Latest / Nourished Fertility / Men Need to Nourish Their Bodies for Sperm Quality and Fertility, Too! with Dr. Kelsey Duncan, ND

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Men Need to Nourish Their Bodies for Sperm Quality and Fertility, Too! with Dr. Kelsey Duncan, ND · Nourished Fertility

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Welcome back y'all to the Nourishing Women Podcast, your go-to podcast to
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get your peer back and get pregnant.
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I'm your host, Victoria Myers, peer recovery specialist, fertility,
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dietician, and owner of the virtual coaching practice, nourishing
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Minds Nutrition, where we work.
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Together to restore your fertility today.
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I am so excited to share with you this really special episode with
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guest expert Dr. Kelsey Duncan.
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She's a naturopathic doctor and she focuses on, uh, such a incredibly.
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Unique need in the fertility space, which is a whole couple approach, so
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that you can optimize your fertility and replace overwhelm and frustration
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with instead, excitement, hope and joy.
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And I think what's so special about Kelsey is she knows literally everything
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there is to know about fertility.
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However, she makes it very easy to digest and easy to understand.
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And.
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What we focus on in today's episode, what I'm hoping you'll do too is give
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this to your husband to listen to.
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This is for your husband or partner today.
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I want him to walk away understanding why it's so important for him to properly
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nourish his body for fertility too.
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And you know what he does, the habits and the lifestyle he leads also impacts his
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sperm quality, therefore his fertility.
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And you know, you are making so many changes.
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You were.
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Changing basically everything about who you are in your life.
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You identify as a healthy person who you know eats perfectly and exercises
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daily, and to make all these changes to work also in your perfectionism
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and your type A personality and all these things that lead to your stress,
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which then impacts your fertility.
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It's a lot and I think it's only fair that we say to our husbands
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or partners like, Hey, I want you to join me in this journey.
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My version of nourishing my body for fertility is making sure that I'm giving
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my body the wrist and safety it needs.
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But you also have very specific things you can do that are very
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achievable and attainable to also do the same for your sperm quality.
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That way we can get pregnant with ease.
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You and your husband are gonna learn all about that in today's episode.
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So without further ado, let's jump into this guest expert
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episode with Dr. Kelsey Duncan.
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Hello Kelsey, welcome to the podcast.
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I am so happy you're here with me today.
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I am so excited to be here.
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I had the honor and privilege of being on your podcast a few weeks ago, and now
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we're here today on mine and we're gonna have like the funnest conversation ever.
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In fact, this is the first time they're ever gonna hear this topic before.
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Say like, you're gonna be our like expert guest on this conversation.
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Are you ready?
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This is my prob. I mean, I talk a lot about fertility, but this is
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actually probably one of my most favorite conversations, so yes.
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Oh, wonderful.
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But I'm so glad I picked you to have this conversation.
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That's serendipitous.
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Okay.
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Let's just start by, by sharing with the listeners who you are and the work you do.
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Yeah, so I am Kelsey Duncan, Dr. Kelsey Duncan.
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I am a naturopathic doctor.
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I practice in Ontario, but I'm also the founder of a program called
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the Fertility Confidence Method.
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So we help couples using a whole body, whole couple approach to
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optimize their chances of conceiving.
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Through all walks of their fertility journey.
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So we work with women and couples who are just starting out and are on the
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more proactive side and couples who have been at this for multiple years,
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um, in the medicine medical community doing assistive reproductive technology.
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I-V-F-I-U-I medicated cycles and, and everywhere.
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In between.
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Um, I'm also a mom myself.
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I have two little kiddos.
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My son is about to turn nine.
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She is like, hard to think about and my daughter just turned six.
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And so, uh, we're in the thick of summer vacation.
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So this is when, you know, we get to spend extra time together and mom gets to.
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Work with the pitter patter of, of little footsteps above.
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But we spend lots of time at the cottage, at the lake together, out
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hiking, enjoying life and, and yeah, so when I'm not working with, with
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my favorite people, I'm with my other favorite people and my wonderful family.
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I feel like the exact same way as you're sharing this, I'm
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like visualizing my own life.
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It's like I get to sit it with my wonderful family and then my work.
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I know not everyone loves their job, but I genuinely mean that.
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When I say that I, it is such an honor to do this work for a living and I just feel.
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So incredibly lucky every day to be like, I, I actually love all of this.
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This is wonderful.
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Yeah, totally.
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So you talking about your, your, your personal life makes me wonder, do
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you, did you get into fertility work because of your own personal journey?
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Let's actually start there and then we'll go get into Mel and fertility.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so I had a bit of a different journey compared to
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I think what most people like view their story into this work.
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And, and I actually shared this on, I, I host an office hour inside my program.
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So I was on that right before I popped into here.
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And we were talking about that part of my story where, um, it started with me
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having really horrible cystic acne as most young teenage women do, and doing.
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All the things that the doctor gave me, which was basically just
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various forms of birth control.
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Um, and coming to a point of trying to have an IUD inserted and I spent
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about 45 minutes on the table.
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I will not give all of the gory details, but it was a very traumatizing
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experience, um, with a very non.
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Sympathetic or empathetic woman doing the procedure who after 45
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minutes of causing me, which if you haven't had to try to have a, if
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you haven't had an IUD insertion before, like it's not really the most.
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Fun inert experience.
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So to be like subjected to this were, well, it was,
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should have taken five minutes.
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And so it was very, I was like, this cannot be normal.
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Um, she basically told me that my uterus was a funny shape and in the wrong place.
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I couldn't get the IUD because she couldn't insert it and that I was likely
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going to really struggle to get pregnant.
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And here's another prescription for a birth control that I had
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actually already tried and, and just left me there in this room.
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And I was like, what?
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Just.
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Happened to me, and so I was only 22.
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I was young.
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It wasn't something that was like high on my list of things.
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In fact, I'll, I'm very open with sharing at that point.
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I didn't even think I really wanted children.
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Um.
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But it was like a really turning pivotal moment for me.
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Once I kind of like had my few months of wallowing of like, oh,
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woe is me, you know, I am barren.
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I didn't even, at that point, I didn't even understand what any of that meant.
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I was just, all I heard was, you will not get pregnant.
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That was basically all I heard, and, and pretty much all she
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said, there was no explanation.
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There was no.
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This is what happened and this is why, and let's do this testing
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and figure out what's not.
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None of that.
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It was, it was very cold, very not great.
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And so I then took that because I am me and was like, that
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is not gonna be my story.
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And if anyone knows me, they're like, yep, that's right.
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I, I'm not gonna live that life.
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I'm gonna live a different life and I'm gonna just figure it out as I go.
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And I was already at naturopathic.
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College.
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Um, I knew I wanted to work in women's health, but that's really what the, the
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next few years of me saying, okay, if I am going to struggle to get pregnant,
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what do I need to do to mitigate that?
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I spent, I. How old was I when I got pregnant with Cole?
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So I spent the next five years in preconception care, which most women
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don't get that privilege right.
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And I can look back on my journey now and say I'm so grateful that that happened
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because yes, it wasn't lovely, but.
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It led me to actually take the next five years of my life to make every
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decision, basically through the lens of if I do wanna have kids,
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what should I be doing now to help get my body ready for that place?
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And we, we did start maybe a little bit earlier than I. Originally kind
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of wanted to given the guise of like, we don't know what's going to happen,
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and I was very, very fortunate to get pregnant with my son and then my daughter
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and be able to go on and say like a. Women's healthcare is just so garbage.
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And I wanna contribute to women's healthcare in a way that is empowering
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for women and not reactive, but proactive.
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And then living through and learning all about fertility and
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how can we optimize our bodies.
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And what does that look like?
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Um, really help me to see.
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How we can support couples on a deeper level.
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So when I started practicing.
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I took that very like common approach as a new practitioner of like, I wanna do this,
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I wanna work in infertility, but I don't know, like I wanna keep my options open.
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And for the first year of practice it was.
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Fertility case after fertility case after fertility case that came through my door.
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And I very quickly built a name for myself and my community as someone who
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listened and gave legitimate suggestions beyond just take your prenatal and keep
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trying, and actually helped to dig deeper.
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Um, and that spiraled into then me saying like, no, this is, this
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is what I wanna do, obviously.
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My story wasn't one of deep struggle like we hear in the fertility space,
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but it still brought me to a place of knowledge and understanding that I needed
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in order to share this with anyone and everyone who will, who will listen.
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No, I so appreciate you sharing that with us to like, like set the groundwork
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and I honestly relate to that a lot.
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I actually did the work to get my period back, um, for my own
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personal stories, obviously period recovery, like my audience.
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But I did it four years before I was trying to conceive.
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So like you, I was in that preconception planning phase for four years and I
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really think that was for a reason because I wanted like you to learn
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as much as I could about it and.
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I'm so grateful that that happened 'cause it was a quicker process for us because
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I did that work so many years ahead of schedule and so much time spent really
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learning, investigating, really like using my body as an experiment, which I'm
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sure you can relate to what practitioner doesn't do that to some degree.
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Uh, but speaking of experiments, um, and more specifically protocols that help.
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Men specifically to support their fertility.
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That's the focus of what we're gonna chat about today on this show.
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We talk a lot about peer recovery, getting pregnant after ha, but.
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I really want to address the woman's husband who has not been addressed
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yet, who is like, I don't need to do anything, or I don't even know what to do.
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Or could I also be part of the problem?
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'cause I do think women with peer loss get blamed for like, this is the
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entirety of our fertility struggles.
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So that's what we're gonna chat about today and I think
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just a good place to start is.
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Why is it so important to address male fertility issues just as much
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as we address women infertility?
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Yeah, so I, I have stats and numbers for you because that is my brain,
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but before I share them, love it.
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Let me share a story.
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That came from my first year of practice.
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So I had this client, she came to work with me, um, in prep for her
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wedding to help heal her skin.
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She had acne.
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She connected with my story.
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She wanted to work on her skin before she got married.
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We spent, um, many, many, many months together.
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After the wedding, she was like, okay, we're ready to start our family.
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Help me with that.
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And I was like, okay, cool.
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So we started doing some preconception stuff.
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We were doing acupuncture.
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Months went by, nothing was working.
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We did more things and more testing.
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After about 10 months, I was like, okay, I think it's time I. At this point to
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go to the fertility clinic and where we lived in that moment, I could refer her.
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They took my referral over.
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They don't anymore, but it, whatever.
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That's not a part of the port, the story.
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Um, I have beef with that, but that's okay.
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So we sent her over to the fertility because I was like, listen, there are
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things here, like we don't have an HSG, we don't know if your tubes are open.
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Like there's only so much I could do as an nd I can't order.
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Ultrasounds and, and that type of testing.
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So I was like, we need to get this physical stuff done and
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you, we can send you over.
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She wasn't really open to the clinic earlier on.
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We'd had that conversation, but she, at that point, she was like,
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okay, cool, let's go do that.
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She got in there, she came back to me after they got all the testing and
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everything done, and she was like, Kelsey, it's not me, it's my husband.
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And I was like, what do you mean it's your husband?
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And she was like, he never knew that when he was younger he had issues with his
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testicles and they had to do surgery.
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And so when we did our sperm analysis, they found that he actually
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only had like 4 million sperm and just FYI, you should have over 50
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million per milliliter, if not more.
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That's like bare bones.
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And we were like my, she said, the doctor said, our only option is IVF.
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And, and she's like, is that true?
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And I was like, well, yeah, if these numbers are, are right, like
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it's definitely your best option.
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Um, and they went on and had, did IVF.
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They have two beautiful twins.
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They, they transferred two embryos.
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They both took, they've got beautiful twins at home.
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And like the story has a very happy ending, but it's sits with me.
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Every single day that I did not run a semen analysis on her husband on day
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one, and it quite literally changed the trajectory of every single fertility
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client that walked through my door.
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Thank God that happened really early on in my practice because
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from then on I was like.
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A woman walked and sat in my chair and I was like, get your husband's
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button here right now because we are not wasting any time.
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I will not have another one of you sit for a year and assume
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it is you when it in fact isn't.
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So the one thing that's really important to know is regardless of your ha journey,
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your period loss, what have you, you, you, you know, if you're not ovulating.
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Pregnancy isn't going to happen.
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Okay, cool.
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We know that that's fine and we can have feelings about that, obviously,
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but that doesn't negate the fact that sperm will always be 50% of the equation.
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And once you are ovulating, that sperm now comes into play right away.
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Right.
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And so.
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One in six couples struggle to get pregnant for a wide variety of reasons,
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but if we break that down, 33% of couples are struggling because of male factor
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infertility on their own just male factor.
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And another 33% of couples are struggling because of a combination of male.
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And female factor.
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That's one third of all couples.
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And if we put that together, that's two thirds of couples
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have male factor infertility.
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It's on the rise.
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We know that male fertility is declining.
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If we look at the research, yes.
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Is it scary?
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It is.
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Like if we really dig into it and there's a lot of fear monering
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out there, but I also think that.
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Uh, men, maybe men are a little bit farther behind in like the health craze,
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but like we are starting to kind of realize that we have to treat our bodies a
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bit differently in order to stay healthy.
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We can't just like keep on keeping on with how we treated ourselves, um, in the
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nineties and, and early two thousands.
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And, and so we, we know that that's a piece and if you dig into the
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data, there are some scary statistics out there that are showing if, if.
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Society continues the way that it's continuing.
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Men could really start, all men could struggle to make babies in
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the next few decades, and that's.
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You know, in our lifetime, right?
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So that's a really scary thought, but there's so much we can do to change
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that trajectory for you personally and for our society as a whole.
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Um, and the first step is to realize that just because you have a known
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diagnosis that's impacting fertility, that doesn't mean that your partner.
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Couldn't also be contributing.
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And how beautiful to use the time to optimize sperm that you are
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taking to get your period back and to start ovulating again.
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Like we don't wanna waste any time.
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We don't want to wait.
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Until you are ovulating to find out, oh, he actually has a problem too.
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We can use this time that you are working to build your ovulatory capacity back up
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by also optimizing his health as well.
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I think that's such a good point right there if like there's gonna be a
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timeframe that it does take us to get your peer back at least three months,
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sometimes more, occasionally less, but it's, it's gonna be a period of
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time and we know that we can change.
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The quality and quantity of sperm within three months.
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Uh, especially if we have three to six months.
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I mean, there's a lot we can do.
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And I think yes, it, it could be really scary to sit and look at those
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statistics and I, I think in some ways, sometimes we need to let ourselves.
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Feel the fear, because I do think that impacts our willingness
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to make behavior change.
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Right?
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Especially for the men listening to this episode.
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However, I think this episode is more than anything like really empowering
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of like there's a lot you can do.
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So let's just start with some like basic understandings of what is healthy sperm.
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Like if we talk about motility morphology concentration, you
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mentioned some, like for example, like the 50 million as like the.
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The bare minimum.
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Let's go through those specifics so that they understand like
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what we're looking at here.
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Yeah, so if you wanna check your sperm and see like our first kind of lens
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of what's our fertility capacity, that would be looking at a semen analysis.
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And for anyone that is sharing this with their husbands that they're
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like, I don't wanna get testing that.
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I'm not ready for that.
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That's awkward.
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I first want you to know that it's.
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It's not the same as what we see mm-hmm.
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On old TV sitcoms.
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Is that home now?
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It's pretty easy.
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Yeah.
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You don't wanna go into the creepy room with the creepy magazines that everyone
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else has touched and like, someone's like, everyone always pictures someone
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leaning against the door, listen.
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Like, no, it's not like that anymore.
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You can literally do it at home and you drive it in.
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So there's, we can just get rid of all that fear.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I will say for any of my dudes that have been.
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Skeptical and nervous and it's taken them time.
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They always come back and be like, that was not that bad.
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And I'm like, okay, cool.
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See, can we share, can we like spread that word out there a little bit, but.
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That's what you wanna have done.
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So you wanna ask for a semen analysis, and that's gonna come
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back with lots of different numbers.
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And the main kind of things we're looking at to start is how many sperm are there?
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How do they swim and what do they look like?
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So that's concentration, motility, and morphology.
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And we have data from the World Health Organization that we use to say what
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is optimal versus what is normal.
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Because what you're seeing on the reference range of those documents
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is what they deem as normal in the.
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General population that's not necessarily optimal for conception.
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So they have pulled their reference ranges from what is deemed the
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fifth percentile in their data.
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So that means that if you're hitting that number, they're still 95%
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of men that are better than you.
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And that's how low their standards are, which is, and
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it used to be not my favorite.
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No, it's silly.
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It's not smart.
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Like it makes no sense.
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But we just, the, the issue being is that reference ranges are built
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off of population average, and we've already said sperm health is declining.
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Back in the forties, our optimal range for concentration was over
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100 million per milliliter, and now we're happy if it's over 30.
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That's a huge, that's insane.
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Huge difference.
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And so when we look at that paper with that data, I'm kind of
20:44
aiming for the 50th percentile.
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We wanna be, we want a 50 50 chance.
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That's kind of how I, I look at it.
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And so when we look at those numbers, we ideally want your
20:53
concentration to be around 60 million per milliliter or higher.
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We want your motility to be around 60% or higher, and they break that down
21:03
into forward progressive, slow, rapid.
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We, we want them to be able to swim straight and fast.
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Ideally, if you look at a video of a Petri dish of sperm, they all swim like this.
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It's, it's actually, whenever I look at that, it's quite a miracle that we
21:20
have any humans at all because sperm.
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Don't just like line up like an army and swim straight.
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They, they chase their own tails.
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They're all over the place.
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Like, and that's just, the majority of them are going to swim like that.
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That's why you need so many, 'cause it's a numbers game when it comes to sperm.
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Then with morphology, we have slightly lower standards.
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And I would say that mostly just comes from the fact that I very rarely see it
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higher than like that fifth percentile.
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So whether that's a good or a bad thing, I'm not sure.
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Um, we'd love it to be over 8%, 10%, but that is fairly rare from the, you know.
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Hundreds and hundreds and over a thousand easily semen analysis I've
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looked at over the last few years.
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So we ideally am happy if that number's four or higher, and that is the reference
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range that you'll see on the papers.
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Um, and that's just a harder, a harder number.
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But with that percentage, again, it becomes a numbers game.
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So if your morphology is, let's say 3% and slightly below normal, but you have.
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A good amount of sperm, you're maybe in the 80 million per milliliter, that
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1% difference becomes less problematic.
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Whereas if you are 3%, but then you also only have 15 million per milliliter,
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now that 1% becomes more problematic because the numbers are vastly different.
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So we want lots of sperm, but we also want.
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Good quality sperm.
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So we're gonna start with, with those numbers to kind of guide us in towards
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what other labs need to be done.
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If numbers are low, we're often saying, okay, is there a physical blockage?
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Is there an infection?
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Is there hormonal disruption that we wanna be looking at?
23:12
Is there metabolic reasons we wanna be looking at?
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A lot of the things I'm sure.
23:17
Victoria, you talk about in terms of like insulin and, and blood sugar and things
23:23
that all of that matters for men and sperm production and testosterone production,
23:27
just as much as it matters for women.
23:30
So the good news is, is when it comes to making healthy
23:33
changes, men can often just.
23:36
Do what their partners are doing, and it's gonna have the same positive
23:40
impact, but in a different way.
23:42
And so the same analysis can give us a lot of information in terms of where do we go
23:46
from here if the numbers are looking low.
23:49
And also what does the research tell us in terms of helping to
23:52
improve these numbers specifically.
23:56
Yeah.
23:56
So let's, um, let's piggyback off of what you were sharing earlier or
24:00
just a second ago, rather, of some of the basic things that really
24:03
negatively impact sperm quality.
24:06
And let's stick in a little bit more there, because I wanna like, think of like
24:10
the basic health habits from like alcohol consumption to marijuana to food intake.
24:15
Let's talk about like what negatively impacts sperm health
24:18
from just like a basic health habit standpoint, and then what
24:22
positively impacts it once we do that.
24:24
Yeah, so we look at it from like a four foundational pillar lens.
24:29
So how are you eating?
24:31
How are you moving your body?
24:32
How are you sleeping?
24:33
And where's your mindset?
24:35
And so if we break those down into like, which of these habits could be potentially
24:40
negatively impacting, I would say the big ones being the, the food that you are
24:44
or not eating, and how you are generally treating your body in terms of your sleep.
24:51
Sleep actually has the most fascinating research.
24:54
Um, for men and women, but men in the fertility world, it's way easier
24:58
to, to do research on men because it's so easy to get a semen sample
25:02
and be like, do this for a month and come back and we'll do it again.
25:05
And, and so the data is really fascinating, but
25:07
sleep is a really big one.
25:08
Stress is a really big one.
25:10
Um, and your metabolic health is important.
25:12
So that kind of circles back into the how are you eating and
25:15
how are you moving your body?
25:17
We know that men who are overweight, men who are chronic marijuana users,
25:23
which I will asterisk that in, saying the data doesn't do a great job in
25:29
explaining what that actually means, like from a quantity perspective.
25:35
Um, but we know that there is impact.
25:36
We know there's impact with nicotine, we know there's impact with alcohol and.
25:42
From a data lens, we also know that it comes down to.
25:47
A long-term exposure and amount of use.
25:51
So for example, you going out on a Friday night and having a few drinks with your
25:57
friends, but you're not really much of a drinker at home, and that's like a
26:00
couple times a month and not a big thing.
26:02
That's a very.
26:04
Different conversation than the person who's having 3, 4,
26:08
6 beers every single night.
26:11
And then even more perhaps on the weekends.
26:13
Like we do have to look at it from a, a quantity lens when we're talking about.
26:19
Alcohol, even cigarettes.
26:21
Um, nicotine is another one that they don't do a great job in
26:25
the data at being like, here's the line we don't want to cross.
26:29
Mm-hmm.
26:29
Like, you can have this much, but anything after that, not so much.
26:34
'cause they more so look at it from a lens of how long you've been
26:39
smoking and then how much you've been smoking and kind of like.
26:43
Pinpoint it from there, but the data's never positive
26:46
when we look at those things.
26:47
So if those are habits that are still within your lifestyle, how I
26:52
approach it with clients, because I.
26:55
No one wants to have some lady from the internet come in and
26:58
be like, you can't do this.
26:59
You can't do that.
27:00
You can't do this.
27:01
You have to stop that.
27:02
Right.
27:02
Like that's just, they're fair.
27:03
Fair.
27:04
Especially with our men, like especially with men.
27:07
Men need numbers.
27:10
Data, they're very logic driven.
27:12
So, um, for example, we're, we're running our conceived together challenge
27:16
right now, and I can give you the link for that, Victoria, but 'cause
27:19
people can, can grab it at any point.
27:21
And it's built with both partners in mind.
27:24
But I share the data of like, okay, this is why sleep is important.
27:28
It's important.
27:29
Specifically for men, for testosterone production, for your nervous
27:33
system and to lower your cortisol.
27:35
And we know that men who sleep more than seven and a half hours
27:38
of good quality sleep at night have significantly higher sperm counts.
27:43
Like it's quite literally that simple.
27:45
And I share the data.
27:48
So when we have husbands that are like me, I'm not really sure I can do that.
27:53
It's always about one tiny change at a time.
27:57
It can make a really, really big impact.
28:00
It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
28:03
Mm-hmm.
28:03
So with alcohol, for example, 'cause I find alcohol is usually the
28:09
biggest sticky and, and smoking like.
28:12
It's a bigger decision to quit smoking than it is to change
28:16
anything else, obviously, because we have that addiction piece usually
28:19
intertwined into there, but mm-hmm.
28:21
Alcohol is typically one where men are like, I don't wanna give this up.
28:24
This is my social time, you know?
28:26
Yep.
28:26
Like, hear that all the time, yada, yada, yada.
28:28
I, and I get that.
28:29
And so the data that we have comes from the IVF space, which most of
28:33
our fertility research does come from the IVF space, and we have to.
28:38
Borrow that when we're not in that space yet necessarily.
28:42
And the research shows that men or women who drink more than four
28:47
alcoholic beverages a week have a lower conception rate in IVF.
28:52
Wow.
28:52
So four is not that many.
28:54
I was about, that's why I'm saying Wow.
28:55
I'm like, four's not that many.
28:57
Yeah, it's not that much.
28:58
And, and we're talking legitimate, appropriate sized.
29:02
Beverages.
29:03
So like, which let's build this, a wine glass that's like usually two servings.
29:07
Exactly.
29:08
Like a tall boy is not the right amount.
29:12
Or like you just getting a very big cup and being like one serving
29:18
that doesn't work that way.
29:19
So.
29:20
When we, you know, in our society, our own versions of serving size, especially
29:25
when it comes to alcohol, is very different than what is actually standard.
29:29
And so when we think about it that way too, we have to kind
29:32
of keep that in check as well.
29:34
So that's usually the first step that I give of like, okay, if we're
29:37
getting over that, let's say your partner tells me that they're typically
29:42
drinking 10 to 12 drinks per week.
29:44
I'm not gonna come in here and be like, you must quit.
29:47
Right now cold Turkey, with the exception of if they're gearing up
29:51
for an IVF cycle and they've got like four to six weeks before they're
29:55
doing an egg retrieval, then we do have a very serious conversation
29:58
around no alcohol in that timeframe.
30:01
But it's more so about, okay, if we're starting at 12, can we work on
30:06
getting down to 10 and then down to eight and then working our way down.
30:10
And if you wanna hang onto that four number being what the data shows us.
30:15
I'm fine with that.
30:16
Yeah, that's okay.
30:17
That's realistic.
30:18
Exactly.
30:19
Yeah.
30:19
And baby steps, like I think as women, and I mean this in a very polite
30:26
way, but when we're going through this journey, it's really easy for us
30:30
to go to them, our partners, and be like, look at all the stuff I'm doing.
30:35
You need to do X, Y, Z, A, B, C, 1, 2, 3, all these random things
30:40
you found on TikTok and Instagram.
30:43
That can feel very, very overwhelming in that moment, whereas coming
30:46
at them and being like, I read this really cool article.
30:49
Mm-hmm.
30:49
And I think this could make a really big change.
30:53
And I know it might be challenging, but I'm gonna do it with you and
30:57
let's just take it really slow and focus on one thing at a time.
31:01
And that makes a huge difference than trying to do, and this goes for
31:06
anybody, like trying to change eight things at once is very different.
31:09
It's never a good idea.
31:10
No, never a good idea.
31:12
But for men, it can feel they're in a different head space in the fertility
31:16
world because it's ha, it's hard.
31:19
It's different, right?
31:20
It's not their bodies.
31:21
We can get very fixated, especially I would imagine in the HA
31:25
community, very fixated on like.
31:28
Healing and getting our periods back.
31:30
Yeah, and, and all the focus there.
31:32
You can't also have the same amount of attention on trying to fix all
31:38
the habits you feel like your husband has that are negatively impacting
31:42
your fertility as well, which is why working with a practitioner to do that
31:46
for you, I think is so, so important.
31:49
But.
31:50
You need to focus on you.
31:51
And the one thing I find with our community is that leading by example
31:55
is probably one of the most powerful ways to change lifestyle habits.
31:58
And eventually they come around and they're like, oh, I'm just gonna start
32:02
eating what you're eating, and oh, you're going for a walk, or maybe I'll come
32:06
with you, because then we can chat and have connection time and just work things
32:10
in really, really easily like that.
32:12
Whereas we're not just coming in and taking away.
32:15
The burgers, the beer, the fun, right?
32:18
I always tell my clients when they start with me, like, I don't wanna be the fun
32:20
police, but like, here's what I'm seeing based on your numbers, and this is what
32:28
the research shows us can help with these numbers, and ultimately, you're
32:33
a grown ass man and you get to decide.
32:35
Yeah, do with that information.
32:37
Right.
32:38
I would, I imagine for these guys too though, this is where the semen analysis
32:41
is so helpful because as you were talking about earlier, like the data.
32:46
It's so important, it's so helpful.
32:48
Uh, and I know that's true for our clients too.
32:50
When they see their low estrogen on a lab value, when they see what everything
32:55
looks like when they see the low mineral status, like they take it more seriously.
32:59
And I think for men, a semen analysis for many different reasons, including
33:02
like a personalized care plan, but also just so they take it seriously.
33:07
Like, yeah, there is actually room for improvement here, or
33:10
there's a lot we need to fix.
33:11
And then from there, tanking it one step at a time.
33:14
'cause you're right.
33:15
Men are in a different head space.
33:17
I think that's just fair to Yeah.
33:19
Say.
33:20
And they can also take ownership of their role in the fertility too.
33:24
Yeah.
33:25
Okay.
33:25
So with the semen analysis, you can also have, um, tested your DNA fragmentation.
33:30
Yeah.
33:30
Help the listener understand like what exactly that is.
33:33
'cause I feel like it's a big, fancy word and sometimes that's.
33:36
Common, the fertility spaces that throw around big, fancy
33:39
words but not explain it.
33:40
So let's start there and then like we can talk about what
33:42
improves DNA fragmentation.
33:44
Yeah.
33:44
Yeah.
33:45
So when we do a semen analysis, we're essentially looking at
33:49
the sperm on the outside, so it doesn't tell the whole picture.
33:55
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35:00
Now let's get back to today's episode.
35:02
Okay, so the, the tricky part here is you can have a good amount of sperm that swim
35:08
really well and look fine on the outside.
35:12
But aren't great on the inside, and that's where DNA fragmentation comes into play.
35:16
So I have a podcast episode.
35:18
Talking about how a good semen analysis doesn't just like give
35:22
you a gold star and, you know, say, okay, you're, you're good.
35:25
You don't have to do anything because there's actually this other number
35:30
that we don't get from a standard semen analysis and isn't also readily,
35:36
um, offered in the fertility space.
35:39
I find it.
35:39
Still something that people need to advocate for.
35:42
It's also more expensive than your run of the mill testing, but it is
35:46
very valuable, especially in couples who have miscarriage and loss.
35:53
We are seeing more and more data how the sperm is actually more of
35:57
a driving factor in miscarriage, and that's a big thing that.
36:02
We as women, often blame ourselves for that.
36:05
It's our body that's not doing what it's supposed to, but we're seeing
36:09
more literature coming out that that's actually not necessarily the case.
36:13
And this is where DNA fragmentation can come into play.
36:16
So I. What it's looking at in simplistic terms, is actually the DNA genetic
36:22
makeup of the sperm internally.
36:24
So it can look healthy on the outside, it can swim well, and you might have a
36:29
lot of them, but if the DNA on the inside isn't great, when it fertilizes with
36:34
that embryo, we're not, or with that egg, sorry, we're not gonna have an embryo
36:38
that's necessarily compatible with life, it may not be able to implant at all.
36:44
It might implant but not continue to develop.
36:47
And so now we're potentially having chemical or early losses.
36:50
It might continue development until later in the first trimester and
36:55
then have losses at that point.
36:56
We don't really know.
36:58
We can't pinpoint exactly when that is potentially going to happen, but
37:01
we know now more and more coming out that that is a piece of the puzzle.
37:05
So.
37:07
Even if you've had a good semen analysis, that doesn't negate the fact
37:10
that working on the overall quality of your sperm is still very important
37:15
and impactful, even if you don't run this secondary test, that's still true.
37:21
And then if you are in the camp of, I want all the data and all
37:25
the numbers, I encourage you to source that testing out for sure.
37:29
Mm-hmm.
37:29
Um, and or you are having miscarriages, you're further on in your journey and
37:34
you are having losses at that point.
37:36
Don't let anyone tell you that that's a female issue because it's not, and
37:41
it's still likely can be driven male factor wise, and or if you are doing
37:46
medicated cycles or you're in the IVF space and your embryos aren't developing.
37:52
Or, um, they're all genetically abnormal and, and an or non-Anglo.
37:58
Then that would be another instance where we'd wanna do DNA fragmentation
38:02
testing and actually see we want that number to be ideally below 15%.
38:06
So again, not all sperm are gonna be healthy imper.
38:10
It is a numbers game.
38:12
There's always going to be bad ones there.
38:14
There's also always going to be not great eggs no matter what you do.
38:18
That's just.
38:19
A fact of life.
38:21
But yeah, we can't control everything.
38:22
Exactly.
38:23
We can't.
38:24
And if you take like anything out of this episode, if you're on your fertility
38:27
journey, the fact that you have to let go of trying to control everything, I think
38:32
is so important for your nervous system.
38:36
Mm-hmm.
38:37
Especially for ha girlies, that is their personality.
38:40
So much so.
38:40
Yes.
38:41
So they really have to work on that.
38:42
Yeah.
38:43
A hundred percent.
38:43
A hundred percent.
38:44
So, yeah.
38:45
So the DN Afra is, is.
38:47
Something that is not.
38:50
Like I said, readily pushed in the testing space.
38:53
It's definitely something you'll probably have to ask for and maybe even be
38:57
told like, yeah, you don't need that.
38:58
It's fine.
38:59
But if you want that data, it is available for you to get.
39:03
And if you find your DNA fragmentation is high.
39:06
The biggest driver for that is oxidative stress.
39:09
So our best way to combat oxidative stress is to look at our lifestyle.
39:15
So smoking, alcohol, excuse me.
39:19
Eating how we're eating, how we're moving our body.
39:22
Endocrine disrupting chemicals and looking at our exposures to EDCs
39:26
and plastics and things like that.
39:28
Mm-hmm.
39:29
Um, and then using antioxidants to help reduce that oxidative stress in our body.
39:35
So the good news when we build out most of our care plans is a lot of the things.
39:41
Like selenium and zinc and vitamin C mm-hmm.
39:43
That have good data to support sperm count and motility and morphology.
39:48
Coq 10 and on all of the things is also helping with DNA fragmentation regardless
39:54
if we know those numbers or not.
39:57
So we can take a little bit of like comfort in that, but then having
40:01
the number knows like, how high do we have to dial up this support?
40:06
So let's take, let's say.
40:08
Three specific health habits that you're like, okay, every single male could do
40:13
these starting today, listening to this podcast, and they would make such a
40:16
drastic improvement in their sperm quality as well as their DNA fragmentation.
40:20
If you could only pick three, what would you pick?
40:23
If you are not prioritizing your sleep, if you're someone that
40:27
is like a certified night owl.
40:30
Looking at my husband,
40:33
he's like, I just can't go to bed before midnight where I'm
40:37
like, at eight 30 bed, right?
40:39
I know I'm in.
40:39
Oh, the kids kids are in bed.
40:41
Yes, I shall follow off my phone.
40:46
But if you're like, no, I just, I just stay up late.
40:48
But then you have to get up at like six or five 30 to start your job for the
40:52
day, and so you're only giving yourself.
40:55
Six-ish hours.
40:57
It doesn't seem like that's very drastic, and we hear this all the time.
41:01
I've always been like that.
41:02
I've, I thrive off six hours of sleep.
41:06
You do not, your internal wiring does not thrive.
41:11
Off of six hours of sleep, you've learned to adapt to six hours of sleep.
41:16
Yeah.
41:17
Yeah.
41:17
But you do not thrive on six hours of sleep, and the research is just so.
41:22
Cool.
41:22
And so if you are that person that's like, you're looking at yourself
41:26
being like, okay, maybe I give myself seven hours in bed to sleep.
41:30
But yeah, it takes me a bit to fall asleep.
41:32
I wake up a little bit like, and I am tired.
41:36
Like if we're really honest with ourselves, I think that's
41:39
a really easy thing to change.
41:42
That's a free, like we're not talking, going out and buying a bunch
41:47
of stuff to try and hope it works.
41:48
It's free to improve your sleep.
41:51
And it can be very simple, but it takes time.
41:54
You're not gonna go from someone who goes to bed at one in the morning to someone
41:58
who comes to bed with Victoria and I at eight 30 and just fall asleep easily.
42:02
Although most men can close their eyes and just fall asleep, like wherever.
42:05
So maybe can, I couldn't, you know, I, you have to generally like
42:09
work your bedtime back to a point where you feel comfortable, but.
42:13
Aiming for that eight hours of good quality sleep is so important for so
42:18
many aspects of, of your life in general.
42:21
Take fertility out of it.
42:23
But that would be a big.
42:24
Big one, that can cause huge, impactful change.
42:27
That's very, very easy.
42:29
I would then really examine how you're eating and how
42:32
you're nourishing your body.
42:33
And if you're someone who does get quite a bit of sugar fried food,
42:37
processed food, like this is a more complex change for sure, in terms of
42:43
lifestyle and choices and preparation that we have to think about.
42:47
But if.
42:48
Your wife is a member of this community, I guarantee you she's already making
42:52
those changes and adjustments.
42:54
So how easy to just like follow suit, right?
42:57
And join her.
42:58
And we kind of alluded to this at the beginning of how, I actually don't know
43:02
if we were recording when we talked about this, but how important it is,
43:06
even if for the male por portion of this journey, if you get all of the like
43:11
green check marks, everything looks good.
43:15
There's something to be said about joining your partner and meeting her
43:19
where she's at as a level of support.
43:22
Of like, okay, you're seeing her and you're acknowledging her.
43:25
All of the crazy things she's changing and maybe struggling with, and it's
43:32
such a show of compassion and support to just say like, I'm gonna do this
43:37
with you even though I don't maybe need to, but we're in this together.
43:41
Like once you are trying to conceive a child.
43:44
It's not you and her, it really is a team effort.
43:49
It has to be.
43:51
Mm-hmm.
43:51
And the fertility journey is so isolating and lonely for women and men.
43:56
You know, we could have a whole other hour conversation about the, the mindfulness
44:00
and mental health aspect of male fertility that is not talked about at all.
44:05
But that show of support of like, I'm gonna join you on these
44:09
changes so that we're in this together is, is a really big.
44:14
Piece that needs to be talked about and needs to be actually
44:18
encouraged, I think in, in couples.
44:21
'cause a lot of clinics will just be like, you're good.
44:23
Don't worry about it.
44:23
And get really focused on the woman and, and that's not showing com
44:28
companionship and support in my opinion.
44:31
So the food thing is a big one.
44:34
Um, and then I would say the third one would probably depend on.
44:41
Uh, I mean, I'm gonna put exercise as my third one I think.
44:45
'cause again, lots of really great data and research.
44:49
Um, men who strength train three times a week have higher levels of
44:54
testosterone and more healthy sperm compared to men who don't exercise at all.
45:00
Um, and some men I find get very cardio heavy and that's their
45:05
exercise of choice, which is great.
45:07
However.
45:08
That's not necessarily building that muscle, it's muscle that we
45:12
want to build that lean muscle.
45:13
Mm-hmm.
45:14
To help with testosterone production.
45:16
And again, another thing like sleep that isn't just helping
45:20
fertility but has so many other trickle down benefits for your life.
45:26
In your lifestyle.
45:27
Another thing that your partner is probably trying to figure out
45:31
what that looks like in her life, and you can do that together in a
45:35
healthy and period supporting way.
45:38
Um, but that would be probably my third.
45:41
Yeah.
45:42
Movement I think is also like a really powerful treatment tool.
45:45
We're so quick to say, take these 10 supplements and let's cross
45:50
our fingers instead of saying.
45:52
Let me look at my lifestyle.
45:54
Mm-hmm.
45:55
First, and where are there areas that like maybe aren't, aren't terrible, but
46:00
I could make some impactful improvements?
46:03
Then bring the supplements in as like an adjunctive therapy.
46:06
Yeah.
46:07
And when you're saying all this, I'm like, gosh, if, if he did all of these
46:10
things, those three areas, the sleep, the eating, the exercise, not only is he
46:15
gonna be supporting his fertility, but gosh, you're gonna feel so much better.
46:19
Yeah.
46:19
Like you get enough sleep and you.
46:21
Regularly move your body, especially strength training.
46:24
That's something we really advocate for, for men and women.
46:27
Um, and then you're eating nourishing foods.
46:30
You're gonna feel incredible.
46:32
So like, just like major bonus points for fertility, but like,
46:36
you're gonna feel good too.
46:37
And that's, that's a nice feeling.
46:39
And like you said, like women with pure loss fear so much of the burden, but.
46:43
Their husbands need to join them.
46:45
If anything, just to say like, Hey, I see you potentially gaining some weight,
46:50
having to add more food in, having to change some of what you're eating.
46:55
I am going to join you and making some changes.
46:57
That may be difficult for me too, but I see you doing difficult
47:00
things and we can do it together.
47:02
Yeah, a hundred percent.
47:04
So for the woman who's listening who does have period loss, how
47:07
important do you think it still is to address male fertility?
47:12
1 million person.
47:13
Yeah.
47:16
If my story at the beginning didn't convince you, hopefully like come do the,
47:21
come do the conceive together challenge.
47:23
Um, because yeah, we'll put the, share some of the data for sure.
47:27
And again, like I said, like men love numbers and love the research
47:30
and so it's a really easy way to open up the conversations around
47:35
these different lifestyle changes that might feel heavy and hard.
47:39
But if you are.
47:41
Serious about wanting a baby, he needs to be on board.
47:46
Mm-hmm.
47:46
That there's, that's just like a non-negotiable thing.
47:50
There is no other choice in my opinion, and it's so easy to have testing done.
47:59
Yes.
47:59
Like I said, it might feel scary in the moment, but it's really not that hard.
48:05
And if you end up needing fertility clinic support.
48:09
I guarantee you the male portion of that is significantly easier
48:14
than the female portion of that.
48:15
That's what I'm thinking when you say that, like there's no way it's as bad
48:19
as what women have to go through though.
48:21
No, no, no.
48:22
No way at all.
48:23
No, not even similar.
48:24
Right.
48:25
Not even similar.
48:25
So it's just we have to let go of that ego piece.
48:29
Um, and that fear, and I think that's the hardest part for men is there, there
48:34
is a very deep rooted fear in, in their bones of like, well, what if it is me?
48:40
Yeah.
48:40
And that's what blocks them.
48:41
Right?
48:41
And it makes sense, like the ego sitting there saying.
48:44
It can't be me.
48:45
I'm a man.
48:46
I can make all of the babies.
48:48
That's why I'm here on this planet.
48:49
Yeah.
48:49
We have that ancestral drive to reproduce and so it, there is a, a barrier for men.
48:56
So I don't wanna sit here and say like, it's super easy.
48:59
Just go do it.
49:00
Because for those of you listening who have that block, I get it.
49:04
I see it with my clients partners all the time and it, and it almost
49:10
feels easier to just not know.
49:14
Then to acknowledge that something might be wrong.
49:17
And that's very common in the fertility space.
49:19
It's common.
49:20
Women do it too, right?
49:21
Yeah.
49:21
Where we're like, oh, I'm just gonna keep on keeping on and
49:25
hope for the best because like.
49:27
It feels scarier to actually know what the problem is than
49:32
to hear there is a problem.
49:36
And so that's the first kind of hurdle we have to jump over, especially
49:39
for men, because that tends to be the biggest roadblock for not just
49:44
getting testing done, but for making changes as we're, if we're making
49:48
changes, we're acknowledging that there's an issue and that can be scary.
49:54
But I think in this community, in the HA space, what a beautiful time to be able
50:00
to say we're working on period recovery.
50:03
We're not actually actively trying to conceive right in this moment, but I just
50:08
bought myself a few months to make sure that my body, my sperm is in tip top shape
50:14
so that when she is ovulating mm-hmm.
50:17
We're good to go because sperm turnover every 72.
50:21
Days.
50:21
So at three, three-ish months, two and a half, three-ish months is how long we need
50:27
to really make impactful changes to sperm.
50:30
And like for Victoria and myself, we had this, this warning, this red flag that
50:36
gave us years of preconception care, whereas most couples don't get that.
50:40
Yeah.
50:40
So if you are getting that like.
50:43
Look at it as bonus time.
50:45
Right.
50:45
It's not, I'm like, well, she's gonna have to do the recovery time.
50:48
Yeah, exactly.
50:48
To get her period back.
50:49
Like how freaking cool would it be if you immediately did a semen analysis
50:53
while she's doing her work to get her period back, and you were making
50:57
changes alongside with her so that she felt so supported to get her period
51:01
back and she felt a momentum with you.
51:03
But also it's the exact amount of time you need to start making
51:06
improvements to your sperm health like.
51:08
There is no losing cure.
51:10
No.
51:10
There can only win.
51:11
Yeah.
51:12
Gold star.
51:13
Gold star.
51:14
Thousand percent.
51:15
I don't give those out very freely, but the proactive man, he gets the gold star.
51:20
Also very attractive.
51:22
Let's just say that too.
51:23
Yes, yes.
51:24
We love, we love a proactive man who cares about his health.
51:27
Yes.
51:28
Women in 2025 Love.
51:31
Yes.
51:32
Okay.
51:33
This isn't such an informative, empowering.
51:37
Episode, I've loved what we've talked about and I really feel like I was exactly
51:41
what I hoped it would be, which is just a really good understanding of sperm
51:45
health and what we can do to improve it.
51:47
So I wanna wrap up though, Kelsey, with every, uh, question I ask
51:51
every guest that comes on the show.
51:52
I think I may have mentioned this when I was on your podcast,
51:55
but we have a philosophy here of wellness without obsession, probably
51:58
exactly as it sounds, right?
51:59
Like how do we take care of ourselves, but without losing our period?
52:04
Along the way.
52:05
Um, and I'd love to hear how you personally are living
52:09
wellness without obsession.
52:11
Ooh, I love this.
52:13
This is like so on brand for what I feel like I'm working through right now
52:17
because it's so easy to get hung up on.
52:22
Mm-hmm.
52:22
The checkbox items of like, in order to achieve this, I need to do da da.
52:28
And so for me.
52:30
It's about allowing myself moments of, of stillness.
52:34
So I am a busy go, go, go.
52:38
I'm, if you're familiar with human design, I'm a generator, so I thrive on like
52:43
high intensity, high energy environments.
52:46
Put a project in front of me that I enjoy doing.
52:48
I will sit here for 24 hours straight and enjoy my life.
52:52
Like I obviously can't do that now with my children.
52:54
They are my.
52:55
My stoppers, but I can, I can thrive in that environment.
52:59
But it also becomes that sort of like non wellness obsession, right?
53:08
And, and I can find myself kind of going in the other direction of like,
53:12
no, I can't be obsessed with this.
53:13
I have to be obsessed with wellness.
53:15
And you sort of have that pendulum all or nothing swing.
53:17
Mm-hmm.
53:18
And so for me to stop that.
53:19
It really comes down to allowing myself to have moments of slowness
53:24
because I'm so used to moving quickly.
53:26
So for example, I'm in a deep period right now of like mindset work for myself
53:32
and the company, and where are we going and how are we supporting our clients?
53:36
And it can get.
53:37
Easily lost in that.
53:39
And so this morning I was like, I have, you know, an extra hour or
53:43
two, I kind of am battling a cold.
53:45
Like let's just sit and read my book outside on the deck and listen to
53:49
the birds and like, oh, I love that.
53:50
Bring in that moment of like, I don't actually have anything I need.
53:56
To do right now, and I'm not doing this because I'm trying to be healthy.
54:03
That's kind of how I look at it, is like we have, and this, for any of you
54:08
who are trying to conceive, I think this is like one of the biggest mindset
54:12
shifts to make, is that not every decision you make needs to go through
54:17
this lens of like, well, is that.
54:20
Going to get me pregnant, right?
54:22
It's so easy for us to, it's too much.
54:23
It's too much.
54:24
Same with the ha, right?
54:25
Like, well, is this actually gonna get my period back or not?
54:28
Because if the answer's not, yes, I'm not doing it.
54:30
And if these answer is yes, add it to my checklist, and now I'm just
54:33
gonna robotically do those things.
54:36
And now we're no longer doing them with a sense of presence or mindfulness.
54:39
So.
54:40
Bringing in those moments for me of just like, okay, I, I actually have an hour
54:44
right now that I can just, what do I wanna do for myself that has nothing to
54:50
do with my goals, with be that health or otherwise that I just enjoyment and
54:56
bringing more and more of that into like, break up the checklist pieces.
55:02
I cannot relate to that more.
55:04
That is me to a team and I, I couldn't agree more.
55:07
It's, it's.
55:09
If you're gonna be this busy of a person, which all people with with ha
55:12
are this way too, they're type a high achieving women, uh, this is why we're
55:17
so driven and successful and it is also why we have to learn and actually
55:22
practice the habit of rest and pause, which may be for other people is easier.
55:26
So I love that that's how you answered.
55:29
I have loved this episode so much, Kelsey.
55:32
Tell everyone where they can find you and learn more from you and
55:34
potentially work with you too.
55:36
Yeah, come over and listen to the Fertility Confidence Podcast
55:39
and find Victoria's episode 'cause it also was really lovely.
55:43
Um, and I'm over on Instagram at Fertility Confidence Method.
55:47
You can find me there.
55:48
And if you're curious about the Conceived Together challenge, it's just ttc
55:52
dot kelsey duncan.com/ct challenge.
55:57
Um, and yeah, there's lots of fun stuff over on the website and on my Instagram.
56:01
Lots of free resources in the podcast.
56:03
Come check it out and, and.
56:05
Pick around and feel what you, what you need to look for.
56:08
Awesome.
56:08
I'll put all those links in the show notes too.
56:10
Thank you so much for going on the podcast today.
56:12
Thanks.
56:13
I.
56:14
Kelsey, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
56:16
Thank you to my incredible community for listening to this episode.
56:20
Do not forget to share this episode with your husband or partner, and I want him to
56:25
know, and for you to know too, that we do offer sperm analysis as an add on option
56:30
to premier peer recovery for fertility.
56:33
So not only in joining Premier Period recovery for fertility, will you get.
56:37
Every single thing you need in order to accomplish your goals of getting
56:41
your peer back and getting pregnant.
56:43
But you can also add on the option for your husband or partner to properly
56:48
nourish his body for fertility so that he can join you on this journey.
56:52
And really I think that is when the most.
56:54
Important things about doing a sperm analysis add-on, of course, is
56:58
catching anything that we need to see.
56:59
And giving strategic plan from a food, nutrition and supplement
57:03
perspective of how to fix that.
57:04
And I promise guys, listening is not we.
57:07
We make it so easy to understand.
57:09
We make it so attainable.
57:11
It meets you where you're at.
57:13
But I think what it does more than anything is it makes.
57:16
Your wife, your partner, feels so supported that she is, you know, having
57:20
to make some pretty massive changes in her life, and you are joining
57:23
her and meeting her halfway there.
57:25
That way you can both improve your sperm and egg quality as she's
57:29
doing the work to get her peer back.
57:31
And then you guys can go on to get pregnant if you wanna learn more.
57:34
You can do so with a link in our show notes.
57:36
Also, I will include all the links to learn more about Dr. Kelsey
57:39
Duncan in the show notes as well.
57:42
She's such an incredible resource.
57:44
I also highly recommend learning and potentially working with her too.
57:48
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
57:50
We will be back, as always for another episode next week.
57:53
Until then, no, that nourish body is a powerful one.