a very weird environment. speaker-0: And speaker-1: Then I out of sheer boredom, I launched an entire side hustle. ⁓ because I had worked in the career planning and resources office, I was like, I wanna work, I wanna just like help career coaches and women who are career coaches like help build their businesses. And that's how I so lily. I really missed that career element and I was like, I'm not learning anything at this job. Like I need to learn, I like I'm speaker-0: That's so speaker-1: My brain's gonna die. I gotta learn. I gotta like, I need to find opportunities for me to continue learning. ⁓ and so I I was just like cold pitching people on LinkedIn. I reached reached out to this woman, Alexander Dickinson, who was the founder and CEO of a and of an organization called Ask For. And she was a specifically like a career coach with a focus on negotiation, like helping women negotiate and better advocate for themselves. speaker-0: Wow, I didn't know this about you. But this makes no sense. speaker-1: Yes. I loved it. But I was literally doing like graphic design for her, doing email newsletters for her. It was helping her secure not like brand partnerships, but more so like writing opportunities in certain publications, like ⁓ my god, like create and cultivate and like career contessa and all of these like old school like female empowerment newsletter and publications or whatever. And that's when I really realized that was. at the time called business development. I was like my unofficial title. I was like a business development associate for her. ⁓ 'cause you know, my first job out of college, I was probably making less than a thousand dollars a month living in Los Angeles. Like I also needed the income. And I think I maybe made five hundred dollars from her extra a month, but like I was living in a shitty part, shitty part of town. I was living with a shitty boyfriend at the time. I it was I was just Scraping. I was like, I need to get my climb myself out of here. ⁓ and through that experience with Alexandra, I realized I really love the dot connecting of like business development. And so then I started looking for business development jobs, but at cool companies, like companies that I would be passionate about. And that's when Thrive Market was interviewing for a business development coordinator or associate or whatever the hell my title was. And that is when I didn't even really I didn't even realize that the team was influencer. ⁓ so because it was called business development. Yeah. Like, ⁓ I don't know what this is, but I need out. I need to be passionate about what I want to do. So my side muscle stopped. Yeah. speaker-0: too I feel like no company or team member, me included, wanted to be called an influencer marketer. It's so dirty, ungodly embarrassing to admit to people that that's what you speaker-1: ⁓ dirty. This was so just to put a timestamp, this was 2016, 2017. ⁓ yeah, the word influencer was a dirty word. It was like yeah, we're part we're the partnerships team, we're the business development team. Like yeah, you couldn't be an influencer. It was like a really frowned upon Yeah. It was just frood, frowned upon. But I learned so many things at Thrive Market, not only how to be a kick-ass influencer marketer, but also the importance of inner team culture. ⁓ because my manager and boss at Thrive Market, Courtney, who is still there to this day. If that is not a testament to how incredible Thrive Market was as an organization, I don't know what else is, but she taught me that you can be a friendly manager and you can create culture that feels like home outside of like within your workplace. And for for that I will be forever grateful to her. because like my managers at my first job were they were nice, but like it didn't really feel like they gave a shit about me. They just cared about the company. ⁓ and man, my time at Thrive was like, I feel like the luckiest pivot I could have ever made in my career. It's crazy. I was there for just under four years. ⁓ and it's actually funny. For three years I was on the influencer team, started as a coordinator, made my way up to manager, was I feel like I've said this so many times when I've introduced myself. Like YouTube was the channel that I was like fully managing. But then I actually reached a growth ceiling when I was at Thrive Market. And this was no no shade to Courtney, no shade to the team. I was just like, listen, I'm not, there's no further advancement opportunities for me here. So I actually left the team and I went to work as a senior writer, senior content I writer or editor for the content and community team at Thrive Market. I was like writing articles ⁓ because one thing that I I kind of created a side hustle within my full time job. is I was interviewing our influencers to be featured on the Thrive Market blog. And that was something that I was doing while on the influencer team. But then I was like, ⁓ I kind of really like this. I want to try it full time. So I actually left influencer marketing for about eight months. Tiny. Flip on the radar. But I was still interviewing influencers and still like working with the content and creator team and and thinking more on organic social. But also being very adamant about bringing data into our conversations because I was so data driven on the influencer team. And that was just like also how cool that it that they let me do that. They let me like do a career pivot inside their organization. It was still very much anchored in creator. Like I was still like the creator voice within the the content team. But ⁓ during that time, my boss left. A lot of people were leaving because that was when 2020 was that's like twenty nineteen, early twenty twenty. Tides were changing. ⁓ I was doing like Instagram lives for Thrive Market during the pandemic. Like it was just a wild time. ⁓ and it was towards the end of 2020 where I was really missing influencer marketing. I really, I was really missing it. ⁓ and I knew that I wanted an opportunity where I could build something from scratch because I had a lot of theories and hypotheses. about how influencer marketing could no shade to how the team was doing it at Thrive. I just wanted to do it differently. ⁓ like lean into what was working. I wanted and I wanted to just fucking do it myself. ⁓ and that's when a recruiter reached out to me for the opportunity at Seed and ever s like that changed my life. Yeah. So then I started at Seed and yeah, go ahead. I could just talk going. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You gotta say, well, I mean, no, it's great because I feel like a lot of people know you for seed because seed had a massive program. Like you spent millions of dollars with seed, you ran a really successful program. I could it would take more than my two hands to count the amount of times that I've even been next to you and heard someone mention seed university that you created there. Like there are so many things, but Before we get into all of that, talk to me a little bit about, and I know this is ⁓ not even a question that we prepared, but talk to me a little bit about too. going from working on a team where like there was a strategy already set there to starting your own thing. I feel like this is something that a lot of marketers like maybe don't realize how difficult it is to take over a program from someone else, and just as difficult in a different way from starting it from scratch. Like speaker-1: Two spots. Knowing speaker-0: what it took to start from scratch, would you do that all over again? speaker-1: Yeah. And I would change I wouldn't change anything. Nothing. ⁓ because y I simply can't. I can't go back in time and change anything. So why would I fixate on trying to change the past? ⁓ but Thrive Market was The earliest adopter of influencer marketing, like Fab Fit Fun. It was like that era of influencer marketing where very few HelloFresh. Hello Fresh was like, we were all in the same boat. We're like Instagram launched stories. So we're like, let's test stories. But I learned my basics from Thrive Market. I learned the importance of relationships because at the time we were working directly with every single influencer. Talent managers weren't a thing yet. So we were. working directly with talent. There weren't all these weird, yes, there were algorithms, but it was like the linear timeline. It wasn't YouTube wasn't owned by Google. Like there it was just like everything was from scratch. And I think it's so valuable to learn a job when it hasn't been like automated or when it hasn't gotten too big because like you can still control it a little bit more. But I learned like the fundamentals of relationships, the fundamentals of negotiations. And really the biggest thing with negotiations is just make every decision that you make has to be backed by data. Like very data driven and very focused on informed decisions, not just like gut-based decisions. But from those informed decisions, when you're using data, you build this gut instinct and just like understanding that gut instinct is really important in our industry, which I know you're very passionate about. But also understanding that like risk aversion is an important skill also in this industry. Like I think marketers who have never failed are not good marketers. And I think as influencer marketers, like our entire industry became an industry because we've made a lot of mistakes. But we also made a lot of really, we also had a lot of really strong winds that we leaned into as well. ⁓ Did that answer your question? speaker-0: Yeah, no, that was great. That was great. speaker-1: No. It's like I start I start to ramble. speaker-0: ⁓ no, I think it's awesome. I I do want to dive into because since seed, you've done a lot. ⁓ I know you are you still today are known for seed. ⁓ and it like it's incredible. It's like, you know, still running off of the foundation that you set for it today. But today you have a really successful agency that has 10 people, which is crazy. ⁓ and you're working with some insane brands. So ⁓ I mean I give like a tiny like your shortest like what brought you to actually like making the decision for yourself that this was your path? And it's so funny now hearing like your background because hearing all these little tidbits and like, ⁓ my gosh, this is so Lily, like of course, of course she ended up serving her own agency. speaker-1: ⁓ You know, it wa it it almost, it was not a decision I made on my own. ⁓ because as much as like my time at seed was transformative for me personally and professionally, it was also the most challenging environment I've ever been in, personally or professionally. ⁓ and I these I've shared these stats all the time. I spent $20 million over the course of two and a half years and saw at least a minimum return of over a hundred million dollars from influencers alone. And when I was in it, when I was at seed, that wasn't enough. That didn't feel like enough. That didn't feel successful. That didn't feel industry shattering. That didn't feel unique. It was just what I did with my team. It was just what we did. ⁓ and I think it's because it was a very typical startup culture where the goalposts were always moving. and where acknowledgement and re and recognition was few and far between. And it was like, we're gonna fucking crush. We're gonna be the number one probiotic in America. And I was like, yeah. It's like I'm gonna make it fast. I went hard. And I didn't realize how damaging it was until the end basically until my final six months where people started reaching out to me. They're like, help me. Like, how do I How do I build a program like Seed? And I was like, well, like, what do you mean? And they're like, it's huge. And I was like, is it? And even still to this day, like now I have kind of a grasp of how impressive the work that I did there was. But there's still a piece of me that really absorbed this idea that it just simply wasn't enough for them, which is like fucking horrible. Anyway. ⁓ so I launched Superbloom because I needed to rescue myself, truly. Because I what developed alopecia while I was working there. I lost like 20 pounds. Like I was unwell. ⁓ and it was actually Andy and Anders, the co-founders of Superaffiliate and John Morgan, who is the head of supply chain at Thrive Market with me, who said, Hey you don't do freelancing, don't do consulting. We believe in you. You should start an agency. And I think the three of them believing in me was I mean, it it literally changed everything for me. Cause I went from a place of literally not believing I had any skills and abilities and I wasn't good at what I did to also having a very toxic sea male manager at seed who ruined that experience for me. So I lost a lot of trust for men. And then here were these three guys, Andy Andres and John, who were like, let's party. And I was like, Yeah. Men believing in me, men that I trust. And men who are also successful on their own. I was like, dang. Okay. And so then June 2023, I put in my notice. I gave them a month. And then July is, you know, unofficial officially, unofficially, when Superbloom started. ⁓ and I I didn't take any time off, which I regret. I should have done that, but it's fine. Yeah. And so we're three. And you're speaker-0: London. ⁓ speaker-1: Crazy. I did. I did. I did. I did. My God though. If you're like trying to pivot in your career, it's like at least give yourself a vacation. That was like that was my my year zero lesson is like get allow yourself a vacation. speaker-0: Yeah. My wife. Yeah, okay, lesson for year zero was give yourself a a vacation. What was your lesson in? speaker-1: Uh-huh. ⁓ Do it anyway. Do it anyway. Like you do it scared, you do it depressed, you do it sick, you do it excited, you do you do it anyway. Like I think it's a specific lesson in perseverance, and it's a really important mantra to embody. And you just build so much strength by saying, I'm just gonna do it anyway. Like, like I mentioned, like I was seed made me so sick. 'Cause I obviously like I allowed it to. It wasn't the product, by the way. It was not the product that made me sick. It was the culture. where it's like I went through really dark depression. I was losing hair, which like my hair. ⁓ You do it anyway. You do it anyway. And through that you prove to yourself that you can. And then like all these little problems just be get smaller and smaller and smaller when you just year one, the lesson was do it anyway. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I think too an important lesson that everyone can take away from this is even when you start to do something on your own or you feel like you're in like the best position that you could be in that you could never even imagine for yourself, there are still gonna be times where you do have to do it anyway. Like it's not going to be all rainbows and sometimes every single day just because you got to this one milestone. ⁓ Lily has to show up and do and run Superbloom and help. These incredible women and brands with their careers every day, no matter what is happening. ⁓ but it's just a lot better than it has been. I love it. Yes. Okay, year two. Year two. speaker-1: growth. Gro year two is growth is scary as hell. And like it and it can be a good scared too. It's like it can be a bad scared and it can be a good scared, but scare growth is scary as hell. And some people will either thrive with growth or they will sink with growth. And That was a really hard lesson that I learned in the second year is like some people will step up to the plate and some people will just be crushed by oper like crushed by sheer opportunity for growth. ⁓ it's and I think I say growth is scary as hell because I was never, it was never my my work accomplishments were never good enough. So I was like, what do you mean? Having an abundance mindset was very new to me because everything felt scarce. So I was like. ⁓ my God, these brands want to work with me. ⁓ my God. We're developing a positive reputation. ⁓ my God. People respect what I've done and what I'm doing. It was like very positive growth. And I think it was only scary because I was just, you know, pr predict my own trauma. ⁓ No, but yeah, year two was growth is scary as hell. speaker-0: Okay, okay, and now we're speaker-1: It's sometimes good to be scared. speaker-0: Yeah. we're coming close on year three wrapping up. So ⁓ how does that feel? speaker-1: Year th year three is all about protection is preservation. Like and pres preservation is protection. Kind of like the vice versa and the interplay between protection and preservation. And it real as it relates to team culture and the quality of our work, I will now stop at nothing and do nothing to protect my team and to preserve the quality of our work, but also and to preserve them. ⁓ and to protect them. Like I've never felt more maternal, more mama bear about anything than I have within this last year. Like I have and I don't it's a confidence thing too where speaker-0: And that's so true. speaker-1: It's like it's almost this feeling of like I have nothing to lose if I put my team first. Nothing. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: So it's almost like prote pr protection is preservation and preservation is protection. That's like the theme of your year three for sure. speaker-0: Yeah. I love it. I love it. Now that you've heard from both of us and kind of how we've gotten to where we are today, each with about a decade under our belt in this ⁓ brand marketing space, what would this a question for both of us at the end of the day. So really quick few couple ⁓ fire round. What's changed the most since we each started in this industry, which was about the same time in in twenty sixteen. speaker-1: Is it a cheap answer to say that literally everything has changed? ⁓ no, I think everything's changed. speaker-0: Everything besides it being relationship based has changed pretty much. speaker-1: Yes. ⁓ And if anything, unfortunately, it's starting to feel like it's becoming more transactional. just because it's also become more competitive. But I think like the influencer marketers that are still doing influencer marketing correctly are remembering that it's all about relationships at the end of the day. And that, you know, there are certain there are certain influencers and talent managers where like they just weren't relationship focused and they were way too transactional and we're simply never gonna work with them again. Like I think it's it's all it's also gotten what also has changed is it's incredibly competitive nowadays. You know? Every brand is doing influencer marketing. There's so many influencers, like it is so competitive. ⁓ so remaining authentic to who you are and what your values are has never been more important. That's like for me, everything and nothing has changed. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. What you think? I'm I mean similar to you, I'm constantly curious that if I were to start Aloha collection today, how different it would be than starting it when when I came on board. ⁓ and I think I was really lucky. I pretty much was a soul gifting. program until I finally brought on a software to bring in some like codes to start measuring to be able to prove that we should have some budget behind what we're doing. Yeah. ⁓ but I was so lucky to start my career in this at a brand that I helped develop to be basically a cult of Disney adults at the end of the day. Like drop obsessed, collection obsessed, collabs like up the lazu. It was wild to witness and it was wild to be on like the social side of it to see all of like the love and adoration and like psychosis almost that like our ⁓ followers had and for context too when I came on I think our Instagram had about 1500 followers and we made it to 200k when I left. and We built out an athlete program. We had ambassadors that embodied like the Aloha spirit. And then we had ⁓ all of our affiliates as well. But I really don't think it'd be possible to build a program with that much just pure gifting and adoration of a brand from the get go in twenty twenty six. So I think to think of everything. speaker-1: And you kind of Yeah, every but why do you think that? Why do you think that you couldn't do that nowadays? speaker-0: I I definitely think there are aspects that could, I mean, the reflection of in the moment, I was just like, ⁓ this is like what it is. But looking back about many things that I did and decisions I made that led us to have this craze behind the brand. So I like I like to think that it was that. We were also too one of the brands that did really well through COVID. And I think COVID catapulted us. speaker-1: There's some. speaker-0: So I also don't know if we would have had like the same catapult that we did there, which is shout out social listening. The reason why we did that well is we heard one ⁓ doctor and we had like two other nurses in our DMs or like tagging us that mentioned that our bags were so easy to wipe down with Clorox wipes and they didn't have to use bags every day. And we ran literally head first into a massive nursing campaign. So like people can nominate. everyone in the like front lines for us to donate product and it was all gifting based. We donated a shitload of product. We did a massive 50% off sale for everyone on the frontline. Wow. ⁓ and that literally changed our business. Like it was crazy. So in that aspect, I don't think I could do that again. speaker-1: Yeah. No, I agree. I do think that I mean we were joking about this earlier, like pre and post 2020 influencer marketing. Twenty twenty changed a lot. That could be such that would be such an interesting episode. Cause I also don't think that Seed University and Seed would have been successful if everyone had been healthy. And like there hadn't been so much scientific skepticism. And yeah, it I think same with Drag Market, food delivery. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. It was like twenty twenty was sink or swim. So it's crazy. So fascinating. I we're this episode's already like a way too long. ⁓ but I we could go I could go into that actually. Let's go off on another episode. Let's go off on another episode for that. ⁓ okay, ⁓ our final question, right? That we both need to answer. If you could sit every new influencer marketer down for fifteen minutes, what's the lesson you'd teach them first? speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah. ⁓ take time to be offline is mine. I it's so this job is so ⁓ demanding in so many ways. Your inbox is demanding contracts, red lines. You have hopefully a really big budget behind you that's really demanding, and probably a CMO that's really demanding. it is really, really important to stay on top of social trends on top of all of that, or else you become irrelevant. ⁓ but it's just as important to invest in hobbies and touching grass and not being on, you know, a doom scroll every time you exit work. It consumes your life and it's so unhealthy. speaker-1: Yes. Great. I need to get better about that. But we're doing needlepoint, right? speaker-0: Yes. And crossroads and bedazzling and speaker-1: You're the bedazzler. I think I would be overstimulated with the amount of bedazzling that you do. ⁓ what's the lesson I'd teach first? It's all this actually is a perfect segue into a hill I'll die on. So let's, I'm gonna make that segue for us. My first hill that I'm gonna die on is the first lesson that I would teach an influencer marketer, which is you have to be comfortable. With taking a risk. Being comfortable with risks is the best skill that you can have as an influencer marketer. And I said this at the com at the summit we just you that we just spoke at, where it's like influencer marketing is one of the least controllable marketing environments ever. You can control nine out of ten steps to this process, but that final step is algorithmic changes, is AI fucking shit up. It's It's software not working, it's websites being down. It's like the biggest factor that can mess with everything that you've optimized that if you are not comfortable with risk, if you are not comfortable with experimentation and that could fail or it could win, you have to be. You have to be comfortable with risk. So And the best way to get comfortable with risk is to experiment and is to encourage a culture of making mistakes because from mistakes you learn and then you also have these gnarly wins. So then you lean into what's working like that's a hill I'll die on and that is how I would answer that question. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I when I was reflecting on all of that too this past week coming off of New York and She Innovates, I really just kept coming back to you talking specifically about that. But to me, it brought me back to one word to explain influencer marketers, which is resilient. If you want a resilient marketer or a resilient employee that's even looking to do something else, hire an influencer marketer, an ex influencer. Literally. Literally. Absolutely. Like this you have to be resilient. speaker-1: Like we built it brick by brick. And we we also built it through a healthy level of skepticism and judgment. And we said we're gonna do it anyway. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna dive in. Yeah. I'm gonna dive into one of your other hills because I I feel like this is also a really good segue. Is influencer marketers are resilient. They have to you know, they have to be adoptable and all of these things, which leads us into we are in an industry that is dominated by women. It's so freaking cool. speaker-1: Yeah. Fire your intent. speaker-0: Not only are influencers dominated by women, but the marketers behind the programs are dominated by women. so take us take us through the next hill you're gonna die on. speaker-1: For the love of God, stop calling women girls. No more girl boss era, no more sheo, no more women, like work like a girl, play like a girl, run like a girl. Like ⁓ if you're a girl, you're a girl. But if we are women and we are creating organizations for professional women, do not call us girls. I'm you don't. You don't hear men referring to themselves as boys unless it's like da boys, like I'm going out with the boys. You don't hear like work like a boy or finance your business like a boy or like business for a boy. Ew. I'm a w like. I just think it's really I think it's really outdated. It's really infantilizing and it's really demeaning. And in a society, in a in a culture where women are already minimized and Overly sexualized and infantilized, like you have to be the we all we have to remain young by calling us girls. We're also not allowed to grow up, but also not allowed to show up in the ways that we we already are. So please we can be girly pops. That's fine. I love being a girly pop, but at the end of the day, like I'm a working woman, not a working girl. So like move on. speaker-0: Yeah. I love it. speaker-1: I love it. That's like probably the ultimate hill I'm gonna die on is stop referring to women as girls. speaker-0: Well, I keep catching myself too because I feel like I refer to myself as a girl all the time. Like I'm just a girl or or whatever it is, which is also I'm like, why do I say that? speaker-1: That's I think that's fine because we've also like girlhood is becoming a thing. It's different when it's put into a professional world. I maybe that's how I should caveat this. Is stop referring to women as girls in a professional way. If you're building an organization meant to empower young women professionals, don't call them girls. Call them women. ⁓ Whereas, like when you're with your girlfriends, like, yeah, they're girlfriends, it's girlhood. It can because women own that. term. We own girlhood. But when it when it when girl when the term girls get into the professional world, that's when it becomes infantilizing and stifling. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna jump into my like key hill I'll die on just No, we've been we've been yapping for a while here. mine is revenue should not be the sole outcome expectation of influencer marketing. speaker-1: Anyway. Yeah. Great. speaker-0: I think we're in an era where budgets get cut left and right. They always have, but you know, there's also yeah, always have, always will. But we're really, really in an era right now where CMOs and CEOs and VPs, whoever, are really obsessed with the fact that influencer has to drive direct line revenue. And sometimes it does, but other times it shouldn't. Like there are just what I was saying, I could not build. speaker-1: Always have always will. speaker-0: What Aloha is today, if that was the sole expectation of influencer. Our brand exists in the space and with the fandom that it has today, because we didn't treat it that way. Because we were obsessed with making sure that we had people that embodied our brand, that could speak about our brand in different ways in different parts of the country, if not the globe, when we started expanding into Japan, Australia, et cetera, et cetera. But it really, really couldn't. Like without all the gifting that we did and the investing in communities and just being at the forefront of all of that, like none of that would have come if the sole expectation from my co-founders was a direct line of revenue. speaker-1: Completely agree. So and I also think like the more successful the more goals you can give your influencer program, the better the more successful it will be. Give it a diversity of of goals. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. And connect them, don't silo them off. That's another thing that I think has changed a lot since we started is we started in an era where that wasn't really a full time gig yet. So you were probably half invested in some other part of the business. Now the amount of influencer marketers I talk to that are not direct line communicating with their social teams, their marketing team, media team is it's crazy. So involve them. speaker-1: Simon, I was it's all the Yeah. Agreed. Completely agree. All right. That was a lot. But hopefully now you realize we've got the background and the the we've got the background and the foresight and we got it. We got a lot to say. We got a lot. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Lots of hills we're gonna die on. We'll be bringing that back around. But we did more juice to squeeze and more to yap about. This is just the first of many to come. Yay. Yay. speaker-0: Yeah.