Latest / Shouty Brain / #16: Maddie Runs Wild
Transcript
- Trevor Holland: Hello, my name is Trevor Holland and welcome to Shouty Brain, the podcast from a late diagnosed Audi HD man on a voyage of discovery to find my people in a neurotypical world. I hope you're all doing very well this week. I'm doing pretty well as well. Thank you very much for asking. If you've been keeping in touch with me on Instagram, you would have seen that I'm still going through my period of burnout as I was last week. It's alright, we persevere. this week I'm joined by a very special guest by the name of Maddy. known on Instagram as Maddie Runs Wild, who I very strongly recommend you follow. Now Maddie is a hybrid athlete with Aud. Now I found out during the course of recording this episode what hybrid athlete actually is and it's very, very interesting indeed. She's a fantastic guest, really, really interesting insights into what it is to be neurodiverse and an athlete and the experiences that she's had on some of the events that she's been participating in. recently and the ones that she's planning to participate in in in the coming months. Really, really, really good conversation. So as I said, I really strongly recommend you follow Maddie on Instagram at Maddie RunsWild. And while you're at it, give me a little follow as well at Shouty Brain. And as I always ask, if you do enjoy this podcast, please do subscribe, like, comment, turn on your notifications, otherwise interact. You know, comment, get in touch, all that stuff that us content creators really love. If you wouldn't mind, that'd be much appreciated. But without further ado, is Madi enjoy. Maddie Runs Wild, welcome to Shouty Brain. Maddie: Hello, thanks for having me. Trevor Holland: Hey. Yeah, you're more than welcome. Thank you for joining us. I say us, me. first thing on a first thing on a Tuesday morning. how are you, my friend? How are you doing? Maddie: I'm I'll be honest, I'm not actually a morning person, I'm not sure why I agreed to this at this time because it's not normally my time of day but I think it just did fit in around my schedule today so we're here now. Trevor Holland: Was it my idea doing it in the morning? Maddie: No I think he sent me list of times to choose from and I just chose this one. Trevor Holland: I think to be fair, most of the times that I sent you were mornings. I'm s Maddie: They might have been, yeah. It's fine. I train a lot in the evenings, so I'm not usually free. So this is fine. I'm awake, I'm here. Trevor Holland: Do you do you train in the mornings ever? Maddie: No. Do you know, I say this at the gym because I think there's this sort of people who train at 6am or 7am in the morning are like superior. I might get told off for saying that but I think there is a thing around that if you get to the gym before work, a sort of superiority type thing but I said the other day I'm never gonna be a morning gym person and like I'm totally fine with that, that's okay. Trevor Holland: Well you gotta be. You gotta be fine with fine with whatever your whatever your thing is. I mean I I I'm not Maddie: Yeah Trevor Holland: I'm not an athlete. and I don't really work out anymore. I used to work out a lot, but I think the point I'm about to make is that I for some reason, I don't know why, I am far more productive in the morning than I am at any other time of day. But rest assured, Maddie, I do not feel superior for that. I I I I I just I Maddie: Hahaha Trevor Holland: I I am just I reach a certain point in the day and I'm kinda useless to anybody. And that normally Maddie: Really? Trevor Holland: happens. Yeah, you know the traditional kind of three PM slump that people in the in the world of work get. So they have their lunch and then they come back from lunch and then they do a bit of work and then they have a bit of a slump. It Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: happens to me every single day, whether I'm working or not. I have my l once I've had my lunch, I don't really get my I can't really do anything else. Maddie: It is done for the day. Trevor Holland: I I'm I'm fine I'm kinda done. Although contractually I I I'm I'm not. So I have to still be there and do stuff, but I feel like I'm completely useless in the afternoon. In the morning I the to pull the curtain back a little bit and I might get in trouble for this, but Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: because I'm so productive in the mornings, I get as much done as anyone else would get done for the whole day, so I kinda get away with it. You know what I mean? Maddie: I love that. I love that. Trevor Holland: Yeah, choose your battles. You know that you're you know that you're hot to trot, Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: so just do it, man, and then put your feet up. Maddie: I think this is such a... is this something that you've learnt because I think for me I have definitely learnt to roll with my like peak hours so to speak rather than you know I used to work in a standard 9 to 5 job and actually getting up that early and having to get ready and being like switched on and ready to perform by 9am was just not actually the thing that made my brain the happiest at all. and it took me a long time to learn that actually like my best hours probably start from like 2 p.m. in the afternoon till 10 p.m. at night you know that's my nine to five so to speak Trevor Holland: Well, yeah, I mean I I, as many other neurodiverse people will attest to, I'm not very good at picking up on the signals my body's trying to send me. So Maddie: Mm. Trevor Holland: it took me years to actually work out that I'm better in the morning. I just thought, you know, 'cause I I've done nine to fives or or or variations thereof for my whole working life. And at the moment, I don't I'm I'm technically an out of hours manager. I I start work at half ten and I work till seven PM. and I've done that for the last five or six years, Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: even even in the knowledge that I'm actually better in the mornings, but I just kind of Maddie: in the morning. Trevor Holland: mu muddle through. But yeah, I've learned that about myself in the last couple of years. To the extent now where even though I don't start work until half ten in the morning, I am routinely up and about by five at the latest. Maddie: Wow. Trevor Holland: I just and this is actually a bit of a bone of contention for me at the moment 'cause one of the reasons I'm so burnt out is because I don't sleep Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: very well. So I I get up super early every single day, but I get loads of shit done in the morning. And that's Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: one of the reasons why by the time the afternoon rolls around I'm pretty fucked up because I've I've already been up for several hours by the by the by the time I start work, you know what I mean? Maddie: You used all your spoons up. Yeah. Trevor Holland: my god, my spoons. I don't have many spoons to start with. but I'm really inter Maddie: That's what I think! I think I only wake up with like three spoons. That's all I have each day is like three spoons Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: and then I have to decide where they go. dear. How do you get more spoons? Does anyone know the answer to that? Trevor Holland: I wish I knew how to get more spoons. Maddie: Me too. Trevor Holland: I only became familiar with the I only became familiar with the concept of spoons very recently in when I was speaking Maddie: Really? Trevor Holland: to another guest a few a few weeks ago. Well, because I I'm I'm fairly new to the neurodiverse social media space. so there's terminology like that. is something that's quite new to me. And I I I had to ask my I had to ask Sam Munster, my my guest a few weeks ago, what the fuck she was talking about because she kept talking about spoons and I kept hearing it and I'm like, What what is this sh shit about spoons that people keep saying? Yeah. Maddie: feel it. Plus spoons! Trevor Holland: But it makes perfect sense. And yeah, I don't I don't have many. And and you Maddie: No. Trevor Holland: say that you you gotta kinda dec decide w what's going to get your spoons that day, but sometimes that choice is taken away from you by the environment. So you've made you've made plans Maddie: Yes, they're true. Trevor Holland: for what your spo what you've made spoons for how you're gonna allocate so Sorry. You've made plans for how you're gonna Maddie: Hello? Trevor Holland: allocate your spoons. And then forces, unknown forces kind of conspire to make you do something that you weren't anticipating, and then that was the spoon I saved for this. So now what am I gonna do? Because my spoon for that is now fucking gone. Maddie: Yeah Trevor Holland: so a bit of a meandering intro, but thank you for joining us, Maddie: Alright. Trevor Holland: Maddy, and you're the first You're the f first sports person that I've spoken to. so I'm very Maddie: Really? Trevor Holland: interested to speak about how how as a as an athlete, has as a neurodiverse athlete, how that kind of plays into your experience of of it. So talk to me a little bit about your your entry into becoming a an athlete. Maddie: my entry. Yeah, I am doing it a lot. Trevor Holland: Well, how you kind of got you know, 'cause now you're you're you're doing it you're doing it a lot now. Is it is is it a hobby that got out of hand, what is it? Maddie: Just took over my life. It has definitely become a special interest, I would say. But I feel like it's actually only recently that I've got back into sport. And I think it was probably a special interest I had when I was younger that kind of got squashed or life took over in other ways and that interest wasn't kind of available to me. So it was always really sporty when I was young and in my teens. And then, think it was just about a year and a half ago, I moved down to Cornwall, where I live now, and I'd lived here previously and loved it. then I moved down and I realised I only had like two people that I knew here. So to try and meet people, I joined a gym and from there I just sort of rediscovered my absolute love for sport, for running. I found that lifting and using weights, the sensory input that you get from that was so regulating and helpful. and it really did like, it almost like, I was gonna say like changed my life but it's definitely changed the way that my brain works and the ability I have to sort of emotionally regulate because I use exercise to support my sensory needs is like nothing I've ever experienced before, know, not things through therapy, using medication. stuff like that. I've actually reduced my ADHD medication since I increased my sport activities. Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: I'm not saying that's the same for everyone at all but I've found this alternative that I really like. And yeah, it's just from there become such a huge part of my life really which I'm so grateful for and I just kind of wake up every day and I'm so excited to go to the gym and... It is my safe space and I've found such a great community at the gym. I think I've spoken on my social media before but the way that you can socialise with people at a gym is very unique in the sense that you don't have to have this forced sit down conversation with people. You're just doing an activity side by side and you feel like you're socialising a lot and get that social benefit from it. without I guess the tax of having to have a full blown conversation with someone constantly. Yeah. Trevor Holland: Mm. Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's it's no secret that that physical exercise is is well known as as being one of the one of the best one of the best things you can do for your mental health, especially when it comes to kind of going outside and doing out outside activities. But what what do you think what Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: is it about what is it about exercise, running, lifting weights, that that regulates your nervous system. What but for you specifically, Maddie: Yeah Trevor Holland: what what is it about it that that does that for you? Maddie: I the hyperactivity I get with ADHD, I don't have the inattentive part, I'm a hyperactive subtype and I think it's always been so raging inside me that now it actually has an outlet and somewhere to go. So just that in itself Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: is so helpful. And I think the running... Running is outside, know, and I get to go to the coast here, now I'm in Cornwall, you know, I can run by the ocean, which is just amazing sensory-wise. And it's very repetitive, Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: I think, the motion of it. So when you think about like autism and stimming and that repetitive movement, it is a form of stimming in itself, I think, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: for me. And the way, you know, like I've done quite a lot of research around this, I think it's the proprioceptive input. I don't know masses. about it. But it's like that, you know, people are similar, like you would use a weighted blanket or something. It gives you Trevor Holland: Right. Maddie: that same kind of input that can be really calming and helps you understand like where your body is in space and connect a lot more with your body as well, which I think is why it helps with that, like alexithymia, like not understanding what's going on in your body. So yeah, just It's like the first time in my life I feel like I'm actually living inside myself rather than trying to escape myself. Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: That's that's fascinating. I suppose because the w you know, I've I've I've lifted a fair amount of weights in my life, but Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: not for a long time. it's definitely an argument for it in i i in in the the extreme sensations you get in your body when you're lifting weights. it it really does kind of connect you to your body in a way that other things don't. And that's a really interesting way of thinking of it 'cause I'd never really considered that before. But it does. I mean it reminds Maddie: Mmm. Trevor Holland: you that you it reminds you that you and your body are actually this are actually one. and you're y you're you're Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: not you're not having an out of body experience your whole life because this pain I'm feeling right now is very real. Maddie: It's very real, yeah, when you're pushing yourself a lot. And it's so true, think, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: you know, like dissociation in the neurodivergent community is quite high, like the rates of it are quite high, because we're always trying to like escape our reality, because often it feels so painful, you know, we don't want to be living in this constant like sensory overload and discomfort that I think life can bring a lot of the time. So yeah, to have a positive, I think, connection with your body and your own experiences is really, really good. Yeah, but I do think there is Trevor Holland: When you Maddie: I was thinking about like lifting weights because I think there's also I Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: was chatting last night I was doing some some back squats and I do struggle with like there are sensory aspects of it that are quite difficult so like a metal barbell for me is like really difficult for me to have that on my back or even in my hands so trying to find ways around that at the moment that make it less sort of sensory painful, I think is the only way to describe it. And that's been quite an interesting journey of like, you know, lot of fitness is geared towards neurotypical people and how can we adapt certain things to make the gym a more comfortable place for people who are neurodivergent because, you know, I think I'm quite fortunate that I love going to the gym and that is my safe space for a lot of neurodivergent people. the rates of neurodivergent people who are physically active are much lower than in the neurotypical population. So I think that's also something I find quite interesting, how can we make it more accessible for neurodivergent Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: people and how can we adapt things to make it more sensory friendly in a gym environment. Trevor Holland: 'Cause it really isn't sensory friendly, is it? I mean, I haven't I haven't been to a gym in in quite a long time and Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I used to go to the gym, you know, four or five times a week, but that was prior to any form of diagnosis. so I didn't really understand why I felt so uncomfortable in the gym. But it's it's an absolute shit show for from from Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: a sensory point of view, because of the noises coming from every direction. You you've got you've got music that you won't necessarily like being pumped out. you've got the constant sound of grunting and groaning and and and people around you like spraying sweat all over the place. And then you've got the s the sound of the clunking weights coming from all over the place. You've got all the conversations going on around you. You there are just people everywhere. people are getting really close to you or you're going onto a machine that someone else has used and they haven't completely wiped all their sweat off it and you're like, Christ Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: It's it can be it can be a bit of a nightmare. When I used to go to the gym, I f I would I would wear noise cancelling headphones and I would listen to podcasts and stuff like that because I wanted to go into my own little world while I was there as much as possible. Do you do the same thing? Do you do you because I I've I've seen some you know, when you when you're running, for example, when you're running outside, doing your your coastal trails that you do, do you do you take in the surroundings from an auditory point of view or do you p wear headphones when you're running? Maddie: Yeah, so good question. think this is quite representative of sensory needs in general where actually they're always changing. So sometimes I will need my noise cancelling headphones and other times I don't, I'm fine. And I think that's also Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: where the contradiction of ADHD and seeking out stimulation and autism and needing to block out stimulation. There's also that balance as well that's always going on. So sometimes I think it must seem so strange from the outside, know, like some days I'll rock up to the gym and I've got my noise cancelling headphones on and I can't, I won't even be able to speak to anyone that day. And the next time I'm going in and I'm like all over the place and like, la la la la la, running around and chatting to everyone and. not even listening to instructions and all of this, you know, and it's, yeah, so it just depends really on how I'm feeling. So sometimes running is block out the world, listen to, you know, the exact same playlist that I listen to every time I go running and just, you know, look at the ocean. But other times it is like I'm listening to the ocean for me is really regulating. So sometimes I'll even run there and take my headphones Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: off for a bit and just... just stare out to sea and that's magic. Often I'll just cry because I find it so sensory overwhelming, know, it's beautiful. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah, it does t kind of it does depend on on on who's in the driving seat on any particular given day, right? So Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: yeah, so some some days you you need to be disconnected because being connected is too much. It's too overwhelming Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and and you need to separate yourself a little bit from from the world. But sometimes you really crave being connected to it, right? So you will you will you will listen to all the sounds and I think yeah, a lot of it for me comes down to how many spoons I've got that day, right? So if I'm if I'm feeling already overwhelmed, if I'm having not a not a great time in my headspace, my the barriers that I put up to to help me keep the sensory overload at bay a compromise. So it because Maddie: Mm-hmm. Trevor Holland: the energy it takes for us to kind of keep the sense the sensory world at bay sometimes is very tiring. So if you're already tired then you find it much harder to do that. So you find it much easier to be overwhelmed by it. So those are the days when I will think I need the noise that I hear to be noise of my own choosing and that that's all I want to be able to hear. But then some some days when you're feeling feeling a little bit more clear headed and stuff, you you really love hearing all all the noises because I'm having a day where I can handle them. And so there's take it while I can and it's it it can be it can be beautiful hearing the hearing the the noises around you but then other times it's just like, my God, shut up. You know what mean? Maddie: Yeah, and it's so hard isn't it because I think so often I, you know, I'm still trying to understand myself and my own sensory experience and maybe part of it would never fully be able to understand because there just often doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why one day I can tolerate, I don't know, my cat meowing at me because she's hungry and the next day it's the most aggravating noise. in the whole entire world and I wish I didn't have a cat, you know, like, probably shouldn't say that because I love my cat a lot, it's, it's, you know, it's, those things you love can become Trevor Holland: No. Maddie: something you hate, you know, because it's, it's so painful that meow in my brain becomes Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: so painful. It's, it's odd. Trevor Holland: It's and it is unpredictable, isn't it? Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: as yeah, and 'cause I've got a cat. I'm I'm a cat person as well. And Maddie: Yay! Trevor Holland: sometimes I'll challenge myself and I yeah, I know. Yeah, I'm I'm definitely a cat guy. Maddie: Yeah Trevor Holland: sometimes I'll test myself, I'll hear the I'll hear the ri the relentless meowing and I'll be like, Today I'm going to let it wash over me like water off a duck's back. Today I'm gonna be zen about this. This noise would normally piss me off to the point where I will scream. But today it's not gonna happen. Today I'm gonna be nice and calm. I'm gonna just say this is a cat just being a cat and this is just part of the world's experience. And I'll be I can do it. I can do it I can do it. And then I can't do it. And I'm like, my gosh, shut up. And it just happens Maddie: Shut up. Trevor Holland: and it happens. I can't stop it. Maddie: But it just comes out. It's so bad. We love them, but Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: honestly, that meow sometimes. Trevor Holland: And you'll stand there, I'm not sure if you do the same thing, but I'll I'll have conver well, very one sided conversations, I must say. But I'll I'll I'll I'll say to Sam, the cat, I'll be what is it you could possibly desire? I have given you everything that a c that a growing boy could ever possibly require in the world. You are luxury, you've got everything you could ever wish for. What is it you possibly need right now that you're not getting that means you have to shout at me? And he never tells me. Maddie: can't. It's very rude of him. How dare Trevor Holland: Do you get do do that? Do you do do you do the same thing? Maddie: he. Yeah, I'd say why are you meowing? My cat is pampered. She's my baby. I love her. She gets everything she needs. Probably too much. And yeah, she will just meow. I don't know what she wants. I think I should learn to speak cat really. That would be good, wouldn't it? Trevor Holland: Well, I think there should be accommodations. I think d do we need to learn cat or does the cat need to learn human a bit better? Because we let we l Maddie: Hahaha Trevor Holland: we l we' we're letting the cat live in our house. You know, we Maddie: you Trevor Holland: we're already doing a lot for you. Maybe you should Maddie: Yeah, but it's that thing, isn't it, that actually we're living in the cat's house. That's how the cat sees it. Trevor Holland: Yeah, we're living in the cat's house. It just so happens that we're paying for it. It's it's it's their house but Maddie: Yeah, sad times. Trevor Holland: we're the ones paying for it. God, they are luxury, aren't they, the bastards? Maddie: Yeah, they have the best life. I always think I would like to be a cat, I just think that would be great, wouldn't it? Trevor Holland: they don't give a shit, do they? They Maddie: BAH! Trevor Holland: don't give a shit. Because I'm I'm I'm an introvert by nature. my Maddie: Yes. Trevor Holland: my my ADHD type is inattentive, so I I I I've always been in insular and introverted. So whenever I see a cat just being completely unapologetic about who they are and what they want. And they don't make any excuses. They don't have to justify anything to anybody. They're just doing their shit and they do not care what you think about it. I'm like, my God, I wish I could be like you. Then I resent it. Yeah. my God. Maddie: It'd be so liberating, wouldn't it? Trevor Holland: It's like this is mine now. And I don't care what you think. I'm gonna sit here. This I'm this is the Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: middle of a I'm in the middle of a main road. I'm gonna sit here. Maddie: Hahaha Trevor Holland: And you're gonna have to move around me. You're just gonna have to adjust your entire day around me and I don't give a shit. my god, imagine being that. Wow. Maddie: We should just have a neurodivergent uprising and all be more like cats. Trevor Holland: I think the world would be a very different place for us. that's not a bad idea, is it? Wow. Maddie: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Trevor Holland: Maddie, what is Maddie: Yes. Trevor Holland: what is a hybrid athlete? Maddie: What is a hybrid athlete? It is where you're combining two different sports or types of training that sort of contradict each other. So for Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: me it's strength training and running. So it's quite difficult to get a high mileage and improve as a runner whilst you're also trying to improve your strength. generally those two systems will Trevor Holland: Right. Maddie: work against each other because you're trying to build muscle through strength but running you're using up a lot of energy and so it's difficult to build muscle. That's essentially the definition. It's a combination of different things. Trevor Holland: Got you. Okay. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And if I was to ask you to choose between those Maddie: Mmm. Trevor Holland: two activities, would you be able to? Maddie: Aww, lid I. I would probably choose running I think Trevor Holland: Yeah? Why's that? Maddie: Yeah. But for running you do some strength training anyway because you do need strong Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: legs. I don't know actually. I would really miss hybrid training. That's really hard. I hope no one ever makes me make that decision in Trevor Holland: Yeah, I mean I Yeah. Maddie: life. It's cruel. my god, you see my brain went there then? I thought this was actually like a real life question that I was gonna have to decide. Trevor Holland: I'm just letting you know I'm not trying to I'm not trying to enforce that I'm not trying to enforce that choice on you now. I'm not making you make the Maddie: my gosh that was very intense that moment. Yeah. That's a k-dick, right? Thanks. Brilliant. Badger, I'm having my hybrid career's Trevor Holland: Yeah, sorry, I didn't want to put I didn't mean to take you there. It was high it was hypothetical. Don't don't worry, you can st you can still do what you do do what you like, it's fine. Maddie: over already. Sad. Trevor Holland: So w one thing that you you mentioned quite a lot in in your Instagram and you talk about HyROX and I mentioned it just I mentioned it to you just before we started recording 'cause I'd never heard of it and I'm not re I don't really move in those circles so I don't suppose I would. But w but briefly, what what is it? Maddie: Hirox does combine running and strength. it's cast as a fitness race. There's lots of different ones, but Hirox is probably the one that's the biggest. So you run a kilometer and then you have what's called a station. So that would be a different test of strength or cardio. So you use things like the row machine or ski. There's things like sled push where you have to like push weight down a lane. sounds- Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: when you- I talked to my sister about this, sometimes when you talk about it out loud it sounds like the most ridiculous thing because essentially you just run around in circles, go inside the circle, do some strength thing and then just go back out and run in circles again so it sounds ridiculous and it is a bit ridiculous I think. But I love it, I just fell in love with it. those dig classes at the gym I joined and I just yeah just found that I've just loved it so much and so I've kind of gone down this strange hybrid athlete route but it gets quite a bad rep high rocks I think there's a lot of beef between high rocks and CrossFit CrossFit people always taking the mickey Trevor Holland: Really? Maddie: out of high rocks yeah just like I think People just say it's not like a real sport or people get bored of it soon because it's essentially every time you race you do the exact same thing. But like there's many sports that are like that, you know. yeah. And then recently, Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: so Hirox has got into lots of press recently because one of the elite athletes basically shit herself on the course while she was racing and didn't leave the course and carried on racing. And there's like thousands of other people racing. on the same course. I don't know if you saw anything about that, was kind of all over social media. Trevor Holland: My w it was my wife who told me about it. She w Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: she she said, you never g I saw this thing, it was mad. This th this woman shot herself and then they didn't stop the Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: they didn't stop the event. It what do you think about that? You think they should have stopped it? Maddie: What do I think about that? I think as an athlete you should stop yourself because it's just unhygienic and I definitely think, you know, this is a young athlete with a lot on the line and I think when you're in the middle of high rocks it's extremely difficult to make any form of decision because it's such an intense race and these elite athletes are racing at such an intensity. But I think an athlete like that has a team around them and yeah, someone from their team should have stopped her or somebody from High Rock should have called it. But the thing I picked up on on my socials was that I've been trying to get them to change rules essentially to make it more inclusive when you're a divergent athlete. And it's apparently... really difficult to make changes to the rule book. You have to wait for when it's a year and then they look at the rule book once again. But after this happened in High Rocks, they immediately wrote a new rule and were able to put this into the rule book like immediately that you essentially Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: can't defecate on the course, which I mean, I wouldn't think you needed a written rule about that. But they've, yeah, ultimately just changed this rule really quickly and I think, well, why can't they do the same for things that are related to accessibility? Because I would say that's just as important for people's welfare and people's safety as it is to ensure that people aren't defecating on a course, you know? They're not the same, but they kind of are the same, like... Trevor Holland: Well, yeah, kinda. I suppose one more obviously affects everybody and and the other affects maybe a handful of people in a more quiet Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: way, and one that can fly under the radar more easily and one that it probably becomes for them, I can't put words in their mouth, but one that becomes a much lower priority for them to sort out. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: because it because it's, you know, a c a couple a couple a couple of people who you know who who might find things difficult rather than how p publicly Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and and And high impact it is to have shit on the course. I'm not saying that that's the right way of looking at it, but I can see that that's Maddie: No. Trevor Holland: possibly what they were thinking. Now, what one of the things with with and I don't want to speak ill of anybody obviously, but you've it's been a bit of a bone of contention the ability to to wear noise cancelling headphones doing events like that. So why why Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: is that a problem, do you think? Maddie: So, England Athletics... don't allow noise cancelling headphones in a lot of sporting events because of safety reasons. So they say that you can't, because you can't hear properly, then that can make it unsafe for you to be on the course because you won't be able to hear marshals if they're giving safety instructions or things like this. Now, ropes aren't governed by England athletics, but I think they try and follow similar guidelines. Previously I haven't been able to wear them, I've been told I've not been able to wear them whatsoever. Going forwards, I've now been told that I can wear them, but if I wear noise cancelling headphones then essentially I have to compete out of competition. So this isn't actually a massive problem for me currently because I'm not at the level where I would get a podium in my solo race at all. But just hypothetically if I was or if there was another athlete out there who could podium, if they wanted to wear noise cancelling headphones and say they won their age group, they actually wouldn't be able to win the podium because they'd be competing out of competition, which feels extremely unfair. And I always Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: try and say, think, that when I wear noise-cancelling headphones or ear defenders, I feel like my hearing is probably that of a neurotypical. It doesn't take my hearing away, it just reduces the input. So I'm not, it's not that Trevor Holland: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Maddie: I'm not able to hear, I can hear other people and I can hear instructions, so I don't think that it is necessarily unsafe for me to, or anyone to wear. these noise cancelling headphones or ear defenders. It's making the race safer for me as an individual because I'm not going to be experiencing sensory overload. And recently I discovered that high rocks now allow it for their young stars, which are like the young, the kids and the teens who can compete. So they're allowed to wear them for medical reasons, but it's just for some reason not in the adult rule book yet. That fools me. Trevor Holland: I I mean I'd I'd go one step further than than saying that you can hear like a neurotypical person. I I I would feel i in in a way you can hear you can you can hear better than you can otherwise because Maddie: Hmm. Trevor Holland: you're able to to filter what you're hearing a lot more easy you can process what you're hearing much more easily. So you can yeah, you can hear everything that you need to hear, but it's just being subdued to the sense where you're not just being stabbed in the stabbed in the eardrums all the time. It's it's Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it's it's better. the the fact the fact that you're allowed to do it but you have to be out of competition to do it, that completely blows the safety argument out of the water, as does having it where where youngsters are allowed to do it for medical reasons. So that completely negates the safety argument immediately. So it's obviously Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: not a safety issue if there are circumstances where you can do it. What's the justification for being out of competition if you do it? Maddie: Yeah, so I guess this is another part of it, so I'm glad you asked because then what they're saying is that if you're wearing something that's making the competition easier for you, then you're not competing fairly against the other competitors. Do you know, this is really refreshing to Trevor Holland: God. Maddie: see your response because this is like stuff that I've been holding for ages and it's quite difficult as an athlete when I don't know many neurodivergent athletes or dhd athletes or autistic athletes or just ADHD you know who do who compete in high rocks and and experience this difficulty that I experience with high rocks and sometimes I feel like I'm just making a fuss about nothing but yeah essentially it's that like that I'm being put at an advantage against other athletes so then my other argument but then my other argument is that Trevor Holland: fucking else. Maddie: Yeah, I know. My other argument is that, so if you're saying that by me accommodating my needs puts me in a different category than other standard athletes, then you need to create a category for neurodivergent people so that we can all wear noise-cancelling headphones or we can have accommodations that meet our needs and we compete against athletes like ourselves because they have adaptive categories, right? And these... These are for people with physical disabilities and even those that need a lot of work because it's hard to categorise. It's just hard to put people into boxes, right? Always. Trevor Holland: Mm, mm. Maddie: But I just think, you know, either you let me accommodate my needs and I can compete in the standard against everyone else or you need to create a category for the people who currently don't fit anywhere. You can't just, you know, make someone feel like they don't belong in a sport. because their needs are a bit different to other people's. Trevor Holland: Imagine how criminal it is to to make someone who is disadvantaged feel like they have an advantage all of a sudden, how fucking horrible that would be. But also, again, they're creating a paradox here because if you you, the royal you, are wearing noise cancelling headphones in order to make the situation tolerable for you, if that's giving you an unfair advantage, then the opposite is giving everyone else an unfair advantage. So make your mind up about it. W Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: is it an unfair advantage or not? Because if it's an unfair advantage to wear noise cancelling headphones, then it's an unfair advantage to not have to wear them. So fuck off. Maddie: Yeah, basically. I know, I feel like saying this all... Do you know, it's so hard, isn't it? I think, just advocating. It's just this relentless and constant thing to try and have to explain yourself and trying to get people to see from your perspective something that they just cannot seem to see because they don't live it, you know? And it's so hard. Trevor Holland: Exactly that. Exactly. You've you know, you hit the nail on the Maddie: But yeah. Trevor Holland: head, and I've mentioned it in the past about the one of the many problems with invisible disabilities is that they're fucking invisible. that's the biggest problem with it. and Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it's so difficult and in actual fact probably impossible to completely understand it unless you've lived it. And i I Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: think it'd be foolish to think otherwise because It's it's an abstract concept to people. But also you you you you you tapped into something excuse me, you tapped into something a second ago when you said that my reaction made you feel validated because sometimes you feel like you're just my voice, apologies. Maddie: You're right. Trevor Holland: Because sometimes you just feel like you're making a fuss. And that's almost how it's it's designed, right? Maddie: Hmm. Trevor Holland: We it's d the world is designed to make us feel as though we are making a fuss, because then we won't make a fuss. It will go away quietly Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: into the night. And I'm having to really try to undo a lot of that thinking in my own life. So it's if I try to stand up and and make some noise about something that is unfair, how passionate are you about it where you can see past? how much you feel like you're making a fuss. and to just see the injustice. Because that's a problem with autism, right? Is that the we've got that injustice switch. We see Maddie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Trevor Holland: something that's not fair and we will say it. But then Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: we're s we're shut down and they're like, it's just shut up you're making a fuss. Everyone else can handle this. Why can't you? Because I am not everyone else. Yeah. It's it's Maddie: Yeah... Yeah... Trevor Holland: it they th people would love it if we just shut up about it. Maddie: Yeah, it's true. But, I mean, I'm not going too sadly. I think it is that injustice thing, isn't it? And I think for me, because I've found something that I love so much, and it really upsets me to not feel like I fully belong in something that I love because I've been made to feel like that so much of my life. And I just think, how dare you try and take the thing that I love so much away from me? And I just, it's almost, I think there's this comparison when you think about invisible disabilities and say physical disabilities. You wouldn't in a high rocks take someone's wheelchair or crutches away when they use them to race. So why would you expect a neurodivergent person to race without? accommodations. You know, it's that why are these things so different? I don't know. But it's I find it a massive driving factor. Like, every time I'm training and it gets hard, I think no, I want to become a good a really good athlete. Because I think with that will come recognition. And I want to race with defenders even if I am out of competition. because if I can get pictures out there and videos out there of me doing it and representing neurodivergent athletes then hopefully get some noise around it maybe that's when it will make a difference. If I got good enough to have won a podium but not have been able to win a podium that becomes more of an issue currently it's not really but yeah so it drives me it definitely drives me Trevor Holland: And that's good that it does, because it it it's so horribly disappointing to to hear. And look, because I play devil's advocate and I I'm a diplomat I'm always trying to keep the peace. I'm always trying to see both sides of the story. you know, combating that misconception that autistic people aren't comp aren't aren't capable of empathy. That's absolute horseshit because if anything, it's the opposite. I I Maddie: It's massively. Trevor Holland: I I I I it's it's I I I'm s I'm so empathetic that I can I can see the argument that the person who's hurting me has a reason to be doing it. You know what I mean? You can all I can almost justify it. And I'd be like, well Maddie: Yep. Yeah. Trevor Holland: to be fair, you know, so so Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: so I I can see I don't agree with it, but I can see, like I said, it's an abstract concept for people to to be able to understand an invisible disability because it's Maddie: Mmm. Trevor Holland: so easy just to say that person you know, excuse my French, but that person's just being a pussy. That person's just being a wimp. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Because they they they can't you can't handle that. Well you can handle it. It just makes you feel a bit sad when you do. it just Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: makes you feel like you need to sit down in a quiet room, but you can still do you can do you can do things that everyone else can do. So shut up making a fuss about it. There's nothing you can't do. But someone in a wheelchair Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: can't walk necessarily. But you can do all of this stuff. It's just hard. Maddie: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: Well, life is hard, get over it. You know, that that is everyone's a bit autistic. Fuck off. You know, it's that it's Maddie: Yeah. Well, we're not. No, we're not. No, we're not. But, well, Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah. Maddie: I think it's that thing, you know, I've mostly posted similar all the time on Instagram of, like, you see me do the thing, but you don't actually see what it costs me. Yes, I can do Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: the thing, but you have no idea, like, what happened afterwards, you know, that I just did my half marathon and... I spent two days after unable to speak and not even to myself or my cat, you know, and I'm often talking out loud to myself. And then just sat in the dark with the blinds closed because even like natural daylight was too much to cope with because being in that environment on that day was just so overwhelming and it takes so much time to recover from an event. The hyrox especially Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Maddie: is really loud and really busy and really hectic and even like the race itself, like what that takes out of your nervous system because of all the strength that you're using, because of the running. So it's kind of a double-edged sword I guess of like the actual event completely rinsing your nervous system and then also the sensory overload of it. Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: But think Highworks isn't, I think the only place where accessibility kind of needs to be looked at because for Torbay for the half marathon, I asked if I could wear noise cancelling headphones or ear defenders as well. And they are governed by England Athletics because they're a running race. And they said, again, for safety reasons, no, you can't. wear them. So I got back to them and said well if I had someone run with me, a guide runner, who can be my ears essentially, will I then be able to wear ear defenders? And they said I could have a guide runner but the guide runner would have to buy their own ticket and I still wouldn't be allowed to wear ear defenders. Trevor Holland: fake. But didn't you say that you saw other people with headphones on when you were there? Maddie: Yeah, so this was a really hard moment for me actually. So I was at the start line of the race and it was really delayed. They were 12 minutes late starting and I don't know if you've ever been in a race or you've seen starts of races. Everyone's just in this funnel and everyone is just like everywhere. So Trevor Holland: Mm, mm-hmm. Maddie: I got in there because you have to to start the race and I was really a bit overloaded and then someone just joined, right next to me wearing headphones and I just thought this makes no sense whatsoever and there were like a couple of people on the course as I was running that I saw who were wearing headphones and like whether they were neurodivergent and using it for those purposes, whether they were just you know a regular person who just wasn't listening to the rules but... I like following the rules so if someone tells me that I can't do something I'm not going to try and get away with it. It was a really difficult thing I think to see on the start line when I was already feeling very overwhelmed and then all of a sudden again that sense of justice kicks in and was like my god I'm not even going to do this race I wanted to leave. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: I'm glad I didn't but I just think... Again, that communication, needs to be clear and consistent. And even that in itself is helpful for like my autistic brain. If someone tells me something is a certain way, I expect things to be a certain way. And also, you know, if Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: the issue is around safety and not being able to hear, then how can you mitigate that? And I would think having a guide runner. Because what are you going to do if someone is deaf or hard of hearing? Surely they can race with a guide runner who acts as their Trevor Holland: Exactly. That's a Maddie: ears. Otherwise you're just not making the sport accessible, Trevor Holland: I was about to ask that question, yeah. Maddie: are you? So it's just, yeah, it feels like a weird minefield of accessibility that I've kind of ventured into. Trevor Holland: Yeah, I don't know whether this is the case, but I suspect and maybe this 'cause I'm being cynical about it, but I suspect that if if you were to to go up to the organisers and say, I wanna wear headphones 'cause I like listening to music while I'm running they may be more likely to say yes than I wanna wear it it wanna wear noise n wear noise cancelling headphones because I'm neurodiverse. I feel like That's like, fuck off. But you just prefer listeners' music. Yeah, that's fine. Put put your put your beats on it, Maddie: I it. Trevor Holland: it's not a problem. I almost feel like that I'm not I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but I kind of feel like that might be god, that's disgusting. Maddie: Maybe I should test the theory on my next race. Trevor Holland: Yeah, just say, I just I just like listening to music, man. It's just nice. Yeah. Maddie: But that's why they say so I got some specifically for this race like bone conductor headphones So they say you can wear Trevor Holland: Right. Maddie: those because they don't go in your ear Do you know the ones I mean So you can wear those to listen to music Trevor Holland: I do, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maddie: Yeah But I don't know I feel like I want to reach out to England Athletics and I probably need to go through some of their I don't know what their like war books are what they're called or anything, their guidelines for sport and actually have a read through and see if there's anything in there and do a bit of research first. Trevor Holland: So in in this role of ad of advocate that you're that Maddie: you Trevor Holland: you're in now, is your intention to try to to change these things? So do you think you're are you gonna contact the organizers, for example, and and make an argument? Maddie: Yeah, is, I think, it's partly why I've started my Run Different project Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: because up until I did Tall Bay Half Marathon I'd only really done High Rocks and Keltex, which is another fitness race. And actually in Keltex they allowed me to wear my ear defenders, which made a massive difference to my race experience. And I thought, gosh, this is really interesting actually how different my experience was at these two different events. that's why I want to do, you know, I've set myself this possibly too much of a challenge to do 12 events in 12 months, just to do Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: a bit of like field research really and see what is actually happening and what is being offered because... Some races are doing great stuff, like they have sensory tents and quiet spaces available. So it is possible and there are people are starting to think more about neurodivergent athletes and you know even people who have mental health conditions and get really anxious and could just benefit from having that quiet space to access. Athletes like that are being thought about a lot more. But yeah, I like to go to these events and then I'm doing a review and sending it to the event organizers and you know, I think if they want to work together to make improvements, that's great. But yeah, I mean, I feel like there's only so much I can do. I can only highlight things. But I think the more events I go to, Trevor Holland: absolutely. Yeah. Maddie: the more I can see what is working well actually is a place to doing something that's really good that then can become recommendations across the board for other events. Trevor Holland: Mm. Mm. Maddie: But yeah. Trevor Holland: So am I right in saying then that when when was the tour bay half? Was it the other day? Maddie: It was Sunday, when just gone, like 10 days ago now, yeah, 9 days ago. Trevor Holland: And so am I right in saying that you're going to or you have already, writ written a review and putting it putting it on your sub stack? Have you done that yet or is that something you're gonna be doing? Maddie: No, I'm working on that because I haven't even started a sub stack yet but I thought I was doing, excuse me, the post on Instagram and I thought, can't get all of the information into a caption. So I thought actually I should probably expand this. And then I think it would be quite cool by the end of the year, you know, I'll have 12 full reviews Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: and yeah, I will create the sub stack and I don't know, maybe that can all go to England Athletics and just say look, this is my experience. There's a few other neurodivergent athletes I've met through Instagram, which is really nice, who all say actually they experience the same thing. Some people really want to take part in these events and currently won't because the environment is so overwhelming and the support Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: and the accommodations just aren't there. And for me, really like, I've got goosebumps even just saying that out loud because that really gets to me that. actually these people want to take part in something and there are barriers that are not being thought about to support them in in taking part in things that they they enjoy and want to you know like that's just not doesn't seem okay to me whatsoever Trevor Holland: I think I think it's a brilliant thing that you're doing. I really applaud it because you're gonna be highlighting things that need to be highlighted and hopefully making some noise in the right directions to make people give it give it at the very least give people pause for thought. you know, and that's what needs to happen. We n we need people who are prepared to stand up above the precipice and and and and make the noises and say, Hang on, this Maddie: you Trevor Holland: what what's happening here is is is incorrect and this is why. This is my experience. Look at look at look at this and then other people join because they feel empowered to do so. because they're hearing they're hearing someone someone who's who's not afraid to speak up and then suddenly you know you got people who are saying the same thing and it can that's that's Maddie: Mm-hmm Trevor Holland: how the that's how change happens, right? And so the Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: fact that the fact that you're doing this it's it's brilliant. I'm so so so proud of you for it, saying I'm proud of you and I barely know you but I am. no it's it's great. Maddie: thank you so much. No, it's nice to hear, you know? Because it is hard and it is terrifying. Like, I'll be honest, I think, gosh, this having a platform on socials, even that is scary, do know, when you're stuff out there and I'm kind of like, my gosh, but I do think someone needs to talk about it and I think people have been, but it just hasn't kind of... become more of a more of a thing. And yeah, my friend just said to me once like, why not, why not you? Why can't it be you? Someone has to be the spark to change. you know, why Trevor Holland: One hundred. Maddie: not you? And I think I spent so much of my life in silence, not fighting for my needs and not speaking up. And I think I've had a lot of hardship through the world not being inclusive for people who are neurodivergent. if I can make just a little bit of change for future generations, like that would be a pretty cool thing to be able to do, it? Trevor Holland: It's great. It's great. And it's it's such a privilege for me to be here for the the genesis of of what I'm sure is gonna be a really a really big thing that you're doing. So I'm I'm I'm really glad. it's get a child. Maddie: Yeah, I just think all you can do is try, isn't it? We can just try. Trevor Holland: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And you know, who knows what the outcome's gonna be, but the fact is you're prepared to try, which is the biggest biggest challenge. And I think in a in a world we're in at the moment where on one hand our voices are being heard more than ever, but on the other hand, there there is a a seeming campaign that's building momentum on the by the day, against neurodiversity being being being, you know as big a deal as it is, and is it being missed, is it being overdiagnosed? Is ADHD real? We just keep seeing things over and over again. We're being hammered over the head, mainly by the Daily Mail, Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: about shit like this all the time. And it's gathering momentum by the day. So the cynicism around it is increasing. So our the noises we make around it need to get louder with it. so hats off. I haven't got a hat. If I had one I'd take it off. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: no, that's that's that's that's really so was so you've done the tour bay half, that was the first of the twelve, was it? Maddie: first of the twelve, yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: So that was September. What's the w what's what's coming up in October? Maddie: October, so I'm doing Caltech's race again but I'll actually be able to do it as part of this project this time and do an actual review so that should be a good one, that's in October. And then November and December I've got two different high rocks races because I think high rocks at different venues can be very different as well in terms of how overwhelming Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: it is so... I think partly I want to kind demystify what some of those venues are like and what the experience is like when you get there. So hopefully, you know, those people who are out there feeling a bit scared or sitting on the fence about whether or not they want to do it, can maybe help them be like, okay, if that's what it's like, I feel like I could maybe give that a go or I could do it at that venue, but not this venue. And yeah, that's all I've got so far. Trevor Holland: Right. Yeah, yeah. Maddie: need to plan my 2027 calendar. I'm trying to be smart about it so I don't also get injured because it's quite a lot of events to be doing in a short period of time. yeah, it's quite exciting as well. Trevor Holland: Yeah, it's I'm I'm really looking forward to seeing your progress over the over the coming months. And I'll keep I'll keep my eye out for when for when you get the Substack set up because I'd be really interested in reading your no pressure, but I'd be really interested in reading Maddie: Yes. Trevor Holland: your your reviews of of these events. Because it's it's yeah, it's great what you're doing, as I said. so yeah, thank you for that. Really good. now It'd be remiss of me to to go any further without ask asking the the important two questions that I ask all of my guests, well, s in the last few weeks at least, since I decided I needed I needed a bit of a bit of format. Maddie: You Trevor Holland: so if you could, as a neurodiverse person, live in a fictional universe from movies or TV, is there one that you would live in and if so, why? Maddie: Why? This is so hard. I was trying Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: to think about this last night actually. If I had to choose, it would probably be... In Lord of the Rings because they're like my favourite Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: books. Yeah. Anything fantasy where there's a bit of magic. I just think that would be interesting. It would also be terrifying, but I kind of live for that, you know? You might die tomorrow. That's okay. Trevor Holland: You're the sa you're the second person who's who's chosen the who's who's chosen that universe actually. Kevin Helton said the same thing. So yeah. K Kevin Helton who I had on a few weeks Maddie: really? Who chose that? Who haven't? Ahhhh I'm sorry I can't be more original Trevor Holland: ago said he would he'd he No, no, no, no, no, no. It's okay to have more than one person answering answering the same Maddie: Hahaha Trevor Holland: question. But so what is it about that universe apart from the the magic is it is it because it's magical and it's exciting? Maddie: think it's just Trevor Holland: Is that why? Maddie: like so far from neurotypical isn't it? It's just like anything Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: goes. It is the magic and I don't know why, like I've always anything fantasy you know like when I was young I used to love, this is where else I was thinking that I might say like do you know the Enoblighted series of the faraway tree and then at like the top of the tree you go to magical Trevor Holland: Absolutely. Maddie: land? Like that would be cool also wouldn't it? anywhere that's Trevor Holland: Yeah. Maddie: just not like reality and it could never exist in our current world. Like, I'm here for that. Trevor Holland: Yeah, I think what what I'm hearing is is you know, not just from you but from others as well, is that we we'd wanna live in a in a world of infinite possibilities, Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: where where where magic and and whimsy live and and eccentricity is somewhat embraced and Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I think people like us maybe feel a bit more at home in that kind of environment. Absolutely. Yeah, Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: that's a great answer. and the the the crucial second question is if you had the opportunity to turn off your neurodiversity, so click your fingers and then suddenly you no longer have complex PTSD and autism and ADHD. would you? Maddie: Aww, it's hard isn't it? I don't know the answer to this question. I have thought about this one quite Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: a lot. And it is actually something I think about quite frequently because I do get moments where, you know, I'm having a meltdown and every time I during a meltdown is I wish I was normal and like what is normal, I know lots of people say, but I guess what I'm wishing in that moment is that I was neurotypical and I do have fleeting moments of that, I think. But I do think overall Trevor Holland: Mm. Maddie: I wouldn't. I don't think I would. I think the longer I go down the journey of self-discovery, sort post-diagnosis, which is probably about five years ago now for me. And the more years that go by, the more accepting I get of who I am. And I think I then love myself more, hate myself less, and more of my frustration goes towards the world. And the world not being the thing that is supporting me to thrive and be possibly as happy as I could be. So I'd want to change the world and not myself, I guess. Trevor Holland: that's a beautiful answer, Maddy. The w the w no, honestly, the the the way you just Maddie: you Trevor Holland: put it. Because that sums up the experience for someone who who is new newly diagnosed, right? especially late diagnosed, is is it's a switch in in your in your thinking from turning turning your your judgment and your frustrations in on yourself and and and beating yourself up and wondering why you feel the way you do and and and lessening lesser lessening yourself, reducing yourself to something that's that's just lesser. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: to then turning that around and actually saying, I am not a problem. The environment is. And then you turn that frustration outwards and then you stop punishing yourself and you start Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: instead trying to be a vessel for for positive change in the world. That's the answer, Maddie. It's bloody excellent. Maddie: Yeah, that's very emotional actually, like thinking just because it is that that moment before I was even diagnosed I sat in a psychiatrist office and they just did the like initial screening and I didn't even know what the questions were that Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Maddie: she was asking about like I'm just you know like these weird questionnaires that you have to do and I was like yeah sometimes I feel like that yeah sometimes And then when she said what they were and she was like, I think you might be autistic and have ADHD and like, it's like everything around me just like crashed down and everything just made sense. And even like in that moment before diagnosis, I just had this relief of like, that's why everything has felt so hard and it wasn't me. It was never me. Like, and that feeling of relief, like it's so hard to explain. Just like you say, that self-hate and that want to punish yourself because you feel like you're always doing something wrong and getting something wrong. It's just sort of like relieved. I don't think it takes a while for it to sort of dissipate because it's just so learned and ingrained that, right, well for me it was like I'm a problem. I'm a problem. I don't deserve to be in this world. What is the point of me being here? I never get it right. You know, all of these... negative beliefs you hold about yourself takes a while to fully sort of melt away but yeah, huge. Trevor Holland: Yeah. And I'm not sure if you ever I'm not sure if you ever can fully turn that turn those feelings off because as you said it just becomes so ingrained in your in your consciousness and your decision making Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and your thinking. Your whole life has been has has been one of self punishment and and self judgment. And judgment from others as well. To then suddenly Maddie: Yeah Trevor Holland: be told, actually, you know what? This isn't your fault. It never was and that's gr that's an amazing thing to be told and i i it it can it can lighten the load to an extent but but then it becomes a case of trying to rebuild and and unpick and unstitch all of that previous thinking and Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: trying to change that and live your life in a different way going forward is so difficult to do because it's not because that that's the thing, isn't it? Th the diagnosis is not a magic wand. It it's it's the it's the first step in a long journey that then follows it. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And I'm I'm still I mean, you're five years in and I would argue that five years is still quite early in the journey and I'm only I'm only a few months in myself. it's Maddie: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: but but it's to but to be I I don't know about you but but having that person diagnose me, it really did just feel like and I've said this before, but it really did feel like he was just tapping me on the shoulder, putting and and just saying Trev, your life has been hard and it's not your fault. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: That he didn't say any of that, but that's exactly what that moment felt like. It's like Maddie: Yeah Trevor Holland: I under I understand. And for the first time in your life, someone is saying, I get it. You have have been this way your whole life and it's not fair and you're not the problem. And you're Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: like, shit, what what do I do now? Maddie: It's weird isn't it? Because it alters your entire perception of reality or your understanding of your whole life up until that point is just completely altered by these very few words coming from a doctor's mouth. I remember like probably still got it somewhere in the notebook like it just says like maybe that's why and like maybe that's why I was like this is a child maybe that's why I never understood this X, Y, Z, it's just pages and pages of maybe that's why this, maybe that's why that, because everything just suddenly made sense but also didn't make sense anymore because like, just this, again, like this whole perception of reality is completely altered. And yeah, is a journey and even now, like, five years is really, like, it's not that much time and... I still get sometimes, you know, if I share or I think like being more public with it online, that has been quite helpful for me in some ways of kind of accepting my own neurodivergence. But then it also comes with a like, people believe me? Do they think I'm faking? And like you say, especially with so much in the press at the moment, I just think, gosh, I just delete my account and shut up because that would be easier, right? That would just be you not. than open to attack or doubt from other people. Bye. Trevor Holland: But that's that's what they want us to do. Maddie: Yeah. Trevor Holland: They want they want us to shut up and that's why we can't. Maddie: It's true. And I won't. Aww, thank Trevor Holland: Good. It's good. Don't because we we need people like you. Maddie: you. Trevor Holland: You're welcome. Maddy, it's been such a an honor and a pleasure to speak to you this morning and learn so much about what it is that drives you and it's so impressive to to hear what you're doing. I'm so excited to see your progress with the with the next eleven events that you're gonna be doing. I can't wait to see your progress. I wish you the best of luck. And yeah, I'll be I'll be I'll be looking with interest. so take great care, keep in touch and thanks so much for coming to see me today. Maddie: Yes, thank you so much. It's been awesome. Thank you so much for your time and keep doing what you're doing because I love this podcast. Trevor Holland: Thanks. Thanks, Maddie. I appreciate it. Take care. Maddie: Take care, bye! Trevor Holland: Thanks again, Maddie. I hope you guys enjoyed the episode as much as I did. What a cracking guess Maddie was. And once again, hats off for everything you're trying to achieve there for other neurodiverse athletes, and best of luck to you on that. Now, guys, if you want to keep in touch with me and see what I've been up to, then please do go to shoutybrain.com where you'll see links to all my various goings on. I'd like to draw your special attention to shoutybrain.com/slash shop. I've got a new online store which is powered by Fourth Wall where I've got lots of different bits and pieces on sale and the reason I'm doing merch, you might be thinking, What the fuck, Trev? Come on, get over yourself. You're a brand new podcast. You you're not in a position to sell merch. And you'll probably be right, but it's not just about selling merch. What I'm trying to do here is give people with this podcast, I'm trying to give people an outlet to to communicate and share a safe space where they can be the authentic selves, they're auth authentic neurodiverse selves, with in a judgment free zone. And I want to extend that to out in the wild with the various clothing that you wear or the various various accessories that you carry around with you. So I'm putting together a catalogue of various different designs of my own doing on t-shirts and mugs and various other bits and bobs that are kind of empowering statements of neurodiversity. At the moment it's it's in its infancy. So I've got some shouty brain logo stuff, I've got some minty five hundred stuff on there, but I'm adding to it all the time. And I'm gonna be adding slogans and various phrases and things like that that kind of represent what it is to be neurodiverse. In a kind of fun, cheeky, tongue-in-cheek way, but nevertheless quite important to to kind of put it out there. And I want everybody to wear their neurodiversity with pride. So that's why I'm kind of pointing people towards that shop. So if you want to take a little look at that, everything on there is very affordable. So please do take a look. And if you want to treat yourself or someone that you care about to some lovely bits and pieces, then please do go there to do that. Now next week I'll have another guest or I won't. I'll either be on my own or with someone else. I haven't worked it out yet, because that's just the kind of guy that I am. But in the meantime, I hope you all have a fantastic week. Please do look after yourselves. Please do look after each other. And come on. Be kind for fuck's sake. Love you.