Latest / The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke / 129: Nikko Kennedy - Living in Rhythm: Circadian Health at Every Stage of Life

Transcript

129: Nikko Kennedy - Living in Rhythm: Circadian Health at Every Stage of Life · The Reverse Aging Club with Meredith Oke

• 5:00
  Meredith Oke: Hi, Nico Kennedy. Welcome back to the QVC podcast.
• 5:05
  Nikko Kennedy: Thank you, Meredith. It's great to be here.
• 5:08
  Meredith Oke: It's so nice to have you again. And for those of
• 5:12
  you who are newer, I highly recommend going back
• 5:15
  and finding my other interviews with Nico. But
• 5:19
  because for this one we're going to cover some
• 5:22
  more experiential territory. But before we get
• 5:25
  into that, I do want to just do a little overview
• 5:28
  of your focus area in terms of the research and
• 5:34
  the work that you do and your substack. Brighter
• 5:36
  Days, Darker Nights. Everyone should be
• 5:39
  subscribing. Tell us a little bit about that.
• 5:44
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, sure. I am really interested in, like,
• 5:49
  health from the very beginning of life and
• 5:52
  helping to optimize. And so it's kind of like a,
• 5:56
  all of this circadian and quantum health, the,
• 5:59
  the newborn period and to, you know, my
• 6:02
  background is as a doula and so supporting mother
• 6:07
  baby bonding, supporting the childbirth
• 6:08
  experience, supporting postpartum experiences,
• 6:12
  understanding infant development. I, when I got
• 6:16
  into circadian health, eventually I realized it
• 6:19
  was like a big light bulb moment. Whoa. There's a
• 6:21
  lot going on here. Our circadian rhythms are
• 6:25
  first programmed in early life and that can kind
• 6:29
  of carry through for the rest of life. And then
• 6:32
  it has expanded out because I'm very curious. And
• 6:34
  so where I was really focused just on mamas and
• 6:38
  babies, I've also learned like at puberty, at
• 6:41
  menopause, in old age, there are also just stages
• 6:44
  of life where our circadian health is very
• 6:46
  different based on what our biology is like
• 6:48
  trying to optimize for in those phases of life.
• 6:50
  So I kind of am like, developmental circadian
• 6:53
  biology.
• 6:54
  Meredith Oke: We're gonna have to talk about that.
• 6:57
  Nikko Kennedy: Absolutely. It's super cute because you always
• 7:00
  hear like, oh, babies are just like little
• 7:02
  grandma and Grandp when they're born with their
• 7:04
  wrinkly little faces. And turns out, like,
• 7:06
  grandma and grandpa don't really produce much
• 7:08
  pineal melatonin. Little babies also don't
• 7:11
  produce much pineal melatonin. And so in some
• 7:14
  ways their circadian needs are very similar in
• 7:16
  terms of really being attuned to light and social
• 7:19
  cues. Unless the darkness and need for darkness
• 7:23
  isn't as great in those stages because for the
• 7:26
  old people, their pineal glands are often
• 7:27
  calcified, so they're not going to produce pineal
• 7:30
  melatonin. It is still important. There are, you
• 7:33
  know, like I said, like, we could do a whole
• 7:35
  podcast on that. Today we're getting together to
• 7:37
  more talk about like day to day realities and all
• 7:41
  of that. But yeah, fascinating stuff. And if You.
• 7:44
  For those who are listening that are interested
• 7:46
  and want to jump into that, like, my substack is
• 7:48
  huge. There's. I'm getting close to like 300
• 7:52
  posts in the archive there of just like all of
• 7:55
  this nerdy stuff. I always have tons of citations
• 7:59
  in my work.
• 8:00
  Meredith Oke: Eco stuff for those listening who haven't been,
• 8:02
  is like very, very deeply researched. So if you
• 8:06
  hear her mention anything on here and you're
• 8:08
  like, wait, what? I want to know more. Like,
• 8:10
  there is more. She has definitely written on it.
• 8:15
  So I just want to cover this a little bit. So
• 8:19
  there's the newborn phase, puberty, menopause.
• 8:25
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, Old age.
• 8:27
  Meredith Oke: Our circadian rhythm rhythms change during each
• 8:32
  of those periods. How so?
• 8:34
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, they're different based on what's
• 8:37
  happening with our hormones. So, you know,
• 8:38
  newborn babies, the first six weeks of life, they
• 8:40
  don't really produce much melatonin at all. They
• 8:42
  get it from mom's breast milk. And then they do
• 8:48
  start producing melatonin, producing more and
• 8:49
  more. And melatonin climbs all the way through
• 8:51
  childhood. Puberty happens at the point where
• 8:55
  melatonin starts to fall. And then melatonin
• 8:58
  declines across, across the lifespan, basically.
• 9:03
  And then we see like, menopause tends to hit at a
• 9:06
  particular phase when melatonin reaches a low
• 9:09
  threshold. So you always hear about like, you
• 9:13
  know, the, the female sex hormones is that it's
• 9:15
  when those fizzle out. But actually melatonin is
• 9:18
  also a sex hormone. Um, so you also see melatonin
• 9:23
  falling and really amazing clinical trials with
• 9:26
  melatonin supplementation at that stage, which,
• 9:29
  you know, there's a lot you can do to boost your
• 9:32
  endogenous melatonin as well. So we kind of
• 9:35
  extrapolate from the research back and forth
• 9:36
  because it's, you know, the research field is
• 9:41
  kind of still catching up with the understandings
• 9:44
  that we have in the world of quantum biology
• 9:46
  where we're oftentimes like cross piecing
• 9:50
  interdisciplinary research. So I think we'll see
• 9:52
  a lot more with that going on. And then dementia
• 9:56
  and arsenality hits when melatonin basically
• 10:00
  becomes like negligible. Which is why I say like
• 10:03
  the old folks are again, kind of like the newborn
• 10:05
  babies. So it's like this graph where it like
• 10:08
  goes up and then at puberty is the peak, where it
• 10:11
  then like declines. So this whole full slope. And
• 10:13
  then there are other things that happen with
• 10:15
  cortisol and sex hormones and all of that kind of
• 10:17
  thing. Women, women have like a monthly ride that
• 10:21
  they go on where sleep is often more disturbed in
• 10:24
  the Luteal phase. So yeah, there's all kinds of
• 10:27
  things with circadian health. But the really, you
• 10:32
  know, cool thing about all of the complexity is
• 10:35
  it always boils down to like, the prescription is
• 10:37
  always the same, which is to retune your
• 10:39
  environment back to nature. Nature is the gold
• 10:41
  standard. Nature takes care of everyone's
• 10:45
  circadian health at the same time. So that's,
• 10:48
  that's where it's, you know, nice and holistic.
• 10:50
  And all of this is fascinating and can help
• 10:52
  understand like, oh, why does grandpa always wake
• 10:55
  up at 4 in the morning? Like why is my baby also
• 10:58
  always up at 4 in the morning? And those kinds of
• 11:02
  things. So it can explain differences in
• 11:05
  behavior, but the prescription is always like the
• 11:07
  environment and needs to support strong and
• 11:10
  stable circadian rhythms.
• 11:13
  Meredith Oke: Okay, so, because that was my next question. So
• 11:15
  it's like the practical application is the same.
• 11:20
  It's just supporting us at different stages.
• 11:23
  Nikko Kennedy: Right.
• 11:24
  Meredith Oke: We really need our adolescent children to be away
• 11:29
  from that blue light or blocking that blue light
• 11:31
  at night because this is the time in their life
• 11:33
  where they're supposed to, supposed to be
• 11:35
  producing it. Melatonin in abundance.
• 11:37
  Nikko Kennedy: Yes, absolutely. Yep. It's really important.
• 11:40
  Melatonin is a hormone. Melatonin is an
• 11:43
  antioxidant. Like melatonin does so many things
• 11:45
  for the body's health. So yeah, absolutely. We
• 11:48
  really want those puberty years and childhood
• 11:53
  years. Yeah, ideally. And you know, really all
• 11:56
  the times, and that's what's so nice, is that
• 11:58
  it's never too late to start. Except for in the
• 12:01
  sense of behaviorally, it's much easier. I work
• 12:05
  with families in my one to one work or
• 12:09
  practitioners who are supporting families are
• 12:11
  like the main people that I work with. And so
• 12:14
  moms always report like, I wish I would have had
• 12:16
  this sooner. Because it's a lot harder to onboard
• 12:19
  a teenager to circadian lifestyle choices
• 12:22
  compared with the moms who get this earlier on.
• 12:25
  It is easier to raise someone up within it and
• 12:30
  then they can. Like my children for example. Like
• 12:35
  I was blessed to start playing around with this
• 12:39
  when I was pregnant with my first child almost 13
• 12:42
  years ago. So she's now approaching the teen
• 12:45
  years and she can look out and be like, wow, the
• 12:48
  kids you have video games. I feel sorry for them.
• 12:54
  And you know, so there are things where in some
• 12:59
  ways like people get more and more set in their
• 13:01
  habits. So like the, the coaching aspect of it is
• 13:05
  more difficult in later stages if you haven't
• 13:08
  like started it early on. But our circadian
• 13:13
  health is always flexible. Like there's you can
• 13:16
  find so many studies for that dementia, senility
• 13:19
  issue, even for the people who are, like, way at
• 13:23
  the end of life and finding benefit for them
• 13:28
  getting into circadian strengthening practices.
• 13:33
  So, yeah, I love working in this field because
• 13:35
  it's so effective and, you know, we can
• 13:41
  oftentimes, within like, two days, start to
• 13:43
  really feel a difference. I. I talk with. I was
• 13:47
  just talking with a woman recently, too, that has
• 13:51
  children that are teenagers that are. This is
• 13:56
  actually a pretty common story where the parents
• 13:57
  have divorced, and so one home is circadian and
• 14:00
  the other home isn't.
• 14:02
  Meredith Oke: Right.
• 14:03
  Nikko Kennedy: And so then she's like, every time they come
• 14:06
  home, it's a whole reset.
• 14:09
  Meredith Oke: Yeah.
• 14:11
  Nikko Kennedy: And. Or, like, you know, sleepovers or whatever.
• 14:14
  And, like, you know, could I get them to, like,
• 14:16
  bring blue blockers over there? Would that be
• 14:17
  weird? Would.
• 14:20
  Meredith Oke: Yeah, she's like, six months away from being
• 14:22
  like, pack your blue blockers, put them on. I
• 14:24
  don't care.
• 14:25
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, exactly. We. Yeah, we do notice. And so,
• 14:30
  yeah, all of. All of the, you know, you know,
• 14:33
  moms are especially on it. Sometimes it's the
• 14:35
  dads, though. Sometimes it's the dads that are
• 14:37
  totally, like, the circadian health champion. And
• 14:39
  I think that the dads usually take a little bit
• 14:41
  more of a proactive approach with the older
• 14:44
  children, whereas the moms, I think, still
• 14:47
  sometimes are, like, giving older children more
• 14:50
  autonomy at that stage of life. Just kind of like
• 14:53
  a general trend that's obviously not true for all
• 14:55
  families. But in the earlier stages, it's often
• 14:57
  the moms who are, like, you know, very much like,
• 15:00
  packing the bags to go to the park and all that
• 15:02
  kind of thing. So, yeah, teamwork. Teamwork.
• 15:06
  Circadian community.
• 15:09
  Meredith Oke: Yeah. And just. Yeah, just having people with
• 15:12
  even, like, a slight familiarity with it, you
• 15:16
  know, and it's. Things are really changing. Okay,
• 15:18
  so. Okay, so it's. Adolescence is super important
• 15:22
  now when we're talking about menopause and old
• 15:25
  age, when our melatonin decreases. Are you, you
• 15:29
  know, is it your view that there is a place for
• 15:33
  exogenous supplementation during those. Those
• 15:35
  times of life? Or should we do. Or is it more
• 15:38
  like doubling down on in our darkness?
• 15:42
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, that's a great. Yeah, great. Great
• 15:45
  question. And so that's where I teach, I guess,
• 15:52
  six, five or six sources of melatonin that we
• 15:56
  have access to. So for me, I'm always working
• 16:00
  with the endogenous. I am, you know, like, as a
• 16:03
  doula, which is, you know, a form of being a
• 16:07
  health coach. I'm not prescriptive So I always
• 16:10
  recommend people to work with a practitioner if
• 16:15
  they're going to supplement with melatonin,
• 16:17
  because for one, melatonin supplements on the
• 16:19
  market have been proven to be like wildly
• 16:22
  inaccurate in terms of like what the stated dose
• 16:25
  on the bottle is versus what actually it is. And
• 16:29
  also to have a lot of contaminants and things. So
• 16:34
  I'm like, you really should work with a
• 16:36
  practitioner who's familiar with melatonin and is
• 16:39
  confident in their source of melatonin and can
• 16:41
  work with the melatonin in addition to any other
• 16:43
  treatments he may be having. And there are some
• 16:46
  acute situations where we absolutely. I would
• 16:50
  never like a mom with preeclampsia, a mom who's
• 16:54
  having her labor augmented with pitocin, a baby
• 16:58
  who's in the NICU and can't breastfeed. Like
• 17:02
  these are three that I encounter pretty often
• 17:05
  where like in those cases we absolutely. For that
• 17:09
  acute situation, it's probably worth working with
• 17:12
  someone who can get that supplemental melatonin
• 17:15
  for a long term thing like menopause lasts many
• 17:18
  years. In that case, I'm a lot more likely to
• 17:24
  want to lean harder on the body's own ability to
• 17:27
  make melatonin. And so that's several ways. Like
• 17:30
  there is the pineal melatonin you were mentioning
• 17:32
  that comes out in the darkness, but we also have
• 17:35
  the mitochondrial melatonin which comes out any
• 17:38
  time of day, especially when mitochondria are
• 17:40
  really happy and healthy and getting infrared
• 17:43
  light signals. So yeah, I talk with people about
• 17:46
  like optimizing their thermostat is like one of
• 17:50
  the really low hanging fruit to like let your
• 17:53
  days be warmer.
• 17:54
  Meredith Oke: As much time outside as possible, even in the
• 17:56
  shade, even when it's cloudy, because that
• 17:59
  infrared light is getting us. Yeah, the daytime
• 18:03
  kind of melatonin.
• 18:04
  Nikko Kennedy: Exactly.
• 18:05
  Meredith Oke: At night, because then we're getting. Releasing
• 18:07
  the nighttime melatonin.
• 18:09
  Nikko Kennedy: Right.
• 18:09
  Meredith Oke: And then so lowering the temperature, is that
• 18:12
  what you're saying?
• 18:13
  Nikko Kennedy: Lowering the temperature at night and having a
• 18:15
  warmer daytime. So even for people that are
• 18:17
  living inside, it's like your daytime thermostat.
• 18:20
  A lot of people keep it low for energy
• 18:22
  efficiency, but like really like 72 to 76 degrees
• 18:26
  Fahrenheit is where like optimal human
• 18:28
  productivity hits. And most of us are, you know,
• 18:32
  you see people doing red light therapies and all
• 18:34
  kinds of things because we're all kind of heat
• 18:36
  deprived for various reasons. And then the
• 18:39
  nighttime sometimes might require like a air
• 18:43
  conditioner or something, which also is less
• 18:45
  energy efficient. That's one of the areas that we
• 18:49
  bump into a lot when it comes to like building
• 18:51
  design is that we are constantly trying to
• 18:54
  optimize for energy efficiency, for cost savings
• 18:58
  and pollution and all of these things that we're
• 19:00
  concerned about. But creating a static, thermal,
• 19:05
  highly efficient light is kind of like making us
• 19:08
  these weird moon. Think of it as like being like
• 19:11
  moon beings. It's kind of like just being under
• 19:13
  like the full moon and it's like kind of cold and
• 19:16
  kind of white light and kind of everyone's just
• 19:19
  like kind of like weird and not really sure if
• 19:21
  they're like super alert in a way.
• 19:23
  Meredith Oke: I forget his name. He's like going to like live
• 19:27
  forever. He look, he's literally like translucent
• 19:30
  glow. He looks like a moon. Totally a moon guy. I
• 19:35
  see what you mean.
• 19:37
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:39
  Meredith Oke: So, okay, so we want to be away from that. So, so
• 19:43
  it's summer, we have, we have the AC on, but in
• 19:47
  the daytime we want to keep it up around 74 and
• 19:49
  then we go to bed. We want to put it down lower.
• 19:51
  We want to be mindful that there's a fluctuation
• 19:55
  in temperature between the day and the night.
• 19:58
  With the night being warmer, the night being
• 20:00
  cold, the day being warmer. Okay.
• 20:02
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, exactly. So that's just another form of.
• 20:06
  Meredith Oke: Supports our melatonin.
• 20:08
  Nikko Kennedy: Yep. And that's to support our melatonin. Yeah.
• 20:10
  And so we know like, you know, women, one of the
• 20:12
  side effects of menopause can be like the hot
• 20:14
  flashes. And it can, you know, they can be more
• 20:16
  sensitive to those thermal changes. And when it
• 20:20
  comes with like. Yeah, I mean we just have so
• 20:23
  much advice, same thing. You know, like I go, I
• 20:25
  tend to default back because most of my work is
• 20:27
  with mamas and babies. And so, you know, they
• 20:32
  always tell baby like you have to have like a 70
• 20:34
  degree room for your baby to sleep in with no
• 20:36
  blankets and whatever. And meanwhile like for all
• 20:39
  of history we were co sleeping and like the
• 20:40
  temperature regulation would happen on with mom
• 20:44
  and the temperature outside would actually be
• 20:47
  rising and falling. And so the temperature rhythm
• 20:49
  is usually the first to emerge in a newborn baby.
• 20:52
  So at first they're like round the clock. And
• 20:53
  then the first thing that happens is their body
• 20:55
  starts being cooler in the night and warmer in
• 20:57
  the day. And that's just like a really
• 20:59
  fundamental circadian health pattern. And I like
• 21:03
  to bring it up because across all stages of life
• 21:06
  that thermal pattern is just a really important
• 21:11
  piece. And if we are spending time outside, we
• 21:13
  naturally get it. But when we're spending so much
• 21:15
  of our time indoors, we don't always get that.
• 21:18
  So, yeah, you can see, like, I'm out here in my
• 21:21
  gazebo and it's lovely springtime weather. And
• 21:23
  you've also seen me out here bundled up in my,
• 21:27
  you know, sweatshirts and hoodies with a wool
• 21:29
  blanket on my lap. Different crazy things that
• 21:33
  I'm doing to keep myself, like, more enmeshed in
• 21:37
  nature and, you know, have done huge amount of
• 21:40
  work in my life to. From, like, living, you know,
• 21:45
  me, my husband, our one child living in, you
• 21:48
  know, a little apartment in the city. And it's
• 21:52
  great because we can walk to the park and we can
• 21:53
  walk to the grocery and, like, everything is,
• 21:56
  like, you know, really set up and nice and tight
• 21:59
  and convenient. And then eventually, you know,
• 22:03
  like, I was having a lot of immune system
• 22:06
  dysregulation at that time. Really, really bad
• 22:09
  seasonal allergies, really, really bad skin
• 22:12
  reactions, and resetting my circadian rhythms was
• 22:19
  what. Actually, I didn't even notice right away
• 22:22
  because I was doing it kind of like more on a
• 22:24
  whim, but putting, like, the red light filter on
• 22:29
  my computer and different things like that. It
• 22:32
  was like, wow, that was a really mild allergy
• 22:35
  year. That's great. And then the next year rolled
• 22:37
  by, like, wow, another just, like, allergies.
• 22:40
  Like, do I even have them anymore?
• 22:42
  Meredith Oke: Right?
• 22:44
  Nikko Kennedy: And it wasn't. I was like, I wasn't like, I'm
• 22:46
  going to use circadian health to cure my allergic
• 22:48
  contact dermatitis and seasonal allergies. But,
• 22:52
  like, you know, two and three years down the
• 22:53
  road, I look back and like, wow, I haven't had a
• 22:55
  flare since I got my, you know, light
• 22:59
  environment, right? And it took a long time to,
• 23:02
  like, get out here where I'm living now, where
• 23:04
  there's woods, there's space for the kids,
• 23:07
  they're no longer in school, we're homeschooling.
• 23:11
  And I. I've been entirely remote since 2014. And
• 23:18
  so sometimes people are like, oh, you're so
• 23:19
  lucky. I could never. And it's like, well, if you
• 23:22
  would have asked me in 2013, I might have said
• 23:24
  the same thing. But, like, by making. By setting
• 23:28
  my intention and working really, really hard,
• 23:31
  making certain sacrifices, like, over the years,
• 23:34
  like, we gradually improve and get closer and
• 23:36
  closer to our ideal lifestyle where we're raising
• 23:39
  our kids. We have plenty of time to spend with
• 23:42
  them. They have plenty of connection with nature.
• 23:45
  And all of these things that, you know, I just
• 23:49
  know in my being are so important because I felt
• 23:52
  the difference between being sick all the time,
• 23:56
  basically, or, like, you know, A significant
• 23:58
  amount of the year versus, you know, actually
• 24:01
  being able to enjoy springtime blossoms and not
• 24:06
  see that as a time of year of, like, dread of
• 24:09
  like, suffering. Yeah, yeah.
• 24:12
  Meredith Oke: And that's such a good point too, that. Yeah.
• 24:15
  This is like a gradual, lifelong practice.
• 24:20
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 24:20
  Meredith Oke: So there are certain things we could, you know,
• 24:22
  if we're able to implement them right away, like,
• 24:25
  amazing. But then what I find oftentimes is once
• 24:28
  you implement some of the key basic things, you
• 24:33
  start to notice, you know, you make decisions
• 24:37
  that you could be making differently that you
• 24:39
  wouldn't even have thought of before you've done
• 24:40
  the other thing. So just like, allowing it to
• 24:43
  unfold over time.
• 24:45
  Nikko Kennedy: Mm.
• 24:46
  Meredith Oke: And allowing your lifestyle to adjust to the
• 24:50
  practice and the practice to adjust to you. And
• 24:54
  there's no, like, one way to do it. There are
• 24:57
  basic things we all need to do. Artificial light
• 25:01
  at night, getting outside during the day. But how
• 25:06
  we do that is really, you know, can be very
• 25:09
  individualized and can change and improve over
• 25:13
  time.
• 25:14
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, yeah. And is very, very determined by the
• 25:19
  environment you're in. Because, like, when I was,
• 25:21
  you know, living over a busy intersection, it was
• 25:24
  like blackout curtains all the way at night.
• 25:27
  Right. And now I, like, have skylights and I'm
• 25:32
  like, watching the moon and being up in the
• 25:34
  middle of the night. And like this, you know,
• 25:37
  like, alternating, like, somewhat polyphasic
• 25:39
  sleep thing. That was one of the other topics
• 25:41
  that sometimes people don't realize. Like, when
• 25:44
  you get really deep into it, you start uncovering
• 25:47
  all these things about biology that we just
• 25:50
  didn't know about, like being able to enjoy the
• 25:55
  light of the full moon rather than feeling as a
• 25:59
  time of dread. And again, that's something that,
• 26:01
  like, when I had a really, really strict
• 26:03
  schedule, there's no way that I could have felt
• 26:05
  okay about being awake for a couple of hours to
• 26:08
  enjoy the moonlight and, you know, some time with
• 26:10
  my spouse while the kids are all quiet and slee
• 26:12
  sleeping. You know, that would have been really
• 26:15
  stressful. I mean, I remember when it was
• 26:17
  stressful because I knew my alarm was going off
• 26:20
  at 4:45 in the morning or, you know, sometimes
• 26:22
  even earlier. Right. And so, like, when you know
• 26:27
  that your alarm's coming at a particular time and
• 26:29
  you're awake in the middle of the night, like,
• 26:31
  that's so stressful. But when you're totally in
• 26:35
  tune. And again, this is more for, like, I live
• 26:38
  in a temperate climate, so like, my sleep tends
• 26:40
  to shift more. Whereas people who live like,
• 26:44
  closer to the equator, like, the light is a lot
• 26:47
  more Consistent around the year. And so we don't
• 26:49
  have those long dark nights of winter where we're
• 26:52
  going to be awake.
• 26:54
  Meredith Oke: That there's. That it's somewhat normal to have
• 26:58
  periods of wakefulness in the middle of the night
• 27:00
  during certain times of the month.
• 27:05
  Nikko Kennedy: During certain times of the month.
• 27:07
  Meredith Oke: The moon based on.
• 27:08
  Nikko Kennedy: In the season and the seasons. Yeah. So basically
• 27:11
  whenever nighttime darkness passes 14 hours. So I
• 27:16
  get a lot of people who live, you know, like I
• 27:19
  live at 40 something degrees and higher, you
• 27:22
  know, 40, 50, 60 degrees latitude, then we get
• 27:27
  that where a significant amount of the year we
• 27:29
  have this 14 hours of darkness. And this was
• 27:31
  discovered by the same lab that eventually put
• 27:34
  out the idea of using seasonal, of using like the
• 27:37
  SAD lamps for seasonal affective disorder is
• 27:40
  they're like, oh, light controls sleep timing.
• 27:43
  And so if there's more than 14 hours of this
• 27:46
  really dim environment, people will naturally
• 27:49
  shift into a polyphasic sleep pattern which is
• 27:53
  actually just like what the animals. And like
• 27:55
  there was a really amazing study that just came
• 27:56
  out this year that's one of the most
• 27:58
  comprehensive sleep studies that's ever been done
• 28:01
  on people living in non industrial societies
• 28:04
  versus industrial. And so it's really interesting
• 28:07
  that we have this idea of 8 hours of sleep as
• 28:09
  being the norm and like beneficial. And these old
• 28:13
  sleep researchers and what they see happening in
• 28:16
  societies that don't live this, you know, modern
• 28:19
  technological way is that that's not actually a
• 28:24
  human normal, that's the, it's an artifact of 16
• 28:27
  hours of artificial light. So that was a total
• 28:32
  like mind blowing moment for me as a mom because
• 28:37
  I have worked with so many moms who are like
• 28:39
  trying to care for their babies around the clock,
• 28:41
  but they're like, I was in bed for 10 hours,
• 28:46
  like, why do I feel so tired still? It's like
• 28:49
  they're getting woken up over and over. And so if
• 28:51
  you just allow yourself more time in bed and a
• 28:54
  more gentle. So oftentimes it's more like six
• 28:58
  hours of sleep with a 20 minute to two hour nap
• 29:02
  at a different time of day. So if it's like if
• 29:05
  you have 16 hours of darkness in the winter, you
• 29:07
  might sleep for four hours, wake up for like two,
• 29:10
  two hours, go to sleep for another four hours and
• 29:12
  then get up. So that middle of the night waking
• 29:16
  is really stressful for people because they're
• 29:18
  like, my circadian health was so good, why am I
• 29:21
  not sleeping eight hours? Well, because your
• 29:25
  environment, circadian health is so good.
• 29:28
  Exactly. And then it's especially back to your.
• 29:30
  Meredith Oke: Ancestral way of sleeping.
• 29:32
  Nikko Kennedy: Yep, exactly. So yeah, usually like one like four
• 29:36
  to six hour block that overlaps. The natural
• 29:38
  darkness is like a stable necessity across all of
• 29:43
  human time.
• 29:45
  Meredith Oke: Okay. And then so yeah, it's not like you need
• 29:48
  eight. So eight hours in a row is not the gold
• 29:50
  standard. The gold standard is four to six in a
• 29:53
  row while it's dark outside.
• 29:55
  Nikko Kennedy: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And then the other part as
• 30:00
  needed. Yep, exactly. And the nap kind of shifts
• 30:03
  like we all know about like the siesta. Right.
• 30:04
  And so like in the summertime you have this
• 30:06
  endless long day. And so it can like in the above
• 30:10
  the Arctic Circle, traditionally it was like four
• 30:13
  hours of sleep about midnight, four hours of
• 30:14
  sleep around noon, like a totally biphasic sleep
• 30:17
  pattern. And then like, you know, areas that have
• 30:21
  the siesta, it's a little bit more temperate of a
• 30:23
  climate. So it's like you have your main sleep
• 30:26
  and then you have a shorter sleep in the heat,
• 30:28
  you know, through the heat of the day and the
• 30:30
  shade and then like going on and you don't even
• 30:33
  ness in that second sleep. Depending on the time
• 30:36
  of year, sometimes you're just like closing your
• 30:38
  eyes for 20 minutes and it's just kind of like a
• 30:39
  gentle drift and then you just drift back in and
• 30:41
  you go. It's not always like a full, full blown
• 30:45
  nap. Right. But that just having more flexibility
• 30:48
  with that, like it doesn't really fit with like a
• 30:50
  schedule of a 9 to 5. And you were talking about
• 30:53
  puberty and like when I was growing up, I went to
• 30:56
  public school and lived in a remote area where
• 30:59
  the bus ride was over an hour. So it was like
• 31:01
  catching the bus at 6:20 in the morning. And so
• 31:05
  it was like alarms at 5 through my puberty years.
• 31:07
  And those were the only years that I ever had
• 31:09
  insomnia. And I'm like, you know, looking back
• 31:11
  and like all of the stress and like thinking
• 31:13
  about the lighting that we had and the sports and
• 31:16
  like working out like right before bed and all of
• 31:19
  these things that, right. I was doing like trying
• 31:21
  to be healthy, trying to be good, trying to like
• 31:23
  have a straight A student doing the
• 31:25
  extracurriculars and you know, like immediately
• 31:28
  waking on, flipping on those bright lights and
• 31:31
  you know, being up at those times. And it's just
• 31:34
  so stressful to the circadian rhythm. And a lot
• 31:38
  of people just think of the circadian rhythm as
• 31:40
  being like, I do the same thing every day. So
• 31:44
  that's one of the other things that I'm always
• 31:46
  like, sleep is an effect of the circadian rhythm.
• 31:49
  It doesn't cause the circadian rhythm. It's. And
• 31:51
  keeping the same exact schedule day to day
• 31:53
  doesn't necessarily mean that you have, you could
• 31:56
  have a stable circadian rhythm, but it doesn't
• 31:58
  necessarily mean that it's a strong circadian
• 32:00
  rhythm. So kind of making those differentiations.
• 32:02
  And obviously I've gone really far in order to
• 32:06
  allow myself and my family a very, very flexible
• 32:09
  circadian environment that like, like I said, if
• 32:11
  you would have asked me in like 2013, like this
• 32:15
  would not have been possible. Like my, like I
• 32:17
  said, my alarm was set for 4, 24, 30 in the
• 32:20
  morning because I was working east coast from PA
• 32:23
  that I could wake up before my daughter, daughter
• 32:25
  get my work done, take, you know, my lunch break
• 32:29
  would be getting her around, getting her up for
• 32:31
  breakfast and all of that. Right. And like just
• 32:34
  my life was very different then. So I completely
• 32:36
  understand for the people who are like, no way, I
• 32:38
  could never do that. Like, you know, there's no
• 32:41
  way that I could be that flexible. There's no way
• 32:43
  that I can nap. Same thing. Like moms who have
• 32:46
  two toddlers, it's really difficult for them to
• 32:49
  nap my life because of not putting my older kids
• 32:52
  in school. They're like a whole pack, right? So
• 32:55
  if there's a 13 year old around and my husband
• 32:57
  can also work from home when he does have events,
• 33:00
  they're, you know, we deal with that. But they're
• 33:03
  usually evening because he's a musician, which is
• 33:05
  another one. Like musicians get such a bad rap in
• 33:07
  the world. You know, people who are circadian
• 33:09
  savvy are always like, oh, musicians have the
• 33:12
  worst circadian rhythm because they're always out
• 33:14
  at night. And so like the things that we've done
• 33:16
  to, to figure out that like if he has a night
• 33:18
  gig, we're gonna make priority. Like my husband's
• 33:21
  gonna have a nap in the afternoon to prepare for
• 33:24
  the sleep disruption he's gonna get at night. And
• 33:27
  then like figuring out the commute times of
• 33:29
  everything so that he does get a period of sleep.
• 33:31
  It overlaps the darkness. Even if he is, you
• 33:35
  know, playing until two in the morning. Right. So
• 33:41
  he has the nap before.
• 33:42
  Meredith Oke: This is like a really important point because we,
• 33:46
  you know, we're used to doing this level of
• 33:48
  planning around eating, right? It's like going on
• 33:51
  a trip or taking our children. We need to, we
• 33:54
  account for the meal times. We account, okay,
• 33:56
  well how we're going to feed and be like, okay,
• 33:58
  well we can do like do a restaurant or some fast
• 34:00
  food, but no more than, you know, we did a day of
• 34:04
  that. Like, we have to get somewhere we can cook
• 34:06
  and, you know, like, we think about. And it's not
• 34:09
  a big deal that, of course, you plan around food.
• 34:12
  And what I hear that your family has done is to
• 34:15
  do that same thing with light and circadian
• 34:18
  rhythm and to take it. Take that into account and
• 34:23
  make it just as an important A factor.
• 34:26
  Nikko Kennedy: Right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Keeping the
• 34:30
  environment there, keeping the schedule there.
• 34:34
  Yeah. And like you said, food, like, that's a
• 34:36
  really big, important cue. Yeah. For the
• 34:40
  circadian rhythm. So regular meal times is really
• 34:43
  important. I would maybe argue even more
• 34:46
  important than the regular sleep times. Just the
• 34:49
  way the digestive system works. Yeah. So having
• 34:52
  that.
• 34:52
  Meredith Oke: So having. Having breakfast within what, like a
• 34:57
  certain period of time upon waking and.
• 34:59
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, before.
• 35:01
  Meredith Oke: Okay, so tell us what your optimal would be.
• 35:04
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, again, it's. There's flexibility, but,
• 35:08
  like, optimal flexibility in all things. Yeah.
• 35:11
  Getting that savory, like, shifting to a savory
• 35:14
  breakfast. And something I always talk about,
• 35:18
  too, is, like, that I do find that there is a
• 35:21
  significant component of heat and warm food
• 35:25
  because a lot of people like to have a cold
• 35:27
  breakfast because it's convenient. And I totally
• 35:29
  understand. And so sometimes we will do like a
• 35:32
  first breakfast, second breakfast kind of thing
• 35:34
  just based on the way the day needs to flow. But
• 35:38
  as a rule, I really like to get at least one
• 35:42
  solid warm meal in the morning for getting the
• 35:47
  full, like, you know, belly weight and like, just
• 35:51
  the warmth of nourishment. So this is a lot of my
• 35:55
  work in exploring polyphasic circadian is through
• 36:01
  work that was actually done by the Navy. And so I
• 36:05
  think we talked a little bit about this before,
• 36:09
  but the Navy has an incredible amount of control
• 36:11
  over their sailors, and so they've been able to
• 36:14
  do some incredible research. They also had some
• 36:17
  horrible tragedies based on sailors being really
• 36:20
  sleep deprived. And so they had really strong
• 36:24
  need to figure out circadian health because the
• 36:27
  ship has to operate around the clock.
• 36:29
  Meredith Oke: Right. So that's where research that came out. I
• 36:33
  forget sometime in the past five to 10 years that
• 36:35
  shows sleep deprivation was, like, at the state,
• 36:38
  you might as well be drunk.
• 36:39
  Nikko Kennedy: Yep, exactly.
• 36:40
  Meredith Oke: If you're driving or operating something
• 36:42
  important like a ship.
• 36:43
  Nikko Kennedy: Yes, exactly. So I always think about this, too,
• 36:46
  in terms of, like, our ERs.
• 36:49
  Meredith Oke: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:53
  Nikko Kennedy: Sure.
• 36:53
  Meredith Oke: If you get him on hours, 16 of his shift.
• 36:56
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:57
  Meredith Oke: Basically had nine margaritas.
• 36:59
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, so.
• 37:04
  Meredith Oke: Okay, maybe not exactly, but.
• 37:06
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's where I
• 37:11
  learned about the it's really important to have,
• 37:14
  like, they want to get their sailors to have
• 37:16
  their at least one of those solid sleepover
• 37:18
  windows overlapping the natural darkness. That's
• 37:20
  where I found that from. And have tested and
• 37:25
  experimented with it and found that, yes, that is
• 37:27
  really true. You know, some people will say,
• 37:30
  like, an hour of sleep before midnight is worth
• 37:32
  more than two hours afterwards. Or, like,
• 37:33
  different little, like, aphorisms you might have
• 37:35
  heard around this idea. Because lots of people,
• 37:37
  like, it's just the thing about circadian health
• 37:40
  is, like, it's so obvious. So, like, at first
• 37:42
  it's really counterintuitive. And you're like,
• 37:44
  okay, I'm gonna try this. We're like, okay,
• 37:46
  we've, like, went outside, we watched sunrise,
• 37:49
  and we turned off all the lights. Like, what's
• 37:51
  this like? And we're, like, sitting there by
• 37:52
  candlelight and like, oh, this is really dark,
• 37:55
  but it's kind of atmospheric. And pretty soon,
• 37:58
  like, the kids are, like, all drowsy and sleepy
• 38:00
  and, like, ready to sing a song and go to sleep.
• 38:04
  And then eventually, like, you know, everyone
• 38:06
  gets on board, and then you start pouring into
• 38:08
  others. Like, a moment when a lot of families
• 38:12
  reach out and they're super proud. They're like,
• 38:14
  hey, I feel so cool. I just got red light tape
• 38:17
  and put it over my refrigerators and my fans and
• 38:21
  my VC or, you know, whatever appliances, and it's
• 38:27
  like a milestone moment.
• 38:28
  Meredith Oke: Crossed the Rubicon when you put red tape over
• 38:31
  the light in your fridge. I was FaceTiming with
• 38:34
  someone recently, and.
• 38:35
  Nikko Kennedy: I was walking around.
• 38:37
  Meredith Oke: It was a friend. It was so. It was casual. And I
• 38:39
  opened the fridge while we were talking, and she
• 38:41
  was like, what is that? Oh, the red electrical
• 38:48
  tape over the light. She's like, you really take
• 38:52
  this seriously, don't you? I'm like, yeah, I
• 38:54
  really do.
• 38:55
  Nikko Kennedy: Yes. And once you feel it, like, you just
• 39:00
  understand it, and it's so visceral, like, for
• 39:04
  people who are, you know, health coaches or
• 39:07
  practitioners listening to this, like, it's
• 39:09
  really cool because the, like, adoption rate and
• 39:13
  people actually sticking through with this is,
• 39:15
  like, so high compared with, like, I don't know,
• 39:21
  like, exercise or diet. You know what I mean?
• 39:24
  Meredith Oke: The circadian rhythm. Habit changes.
• 39:27
  Nikko Kennedy: Yes.
• 39:27
  Meredith Oke: Yeah, exactly. You know, that's. I mean, my
• 39:29
  experience is all anecdotal. I haven't tracked
• 39:31
  it, but it. That seems. That feels very true.
• 39:33
  It's like, once people experience what it's like
• 39:36
  to go to sleep and wake up in a circadian
• 39:41
  optimized, like, there is no going back because
• 39:43
  it's so. It is relatively easy compared to
• 39:46
  anything else. And yeah, it's just like, oh,
• 39:49
  yeah, I could feel like this in the morning.
• 39:51
  Nikko Kennedy: Wake up without the sandman, without a headache,
• 39:55
  really, because, yeah, I remember when I thought
• 39:57
  it was just normal, like, oh, morning suck.
• 40:00
  Meredith Oke: Yeah, same for years. And then, like, I forced
• 40:04
  myself out of it because I'm like, I don't want
• 40:06
  my children to grow up thinking that mommy is
• 40:10
  terrible in the morning and that mornings are
• 40:11
  terrible. Like, that's not. That's not a legacy
• 40:15
  I'd like to leave. So I forced myself out of it.
• 40:20
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 40:21
  Meredith Oke: But it wasn't until the circadian rhythm stuff
• 40:23
  that I was like, oh, I just naturally happy in
• 40:26
  the morning. Now I'm not talking. I don't want to
• 40:30
  super engage with anyone the first 30 to 40
• 40:33
  minutes, but I'm not grumpy.
• 40:37
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, it's a big difference.
• 40:39
  Meredith Oke: A big difference.
• 40:40
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah. So I love that too. That was during the. I
• 40:47
  haven't done very much school with my kids
• 40:49
  because it's never been something that just
• 40:52
  worked out. But my oldest, I did try school
• 40:54
  several times, and that was one of the big
• 40:57
  hurdles for me is that she was not happy with
• 41:01
  getting woken up at the same time every day. And
• 41:03
  it just felt so right.
• 41:05
  Meredith Oke: You mean sending her to school versus homeschool?
• 41:08
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, exactly. Like, with homeschool, I can match
• 41:13
  her activities and responsibilities with her
• 41:18
  energy level that day. And when it was school, it
• 41:23
  was like, if it's Math day, it's Math Day, and it
• 41:29
  happens at this time.
• 41:32
  Meredith Oke: My son has AP chemistry at. At 7:50am and I'm
• 41:38
  like, you know, sorry about that.
• 41:42
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, exactly. And I remember what that was like.
• 41:46
  And when I was in the, like, flow of it, it was
• 41:48
  like a challenge. I was like, okay. You know,
• 41:50
  like, every day just felt like a race. And it was
• 41:52
  like, okay. And I was working hard and, you know,
• 41:54
  I was satisfied. It was. It was fine for that
• 41:56
  time. But it's not like, once I became a mom and
• 42:01
  saw like, the challenge, and I'm talking about,
• 42:02
  like, kindergarten. Right. This is when I was
• 42:05
  going through this and being like, oh, it is. You
• 42:08
  know, it is 7am and we have to get to school by
• 42:11
  8:30, I really better wake her up. And she really
• 42:13
  doesn't want to. And she really doesn't want to
• 42:15
  eat breakfast because I just woke her up and I
• 42:17
  didn't, you know, I hadn't, like, taken her out
• 42:20
  to the sun yet. It was like, straight from, like,
• 42:23
  bedroom, bathroom, kitchen table for breakfast.
• 42:26
  And like, have seen and talked with so many
• 42:29
  parents too, where they're like, how do you get
• 42:30
  your kids to eat breakfast? They're just like,
• 42:36
  you know, so groggy. So, you know, and it's just
• 42:42
  amazing, like when you get into a little, you
• 42:44
  know, for me, I am doing this very flexible thing
• 42:48
  with them. And so they, you know, generally are
• 42:51
  pretty excited about whatever thing they're going
• 42:53
  to do because it's just like in time. And so it's
• 42:56
  more like we, you know, math time still comes
• 43:00
  around. It's not like it doesn't, but it's not
• 43:05
  like I'm like, yep, every, you know, Every
• 43:09
  Tuesday at 8:45am she's going to be totally fed
• 43:13
  and happy and ready to digest some new math
• 43:15
  skills.
• 43:16
  Meredith Oke: Yeah.
• 43:18
  Nikko Kennedy: And so, yeah, for lots of people they'd be like,
• 43:20
  no, that's way too impractical. I can't handle
• 43:22
  that, you know, level of upheaval and everything.
• 43:25
  And I, you know, totally understand that. So I do
• 43:27
  tailor, we talk or how do we say, sometimes like
• 43:32
  titrate, titrate the information. Right. So I'm
• 43:35
  not like telling people who are just getting into
• 43:37
  this who like are, you know, maybe they're just
• 43:40
  going to dim their evening lights and that's
• 43:43
  going to help them all sleep a little bit better
• 43:44
  and have a better time with that 7am breakfast,
• 43:47
  out to school and work and everything. And that's
• 43:50
  fine. Like, it's not like you have to go all the
• 43:52
  way into it. You can, you know, use light. Like
• 43:55
  we were talking about the seasonal affective
• 43:57
  disorder and using the light. So like, you know,
• 43:59
  we can use artificial light and the artificial
• 44:05
  thermostat. It's not like I don't use heat in my
• 44:08
  house to be like totally primal with nature.
• 44:10
  Right. We still like our creature comforts and so
• 44:13
  finding the right balance and that's like, you
• 44:16
  know, just kind of like step by step trying out
• 44:18
  different things and feeling how all the pieces
• 44:21
  fit together and you know, the different seasons
• 44:24
  of life and all of that works. And then one of
• 44:30
  the other things that I was hoping we'd have a
• 44:31
  chance to talk about today is like, how do we as
• 44:38
  circadian savvy people then choose to work on the
• 44:41
  computer?
• 44:42
  Meredith Oke: Yes, yes, that's, that's a big one. And yeah,
• 44:48
  let's talk about it. I also want to say, because
• 44:51
  I can feel people worried about my son. He goes
• 44:58
  outside when he wakes up, then he eats a nice
• 45:01
  protein breakfast and then he has like a 20
• 45:03
  minute walk to school.
• 45:05
  Nikko Kennedy: Oh, perfect.
• 45:05
  Meredith Oke: During rain we drive him. But so I'm like, is
• 45:10
  your brain awake by the time you get there? He's
• 45:13
  like, yeah, mostly we do. Yeah, you know, do you
• 45:18
  know we do do our best because you have totally
• 45:21
  changed your life and doing like homeschooling
• 45:25
  and living in a rural area, which is amazing. And
• 45:28
  I love hearing how you have done that and how you
• 45:31
  plan your day and how you plan your life. And
• 45:35
  then I, I'm more in like closer to the quote
• 45:38
  unquote normal, normal type of thing. My kids are
• 45:41
  in public school. We, you know, we moved after
• 45:46
  we'd been steeped in this. So we were like
• 45:49
  purposely chose a house that was outside of the
• 45:52
  middle of town and close to a forest preserve so
• 45:56
  we can have our outdoor time and. Or not near a
• 45:59
  whole bunch of other neighbors and things. But
• 46:02
  yeah, I mean as we were saying, we all make our,
• 46:05
  make our choices and do our best. That being
• 46:07
  said, we also work on our computers all day long.
• 46:12
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah. So it's like the double whammy of light,
• 46:19
  light pollution, EMF and being sedentary are like
• 46:23
  the really big circadian health challenges there.
• 46:28
  So yeah, I've been doing it for a long time and
• 46:30
  have had phases where it has been absolutely
• 46:35
  terrible. Like I said, kind of like that
• 46:38
  catalyzing moment where I like got the red screen
• 46:47
  filter that would automatically start blocking
• 46:49
  blue light at sunset on my screen. And that was a
• 46:54
  huge game changing moment where I suddenly was
• 46:59
  not feeling as motivated was how I first
• 47:02
  perceived it. Because with these lights it gives
• 47:07
  us a cortisol boost. And when you stay up past a
• 47:11
  certain level your body like squeezes itself so
• 47:14
  it gives you that adrenal adrenaline kind of
• 47:16
  boost which is actually kind of addicting. So
• 47:21
  when I first got my, actually when my husband
• 47:24
  first installed the red light automatic filter on
• 47:29
  my computer and I lost the motivation that I had
• 47:34
  for like that end of work surge because like I
• 47:37
  said like at that time like I was a new mom. I
• 47:42
  was going to school full time online and had a
• 47:44
  full time online job. So it was really actually
• 47:50
  super disruptive. But it ended up being in a good
• 47:53
  way. But like I said, it was like.
• 47:55
  Meredith Oke: My life is set up where I have to be productive
• 47:58
  on my computer at night. And now with these
• 48:01
  optimized environments, my fatigue is real, I'm
• 48:05
  tired, can't work.
• 48:09
  Nikko Kennedy: Exactly. So I found that I had to drop to part
• 48:13
  time school and like for people that know me,
• 48:16
  they know that I do a good job at whatever I do
• 48:20
  and so concur.
• 48:24
  Meredith Oke: And.
• 48:24
  Nikko Kennedy: I'm, I'm not trying to brag, I'm just like, I
• 48:26
  have, like I have.
• 48:27
  Meredith Oke: To do things hardwired to over deliver and that's
• 48:32
  just how they are.
• 48:34
  Nikko Kennedy: So. Yeah. And I had my baby before I had finished
• 48:38
  my degree. And so this is something many people
• 48:42
  may not know about me, but I actually dropped out
• 48:44
  of college four times before I finished. And so
• 48:48
  this was one of those times where I was like,
• 48:50
  well, I'm gonna have to pull back from this for
• 48:55
  now and put it off. Like, I really wanted to have
• 48:58
  that finality and finish and move into the next
• 49:00
  stage of my career. And it took me a lot longer
• 49:03
  than I wanted to in terms of like those
• 49:05
  sacrifices that I had to make to get where I am
• 49:08
  now. So one of the, this is amazing.
• 49:12
  Meredith Oke: Though because most of the time people at that
• 49:16
  age, I don't know exactly how, how old you are at
• 49:18
  this time, but probably in your twenties. Right
• 49:21
  Though that is a time where most of us will
• 49:25
  sacrifice everything health related for.
• 49:28
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 49:29
  Meredith Oke: For those external factors, for career ambitions
• 49:34
  and all of the things. I certainly did. I do
• 49:38
  believe we're starting to pay the price. Earlier,
• 49:40
  like I went into mitochondrial dysfunction in my
• 49:43
  30s, so there you go. But I'm so interested in
• 49:47
  the fact that you were. That you made the choice
• 49:49
  to prioritize your health and well being.
• 49:54
  Nikko Kennedy: And to.
• 49:54
  Meredith Oke: Delay these goals, not let them go, just put them
• 49:57
  on a timeline that was going to work for your
• 49:59
  biology.
• 50:01
  Nikko Kennedy: Exactly. Yeah. So I did eventually finish my
• 50:04
  degree. So, you know, that was great. It just
• 50:07
  took longer than I thought and I was able to do
• 50:10
  it.
• 50:10
  Meredith Oke: In a way that was that because you are, you are
• 50:13
  hardworking, you are ambitious, you do like to
• 50:16
  get things done and do them properly. How did you
• 50:18
  get to the point where you're like, you know what
• 50:20
  I am, I'm going to slow this down, I'm going to
• 50:23
  slow my roll on this.
• 50:25
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, well, part of it is like I said that, that
• 50:28
  wanting to deliver. And so to me, and you know, I
• 50:32
  have peers and colleagues and people I really
• 50:35
  care about and they were totally fine. And what
• 50:38
  was the saying back then, D's get degrees.
• 50:45
  Meredith Oke: I, I know, I know it is. C's to get degrees. I
• 50:47
  think D's is really okay, but okay.
• 50:50
  Nikko Kennedy: Right.
• 50:51
  Meredith Oke: They're like, whatever, you just do what.
• 50:54
  Nikko Kennedy: You have to do. And that just couldn't sit. I
• 50:57
  just, I just couldn't do that. So I had to, you
• 51:01
  know, fully disengage and then reengage. When I
• 51:04
  did have the energy for it. And that's something
• 51:08
  that I've found, you know, also fits with kind of
• 51:12
  maybe how I've ended up in this very extreme end
• 51:14
  of like wintertime polyphasic. So sleep being
• 51:17
  something that is like, good for me because I'm
• 51:19
  like, if the moon's up and it's beautiful and
• 51:24
  it's like crisp and frosty and the stars are
• 51:27
  sparkly and my fire is crackling and my husband
• 51:29
  also happens to be awake, like, we're gonna get
• 51:31
  up and have some fun right now and like hang out
• 51:34
  together. And like, all the kids are sleeping.
• 51:36
  This is absolutely great. And if it means that
• 51:39
  6am is gonna roll around and I'm still gonna
• 51:41
  sleep, that fits with my energetic flow. And so I
• 51:48
  think similarly with that, you know, decision at
• 51:52
  that time to pull back from my college, keep the
• 51:54
  work because I needed the work. But eventually I
• 51:59
  did quit that job too. The east coast from
• 52:01
  Pacific 1 and move into freelancing, where I was
• 52:05
  able to control my schedule. Those things happen
• 52:07
  pretty quickly. So I was like, okay, nighttime
• 52:10
  night school's not working. That's when I'm
• 52:13
  waking up at 4 in the morning and I can't give up
• 52:15
  before in the morning. So I'm gonna quit the
• 52:16
  night school for now, pick it up later. And then
• 52:21
  I was like, okay, I definitely can figure out
• 52:25
  this freelancing thing to have a job where I can
• 52:28
  work on my own time. And so fairly quickly, like
• 52:33
  the first month, I think, or the first year, I
• 52:35
  remember like mapping it out. Like, the first
• 52:37
  year, I earned like $5,000 less than I had the
• 52:40
  year that I'd had that job. So it was kind of a
• 52:42
  loss. But then the next year, I earned like twice
• 52:44
  as much as I'd had with that job. So it was like
• 52:47
  the short term loss was more than made up for in
• 52:51
  the long term, like taking control of my schedule
• 52:56
  and taking control of my work life. And that was
• 52:59
  when I was like, you know, from then on I've been
• 53:01
  like, fairly entrepreneurial, doing various
• 53:04
  things online to figure out how to not have
• 53:09
  someone saying that they want me to show up at
• 53:11
  5:25am for a meeting, you know, so then once all
• 53:19
  of that was like rolling and I felt like I had a
• 53:22
  consistent freelancing business. Then at that
• 53:24
  point, I went back to school part time. Right. So
• 53:28
  it's just kind of like for me learning to tune
• 53:32
  in, to follow my energetic flow and like, know
• 53:35
  when I have energy to like, push. Like right now
• 53:38
  I'm in my third trimester. Of pregnancy. I've
• 53:41
  been through like my second trimester and I've
• 53:43
  been so motivated. But like my first trimester,
• 53:46
  it was like I had to rest during that phase. So
• 53:49
  it's taken me a long time to like get comfortable
• 53:51
  with that. Because of that, we tend to want to
• 53:54
  just drive and drive and drive and drive and have
• 53:56
  everything be predictable. And so I've learned
• 53:58
  how to be a little bit more flexible, a lot more
• 54:02
  flexible with my own ebb and flow and to trust
• 54:05
  that I'll be able to catch up and have those
• 54:06
  times where I'm going to surge and push and make
• 54:08
  huge advances. And then other times where I'm
• 54:10
  going to withdraw and I'm going to take things
• 54:12
  slower and fill in, you know, my body's needs and
• 54:16
  you know, maybe sleep until after 8 in the
• 54:19
  morning, which for a mom with four kids I'd be
• 54:22
  like, what? How can you do that?
• 54:25
  Meredith Oke: Yeah, no, that's like sleeping till noon for a
• 54:29
  non parent.
• 54:31
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 54:32
  Meredith Oke: You know, I just really love how you are modeling
• 54:36
  how to have a, you know, create a life that is in
• 54:42
  alignment with, you know, the natural rhythms of
• 54:46
  nature, of the seasons, of your body. And I'm
• 54:49
  really thinking about, based on what you just
• 54:52
  said, how many people, how often we feel like
• 54:55
  there's something wrong or we're doing something
• 54:58
  wrong if we're not able to stay in that hyper
• 55:01
  productive.
• 55:02
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 55:03
  Meredith Oke: Mode all the time. And we're not meant to, you
• 55:09
  know. And so I love that you're modeling how to
• 55:13
  be at peace with that. And it's like, you know,
• 55:16
  yeah, sometimes we move forward and make quantum
• 55:18
  leaps and other times it's like we just take care
• 55:21
  of the basics. And I think that's an important,
• 55:25
  you know, thing to remember in life. It's like,
• 55:30
  you know, when I was growing up, it was always
• 55:32
  like all of the media around getting your period.
• 55:37
  Right. Like all of the ads, like take this or use
• 55:41
  this and so that you don't have to slow down, you
• 55:44
  don't have to change anything. You could stay
• 55:45
  doing all the things you do all the rest of the
• 55:47
  time, even when you have your period. And it
• 55:49
  wasn't until later in life that I started to get
• 55:51
  educated on the fact that like you're maybe
• 55:54
  you're not supposed to be at that level all the
• 55:57
  time. And there are times, you know.
• 56:01
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 56:02
  Meredith Oke: That maybe, you know, maybe you're supposed to
• 56:04
  chill out a little bit when you have your period
• 56:05
  and not be doing gymnastics competitions or
• 56:09
  whatever was happening.
• 56:10
  Nikko Kennedy: Absolutely controversials. Yeah, definitely.
• 56:15
  Yeah. That absolutely, yeah, fits. Definitely.
• 56:19
  Yeah. The natural ebb and flow of, of energy. So
• 56:24
  in the beginning of the podcast we talked about
• 56:26
  my work with families because that's really what
• 56:29
  is, has been primary for the past few years since
• 56:32
  I made the pivot. But in the background, which
• 56:35
  used to be my primary is doing business and
• 56:38
  marketing consultations and you know, my journey
• 56:43
  from being employee, driving my health into the
• 56:48
  ground, being matched with, you know, clients
• 56:52
  that, you know, that other people were placing
• 56:54
  for me and how all that didn't fit with my
• 56:57
  energetic flow shifting over into freelancing and
• 57:01
  doing business and marketing consultations, which
• 57:04
  I did for almost 10 years and then kind of put it
• 57:07
  down and now that's something I still do in the
• 57:09
  background and that you and I have been
• 57:10
  collaborating on together with the, you know,
• 57:14
  coaching program that we're doing. And it has
• 57:20
  been so clear to me that the financial freedom
• 57:24
  piece is a huge part of what keeps people locked
• 57:28
  into their current paradigm. Because the in our
• 57:33
  world, like money is one of the ways that we can
• 57:36
  feel secure and so anything that's going to
• 57:41
  potentially interfere with our money making
• 57:44
  potential is very scary. So like sleeping in,
• 57:50
  missing work, not being able to complete an
• 57:52
  assignment, those kinds of things are, can be
• 57:56
  viscerally terrifying to people. And I think
• 57:59
  that's one of the where building circadian
• 58:02
  community is so important and also where like
• 58:07
  there was a time when I was closing down my
• 58:09
  business cases that I thought I was putting it
• 58:13
  down forever. And then when I went into health
• 58:16
  and wellness space and found how much business as
• 58:22
  the paradigm is right now doesn't serve people's
• 58:27
  health and wellness and that health and wellness
• 58:29
  practitioners as a group often are also not able
• 58:34
  to fully actualize their visions without certain
• 58:41
  necessary business and in this day and age,
• 58:44
  computer skills. So in that background I've kind
• 58:48
  of started distilling what I've learned about
• 58:54
  running a computer based business, circadian
• 58:57
  style as a homeschooling mom, right. It's like a
• 59:03
  very wild, unique juggle of things that I figured
• 59:06
  out how to make work and having certain rules and
• 59:11
  processes, right. Like I used to be like a
• 59:13
  digital business consultant and you know,
• 59:15
  efficiency and all of that kind of thing. And now
• 59:18
  it's a lot more and I tend to call what I do
• 59:20
  workflows with the flows being a really important
• 59:25
  part of it because it's not about, it is very
• 59:30
  process oriented but it's about understanding
• 59:32
  where processes can flex across time and also how
• 59:36
  to be really efficient and make sure that the
• 59:39
  time spent Online is doing valuable work and work
• 59:46
  that brings like, that intrinsic satisfaction
• 59:49
  there and that it is all structured in a way that
• 59:53
  gives that flexibility, flexibility and freedom
• 59:55
  to be able to accommodate your energy when you're
• 59:57
  ready to just surge and rail, and also to be able
• 1:00:01
  to accommodate, when you do need to withdraw and
• 1:00:05
  replenish and focus your energy in other
• 1:00:07
  directions. So that workflows element, there is
• 1:00:11
  something that is kind of coming around now, and
• 1:00:16
  I appreciate all of the opportunities that I have
• 1:00:18
  to help people with, you know, optimizing the
• 1:00:22
  work elements there with, you know, the circadian
• 1:00:27
  and life and all the other things that we do.
• 1:00:30
  Meredith Oke: Yes, because it does. It all fits together. And
• 1:00:33
  if you have, yeah, the clarity of purpose, the
• 1:00:39
  clarity of your goals and then melt, meeting that
• 1:00:42
  with an optimized workflow, you can take care of
• 1:00:47
  the basics in the downflow periods. And then when
• 1:00:50
  that surge comes, it's so clear what to work on.
• 1:00:54
  And you don't need to be in super surge every
• 1:00:57
  day, every minute, because you get as much done
• 1:01:00
  in those surge periods when you have clarity and
• 1:01:03
  an optimized flow than you would just trying to
• 1:01:07
  hammer through it every day. And, yeah, I think
• 1:01:11
  that's been what is. What is so fun about, you
• 1:01:14
  know, Nico and I are doing this coaching program,
• 1:01:18
  expansion circle and yeah, helping supporting
• 1:01:23
  people to get that clarity and then helping them
• 1:01:25
  to really break it, break it down, to actually
• 1:01:28
  doing it in a way that works with their life,
• 1:01:31
  that works with their biology, because we take
• 1:01:34
  all of that into account. I had never really
• 1:01:37
  thought about it like that just now. We've been
• 1:01:40
  doing it for a few months now. I'm like, yeah,
• 1:01:43
  this is really cool.
• 1:01:44
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, So, I mean, for
• 1:01:48
  people who are listening, they probably are like,
• 1:01:50
  what, you guys are doing a business coaching
• 1:01:53
  program? Like, I have no idea about this, but
• 1:01:57
  yeah, we, like, you know, we've been working on
• 1:02:01
  all this stuff at IAQB and qvc and one of the
• 1:02:05
  recurring things that, you know, people tell us,
• 1:02:09
  you know, a lot of people go through the
• 1:02:11
  certification program and are just, you know, it
• 1:02:14
  fits right in with their existing business and
• 1:02:15
  they're ready to fly. And then there's also a
• 1:02:18
  significant group who, you know, are having
• 1:02:21
  trouble with managing the time or figuring out
• 1:02:26
  how they're going to pivot based on this
• 1:02:29
  information. And, you know, this group often
• 1:02:31
  includes practitioners who are licensed and their
• 1:02:35
  license dictates how they're able to practice. So
• 1:02:39
  that can create a significant hurdle to
• 1:02:41
  integrating circadian light base. You know,
• 1:02:45
  prescribing grounding, or, you know, these
• 1:02:47
  different things that they learned in our
• 1:02:49
  program. Right. And so figuring out how to maybe
• 1:02:54
  even build a whole new business or education
• 1:02:56
  program around, like, the synthesis of their
• 1:02:59
  knowledge in a way that is, you know, safe and
• 1:03:01
  comfortable. And so, you know, those two groups
• 1:03:06
  of, like, the people who are just getting started
• 1:03:07
  all together and the people who are going through
• 1:03:09
  a major pivot, that was kind of the target that
• 1:03:13
  we had in mind of like, how do we help these
• 1:03:16
  people to, you know, fully achieve their vision?
• 1:03:19
  Because, you know, we're all inspired by knowing
• 1:03:22
  that LIGHT has such a foundational and, you know,
• 1:03:25
  such a huge impact on our well being and health.
• 1:03:29
  How do we effectively teach this and how do we
• 1:03:33
  not burn out while doing so effectively live it?
• 1:03:37
  Yeah.
• 1:03:37
  Meredith Oke: And that's the beautiful thing about having your
• 1:03:40
  own business. Like, it is filled with challenges.
• 1:03:44
  However, you know, it's everything that you've
• 1:03:48
  been saying, it is your business, so you get to
• 1:03:51
  structure it however you want.
• 1:03:54
  Nikko Kennedy: Right. And a lot of times people are.
• 1:03:57
  Meredith Oke: Like, oh, well, I have to be on zoom all day or I
• 1:03:59
  have to make this, make things last this long.
• 1:04:02
  And I'm like, why? Why do you have to do that?
• 1:04:05
  Who told you that? Oh, well, that's just how it
• 1:04:07
  is, I think. So does it work for you? Do you want
• 1:04:11
  it to be like that? No. Okay, well, it's yours.
• 1:04:14
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah. It's your business.
• 1:04:15
  Meredith Oke: You get to decide how it's structured.
• 1:04:18
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah. So you had a background as an executive
• 1:04:21
  coach before LIGHT took over your world?
• 1:04:28
  Meredith Oke: Before I applied all those skills to organizing
• 1:04:33
  information in a very unique area. Yes. Correct.
• 1:04:38
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah. So would you share a little bit about what
• 1:04:41
  that, how that is now coming in? Because I've
• 1:04:45
  been sitting and watching you do just amazing
• 1:04:48
  transformational work with people. And I
• 1:04:50
  experienced it when I was going through the IAQB
• 1:04:53
  certification. And then now watching you do it
• 1:04:55
  with other people and like, it's obviously a
• 1:04:57
  natural skill that you have, but also something
• 1:05:00
  that you dedicated yourself to learning how to do
• 1:05:04
  that. And so. Yeah. Could you share just a little
• 1:05:06
  bit about how you've done this? Yeah.
• 1:05:12
  Meredith Oke: Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's, it's coaching is
• 1:05:15
  coaching. Right. So you're supporting people to
• 1:05:18
  reach their goals. A lot of people in this
• 1:05:20
  community, those, those are health and wellness
• 1:05:21
  goals. And my background, it was career goals,
• 1:05:25
  business goals. You know, I also personal, I did
• 1:05:30
  stuff that would be more considered life
• 1:05:32
  coaching. But it's, you know, it's really
• 1:05:37
  difficult to see a greater vision for yourself
• 1:05:40
  when you're in it. Like when you're in the weeds,
• 1:05:44
  you know, we're talking about this. You and I had
• 1:05:46
  a call with Melissa, who helped us see a greater
• 1:05:49
  vision for what we're working on than we could
• 1:05:51
  see ourselves. And so the coaching skills are
• 1:05:55
  really about holding space for people to see a
• 1:05:58
  bigger vision they can see for themselves, and
• 1:06:00
  then helping them get there in a way that feels
• 1:06:03
  good, that is satisfying and fun and profitable.
• 1:06:08
  You know, there's a lot of shame and fear around
• 1:06:12
  making a sale and earning money and getting paid.
• 1:06:16
  That is, you know, in a. In the quantum field,
• 1:06:20
  sending out the signal that you're not available
• 1:06:22
  for any of that. And so to get that clarity, as
• 1:06:27
  we talk about, like, clarity, being a magnet does
• 1:06:30
  require some support. And that's, you know, what
• 1:06:33
  I, What I give because I'm. I'm not in. I'm not
• 1:06:37
  in it. I'm on the outside. But I have, you know,
• 1:06:41
  like, an unconditional desire for everyone to be
• 1:06:43
  successful. Like, I just really want everyone to
• 1:06:46
  be successful. And if you're in my world, I will
• 1:06:49
  do whatever I can to help you be successful.
• 1:06:52
  That's just how I am.
• 1:06:56
  Nikko Kennedy: Yes, I've definitely seen that.
• 1:07:00
  Meredith Oke: And I believe that people who understand all of
• 1:07:02
  the things that we've been talking about, you
• 1:07:05
  know, your success really matters to the world.
• 1:07:08
  It matters to you that you. So you can construct
• 1:07:11
  a life that feels good and that pays you, but it
• 1:07:14
  also, for everyone listening for you. Your
• 1:07:17
  success isn't a selfish ambition. It's a selfless
• 1:07:21
  ambition.
• 1:07:23
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, it makes such a huge difference the way you
• 1:07:26
  show up at work, like, you know, goes back to
• 1:07:30
  your family and all of the people that you care
• 1:07:32
  about that are not related to your work, too.
• 1:07:34
  Like, for all of you, you know, like, I've made
• 1:07:37
  so many of these transitions for my family and
• 1:07:39
  based on their needs as well as mine. You know, I
• 1:07:42
  haven't talked as much about that, but there's
• 1:07:44
  definitely, you know, things where, you know,
• 1:07:46
  moments where I had to step back and look out,
• 1:07:48
  say, oh, this isn't working for, you know, this
• 1:07:51
  child, or, oh, this isn't working for my husband.
• 1:07:56
  So even though I'm, you know, think that this is
• 1:07:59
  the right way, like, have to roll it back and
• 1:08:02
  figure out a different alternative path. And so
• 1:08:05
  that, yeah, all of the. The things that we do
• 1:08:09
  with lifestyle, like dreamlining and. And all
• 1:08:16
  that visioning work, it's been so fun doing it in
• 1:08:20
  community with you that we. We did had our first
• 1:08:25
  group come through Expansion Circle, where We got
• 1:08:29
  to kind of like play with the ideas and the, the
• 1:08:32
  collaboration and the energy and dynamic between
• 1:08:35
  you, Meredith and me, Nico, and the backgrounds
• 1:08:38
  each of us, you know, bring to these
• 1:08:41
  conversations. And you know that we both have
• 1:08:44
  this kind of like coaching, sometimes consulting
• 1:08:47
  more often coaching. But, you know, we, we each
• 1:08:50
  do have a lot of experience and have tried a lot
• 1:08:52
  of things in business and lifestyle and home and
• 1:08:56
  circadian health and all kinds of health and, and
• 1:09:01
  also like extensive like trainings and things do.
• 1:09:05
  Meredith, I know that you're constantly learning
• 1:09:09
  and growing your skill sets, and I'm also
• 1:09:11
  constantly learning and growing skill sets and it
• 1:09:13
  was so awesome to, you know, the first group of
• 1:09:16
  people we collected were similarly also always
• 1:09:19
  like learning and growing and trying new things.
• 1:09:22
  So to jump in and be able to have these kinds of
• 1:09:24
  conversations about what is your ideal lifestyle,
• 1:09:28
  what is your workflow? How do you want to feel
• 1:09:29
  when you do open your computer for the first time
• 1:09:33
  in the morning? How does that feel? What does
• 1:09:36
  that look like? What have you done before that?
• 1:09:39
  And same thing, like, when you close your
• 1:09:40
  computer, how do you feel about that time that
• 1:09:42
  you spent? How do you want to feel? Like, what
• 1:09:46
  are the changes between, you know, your ideals
• 1:09:49
  for those moments and the day to day realities
• 1:09:51
  and like, how do we bring, you know, coherence to
• 1:09:56
  the ideal lifestyle that we wish we could have
• 1:09:59
  and the, you know, life that we woke up to when
• 1:10:03
  we rolled out of bed this morning at whatever
• 1:10:05
  time it was.
• 1:10:10
  Meredith Oke: That's it. I love that. Yeah, that's it exactly.
• 1:10:14
  Because at the end of the day, it's just the day
• 1:10:17
  we have the day we're in right now, right this
• 1:10:20
  minute. And I love goals. I have goals, but it's
• 1:10:27
  a moment to moment and we're allowed to make
• 1:10:31
  those moments be in a way that generally
• 1:10:35
  speaking, make us feel good.
• 1:10:37
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 1:10:38
  Meredith Oke: And pass that on to others.
• 1:10:40
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, that was something I shared with too, or
• 1:10:43
  you know, with the group when we were talking and
• 1:10:46
  I was like, you know, those competitors out
• 1:10:48
  there, those people who you think are doing evil
• 1:10:51
  in the world, or those people who you think are
• 1:10:53
  so far ahead of you that you could never be in
• 1:10:55
  their shoes, but you kind of wish that you were a
• 1:10:57
  little bit. They have the same hours today as you
• 1:11:02
  do, the exact same hours in. So we have all kinds
• 1:11:06
  of tools. Like there's, you know, workflow
• 1:11:09
  optimization, there's delegation, there are
• 1:11:12
  partnerships, there are tools, there are
• 1:11:15
  softwares. Like, how do you, how do you choose
• 1:11:18
  the right ones of all of like the different
• 1:11:20
  things that at your disposal that are also at all
• 1:11:24
  of your competitor or role model model, you know,
• 1:11:28
  they also have them at your disposal. And so
• 1:11:30
  obviously, like some people have more money or
• 1:11:33
  some people have more experience or some people
• 1:11:36
  have a, you know, different network or whatever.
• 1:11:39
  But like the time in the day, that part is the
• 1:11:42
  same for everyone.
• 1:11:45
  Meredith Oke: Yes.
• 1:11:46
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 1:11:46
  Meredith Oke: And so, yeah. So no matter where you're at, there
• 1:11:49
  are, there are ways to structure things where the
• 1:11:53
  momentum will, will be increased, the results
• 1:11:56
  will be increased, the satisfaction be increased.
• 1:12:00
  And you know, not to be harsh, but often what is
• 1:12:04
  holding people back is they think it's all of
• 1:12:06
  these limitations, but it's really not having
• 1:12:10
  enough support to move out of your comfort zone
• 1:12:13
  is often what it comes down to.
• 1:12:15
  Nikko Kennedy: Right? Yep.
• 1:12:19
  Meredith Oke: I'll leave it at that. Because it is like change.
• 1:12:23
  I've been doing, looking at Martin Picard's work
• 1:12:27
  lately and the idea like change is it taxes our
• 1:12:33
  mitochondria like we need to have. So all of this
• 1:12:36
  mitochondria optimization work that we've been
• 1:12:38
  doing for our health, like, what is that
• 1:12:40
  translating into? That's translating into energy
• 1:12:42
  to live our lives. Like, what does that look
• 1:12:44
  like? Anyway, I could go on, but I won't. So.
• 1:12:48
  Okay, before we wrap, because I know, I know my
• 1:12:52
  people and they're going to ask, they're going to
• 1:12:54
  say at the beginning, Nico said there were six
• 1:12:57
  ways to support your melatonin and you covered
• 1:13:00
  four of them. So.
• 1:13:02
  Nikko Kennedy: Okay, perfect.
• 1:13:03
  Meredith Oke: Okay, I hear you all. We haven't even published
• 1:13:05
  this yet, but I hear it, so I'm going to recap.
• 1:13:08
  And you. Okay, so we have sunlight, darkness,
• 1:13:16
  meal timing.
• 1:13:18
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, sure. Meal timing. So meal timing. I
• 1:13:21
  usually also include food because there are
• 1:13:25
  certain foods that actually have melatonin in
• 1:13:27
  them. So food based sources is kind of like
• 1:13:30
  supplemental melatonin. So there's the food based
• 1:13:33
  sources, there's the supplemental melatonin and
• 1:13:38
  then there's this one. So is that. Are we only at
• 1:13:43
  4? So maybe I should. Yeah.
• 1:13:45
  Meredith Oke: So there's temperature.
• 1:13:47
  Nikko Kennedy: Yep, temperature, temperature, darkness,
• 1:13:52
  sunlight. And then there's the food, and then
• 1:13:58
  there's the supplements, and then there's the
• 1:14:01
  microbiome. Microbiome produces melatonin. So
• 1:14:04
  when you're optimizing your microbiome health,
• 1:14:06
  which is on your skin as well as permeating your
• 1:14:09
  whole body, that also produces melatonin. And
• 1:14:13
  then I guess there are actually more. But if you
• 1:14:17
  are pregnant, your placenta also creates
• 1:14:19
  melatonin that goes into circulation for mama and
• 1:14:21
  baby. And then for babies, if they are
• 1:14:25
  breastfeeding, I guess we're at 8. But breast
• 1:14:30
  milk also contains melatonin.
• 1:14:34
  Meredith Oke: So. Amazing. Okay, so in terms of. Yeah, so the
• 1:14:38
  practical things, we want it. We want to eat in
• 1:14:42
  the morning and stop eating before it gets dark.
• 1:14:46
  Nikko Kennedy: And we want to be eating protein foods.
• 1:14:49
  Tryptophan is the precursor to melatonin. Right.
• 1:14:53
  And then you can look up lists of foods that have
• 1:14:55
  melatonin and decide which of those might or
• 1:14:57
  might not be appropriate for you there.
• 1:15:00
  Meredith Oke: I love that suggestion.
• 1:15:01
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 1:15:03
  Meredith Oke: What about movement and exercising?
• 1:15:06
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah, definitely. There are correlations there
• 1:15:08
  too. You know, movement generates. He movement
• 1:15:11
  stimulates. You know, anything that supports your
• 1:15:13
  circadian health is going to support your. Your
• 1:15:16
  melatonin production. Anything that supports
• 1:15:18
  mitochondrial health is going to support
• 1:15:19
  melatonin production. People always talk about
• 1:15:22
  mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell and it
• 1:15:24
  makes ATP. And it's like, that's a whole other
• 1:15:28
  topic. And people could go into the podcast
• 1:15:30
  archives to hear people who are dairy expert
• 1:15:34
  talking about that. But yeah, mitochondria also
• 1:15:37
  make melatonin. So anything that's helping your
• 1:15:41
  mitochondria be more healthy is also going to
• 1:15:43
  help with that. Another thing about melatonin is
• 1:15:46
  that it's inhibited by fluoride. So there are
• 1:15:53
  things that you can do and that would also
• 1:15:54
  probably be a whole other can of worms to get
• 1:15:57
  into. But, you know, for women who are pregnant,
• 1:16:00
  I'm always like, at least for this time, consider
• 1:16:03
  not getting any dental fluoride treatments and
• 1:16:05
  swapping out your fluoride toothpaste products
• 1:16:08
  and things, and being mindful of fluoride in your
• 1:16:11
  water just for the fact that it's. Is in
• 1:16:15
  pregnancy particularly, melatonin is so key to
• 1:16:18
  placental development, and placental development
• 1:16:21
  is so key to the pregnancy going well as a whole.
• 1:16:25
  So for that time, I'm always like, I don't. I
• 1:16:30
  don't really have many qualms about saying, like,
• 1:16:32
  for this phase of life, like, everything you can
• 1:16:34
  do to optimize melatonin is going to be
• 1:16:37
  beneficial for you and your baby. And that
• 1:16:39
  includes eliminating fluoride along with your
• 1:16:43
  artificial lights at night, artificial white and
• 1:16:47
  blue lights. So, yeah, but you're right. We
• 1:16:51
  didn't quite get to the end of that, and we
• 1:16:53
  actually discovered a couple more.
• 1:16:57
  Meredith Oke: We're in the flow. It's all flexible. Yeah, there
• 1:17:00
  are many things and we talked about a lot of
• 1:17:03
  them, and if you want to go deeper on any of
• 1:17:06
  them, go to Nico's substack. And I'm sure she has
• 1:17:09
  articles on.
• 1:17:10
  Nikko Kennedy: Every single one of these things. Totally. Yep.
• 1:17:13
  You can go in. There's a little search bar at the
• 1:17:15
  top, so that's kind of fun. You can plumb the
• 1:17:17
  search bar and then I'm also like super there.
• 1:17:20
  And for people who do upgrade to a paid
• 1:17:22
  subscription, it opens up a DM channel. So then
• 1:17:24
  you can just be like, hey, Nico, what do I need
• 1:17:27
  to read? Where do I find this? And then I can
• 1:17:29
  pull up the article for you. Yeah, and that's a
• 1:17:33
  really good way. And it's like super affordable
• 1:17:36
  way to get just like some little coaching and,
• 1:17:39
  you know, access to so many research papers and
• 1:17:42
  all that. So, yeah, would love to chat over
• 1:17:45
  there. It's fun.
• 1:17:46
  Meredith Oke: Perfect.
• 1:17:48
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 1:17:48
  Meredith Oke: So that's it. If you would like. Yeah. So if you
• 1:17:51
  want to follow up on any of the health related
• 1:17:54
  stuff we talk about, go to Nico Substack. I
• 1:17:57
  recommend being, you know, paying for the
• 1:17:59
  membership. It's a great group in there and Nico,
• 1:18:02
  as you've heard, is very knowledgeable and we
• 1:18:05
  didn't quite cover this, but Nico's like, like a
• 1:18:07
  research maven. She's director of research at the
• 1:18:11
  Institute of Applied Quantum Biology. She's
• 1:18:12
  really good at it. She can help you find pretty
• 1:18:15
  much whatever you need. She probably has it in
• 1:18:17
  her. Her bibliographies. Yeah. And then if you
• 1:18:21
  want the business coaching we were talking about,
• 1:18:23
  that's at expansioncircle IO or you can go to
• 1:18:27
  qpcpod.com and click on the little. The coaching
• 1:18:33
  thing in there.
• 1:18:36
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah.
• 1:18:36
  Meredith Oke: And Nico and I are both in there bringing our
• 1:18:39
  expertise to support new paradigm professionals
• 1:18:44
  in any capacity. So it doesn't really matter what
• 1:18:46
  you do if you align with all the stuff we've been
• 1:18:49
  talking about. We'd love to have you in there.
• 1:18:52
  Nikko Kennedy: Yes, definitely. It's been so much fun and I love
• 1:18:55
  chatting about all of this stuff and we've
• 1:18:57
  created a very nice, comfortable space to come in
• 1:19:02
  and talk and also do real transformative work.
• 1:19:07
  Meredith Oke: Yeah, no, it's really cool. I'm so impressed and
• 1:19:10
  proud of all of the people who've come through so
• 1:19:14
  far. They've made such amazing progress. Nico, I
• 1:19:17
  feel like we could talk for another two hours.
• 1:19:20
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah. But.
• 1:19:22
  Meredith Oke: I do have a time limit from my podcast producer
• 1:19:25
  on how long this podcast can be before he starts
• 1:19:28
  making more money.
• 1:19:32
  Nikko Kennedy: Yeah. Gotta optimize all the ins and all the outs.
• 1:19:35
  Meredith Oke: Yeah.
• 1:19:36
  Nikko Kennedy: So, yep, we can get together again another day.
• 1:19:40
  Meredith Oke: Yes, we will do that. Yes, we will do this. You
• 1:19:44
  know, stay tuned. Meredith and Nico's chats will
• 1:19:47
  continue.
• 1:19:48
  Nikko Kennedy: Yep. Thanks so much. It's always a pleasure to
• 1:19:50
  talk with you and go through these things. And I
• 1:19:52
  love that our listeners got to hear this little
• 1:19:55
  more, you know, intimate version of what our day
• 1:19:57
  to day lives look like. And you know, what we've
• 1:20:00
  been working on, you know, publicly and somewhat
• 1:20:03
  privately. So that was a great, great
• 1:20:06
  conversation. I'm excited to share it around too.
• 1:20:10
  So thank you.
• 1:20:12
  Meredith Oke: Thank you, Nico. See you all soon.
• 1:20:14
  Nikko Kennedy: Bye.