Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #65 - Optimizing Lawyer Efficiency: AI in the Legal Industry - A Conversation with Katie Carlson

Transcript

#65 - Optimizing Lawyer Efficiency: AI in the Legal Industry - A Conversation with Katie Carlson · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_01: It's definitely fortunate because there's a lot of bonuses to AI,
0:04
SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
0:04
SPEAKER_01: at the end of the day,
0:05
SPEAKER_01: it's definitely not replacing anybody.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: It's just making them more efficient.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: And for lawyers specifically,
0:11
SPEAKER_01: they can take that time back to take more cases,
0:15
SPEAKER_01: spend more time with their family,
0:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
0:18
SPEAKER_01: chase other dreams that they may have outside of the legal space,
0:21
SPEAKER_01: but yeah.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: Sharp Strategies, Sweet Success.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome.
0:39
This is Tiffany Swedensky and you're listening to Sharp
0:42
Strategies,
0:43
Sweet Success.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Today I am here with my guest, Katie Carlson from Faster Outcomes.
0:49
I'm pretty sure Katie and I met on LinkedIn where I tend to
0:53
spend a little bit of
0:53
SPEAKER_00: time and I'm sure she does too.
0:56
And I'm actually,
0:57
I think this is her and I's first like face-to-face meeting.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just getting to know her.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: So I'll let her
1:03
SPEAKER_00: do her introduction.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: So Katie, can I tell us a little bit about yourself?
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Katie Carlson, Director of Marketing here at Faster Outcomes.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Excited to be here.
1:13
I'm typically on the other end as I do all of the podcast
1:16
production for our
1:17
SPEAKER_01: podcast,
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Legal Keys.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely a fun change of speed.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: And going back a bit,
1:22
SPEAKER_01: we definitely got introduced through Ben Glass,
1:25
SPEAKER_01: but through the legal world,
1:27
SPEAKER_01: we had him on our podcast and then he was like,
1:29
SPEAKER_01: you should get connected with Tiffany type of deal.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: So
1:32
SPEAKER_01: But here we are, and it's a pleasure.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: A little bit about myself.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: I have been at Faster Outcomes for about a year now, coming up on a year.
1:40
I came from a previous marketing role that was actually not in
1:44
the legal space.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: It was in power sports.
1:46
So I did a mixture of some escalated customer service and then
1:51
a lot of marketing
1:52
SPEAKER_01: type of events and marketing.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: community engagement on social media and that kind of thing.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately,
1:58
I have a little bit of a personal connection to the legal world
2:02
from a dog bite and
2:03
SPEAKER_01: a really bad car accident,
2:05
SPEAKER_01: but I digress.
2:06
We are,
2:07
we're here and I'm looking forward to continuing the
2:10
conversation with you.
2:11
Yeah,
2:12
actually it came all flooding back to me because yeah,
2:14
we did get introduced through Ben.
2:16
And I remember we talked a little bit and talked about just
2:20
kind of the marketing
2:20
SPEAKER_00: that you're all are doing.
2:22
And it's actually not too often that like people reach out to
2:25
me about how do we
2:27
SPEAKER_00: talk to lawyers in this space?
2:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's always fun to have that type of meeting.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: So I,
2:32
SPEAKER_00: just so the listeners know,
2:34
but tell them a little bit about what Faster Outcomes is and
2:37
what you guys do.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: So to kind of go back to what Faster Outcomes is doing today,
2:43
SPEAKER_01: we recently pivoted into healthcare as well,
2:47
SPEAKER_01: but our primary focus is lawyers.
2:50
And so we have an AI platform that essentially streamlines a
2:53
lot of the mundane,
2:55
SPEAKER_01: repetitive tasks that lawyers do.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of vague, I get it.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: But to kind of put it into a nutshell, like
3:05
ChachiPT is an AI open source tool,
3:08
whereas ours is HIPAA compliant and SOC 2 compliant.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: And so everything that you're doing is basically your ChachiPT.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: It's a similar concept,
3:17
but everything is going to be protected and all of your
3:19
clients' information is
3:22
SPEAKER_01: obviously in this secure vault.
3:25
And so I can definitely expand if you'd like to know a little
3:28
bit more about our
3:29
SPEAKER_01: products,
3:29
but that kind of in a nutshell is what Faster Outcomes does and
3:33
AI is happening.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: It's definitely fortunate because there's a lot of bonuses to AI,
3:39
SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
3:39
SPEAKER_01: at the end of the day,
3:40
SPEAKER_01: it's definitely not replacing anybody.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: It's just making them more efficient.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: And for lawyers specifically, they can
3:47
take that time back to take more cases spend more time with
3:51
their family you know
3:53
chase other dreams that they may have outside of the legal
3:56
space but yeah yeah and
3:59
I talk a lot about AI on the podcast and I don't know if people
4:02
get bored with it
4:03
there are a few podcasts I listen to that when they bring up AI
4:06
I'm like oh my god
4:08
SPEAKER_00: But like,
4:08
SPEAKER_00: so you're kind of,
4:10
SPEAKER_00: you're a little bit new to the legal marketing space,
4:13
SPEAKER_00: like just getting to know it.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm kind of curious about your perspective.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Like what have you learned?
4:18
SPEAKER_00: And maybe if you can elaborate,
4:20
like how are we different than healthcare or something that
4:23
you've worked with in
4:23
SPEAKER_00: the past?
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: I think that more than anything,
4:29
SPEAKER_01: marketing is definitely a universal concept,
4:32
but there are these little niches that something isn't going to
4:36
speak to a lawyer
4:37
SPEAKER_01: the same way that it would somebody that's purchasing a power sport toy.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And so that's definitely a new vertical that I'm learning.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: But I think between
4:47
SPEAKER_01: And I've heard really good things about both of them.
4:48
Obviously,
4:49
being newer to the space,
4:50
we were doing all the research on good events to go to.
4:54
And two of the ones that I attended this year were Pilma and
4:58
the Great Legal Marketing Summit.
5:00
And I think that those were two of the best shows that I could
5:04
have gone to being
5:05
SPEAKER_01: my first year in the space.
5:07
I had some incredible conversations with people like Jay
5:10
Berkowitz,
5:11
Ben Glass.
5:13
all of those top names that have been around and in the space
5:15
for the longest time.
5:16
And so they've been awesome introducing our team and myself to
5:21
more people.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like the more conversations that I have, the more comfortable
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SPEAKER_01: I am feeling,
5:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
5:28
SPEAKER_01: regardless,
5:29
SPEAKER_01: at the end of the day,
5:30
I feel like I've been in the marketing space and the creative
5:34
lane for so long that
5:36
SPEAKER_01: it's kind of,
5:37
SPEAKER_01: in a sense,
5:37
SPEAKER_01: an expertise.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: But the more that I have these conversations,
5:40
the more that I can feel like I'm getting to the expertise that
5:44
you're probably at
5:46
SPEAKER_01: in legal marketing.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that
5:51
It's definitely a fine line that I'm still kind of trying to
5:55
understand of like,
5:57
SPEAKER_01: what speaks to lawyers better?
5:59
SPEAKER_01: Is it more copy or is it like short,
6:02
SPEAKER_01: concise,
6:02
little bullet points that aren't necessarily going to tell the
6:05
whole story,
6:06
but at least they got them engaged enough to reach out for a
6:09
conversation?
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SPEAKER_01: Or do they want to know everything in the most novel type of form?
6:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: I really don't.
6:18
And I think that's the sweet spot is that there really isn't a
6:21
right or wrong answer.
6:22
I think that it could be different for a personal injury lawyer
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than it is for a
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SPEAKER_01: family lawyer or vice versa.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So I don't really know.
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I think that you may know better than I do,
6:34
but I really don't necessarily think that it's
6:38
SPEAKER_01: that different than any other vertical,
6:40
but it's just understanding what speaks their love language and
6:44
like capitalizing
6:46
on that and sticking with like AD testing of like which one
6:50
actually sticks and
6:51
which one is actually never going to stick and they don't want
6:56
anything to do with
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SPEAKER_01: you type of vibe.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
7:02
SPEAKER_00: I guess like when I was younger and then in college,
7:04
SPEAKER_00: like I didn't know too many people like lawyers,
7:09
SPEAKER_00: like people I knew were pretty blue collar and stuff.
7:12
So like my mental image of what a lawyer was very much painted
7:16
by like TV and stuff.
7:18
And so it was pretty like eyeopening for me when I got into
7:22
like the Ben Glass
7:23
SPEAKER_00: universe and started meeting
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SPEAKER_00: the attorneys like within his orbit, I guess you'd say.
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SPEAKER_00: It was kind of shocking to me to realize that they're just normal people.
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SPEAKER_00: And at some point,
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because I kind of stepped into that with some web digital
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marketing knowledge,
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it also surprised me tremendously that I would know things that
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they didn't,
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SPEAKER_00: which you would expect their lawyers and I'm a marketer.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: And,
7:49
SPEAKER_00: but then all at the same stroke,
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there are a lot of lawyers who are really smart and know a lot
7:53
about marketing.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you have to be smart to know about marketing,
7:56
SPEAKER_00: but they're just really good at this stuff.
7:59
And also like you mentioned,
8:01
like everyone's a little bit different and that's my take too.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Like when I talk to attorneys,
8:06
SPEAKER_00: like I get the sense that they feel like other attorneys are like them,
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SPEAKER_00: but just the legal law firm business owner,
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SPEAKER_00: they're not a monolith.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: They're all so unique and different.
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SPEAKER_00: And as somebody who talks to,
8:20
SPEAKER_00: most of my attorneys are personal injury attorneys,
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SPEAKER_00: but I talk to a lot of personal injury attorneys.
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They're all so unique and they all have advice on how to deal
8:29
with other attorneys
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SPEAKER_00: or how to sell to other attorneys even.
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And sometimes they'll give advice that I just know from
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experience is not the best
8:38
SPEAKER_00: way to go for it.
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And that's kind of the great quagmire of marketing is that,
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you know,
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everyone's a consumer.
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Everyone experiences marketing through their own lens and feels
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like they know how
8:51
SPEAKER_00: other people might experience it.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: But that's not the case.
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SPEAKER_00: Like everyone is just so unique.
8:56
And,
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you know,
8:57
we tend to overestimate how much our experience as consumers
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gives us
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SPEAKER_00: as far as like education on marketing, if that makes sense.
9:07
It definitely like makes my mind go to several different areas
9:11
that like for the
9:12
SPEAKER_01: business aspect of it,
9:13
I kind of have an interesting take because my dad is in the
9:17
construction space and
9:18
SPEAKER_01: they don't do a ton of marketing whatsoever,
9:20
SPEAKER_01: but they're a really successful business.
9:22
They've been in business for 55 years and they are widely known
9:26
across the Midwest
9:27
SPEAKER_01: area and mainly Minnesota.
9:30
But they don't really do a ton of marketing and it never made
9:33
sense to me how that worked.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: But like,
9:35
because they started that organic way of how my grandpa started
9:40
the business back
9:41
SPEAKER_01: in the day,
9:42
SPEAKER_01: it started by getting clients door knocking.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: So before any of like actual marketing tools came about, it's just
9:49
wild to think about how much we've evolved over time and not to
9:54
go into that story further.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: Just like in general,
9:56
SPEAKER_01: it's crazy that the more we evolve in,
10:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
10:01
SPEAKER_01: it's 2025 and the quicker that like these lawyers and these,
10:05
SPEAKER_01: these business professionals can adapt and adopt the technology and
10:10
like the more that they're going to thrive in their business
10:14
because their
10:15
SPEAKER_01: understanding as a business owner,
10:17
this is what others are doing and we may fall behind if we
10:21
don't adopt it.
10:22
And so I think that's an interesting take that I don't know
10:26
that a lot of lawyers
10:27
SPEAKER_01: think of it as a business or as a business owner.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: in the aspect of I want my business to thrive after I'm gone.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that the way that they put in those,
10:38
or they implement these different tactics and tools and set
10:43
their team up for
10:43
success after they're gone is definitely a concept that not
10:47
everybody's thinking
10:48
SPEAKER_01: about.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: But I think because of the AI age,
10:51
SPEAKER_01: it's making them have that realization that,
10:54
SPEAKER_01: wow,
10:54
we should probably be digitizing things because the filing
10:58
cabinet is definitely
10:59
SPEAKER_01: going away.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know,
11:02
SPEAKER_01: it definitely brings up a lot of different topics,
11:04
SPEAKER_01: but that's kind of my take as far as adopting tools goes.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: And in my experience,
11:12
SPEAKER_00: cause I've mostly worked in legal marketing,
11:14
but also I spent a few years as a freelancer and I worked for
11:17
as a freelancer,
11:18
SPEAKER_00: just a variety,
11:19
SPEAKER_00: like a smattering of different businesses.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And the stuff that I learned as a freelancer.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Like digital marketing wise,
11:28
SPEAKER_00: like I'll hear from an attorney,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: oh,
11:30
SPEAKER_00: did you hear about this new thing?
11:33
And I have to like bite my tongue and be like,
11:34
yeah,
11:35
it's super new and cool.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: But it's totally new.
11:40
Yep.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if it's just a legal industry in general,
11:46
or maybe just the nature of small businesses being kind of slow
11:51
to adapt to like
11:52
SPEAKER_00: new technologies and
11:54
SPEAKER_00: But like,
11:55
SPEAKER_00: even if you don't include AI,
11:57
SPEAKER_00: like if,
11:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:58
SPEAKER_00: HRGBT never launched and we're not talking about LLMs right now,
12:02
SPEAKER_00: there's still so much technology out there,
12:05
SPEAKER_00: marketing and otherwise,
12:07
SPEAKER_00: that law firms still haven't adopted.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of crazy to think about.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, wow, you're still using server-based
12:16
SPEAKER_00: case management system,
12:18
SPEAKER_00: you're not on the cloud yet,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: or wow,
12:20
you don't have a two-factor authentication set up for your
12:24
internal logins.
12:25
That is horribly insecure,
12:27
like not well insecure in the not secure sense.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: And two-factor authentication is very annoying,
12:35
SPEAKER_00: but it's critical and protecting like a whole bunch of stuff.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going off on a tangent,
12:41
SPEAKER_00: but I think when law firms think of like being hacked,
12:44
they think of somebody at their computer typing code and
12:47
rapidly combating your
12:48
SPEAKER_00: systems.
12:49
SPEAKER_00: But that's not truly what hacking is.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Hacking is like social engineering.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: It's phishing attacks.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: It's scammy text messages.
12:58
It's getting people to click on the wrong thing and downloading
13:01
a program on their
13:01
SPEAKER_00: browser and capturing their password.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: And...
13:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
13:06
SPEAKER_00: like,
13:06
SPEAKER_00: I just feel like there's this huge,
13:09
still this huge technology gap between firms and then stuff I
13:13
was implementing in
13:14
SPEAKER_00: other businesses.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: And I said, but here I went talking a whole lot.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: To that point.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
13:20
SPEAKER_01: I guess that brings up a question for you,
13:23
SPEAKER_01: like the law firms that you work with,
13:26
SPEAKER_01: how much are they using technology?
13:28
SPEAKER_01: And if they aren't using technology, are you trying to
13:32
SPEAKER_01: push them to start using it?
13:33
SPEAKER_01: Or is that something that you're okay with the old school vibes?
13:38
So every law firm I start out with,
13:41
we're pretty much redoing their integrations.
13:44
Like I've not yet started working with a firm or have consulted
13:48
with a firm that has
13:51
Seamless integrations where all of their forms or website forms
13:56
are pushing to
13:57
SPEAKER_00: their intake dashboard.
13:59
And a lot of law firms are still tracking intakes by like phone
14:03
calls and trust.
14:05
Like they're just trusting their intake team to report on every
14:09
call that they took
14:10
SPEAKER_00: and to classify it accurately.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: And every law firm I start with, we're starting with those systems.
14:17
Very rarely am I stepping into a relationship where they have
14:20
all of that flushed out perfectly.
14:22
And so I know there's a technology gap because the firms that
14:26
are killing it,
14:27
SPEAKER_00: that's how their systems are.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: A lead comes in, it is in your intake dashboard.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: And if your intake team is off duty,
14:34
it's being forwarded to an outside call service that'll follow
14:36
up with it.
14:38
And you're not going to beat that if you don't have these
14:40
systems and a lot of them
14:41
SPEAKER_00: don't have these systems.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fair take.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think,
14:46
SPEAKER_01: and that's funny that you say that too,
14:47
SPEAKER_01: because when I first started roughly a year ago,
14:51
I kind of thought that the adoption was a bit further than it
14:54
actually is.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a bit refreshing in a sense as well,
14:58
SPEAKER_01: because as much as it's great,
15:00
SPEAKER_01: the technology is great.
15:02
It's like,
15:02
all right,
15:02
we also should take things like one thing at a time and
15:05
So successful implementation at a firm is definitely not going
15:10
to do well if it's
15:11
SPEAKER_01: rushed and you have to do it in a systematic way,
15:14
or obviously it's going to fail or end up being essentially a
15:20
waste of money.
15:21
And so I think that's something that was very interesting to me
15:25
when I entered the
15:26
space that adoption with AI in general and maybe technology
15:30
like case management is
15:32
SPEAKER_01: not as far along as I expected it to be,
15:35
SPEAKER_01: which is it could be looked at as a good or bad thing.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: But I think that regardless,
15:41
SPEAKER_01: at the end of the day,
15:42
we're all business people and we are doing what's good for the
15:45
business and looking
15:47
SPEAKER_01: out for the greater good of the business.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: So with AI tools in particular,
15:54
SPEAKER_00: there's something kind of interesting happening,
15:56
SPEAKER_00: but a lot of,
15:58
SPEAKER_00: it's either been pitched to me as something for me to build,
16:01
SPEAKER_00: or I've heard other businesses trying to build their own AI solutions,
16:05
SPEAKER_00: like their own internal chatbot.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit about that?
16:09
SPEAKER_00: Like,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: is it how,
16:11
SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of AI systems that I use that I build for myself,
16:14
SPEAKER_00: but they're not like my own custom,
16:17
SPEAKER_00: some of them are on my own GPTs,
16:19
SPEAKER_00: but they're not like
16:21
SPEAKER_00: a replacement for an AI tool that you might buy.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Talk a little bit about that.
16:30
Are small law firms really going to be able to build for
16:32
themselves like their own
16:34
SPEAKER_00: AI solutions or is that just kind of a pipe dream?
16:39
SPEAKER_01: Personally,
16:40
I guess I can't speak to the development side of it because
16:43
developers are a whole
16:44
SPEAKER_01: different breed compared to me.
16:46
Like they can speak and know the internet a lot better than a
16:50
lot of people do.
16:50
I don't know what it would take to start like your own in a
16:55
small law firm.
16:56
But I do know that larger law firms like Morgan & Morgan have
17:00
their own proprietary LLM.
17:03
that they're definitely not going to be adopting any sort of
17:06
the AI tools that are
17:08
SPEAKER_01: out there right now that
17:09
SPEAKER_01: my competitors and I offer.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: They have their own thing.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: And if anything,
17:14
they're trying to shoo all of the salespeople away because
17:18
they've got their own
17:19
SPEAKER_01: deal.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: And I thought that was pretty cool, honestly, because it makes sense.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: They're a massive law firm.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Why wouldn't you just keep it all in-house?
17:28
SPEAKER_01: But I think to the point of small law firms,
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I think they're the easiest to implement outside of their own law firm.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: So if they're purchasing...
17:39
SPEAKER_01: For example,
17:39
SPEAKER_01: faster outcomes,
17:40
I think that their implementation can be extremely successful
17:44
because they're so
17:45
SPEAKER_01: small.
17:46
And it gives that one-on-one training aspect that you can
17:50
actually onboard them and
17:53
SPEAKER_01: in the most successful way,
17:54
SPEAKER_01: make it make sense from the beginning because if it's a smaller team.
18:00
And that's one thing that we've learned is that the larger AM
18:04
law firms are having
18:05
SPEAKER_01: a harder time implementing,
18:07
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
18:07
SPEAKER_01: because they have way too many people to train.
18:11
And I think there's a training aspect to it all that definitely
18:15
needs to happen because
18:18
SPEAKER_01: When you're putting things into an open source tool,
18:21
I don't know that they necessarily are familiar with how much
18:26
those AI agents are
18:27
SPEAKER_01: learning off of their information.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: And if it's confidential client information, obviously a no-no.
18:34
So I think that there's definitely some training that could
18:37
happen for the larger law firms.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, across the board, if you aren't familiar with what it can do,
18:44
SPEAKER_01: you should take a step back to understand it.
18:47
And it's funny because when we talk to people that have never
18:50
used things like AI
18:51
SPEAKER_01: before or ChatGBT,
18:53
SPEAKER_01: we're like,
18:53
SPEAKER_01: well,
18:53
just go write a poem or write a recipe for dinner or just like
18:58
start small and then
18:59
understand the capabilities of it and kind of how you can
19:03
utilize it and amplify
19:06
SPEAKER_01: your own skills.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: I want to back up because you talked about Morgan and Morgan's LLM.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know how much you know about that.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't really know anything about it.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: I want to know more.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Like when somebody told me about it, I'm like, wait, really?
19:21
SPEAKER_01: That's actually kind of cool.
19:22
Not that it's any of my business,
19:24
but it's just kind of fascinating concept.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Is it customer facing or is it just internal?
19:32
SPEAKER_01: In my understanding, it's just internal.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: So I guess that makes a little bit of sense, like something internally.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Cause my husband,
19:40
SPEAKER_00: he works for a company and I gotta be big on the details,
19:43
SPEAKER_00: but they have their own internal LLM because they have to.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: It's it's security, right?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: And I can't just use chat GPT for this.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: And it makes sense for law firms.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: Like you, you need that kind of security as well.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: And I guess with Morgan and Morgan,
19:58
SPEAKER_00: you certainly have the bandwidth or the budget to hire developers.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: You can outsource the whole thing to an expert team.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: And there are probably a ton of them.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: And you just send them the documentation that team needs.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: They train an LLM and instruct it on certain guidelines.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: That's certainly like a doable process.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's very accessible.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: It's a very accessible kind of development,
20:24
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
20:25
because there are a lot of people who are happy to train like
20:28
GPTs for you.
20:30
But it's a question of like,
20:32
is it accessible for the small business owner?
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Should they do this themselves or should they just buy into an AI tool?
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And these days,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: like,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: building automated systems is like easy to do,
20:49
SPEAKER_00: but like then you have to maintain it.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: And the maintenance part is hard.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to build AI systems that are complex,
20:59
you have to basically maintain a connection with a developer
21:03
who can troubleshoot
21:03
SPEAKER_00: it.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the part that people just kind of,
21:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: if it's built and it's built right,
21:09
SPEAKER_00: it'll never break.
21:10
But unfortunately that's not,
21:11
that's not the nature of online technologies.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And my instincts tell me that,
21:17
SPEAKER_01: and I could be way off with this,
21:18
SPEAKER_01: my instincts tell me that maybe they actually,
21:21
like Morgan and Morgan probably have in-house developers and
21:24
technology team like a
21:25
SPEAKER_01: CTO that are doing all of those things.
21:27
That would probably make the most sense given that they have so
21:30
much data and
21:32
SPEAKER_01: information that obviously they don't want leaked.
21:36
And so that's kind of where my mind went is they most likely
21:40
have like a whole
21:41
SPEAKER_01: technology team because they can afford it.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: So,
21:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
21:45
SPEAKER_01: that would make the most sense to me,
21:47
but I guess it would be interesting to know if they were
21:51
outsourcing that kind of
21:52
SPEAKER_01: thing.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, for small businesses, that's the question.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you bring in house?
21:59
SPEAKER_00: What do you outsource?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't do it that much,
22:03
SPEAKER_00: like it makes more sense to outsource like podcasts,
22:05
SPEAKER_00: for example,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: like you,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: you don't,
22:08
SPEAKER_00: if you have one single podcast,
22:10
SPEAKER_00: you don't need one whole full-time podcast editor unless you do it a lot.
22:15
You can hire a company that'll edit all your podcasts and post
22:19
them for a third of
22:20
SPEAKER_00: the amount,
22:21
SPEAKER_00: maybe less.
22:22
And so it's a question of like,
22:26
what do you want the security of having like
22:29
SPEAKER_00: somebody who you pay less,
22:32
SPEAKER_00: who has more experience,
22:33
SPEAKER_00: who works with a bunch of different clients on a similar task,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: or what do you want to have like full-time in-house?
22:40
SPEAKER_00: That's the question for a lot of business owners, I guess.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: And kind of to the point of the small law firms from my own take,
22:47
SPEAKER_01: and obviously everybody's different.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how long the law firm's been around or how,
22:52
SPEAKER_01: say there's family members that are taking it over.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: So it makes sense to do it in-house if you're a small firm.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: But I think that
22:59
SPEAKER_01: If you're a larger firm,
23:00
it makes more sense to do it in-house because you can see the
23:03
ROI that will come
23:05
SPEAKER_01: down the line.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you're a smaller firm,
23:07
I think there's a greater chance that the adoption could either
23:12
fall through the
23:13
cracks or you lose one person and that you're not able to focus
23:18
on the fact that
23:18
SPEAKER_01: you're trying to build this tool.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: So I could just see a lot of ways that it could go downhill.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: But I also see that it could probably work as well.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: It kind of just depends on who's running the business and how,
23:31
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
23:31
SPEAKER_01: determined they are to make it a successful in-house LLM.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: I guess I haven't heard of any small firms making their own tool yet.
23:41
But I think if you have the money to put up front to hire
23:46
developers that are very
23:47
SPEAKER_01: expensive,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: I've heard numbers of
23:49
SPEAKER_01: what those type of developers get paid.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's a little bit insane.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: It's awesome, but it's insane.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to have the budget for it.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: And so if you're able to spend that money upfront,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: by all means,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: I think it could be an advantage point.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't,
24:04
I think you can see the ROI by outsourcing because you're not
24:07
putting in all of
24:08
SPEAKER_01: that money to hire a developer.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Well,
24:12
SPEAKER_00: so this is an extreme example,
24:14
but like Facebook went on a developer hiring spree over the
24:17
summer because they're
24:18
SPEAKER_00: developing their own LLM.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, of course they are.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And they spent...
24:25
SPEAKER_00: Like 1 million, over a million dollars just to hire one developer.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: Like that was their sign on bonus or something.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: And I might be exaggerating.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: It's a known story.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I believe it.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: I've heard that.
24:37
I've heard of somebody that I know personally that makes half a
24:40
million dollars a year.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, I mean, wow, that's amazing.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: But how did you get to that point?
24:46
SPEAKER_01: And my,
24:48
one of my coworkers brought up the point of like junior
24:52
developers that are now
24:53
SPEAKER_01: graduating.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: how do you like AI kind of takes over, like AI can write code now.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: And so AI kind of takes over that junior developer role.
25:04
And so now there's this weird gap of these higher end
25:08
developers that have been in
25:10
SPEAKER_01: the space since before a lot of this took off.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know,
25:15
SPEAKER_01: I sure hope that we can keep things human enough that we,
25:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't ever want all jobs to get taken over because I think we,
25:23
SPEAKER_01: we all need the human aspect to these things.
25:25
And that is one thing that we definitely stress at Faster
25:28
Outcomes is keeping it
25:29
SPEAKER_01: human as possible.
25:30
Like you're just becoming a more powerful human by utilizing
25:35
the tools in the correct way.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean.
25:40
I'm hearing more and more and I love AI tools and I love
25:43
adopting AI tools,
25:45
SPEAKER_00: but like this is an example from marketer standpoint.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: I work with a lot of marketers who are getting started in their career,
25:53
like zero to five years of experience and in legal marketing or
25:57
just in general.
25:59
And so I'm working with a lot of junior marketers and I'm
26:02
instructing a lot of
26:03
SPEAKER_00: junior marketers to use chat GBT,
26:06
SPEAKER_00: but like
26:08
SPEAKER_00: you know, that's not enough.
26:09
Like if I ask somebody to use ChagyBT to write marketing copy
26:14
and they just send me
26:14
SPEAKER_00: the output without editing it,
26:17
SPEAKER_00: I know I can read and tell.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: And I go back to them and say like,
26:21
SPEAKER_00: look,
26:22
SPEAKER_00: this is if ChagyBT didn't exist and you sent me this as a first draft,
26:27
SPEAKER_00: I would have been so happy.
26:29
But I know this isn't your first draft and we need to take it
26:34
from first draft to final draft.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: And that
26:37
SPEAKER_00: That bridge is human.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, that final draft bridge is human.
26:43
And I talk about this sometimes,
26:45
not a lot,
26:45
but I'm part of a writer's group.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: And it is very obvious when a new writer comes into the group,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: presents their work,
26:53
SPEAKER_00: and it's entirely or even partially AI.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Us older writers,
26:57
SPEAKER_00: because I fit in that category of older writer at this point,
27:00
SPEAKER_00: we were writing from before CHAT-GBT.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: We saw what a real first-time person's work looked like.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: And so we can tell,
27:08
and also the tells of what CHAT-GBT writing is are just so
27:12
obvious that it's
27:13
SPEAKER_00: painful.
27:15
100% agree and I think that's one thing that sometimes it
27:17
obviously takes me longer
27:19
but when I'm going back and forth with chat of like I'll put in
27:22
here's what I want
27:23
to say in my own tone and it'll kind of clean up a couple of
27:26
this change some
27:27
adjectives and like make things a little and I'm like oh I
27:30
didn't even think of
27:30
that that sounds awesome and so when you can like just put it
27:34
in there to like
27:34
clean it up and make it sound a little sharper that's like the
27:37
perfect little final
27:38
SPEAKER_01: touch but I completely agree that you can tell when something's been
27:42
SPEAKER_01: written by ChatGPT to the point that it,
27:45
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
27:46
SPEAKER_01: it doesn't sound,
27:47
SPEAKER_01: you can tell,
27:48
SPEAKER_01: and it's not like you're transacting with a human.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think that goes for developers as well,
27:55
SPEAKER_00: because I've built a PC before,
27:58
SPEAKER_00: but I did use ChatGPT to walk me through building this PC,
28:02
SPEAKER_00: which I'm gesturing to off camera.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Expand on that a little bit.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: I've always been kind of a technical person.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: I built my first PC back in college when it was like,
28:14
SPEAKER_00: I just scrap parts that I sourced off like Facebook and stuff.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:18
This is my first build or it's just like all of the stuff was
28:21
new and kind of nice.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: And so I just.
28:24
had that little bit of experience with PC building enough to be
28:27
to go through
28:28
SPEAKER_00: something like this.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: But I also use ChagiBT to help me out.
28:33
It's just like,
28:33
okay,
28:33
I did this like,
28:35
and I knew enough to know when it was wrong.
28:40
And it was wrong often enough that it's kind of scary for the
28:43
stuff that we also,
28:44
SPEAKER_00: I think about,
28:45
SPEAKER_00: I also use Chow TPT for.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, wow, this stuff, Chow TPT is great.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: And it certainly helped me through a few problems,
28:54
but there are also problems that I got to that I had to go to
28:57
Google or I had to
28:58
find a YouTube video or I had to sit there at the manual and
29:01
like for a while.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: And so when people talk about like,
29:06
SPEAKER_00: You got to be careful.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: It hallucinates.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Now,
29:08
SPEAKER_00: I think it's easy to kind of like,
29:09
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
29:09
SPEAKER_00: I know it hallucinates sometimes,
29:11
SPEAKER_00: but the problem is it hallucinates convincingly.
29:14
And the Chachi BT was trying to have me short out my
29:20
motherboard at some point.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like, touch a metal thing to these two connectors.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, hold up.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: That's an extreme step for what I'm experiencing.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: And eventually I figured out I didn't need to do that.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: that wouldn't have been dangerous.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Like it wouldn't have killed my PC or anything,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: but it was just like,
29:35
SPEAKER_00: okay,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: I think we're going to step six when we need to go back to step two.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't have known that otherwise, you know?
29:42
SPEAKER_01: And I know what you're talking about when it gives you that weird answer,
29:46
SPEAKER_01: but at least you actually read the answer and realized,
29:48
SPEAKER_01: wait...
29:49
Let me take a step back because that's not the way that I knew
29:52
how to do that.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And, or it just sounds goofy.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: And so then I,
29:56
SPEAKER_01: in that aspect,
29:57
SPEAKER_01: if my thing hallucinated like that,
29:59
SPEAKER_01: just start a new chat and be like,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: all right,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: let's start from square one because it doesn't even make any sense.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
30:07
SPEAKER_00: the chat limit,
30:08
SPEAKER_00: cause I was telling my husband about this,
30:10
SPEAKER_00: like I have to after usually like three or four good responses,
30:15
SPEAKER_00: it starts getting weird.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: Like it starts forgetting things we've talked about previously.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: I have to remind it.
30:21
And I believe they shorten the memory limit of it,
30:24
which is why like I build a lot of GPTs.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people get a little overzealous.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'm going to upload all of our company documentation to it.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's, it can't hold all of that in its memory, like
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Right,
30:36
SPEAKER_01: and if you want it to review the information to its entirety,
30:41
SPEAKER_01: it's not going to do a good job of it if you're putting in way too much,
30:44
SPEAKER_01: like the way that you put things in there.
30:46
There's a systematic way that you should be going about how
30:50
you're dealing with
30:51
large files because it's not going to give you a correct input
30:54
or review all of it
30:57
SPEAKER_01: in the first place.
30:59
And I've done this before where I've sent it a link and it took
31:02
my own writing.
31:03
Like I've sent it a link to something I wrote and I've said,
31:06
review it,
31:07
like critique it.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: And its response,
31:11
SPEAKER_00: it starts giving me critique and I'm reading it and I'm like,
31:13
SPEAKER_00: that doesn't apply to what I wrote.
31:16
And then I asked,
31:17
I'm like,
31:18
this doesn't,
31:19
you're giving me critique for things I didn't write.
31:22
And then it was like,
31:23
oh yeah,
31:23
I couldn't actually visit the link you provided.
31:25
And I'm like,
31:26
why didn't you just say,
31:28
why didn't you just say I can't visit it?
31:30
SPEAKER_00: But it gave me like three paragraphs of feedback for an imaginary article
31:37
and it's just kind of funny it's kind of funny the way it works
31:39
like that it really
31:40
is and it's strange when you make the realization that you
31:46
think it's smarter than
31:47
it actually is and then you do something like that and you're
31:50
like well wait if
31:51
you're so smart and all of these things like you said why
31:54
didn't you just let me
31:55
SPEAKER_01: know that you weren't able to click the link oh it's that's why like
32:02
SPEAKER_00: education about these technologies is really paramount.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Like why they're extraordinarily useful, extraordinary.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: Like every day I use AI, it's ridiculous.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: But like,
32:14
SPEAKER_00: also it's important to understand like,
32:18
SPEAKER_00: not how it works,
32:19
SPEAKER_00: but like the best ways to use it and where it's like limitations are.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: And I hope
32:26
SPEAKER_00: My political leanings are very middle,
32:28
SPEAKER_00: but I do listen to Joe Rogan,
32:30
SPEAKER_00: not as much anymore though,
32:31
SPEAKER_00: because he keeps talking about how AI is like a digital God or something.
32:35
And every time I hear him say that,
32:37
oh my gosh,
32:38
like I just hate it so bad.
32:39
Cause he's like,
32:40
he's talking about the singularity when we're discussing LLMs,
32:44
right?
32:45
And I think it's important to understand that these
32:48
technologies are not the
32:50
SPEAKER_00: singularity,
32:50
SPEAKER_00: like that we're not dealing with a digital God yet.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: It is not sentient.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: And,
32:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:57
SPEAKER_00: listening to somebody like Joe Rogan,
32:59
SPEAKER_00: like full heartedly believe what he is saying.
33:02
It just inspires me to go out there and try to educate people
33:05
like chill out.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not that it's still really cool, but anyway.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no kidding.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Like maybe we could be there in like 2075,
33:14
SPEAKER_01: but we are not there right now and we don't have to be there right now.
33:18
If we're trying to keep people employed,
33:20
obviously we want there to be the human aspect.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, no, technology is not God.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: However,
33:26
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
33:27
it's a great tool on the tool belt if you know how to use it
33:30
correctly and you're
33:31
SPEAKER_01: educated about how things can go wrong,
33:33
SPEAKER_01: how it can hallucinate,
33:35
SPEAKER_01: how you can prompt it or train it better.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: So I...
33:40
SPEAKER_01: If you actually do that, try to go out there and train people.
33:43
I applaud you for that because it takes a certain type of
33:45
patience to try to teach
33:47
SPEAKER_01: somebody technology that doesn't even know how to open an email.
33:51
Unfortunately,
33:52
I feel like that kind of AI education is not being
33:54
well-received right now.
33:56
I'm waiting for public opinion to kind of chill because if I go
34:00
out and tell a
34:00
SPEAKER_00: business owner who's really,
34:02
really excited about AI that there are limitations and maybe
34:06
its responses aren't
34:07
SPEAKER_00: as sophisticated as you think they are,
34:10
SPEAKER_00: They kind of turn off.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: They're just like, shut up, Tiffany.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: You just don't like it for some reason.
34:14
But I'm starting to see people kind of come around to this fact
34:19
that AI is
34:20
fantastic and it's an incredible tool and it's made my life
34:23
like 20,000 times
34:24
SPEAKER_00: easier in a lot of respects,
34:26
SPEAKER_00: but like,
34:27
SPEAKER_00: it's not the singularity,
34:28
SPEAKER_00: like it's not God.
34:29
And it's certainly at this point can't outdo like human
34:34
creativity or just like
34:36
SPEAKER_00: human critical thinking.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: And to say it to believe it can is kind of dangerous.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to keep talking.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: No.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: And I agree with that a hundred percent.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you cannot go off of what your chat.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: There was a,
34:50
SPEAKER_01: and not to be dark,
34:51
SPEAKER_01: but there was a,
34:52
a really bad story within chat GPT where this young person was
34:58
saying things in and
34:59
SPEAKER_01: the chat GPT told them to hurt himself.
35:01
And it's just like,
35:02
that's a different thing that you don't trust it to that
35:05
extent.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Like that is not your therapist.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I don't know.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: It's one of those education things that what do you do?
35:13
SPEAKER_00: We're a little over on time, so I got to wrap up really quick.
35:16
But the funniest advice I've gotten to get better responses out
35:19
of chat GPT is to
35:20
SPEAKER_00: act like you're desperate.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: So to throw something in there, like, please, my job is on the line.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: I need a great response.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: It'll think longer,
35:28
SPEAKER_00: literally,
35:29
SPEAKER_00: and it'll give you a more complex response,
35:32
SPEAKER_00: which I just thought was kind of hilarious.
35:34
But Katie,
35:35
where do you want people to look you up to learn more about
35:37
you?
35:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
35:39
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: If you want to come check out the Legal Keys podcast,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: we'd love to have you on if you're interested in the AI space.
35:47
We talk business,
35:47
we talk law,
35:48
we're easing our way into the healthcare space as well.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: So Legal Keys podcast,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: if you want to connect on LinkedIn,
35:54
Katie Carlson at Faster Outcomes and all of our socials are
35:57
Faster Outcomes.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Katie, for being a guest and coming on today.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Really appreciate it.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: See everyone next time.