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From Validation-Seeking to Self-Trust · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:07
  Speaker B: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Matt Lansdell, and joining me today are Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Welcome, boys. So today we are talking about moving from validation seeking to. To self trust. This conversation is all about the journey back home to ourselves and we want to inspire you to come on this journey with us. We're going to be unpacking questions like what does validation seeking actually look like in everyday life? Why is self trust so challenging? And in what ways are you learning to come back home to yourself? Why I chose this episode. It's everywhere.
• 0:50
  Speaker C: It's everywhere in the.
• 0:51
  Speaker B: In the human experience. But I think I see a lot of it in the gay human experience. I think a lot of us have learned to substitute validation and attention for love. And it's not a substitute. It can help us find our way to it. But we need to learn how to find self love right from within. And validation can be a part of that journey, but not the. The full kaboot. So what we want you to get out of today's episode is just a deeper understanding of any patterns that you might be playing out that are keeping you stuck in cycles of giving away your power and what you might want to do about them. That's going to be our journey today. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review. This helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. And this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support the community by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes or you can tap the thanks button on YouTube. We also have early access option on Apple Podcasts. You'll get access early access to our episodes when we release them early. All of this support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we do thank you in advance for your generous support. Validation seeking. This is not a weakness, okay? It is part of being human, as I said earlier. And we all do it. We learn it part of classical conditioning and parenting. We learn that when our parents give us validation, we get praise. So this is something that is ingrained in all of our nervous systems, okay? But it can also be an adaptation to developed that's developed early in childhood where love, approval and attention felt conditional. So we had to earn it, right? Which is why we look to validation. We're like, as soon as I earn it, that means that I'm lovable, right? So instead of developing an inner compass, you might have developed an external radar system. And this is why I think gay men have a lot of validation seeking. Because this external radar system is almost like a form of hyper vigilance where we're looking and scanning our environments for who can validate us, who can make us feel lovable, who's going to accept us. And we land on that. And then we. What. What that does is we end up giving away our power. So everyone else has our power when we're. When we're solely attention seeking and we don't have an internal sense of self trust or self worth. So this episode is to inspire you to. To reclaim that. Reclaim your power from any ways that you might be leaking your power out to others in and handing them your power to tell them to tell you how lovable or how worthy you are. That's what self trust is. And we want to be able to take that power back, create balance in your life and how you access love and belonging, and those are the two important words here, love and belonging. Because those are the things I think we're all seeking. We seek validation because we want to feel lovable. We want to feel like we belong. So there's a lot of. A lot of tenderness in that, right? Because a lot of us go through life not feeling lovable or not feeling like we belong. And being gay is an injury to that. Which makes sense why we do this, why this is so prevalent in our community to be seeking validation outside of ourselves. Okay, let's go deeper. So the first question is, what does validation seeking actually look like, like in everyday life? And I want to start with you today.
• 3:50
  Speaker C: All the ways there's so. There's so many. I think I want to start by giving a terminology that I like to use because I love the point that validation seeking is not the issue necessarily. It's very human. We all need it, we all do it. But the way where it becomes an issue is the outsourcing of the authority. Kind of where you talked about leaking your power, I call it outsourcing your authority because you undermine yourself and you look to others for something that only you can give. And that's. That's the issue. So some examples of outsourcing your authority would be overtly justifying your needs and wants, right? Instead of like your needs and wants are Just what they are. But to try to justify. And like, everyone else needs to agree, right? Like, look, look, cc, you know, over explaining yourself, asking for too many opinions because you don't want to own a decision that is actually yours. These are some small ways that I think it can happen. But also notice where you're seeking permission from others when you can give that permission to yourself. As a coach, I see this a lot. People kind of want me to tell them you can do that. I'm like, you don't need my permission. If you're going to grant it to yourself through a conversation with me, great. But you actually don't need me to. To give you permission to do anything. Nobody does, right? I shouldn't say nobody. There are very few people in the world whose permission you actually need. Like, obviously, if you're in commit, commitment or a contract with somebody, then, yeah, those are different situations. But generally speaking, permission to want what you want, need what you need, wear what you wear, say what you want to say, do what you want to do. Most of the time, we don't really need permission, but we kind of look to the world around us to be like, okay, is this. Is this okay? Am I doing it right? So it's not always obvious. I don't think most people. I really don't think most people know they're doing it when they're doing it. It is conditioned. I mean, we live in a world where we have to share with a lot of other people, so it's okay to have a bit of that filter. I'm not saying go and be a sociopath, you know, but there's a difference between outsourcing all of your authority and undermining yourself versus having consideration for other folks. Very different story. Okay, There's. There's a nuance there. Reno's favorite word. So what does it look like being overly agreeable when you don't want to agree? Trying to be what others expect of you is kind of the way I've lived this out in my own life is okay. This is. This is the Michael that, you know, mom. My mom wants me to be. This is the Michael that, you know, my boss wanted me to be. This is the Michael that my boyfriend needs me to be. This is the Michael that so and so needs me to be. And then just doing that now, if that's authentic and natural to me, not a problem. I'm like, I'm giving you what you want. I'm wanting to give you that. Fine. We're all good. Everyone's Happy. It's all kosher. Where it becomes an issue is where I actually don't want to be that in that moment, or I don't want to play that role in that particular way, and that's where it becomes an issue. So there's nothing wrong with giving people the version of you you want, they want you think they want, because usually you don't actually know. But make sure that it's a want match. I want this version of Michael, and Michael wants to give you this version of Michael. Win, win. We're all winning here, okay? But what I find is, for me, the underlying. When I was thinking about this, the underlying thought is always this. Like, I love the idea of a writer. It's always like, am I okay? Do you like me? Are we good? Am I okay? Do you like me? Are we good? Am I okay? Do you like me? Are we good? And that is just constantly influencing what I say, how I act, what I do. And that's when it is a problem that. That's when you're kind of outsourcing. So hopefully I gave some examples in there, but I really wanted to underline the point of outsourcing. Authority is not the same as, like, I'm not. We're not advocating for people to be sociopaths here.
• 7:20
  Speaker B: What type of validation do you like getting from people?
• 7:23
  Speaker A: All of it.
• 7:25
  Speaker B: Specifically, though, like, what's one thing that you like being validated for?
• 7:28
  Speaker C: I mean, I love when people tell me I look good. That's like my. That. That always feels nice. It's like, oh, you look so good. And like, yes, honey, thank you. I love it. Like, it feels so nice to me. And then, of course, when people validate me for my work, that's also nice. Like, that's. That's actually more meaningful, I would say, because anyone can see me. Like, people can just see me. But it takes someone to really look into my work to be like, wow, Michael, that's actually really smart. That's really, really good of you. I really. I really appreciate the impact you're making. That means more to me because it means that they've actually gone deeper than just looked at me.
• 7:57
  Speaker A: I have a question for you about that, Michael. So what when someone tells you look good, how does it land for you? And like, what. What does it do for you? I suppose.
• 8:07
  Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's validation. It's like, I think I look good. So when someone else says it, I'm like, sweet. Like, that's really nice. And I. It just kind of under it kind of gives me a little bit of a boost. Like a nice. Like the dopamine. It's the boost of like, wow, you see me and you, you think I look good. So actually, in the moments where I don't feel I look good, then it feels. It actually lands differently when I. When I am confident in it and I get a complime moment. It's like, yeah, yeah, that feels great. But when I'm not feeling so hot and someone says that to me, I'm almost shaky with it. Like, are you sure? Right. Depends on my mood, of course.
• 8:40
  Speaker A: I love that distinction. Yeah, I love that distinction.
• 8:45
  Speaker C: Thanks for the question.
• 8:46
  Speaker B: What about you, Reno?
• 8:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, so I guess I want to kind of paint a picture because, like, when I think about. When I. When I think about validation and validation seeking, it's like, you know, we come into this world and we're dependent on our caregivers, like, immediately, right? For survival. And. And so we're. We're sort of in this process very promptly of like, survival seeking, care seeking from the person who's meant to take care of us. And then in addition to that, we look to them to understand and identify our external environment. And so it's almost like we come into the world immediately. Validation seeking, right. And so in that sense, it becomes an aspect of our survival. It's how we orient ourselves to the world and to relationship, etc. And it's also what informs how we orient ourselves to the world. So, I mean, we've talked about this ad nauseam on this podcast, like, you know, how our environment and our upbringing in those early years affect, like, how we move in the world as adults. Right? And some of that we want to keep, you know, but some of that we're kind of like, okay, cool, I think it's time to outgrow this. Right? And so, like, on my own journey, what I have noticed is that there was a point at which my tendency started to become too look kind of outside of myself to reinforce and affirm my identity. Right. And to reinforce and affirm, like, what I was seeing as true. The thing that makes my experience, maybe I want to say unique, but maybe not necessarily, is that I couldn't always trust my environment and I couldn't always trust the people I was looking to for that validation. And so, you know, very early on, I did start sourcing from internally. I'll. I'll. I'll sort of playfully use the phrase, like, fuck around and find out. Right? That's ultimately what that was about. It was like, okay, let me like, move through the world and just kind of figure things out on my own and try things for myself and sort of discover who I am out here on my own, regardless of what's happening externally. I didn't always have that validation, to be honest. And so I did have to kind of internally source it in a lot of ways. But yeah, I would say it shows up in, you know, checking to somebody else or people externally, things externally to reinforce what you might know is true or what you might suspect, or to look externally to reinforce what you're thinking or feeling or believing about yourself or your current lived experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:36
  Speaker B: What about for you? If I were to phrase the question, what does validation seeking look like in your everyday life, specifically? It's one thing that you, that you seek validation for.
• 11:45
  Speaker A: I think it's interesting. I'm glad you asked me that question because for me, probably my intelligence, I think it used to be looks in some ways, but it's more like, do people view me as somebody who is intelligent, like someone who has the capacity to provide information or guide them, or who is like, smart or insightful, et cetera? That's really important to me. And I think it's because, like, I don't know, I used to feel like school was a difficult place for me. And, And I also think that some of the ways that I was treated when I was younger sort of diminished my. Or challenged my, My sense of self trust when it came to, like, knowing what I know. Right. There was a conviction beneath that still, and an audacity behind that. Like, I was like, I know what I know. Um, and I think that that conflictedness, that tension between the two is what forged this like, intuitive strength and this strength of insight. So. Yeah, but people used to like, actually call me stupid, you know, or if you, if you're, if your intelligence or your capacity is measured by your capacity to sit in a classroom and read a book and regurgitate information and you can't do that, then, you know, of course you have it coming. Right? But I mean, I knew better. I was. And everyone else did too. Everyone who saw new that it's like, I'm not stupid. I just don't. This environment does not work for me. You know, I still catch myself on occasion really appreciating and sometimes wanting to be validated for what I know. But. But it's less now. Now I'm more comfortable just kind of. I just say, and I know it like it. It's true to my experience it's true to my understanding in the current moment, sometimes it changes and, you know, many times it's sort of. There's a universality about it. So I'm pretty comfortable in that regard now. But it still comes up from time to time where I'm like, I want to be seen as smart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 13:52
  Speaker B: That's a very big one, I think. And I think that's why a lot of people are high achieving or perfectionistic again, which. These are all things that get us validation for being, whatever, ambitious or smart or these sorts of things.
• 14:04
  Speaker A: So I will say this, though. Sometimes it's actually super fun. I like this term, himbo. Like, sometimes I actually really enjoy being seen as like, cute or hot and stupid. Like, sometimes I'll just lead into it. I'm like, yeah, I'm. I'm playing into that, like, himbo, that himbo stereotype right now because I just, I'm here for it. Yeah. But, yeah, what about you, Matt?
• 14:28
  Speaker B: I've never done that. Yeah, for me, you guys said a lot of them. You know, I, I think a lot of it is just about approval seeking, really, you know, for who we are. That's. I think that's what it comes down to. Or what we do. I think that's the biggest piece about this. And then, yeah, I've really, really gone on this journey with this for the longest time. Like, I remember, for those of you who are new to the podcast, you know, my journey started of this about seven years ago when I. I was purely only seeking external validation, and a lot of it was for my appearance and my body. I was doing fitness competitions, I was super ripped, these sorts of things, but I had no internal worthiness. It was all derived from outside myself. And I had this realization on stage, actually in my fitness competition that I'm like, this is all just so stupid. I almost had like a spiritual awakening on the stage where I was like, this is all so dumb. Like, why am I doing this? I'm being judged by a bunch of people that don't know me for something as superficial as my body. And that took me on this journey of the last seven years where I stopped working out. I've recently, in the last three months, started training again. But I have a very different relationship with training now. So, yeah, this is a. It's a really interesting thing. And I think what I've learned to do in this transformation is, you know, at the early stages of it, I was leading with ego, which was all like, oh, I don't care what people think about me, and I'm just gonna become this or that. And it was, I was all just in this energy of pushing away with anger the fact that I actually do care about what people think about me. And then, then I softened in the, in the second kind of few years and I started to learn like what self trust was and what self love was. And I started to realize that it's not about caring less about what people think about me, it's about caring more about what I think about me. And it's just this little bump up, that's it. Like, you know, because I really don't think as human beings we can care, not care what people think about us. I don't think it's humanly possible. We are literally hardwired to care what people think about us because we need belonging. Unless you're a sociopath, you need belonging. And shame will affect you if you don't have belonging. So yeah, so I've learned how to just do that and I've learned how to really stand in my energy. It's and of this is embodied for me. It's like an embodied feeling of like being strong in my body and being worthy and loving my body and not needing to look in the mirror for validation of my body. You know, I'm not saying that I don't, but I don't rely on it. It's not this, this main source of how I feel about myself. That's, that, that's, that's a big one. And that was, I'm telling you, seven years of working deep, deep and hard on trying to like heal that, that stuff. I've made some big strides. So I'm very proud of myself for that. But the one area that I actually think it's quite healthy and I'm learning how to do it because most of my life I didn't do it. I grew up not getting emotional validation like at all. Like in my family system, it wasn't something that neither of my parents had skills in. So I've had to learn how to emotionally validate myself, first of all. And then now I'm actually learning how to seek out emotional validation for my emotions. So when I'm in a big emotion and I can't regulate it myself, I need to reach out to a friend and talk about my emotions. And I have a lot of really great friends in my life that are good at validating my emotions. No matter what I'm feeling, they'll always lead with what you're feeling is valid and Normal. We all feel this feeling. Right. This is part of being human. And that, for me, is a big help.
• 17:41
  Speaker C: Right.
• 17:41
  Speaker B: It helps me regulate my nervous system. So. And that's a good example of how validation seeking can actually be, like, healthy. Right. And it doesn't have to necessarily be this big, bad thing. Yeah, yeah. I'd love if you. If you're loving these conversations, I'd love for you to come and join us in our connection circle. Do exactly what the three of us are doing today. We'll put you in your own little pods, and you'll be able to have conversations with other members of our community and other listeners of the podcast. If you. That sounds like something you'd be interested in, you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com and check out the event section. And before we start the next question, I want you just to take a moment and think about that question for yourself. Listener, viewer, what does validation seeking look like in your life? We've just given some of our examples. How is this showing up for you? Take a moment if you need to pause the podcast, pause the video and just reflect on that and see how this is showing up for you before we move into the next question. Right. Give you an opportunity to. To let this stuff land and personalize it to your own experience. All right, Michael, why is self trust so challenging?
• 18:39
  Speaker C: Well, we already. We already covered a little bit, so I think it's because. All social conditioning, but most people would rather be liked by everyone, even if it means not liking yourself.
• 18:51
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 18:51
  Speaker C: And I think that we're good at that. You know, I shouldn't say all. Well, a lot of us, especially us gay folks, are good. We become good people pleasers because we have to early on. But self trust flips that whole thing on its head. Right? Like self trust is. I trust myself to stand alone, in my opinion, in my desire, in my need, whatever that means, even if no one agrees with me. And that's really scary because then all of a sudden, you're standing out from the crowd. You're not belonging anymore. You're over here all alone, and the rest of the crowd is over there agreeing, and you're out here saying, no, that's not what I want, or that's not how I am. So it becomes hard because it requires a tolerance for disapproval. And I think we are trained to seek approval. And so a lot of people don't have that tolerance. As soon, as soon as you start to stand out in the. In a bad way or in any way, for some people, Nope. I want to keep my head kind of below the radar where nobody can see me. And so everyone will say that they want to trust themselves. But then the second that trusting yourself means disappointing other people, it means alienating yourself, it means it makes you unpopular. Then all of a sudden it's like, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to trust myself. I'd rather just, I'd rather just stick over here with everybody else where it's safe and no one's looking at me and I'm not. Yeah, I don't, I don't have to take a stand. So there's the gay angle of that, which makes total sense.
• 20:08
  Speaker B: Right?
• 20:09
  Speaker C: Like, I get it. Like, we had to fly below the radar to be safe. At least I did. You know, that was my coming out story. My coming out story was like, okay, I don't want people to find out I'm gay, so I'm going to have to try to just, you know, make myself kind of look like everybody else and do the things that other boys are doing and like pretend. Right. Because it was safety. It wasn't just, wasn't just feeling nice, it was like actual safety. I don't want to get bullied. I wasn't ready to come out yet. I wasn't prepared for that. So I learned that. And I think a lot of us did learn that as a, as a survival strategy. And we get good at it. And the issue is we bring that with us into adulthood. We don't really stop and say, hey, wait a minute, this thing that was a survival strategy has now become a cage. And, and it's not serving me anymore. And I think that's the part where, that's where the work is. The work is recognizing when this adaptation has now become not useful for you. Yeah. So for me, self trust is being able to say, it's scary. It sounds so nice. All these words sound so nice until it becomes real. And anyone who's done the work knows this. Anyone listening who's like, oh, yeah, I know what you mean. Because as soon as you start to trust yourself, it's scary. And like your nervous system, like your heart will pound and your hands get a little bit, you know, wet and like, you panic a bit because your nervous system is not used to this. Right. So for me, it means listening to feedback, other people's feedback, without letting it be a full on thesis or justification on anything. It's like, I can hear your feedback. I can, I can hear your criticism. But I'm going to take it With a grain of salt, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take some people's feedback more seriously, shall we say, than other people that I wouldn't take seriously at all. And having that ability to know the difference, that's the skill. It's not, as you said, Matt, it's not just, I don't care what people think, I don't think that's real. But knowing when to care what people think and whose opinion matters and why. I love to ask that question to in coaching is I'll ask, why does this person's opinion matter to you or who. Whose opinion matters? When it's like, oh, other people, I make them name the other person and I'll say, and why? Tell me why your, like, high school ex boyfriend's opinion matters to you on this particular topic. And the answer is always like, it doesn't. But for some reason we're stuck in those old patterns. Self trust is throwing that all away. I like to think of it as saying, even if everyone says, you know one thing, you know in your heart of hearts, you can look at the mirror and say, no, I know, I know differently. It requires a complete level of standing out that I think a lot of people are not comfortable with.
• 22:32
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 22:32
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 22:33
  Speaker B: It sounds like there's also like just this young, scared little gay boy inside of all of us that's afraid of. Yeah, not being liked, not belonging.
• 22:41
  Speaker C: Please like me. It's always the please like me. Yeah, please.
• 22:44
  Speaker B: That's what's so challenging. Right. It's like you have to actually meet that young boy and learn to love him and soothe him on your own. That's the hard part about, I think self trust really is. It's like you have to meet that part of you that is so scared that you're willing to abandon yourself.
• 23:01
  Speaker C: You know what, as you say that, it's actually even harder when you actually don't like yourself because then you really don't want to be faced with your own judgment because your own judgment is sometimes worse than what other people are going to throw at you. So there's that whole aspect as well. It's like, I need you to like me because I don't like me. So someone's going to have to do it. And again, there you are outsourcing. So there's a whole aspect of this is really learning how to like yourself, love yourself. Like that's. That's the journey.
• 23:26
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you said something about people pleasing or one of you two did, and that's what people pleasing is. It's a mechanism we learn early on to avoid having to feel shame and feel fear. Right. And that's what we do. We fawn. And that's again, that self abandonment. That's the opposite of self trust. Because we're saying, if you approve of me and you say I'm okay, then I'm okay. So we're outsourced self. We don't have a sense of self, a strong sense of self. We haven't spent enough time in developing a sense of self. And I actually, to be honest, I think a lot of gay men do this. A lot of gay men. People please until they don't. And a lot of that's where I think a lot of rage, a lot of anger. Right? So I see a lot of gay men that are in that energy because that's their adaptation to the fawning. They've now moved into a fight response instead of fawning. So they've gone completely the other way.
• 24:11
  Speaker C: Right.
• 24:11
  Speaker B: So how can we find this happy medium, which is self trust, which is being assertive or having boundaries or being centered instead of being on each end of the spectrum? And I have so much compassion for both sides of the spectrum because I've been on both sides. I understand what it's like. Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker C: When I'm about to do something and I'm not sure, like, let's say, I don't know, let's say I'm going to put something out there into the world, like a podcast or video or whatever, I will. I don't know how it's going to land, of course, but you have to put it out there first. Right. So I will look at it and say, whatever happens, I'm going to. I'm proud of this. Even if everyone says this is the worst thing I've ever seen, like, and I do that ahead of time, I'm like, okay, Michael. Like, we're good. Like, I got you. I got you on this. And then does. And sometimes it goes great and people love it. And then it's like. It's like that question Reno asked me. I'm like, oh, thank you for validating what I already thought was true. But then when it doesn't land the way I hoped it landed and people pan things or just doesn't get a response, then that's when I'm like, okay, I told you I was gonna have your back on this. And I do. And it's still good. Even if no one fucking liked it, it's still good. And that's. That's self Trust.
• 25:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I like that.
• 25:15
  Speaker A: That part, yeah. Matt, you answered the first question so beautifully. It, it sort of sparked me wanting to go back just briefly.
• 25:26
  Speaker C: Sure.
• 25:26
  Speaker A: And weave it into my current answer because I can be so meta sometimes. Right. So menace meta. Yeah. So like I'm sort of up here in concept. And then you asked me that question that brought me back to the present moment. I was like, oh, I love this. So I'm learning to sort of connect the two still. But yeah, I mean, I like straightened my hair, colored my hair, played with all sorts of different styles etc. Like I, I was constantly kind of trying to fit myself into what I thought people wanted and was really, really good at doing it too. Like, I was such a chameleon. It's a superpower. But also like sometimes to my own detriment, you know, I had a. I struggled with an eating disorder. At certain points in my life. I, you know, I would like avoid the sun because I didn't want my skin to get darker. I mean, there are so many things. Right. And so when you go back to that question, I have to sort of go in a time machine because I, like, I'm so far from a lot of that now. So I'm like, oh yeah, what. What did it look like in everyday life? And it was, it was stuff like that, like to the point where I was harming myself, you know, for validation. So to be really transparent, it's like, I may be here now, but I wasn't always here necessarily. And yes, there was a part of me that always was kind of here, just decalcifying sort of, you know, Michelangelo says I carved into like set the. I saw. What is it? I saw the angel in the stone and I carved until I set it free. It was like this was always there, you know. But to segue into our second question about why self trust is so challenging, it's like there was this calcification that happened. You know, my light was covered over by, you know, societal standards and expectations and external noise and all of that. And you know, I could list, like there are a couple of things, right. Like I think about capitalism, I think about productivity, I think about social media in this day and age, you know, all extensions of the way we earn a living, all extensions of the way we connect and belong, etc, right in this world. And so, you know, these things definitely make self trust challenging, especially when the notion of, or actual survival of safety, belonging are in jeopardy, you know, based on whether we are acting in accordance with this mutually upheld or, you know, Communally upheld sort of idea of how things are supposed to be and function. Michael, you said something really beautiful about capacity as well, and that's been really fun to. To sort of play with and experiment with this notion of our capacity. Like, I think that as well, makes self trust so difficult because, you know, it's. It's a. It's a process of growth, like moving into the tension of moving out of outsourcing and into, you know, insourcing can be a really difficult thing. So there's this tension that you need to learn to hold as you expand into becoming more of yourself and trusting more of yourself. And with that whole experience comes uncertainty and exposure and experience and even experimenting. And so, yeah, I think. I think that these are some. Some core elements that make self trust so challenging. You're betting on yourself. You're choosing yourself. And you don't know. Like, you may know, right? Some deeper part of you may know, but certainly you're sort of taking a chance, you know, every time you choose yourself, every time you trust yourself. And that's edgy, that's uncomfortable. So, yeah, it's challenging. And also, you know, as we'll probably discuss in the next question, I think those experiences, self expression, self exposure, self disclosure, you know, self trust, they forge that. That thing you were talking about earlier, Matt, like that centeredness, that groundedness, that capacity to move through the world and be almost imperturbable. But even more than that, to be like, I want to say okay with being perturbed, you know, because you're like, you're still. You know, it's not that the world doesn't shake you and rock you still. It's not your. Your, you know, you can handle it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:50
  Speaker B: You make me think of. And I think you've. I think it was you, maybe Reno, that you said I remind you of a tree or something at one point.
• 29:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, I did. Yeah.
• 29:57
  Speaker B: When you said that, I was like, yeah, it reminds me of, like, roots.
• 30:00
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:00
  Speaker B: Right. You think about a tree can only grow as high as the roots go underneath the earth. And that's what self trust is. And external validation is like, let's say you're a tree, you have no roots, and you're just relying on all the other trees around you to keep you up.
• 30:13
  Speaker C: Right.
• 30:13
  Speaker B: If those trees fall, then you fall too. Right. So it's like. It's just interesting. And that's not to say that you can't have some help from your little tree brothers to keep you standing, but you want to have Your roots too.
• 30:23
  Speaker A: Yeah. If I could just piggyback on that once more too, is to say, like, something, something. I think you've done really well and we've all done really well here, and maybe this is something that the community can, can practice as well. Is like coming back to this piece around self exposure, self disclosure, self expression. Like, we every week, like, put ourselves out on display and out in the world. You know, we. We share our inner world and our experiences out in the world. And I think that that practice as well, because sometimes we get praise and as we discussed earlier, sometimes we have people in the comments who are just not a fan of what we're up to here. And yet we show up again week in when we go and share ourselves, you know, and express ourselves and trust that what we're up to and what we're moved to bring into the world is meant to be here, regardless of what sort of feedback we get, whether again, it's good or bad, it doesn't change how we orient and that we show up here week in and week out regardless. So, you know. Yeah, I think this is a beautiful example of self trust. Yeah.
• 31:36
  Speaker C: Amen.
• 31:38
  Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for pointing that out once again. You guys ate most of the meat off the bone, so I'll. But I will, I'll try and personalize it because something that's really stood out for me is like, identity. My identity has majorly had to change. Right. Like, if you think about we did the episode on the Nice Guy, and I realized after we did that episode, I'm like, oh, my God, I'm such. I'm a nice guy in one area of my life. I'm not going to speak to it because it's. Yeah, it doesn't really. It's not really relevant. But. And so that really kind of pointed out for me, okay, I have an identity with this one role in my life where I'm the nice guy and I have a very strong identity around being the strong one or being the one that's there for everybody else. Hardly let people be there for me, right? Like, so there's all these identities that I have around, like self trust or external validation, whatever. You want to look at it and frame it as, you know, the achiever. Nothing bothers me. I used to carry that identity around forever, right. Just completely dissociated and numb to myself and then projecting it out to the world that nothing bothers me. It's like, well, no, you're just shut off, right? You're shut down. So I've had to heal a lot of these things. And I've had to, like, work on developing new identities that are rooted in my deep sense of self. And that's all happened through embodiment, right? And that's hard, right? Like, you have to meet your emotions, you have to meet your pain, you have to grieve. All the shit that happened as a child that put you into these cycles of self abandoning. And I think that's a big, big, big, big thing for me. So why it's so hard for me is because I have to fall back on myself. And I wasn't sturdy, so I was falling back on this flimsy flimsiness. So I had to learn how to develop sturdiness. Actually, funny story about that. I was doing EMDR with my therapist probably a year ago, and always at the end of the EMDR session, she would say, how are you feeling? And the word that would always come through as sturdy. I feel sturdy. Like, I feel like I'm just, like, really anchored in. And so, yeah, it's funny that I just used that word because it was such a powerful word for me to. For healing and learning how to do some of this work. And yeah, I think those are the main things. I don't want to repeat what you guys have said, but yes. Okay, again, folks, listener, viewer, take a moment and reflect on this. Why is self trust so challenging for you? Why is this hard for you? And if you want to learn about how to do some of these things, we have our coaching collection. Inside our coaching collection, we have two courses. Healing your shame, building better relationships, and then we've got 45 other personal development coaching videos on topics that are going to help you cultivate a deeper sense of self trust, self confidence, self worth. Michael Callan and I put a lot of work into these three courses, and we've recently just dropped the price of all of our courses pretty significantly. So go check them out. Ayngoingdeeper.com because we want to make them accessible to everybody and anybody that wants them. Question 3. In what ways are you learning to come back home to yourself? Michael?
• 34:13
  Speaker C: Love. I love. I take these on nice notes. Yeah, it's a. It's a work in progress. I think that for me, prevention is the best. So I think I'm starting to learn now when I'm tempted to leave myself to go with that analogy. So when I'm tempted, like, when I notice me doing that, like, do you like me? Do you like me? Have I earned your praise yet? Like that? When I see myself Going there, which develops a lot, which takes a lot of training and awareness to know. But when I see myself going there, that's when I can, like, in my own mind, just be like, okay, chill, chill, Michael. It's not a referendum on your worthiness right now. Like, you can just tone it down a notch or you can just chill out a bit. So the, you know, that might mean to me, when it's actually happening in real time, like softening the truth or even not saying the truth, wanting to say something and then just not saying it is usually how I do it. And instead saying, okay, no, this needs to be said. So you have to say, even if my voice is shaky, like in a. With a friend. With a friend or something like that, like those. Those hard conversations for me, those are still where I'm still putting in some work there. You had said, Matt, things like pretending I don't care. That's definitely been one. I've definitely swung on that end, as one of you guys has said it, swung on that end and then kind of like coming back to, like, center of. As I said, I do care because I'm human. But again, like being very discerning. That book, the Subtle Art of Giving a Fuck, I think, being. Being very discerning with which fucks I give and to whom. That. That's a big piece of it for me. So a question that helps me filter is what would I do in this situation if I wasn't trying to be liked? That always kind of brings me home, like, okay, then it goes back to, like, my values. It goes back to what I truly care about, what I really want to say. So if I wasn't trying to get approval or to be liked or to get to win something, what would. What would my action be? What would my behavior be? What would my words be? So I will say, though, that as someone who has done a lot of work in self trust, another thing that I think gets in the way, maybe I'm going back to the other question a bit, is when you start to do this work, the people around you who are used to you being a people pleaser or whatever are gonna have a very hard time, Very, very hard time, and they're gonna push you back in that box because they do not want you to trust yourself, right? If they are bad players, the people who love you, truly love you, they're gonna. They're gonna love this for you and empower you, but a lot of other folks won't like it. So, you know, my journey went from please like me to suddenly, I don't care as much what you think. And then I got labeled a lot with selfish and arrogant. And that's really hard for someone who, for. For someone who has gone their whole life trying to be liked and all of a sudden getting labeled with selfish and arrogant. It's like, whoa, that, that hurts. So I think self trust is self respect and you have to be willing to let people, especially people who already know you as not like that you're going through the shift. But it's a really good tell of who's your actual friend and who actually cares about you versus people who maybe don't because your actual friends are going to be so happy for you. They're going to want this for you, they're going to help you, they're going to love you every step of the way. But a lot of other folks are going to say, oh, what the hell? What's. He's gotten too big for his britches. He's. He's so selfish now because he, how dare he prioritize himself. How dare he say no? Or the biggest one is how dare he thinks he looks good, right? People say this to me all the time. It's like, you know, chill out there. I'm like, no, I look fucking great. But so many guys have a problem with that because they themselves are insecure and so they can't handle someone thinking that they look good when they spend so much of their time tearing themselves down in the mirror is what I've noticed. Versus the guys who are like, yeah, man, you look great. Chances are they probably also have a pretty good sense of self or self trust. It's not even about what the body looks like. It's not even about that. It's just your relationship with yourself. So folks who have self respect know their worth, what they bring to the table. And I think it works relationally as well. Like even with the three of us, right? Like, we have a lot of respect for ourselves and we respect each other. And it's not in this, like, because I have this, you have less. Like none of that stuff. It's all very abundant in nature. But yeah, those are the areas that I'm still working on at the most. Is that radar. Do you like me yet? Do you like me yet? Do you like me yet? And learning to bring myself back.
• 38:14
  Speaker B: Gay men Resource guard. It's like, if you're hot, that means I'm going to get less ass. I'm going to get less attention. So it's like, it's it's, it's. I think women do that with each other. I think straight men do that with each other because it's people. It's a scarcity mindset and it stems from envy, right? So it's terrible that people would be like that because it's like, yeah, why wouldn't you want someone else to shine and be and feel beautiful, Right?
• 38:35
  Speaker C: And notice that when it's, when it's like the other person, right? Like if someone else is saying, oh, I look great, or I did such a good job, like, notice how that lands for you. That might be something. Like, if you can't just be happy for them and say, wow, good for you, that's great. I'm so happy you've had that success or I'm so happy you've had. You're happy in your wonderful, amazing relationship or whatever it is that you might think that you're. You're seeking validation from. When other people seem to have that or appear to have that, it could be very hurtful. And that's a really good place to start your work.
• 39:04
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting because I think about it, if it's coming from self trust and somebody's like, just truly humble and they're saying, I love how I look. I feel great today. I feel sexy. That's very different than somebody who's like, you can tell they're seeking and they're like, their ego is just like, like really wanting that from people. I have a harder time being like, yeah, you're beautiful to a person like that. So I'm trying to relate to both sides of the coin here. It's like somebody that's like very egoic. I find it's hard for those, for me to compliment those people, but I can easily compliment somebody who's humble and.
• 39:35
  Speaker A: Michael. Yeah, Michael, you said something and I thought about the progression for me and it's a constant journey, but it's like, you know, from please like me to I don't care what you think, to I sort of added to this, like, to I like me and see me and love me to I see you and I love you. And what stands out to me, I guess, is that as time has gone on, I have and as I've come home to myself more and more and developed a relationship understanding of myself and my own humanity, it's like, it's so much easier to look at the person across from me and even in some of their, like, shittiest moments, be like, I see what's going on, like, I see you. I see you. You know, and that I think that's been really profound. And it's also proof of progress and growth, you know, me being so at home in myself that regardless of how you're behaving toward me, like I'm still good. It doesn't mean that I'm not touched by, in, in whatever way, whether it's heard or moved in some positive, generative way by the world. Right. I'm not untouchable. I would not say that. But I would say that I am increasingly connected to the part of me that is kind of untouchable in the way, you know, the light in me that is my birthright, the, you know, the love in me that is my birthright. Right. To, to. So thank you for that inspiration, Michael. What you should. I appreciate it. Experiments, practice, presence, self love, self choosing, becoming my own bestie and lover and parent and guide. Like, these are all ways I'm learning to come back home to myself. And you know, those are maybe big ways of saying, like meeting my day to day life as a, like a meditative practice, you know, exposing myself to life, expressing, disclosing, and then sort of being met by life in relationship to that and learning to hold whatever's there. I think that. And, and again to come back to myself, like through the breath, through noticing, through awareness. All of that's been really helpful. Michael, you touched on this already. But prioritizing my experience, that's been a big one, you know, because I definitely learned to kind of outsource my experience or to abandon myself or to maybe not trust that what I sensed or what I was experiencing was real and true and trustworthy. So that became. Sure. Yeah. And. And then I guess another tool that has helped me to come back home to myself. And this is like a really special one too. But the work of Byron, Katie. Yeah. Has been really, really powerful because what I have found that work does is it keeps me seated in reality. And not the reality that occurs in my mind and then is projected onto the external world, but reality. Like what is true in this moment, you know, beyond my thinking and my projections and all of that. What is, is actually true in this moment that will slice through all the, you know, and bring me right home. Yeah. And it's uncomfortable. As for my ego, like, yeah. That work, it's not. It's at first, it's like. And then by the end you're like, oh God, yeah, yeah.
• 43:12
  Speaker B: Can feel confronting.
• 43:13
  Speaker A: Oh yeah.
• 43:14
  Speaker B: I think Katie's great.
• 43:17
  Speaker A: What about you, Matt?
• 43:19
  Speaker B: Yeah, I wrote Down. So a few things here. So coming back home to myself, it's been a big part of my journey. First thing for me was I had to say am scared. That was not a thing that I was able to connect with. I had so many protector parts to fear that I was like, I'm not a person who's afraid. But start peeling back the layers and you come start coming home to yourself. It's like oh yeah, there's a lot of fear there, right? Like fear of failing, fear of not being liked by people, fear of being outcasted. All the things, right? Human beings have fear. So I am scared of fill in the blank, be with that, own that and start to integrate the protector parts that are keeping you away from facing your fear. And because it's only through facing our fears that we will able to be able to come home to ourselves and land in. Because the nervous system will be where we land into, right? And if it's loaded with all these fears and you have all these protectors protecting you from connecting with it, you're never going to be able to connect with your nervous system in a safe way. Right? So that's the first thing for me that's been huge. And then I think Michael, you said this. But I'm going to just frame it in my own way. Learning to pause before abandoning myself. I have a very strong pattern of saying yes. And I have. My whole life I've had to like say I, I actually lead with no's. Now I'll be like, well not even a no. I'm just like, let me think about it and like I'm gonna tune in and I'm gonna feel in to myself and if there's any instance that I might be abandoning myself, I'm just gonna say sorry, this isn't an alignment. So I've had to say no a lot in the last few years. It's rubbed me in like so many, like so painfully because I don't like disappointing people. But now I feel like I've built the muscle of disappointing people and being okay with it. Which is actually how I've developed a lot of power. Power and self trust is moving through that. Slowing down. Can't emphasize this enough, people. We have every reason in the world to speed up and, and go into that flight energy. So try and practice just slowing down and be more and do less. I can't emphasize enough how much further I've gotten ahead by slowing down. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but I'm way, way further ahead in my path now than I was before. And I've, I've learned how to really slow down and like, care less and do less and these sorts of things. And it's really had such a strong advantage for me. So even as an entrepreneur, because I know all the entrepreneurs out there are like, yeah, right, how can you slow down and get ahead? But I'm telling you, I've done it. And you don't have to be hustling for your worth. You can find it internally. And then caring less about my appearance, that's been a big one. I've had to really detach from, from attachment to my appearance and just letting myself find my essence, my energy, who I am as a, as a, as a human being on a soul level. And that's been a big part of it. Because when we care too much about our appearance, I, we're. We're in ego, not saying that you can't, you can't do both. I do think that when we have such an attachment to our appearance, it's. It's not healthy. And guess what? We're all heading in the direction of not looking very good. Right? We're all aging. We're all going to have saggy asses at some point. And so why not start now, right, with learning how to look?
• 46:07
  Speaker C: We'll be sexy. We'll be sexy old man, with this. Yes.
• 46:12
  Speaker B: So, yeah, those are mine. It's always a work in progress, folks. This is not a destination to arrive to. I think this is just little, little choices that we make every single day that help us stay aligned to our truth.
• 46:26
  Speaker C: I want to add something to what you had said, Matt, because you were speaking for sure in my lane about the prioritizing time and access. That's such a big one. Thank you for naming that, because I laughed when you said it. Because if you want to practice self trust and the discomfort of self trust is, uh, the, you know, one of the things that I do, I'll speak for me here is I, when I'm in that space of like, kind of seeking validation is, like I said earlier, trying to justify, justifying like, this, this is what I want. And like, please agree with what I want instead of just saying this is what I want, period. So practice the line for anyone out there. Because I want to. If someone says, oh, why are you doing that? Just because I want to, period. Not everyone needs an explanation. Some people may. You might want to say, yes, because I care about you and I love you or whatever, that you might want to explain yourself. But most people in the world, I'm going to say 99.9% do not, not deserve or need an explanation for. Because I want it. Especially if it comes to things like taking a break, relaxing, having fun, you know, saying no. And they'll say, oh, why can't you? I'll say, because I don't want to. Yeah, right. Very uncomfortable for a lot of folks. But that's how you know you're in self trust is when you can do that. And I'm not saying it's easy. You're still going to come up with all your. That's work.
• 47:34
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm learning that on my, on my socials and stuff. And just like people will say, well you should justify. You're a, you're a public figure, you're educating people on things. And I'm like, like if I'm sharing my personal experience, I don't have to justify.
• 47:47
  Speaker C: Right?
• 47:47
  Speaker B: Like if I'm sharing data that I have an opinion about, sure, I'll maybe ask me to justify it and I will. But I'm never going to justify my personal experiences. They're mine. I own them. And yeah, this was lovely boys. Thanks for coming on this journey as always, sharing your beautiful hearts and minds and for the listener, viewer. Yeah. Take a moment and contemplate this last question as well. In what ways are you learning to come back home to yourself? Very important question. Maybe pull out your journal and do some journaling about that. What are little microchoices you can make each day that are going to help you align to yourself? If you want to make a donation to our community, you can do that through the thanks button on YouTube. There's a button in the show notes that you can hit and then early access option on Apple if you're wanting to get access to our episodes early. We thank you in advance for that and we'd love to see you come to one of our connection circles. Those also do support our community community and keep us up and running. So come and join us there. Everything will be found on gay mensbrotherhood.com Much love everybody.