Latest / Legal Late Night / Think Like an Entrepreneur: BizDev, Career Transitions & The Tech You're Ignoring (with Steve Seckler)

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Think Like an Entrepreneur: BizDev, Career Transitions & The Tech You're Ignoring (with Steve Seckler) · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. In my monologue, I'm talking about missing links. I'm going to name several product categories and tell you about a feature you don't know about or are under utilizing. Tell me if I'm wrong. After that, we've got Steve Seckler of Seckler Attorney Coaching and it's an impromptu law firm consulting or coaching summit. Finally, Steve sticks around to help us to find some songs in the attic, or as I like to call it, deep Cuts with Steve Seckler 1970s edition. (00:45): I've got my shit together for this episode because I'm recording it all on the same day with the same clothes on and hat, no wardrobe changes whatsoever, but don't get your hopes up. Next time I try this, I may end up in a snowy landscape in view of Mr. Tums clutching a lamppost. So I want to talk about some missing links, which are features that you're not using in softwares that you use probably every day or underutilized features in those same common software applications for lawyers. So let's start with productivity software. When I'm talking about productivity software, what I really mean is email software, calendaring software. Every lawyer's got Google Workspace, which is Google's version of productivity software at Gmail and Google Calendar, or they're using Microsoft 365, which is Microsoft's version of a productivity software, which includes Outlook, email and Outlook calendar. Now, what I find interesting is that both of these products have associated document drives, so places that you can store your files and also share files internally or externally. (01:53): Microsoft has something called OneDrive. Google has something called Google Drive, and yet lawyers still utilize standalone document and filing tools. Most specifically, Dropbox is the one I see the most. So I always ask the question, if you're using Dropbox as a separate standalone document archive that's not really attached to anything else you use, are you doing that because you're unaware of OneDrive for Google Drive or you're unaware that they can do many of the same things? A lot of things better than what Dropbox offers? And I understand why people use Dropbox. Lawyers in particular, it's easy to use. Dropbox has been popular with lawyers for forever, but if you want a tool that you're already paying for that's already deeply embedded in a software you use every day, I would at least look at OneDrive and Google Drive. Now, with respect to everything I'm talking about here, you may be saying, Hey, I think Dropbox is the best document sharing tool and I want to use best in class software. (02:55): Cool, I'm good with that. But make that decision consciously. Don't do it just because you don't know about other tools that are available. So I run into this issue constantly and it may seem like a simple thing, but I bring it up because it's a recurring event in my consulting practice. Alright, productivity software, missing link or under utilized feature number two, scheduling tools. This is the same thing in terms of do I use best in class software and what do I consider best in class software? If you're somebody who's like, Hey, Calendly is my booking software, I use it because I think it's best tool, happy to pay for it, good on you. But Microsoft does have its own booking feature. It's called Wait for It, Microsoft Bookings, and Google has what's called online appointment scheduling within Google Workspace. So if again, you wanted to use a tool that you already own that you're already paying for, that you're comfortable using, that exists as well. (03:55): That feature exists as well in whichever productivity software you're utilizing. Now, productivity software, missing link or underutilized feature number three is, I'm going to start with Google here, but there is a Microsoft feature that does something similar to this newer. This one is Google Notebook, lm. So I asked AI to describe to me what Google Notebook LM was, and conveniently Google told me Google's AI overview said that it's a personalized AI powered research assistant that acts as a thinking partner by analyzing uploaded documents and other sources to generate summaries, brainstorms ideas, and to create personalized guides, study aids and timelines all while providing citations, strict responses. Pretty good. I like that description, which is why I read it. Whole cloth. We're using AI now to describe AI tools as we get very meta on the show. Now, if you've never used Google Notebook, Lim, you should check it out. (04:57): It's a pretty cool product and it's free. You don't have to have a paid Google account to use it, but it's a product you should absolutely check out and can be powerful in its own right or affiliated with Google Workspace. Now, Microsoft has its own product called Microsoft 365 copilot notebooks, which is essentially their version of Google Notebook lm, although neither name is particularly striking or rolls off the tongue. So if you've used Microsoft OneNote before, which is a note-taking project app or keep, which is Google's version of that, this is like a step up an upgrade from there. So check those out. Let's move on to case management software because I got some missing links. I got I'm underutilized features and case management softwares, and by the way, that's not an exhaustive list of tools that you could use within productivity softwares both Microsoft 365 and Google Workspace have a ton of shit built in that you're probably not even aware of. (06:01): So case management software, number one, email archiving and particularly the billing add-on. I still run into a lot of lawyers who don't know that they can archive emails via an add-on into the case management software so they can delete them from their inbox so they don't have to have a thousand messages in their inbox. I see that a lot too as well, by the way. But the other component about this that I think people sleep on is that those email archive functions also have a billing feature. So not only can I archive an email, but I can bill a line item for the time it took me to review and respond to that email, which is a helpful way to capture time that you might otherwise lose. So check that out. I run into this a lot as well. If you're using an email archive feature, generally speaking, it works better in the cloud version of your email system, and I'm talking about Microsoft really here. (06:55): So it works better on Microsoft 365 Outlook versus Microsoft Outlook for the desktop. So keep that in mind. Number two, e-payments. At this point in time, almost every case management software has e-payments built in, so you don't have to have another software independently operating for that makes it easier for workflow management. Automations saves you a bunch of time. Case management software also has e-signature tools built in either as a white labeled product or something that exists in the system on a customized basis. So take a look at that for case management software. If you haven't already, email archive features, e-payments and e-signature tools. Alright, let's move to CRM. Next, customer relationship management software, lead management software, everything attorneys should be looking at for intake can be built into these systems. So three things I would look at here, underutilized or undiscovered features, automations. The idea behind this whole scene is that you want to be able to automate the intake processes much as possible, and most attorneys, many attorneys are still using manual processes for this. (08:08): So people have to come in, remember to do things. That's a way that things tend to fall through the cracks in law firms. Law firms lose good leads. E-payment features are also built into CRMs. So if you are collecting a retainer, let's say from a new client, this gives you an option to do that through the m rather than the case management software, which some people prefer to do. If you are charging for initial consultation meetings, this can be done through the CRM as well, so that is helpful. You don't have to have a separate payment tool that you're integrating with the system to manage that. Lastly, automation 2.0, marketing automation, if you haven't had that term before, that is email marketing effectively. Most CRMs also, in addition to pipeline management, automation payment features, they also have signature tools. By the way, they have marketing automation tools built in for email marketing. (09:05): So I can send emails and text messages for marketing purposes through those systems and then I can get reporting based on interactions that my clients have with those messages. Let's throw out just a couple others. Accounting software lawyers, hate accounting. I've been in this racket for a while. I know not to spend too much time on accounting software is what I'm talking to lawyers. So let me just say this, probably the most underutilized or undiscovered feature is integrated with your case management software. So you can push out billing data to the accounting tool. That's all I'm going to say about that. As Forest Gump would say, task management, project management software, if you're using one that's separate from your law practice management software, which many attorneys do because they want more robust features, realize that those tools are building out AI workflow agents now or allowing you to do so, and project management softwares are great for workflow. (10:10): They can build out workflows, they can predict the next step you should take. So I thought I might ask AI what would be a definition for a workflow agent? And here's what it told me. A workflow agent is an autonomous AI driven software component that automates, manages and coordinates multi-step or technical processes often by orchestrating the actions of other agents or tools. Yeah, that's pretty succinct and let me put a little cherry on top of that and say the reason you use workflow agents is so that you can farm out a process completely to technology without reliance on humans. Obviously as a human, you're going to oversee the process and ensure that it's working correctly, but you don't actually have to do the process. I lied, I have one more, I just thought of it. So I'm going to say it. Document assembly software. This is why we don't script stuff. (11:06): Document assembly software. So one thing that's underutilized in document assembly tools for lawyers, they're not used at all, is intake field capture and logic triggers. So most people are on the backside of their document assembly, document automation software, and they're building documents through interviews. But some of these systems are able to intake information from clients or leads and start to populate documents and even to make field choices and trigger choices through that. So what I mean by that is client can type a name in and that name can enter the document or depending on choices that people select in an intake form, you can remove, add or tweak clauses in a, that is a massive time saver and I find a lot of folks aren't utilizing, a lot of lawyers aren't utilizing that to the extent they should. (12:02): Steve Steckler in our interview refers to the fact that we cover technology stuff from time to time on the show in addition to waxing poetic about pop culture. So I wanted to make sure this episode runs full circle. So now we've done our technology thing. Next up, however, is Steve Seckler completing the Steve Dyad alongside prior guest Steve Fretzin. This particular Steve, the upcoming Steve Steve Seckler Runs Seckler Legal Coaching and he's about to run his mouth at my insistence. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. So I'm going to carve some scrimshaw because whittling is for pussies. No, I'm just fucking with you. That sounds awful. And honestly I don't know how to do either thing. So let's interview our guest instead. We've got a great guest for you today. He's like the Tom Hanks or Steve Martin of SNL from my podcast. He's back for a fourth time. He has a fourth guest appearance. It's Steve Seckler, the one and only the president at Seckler Attorney Coaching. Steve, welcome. How are you, Steve Seckler (13:20): Jared? I am so honored to be on your show, but I have to say I'm a little nervous having listened to some of your recent episodes about what might come later in the questions you might ask. Jared Correia (13:30): You should be nervous. No, it's not going to be bad. I got something special for you. It's going to be fun. But seriously, thanks for coming on. So we're doing a video podcast now as well, and I would like to note that you have, well, it looks like a framed image of the dude from the Big Lebowski played by Jeff Bridgers of course, which I love. Is that just for us or is this like that? Steve Seckler (13:52): No. Well it is just for you because usually I have a virtual background, but you're not using that here. So I'm very proud to have the Big Lebowski, the dude in the background, the dude abides Jared Correia (14:04): Great Cohen Brothers movie. I need some, my background is a little bit busy. I'm going to tweak it one of these days, but that day is not today. So I want to start with, we're on a podcast. You have a podcast. So talk to me about that because you've been podcasting for quite a while, actually regularly. You have a lot of interesting guests, so you just run that down a little bit for me. Steve Seckler (14:31): Sure. Well, the podcast is called Council to Council, and I've been doing since 2018, and I credit you and Lawrence Colletti with Getting Me Started. You Inspire. Jared Correia (14:40): Oh, we got Lawrence Colletti. Shout out on the legal late night, the first one. Hey Lawrence, Steve Seckler (14:46): Go ahead. So I actually have a segment in my book about this, but for me the podcast is mostly about finding people that I find interesting to interview, who I want to build a relationship with and really honestly, I call it like Steve Sackler University where I get to learn whatever I want. Jared Correia (15:05): That's awesome. That's a great, I mean, I feel like that's a great way to think about podcasting. I talk to lawyers about podcasting all the time and they're like, they all think they got to be like this popular podcast where they got thousands and thousands of downloads. But if you're using a business development tool, if you're using it to learn things, I think that's a cool objective too. Steve Seckler (15:25): And I also use it sometimes as stuff to send to my clients. And so the basic themes are the three things that I coach lawyers on, whether it's marketing, career transitions or obstacles and leadership. I try to interview people that are either lawyers that can talk about those things or consultants like yourself who can talk about those things. Jared Correia (15:48): So in terms of the other big thing you got going on in terms of projects, you recently released a book with the A BA, right? Steve Seckler (15:57): I did. And you blurbed it. Jared Correia (15:58): So can you talk a little bit about what the book is about, who it's intended for, and obviously what's it called so people can go and get it? Steve Seckler (16:06): Sure. So the book is called Think a Lawyer, act Like an Entrepreneur, and basically it's about my own journey to get comfortable with marketing, which took a very long time. Lawyers have certain inequalities, we are skeptical or risk averse. We have high urgency about things we communicated in an analytical way. We're not that resilient, we don't like rejection. So a lot of those qualities are really helpful when we're representing our clients and they're not so helpful when we're trying to build relationships, which is really the foundation of building a practice. So the book is really a collection of the articles I've written over the years, interwoven with other things that I've written to sort of tie it all together. And again, the basic theme is that you don't have to act think like an entrepreneur to act like one. And that's a very important point that I try to make in the book because I think for a lot of us, we have an aversion to selling we as lawyers, and one of the big points I try to make is that don't worry about that, just do these things. And selling legal services is not about high pressure sales, it's really about getting out there, being a great listener, trying to be helpful. And the book is a lot of tools to help people do that. And the book, since you asked already, you can go to my website, sackler.com s sec CKLE r.com, and there's actually a discount code there, but it's also available on the A website. Jared Correia (17:34): All right, check it out. I've read it. It's good. Let me ask you this too. Wait Steve Seckler (17:39): A minute. Is that all you can say? You said much nicer things about it when you read Jared Correia (17:43): It. I saved it all for the blurb. Steve Seckler (17:45): Ah, Jared Correia (17:46): Okay. I'm spent. It's great. This book is fucking amazing. Buy it tomorrow. Steve Seckler (17:51): Okay, I have to jump in here because this is one of also the themes of the book, which is that I don't really feel comfortable saying this is a great book. I will tell people it's a very good Jared Correia (18:00): Book, let me say it. Steve Seckler (18:01): No, no. I feel like it's distasteful to go around telling people how great you are and it's a very good book. And if you're not comfortable with selling, if you have an aversion to sales, if you're not used to doing it, if you're not really sure where to get started, that's what this book is for. Jared Correia (18:18): I mean, I think that the way you talk about the book, which I respect is sort of like, here's some information that may be useful for you. So I think that's a good baseline. So let's talk a little bit about that. One of the other things you've done in your career is placement basically for attorneys who are looking to get into law firms laterally or moving up the ladder in a law firm. What's the scene right now for jobs for lawyers? Is it a hot marketplace? Are people still moving around regularly? Does that relate back to some of the topics you discussed in the book? Just give me the rundown on that. Steve Seckler (18:58): So my understanding, because I'm not in the legal recruiting marketplace anymore, but the market has cooled down quite a bit, but the economy, there are always winners and losers, and if you're a partner that has a portable practice, then you're in demand. But if you are a senior associate that has no book of business, then you might have a more challenging time finding a job. Jared Correia (19:27): So in terms of advice around business development, which seems very related to job searching, if you're telling me I need a portable book of business to move, are there things that people can glean from the book around that advice on how to do business development in the modern context and tie that back to a job search? Steve Seckler (19:51): Let me first say Jared, that if you don't have a book of business, it's not too late. It's not like your career is over. First of all, a lot of lawyers do want to go and obviously you don't need to book a business to go there, but it's never too late to start building your practice so you can do that. So the tie in between the marketing tools that I have in this book and marketing in general and career advancement and managing your career is that relationship building matters with both. In fact, it also matters with leadership, which is the other area that I coach lawyers on. So learning how to be a good listener, trying to find ways to be helpful, understanding how to add value to relationships, knowing how to stay top of mind. Those are all important if you want to build a practice. But they're also important if you want to advance in your firm or if you're thinking about trying to move to another firm or go in-house. Jared Correia (20:46): Right. Okay. So in terms of business development, are you still seeing people do sort of traditional model where they're going and attending conferences, having a cocktail with somebody, do a ces, making phone call, sending emails, or has new technologies like chat GPT affected that? Has AI done anything eroded the kind of traditional business development model in your mind? Or has it improved it? Steve Seckler (21:18): Well, from my perspective, it's improved it a lot because it makes it much more efficient to create content. But one of the things that hasn't changed at all, and I can't imagine it ever changing, is that we are a business that's driven by relationships. And while writing articles, speaking, getting involved in associations are all reputation building activities. They're not necessarily directly relationship building activities. So there's an expression in marketing that I'm sure you know that marketing supports business development. So you can go to coffee with somebody or you can meet somebody at a function if that's your thing, you can have coffee with them, you could start sending them stuff, but then they might see you without you reaching out to them directly by you showing up on LinkedIn by you sending out a newsletter. Maybe you drop them a cartoon once in a while, or maybe they just see your name that you're speaking at a conference or something. So the ABA is doing a nice job for me and sending out repeatedly notices about this book, which is really, it's a way for me to stay top of mind without me having to constantly reach out to the same people, which you can't really do. Jared Correia (22:32): But I think you've done a nice job of cobbling together a bunch of different things. So you'll do a little bit of content marketing, you'll do various types of content products, you do the biz dev, the traditional stuff, and I find that a lot of attorneys will just select one thing. Do you see that as well, or do you see people mixing it up a little bit as you have? Steve Seckler (22:54): Well, let me say this, I think that what's really important, one of the really important things in marketing is to be authentic. And so the example I like to give is golf. So golf is a great way to build relationships with high level executives in corporations and other wealthy individuals who might be good candidates for legal services. But if you don't like golf, don't play golf. So if you don't like speaking, don't. Jared Correia (23:22): Or if you're terrible at it, Steve Seckler (23:24): Well that could be part of it. Well, actually Jared Correia (23:26): Raising my hand. Steve Seckler (23:26): Oh, you're raising your hand. Okay. I've never played, Jared Correia (23:28): Actually I'm terrible at golf. I'm awful at golf. Steve Seckler (23:31): I've only played miniature golf. But if you like golf, go for it. If those are the kinds of people that you want to be doing business with, I mean you have to be at the right dance. So another one, my Jared Correia (23:45): Roots. Your putting game is strong though I would imagine Steve Seckler (23:48): From golf, I have play all the time, but if you want to marry somebody Jewish, don't hang out at Catholic. Singles Dances is another one of my adages. So know what dance you want to go to. Who do you want to do business with? Who serves those clients? Where can you find them, how can you hang out with them? And then how can you authentically build relationships with them? So I like sending out cartoons, memes. I think I've every so often sent you a stupid dad joke. We can share that, Jared Correia (24:14): Which I love. Keep 'em coming. Steve Seckler (24:16): Yeah, Jared Correia (24:18): I'm a dad joke aficionado. Steve Seckler (24:20): I know. Jared Correia (24:20): I'm always looking to add to my repertoire. Steve Seckler (24:22): Well, I know that that's why I keep sending them to you. Jared Correia (24:26): So I think it's an interesting time to be practicing law for a whole host of reasons. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about senior attorneys because I know you've worked with senior attorneys here and there, our senior attorney's. Like, I don't want to deal with any of this AI bullshit I want out, or are they sort of embracing it? What's the scene with a lawyer who's sort of tail end of the career? Steve Seckler (24:56): I think that there's a huge, huge range. I'm a huge user and consumer of ai. I think the fact that something like chat GPT really acts almost like a search engine that people are already familiar with makes it a lot easier for people to adopt. So I don't think that the fact that technology is changing in that way is making lawyers want to head for the doors as much. I mean, lawyers have a hard time giving up their status as lawyers, and that is one of the areas that I really enjoy coaching lawyers on next stage transitions. So you could think that maybe, okay, I don't want to learn some new technology and there will be different ways of practicing law for sure. As you know, you consult with your clients on this all the time, but I don't think right now it's doing anything other than making things easier In a lot of ways Jared Correia (25:50): I tend to agree. And so you're seeing a lot of adoption, which I think is great. So if you get an older attorney who wants to leave the practice of law and they're so tied up in this identity of being a lawyer, how do you move them off of that? I feel like that must be really difficult to do. Steve Seckler (26:10): It's very difficult to do, but the starting point is trying to get them to identify what are the things they still enjoy about work and what are the things that they'd rather not be doing? A lot of times the things they'd rather not be doing is the nitty gritty, the day-to-day, they don't want to be taking depositions, they don't want to be doing reviewing documents, spending hours looking at mountains of paper and maybe even getting too much into the nitty gritty of a case even if somebody else is doing it. But sometimes they like the supervision. So the first step is figuring out what are the things that still give them joy, still keep them engaged. But the other piece of it, which is very important in terms of making change is helping them think about what are the things that they want to be doing? (26:56): Not what's pushing them away from the law, but what's drawing them. Maybe they've always wanted to do some travel, maybe they have grandchildren. I have a friend who's a master gardener. So there are all kinds of ways to find new things to do in your life. The problem for a lot of senior lawyers is that they haven't spent a lot of time cultivating those interests. And so maybe getting them started on going back to some old interests, getting out and talking to people and basically getting them starting to move on a path where they could start to see a future for themselves doing things that they do want to do. Jared Correia (27:32): So what if you get somebody younger, I dunno if you run into this ever, but I also talked to attorneys who are much younger, thirties, forties, who are like, I'm kind of burnt out. I don't want to do law practice anymore. I think that's almost a different question because it's not like a twilight thing, but you got to think of what's my second career going to be or my new career. Do you ever talk to people in that boat and how do you advise them? Steve Seckler (27:58): I talk to people like that all the time. I mean a lot of the issues are the same. I mean for the senior lawyer, there are all kinds of issues. Again, existentially, you've been doing the same thing for 40 years. There's an expression, David Rosenblatt, the former managing partner of Burns and Levison said to me, which is, and he's now retired in sickness and health, but not for lunch. So a lot of times, and often it's the male who's used to going into work and the wife doesn't want the husband around all the time. Jared Correia (28:33): You're here all the time now. Yeah, Steve Seckler (28:37): I mean that happens during the pandemic and as we know, not just senior lawyers, but everybody that caused either people to grow closer or further apart with a more junior person that has a much longer runway, they're going to have financial needs for the foreseeable future. It's trying to experiment with things. Sometimes it's getting a side hustle to sort of see how that goes for a while, not quitting your day job, so to speak. The starting point is the same though. It's trying to figure out, well, what are the things that you really would like to get away from? And then there are a lot of law adjacent or what we call JD Advantage jobs that don't require a jd, but where a JD can be very helpful. Sometimes if somebody happens to be in a corporation, that's a place where they can make a transition because people already know I can trust them. And now they might allow them to get involved in more of the business side of deals. For example, maybe they might be able to move into HR if they're in a law firm. Sometimes people can transition into marketing, recruiting other functions which are necessary for the functioning of the law firm, but aren't necessarily the practice of law, but where it's helpful to have knowledge of the law to be able to do that job. Jared Correia (29:55): I've never heard that term before, JD Advantage jobs. That's a great way to think of it. I also think sometimes people view it as a negative, like I'm an attorney, people think I'm going to leave and go get the first law job I can find, or I didn't succeed as a lawyer. So I like the way you position that. Steve Seckler (30:11): There are a lot of lawyers doing JD Advantage type jobs. If you think about compliance, for example, compliance is a big area where lawyers who no longer want to practice or maybe never wanted to practice end up getting involved with, it's not the practice of law per se, but being able to read regulations, train people about them, keep the people in the company complying with HR regulations or privacy regulations. It's helpful to be a lawyer, but you don't have to be one. There's a lot of lawyers or people that were trained or went to law school doing those kinds of jobs. Jared Correia (30:49): So I think this stuff you do is relatively unique in the sense that the mix of what you've done historically, you're coaching stuff could be business development. It could be not just business development in the sense of marketing, but growing a business could be related to career transitions. So I've got somebody listening to this who's like, Hey, this sounds good. How would somebody go about picking a coach if they wanted one? What should they be looking for? Steve Seckler (31:21): Well, first they should decide that they're willing to do the work. So a coach is not going to lift the weights for you. A coach may help you figure out what are the obstacles, what are the goals, and then hold you accountable. So first you have to be willing to commit to doing the work. Second thing is finding somebody that where this good personality fit, and most coaches that I know myself included, do free consultations so that we could see if there's good chemistry in both on both sides. Jared Correia (31:49): Yeah, so it sounds like have a conversation, explore it a little bit, see what you think and move forward from there. Steve Seckler (31:56): Yeah. Jared Correia (31:58): Now I always find it interesting because I see people use coaching sometimes and then I see people use consulting. I use consulting in my business. Do you view there as a functional difference or do you think that's very similar? We've talked about this a little bit before, but I don't know if we've done this in the public forum. Steve Seckler (32:18): I think of consulting as somebody comes in, they gather information and then they come back with a report and give advice. Coaching is much more about a partnership between the coachee and the coach. We are thought partners and we're again not doing the work. We're figuring out what's getting in the way of somebody's success and then we're holding them accountable. We're keeping them motivated. Now a lot of us who do coaching may find that there are times where we have knowledge to share. And so I know a lot about marketing. I know a lot about career progression. I know a lot about leadership, so I may make suggestions, but I try very hard not to give people the answer because what I'm trying to effectuate is ongoing change. And if somebody is just told what to do, it's not, it's likely that they're going to follow through. And so there's a poster that I saw that I really love and has a picture of hands across a table and it says, consulting. If you're not part of the solution, there's good money to be made in prolonging the problem. Jared Correia (33:30): I love that. I need that in my background. Steve Seckler (33:35): I mean, that's very cynical and I don't mean that there's no role for consulting. There's totally, absolutely a need for consulting. When people are talking to you, they don't have the sliced idea, for example, with technology. They may not know I want to set up a law practice. I don't know what technology I need and how to go about deciding what to get. And you give them that information Jared Correia (33:57): And that's why you listen to the monologue from this show, which addresses precisely that. Steve, what a perfect segue. Will you stick around for one more section? Steve Seckler (34:07): I absolutely will. Jared, I am a little nervous about it, but I'm here. I'm ready to go. Jared Correia (34:12): That just means you're alive. Hi. No Strip Shaw. I promise. We'll get to that next section in a moment. Come back. Welcome back, everybody. That's right. It's time again for the counter program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Steve, welcome back. How you Steve Seckler (34:43): Doing? Thank you, Darren. Jared Correia (34:44): You emailed me before we were going to record the show this morning and you were like, there are only certain categories of segments that I feel comfortable with, and fortunately I believe I've hit one of those. Oh, great. So I don't know if you remember this, but I do because I'm a sick freak. The last time we had you on the podcast, I was like, Hey, you like James Taylor? I like James Taylor. What's one of your favorite James Taylor deep cuss. And you said, fire and rain. And I was like, that's his most famous sock. Steve Seckler (35:22): Oh God. Jared Correia (35:23): So I want to give you a mulligan on that one. To that end, I am launching what I hope will be a recurring segment with you called Deep Cuts with Steve Eckler 1970s edition. So this allows us to do every decade if we want fifties, eighties. Let me explain to you how we're going to play this. So I'm going to name a very famous album from the 1970s, and all you have to do is to give me your favorite deep cut from that album. To make this easier, I will give my favorite Deep Cut first, which should allow you to Google and look at the track list. Or if you don't like a deep cut on that particular album, you can just tell me one of your favorite songs on the album, which is how we did it before. So feel free to fire up chat, GPT, get the Google Machine going. And if you are ready to go, I'll say the first album and talk about it a little bit. And also, if this album has personal meaning to you or anything else you want to say of interest, you just let me know. Steve Seckler (36:33): All right. We can explore the studio space. As I told you, my memory for trivia is not great. And although the disclaimer is that although I'm turning 65, I still feel young at heart. So it's just a question. Excellent. Having always had a bad memory. This is nothing. This is nothing age related. Jared Correia (36:54): And we can, like I said, Google Chat, GPT. We're ready. Alright, album number one and then I'm going to talk a little bit to buy you some time. Album number one is Rumors by Fleetwood Mac. So Rumors by Fleetwood Mac is a 1977 album. This was a huge hit for Fleetwood Mac. Lots of famous members of Fleetwood Mac who have had pretty impressive solo careers, and I think this album has a ton of great tracks on it. The thing is, most of the songs on this album are already hits, so finding a deep cut is tough. But I have one pick that I like, which I'm going to say, and then I have a runner up, which I'm not going to say because I don't want to take it from you. And then I will also say as we talk about this, one of the things that I find most interesting about Rumors is that Stevie Nicks wrote a song called Silver Springs, which is probably one of the best Fleetwood Max songs that was not included on this album because basically it was about Lindsey Buckingham her ex-boyfriend, and she was just shitting all over him in that song. (38:10): So that's why that song did not made the album. He didn't want to play on it. So my deep cut from Rumors is I don't Want To Know which is the Stevie Nick song, and probably it might even be my favorite song on the album, but it wasn't a hit. And so Steve, have I bought enough time for you to wax Poetic about Rumors? Steve Seckler (38:36): Well, first of all, that is an unbelievably great album. I will give you that. I'm looking at the set list, the Discography, and I'm not seeing anything here that isn't really famous. Jared Correia (38:49): You're like, they're all Steve Seckler (38:50): Heads, go your own way. It's just an amazing song. The Chain is a great song. Yes. Never Going back again. I mean, Jared Correia (38:58): Yes, they're all, I would view that as a little bit of a deep cut. I don't think that's one of the more famous songs on the album. That was actually going to be my runner up Pick. Steve Seckler (39:05): Okay. Alright, well I'll pick that then. Jared Correia (39:07): Beautiful. Let me name the new album and then I will do a little bit of tap dance. The next album, which you may not even need to look up the track list on this one is T for the Tillman by the Great Cat Stevens from 1970. Now if you're like, wow, these guys are talking about some great music, I'm going to put together a Spotify playlist of the songs that Steve and I talk about in this segment. So you can listen to that, you can burn a CD off of it if you wish, but Tifford Tillman is one of my favorite albums of all time, probably I like every track on that album and I've got two kind of deep cuts. They're not like the big, big hits off of that album. And so I'm going to go with a song called, but I Might Die Tonight, which is basically about how much it sucks to have a job. And the kid in the song is talking to an older guy and the guy's like, well, you got to put your nose to the grindstone and work hard. And the response to that is, well, why would I do that? I could die tomorrow. So I want to get everything I can out of my life and not be wedded to a corporate job. Steve, what do you think? Deep Cut or favorite track Steve Seckler (40:28): Off? I'm not going to give you a deep cut because it's just too much for me to come up with, but Miles From Nowhere, miles from Nowhere, it's a great song. Oh my God, Jared Correia (40:38): Are you going to sing a little bit? That'd Steve Seckler (40:39): Be amazing. Well, I don't have my guitar with me, but Wild World. Okay, so here's a funny little anecdote about Wild World, which is that about five years ago when I was starting to think about my next stage, which didn't mean stopping work, I'm not going to do that for quite a while from now, but I picked up a guitar, which I started playing a lot and then the 2020 election came along and I started making phone calls instead. So I haven't played it as much since then, but I was learning Wild World and I just was playing that riff over and over again, driving my wife crazy. And then one day we walked into Ho Depot Jared Correia (41:20): And Steve Seckler (41:20): Guess what song came on? Wild World. She was like, she's like, get me out of here. But Father and Son is a very touching song I'm looking at. That's a good one. I'm looking at the song list here. Are there this many songs? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing. But Jared Correia (41:41): So he released an album called T for the Tillman two, which was basically like the Taylor's versions albums that Taylor Swift came out with. He did the songs over again, rerecorded all the songs, and then they had an expanded edition, but I think there were 11 tracks on the original one. Steve Seckler (42:01): Okay, where did the Children play? That was an amazing song too. There's so many great songs on that album and what's blows my mind is that I was only 10 years old when that album came out and it's just amazing how the brain works. I mean, I hear that music and it just makes me smile. Jared Correia (42:21): Oh yeah. Awesome album. Alright, so next album is going to be Harvest by Neil Young Harvest 1972. And so while you're looking that up, I thought this would probably be Deep Tracks with Jared Korea and then Steve is telling us his favorite song on the album, so that's good. We're in good shape. So Harvest is probably, I mean probably Neil Young's best album, although I also impartial to Harvest Moon, which came out 20 years later in 1992. A lot of great tracks on this album. My deep cut from this one is Out on the Weekend, which is the first song on the album. I think that's just a great song and I think there's a lot of Buried treasure on this album too. My runner up would be A Man Needs a Maid, and then also there are the short songs like Needle in the Damage Done. It's also Great Tune. That was ahead Steve. Thoughts on Harvest Seminal album? I think Steve Seckler (43:27): Another just absolutely terrific album. And I know this was not sung with Crosby Stills Nash, but the four of them together were amazing. But Neil Young as well, and I Harvest Moon, great album, harvest Needle in the Damage Done just a great album, a great song, old Man, heart of Old. I mean I play all these on the guitar actually, I don't play them as well as Neil Young, but Jared Correia (43:55): We'll have to do some outtakes with you. Steve Seckler (43:56): Jimmy Fallon did a really funny impersonation of Neil Young. I dunno if you've ever seen that one. Jared Correia (44:01): Oh no, I don't think I have. Steve Seckler (44:02): Oh yeah, that's really great. Jared Correia (44:06): I dunno if you've ever come across these, but there is a great cover version of Old Man by James McCartney, who's Paul McCartney's son. If you ever have a chance to listen to Steve Seckler (44:17): That, I'll add that to the list. Jared Correia (44:19): And then the Johnny Cash actually does a cover of Heart of Gold on his American recordings series, which is also pretty good. Steve Seckler (44:29): Okay, Jared Correia (44:31): I got two more for you. Wow. Steve Seckler (44:33): Okay, Jared Correia (44:33): So here's another album. I think we both really like. Who's Next by The Who? Oh my God, that is 1971. Oh my God. People have heard me on The Who because we did this as one of our perfect albums, so I don't have to get into great Steve Seckler (44:51): Detail. Listen to Bob O'Reilly's. Just great. I could listen to that song over and over and over again, all seven minutes of it. Yeah, that is just such a great album. I saw, I saw the Who at Fenway Park, I think it was about four or five years ago, and I don't know if they still have it. I mean, there's a lot of aging rockers that are trying to sing into their eighties. These guys were in their seventies and I swear to God, if I were doing what they were doing on stage, I would be in traction. I would be hospitalized. Pete Townsend was whipping his arm around. He was 20 years old. That's funny. Jared Correia (45:36): I'm sure Steve Seckler (45:37): He had ice it when he left the stadium. Jared Correia (45:39): I'm sure he did. Yeah. Just to keep the theme going, my Deep Crash, which people may already know if they listened to fire episodes, loving For Keeping, and then my wife, our two great songs on that album, which aren't as popular as the others. Yeah, my son and I saw Paul McCartney at Fenway a couple years ago and he was like at 80 years old, he was doing stuff that I probably can't do. I would've been sore for days. I was pretty impressed. I've got one more for you. Steve Seckler (46:11): Okay. Jared Correia (46:12): Which is the ultimate redemption track. Sweet Baby James. James Taylor. Steve Seckler (46:17): Okay. Jared Correia (46:18): 1970 album. I'm going to do a longer segment on James Taylor on one of our upcoming shows, but he's my favorite artist of all time. Full Stop. And on this album he's got this song called Sweet for 20 G. That's it, which is Steve Seckler (46:39): I'm in There With You. That's exactly the song I would've chosen. Jared Correia (46:42): Okay. So can you tell people about it then to start with and then I can jump in. Steve Seckler (46:47): Oh God, I Jared Correia (46:48): Don't think a lot of people know this song. Steve Seckler (46:50): Well, this is the only thing I'll say about when I walk along your city streets and look into your eyes. Oh, here we go. Anyway, Jared Correia (47:00): Your wife's going to love this episode, by the way. Steve Seckler (47:02): Just Jared Correia (47:02): Play it on loop. Steve Seckler (47:03): She'll never watch it. Jared Correia (47:06): Sorry. Mine won't either. Steve Seckler (47:08): And anyway, that was the first record album I ever purchased. Sweet, sweet Baby James. Yep. What a choice. Well played. And I've seen James Taylor more than any other artist, although I will say this, he is not the most creative performer in terms of, Jared Correia (47:28): Especially now. I feel like he's just sitting on the stool these days. Steve Seckler (47:33): Yeah, Jared Correia (47:35): And he's good with the dad joke though, I got to say. Steve Seckler (47:38): Okay, Jared Correia (47:41): Sweet. For 20 G is a song I don't think a lot of people have heard about necessarily, and it's a sweet in that it's like three songs that he's mashed it up, but the reason he called it Sweet for 20 G for those listening is he needed one more song on that album to get a $20,000 bonus from his record company. So that's why he called it that he pulled the songs together. Steve Seckler (48:08): Oh, that is hilarious. That's a great piece of trivia. Jared Correia (48:13): A lot of awesome songs on Sweet Baby James that you might not know Blossoms Another a good song anywhere. Heaven's another good song. That's just a great Steve Seckler (48:21): Album. I played steamroller at my wedding, four by wife. Jared Correia (48:24): Really? Steve Seckler (48:25): Yeah. Jared Correia (48:25): Oh man. Man, what an og. I'm impressed. Steamroll is a great song too. Wow. Next time we'll pick another decade, maybe we'll have you bring your guitar on. We'll do a whole thing. Steve Seckler (48:40): Okay. Jared Correia (48:42): Or we won't. Steve, thanks for coming on. It was a lot of fun. Steve Seckler (48:46): Hey, listen, I'm honored you make your podcast episodes so much fun. So I'm just honored that you keep having me back. So thank you so much. Jared Correia (48:56): Yeah, we'll definitely have you back. Thanks again and we'll talk soon. Thanks for our guest, Steve Seckler of SR Attorney Coaching. To learn more about Steve, his coaching practice, visit secr.com. That's S-E-C-K-L-E r.com. secr.com. Now, because I'll always be a nineties kid who watched the Blair Witch Project in the theater. That's true. Whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. This week's playlist is obviously Deep Cuts with Steve Eckler 1970s edition, where you can listen to all or most of the music mentioned in this episode and is sponsored by Bucky's Truck stops. I'm just kidding. By the way, Bucky himself told us to go fuck ourselves through his big ass teeth, but I won't give up. The bathrooms are so clean in there. Join us next time when I talk about more old shit that no one cares about.